Congress Debates 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell'

[attie3]

i want to know why is it so important for gay people to serve openly in the army whats the reason for it? i don't think this is the right time for it we all know whats going to happen if Don't Ask, Don't Tell is gone. your going to have a big division in the army and recruitment is going to go down and alot of fight are going to break out so why is it so people if we know whats going to happen? just like the desegregation of the military in 1948

[Harshal2DaG]

@attie3 it's not a question of "why do we need gay people in the military"...the real matter is a person who is qualified of serving in the army is denied his/her constitutional right to serve and protect the country he/she is a part of...and the "fights" you speak of those are individual aspects...when people just group and say that oh homosexuals will make this happen, that is just rediculous, that is the same to me as labeling a group of people and saying that this is the case for fall. dumb.

[Harshal2DaG]

@Harshal2DaG *all

[jusitke07]

BTW 3dartistguy....would you consider yourself a hypocrite for using a curse word in some of your comments?

[jusitke07]

...And since you've somewhat answered the question about the Bibiel & Homosexuality, lets see if you can answer the question in regards to your personal sexual attraction:

If you believe sexuual attraction to be a choice, then as a younger kid, you probably had the choice between the sexes since you were sexually attracted to both, or were you only sexuall attracted to the opposite sex?

[jusitke07]

...And it's interesting how you dodge some of the questions I asked you in regards to debating the Bible & Homosexuality and your sexual orientation....yeah I thought so.

[3dartistguy]

i CAN QUOTE THE BIBLE ALL i WAN,T BUT YOU'LL DISTORT AND TWIST IT TO JUSTIFY YOUR SICK DESIRE TO FUCK OTHER MEN IN THE ASS.

[jusitke07]

"i CAN QUOTE THE BIBLE ALL i WAN,T BUT YOU'LL DISTORT AND TWIST IT TO JUSTIFY YOUR SICK DESIRE TO FUCK OTHER MEN IN THE ASS"

Hey I'd have to say the same for you in your sick evil desire to basically hate your neighbors. But if you really want to give Biblical debate a try....bring it on dude.

[jusitke07]

Can anyone, ANYOYNE, tell me why our allies such as Mexico, UK, Australia, Philippines, Israel, Spain, France, New Zealand, Japan, France, Germany, Spain, Argentina, Chile, Peru, Canada, etc. don't seem to have a problem with unit cohesion with openly Gays & Lesbians in their respective military? And why is that oursstandsrdsof Gays in the military fallin the same line ironically with Saudi Arabia, Iran, United Arab Emirates, Lebanon, Pakistan, China, North Korea, Egypt, Cuba, and Russia?

[jusitke07]

And regarding the Poll in the Military Times, you need ot show me that because I can't find it. However I did find this in the Military times;

militarytimes(dot)com/forum/sh­owthread(dot)php?t=1581233

[3dartistguy]

"Due to my religious beliefs, I don't agree with gays in the military," said one soldier.

Some active members of the military stationed at the Joint Reserve Base in Fort Worth didn't want to be identified, but told CBS 11 News that openly gay members in the military would make things awkward.

"We're in a place where we have to do public showers," the soldier said, "and we don't have the privacy people have in their homes. It's going to create some discomfort, absolutely."

[jusitke07]

"Due to my religious beliefs, I don't agree with gays in the military," said one soldier.

That's only one soldier out of many within the US military branches. Like I said earlier on, there are some that don't mind at all, there are some that don't care so as long as the mission is carried through, and there are some that fully support the repeal of DADT. Now back to the "religious beliefs" of that one soldier, tell me what you know about Separation of Church & State?

[3dartistguy]

Elaine Donnelly in the National Review Online and on Fox News that lifting the ban on openly gay troops would destroy the U.S. military. Donnelly, president of the Center for Military Readiness, made her case in a January 2nd blog post and again on the Fox News Channel on January 11th. She based her argument on a survey conducted by the Military Times which found that 58% of respondents oppose openly gay service and 10% claim they would not re-enlist if the ban were lifted.

[jusitke07]

Hellllo, you're talking about Elaine Donelly, and most of all Fox News, very biased info if you asked me. No matter how much valid info reports on how well other allied countries, especially Israel, are okay with letting Homosexuals serving openly with no reports of any unit cohesion, Elaine Donelly & Fox News are still not going to listen or even read about. But with all that said, isn't ironic that the DADT policy aligns with the laws of Russia, China, Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam, Saudi Arabia.

[3dartistguy]

wHATEVER DUDE...FOX NEWS ISN'T BIASED. YOU JUST DON'T LIKE THEIR REPORTING THE TRUTH....AND IM SURE RUSSIA, CHINA, BUBA, NORTH KOREA, VIETNAM AND SAUDI ARABIA ALL KNOW THAT THE HOMOSEXUAL LIFESTYLE IS NOT APPROPIETE IN THE MILITARY.

[jusitke07]

Our allies like France, Germany, Japan, Philippines, Mexico, Australia, UK, Canada, Argentina, Israel, New Zealand, Ireland, Denmark, Sweden, South Africa, Norway, are okay with allowing Homosexuals to serve openly. And yet you side with our political enemies and their atrocious strain on basic human rights like Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt, North Korea, Turkey, Yemen, United Arab Emirates, etc., so you're basically siding with them? How unpatriotic do you think?

[3dartistguy]

BEING GAY IS YOUR FUCKED UP CHOICE. doing your job well is NOT the only thing that the military cares about. YOU CHOOSE TO BE DISOBIEDIENT AGAINST GOD BY SINNING, ASSHOLE.

[jusitke07]

"BEING GAY IS YOUR FUCKED UP CHOICE"

"CHOICE" you say? So let me ask you this and lets see how you answer this: When you say choice, do you mean to say that you had sexual attractions for both members of the sexes, or do you suppose that you born to be attracted to the opposite sex?

[3dartistguy]

wE'RE NOT ENEMIES WITH rUSSIA, OR china, sAUDI aRABIA, tURKEY, AND THE uNITED aRAB EMIRATES, DUDE. you choose to be gay and DISOBIDIENT AGAINST GOD...

[jusitke07]

"you choose to be gay and DISOBIDENT AGAINST GOD..."

Hey I asked you earlier if you want to debate with on the Bible, but you failed to give an answer. So I'll ask again since you bring up religion in this conversation:

Do you want to debate the Bible & Homosexualit with me or not?

[3dartistguy]

fine sure, but you'll be DEFENSELESS, because Ive got GOD on my side.

[jusitke07]

"because I've got GOD on my side."

Do you think every Christian denomination thinks that? Like the Lutherans, Catholics, Seventh Day Adventists, Methodists, Baptists, Mennonites (Amish Community), Mormons, Presbyterians, Episcopalians,GLBT Christians, Straight Christians, Asian Christians, African Christians, Arab Christians, etc...??

[3dartistguy]

There may be a TINY minority that don't care, and I say TINY minority, but I know that the VAST majority DO CARE, and DON'T WANT TO KNOW THAT SOMEONE IN THEIR UNIT THAT THEY SHARE BERTHING WITH IS GAY. THESE ARE JUST AVERAGE PEOPLE THAT I KNOW, YOU'RE TYPICAL AVERAGE ORDINARY SERVICEMEN.

[jusitke07]

Here let me say it again:

73 percent of military personnel are comfortable with lesbians and gays (Zogby International, 2006).

The younger generations, those who fight America's 21st century wars, largely don't care about whether someone is gay or not-and they do not link job performance with sexual orientation.

One in four U.S. troops who served in Afghanistan or Iraq knows a member of their unit who is gay (Zogby, 2006).

[3dartistguy]

aND 76 PERCENT WOULD NOT CONTNUE TO SERVE IF DON'T ASK, AND DON'T TELL WERE ENDED, ASSHOLE. OR ARE YOU GOING TO DISCREDIT MY EVIDENCE BECAUSE IT RUNS COUNTER TO YOURS?

[jusitke07]

"aND 76 PERCENT WOULD NOT CONTINUE TO SERVE IF DON'T ASK, AND DON'T TELL WERE ENDED"

Did you know they said the same thing when Government thought about ending military segregation? And what happened? Nobody separated. They lied to threat only, but never fulfilled their words, because they needed the job anyway.

[3dartistguy]

THATS NOT JUST ONE SOLDIER. YES, ITS ONE SOLDIER'S COMMENTS, MULTIPLY THAT BY ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND. oUR LAWS AND ETHICS ARE FOUNDED UPON JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BELIEFS, ASSHOLE. WE DON'T NEED OR WANT FLAMMERS IN THE MILITARY. THEIR LIFESTYLE IS NOT CONDUSIVE TO MILITARY LIFE.

[jusitke07]

And in regards to the Military times and the comment of some of the soldiers saying they don't mind serving with a Homosexual....there are many like them in the military right now.

[3dartistguy]

We were just talking about this issue on base today, and I never one word of tolerance about sharing barracks with homos. IN fact, they were sneering at the thought.

[jusitke07]

"IN fact, they were sneering at the thought"

Ah ah, stop right there. When you say "they" it's as if you're saying the entire miltiary is "sneering at the thought" when that is not the truth. In fact there are some that don't mind, don't care, and do want Homosexuals to serve openly.

[3dartistguy]

ARMY TIMES ASSHOLE.

[3dartistguy]

So now you give the Bible credibility when it makes your point? What about the other verses that those who practic the sin of homosexuality shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven? You can't just pick and choose what you want just to make a point.

[jusitke07]

Ah ah, stop right there, did I ever say that Homosexuality in of itself, just like Heterosexuality, is wrong? I don't think so. My church welcomes the GLBT community and despite what some churches, there are churces that are inclusive to the GLBT community and have done their research based on Biblical History, Science, and archaeology that Homosexuality is not wrong just as Heterosexuality is not wrong.

[jusitke07]

Here's another one from the Zogby poll of 2006 again:

One in four U.S. troops who served in Afghanistan or Iraq knows a member of their unit who is gay (Zogby, 2006).

[jusitke07]

Check this out 3dartistguy from the Zogby poll of 2006, which is not too long ago.

73 percent of military personnel are comfortable with lesbians and gays (Zogby International, 2006)

[3dartistguy]

Well another Poll in the Military Times said that 76 Percent of active duty in the military would NOT continue to serve if Don't Ask, Don't Tell were ended. I know, because Im a Reservist who is in constant contact with active duty members whose views on serving with openly gay servicemembers has Not changed.

[jusitke07]

continued....now if you imply according to your personal interpretations, not mine or the inclusive churches, that Homosexuals are sinners, well aren't Heterosexuals sinners too?

[3dartistguy]

Yes, everyone is a Sinner, but those who follow Christ ask for forgiveness of their Sin and try and live a less sinful life. homosexuals blantantly defy God by continuing to live in their Sinful lifestyle. Christians have been authorized by God to live Man and Woman together, not the same sex.

[jusitke07]

Ah ah stop there. Again, don't tell me that homosexuality is a sinful lifestyle, which would then also conclude that heterosexuality is a sinful lifestyle. Did you want to debate this?

[3dartistguy]

Jude 7 "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire." SERVICEMEMBERS DO NOT WANT TO SERVE WITH HOMOSEXUALS.

[jusitke07]

Trust me, you can't generalize all servicemembers, because you're right some members really don't want gays in the mlitary, but then there are some that don't care so as long as the mission is carried through, there are some that don't mind at all, and there are some that do want gays & lesbians given the right to serve if they choose to. So you can't just say SERVICEMEMBERS DO NO WANT TO SERVE WITH HOMOSEXUALS, when in fact that there are servicemembers to do, or don't mind at all with Gays.

[3dartistguy]

Well trust me, there may be a very small minority that don't care, but the great majoirty is that counts, and 76 percent of servicemembers DON'T WANT to serve with openly gay servicemembers....76 percent don't want to know that someone they live with in close, tight and personal quarters is gay....76 percent is well above 50 percent. doesn't the voices of the ones that don't want to serve with openly gay servicemen count? The reason why the current policy works is becuase no one wants to know.

[jusitke07]

Did ever say "minority that don't care"? I do believe I said "some"...right?

[jusitke07]

Oh and in regards to Sodom and Gomorrah, God didn't destroy Sodom & Gomorrah based on homosexuality. No He didn't. If you read Ezekiel 16:49-56, you'll see that God destroyed it and other cities due to the sin of inhospitality. Go ahead and read and tell me what you think. I love verse 53, you really have to read that.

[prarmyboy20]

I am so sorry for Ms. Donnelly but as a former veteran for the Army, never once was my sexual orientation conflicting or bothersome to my fellow soldiers. I did my job as they did their's. It is an insult to believe that unit cohesion may be disrupted due to knowledge of ones sexual orientation/preference; we all work around the LGBT community whether it be federal, governmental or regular society, what is the difference with the military/armed forces???

[VolgaTatar2007]

A vast majority of Americans support repealing DADT, and yet the generals are stuck in the past. The tradition in this country is civilian control of the military, so shouldn't the military be forced to accede to the will of the people on such broad policy issues?

[JacdCat]

If DADT is repealed I think they should just allow men and women in the military to shower together too.

But they shouldn't should they?

Women wouldn't be comfortable.

Just like a straight man wouldn't be comfortable showering next to a guy he knew was gay.

[VolgaTatar2007]

Forget about showering. There are more important things in the army than showering. The US Army should get the most skilled and the most highly qualified people. Firing gays harms the military and deprives it of the top talent. We should follow the example of Israel where gays can serve openly

[JacdCat]

Hey,as a straight man. I'm all for forgetting about showering.

I'd love to shower with the women.

Just like I'm sure a gay man loves showering with the men.

Unfortunately it's a legite argument. Whether your a woman umcomfortable getting naked in front of a man, or a straight guy uncomfortable getiin naked infront of a gay man.

[VolgaTatar2007]

Showering accommodations can be adjusted or changed. But the irrational fears of straight men should not be more important than someone's right to serve his country. Imagine someone saying: "I am uncomfortable around Jews, they should not be allowed to serve"

[JacdCat]

I think the whole issue is not about whether gays should serve or not. But rather gay and straight men showering together.

Why are gays so special, that they shouldn't have to follow a rule that straight men and women have had to follow since women were allowed in the military?

Why don't you explain to your mom, why her fear is irrational because she doesn't want to get naked or shower in front of your uncle jack.

[VolgaTatar2007]

If a straight guy is so afraid to show his genitals then how the hell such a coward can defend our country? And why his little fears are more important than someone's military career? Forget about showering, think about defending our country!

[JacdCat]

Tell that to the women.

If they are so afraid to undress or shower in front of a bunch of men.

How the hell are they supposed to help defend our country?

That argument doesnt make sense does it?

[prarmyboy20]

The only time I had to shower with another man in view of myself and vice versa was back in basic training. Even then, I still remained professional, did not look at another man in ANY different way and there was NEVER a sexual approach/misconduct that I encountered while serving my country in the Army. That being said, it is up to the individual in question to make the decision to follow the policy of DADT and to respect each other and their wishes, but not to exclude our men/women who are LGBT

[JacdCat]

AHH. My thoughts exactly. Why don't they allow men and women in the military to shower with eachother? Why not the boys and girls in highschool?

Why should we give gay people this special treatment of seeing members of the sex they are attracted to, but naked,but restrict straight people from the same thing?

Are gays more professional than straight men and women?

[jusitke07]

Uh, hello, there are despite the fact of DADT still in law, there are many gays & Straights still showering together....Did you ever consider our allies like the UK, Israel, Philippines, France, Mexico, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Germany, Denmark, Netherlands, etc., it's seems that they allow openly Homosexuals to serve and yet have to problems of unit Cohesion? Why do you suppose that is?

[JacdCat]

Have to problems of unit cohesion?????

Didn't you read my comment?

I'm all for gays serving openly in the military, hell, we all had to shower with gay guys in highschool.

But on that, we should allow men and women to shower together as well.

It's only fair.

The kids in high school too.

I think gay guys are getting special treatment.

It's kinda like me pretending to be a girl and showering with all the other girls in highschool, and lying about not (sneaking a peak)

yea right.

[jusitke07]

Well, considering that our allies don't have a problem with Homosexuals serving openly, it's ironic how our DADT policy aligns with the military policies our some of our worst political rivalries like Russia, China, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Turkey, Pakistan, Vietnam, Yemen, Iran, etc. Although, we haven't gotten to the point of co-ed showers, but did you know that there are organizations in America and elswhere in the world that have co-ed showers?

[JacdCat]

Yeah.

But those co-ed showers are probably frowned upon by most americans, right?

And you can't blame those Americans. They are the product of their culture, society and parents.

They had no control in their up bringing, when the dendrites were making those connections. change will not come over night. I promise we won't see it within 40 or 50 years.

We can shout all we want, but have about as much a chance of convincing america to go pro-gay as they have of turning you anti-gay.

[jusitke07]

"Yeah, But those co-ed showers are probably frowned upon by most americans right?"

True, just like in the past most Americans frowned upon interracial marriages, and open Homosexuals. But nonetheless, co-ed showeres, in general, exist. Which goes to show, that with a little professionalism and maturity, co-ed showers can actually be tolerable in our society. How is American different from the European countries that allow openly Gay members to serve continually?

[jusitke07]

continue...and in response to rightlydivide08, based on my Biblical history, and interpretations homosexuality is not a sin. Please don't impose your interpretations on other, no human is righteous over another human. Those who question homosexuality and the Bible to watch the documentary film "FOR THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO." Trust me, there are proud Gay Christians out there, just as there are proud Straight Christian as Seventh Day Adventists, Presbetyrians, Lutherans, Catholics, Baptists...

[prarmyboy20]

And it is only considered to be a sin in the Bible for laying with another man and to not be married for that is considered pre-maritual sex which IS considered to be a sin. NOT the fact that a person of the same sex loves another of the same sex.

[drunkenboxer1985]

and that is actually a mistranslation. the original version in hebrew is far different than the version in the King James bible. And anyone that takes the bible seriously is just being foolish

[jusitke07]

continued...there's absolutely no way to turn a straight guy to a gay guy. That's just foolishness. If a guy grows an erection to a woman but not for a man, he's born straigth. If a man grows an erection for another man, but not for a woman, he's born gay. If a man grows an erection for both of the sexes, then he's born bisexual Science has pretty much proven that, and yet there are still naive folks out there that you can make a straight man gay If so then that particular man is closeted gay/bi

[jusitke07]

In response to navid500, situations in the locker room or in the open bay showers, if a straight (or a gay man) is being constantly stared at by another man, then he should do his duty and file for sexual harrassment, just like a woman would do if a man constantly stalk and stared at her. Not all straight men are not even bothered by the fact that they're in the shower room with gay men, they're pretty much secure and honest in their sexuality that's it's not a big deal to them (e.g. Sports gym)

[rightlydivide08]

Forgiveness can be found in jesus for those that live any sinful lifestyle yes homosexual is a sinful life style but its not any different than anyone who lives in sin just detestable to the one who created you--they slap God in the face saying tho you made me a man im really a women. Satan;s lies are believed all over the world. Though all people can serve in the military, and all peope can work in a job and the fact that that touch parts they already have,doesnt effect the job they still sin

[ryandombrowski]

sorry gay people.. it's not natural. it's disgusting. majority rules.. so get over it. the reason yall will never be a majority.. is uhh... you can't fuckin reproduce! lesbians have found a way around that.. but then again, in my opinion, lesbians are socially acceptable as long as they aren't dyke ass gothic bitches. don't waste your time talkin shit to me i wont come back to this video again

[erkekler]

Hello,

My name is Elaine Donnelly. I am a bogus expert on military affairs and a congenital busybody. I attend hearings in Washington and go around the entire country to spread disinformation and prejudice. Please give money to my absurd charade of a non-profit organization so that I can continue my sinister activities and indulge my psychosis; otherwise, my miserable life would serve no purpose and I would have to kill myself.

Thank you and God Bless America. -E.D.

[jusitke07]

Anyone who is willing to serve and die for their country, regardless of race, gender, ethnicity, or , should be allowed to serve without discrimination. Our history shows we allowed girlies and later we allowed the to join. Now we should let the s and butches join too without discrimination.

[navid500]

yea i agree...but it does raise some questions. should gay individuals shower seperate from those of the same sex? what about straight men who feel uncomfortable showering and changing in front of a homosexual man? it's just like a woman having to shower with men...it would make her uncomfortable.

[medic985]

Ok, heres the deal. Gay men and women have been in the military for years. Just like they exists in the civilian life. Is there separate showers at your local gym? No. So I think the best way for you to find out is to join the military.

[navid500]

yea well at the gym, i don't know who's gay and who isn't. if i knew someone was gay at the gym, maybe i wouldn't be as comfortable being naked around them. that's why maybe don't ask don't tell is the best way to go.

[medic985]

and the world revolves around you.....i don't think so. the dabate is not about what makes "you" feel comfortable, if that were the case there would be no human interaction of any kind. the issue is about equal rights, personally i don't even know why you are debating the issue, it has nothing to do with you unless your a service member.

[kramer362]

when saying "they" i was in fact referring to a gay person's fellow soldiers, not the soldier him/herself

[kramer362]

and it's not just important to service members. discrimination in the military is just another way to try and deny lgbt people equal treatment

[kramer362]

but getting rid of don't ask don't tell doesn't mean people have to be openly gay. people are already coming out to their fellow soldiers regardless of the policy based on whether or not they will be comfortable with it. The only change will be that people wouldn't be discharged based on the sole fact of being gay (conduct is different). The fact that gays have to hide an aspect of themself and cant talk about a boyfriend or girlfriend at home without fear of getting discharged is ridiculous.

[navid500]

yea i mean i personally wouldn't care if i was serving with gay people at all. i have had a few gay friends, and i never had any problems with them. the whole reason i commented on here was to get some views from both sides.

[jpegwrites]

That Donnalley woman got the Republican Congress so pissed off, they had to grit their teeth just not to come out and tell her she was nuts. We need to 'protect' our military against gays, the same military who are brave enough to risk their lives for America? Reducing the capability of the miliary because of some idiot who is 'protecting' our armed forces is a joke. This Donalley lady is Al-Quada's best ally: a nut whose ideas would weaken our military.

[5random1]

"Having openly gay members in the military will effect [affect] the moral of soldiers that are against homosexual behavior."

Then those soldiers "against homosexual behavior" should NOT serve. They're the people with the problem. People join the military to serve this country, not themselves and their personal beliefs. If someone is so immature and insecure about who they are, or who someone else is, then they are a real threat to unit effectiveness and have no place in the military.

[didles123]

Don't ask don't tell makes perfect sense. Having openly gay members in the military will effect the moral of soldiers that are against homosexual behavior.

[radicaldreamer009]

Your morals shouldn't be affected by how other people live their lives. I don't think gay people are out there complaining that heterosexual people affect their morals.

[didles123]

I meant "morale". The reality is that there's no need to express your sexuality in the military, and all it does it make some people uncomfortable.

[medic985]

So, straight people should have no pictures of their families displayed on their desks. They should not receive extra pay for being married or unmarried with a child. They should not wear wedding rings and have weddings on base....cause that makes me feel uncomfortble, because I DON'T HAVE THAT RIGHT!

Is that what you are saying?

[navid500]

no. look. i can't go and shower in the women's locker room at the gym. why? women would not feel comfortable being naked in there while i'm in there, because they feel like they're on display. the same way, a straight man may not be comfortable being naked when he knows that there is a gay man present. it's the same principle. i personally don't care if there are gay guys in the locker room with me. this is a commonly raised point by people in the military though, so it's just healthy discussion

[didles123]

But having weddings isn't expressing sexuality because gays can marry (and have). Marriage isn't an expression of sexuality but of lifelong commitment.

[DonkeyFist]

Yes let's fire the perfectly qualified doctors, soldiers, translators, and engineers in the army because they were born gay. The U.S. government did the same thing with black Americans in World War I and II so why not keep our prejudice traditions alive just for old time's sake.

[x11115]

i think it's stupid going around and displaying what sexuality you are in public. but they were making fun of the guy so he was just acting in defense. i also think it's stupid for gays to go around loudly and disclosing to everyone their gay... now that is stupid. It would be the same as a hetro going around telling strangers "i'm hetrosexual". sounds stupid doesn't it? they do have a right to serve in military but i can understand if others would dislike people saying stupid phrases.

[friendofthefunk]

do you really not understand that having pride in one's self is uniquely important to oppressed minorities who have been treated as inferior? and do you also not see that in our society open displays of heterosexuality are much more common than open displays of homosexuality?