The Real Healthcare Debate: The Government's Role

[FRSFreeState]

Government's role in America when it comes to Health Care is to regulate to prevent abuses but not control. And to help people who can't afford Health Insurance on they're own. Get access to affordable Health Care.

[regresseur]

The ones that matter. *

[forwardmover]

Anyone know why, in CA, NON-profit Blue SHIELD now has 3-5% market share while 4-profit Blue CROSS (Now called Anthem Blue Cross) now has 25-30% market share and is #1 in CA? ( Mkt share data is at CA dept Insurance website.)

[forwardmover]

Touche was not the right word for me to use. seeing your posts, you seem like an agry (and crude) left wing nut case. Very angry. Did ACORN / Obama team lay you off?

[stengevarsel]

sigh.. So much ignorance, so little time.

oh well

[forwardmover]

Personally, I think he should roll his head and eyes more.

[forwardmover]

Standard response from a lefty ... when they have been defeated. SWEARING.

Touche!

[forwardmover]

Paul Krugman eastern-intellectual egghead wannabee? ? Soft-spined. Stooping. mediteranean hand-waving

[forwardmover]

are you, like, sixtyish, former sf hippy, who did like lots of encounter groups? You know, man? What about drugs? Eh, DUDE? "Standard simple words"? What kind of pretentious psuedo- intellectual BABBLE is that? Where are you, Vermont, Seattle, SF?

[Factifier]

Anarchy may look like a good alternative on paper. It would certainly provide more individual freedom. But Anarchy was disbanded at the very moment where human kind learned that one can't pillage the closest village and still expect regional superiority. Anarchy is a primitive philosophy, disbanded thousands of years ago.

[forwardmover]

Health Access CA is a socialist organization, helping to drive people out of CA and this guy ( Exec Director) has a BA in sociology. And, Pres is a former Community organizer. No wonder China is kicking our ass. USA is like a country on drugs.

[forwardmover]

Yah, and you might have to pay your own bills. How's that for an "encounter"?

Did you goo to Amherst allllsooo? Why is that people who use words like "encounter" and "most ignorant" are sooo often Liberal eltist wannabee?

Government stick to basics ... and make "policy analyst wonky wonks" get real jobs.

[truthadvocate]

Government a check on Corporate powers??? That's hilarious. Government is a weapon used by corporate powers to shut out competition. Government created corporations to protect them from risk. Government bails out corporations that should fail. A check on corporate power? He can't be serious.

[WellIAMScottish]

I don't think the issue is as black and white as you are making it out to be. The government has many problems, yes, but it also provides people many benefits. OF COURSE the goal is to improve government. Healthcare is the priority right now. Just because we can't overhaul the entire system at one point in time, doesn't mean we should abandon everything and give up to our negativity. Evolution is a process. It takes effort to evolve. Why dont you be apart of progress instead of tearing it down?

[truthadvocate]

What benefit does government provide that people cannot provide to each other through voluntary interactions?

You dislike war. Government makes it possible to fund never-ending wars. Government creates trade barriers. With less trade between countries you get more war between countries.

By fighting the delusion that humans need a coercive government, I'm not giving up. I promote true progress, as apposed to the same old pattern of expanding government & diminishing freedom.

[stengevarsel]

"What benefit does government provide that people cannot provide to each other through voluntary interactions?"

Health care for all. A mindset of health care as a human right. Anything less is uncivilized. Charity leaves the poorest with mediocre health, you know it, we all know it. Your utopian vision does not exist, nor has it ever.

[truthadvocate]

Healthcare is not a right. To enforce it would require the violation of fundamental rights. It would require theft, extortion & enslavement.

Charities compete to earn donations. Government does not. Thus government services are far less efficient, productive & effective at serving people's needs.

Government is incapable of solving problems. It makes them worse. Then demands more money. Yet you trust lying politicians to manage the healthcare of 300 million people. Thats a utopian nightmare.

[Factifier]

That is why I said "mindset", thus predicting your robot reply.

"Theft" "Extortion" "Enslavement"

Thus my ass. Take a good, hard look at the most successful "socialist" health care systems of the world and bite the dust. The US is way behind.

Your final point shows the void between reality and philosophy. Read up on the stats before blindly trusting your own mindset as fact.

[truthadvocate]

I read stats. I also check methods & sources. Stats on uninsured largely consist of people who could afford to purchase insurance but choose not to. Some healthcare rankings are largely dependent on issues not related to healthcare. The U.S. actually has the highest survival rates for many forms of cancer.

I take definitions for words like theft & apply them consistently. If that reminds you of a robot, I'm flattered.

Talk about blind trust. Why do you continue to blindly trust the government?

[stengevarsel]

Good, then.

Like murder, rape, suicide, etc? True. My own country has a lower murder and rape rate, but a higher suicide rate. Everyone still gets health care. Your country is the only western country where this is not the case.

You have a higher cancer survival rate as a direct consequence of higher screening frequencies due to fear of law suits. Primitive.

You say theft, I say solidarity. Go figure.

[stengevarsel]

The American sickness of blind distrust of government is a problem and you need to fix it by reducing lobbyism/monetary influence in politics. But you can't look outside the States for input, because the rest of the west is "red". But I digress, and I'm pretty sure there's a red herring and maybe a strawman in there somewhere too.

[truthadvocate]

"Your country is the only western country..." This is a fallacious argument. An appeal to numbers. It demonstrates your lack of respect for minority opinions. & does nothing to prove that your system would result in less human suffering.

Solidarity: A union of interests, purposes, or sympathies among members of a group. I support the idea. That's why I'm a voluntaryist. But forcing a minority that disagrees with you to pay for your program using threats is not solidarity. It's theft & extortion

[stengevarsel]

It's not a fallacy, simply because the US has large number of uninsured individuals, other western nations do not, all are covered.

There are no "forced" minorities, no extortion or theft. That is a bastardized generalization, fitting in theory, invalid in practice, unless you want to talk about Pol Pot and Stalin.

But who am I kidding, you are clearly an anarchist, I'm a "socialist", even though I voted for the far right in our elections two days ago.

[truthadvocate]

"no forced minorities" Do I have the freedom to NOT pay for war waged by my government? Do I have the freedom to keep what I earn? Do I have the freedom to opt out of any government policy I don't support? Will I not be threatened with imprisonment for doing so? Not unless I flee the country. & where on earth can a man live a life free of this force? Nowhere

Its a fallacy to argue a thing is better because a large number of countries support it.

People are also refused care when its rationed.

[stengevarsel]

Yes, you can choose not to work, beg for money, or sell your body. But I was talking about my own country. I can choose not to work and recieve welfare, in which the state pays for housing, clothes and food in cash.

What I meant was that all people are covered by default, but in your country you need to pay for it personally. Not all people have the means to do so, or choose not to. That's why it's not a fallacy, because those who cannot pay will suffer from it, by default.

[stengevarsel]

People are NOT refused care. At worst they have to wait in line for surgery.

Health care is not rationed. And everyone has a legal right to choose their own doctor, and hospital. It's really that boring, everyone gets what they need, and whenever the system slips up, it's all over the media.

[truthadvocate]

Waiting for surgery in many situations results in death. A year ago I had a surgery to remove a dangerous infection that was spreading rapidly. Waiting would have caused permanent damage to my body & may have threatened my life. Waiting for diagnostic procedures & treatments allows illnesses to progress & patients to suffer & die.

When you force someone to wait, you are refusing to care for them in the present.

[stengevarsel]

First, diagnostic procedures are almost instant.

The process is this:

You detect a problem, then go to your doctor, this is done within days. Then you are referred to a specialist. The process is finalized within weeks (not months).

Then you wait in line for surgery. Let's say it's orthopedic surgery which implies a non-acute ailment. This is over and done with in the timescale of a few months.

[stengevarsel]

Within this timescale, you know for certain that you will be treated, regardless of reasons, you also know that you won't pay a dime.

I pay high taxes, thus paying for assholes being shot in gang shootouts, and little old ladies with osteoporosis. No matter what, by paying my taxes I preserve the lifespan and lifetime of all citizens. And I do it with PRIDE.

[truthadvocate]

My process was like this:

I felt a lump growing in size. I called my doctor's office. He gave me the number for a surgeon. I met with the surgeon that afternoon. The next morning I was in surgery.

Just because you think national healthcare works in Norway does not mean it will work in the U.S. We have 300 million patients to manage & 12 trillion dollars of debt. Cost would be astronomical. Corruption inevitable. & besides we value our individuality & freedom. Do your thing. We'll do ours.

[stengevarsel]

Wow, that is fast. Good thing you were covered. Remember i said "worst case"?

I don't think it works, I know it works, first hand. In case you missed the reports and stats of the last ten years or so, you would know that life in Norway is uncomfortably easy. That is why I remind myself of the sheer luck of being born in Norway by discussing national demographics on YouTube.

Anyway, good discussion, you gave me a lot of stuff to look up. Good night.

Stengevarsel out.

[stengevarsel]

Furthermore, if a minority, or just one individual, disagrees with policies set by democratic processes, they are free to leave.

Example: My country had an election just a couple of days ago. We chose to keep a "socialist" government in power. With a media less polarized, thus less biased, than in the US.

True democracy/"Socialism"

How do you explain such a result? Indoctrination? Sloth? Certainly not greed.

[truthadvocate]

Absolutely greed. You vote for politicians to steal the property of others to provide you with "free" healthcare. You force other people to pay for the cause of your choice. Greed comes in many forms. Your politicians are greedy for power. & you just handed it to them.

"We chose..." "We" cannot choose, because "We" does not have a single brain. Selfish politicians & voters chose to force their will on others.

Why is it unreasonable for someone to opt out without leaving the country?

[stengevarsel]

Why is it that philosophy and religion values selflessness instead of greed?

You would pay 1-2% more of your income to preserve the lifetime of your fellow citizens. In a lifetime, this would amount to less than all the cokes you bought when you could get a free public drink of water.

[truthadvocate]

I could spend 1-2% toward the charity of my choice too. How is that any less virtuous? Why shouldn't I be able to choose how my money is spent?

It's always 1-2% this. 1-2% that. Incremental adjustments. As a result we have the highest corporate income tax. We pay half of everything we make to the government. & they waste 90% of it.

I drink water from the tap already. You have no clue how much I've already given to charity. What makes you think you can tell me how to live my life?

[stengevarsel]

Your points are good, no doubt.

I'm gonna spend some time expanding my knowledge due to this discussion.

Peace and prosperity to you my friend.

[stengevarsel]

How is this "force"?

Armed police at your door? Armed police in public areas? Police is force, yet my country does not have armed police. We don't need it, but you do? Of course you don't. Freedom is among other things the absence of potential harm.

[boxant]

The federal government has grown grossly in size and power in our history, far from it's original intent of a minimal federal government.

Now many people almost expect government to regulate and control most aspects of our lives, which is a sad state of affairs in my opinion.

Hopefully people will again want to live in society that the government plays a much smaller role.

[dlucas90]

If the reason "we" need this government health care plan is because the insurance / financial corporations are too big to be competitive (AKA MONOPOLIES), then why do our politicians keep bailing them out?

The tax-payer is being asked....er told to pay for both sides of the competition!

Insurance was intended for catastrophic protection, it was never meant to be a medical payment plan.

If insurance were inherently necessary then who insures the insurance companies?

[Jrien]

Well, there's the cap and trade policy (I realize it's unpopular with a lot of people, but I think it's a good idea).

Setting new emission standards for US made cars was good (and even a bit too lenient in my opinion).

Cash for clunkers was a really bad idea in terms of keeping people from increasing their debt, but it helped to take some really unclean cars off the road. (I realize the cutoff mileage was 18 mi/gal, but it's still a start).

There's room for improvement, but it's not bad.

[Jrien]

Wait, what has the government improved (aside from environmental policy I suppose)?

[regresseur]

The government doesn't care about you. Sorry.

[JimLongo]

Anthony Wright has it right. Until we can come to an agreement regarding any role the government will play beyond its enumerated powers, nothing will be resolved.