I used to have so much respect for Thunderf00t, until I read one of his comments that essentially said. "the state is one of the best tools for reducing violence ever invented". It shows a completely unwillingness to look at the reality.
Thunderf00t is not applying skepticism to the state in the same way he applies it to the church. The state is essentially his church. His institution of worship.
@shanedk Oh, but are those free market regulators run by the government or independently owned? Which are independently owned and which are government owned?
1) The free market is the regulator of the free enterprise/capitalist system, it is not the system itself. When trying to explain to people what market regulation is vs govt regulation, you can't do this without differentiating between the system & the marketplace.
2) Government/political action/law is the initiation of force, always. True free enterprise/capitalism is impossible within a stated society. Your video explains this quite nicely in fact.
@UtubeMyAccountName 1) I disagree; in the free market, they're one and the same, since the free market is just people involved in voluntary exchanges. The market self-regulates, so the regulator and the market are one and the same. Thinking otherwise is what gets people into trouble, since they think they can improve the market by imposing rules on the regulator. But all that does is interfere with the voluntary exchanges that people make every day.
@shanedk 1) No, I agree with you. It's just when discussing regulation of the 'market', I often find it necessary to make a distinction between the market as regulator & the market as an economic system. Otherwise I get caught up in an entirely different discussion.
2) Actually I don't know of a free enterprise purist who believes in an outside force to impose & enforce any rules on the market. As any purist, I believe in contract enforcement within the confines of the marketplace.
@UtubeMyAccountName 2) As I said in the video, true free markets only happen in the complete absence of force, which is unlikely in the real world. Even anarcho-capitalists want some system in place to allow for the defense against the initiation of force. The main difference seems to me to be purely semantic: a libertarian government wouldn't initiate force; an anarcho-capitalist would say that it isn't really a government for that reason.
If I might correct you on that one, anarcho-capitalists want the market to handle defense. Not create an entity outside the market that would handle the defense. That is at least what ancap side of the Mises Institute seem to argue, I'm not completely sure.
@shanedk I see that guitar in the background. I would love for you to do a video (if you haven't done one yet) About your musical influence and what you personally play.
lol What idiots down vote the video? I really appreciate the video! if only high schools taught this! I never learned what it meant by free markets, but I just knew it must be the best.
@abeismain Free markets= money is the force behind free markets, i understand it completely, do you see how he didn't adress how money is a major factor.
@shanedk What do you think of a society without money instead, scientificly literate people? would they be more advanced or less advaced? science works no matter what.
@Tethloach1 "What do you think of a society without money instead, scientificly literate people?"
Barter might have been sufficient for hunter gatherers, but it won't work today. Not sure what writing "scientificly literate people" at the end of that sentence means.
@Tethloach1 free markets? Please say it correctly, free market capitalism. I don't think you learned anything from the video. The guy in the video took his time just for us, just to do us a favor. And you are wrong when you say money is the force behind free market capitalism, because in this very video, the guy says force is absent in the free market capitalism. 2:40
@abeismain He is a good choice but, we can't keep this consumerism going forever it will evetually collapse. Are you in favoure of mindless consumtion and waste.
@abeismain Consumerism> people buying stuff at the lowest prices. it end's at no conclusion people trying to buy to satisfy thiers lifes needs. I was buying stuff that didn,t improve my life in anyway thats also called junk, the stuff i was buying( entertainment $ 1000+) and after a while i relised i was only doing so to escape reality like most Americans.
@Tethloach1 Where did the idea come from? I think it came from the government when it was saying to the public, buying things will improve the economy. So that was a lie, right? We can just ignore and bury the term consumerism. It's a ridiculous idea to bring up. So when you bought stuff you didn't really need, means that you were a victim of that lie, the lie was that buying shit will improve the economy.
Therefore we must get Ron Paul into office, so we can have sound money.
@abeismain The idea of buying stuff has been hyped over the years, and its constantly promted, alot of money is spent into getting people to buy so its obveous they have us right where they want us. George Carlin once siad America= One giant shopping mall from east to west.Voting from RP we should try that option, I am confused in the sence that we coul always be wrong, science is the only method of corecting that, The laws of nature ren't a democracy, good thing most people are ignorant.
@shanedk 1. How long can the free market be sustained? 2. their is one force that is pushing this model = money, its not free market really its capital markets aka capitalism. the funny thing is consumersism is unsustainble, buy buy buy useless junk people don't really need. We can't keep this model forver but i think for another 30 years. the anwers isn't communism, or facsism, or socailism, but instead science and technology.
2. MONEY IS NOT FORCE. Get over it. And buying that "useless junk" is what created the economic wealth that allowed us to make things like the heart transplant and life-alert bracelets.
The free market is the only way you can HAVE science and technology!
@shanedk "forever" hmm... " money not a force" are you sure about that? what happens when you don't have money? what happens when everything depeds on money? you end up dying when. " free market only way to have science an technology" uhh.. bullshit it's been scientificly proven thatmyou don't need money to get people to do what they love, communism fails because people ren't motivated to do meaningless, endless work for low wages, money is the flaw of capitalism, thats the problem.
@johnrainrules No i mean money is motivation, because he siad free markets, and the force behind it all is so primitive. slf sustainablity is what all the smart, enlightened inovaters are alking about, they did a study where money makes inovation woste, they paid students to get A's the alrger the money the more pressure to fail, but they triedit on laborers- the higher the money the more labour was performed. money= pyschical labour, machines will replace human labour.
@Tethloach1 ""money not a force" are you sure about that?"
Absolutely. You have to be some kind of idiot or dogmatist to believe that it is!
"what happens when you don't have money?"
Then you go in search of someone who is willing to give you money in return for satisfying some kind of desire. It's called a "job." Or you start your own business.
@shanedk Free market principle: competition= good products is false. if you believe that than you clearly have a bias. Competition= cheap products true. Cheap products have to systematicly made to brakedown or ware down or else people wont keep buying. Buying should be occasional, or luxury, our lives shouldn't be buy, buy. consumersism isn't a positive, its a bad habbit. I was a constantly buying stuff i didn't need and i was a libertairain. capitlism= big Gov= cronyism= fail.
@utubehayter The best most sientificly advanced products at the cheapest can't happen, corperations can make proucts that last long. will find you some links if your convinced they can't build. No i don't want to dictate what others do no way, if peope want to keep buying let them do so, the problem with the Sub Sahar is it's not based on science and technology, and self sstianablitity. We can live in a more scientific society, with resource menage ment, using curent technology
There is one good thing about the venus project. I attracts all the ignorant people and makes them wear an identification badge of being such with joy and pride.
@utubehayter free market only works assuming thier is no waste and an infinite amount of resources. I want you to think about the concept of money! money can't inovate i will have to find you the links since you appearently don't have time to search it. a more scientificly advance society with cooperation, could have labour handle by machines along with service work, machines out perform humans in every way- the sub sahara dosn't offer that. Getting scientific society will be hard.
@utubehayter As of right now there is no perfect society. You can't claim USA when you havent been every where else. I was talking about possible options but lets look at the curent situation. 1. Poverty kills 2. war creates wealth3. crime creates jobs 4. politics cratse the illusion of choice 5.mainstream media has bais6. 15 trill debt 7. unemployment 9-20% so yea status quo only works for the very few. We are more likely to destroy ourselves then make a better society.
No one claimed USA is a perfect society. One the other hand, the USA and capitalist west is where true poverty is almost unknown. WAR DOES NOT create wealth. Crimes do not create jobs, only victims. Politics is an illusion of choice if you believe in it to begin with.
Also, FYI, There is no WE! You can destroy yourself by believing in bad ideas like politics or Venus project style communism with robots.
So, are you willing to admit to being a Venus Projector?
@utubehayter reffer me to this venus project? You have to stop being dogmatic science fucking works its about time we apply it to all ideas to see if they hold up scrutiny. Comunism, capitlism, facism, socailism, anarchy, oligarchy, monachy arne'nt the only fucking options we have to pick the best way of oing things energy effecient and waste reductive along with resouce availability.
@utubehayter "crimes do not create jobs" Drug wars, war on drugs, all those cops hired to crack down on drug dealers and drug users, believe me that creates a lot of jobs. I was a libertarian even thou Im not anymore i still think RP will improve a lot of stuff= War on drugs doesn't work for the people, I think peace is better than war so RP is good even thou i am no longer a libertarain or subsrice to the Austrain Economics.
Yes because the free market declared the "war on drugs", don't you know it? Also Cops = free market?
You wouldn't know Austrian economics if it bit you in the ass.. or science for that matter. Just go back to Peter Joseph give him all your money and wait for the Venus project. You deserve to be scammed.
@Tethloach1 "a lot of jobs" Check out the broken window fallacy.
"was a libertarian even thou Im not anymore" Then you didn't get it. You cannot unsee the truth and I don't believe you understood the NAP (the basis for libertarianism) then decided to go with violence, instead.
@thinkchip I didn't get it?? lol haha i understand it very well, limited government right along with austrain economics? NAP is awsome, the thing is you have to asume that all resources are infinite and consumerism doen't destroy us.
@Tethloach1 If you understood it AT ALL, then you would know the ONLY jobs that came as a result of the War on Drugs--or ANY OTHER GOVERNMENT PROGRAM--came at the expense of jobs in the private market.
"the thing is you have to asume that all resources are infinite"
Nope, you NEVER understood it, because the BASIC PRINCIPLES are that resources are FINITE while desires are infinite.
You're like a creaitonist saying "I was once a Darwinist until..."
@shanedk Don't get me wrong we should still test the principle since i believe in the non agression principle. When i was talking about those things i wanted to throw some critcism out there, Government run stuff are pretty bad, The thing is i understand the basic principles of labour to money a lot better now because i did the calcualtions. How do we get the free market into everyday life with the curent system? Do you know any books by Adam Smith. You have a very good point.
@thinkchip umm.. consumerism, people buying stuff that they don't really need, i was a consumer my self a big consumer, buying useless stuff that didn't benefit me or change my life in the least- expensive sports shoes, expensive entertainment, junk food, long out of style t-shirts as a consumer satisfaction was down dissapointment was up, a lot of people are consumers, because advertisements work. infinite resources= infinite consumerism.
@Tethloach1 "consumerism, people buying stuff that they don't really need"
Who says they don't need it? Isn't that for them to decide for themselves? Or do you have some idea that other people should be able to tell them how to live their lives?
@shanedk "consumerism" people have the impression that if they buy more stuff they will be happier, according to the studies i have seen it's falsel. Yes it is for them to decide. Nobody should tell you how to live your life.
@shanedk You know what, lets just do nothing hope things turn out fine, let's all imagine that their is no waste, lets imagine pollution is a myth, along with toxic waste etc. well were would we be as a society? Global warming is probably a myth but even if it wasn't i personaly don't care, I care more about productivity= produce the best tech to improve life for as many people as possible. Since waste doesn't exist = the economy must be very efficient right! Crony capitalism hmm...
@Tethloach1 "You know what, lets just do nothing hope things turn out fine, let's all imagine that their is no waste, lets imagine pollution is a myth, along with toxic waste etc. well were would we be as a society?"
Straw man since Shane proposed nothing of the sort.
"global warming is probably a myth but even if it wasn't i personaly don't care,"
@shanedk For instance I think religion is bad, in the sence that it has a negative influence on a lot of people. Nobody really needs religion to be a good person, but since i undertsand that they have to let go of it on thier own. I wouldn't want to tell anyone how to live thier life because, that would make me a hypocrite. I am just a person who wants the best for all of us, Words are pretty funny someone can get the wrong message depending on how you ue them. solutions to problems.
@johnrainrules What are you talking about? are you saying that I am telling people how to live their lives? if thats what your saying, one your not suppose to listen to anyone who tells you anything, and also if i told you not to kill yourself and you did it anyway, or not to hit your child but you did it anyway your still living your life the way you want to, if i show concern you don't have to listen. aldo dont put words in peoples mouth.
@Tethloach1 "What are you talking about? are you saying that I am telling people how to live their lives"
Yes, you like to use the Royal we. It didn't work out so well for the French Monarchy.
"if i show concern you don't have to listen. aldo dont put words in peoples mouth."
When your suggesting eliminating things like money and changing the way "we" produce things you are suggesting using force on people, as you did yesterday.
@Tethloach1 Ok. I don't believe peoples desires for stuff is infinite. As folks move up on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, they need less and less.
Resources are, of course, not unlimited and without the state throwing the pricing mechanism way out of whack. as things become more scarce (reduced supply) prices would rise and discourage further consumption.
@Tethloach1 I agree. How awesome is it that the false left vs. right, dem vs. rep and all the other false dichotomies are falling and people are realizing that they have so much in common and that cooperation and peaceful problem solving is the way to go?
@thinkchip its great the internet is a huge part of that along with social net working like, Youtube, facebook, twitter. I am interested in starting a website, i think its a really great iea, I want to know the cost of starting a website, and find a good web designer. If my idea works as i see it than a lot of popes lives can be made easier.
@thinkchip We have to consider the waste, i am not one of those hippies who hugs trees but we should consider the trash we throw out, all of the electronic equipment that we throw out, the internet and buying digital stuff is the least waste full but still we need more efficient energy, considring the thought of pollution we should assume, also im not going to advocate that you recycle or anything but we need a smarter society that is capable of overcoming mass consumerism.
@Tethloach1 I fully agree that we should use the wonderful resources of this planet as smartly and lightly as possible. For me, the way I think this could be best achieved is by stopping the state from shielding polluters and other jerks from the consequences of their damage with things like the corporate veil.
How can you live off the land when all the land is owned by someone else already.
Property rights are tyranny. This solution is no better than the State, and indeed, is the very reason the State has come to exist; protecting the property of rich people from the poor folk who would 'steal' it from them.
It's like listening to someone saying that if we only believe in Jesus, that everything will be better!
The monetary serfdom of the WORLD WORKING CLASS in a politically manipulated market system of artificial scarcity is the template of our common alienation,exploitation and suffering. Capitalism is historically outdated and a tyrannical imposition for minority private gain. A democratic,conscious, majority movement for a world of cooperation for our common needs and well being expressing our creative energies in a MONEYLESS,CLASSSLESS,STATELESS COMMUNITIES OF HUMNAITY
No minimum wage laws? Only someone who has not worked for the minimum wage could say that. You can barely live on a minimum wage, why on earth would you work for less than that??!
@gustjorodedheo I've worked for MW. And most small businessmen like me end up bringing in LESS than MW if you compare the money we take in to the hours we put in our businesses.
In other words, go fuck yourself, you ignorant presumptuous spoiled brat!
@shanedk I'm working for minimum wage now, and can barely afford rent for a single bedroom and bills. And this is while going to school. So go fuck yourself. I can't believe that you chose to respond to my sincere statement by cussing me out. You are a complete jackass, and only blemish the reputation of libertarianism. Also, go fuck your mother, you cuntsucker.
@gustjorodedheo I responded to your statement by saying what a presumptuous asshole you are. You CAN make it on MW or less. LOTS of people do it. You just don't want to make the necessary lifestyle choices.
@gustjorodedheo Tell you what: YOU try running a small business and putting in 60 hours a week and making less than what MW workers do in 40, while being a single dad with 2 kids, one of them autistic. And then see how YOU react to some know-nothing snot-nosed jagoff who comes in and tries to talk YOU down just because you gave some factual information that didn't jive with his pathetic Marxist dogma.
@gustjorodedheo Oh, and by the way, the reason small businessmen like me make so little is because of YOUR PRECIOUS FUCKING GOVERNMENT. So once again, fuck you and your elitist entitlement-minded dogma.
Maybe one day when you grow up and experience what life is REALLY like you'll look back on this and see what an asshole you've been.
@shanedk Yeah, you know exactly who I am, huh? I'm a libertarian, jackass, and excuse me for objecting to YOUR political dogma. The appropriate response was "I disagree with your comment. It is possible to live off of minimum wage. Here is some links you might find useful:..." Not your assvomit that you spewed at me. And I hardly call accruing massive debt "making it" on minimum wage or less. Both of my parents worked for minimum wage, and it was difficult to live, but we did.
My comment was that it would be impossible to live off of less than that. It's called a minimum wage for a reason. But it's bad because a governing body put it into effect. Are you sure you're a libertarian and not an anarchist?? Not all governmental laws are bad, including those that tell businesses they can and cannot do certain things. Once again, your lack of humility or decency leaves much to be desired. Who knows how many people you're turning off of free marketism with your actions.
@gustjorodedheo "My comment was that it would be impossible to live off of less than that. It's called a minimum wage for a reason."
These decisions are made by politicians, NOT based on any sound economics. The sound economics--as demonstrated over and over again--is that MW does NOT raise wages of lower-income people, just make it ILLEGAL FOR THEM TO HAVE A JOB. And it hurts minorities disproportionately.
And how DARE you accuse ME of a lack of humility with the way YOU'VE behaved???
@shanedk So, let's say I make less than MW (which in California is $8.00), let's say $6.00/hour. My rent for a 1 bedroom in a bad neighborhood a mile from my university is $545/month. Average electric bill: $20.00. Phone: $45.00. Internet: $35.00 Total credit payments: $85.00 month minimum. Food: $120.00/month. Expenses: $850. Income: (a whole 40 hours/week, which I don't get, as I go to school): $240. Monthly debt: $610. How is this good for any worker?? There is not incentive to work under MW.
@gustjorodedheo Using your figures, you'd be making $12,000 a year (assuming 2 weeks unpaid vacation). Taking your expenses at face value (not counting your bogus entry for credit payments), your annual expenses are $9,180, meaning at $6/hr you have a SURPLUS of $2,820, or $235 a month (while enjoying your high-speed internet).
You're either a bungling imbecile (which would explain your financial situation) or an outright liar (which would explain your behavior here).
How on earth did you arrive at that number? My math: $6/hour x 40 hours/week x...whoops I forgot to put in 4 or 5 weeks...x 12 months= big error. See, I'm not afraid to admit I make mistakes. :P But I still think my argument stands. Which is not if MW laws are a good or bad thing, but that there is a minimum wage of which below it is not worth working for. So...according to you, would it then be wrong for a governing body of some sort to enact a MW law based on that number? If no, then why not?
@shanedk Labor contracts shouldn't have any special legislative restrictions that other contracts wouldn't have. The only other contracts I know of that have price floors imposed on them are explicitly there to protect some government-sanctioned enterprise (like the post office or the LCBO stores here in Ontario) from competition. (There's a minimum of a few times the postage rate for some things courier companies carry, allegedly to protect against 'overcharging' for carriage.)
@evensgrey So, teachers shouldn't be licensed? And other sundry things like that? Because most professionals and technicians are licensed, which does require "special legislation" of some sorts, and often even private organizations which police their own members, to some extent. Also price controls are different than wage controls.
@gustjorodedheo "Because most professionals and technicians are licensed"
Bullshit. No government licensed me. And most professions that are licensed end up like cosmetologists or cab drivers, where you have to essentially buy a license from your competitors for the privilege of starting your own business.
If you think government licensing is any measure of quality, just look at most of the people driving.
@gustjorodedheo Yes, that's why there's such a hideous shortage of them and one big reason why health care costs are so high. The AMA artificially restricts the number of new doctors licensed so they can continue to demand ridiculously-high salaries.
@shanedk So...would you let me give you open heart surgery, then? I am unlicensed, but I'm sure I'm a great doctor. No one has ever complained about my practice. No one alive, anyway.
@gustjorodedheo "So...would you let me give you open heart surgery, then?"
Not unless you show me your medical degree and tell me where you practice so I can check up on you.
Yes, we're all a bunch of stupid, helpless little morons who need government licensing to tell if someone's a real doctor, we don't have any way of doing it, and we're all so idiotic that we need government to tell us. Or maybe that's just you.
@shanedk You at least have a college degree of some sort yes? A degree is one way in which to show that a person you're considering to engage in with economically is competent...
@shanedk "Every libertarian platform"?? I'm not one to sell my soul to an ideology. "Libertarian" is the label that fits me the best, but it by no means explains my entire views. I'm not in love with MW wage laws. But I recognize the reasons why they were enacted. Like it or not, it is impossible to flourish on MW, even living frugally, you only subsist. That's why there's a high turnover rate for MW wage jobs: people find better paying jobs and bail.
@gustjorodedheo "But I recognize the reasons why they were enacted"
They were enacted so it would be harder for small businesses and startups to compete with big corporations. Why do you think those big corporations lobby hard FOR minimum wage increases?
"Like it or not, it is impossible to flourish on MW, even living frugally, you only subsist."
@shanedk My math was less bogus than mistaken, and we both forgot to subtract payroll taxes.And you still haven't addressed my most fundamental assertion: that there is a wage that if one were to work for any less would make having that job and spending your time and labor meaningless. E.g., there is in fact a minimum wage, even if the government set one is "too high". E.g., while it may profit you the business owner to contract workers for $3.50/hour, it would not be worth my effort in exchange
I didn't! I pointed out that you would GET BACK the maximum Earned Income Credit. You WOULDN'T pay taxes; you would GET MONEY.
Wages are set by voluntary agreement between employer and employee. If you make a bad deal, you have to live with the consequences of your own actions. You do NOT get to destroy jobs of the poor and the minorities to do it!
@shanedk How is one to know what a good wage is? How is the contracting process an equal one? I think there is a fundamental power difference between an employer and someone seeking a means of income. I.e., in order to work, and short of other options, a person will consent to a bad deal just to survive.
@gustjorodedheo It is unequal: the employer is completely at the mercy of the pool of employees he needs to keep his business going. If they all leave, they can all get other jobs, but he loses his life savings.
Greedy, selfish, elitist Marxist assholes like to turn that around...
@shanedk Ok, I'll give you that, as it's not essential to the discussion, but you still haven't answered the question: what is a fair wage, and how are people (employers, employees) to know? Also, I'm curious as to your opinions of employee-owned businesses, and of businesses designed to be "boss-less", run instead by pods of collaborating employees, who vote on every decision.
@evensgrey LOLz. Yeah, I'm not a libertarian at all. Thank the Gods that someone from the libertarian purity police has arrived. I guess I'm voting for Ron Paul because I'm secretly a communist. Your proclivity towards moral indictments on no evidence gives me reason to believe that your one of the christian nazi fundamentalists that I grew up surrounded by. Well, you know what your book says about lying...and about masturbation, but go fuck yourself anyways.
@gustjorodedheo You can't jump in right off the bat with long-discredited Marxist rhetoric, defending one of the pillars of socialism that NO libertarian supports, and then claim to be a libertarian and then whine when you're called on it.
Oh, and BTW, I'm an atheist, and unless I'm mistaken evensgrey is, too.
@shanedk Indeed I am an atheist. That doesn't stop me from following a religious tradition, but it's one that doesn't need to have any gods in it. (Some people include a god, and the originators did, but there's nothing in it that NEEDS a god, or an afterlife, or anything like that.)
@shanedk My dogma? I was being obnoxious because he was. Gods. And Christianity is quite similar to fascism. I should know: I grew up in it. And I'm confused with evensgrey's statement. It sounds like he took an established religion, kept its ethos and pathos and subtracted whatever deities. Perhaps he'd like to expound upon that, or correct me. Either way, I'm curious...
@shanedk There is a multitude of variations within libertarianism. And it is possible to be a socialistic libertarian. It's called something along the lines of communalism, local minarchism, or my own sort of term: borderline anarchy.
@gustjorodedheo If you knew anything at all about it, you'd know that libertarianism is fundamentally individualist while socialist is fundamentally collectivist. They're MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE!!!
@shanedk I disagree. I think that yes, libertarianism is individualistic, and communism, or other forms of communalism are collective, but I think that with socialism, there is a bit of room to wriggle in as per its application. And my concerns all have to do with ensuring that the rights of the individual (which then migrate upwards into organized bodies, or "localities") are respected. I do not think that anarchistic tendencies respect peoples rights, but remove them.
Or at least is not a sufficient respecter of individual rights. Governments of various forms naturally arise ad hoc from individuals collectivizing for the common good.
Free Market is an ideology where the elite ruling/ owning class compel the majority working men and women into financial serfdom of the wage slavery. Free Market is a myth a lie and the devaluation of all and everything. FUCK CAPITALISM
@Ravengaurd6 I am a working man , a human being who is aware and conscious of the tyranny of world capitalism. dont label yourself or any one as labels have either commercial use value or ideological dogmas to perpetuate the closure of minds.
@arzoyan Free marketism and capitalism are not the same thing. Capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production, whereas free marketism is the unhindered exchange of goods in an economic market. A free market can be capitalistic, socialistic, communalistic, etc. I think that avoiding wage slavery is a necessary thing in a free society, but I can't speak for all libertarians on the matter. In a truly free market, people could make the decision as to how best live and work.
@gustjorodedheo "Free marketism"? If you have to make up terms to make your point you may as well leave now.
A free market CANNOT be socialist or communist (even if you DO make up different words for those). And if you even use the term "wage slavery" like it has any genuine meaning at all then you're NOT a libertarian and NOT a free marketeer in ANY WAY. You speak for NO libertarians AT ALL.
@shanedk Free markets can theoretically exist in an equally theoretical socialist or communist state. Obviously as no system has endured as strictly self-governing on a local scale (the ideals of Marxism) it has been squashed by strong centralized governments, which were of course presumed to be necessary before a society could transition away from governments.
@arzoyan Perhaps you could elaborate upon how my words have no substance to the discussion at hand? And what do you think the correct discussion should then be?
@gustjorodedheo The word free and market is a contradiction in terms , just as CAPITAL enslaves and exploites WAGE LABOR . The dynamics of World Capitalism whether Corporate dominated or State dictated is the abstract PROCESS of CAPITAL ACCUMULATION and CONCENTRATION. This abstract process is not smooth or linear but DESTRUCTIVE and enforced by MILLITARY MIGHT. The INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION was underpinned by built up of the BRITISH NAVY and US DOLLAR by world wide millitary bases . more to F
The problem.... The market is not "FREE". The type of capitalism we have today is some mutation. While your version of the free market is correct. It is simply a theory. You mentioned Adam Smith - LOL 1892... Was that the last time we had this free market? How long til JP Morgan got a hold of it?
what do you think about Mike Gravel's national initiative idea?..if you're not aware of it, it's basically giving citizens the power to make laws..sounds to me like a good method of stopping corporatism..why would citizens write laws favoring corporations, ya know?
@shanedk I'd say that you're both right in that corporatism functions off the basics of capitalism, but with government regulation. So, its like an offshoot of capitalism, but against the ideals of capitalism
Another disciple of Friedman's ridiculous prose. Thank God John Maynard Keynes had solutions to fix the broken system created by Milton Friedman's ridiculous ideas in 2008. All of Friedman's conclusions are based in an obfuscation of history and assumptions (you will not find a bibliography in Freedom and Capitalism). Small businesses, with licenses, and a customer base are regularly railroaded by giant corporations. What about Walmart's impact? Who do you think small business are scared of?
@jujuandjesus Oh boy, another dogmatist. Exactly which of Friedman's policies do you think were in place prior to 2008? (Hint: if you use the word "deregulation" I and others here are going to laugh in your face...)
Emzyk that's bullshit. History has shown no such thing, I guess FACT it's shown the opposite. In the past government has only passed regulations as changes were already on the move. The govt then takes credit. It's horseshit.
"I like the way John Stossel put it: 'Government is like someone who jumps in front of a parade and pretends to be leading it.'"
I find the same applies to religion. How many Creationists have you had commenting on your biology videos blathering about how "Christianity invented morality" or "How can you be moral without God?" etc? Last I checked, Religion didn't invent morality.
Is the free market good for America? Does it have a good or bad effect to big company or industries like Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Google, Apple's, and others.
@Timb0NZ Because they don't like that South Carolina is a right-to-work state and the board is largely made up of union members. That's the ONLY reason.
@shanedk Austrian schoolar falsely accused neoclassical utility theory of assuming cardinality. It does not. There is nothing actually wrong with Rothbard's value scale approach, but because the neoclassical assumptions are in some ways less restrictive than Rothbard's, neoclassicals made the important discovery that price changes have both income and substitution effects - a discovery Rothbard was unable to grasp.The Austrians are unabel handle facts the way Milton Friedman did.
Thunderf00t is an elitist (he knows what is best for you) and I am ashamed to come from the same country as him.
Keep up the good videos Shane! Free-market economics for the consumer (not those bastardly producers)!
GalacticMuppet 26 minutes ago in playlist Economic Basics
Very enjoyable thank you
thegeffc 2 days ago
you have some great stuff here
osclarkos 5 days ago
some really good stuff here
willbirful 1 week ago
Statheists are the worst kind of statists.
I used to have so much respect for Thunderf00t, until I read one of his comments that essentially said. "the state is one of the best tools for reducing violence ever invented". It shows a completely unwillingness to look at the reality.
Thunderf00t is not applying skepticism to the state in the same way he applies it to the church. The state is essentially his church. His institution of worship.
KyleSkullz 1 week ago
This is a "violet" video. =p
acharylee77z 2 weeks ago
OH!!! So we don't need GOVERNMENT regulations!! THE PEOPLE are the regulators!?
abeismain 2 weeks ago
@abeismain There are LOTS of free market regulators: UL, IEEE, ISO...
shanedk 2 weeks ago
@shanedk Oh, but are those free market regulators run by the government or independently owned? Which are independently owned and which are government owned?
abeismain 2 weeks ago
@abeismain All of the ones I mentioned are independent of government.
shanedk 2 weeks ago
Shane like your video, but:
1) The free market is the regulator of the free enterprise/capitalist system, it is not the system itself. When trying to explain to people what market regulation is vs govt regulation, you can't do this without differentiating between the system & the marketplace.
2) Government/political action/law is the initiation of force, always. True free enterprise/capitalism is impossible within a stated society. Your video explains this quite nicely in fact.
UtubeMyAccountName 2 weeks ago
@UtubeMyAccountName 1) I disagree; in the free market, they're one and the same, since the free market is just people involved in voluntary exchanges. The market self-regulates, so the regulator and the market are one and the same. Thinking otherwise is what gets people into trouble, since they think they can improve the market by imposing rules on the regulator. But all that does is interfere with the voluntary exchanges that people make every day.
shanedk 2 weeks ago
@shanedk 1) No, I agree with you. It's just when discussing regulation of the 'market', I often find it necessary to make a distinction between the market as regulator & the market as an economic system. Otherwise I get caught up in an entirely different discussion.
2) Actually I don't know of a free enterprise purist who believes in an outside force to impose & enforce any rules on the market. As any purist, I believe in contract enforcement within the confines of the marketplace.
UtubeMyAccountName 2 weeks ago
@UtubeMyAccountName 2) As I said in the video, true free markets only happen in the complete absence of force, which is unlikely in the real world. Even anarcho-capitalists want some system in place to allow for the defense against the initiation of force. The main difference seems to me to be purely semantic: a libertarian government wouldn't initiate force; an anarcho-capitalist would say that it isn't really a government for that reason.
shanedk 2 weeks ago
@shanedk
If I might correct you on that one, anarcho-capitalists want the market to handle defense. Not create an entity outside the market that would handle the defense. That is at least what ancap side of the Mises Institute seem to argue, I'm not completely sure.
Finlandcitizen 2 weeks ago
I watched this video and wanted to high five you.
raltaki 2 weeks ago
@shanedk I see that guitar in the background. I would love for you to do a video (if you haven't done one yet) About your musical influence and what you personally play.
atchisrj1 2 weeks ago
This is a great summery about how the free market works and how government mucks it up. :)
LiberAnarchy 2 weeks ago
I didn't know you played music?
fiddleman31 2 weeks ago
@fiddleman31 Yep, ReverbNationDOTcom/ShaneKillian
shanedk 2 weeks ago
Cosmetology license.... What a joke.
Clausfarre 2 weeks ago
lol What idiots down vote the video? I really appreciate the video! if only high schools taught this! I never learned what it meant by free markets, but I just knew it must be the best.
Ron Paul 2012 for free market!!
abeismain 2 weeks ago
@abeismain Free markets= money is the force behind free markets, i understand it completely, do you see how he didn't adress how money is a major factor.
Tethloach1 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1 Money is NOT force; GOVERNMENT is. Money is a store of value and a medium of exchange.
shanedk 2 weeks ago
@shanedk What do you think of a society without money instead, scientificly literate people? would they be more advanced or less advaced? science works no matter what.
Tethloach1 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1 "What do you think of a society without money instead, scientificly literate people?"
Barter might have been sufficient for hunter gatherers, but it won't work today. Not sure what writing "scientificly literate people" at the end of that sentence means.
"would they be more advanced or less advaced? "
Less, hence the hunter-gatherer reference.
"science works no matter what."
Uh, what?
johnrainrules 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1 Then how come it didn't until we got the idea of individual liberty? Why was it only then that it took off?
shanedk 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1 free markets? Please say it correctly, free market capitalism. I don't think you learned anything from the video. The guy in the video took his time just for us, just to do us a favor. And you are wrong when you say money is the force behind free market capitalism, because in this very video, the guy says force is absent in the free market capitalism. 2:40
You voting Ron Paul?
abeismain 2 weeks ago
@abeismain He is a good choice but, we can't keep this consumerism going forever it will evetually collapse. Are you in favoure of mindless consumtion and waste.
Tethloach1 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1 What we have now isn't consumerism; it's government-driven bubbles.
shanedk 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1 consumerism is a very confusing concept, which i don't understand. Did you learn what is consumerism?
Ron Paul is most credible person to be the next president.
abeismain 2 weeks ago
@abeismain Consumerism> people buying stuff at the lowest prices. it end's at no conclusion people trying to buy to satisfy thiers lifes needs. I was buying stuff that didn,t improve my life in anyway thats also called junk, the stuff i was buying( entertainment $ 1000+) and after a while i relised i was only doing so to escape reality like most Americans.
Tethloach1 2 weeks ago
Comment removed
abeismain 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1 Where did the idea come from? I think it came from the government when it was saying to the public, buying things will improve the economy. So that was a lie, right? We can just ignore and bury the term consumerism. It's a ridiculous idea to bring up. So when you bought stuff you didn't really need, means that you were a victim of that lie, the lie was that buying shit will improve the economy.
Therefore we must get Ron Paul into office, so we can have sound money.
abeismain 2 weeks ago
@abeismain The idea of buying stuff has been hyped over the years, and its constantly promted, alot of money is spent into getting people to buy so its obveous they have us right where they want us. George Carlin once siad America= One giant shopping mall from east to west.Voting from RP we should try that option, I am confused in the sence that we coul always be wrong, science is the only method of corecting that, The laws of nature ren't a democracy, good thing most people are ignorant.
Tethloach1 2 weeks ago
It's amazing how many people can't understand this concept. I point people to your video all the time. Very educating.
oOo0Chase0oOo 2 weeks ago
@oOo0Chase0oOo Thank you!
shanedk 2 weeks ago
@shanedk 1. How long can the free market be sustained? 2. their is one force that is pushing this model = money, its not free market really its capital markets aka capitalism. the funny thing is consumersism is unsustainble, buy buy buy useless junk people don't really need. We can't keep this model forver but i think for another 30 years. the anwers isn't communism, or facsism, or socailism, but instead science and technology.
Tethloach1 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1 1. Forever.
2. MONEY IS NOT FORCE. Get over it. And buying that "useless junk" is what created the economic wealth that allowed us to make things like the heart transplant and life-alert bracelets.
The free market is the only way you can HAVE science and technology!
shanedk 2 weeks ago
@shanedk "forever" hmm... " money not a force" are you sure about that? what happens when you don't have money? what happens when everything depeds on money? you end up dying when. " free market only way to have science an technology" uhh.. bullshit it's been scientificly proven thatmyou don't need money to get people to do what they love, communism fails because people ren't motivated to do meaningless, endless work for low wages, money is the flaw of capitalism, thats the problem.
Tethloach1 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1 "money not a force" are you sure about that? "
Yes, with voluntary exchange you can choose not to make a sale.
"what happens when you don't have money? what happens when everything depeds on money? you end up dying when. "
Wait until your vague moneyless society gets tried, then you'll see dead people.
johnrainrules 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1 "bullshit it's been scientificly proven thatmyou don't need money to get people to do what they love"
Yes, however people watching Lesbian Pornography isn't going to feed people.
"money is the flaw of capitalism, thats the problem."
Money predates capitalism, and it is hard to have capital without money.
johnrainrules 2 weeks ago
@johnrainrules No i mean money is motivation, because he siad free markets, and the force behind it all is so primitive. slf sustainablity is what all the smart, enlightened inovaters are alking about, they did a study where money makes inovation woste, they paid students to get A's the alrger the money the more pressure to fail, but they triedit on laborers- the higher the money the more labour was performed. money= pyschical labour, machines will replace human labour.
Tethloach1 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1 "No i mean money is motivation,"
So you're opposed to motivation? When we say force we mean actually forcing people to do things. Free as in free market is the opposite of that.
"and the force behind it all is so primitive"
To call something primitive you must show something more advanced that gives better results.
"they paid students to get A's the alrger the money the more pressure to fail,"
Not a fan of scholarships are you.
johnrainrules 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1 ""money not a force" are you sure about that?"
Absolutely. You have to be some kind of idiot or dogmatist to believe that it is!
"what happens when you don't have money?"
Then you go in search of someone who is willing to give you money in return for satisfying some kind of desire. It's called a "job." Or you start your own business.
Unless you want to just live off the land.
shanedk 2 weeks ago
@shanedk Free market principle: competition= good products is false. if you believe that than you clearly have a bias. Competition= cheap products true. Cheap products have to systematicly made to brakedown or ware down or else people wont keep buying. Buying should be occasional, or luxury, our lives shouldn't be buy, buy. consumersism isn't a positive, its a bad habbit. I was a constantly buying stuff i didn't need and i was a libertairain. capitlism= big Gov= cronyism= fail.
Tethloach1 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1
"competition= good products is false"
Evidence please.
"systematicly made to brakedown or ware down or else people wont keep buying. "
Do you know of anything that does not breakdown? or wear down?
"Buying should be occasional, or luxury, our lives shouldn't be buy, buy."
Who the hell are you to determine for other people, that buying should be occasional? or luxury?
FYI, that kind of society exists in sub-saharan Africa living hand to mouth. Feel free to join them.
utubehayter 2 weeks ago
@utubehayter The best most sientificly advanced products at the cheapest can't happen, corperations can make proucts that last long. will find you some links if your convinced they can't build. No i don't want to dictate what others do no way, if peope want to keep buying let them do so, the problem with the Sub Sahar is it's not based on science and technology, and self sstianablitity. We can live in a more scientific society, with resource menage ment, using curent technology
Tethloach1 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1
Let me guess the Venus Project?!
There is one good thing about the venus project. I attracts all the ignorant people and makes them wear an identification badge of being such with joy and pride.
utubehayter 2 weeks ago
@utubehayter free market only works assuming thier is no waste and an infinite amount of resources. I want you to think about the concept of money! money can't inovate i will have to find you the links since you appearently don't have time to search it. a more scientificly advance society with cooperation, could have labour handle by machines along with service work, machines out perform humans in every way- the sub sahara dosn't offer that. Getting scientific society will be hard.
Tethloach1 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1
Bull crap. Completely making up bullshit because you cannot think, is not an argument.
utubehayter 2 weeks ago
@utubehayter As of right now there is no perfect society. You can't claim USA when you havent been every where else. I was talking about possible options but lets look at the curent situation. 1. Poverty kills 2. war creates wealth3. crime creates jobs 4. politics cratse the illusion of choice 5.mainstream media has bais6. 15 trill debt 7. unemployment 9-20% so yea status quo only works for the very few. We are more likely to destroy ourselves then make a better society.
Tethloach1 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1
No one claimed USA is a perfect society. One the other hand, the USA and capitalist west is where true poverty is almost unknown. WAR DOES NOT create wealth. Crimes do not create jobs, only victims. Politics is an illusion of choice if you believe in it to begin with.
Also, FYI, There is no WE! You can destroy yourself by believing in bad ideas like politics or Venus project style communism with robots.
So, are you willing to admit to being a Venus Projector?
utubehayter 2 weeks ago
@utubehayter reffer me to this venus project? You have to stop being dogmatic science fucking works its about time we apply it to all ideas to see if they hold up scrutiny. Comunism, capitlism, facism, socailism, anarchy, oligarchy, monachy arne'nt the only fucking options we have to pick the best way of oing things energy effecient and waste reductive along with resouce availability.
Tethloach1 2 weeks ago
@utubehayter "crimes do not create jobs" Drug wars, war on drugs, all those cops hired to crack down on drug dealers and drug users, believe me that creates a lot of jobs. I was a libertarian even thou Im not anymore i still think RP will improve a lot of stuff= War on drugs doesn't work for the people, I think peace is better than war so RP is good even thou i am no longer a libertarain or subsrice to the Austrain Economics.
Tethloach1 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1
Yes because the free market declared the "war on drugs", don't you know it? Also Cops = free market?
You wouldn't know Austrian economics if it bit you in the ass.. or science for that matter. Just go back to Peter Joseph give him all your money and wait for the Venus project. You deserve to be scammed.
utubehayter 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1 "a lot of jobs" Check out the broken window fallacy.
"was a libertarian even thou Im not anymore" Then you didn't get it. You cannot unsee the truth and I don't believe you understood the NAP (the basis for libertarianism) then decided to go with violence, instead.
thinkchip 2 weeks ago
@thinkchip I didn't get it?? lol haha i understand it very well, limited government right along with austrain economics? NAP is awsome, the thing is you have to asume that all resources are infinite and consumerism doen't destroy us.
Tethloach1 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1 If you understood it AT ALL, then you would know the ONLY jobs that came as a result of the War on Drugs--or ANY OTHER GOVERNMENT PROGRAM--came at the expense of jobs in the private market.
"the thing is you have to asume that all resources are infinite"
Nope, you NEVER understood it, because the BASIC PRINCIPLES are that resources are FINITE while desires are infinite.
You're like a creaitonist saying "I was once a Darwinist until..."
shanedk 2 weeks ago
@shanedk Don't get me wrong we should still test the principle since i believe in the non agression principle. When i was talking about those things i wanted to throw some critcism out there, Government run stuff are pretty bad, The thing is i understand the basic principles of labour to money a lot better now because i did the calcualtions. How do we get the free market into everyday life with the curent system? Do you know any books by Adam Smith. You have a very good point.
Tethloach1 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1 Why do you have to assume infinite resources?
thinkchip 2 weeks ago
@thinkchip umm.. consumerism, people buying stuff that they don't really need, i was a consumer my self a big consumer, buying useless stuff that didn't benefit me or change my life in the least- expensive sports shoes, expensive entertainment, junk food, long out of style t-shirts as a consumer satisfaction was down dissapointment was up, a lot of people are consumers, because advertisements work. infinite resources= infinite consumerism.
Tethloach1 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1 "consumerism, people buying stuff that they don't really need"
Who says they don't need it? Isn't that for them to decide for themselves? Or do you have some idea that other people should be able to tell them how to live their lives?
shanedk 2 weeks ago
@shanedk "consumerism" people have the impression that if they buy more stuff they will be happier, according to the studies i have seen it's falsel. Yes it is for them to decide. Nobody should tell you how to live your life.
Tethloach1 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1 According to the studies I've seen, it's true up to a point but then there's diminishing returns.
How does any of this mean infinite resources?
shanedk 2 weeks ago
@shanedk You know what, lets just do nothing hope things turn out fine, let's all imagine that their is no waste, lets imagine pollution is a myth, along with toxic waste etc. well were would we be as a society? Global warming is probably a myth but even if it wasn't i personaly don't care, I care more about productivity= produce the best tech to improve life for as many people as possible. Since waste doesn't exist = the economy must be very efficient right! Crony capitalism hmm...
Tethloach1 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1 "You know what, lets just do nothing hope things turn out fine, let's all imagine that their is no waste, lets imagine pollution is a myth, along with toxic waste etc. well were would we be as a society?"
Straw man since Shane proposed nothing of the sort.
"global warming is probably a myth but even if it wasn't i personaly don't care,"
Global warming is not a myth.
johnrainrules 2 weeks ago
@shanedk For instance I think religion is bad, in the sence that it has a negative influence on a lot of people. Nobody really needs religion to be a good person, but since i undertsand that they have to let go of it on thier own. I wouldn't want to tell anyone how to live thier life because, that would make me a hypocrite. I am just a person who wants the best for all of us, Words are pretty funny someone can get the wrong message depending on how you ue them. solutions to problems.
Tethloach1 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1 "I wouldn't want to tell anyone how to live thier life because, that would make me a hypocrite."
Why does this apply to religion, but not in what people consume or what they do with their life?
johnrainrules 2 weeks ago
@johnrainrules What are you talking about? are you saying that I am telling people how to live their lives? if thats what your saying, one your not suppose to listen to anyone who tells you anything, and also if i told you not to kill yourself and you did it anyway, or not to hit your child but you did it anyway your still living your life the way you want to, if i show concern you don't have to listen. aldo dont put words in peoples mouth.
Tethloach1 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1 "What are you talking about? are you saying that I am telling people how to live their lives"
Yes, you like to use the Royal we. It didn't work out so well for the French Monarchy.
"if i show concern you don't have to listen. aldo dont put words in peoples mouth."
When your suggesting eliminating things like money and changing the way "we" produce things you are suggesting using force on people, as you did yesterday.
johnrainrules 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1 Ok. I don't believe peoples desires for stuff is infinite. As folks move up on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, they need less and less.
Resources are, of course, not unlimited and without the state throwing the pricing mechanism way out of whack. as things become more scarce (reduced supply) prices would rise and discourage further consumption.
thinkchip 2 weeks ago
@thinkchip awsome answer! why don't we focus more on solutions rather than argue about technicalities lol haha.
Tethloach1 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1 I agree. How awesome is it that the false left vs. right, dem vs. rep and all the other false dichotomies are falling and people are realizing that they have so much in common and that cooperation and peaceful problem solving is the way to go?
thinkchip 2 weeks ago
@thinkchip its great the internet is a huge part of that along with social net working like, Youtube, facebook, twitter. I am interested in starting a website, i think its a really great iea, I want to know the cost of starting a website, and find a good web designer. If my idea works as i see it than a lot of popes lives can be made easier.
Tethloach1 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1 I meant peoples lives not popes fuck mis spelling
Tethloach1 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1 "why don't we focus more on solutions rather than argue about technicalities lol haha."
Because when you are technically wrong your solution isn't a solution, it's a clusterfuck.
johnrainrules 2 weeks ago
@thinkchip We have to consider the waste, i am not one of those hippies who hugs trees but we should consider the trash we throw out, all of the electronic equipment that we throw out, the internet and buying digital stuff is the least waste full but still we need more efficient energy, considring the thought of pollution we should assume, also im not going to advocate that you recycle or anything but we need a smarter society that is capable of overcoming mass consumerism.
Tethloach1 2 weeks ago
@Tethloach1 I fully agree that we should use the wonderful resources of this planet as smartly and lightly as possible. For me, the way I think this could be best achieved is by stopping the state from shielding polluters and other jerks from the consequences of their damage with things like the corporate veil.
thinkchip 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@shanedk
"Unless you want to just live off the land."
How can you live off the land when all the land is owned by someone else already.
Property rights are tyranny. This solution is no better than the State, and indeed, is the very reason the State has come to exist; protecting the property of rich people from the poor folk who would 'steal' it from them.
It's like listening to someone saying that if we only believe in Jesus, that everything will be better!
Lodatzor 2 weeks ago
This video is a favorite on Mauritania
kirbysawyer25 4 weeks ago
the free market capitalism seems to be the mostly poorly understood from of capitalism.
spark300c 1 month ago
Thanks for the explanation, very enlightening... :0)
DavinaFaerie 1 month ago
Damn son it's that bad?
masterbrice 1 month ago
I've always wanted to say that. :P
vspqbd 3 months ago
The monetary serfdom of the WORLD WORKING CLASS in a politically manipulated market system of artificial scarcity is the template of our common alienation,exploitation and suffering. Capitalism is historically outdated and a tyrannical imposition for minority private gain. A democratic,conscious, majority movement for a world of cooperation for our common needs and well being expressing our creative energies in a MONEYLESS,CLASSSLESS,STATELESS COMMUNITIES OF HUMNAITY
arzoyan 3 months ago
@arzoyan Posts like this always make me think of Michael Palin in Monty Python and the Holy Grail...
shanedk 3 months ago
No minimum wage laws? Only someone who has not worked for the minimum wage could say that. You can barely live on a minimum wage, why on earth would you work for less than that??!
gustjorodedheo 3 months ago
@gustjorodedheo I've worked for MW. And most small businessmen like me end up bringing in LESS than MW if you compare the money we take in to the hours we put in our businesses.
In other words, go fuck yourself, you ignorant presumptuous spoiled brat!
shanedk 3 months ago
@shanedk I'm working for minimum wage now, and can barely afford rent for a single bedroom and bills. And this is while going to school. So go fuck yourself. I can't believe that you chose to respond to my sincere statement by cussing me out. You are a complete jackass, and only blemish the reputation of libertarianism. Also, go fuck your mother, you cuntsucker.
gustjorodedheo 3 months ago
@gustjorodedheo I responded to your statement by saying what a presumptuous asshole you are. You CAN make it on MW or less. LOTS of people do it. You just don't want to make the necessary lifestyle choices.
shanedk 3 months ago
@gustjorodedheo Tell you what: YOU try running a small business and putting in 60 hours a week and making less than what MW workers do in 40, while being a single dad with 2 kids, one of them autistic. And then see how YOU react to some know-nothing snot-nosed jagoff who comes in and tries to talk YOU down just because you gave some factual information that didn't jive with his pathetic Marxist dogma.
shanedk 3 months ago
@gustjorodedheo Oh, and by the way, the reason small businessmen like me make so little is because of YOUR PRECIOUS FUCKING GOVERNMENT. So once again, fuck you and your elitist entitlement-minded dogma.
Maybe one day when you grow up and experience what life is REALLY like you'll look back on this and see what an asshole you've been.
shanedk 3 months ago
@shanedk Yeah, you know exactly who I am, huh? I'm a libertarian, jackass, and excuse me for objecting to YOUR political dogma. The appropriate response was "I disagree with your comment. It is possible to live off of minimum wage. Here is some links you might find useful:..." Not your assvomit that you spewed at me. And I hardly call accruing massive debt "making it" on minimum wage or less. Both of my parents worked for minimum wage, and it was difficult to live, but we did.
gustjorodedheo 3 months ago
My comment was that it would be impossible to live off of less than that. It's called a minimum wage for a reason. But it's bad because a governing body put it into effect. Are you sure you're a libertarian and not an anarchist?? Not all governmental laws are bad, including those that tell businesses they can and cannot do certain things. Once again, your lack of humility or decency leaves much to be desired. Who knows how many people you're turning off of free marketism with your actions.
gustjorodedheo 3 months ago
@gustjorodedheo "My comment was that it would be impossible to live off of less than that. It's called a minimum wage for a reason."
These decisions are made by politicians, NOT based on any sound economics. The sound economics--as demonstrated over and over again--is that MW does NOT raise wages of lower-income people, just make it ILLEGAL FOR THEM TO HAVE A JOB. And it hurts minorities disproportionately.
And how DARE you accuse ME of a lack of humility with the way YOU'VE behaved???
shanedk 3 months ago
@shanedk So, let's say I make less than MW (which in California is $8.00), let's say $6.00/hour. My rent for a 1 bedroom in a bad neighborhood a mile from my university is $545/month. Average electric bill: $20.00. Phone: $45.00. Internet: $35.00 Total credit payments: $85.00 month minimum. Food: $120.00/month. Expenses: $850. Income: (a whole 40 hours/week, which I don't get, as I go to school): $240. Monthly debt: $610. How is this good for any worker?? There is not incentive to work under MW.
gustjorodedheo 3 months ago
@gustjorodedheo Using your figures, you'd be making $12,000 a year (assuming 2 weeks unpaid vacation). Taking your expenses at face value (not counting your bogus entry for credit payments), your annual expenses are $9,180, meaning at $6/hr you have a SURPLUS of $2,820, or $235 a month (while enjoying your high-speed internet).
You're either a bungling imbecile (which would explain your financial situation) or an outright liar (which would explain your behavior here).
shanedk 3 months ago
Oh, and this is ignoring the fact that at $12,000 a year, you would not only NOT pay any taxes but qualify for the MAXIMUM Earned Income Credit.
shanedk 3 months ago
@shanedk
People on MW would be far better off without the inflation tax, among other things.
Really, if him and others are all for the poor and the like, why not go against inflation and the war on drugs?
vspqbd 3 months ago
@vspqbd Because their gov is an awesome God.
shanedk 3 months ago
How on earth did you arrive at that number? My math: $6/hour x 40 hours/week x...whoops I forgot to put in 4 or 5 weeks...x 12 months= big error. See, I'm not afraid to admit I make mistakes. :P But I still think my argument stands. Which is not if MW laws are a good or bad thing, but that there is a minimum wage of which below it is not worth working for. So...according to you, would it then be wrong for a governing body of some sort to enact a MW law based on that number? If no, then why not?
gustjorodedheo 3 months ago
@gustjorodedheo Because it helps no one (other than big corporations) and destroys jobs.
shanedk 3 months ago
@gustjorodedheo 'My comment was that it would be impossible to live off of less than that'
if you had a proper free market economy, those low wages would buy you a lot more, so you possibly could live off of it
Corporatism 3 months ago
@Corporatism Especially without inflation requiring you to constantly play catch-up with rising prices.
shanedk 3 months ago
@gustjorodedheo No, you're a LIAR. There is no possibility that you're actually a libertarian.
evensgrey 3 months ago
@evensgrey Agreed. Being against MW is a part of just about every libertarian platform I've ever seen!
shanedk 3 months ago
@shanedk Labor contracts shouldn't have any special legislative restrictions that other contracts wouldn't have. The only other contracts I know of that have price floors imposed on them are explicitly there to protect some government-sanctioned enterprise (like the post office or the LCBO stores here in Ontario) from competition. (There's a minimum of a few times the postage rate for some things courier companies carry, allegedly to protect against 'overcharging' for carriage.)
evensgrey 3 months ago
@evensgrey So, teachers shouldn't be licensed? And other sundry things like that? Because most professionals and technicians are licensed, which does require "special legislation" of some sorts, and often even private organizations which police their own members, to some extent. Also price controls are different than wage controls.
gustjorodedheo 3 months ago
@gustjorodedheo "Because most professionals and technicians are licensed"
Bullshit. No government licensed me. And most professions that are licensed end up like cosmetologists or cab drivers, where you have to essentially buy a license from your competitors for the privilege of starting your own business.
If you think government licensing is any measure of quality, just look at most of the people driving.
shanedk 3 months ago
@shanedk so doctors aren't licensed?
gustjorodedheo 3 months ago
@gustjorodedheo Yes, that's why there's such a hideous shortage of them and one big reason why health care costs are so high. The AMA artificially restricts the number of new doctors licensed so they can continue to demand ridiculously-high salaries.
shanedk 3 months ago
@shanedk So...would you let me give you open heart surgery, then? I am unlicensed, but I'm sure I'm a great doctor. No one has ever complained about my practice. No one alive, anyway.
gustjorodedheo 3 months ago
@gustjorodedheo "So...would you let me give you open heart surgery, then?"
Not unless you show me your medical degree and tell me where you practice so I can check up on you.
Yes, we're all a bunch of stupid, helpless little morons who need government licensing to tell if someone's a real doctor, we don't have any way of doing it, and we're all so idiotic that we need government to tell us. Or maybe that's just you.
shanedk 3 months ago
@shanedk You at least have a college degree of some sort yes? A degree is one way in which to show that a person you're considering to engage in with economically is competent...
gustjorodedheo 3 months ago
@shanedk "Every libertarian platform"?? I'm not one to sell my soul to an ideology. "Libertarian" is the label that fits me the best, but it by no means explains my entire views. I'm not in love with MW wage laws. But I recognize the reasons why they were enacted. Like it or not, it is impossible to flourish on MW, even living frugally, you only subsist. That's why there's a high turnover rate for MW wage jobs: people find better paying jobs and bail.
gustjorodedheo 3 months ago
@gustjorodedheo "But I recognize the reasons why they were enacted"
They were enacted so it would be harder for small businesses and startups to compete with big corporations. Why do you think those big corporations lobby hard FOR minimum wage increases?
"Like it or not, it is impossible to flourish on MW, even living frugally, you only subsist."
Your bogus math has already been pwned on this.
shanedk 3 months ago
@shanedk My math was less bogus than mistaken, and we both forgot to subtract payroll taxes.And you still haven't addressed my most fundamental assertion: that there is a wage that if one were to work for any less would make having that job and spending your time and labor meaningless. E.g., there is in fact a minimum wage, even if the government set one is "too high". E.g., while it may profit you the business owner to contract workers for $3.50/hour, it would not be worth my effort in exchange
gustjorodedheo 3 months ago
@gustjorodedheo "we both forgot to subtract payroll taxes."
I didn't! I pointed out that you would GET BACK the maximum Earned Income Credit. You WOULDN'T pay taxes; you would GET MONEY.
Wages are set by voluntary agreement between employer and employee. If you make a bad deal, you have to live with the consequences of your own actions. You do NOT get to destroy jobs of the poor and the minorities to do it!
shanedk 3 months ago
@shanedk How is one to know what a good wage is? How is the contracting process an equal one? I think there is a fundamental power difference between an employer and someone seeking a means of income. I.e., in order to work, and short of other options, a person will consent to a bad deal just to survive.
gustjorodedheo 3 months ago
@gustjorodedheo It is unequal: the employer is completely at the mercy of the pool of employees he needs to keep his business going. If they all leave, they can all get other jobs, but he loses his life savings.
Greedy, selfish, elitist Marxist assholes like to turn that around...
shanedk 3 months ago
@shanedk Ok, I'll give you that, as it's not essential to the discussion, but you still haven't answered the question: what is a fair wage, and how are people (employers, employees) to know? Also, I'm curious as to your opinions of employee-owned businesses, and of businesses designed to be "boss-less", run instead by pods of collaborating employees, who vote on every decision.
gustjorodedheo 3 months ago
@gustjorodedheo I HAVE answered it: the wage is negotiated between them. THEY decide, not you or me.
If employee-owners can make a business work, so be it. Most family-owned businesses are run this way anyway!
shanedk 3 months ago
@evensgrey LOLz. Yeah, I'm not a libertarian at all. Thank the Gods that someone from the libertarian purity police has arrived. I guess I'm voting for Ron Paul because I'm secretly a communist. Your proclivity towards moral indictments on no evidence gives me reason to believe that your one of the christian nazi fundamentalists that I grew up surrounded by. Well, you know what your book says about lying...and about masturbation, but go fuck yourself anyways.
gustjorodedheo 3 months ago
@gustjorodedheo You can't jump in right off the bat with long-discredited Marxist rhetoric, defending one of the pillars of socialism that NO libertarian supports, and then claim to be a libertarian and then whine when you're called on it.
Oh, and BTW, I'm an atheist, and unless I'm mistaken evensgrey is, too.
shanedk 3 months ago
@shanedk Indeed I am an atheist. That doesn't stop me from following a religious tradition, but it's one that doesn't need to have any gods in it. (Some people include a god, and the originators did, but there's nothing in it that NEEDS a god, or an afterlife, or anything like that.)
evensgrey 3 months ago
@evensgrey OK, but that tradition is obviously NOT "Christian Nazi Fundamentalism" as gustjorodedheo's dogma led him to conclude.
shanedk 3 months ago
@shanedk Certainly not. The Nazis would have executed me, in fact. AND burned my books.
evensgrey 3 months ago
@shanedk My dogma? I was being obnoxious because he was. Gods. And Christianity is quite similar to fascism. I should know: I grew up in it. And I'm confused with evensgrey's statement. It sounds like he took an established religion, kept its ethos and pathos and subtracted whatever deities. Perhaps he'd like to expound upon that, or correct me. Either way, I'm curious...
gustjorodedheo 3 months ago
@shanedk There is a multitude of variations within libertarianism. And it is possible to be a socialistic libertarian. It's called something along the lines of communalism, local minarchism, or my own sort of term: borderline anarchy.
gustjorodedheo 3 months ago
@gustjorodedheo If you knew anything at all about it, you'd know that libertarianism is fundamentally individualist while socialist is fundamentally collectivist. They're MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE!!!
shanedk 3 months ago
@shanedk I disagree. I think that yes, libertarianism is individualistic, and communism, or other forms of communalism are collective, but I think that with socialism, there is a bit of room to wriggle in as per its application. And my concerns all have to do with ensuring that the rights of the individual (which then migrate upwards into organized bodies, or "localities") are respected. I do not think that anarchistic tendencies respect peoples rights, but remove them.
gustjorodedheo 3 months ago
Or at least is not a sufficient respecter of individual rights. Governments of various forms naturally arise ad hoc from individuals collectivizing for the common good.
gustjorodedheo 3 months ago
@gustjorodedheo I've worked for less than minimum wage and did fine. Maybe you're just a spoiled brat?
Visfen 2 weeks ago
Free Market is an ideology where the elite ruling/ owning class compel the majority working men and women into financial serfdom of the wage slavery. Free Market is a myth a lie and the devaluation of all and everything. FUCK CAPITALISM
arzoyan 3 months ago
@arzoyan fuck stupid people like you.
IWantToUnderstandIt 3 months ago
@arzoyan obviosly so what are you? an anarcho-syndacalist? a hyper-statist communist? hmm?
Ravengaurd6 3 months ago
@Ravengaurd6 I am a working man , a human being who is aware and conscious of the tyranny of world capitalism. dont label yourself or any one as labels have either commercial use value or ideological dogmas to perpetuate the closure of minds.
arzoyan 3 months ago
@arzoyan Free marketism and capitalism are not the same thing. Capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production, whereas free marketism is the unhindered exchange of goods in an economic market. A free market can be capitalistic, socialistic, communalistic, etc. I think that avoiding wage slavery is a necessary thing in a free society, but I can't speak for all libertarians on the matter. In a truly free market, people could make the decision as to how best live and work.
gustjorodedheo 3 months ago
@gustjorodedheo "Free marketism"? If you have to make up terms to make your point you may as well leave now.
A free market CANNOT be socialist or communist (even if you DO make up different words for those). And if you even use the term "wage slavery" like it has any genuine meaning at all then you're NOT a libertarian and NOT a free marketeer in ANY WAY. You speak for NO libertarians AT ALL.
shanedk 3 months ago
@shanedk Free markets can theoretically exist in an equally theoretical socialist or communist state. Obviously as no system has endured as strictly self-governing on a local scale (the ideals of Marxism) it has been squashed by strong centralized governments, which were of course presumed to be necessary before a society could transition away from governments.
gustjorodedheo 3 months ago
@gustjorodedheo You are playing with words
arzoyan 3 months ago
@arzoyan Perhaps you could elaborate upon how my words have no substance to the discussion at hand? And what do you think the correct discussion should then be?
gustjorodedheo 3 months ago
@gustjorodedheo Stop watching family guy, and start streaking.
vspqbd 3 months ago
@vspqbd I don't watch tv. And I'd only watch if your execution was being televised.
gustjorodedheo 3 months ago
@gustjorodedheo You wrote "Or at least is not a sufficient respecter of individual rights"
You also wrote "I don't watch tv. And I'd only watch if your execution was being televised."
Hmm, this seems contradictory somehow.
johnrainrules 3 months ago
@gustjorodedheo The word free and market is a contradiction in terms , just as CAPITAL enslaves and exploites WAGE LABOR . The dynamics of World Capitalism whether Corporate dominated or State dictated is the abstract PROCESS of CAPITAL ACCUMULATION and CONCENTRATION. This abstract process is not smooth or linear but DESTRUCTIVE and enforced by MILLITARY MIGHT. The INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION was underpinned by built up of the BRITISH NAVY and US DOLLAR by world wide millitary bases . more to F
arzoyan 3 months ago
@arzoyan "This abstract process is not smooth or linear but DESTRUCTIVE" Since when is destruction the only alternative to linearity?
johnrainrules 3 months ago
@johnrainrules your cerebral myopia is not linear
arzoyan 3 months ago
@arzoyan The Easter Bunny isn't linear either, but for the exact same reason.
johnrainrules 3 months ago
The problem.... The market is not "FREE". The type of capitalism we have today is some mutation. While your version of the free market is correct. It is simply a theory. You mentioned Adam Smith - LOL 1892... Was that the last time we had this free market? How long til JP Morgan got a hold of it?
Downfurlife 5 months ago
@Downfurlife "The type of capitalism we have today is some mutation."
What we have today is corporatism, not capitalism.
shanedk 5 months ago
@shanedk
what do you think about Mike Gravel's national initiative idea?..if you're not aware of it, it's basically giving citizens the power to make laws..sounds to me like a good method of stopping corporatism..why would citizens write laws favoring corporations, ya know?
itzahazylife 3 months ago
@shanedk I'd say that you're both right in that corporatism functions off the basics of capitalism, but with government regulation. So, its like an offshoot of capitalism, but against the ideals of capitalism
symbolboy44a 3 months ago
@symbolboy44a I guess so, but only by the same logic that you could say that astrology is related to astronomy.
shanedk 3 months ago
free market-maplestory
spwilfred 5 months ago
Another disciple of Friedman's ridiculous prose. Thank God John Maynard Keynes had solutions to fix the broken system created by Milton Friedman's ridiculous ideas in 2008. All of Friedman's conclusions are based in an obfuscation of history and assumptions (you will not find a bibliography in Freedom and Capitalism). Small businesses, with licenses, and a customer base are regularly railroaded by giant corporations. What about Walmart's impact? Who do you think small business are scared of?
jujuandjesus 5 months ago
@jujuandjesus Oh boy, another dogmatist. Exactly which of Friedman's policies do you think were in place prior to 2008? (Hint: if you use the word "deregulation" I and others here are going to laugh in your face...)
shanedk 5 months ago
@jujuandjesus Milton Friedman was about 50% socialist.
19TEC85 4 months ago
Wonderful video. Nice job.
spec24 5 months ago
Damn DROID spelling corrector!!!!
spec24 5 months ago
Emzyk that's bullshit. History has shown no such thing, I guess FACT it's shown the opposite. In the past government has only passed regulations as changes were already on the move. The govt then takes credit. It's horseshit.
spec24 5 months ago
@spec24 I like the way John Stossel put it: "Government is like someone who jumps in front of a parade and pretends to be leading it."
shanedk 5 months ago
@shanedk
"I like the way John Stossel put it: 'Government is like someone who jumps in front of a parade and pretends to be leading it.'"
I find the same applies to religion. How many Creationists have you had commenting on your biology videos blathering about how "Christianity invented morality" or "How can you be moral without God?" etc? Last I checked, Religion didn't invent morality.
vspqbd 5 months ago
@shanedk
Is the free market good for America? Does it have a good or bad effect to big company or industries like Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Google, Apple's, and others.
XXM1T90XX 5 months ago
@XXM1T90XX Considering they're about the only ones creating jobs right now...
Boeing is trying to open a factory (that's already been built) in South Carolina and employ 7,000 people. The government is trying to STOP them!
shanedk 5 months ago
@shanedk whats the reason, how come?
Timb0NZ 4 months ago
@Timb0NZ Because they don't like that South Carolina is a right-to-work state and the board is largely made up of union members. That's the ONLY reason.
shanedk 4 months ago
@shanedk Austrian schoolar falsely accused neoclassical utility theory of assuming cardinality. It does not. There is nothing actually wrong with Rothbard's value scale approach, but because the neoclassical assumptions are in some ways less restrictive than Rothbard's, neoclassicals made the important discovery that price changes have both income and substitution effects - a discovery Rothbard was unable to grasp.The Austrians are unabel handle facts the way Milton Friedman did.
treddas851 4 months ago
@treddas851 Please rephrase into something parsable by an English speaker.
shanedk 4 months ago