FUCK YOU, BILL GOTHARD. I hope you meet someone whose child has schizophrenia. Look them in the eyes and say this shit. (Oh, right, I guess he'd probably enjoy it.)
Fascists like this only say these things about mental illness because they want to exploit people who have mental illnesses. Bill Gothard, and people like him, are a cancer upon the earth.
There's more scientific backing to mental illness than there is to a God, yet he believes in God and not mental illness? I think he's just full of shit and he knows it!
@prairiemark I think that irresponsibility can go along with mental illness, but oftentimes, the mental handicap is what makes them irresponsible. That isn't maybe ALWAYS the case with some people, but to lump schizophrenia to irresponsibility is beyond idiotic. I would say that alcoholism is more hooked to irresponsible behavior because many refuse to get help but even some of them are dealing with undiagnosed bi-polar conditions.
@Paula120906 I think wee both see the problems with the discusting view that mental illness is always related to sinful behavior. Sometimes our kidneys go bad and we get kindey failure and a buildup of toxins and other problems. Sometimes our knees go bad and we cant walk and are in pain. Sometimes our brains malfunction and we cant function well neurologically. In each case the person needs compassion and medical help, not condemnation.
For the truth about religion try Robert M. Price, ' The reason driven life ' or John W. Loftus or Victor J. Stenger, ' God, the failed hypothesis' . Also interesting to have a look at the 1500BCE papyrus of Ani, with its god Osiris who weighs the heart to decide who can pass to the land of the living.[ The need to know the names of the gods & the negative confession & other magic texts to get there]. James Frazer's 'The Golden Bough' and C.S. Lewis, 'Mere Christianity'
The description misquotes Bill Gothard's statements. If you wanted to outlaw any one medicine because it didn't work for everybody, all medicines would be outlawed. Critics of homeschooling are really grasping here. Abuses are common in public and private schools as well. In broad-population studies, statistics prove the methods, and the anecdotal evidence, like the complaints below, is a basis of improvement.
I agree that some people who are told they have mental illness begin to decline much faster due to the fact that they are told they have a mental illness, almost as an excuse, but I don't believe that people will certain illnesses is because of irresponsibility.
haha well you're kind of a control freak yourself.....
So you're mad at my post so you critique the one before that? You come back one/two hours later and add on? I see some serious anger issues there, and you will never listen to whatever reasoning I put out there.
And as I said before exceptions, not the general rule.
FYI, "Considering the way Bill Gothard's group works - seems like they tortured him insane." is a fragment, consider revising. Two can play at this game.
@Mia241 Homeschooling is the worst, most cruel, thing parents can do to a child. All people who are homeschooling should be routinely monitored for child abuse because they often beat their children and keep it hidden from the police because the children have no clue how in-ordinary it is to be routinely abused. If I had never been homeschooled - I would have had access to people to report the child sex ring to that wouldn't help cover it up. They managed to rape 30 boys over a decade.
@bloomingdedalus I was homeschooled, and I don't think it is cruel at all. In fact, if I could go back and pick my own form of education, I would choose to be homeschooled.
@JBFrenchhorn Watch Jesus Camp to know most of the reasons I am firmly opposed to homeschooling - beyond that it makes your child an easy target for ministers who are pedophiles - it also makes you an easy target for careful, debilitating brainwashing. If you watch Jesus Camp and have no problem with the methods that the home school children in it are subjected to - then I have nothing more to say to you other than you should never have children.
@bloomingdedalus You make a blanket statement and condemn all homeschoolers because of some you saw in Jesus Camp? We homeschooled our two oldest children, through high school and both of them went on to enter college and one got a masters degree. In fact the public education makes children much easier targets for brainwashing. Part of the homeshooling process for us was to teach our children how to think for themselves. The methods in Jesus Camp are not universal in homeschooling.
@Fedproman And I was homeschooled as well, and I believe it should be illegal. Please tell me how having a environment of diverse information inputs is more conducive to brainwashing than having a single teacher for many years. I make these statements based on those I have met who have been homeschooled as well.
@bloomingdedalus That is still anecdotal evidence. Certainly homeschooling is not for everyone. If you only had one teacher that is sad and you probably missed out. My children had many teachers and were allowed to explore their world moving around and experiencing many things outside of a static classroom alone. Much more of a collection of diverse information than that of the government schools who as I am sure you are aware have very restrictive guidelines on what they are going to teach.
@Fedproman Yes, and the protection of children should be one of the government's top priorities. Simply because you were not a crook or a zealot in your homeschooling doesn't mean that other children escape this fate. I was forced to work 30-40 hours a week while homeschooled, raped by a pedophile ring in my church, and told that I was going to hell for having been raped, which I believed. And, firmly believed the world was going to end by the time I was 20.
@bloomingdedalus My heart breaks for you. By contrast my homeschooled life was a picnic -- but I was still miserable and completely self taught with no accountability. I can hardly imagine anything more monstrous than what happened to you. I totally agree that there needs to be more accountability, exactly the kind of "big government" that so many of these right wing extremist homeschoolers are so paranoid about. Little do they know there's good reason for the government to be concerned.
@Fedproman The preceding comment is why education must be regulated to some extent - because it can be out of control as Jesus Camp and Gothard exemplify. In my home town, a couple was arrested after beating to death their homeschool daughter with air conditioning tubing for making mistakes in their learning. The lack of regulation is what makes it unacceptable. I don't care if people have been successful, many children have been destroyed and brainwashed by it.
@bloomingdedalus In my ideal world homeschooling would definitely be illegal, just as you suggest. But I fear that will never be a reality, especially in the Bible belt states. You are so right that it makes it all too easy for abuse to slip below the radar. Plenty of extremists have home births and never even report their children's existence, because they believe Social Security numbers are somehow linked to the mark of the beast. When you get out of that world, you see how truly crazy it is.
@mimmar3891 I agree. I do not support homeschooling because I think kids need to learn to be away from Mom & interact with adults of all walks of life-not just those raised in fundamentalist Christianity. I also know that there are a good number of homeschooling Moms who do not have any college background whatsoever. Some might not have finished high school themselves. I doubt what kind of education Michelle Duggar can provide her 19 children.
@Paula120906 I was homeschooled by Christian parents (both of whom are college educated). One of my best friends is Muslim, the other's an Atheist. There are many responsible parents who do a better job of educating their children than the average public school would. Check out John Taylor Gatto's books for some reasons public schools aren't that awesome. :P But as far as Michelle Duggar goes, her kids are learning the basics. They use ATI's curriculum.
@MissJemimaPuddleduck I won't compare your homeschooling experience to the Duggar's because if your parents were college educated, that is more education than Michelle has. Most parents can't teach all subjects and when you have 19 children, the kids simply aren't going to get a good education.Many believe (including myself) that ATI is a cult-based curriculum. Gothard is (by most standards) a cultish guy. I'd question the materials. I'm glad your exp worked though.
@Paula120906 Oh yes ATI is quite bad, but the kids are learning math and how to read. :P That's all I meant. Although what knowledge of history and science they will receive will be skewed.
You are right, parents cannot teach all subjects (not even college educated ones), which is why they have DVD and textbook teachers to do it for them. It's similar to distance learning. :)
@Paula120906 And in addition, home school parents usually use something like Khan Academy, the state curriculum, or a combination of various courses on DVD and in textbooks. It really can work very well, because they can create a curriculum that works for their child's individual learning style. The parent doesn't need to be actively involved in teaching, so much as guiding the student in which courses to take, and making sure he or she is doing the work, etc.
@mimmar3891 This is very extreme. :P My mother gave birth to me in her home with the assistance of a midwife. I have a birth certificate. And I was home schooled, which was a good experience for me. It is for many people. And there are lots of people for whom a public school experience is every bit as bad as the extremist home schooler's. In my ideal world, the work "illegal" wouldn't exist. People would watch out for each other, and abuse wouldn't happen.
So we ban homeschooling because of a couple of freaks? So you base whether something should be allowed or illegal on some out-of-line exceptions? FYI, two of the people Matthew Murray killed were also homeschooled, they didn't turn into serial killers. You can't base it on that. There has to be a balance: imo Gothard is waaaay out there, but not every homeschooler is.
@Mia241 Until the CIA sees the potential in your child to become an experiment given his isolation from standard culture and uses you, your family and children for their various plots which range from the absurd to the damned malicious.
bloomingdedalus said: "You guys only homeschool your kids so you can beat them into submission like all homeschooling families."
I was homeschooled: not under Gothard thank goodness. But seriously?! Isn't that comment a little too broad? Not every homeschool family is like that. So don't say they are. End of story.
Some parents shouldn't homeschool, it takes serious dedication and discipline. But me and my siblings are much smarter academic wise then just about everyone at my church.
@bloomingdedalus That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. One serial killer was homeschooled so it should be illegal. How many of the serial killers were in the public school system?! You can't point a finger at homeschooling, due to that. Churches aren't stupid. They make you feel better about yourself. I know that God is real and I have faith, but even if I didn't I still think the church community and promoting good behaviors is a good thing.
Bill doesn't believe this. If he did he wouldn't of had a satantic ritual abuse counsler and a shrink in Indianapolis. His saying doesnt account for demon possesion and severe brain damage and other patholgical disorders. One study doesn't make it definitive. Bill is obviously not a scientist.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8-9 in the King James Bible).
I would say he is confirming what many who counsel others have found to be absolutely true. The motives of man come from the heart. The brain becomes incoherent when it justifies what our heart knows to be wrong. Through counseling hundreds of "patients" I have found this to be true. When they understand with their heart their behavior and are held accountable for it, there is a tremendous sobering of thought. They start thinking more coherently - some quicker than others.
I would be a little more compassionate than that - sometimes people have been treated in such a way they can become confused - they just need help in sorting out the truth - I'm speaking from experience. I will say that the psychiatric establishment's pills only allowed people to point the finger of blame at my non-existent "mental illness" rather than take a look at their own behavior. I know now I have choices. It doesn't mean there isn't pain, but I know now emotional pain is not "illness".
Depression, low self esteem, delusional disorder and many other emotional states are illnesses caused by distorted thinking which leads to a chemical imbalance in the brain. They may lead to emotional states that you would describe as confused, but there is no doubt that they are illnesses. Fortunately they can be cured with the right therapy and in some case the use of drugs can help.
believerornot-If "distorted thinking...leads to a chemical imbalance in the brain" then learning to think right, not a pill, will correct that imbalance. I have been through this, and pills do not help sort things out. It takes a lot of hard mental work and you need your wits about you while doing it - drugs only cloud the thinking process.
I totally agree. The best and most effective method (now conclusively proven by peer review) is Behavioural cognitive therapy. Thanks to that therapy I recovered from a 20 year depression (that went from bad to worse over time), sparked by my loss of faith. I have been without depression and happy now for almost 6 years.
Its only in very severe cases often involving mild to severe delusional disorder, where the patient will not admit a problem or receive treatment where drugs become necessary. Anti psychotics cause the patient to have a temporary remission
of delusion and this then makes them open to therapy. Once the therapy has began to become effective the drugs are reduced and then stopped, leaving a patient in therapy until cured, which averages at 6 months time span.
That is bullshit. How many years have you studied actual, real, behavioural cognitive psychology, rather than the make believe crap you are talking about?
You are a danger to those you advise. Please desists immediately and seek treatment your self before somebody gets hurt.
This guy obviously has no understanding of brain chemistry, brain structure, basic genetics,or even the way outside influences can affect and disrupt thought processes such as we see in depression or in the more extreme cases, among those brainwashed.
This man should be in prison for promoting lies that could lead to hate crime.
What test can be used to diagnose a "mental illness"? Since when do emotions qualify a person for being "sick"? I don't know about irresponsibility being the culprit, but speaking from experience I do know that it comes down to knowing how to properly deal with our emotions. People get depressed for a reason, generally it is something wrong with their environment or relationships. Pills will do nothing to help sort things out.
Normal healthy people disregard negative thinking and focus on reality, but depression is caused by circumstances that lead the victim to pay attention to negative thinking. These thought processes then begin to repeat which creates a chemical imbalance which leads to even more negative thinking. Drugs can help but the most effective cure is behavioural cognitive therapy.
Once a person learns to control what thoughts to pay attention to environment becomes irrelevant.
Actually, my depression was caused by the confusion of not understanding the dynamics in my dysfunctional family relationships - once I realized a pill was not the answer, I could focus on how to deal with how I needed to change those relationships to make them better, and also that pain and grief were going to be a natural part of that process, I got better. No pill was going to do the difficult work that I needed to do to see what was going on and change how I responded to my mother.
The pills kept people focused on the fictional "chemical imbalance" and not on the issues.
Rereading the journals I'd kept was vital; I could see the patterns in my relationships that were repeated over and over and I knew I could not keep responding in the same way just to have peace with my mother. She needed to be responsible for her own behavior, and I needed to hold her accountable, not take responsibility for everything that went wrong between us.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:9 in the King James Bible). Bill Gothard is accursed because he is preaching another gospel.
Should Gothard be diagnosed with Schizophrenia for such IRRESPONSIBLE teachings? Is this guy even real? Who has seen him other than a projection on a screen? I think he is a computer graphic, asexual, mommies boy, a fresh haircut, clean fingernails, always ready for Sunday School.
And he's ever so PRECISE in his manner of speech. If you attempt to believe and live by his teachings prepare to go nuts.
I'll concede this much to Baal Gothard. You should never believe the life story of someone whose troubles are ALL somebody else's fault. I don't need Baal Gothard to teach me that! A simple look at the law of averages is all it takes!
The sheep may be lost, but the shepherd will never stop looking until He finds His sheep. Jesus would never blame an illness on irresponsibility. The loving Father would never forsake his child.
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He's loving but also just. If we reject his salvation we're punching our own ticket to hell. Many people justify irresponsibility by calling it illness. Jesus is not one of those people. It's wishful thinking to believe he'd help someone lie to themselves so they can "escape" their feelings of guilt.
First of all, these "mental illnesses" are psychiatric propaganda used to manipulate people (a form of eugenics). The Bible condemns this form of eugenics known as psychiatry in James 2:9 because it is a form of elitism.
Read Explaining colours to a blind man. Not only will it enlighten many as to what living with a mental illness and chronic fatigue syndrome is like, it also gives comfort to those sufferers who think there is no hope and that they are alone. It is very informative, sometimes shocking but also very funny in parts. All in all, a good read and highly recommended.
I am a perfectly responsible person. I am mentally ill. (WHAT NOW??) Bill Gotthard is an idiot who does not understand the true nature of mental illness. This entire idea is a bunch of bulls**t. THis makes it sound as if the illness is the persons fault. Are you trying to tell me that I caused my own suffering? That I chose it, and can just "snap out of it?" Ok, then "it's just diabetes, get over it! Turn your life around and your fine!" Yeah, right. I've tried that, numbskull. No cure yet. >:(
You're only illness is that you will not repent from your wicked life. You've decided that there are certain sins that you must keep in your life. Unless you renounce them and accept Christ, you will never find a "cure" for your "mental illness." Harsh words, but full of truth...and you know that they are true...
Um, reality check hun, but you don't know a thing about me! I happen to be a Roman Catholic who was recently absolved of all sins. And yet, my mental illness? IT STILL EXISTS. I don't know who's brain-washing you, but even Jesus accepts mental illness as real, the Catholic Church accepts mental illness as real. I don't know what lies you've been fed, but I suggest you open your eyes to the reality. I don't know what your problem is, but mental illness is REAL. And it has nothing to do with sins.
The Church absolved me of my sins, don't be stupid. And I hope you realize that the bible was written years and years ago by men who didn't properly understand the world around them. Just because God inspired it doesn't mean that the book is infallible. The men Jesus drove demons out of? Those were schizophrenics, and the demons were their mental illness. I have no direct proof, but let's just say it's a spiritual inclination. The bible isn't meant to be taken literally, ask any learned priest.
Crafty side stepping. Now, back to your assertion that "Jesus accepts mental illness as real." Can you please direct me to the passage in the Scriptures where I can find that? Waiting...
Remember the men with demons? Jesus healed them, he forgave them. However, as I stated earlier, there is no direct passage in the bible, however if the Catholic Church, Chirst's own foundation accepts mental illness as a real and serious issue, then I believe it is safe to say that Jesus would as well.
So, Jesus follows the opinions of leaders in the Roman Catholic Church? If not, you're assertion is still dangling in the wind, unsupported and ill-spoken...
You said:
"Jesus accepts mental illness as real."
You have yet to show me where he ever said or taught this foolishness.
Remember, the Roman Catholic Church at one time supported the burning of heretics. Did Christ support setting fire to non-Christians or burning alive those who do not accept "the authority of popes and councils?"
As stated, I have no direct proof. However, the definition of faith is believing without proof. I'm afraid you have no proof Jesus ever existed, yet we both believe he did. Where is your proof that Jesus doesn't accept mental illness, that he blames it all on sin. I'm afraid the bible is nothing more than what humanity has made it to be, our individual interpretation of it. You have no proof of your assertions, and neither do I, however proof is irrelevant, as this is a matter of faith, not fact
Um, Jesus gave the Church that authority, when he declared Peter the Rock on which he would build his Church. And no offense, but where in the bible does it ever say that Jesus condemns the mentally ill? Because it also doesn't say that. Somehow, I have trouble believing that Jesus would condemn the ill, when he never did any such thing in your precious scriptures. Don't use God as an excuse for your bigotry.
How can a book that is "not infallible" and "should not be taken literally" impart authority to absolve sins? That doesn't make any sense.
So your hope for going to heaven depends on authority granted to the Roman Catholic Church by a book you say is "not infallible" and "should not be taken literally?"
My hope for going to heaven depends on the way I live my life, not on the authority of a church, that, yes, is probably full of mistakes. However, when a person goes to confession in a Church, the priest doesn't forgive them, God does. The priest is just speaking through Jesus. Oh, and lets not forget that I do confess my sins, and I do get forgiven. And as stated earlier, my mental illness remains as real as ever. So I suggest you consider shutting you mouth before it gets in the wrong place.
Did you not see what I wrote? The priest doesn't forgive the sins, God does. The priest acts as a mediator. And how do you know what God thinks and feels about this issue? If you are ignorent enough to think mental illnesses are results of sin, then are you sorely misguided. It is a chemical imbalance, uncontrollable, like cancer or diabetes. You would never say they were caused by sin, so why should a mental disease be any different? Don't use God to justify your ignorence and bigotry.
Bible says: There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.
Hiding from responsibility is choosing to live in a kind of darkness-this will exacerbate certain kinds of mental illness. Others indeed may be physiological as you're saying. Some mental illness is caused by sin. Not all. Some.
Jesus didn't just preach forgiveness though, but also repentance/change. Faith in Him alone results in a changed heart..we still can fall into sin, but that shouldn't be our aspiration. :)
Well at least you're nicer about it. However, I stand by what I said, that mental illnesses themselves are not sinful, and living with one is not a shameful or sinful act. Unless Jesus descends from Heaven and tells me I am wrong, I will stand by what I have said.
There's no disagreement here. I'm not attacking you or saying your sinful because your mentally ill. We're all sinful.
There's a science book called, "The Brain that changes itself" you might find interesting. I sure did. If I compromise with evil once, I can start to justify myself in my mind and I have less inhibitions stopping me from doing something evil again because my actions and thoughts have changed my brain.
Oh, for God's sakes, can't you fundamentalist religious nuts just for once in your lives accept some else's beliefs for what they are? I never asked you a goddamn thing, so quit spouting your useless drivel to me. I'm done with putting up with your arrogance and your judgemental cruelty, so just shut the fuck up and get out of my life! And don't dismiss the facts, mental illnesses are real, and sufferers ought to be shown compassion; something you all seem to be incapable of. Have a nice life.
WickedWitchElphaba I could not agree more. They claim to follow a god who is all about compassion and tells them to be compassionate yet they take the completely opposite stance when it comes to people around them.
They sicken me!
I think the contradictions in their religion make them suffer from mental illness.
The "unnamed Jewish Psychiatrist" is Thomas Szasz, Professor Emeritus of Psychiatry at the State University of New York Health Science Center in Syracuse, New York. He is the one that equated mental illness to varying levels of irresponsibility.
I am thinking in particular of somebody who ran away from home at the age of 13 to escape her lecherous stepfather. Needless to say she was in dire straits on the streets when she encountered a street ministry and made her profession of faith. She was taken in by a Christian household and did well at first.
At Sunday School, she won a scholarship to attend Baal Gothard's institute, where she went to learn how to make her lifr pleasing to the Lord. She decided to follow his advice and return home, to submit to her stepfather as unto the Lord.
A few years later, she got married. Her husband quickly became highly abusive. One afternoon she was fixing dinner, cutting up meat for the stew when her husband came home early -- again. She went to greet him and it was plain that he was drunk -- again. He began finding fault with her housekeeping and beat her up -- again.
Then he picked her up, slung her over his shoulder, and carried her to the bedroom where he tore off her clothes and raped her -- again. Then he passed out in a drunken stupor with his face in an idiot grin facing the ceiling -- again. She staggered out of the bedroom and passed near the door to the kitchen where her eye lit on the butcher knife she had been using upon his arrival. She picked it up, went back to the bedroom, and opened his throat from ear to ear.
The jury let her off on a "Twinkie defense" (temporary insanity, diminished capacity). The judge ordered her to be committed to a mental institution.
When I met her online, she had just been released from the institution. She wanted me to help her to buy a gun so that she could hunt down Baal Gothard and kill him.
The word of God says that we are to correct one another in love and gentleness, not saying people we disagree with will go to hell or ought to be shot. Look at the log in your own eye before speaking about the speck in your brother's eye. People see this judgmental attitude a small group of you are displaying here and they run screaming as fast as they can from Jesus. Who would want to join some of you lot? Jesus said the world will know us and Him by our love for one another. Blessings!
I am a Christian, not a Gandhian. If you do not know the difference between the Man from Galilee and that little pedophile from India, then what are you?
At the very least, Jesus never said that you reject Him if you reject Gandhi. And He never said that He would deny the one who denies Gandhi. So if the only authority you have for your nebulous teachings is that of a little pedophile, you need not be taken seriously.
I am no follower of men, but I value their contributions in their limited understanding of things. I know Bill has some extreme ideas that I don't completely agree with but he is fellow brother in Christ that I discern has a true heart for God. I enjoyed his chalk talks. I don't have a problem with people discussing doctrine. Nobody would if done in love and gentleness, but what I see going on many times by Christians who remain anonymous is a lot of venom & hatred like these last few comments
How can you have a true heart for God and then hurtfully debase the suffering of others? I'm a Christian who's had a depressive illness for 28 years and I've had alleged Christians trying to correct me in 'love and gentleness' (ie refusing to speak to, or acknowledge me) If that's what Gothard meant by irresponsibility then he can start with most churches on the subject of MI. If someone you love was ill and the doctor called them irresponsible, what then? Not impressed?
bill gothard is a satanic free mason. It's amazing how the stupid fake cristians follow him to hell gladly. Just like that son of the devil billy graham. Suckers..! Wolves in sheeps clothing every one last of them.
I am shocked and surprised by the conduct of people who call themselves Christians when they can remain anonymous like this. Be sure, God sees who you are. I can't go to your pastor and hold you guys accountable for your actions but I do invite you to go to my blog site at the spotless bride period word press period com to learn how to prepare yourselves to be spotless brides before Jesus' return. This kind of talk is not from the Spirit of God but is divisive and unloving, for God is Love.
Bill Gothard is a legalistc control freak!!! He follows none of his own teachings and he is worshiped by his followers like God. Yes God. They think he is the Lord of all creation's "mouthpiece". I've homeschooled all my life and have stayed as far away from Gothard and his teachings as possible. I know many families that have escaped the bondage of IBLP, but I also know many who are still very blinded. God doesn't base His love for us on our princples. He loves us because we're His children.
@ffbrockr18 Unfortunately - my whole county is run by this guy's teachings. I was homeschooled under Gothard - and they never stop trying to hurt you - ever.
@ffbrockr18 Also - I was homeschooled - and not a day goes by that I don't absolutely hate my parents for doing it to me - it's child abuse - you shouldn't do it.
@ffbrockr18 You guys only homeschool your kids so you can beat them into submission like all homeschooling families. It's a terrible thing to do to a child - I was homeschooled and I absolutely despise the people who did it to me.
@bloomingdedalus Ummm What are you talking about?? I have no kids. I just said i was homeschooled. I was homeschooled because all of the schools where I live absolutely suck. My parents are totally normal. Not abusive at all. Don't take your bad experience and make that the norm for all homeschooling.
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I have to be honest... I attended one of his seminars with an open heart and an open mind. In the middle, the Holy Spirit stood me up and walked me out of there. That is the truth. So, friends, please look up his teachings and see if they really "gel" with what the bible says. Ask God to give you wisdom. Then you will know the truth.
I totally agree with you!! None of his teachings are are Biblical. He takes scripture and twists it around. It's sad that so many people are blinded by one MAN!!!!!!!
I wish Mr. Gothard's complete response could be heard. He goes on to say warehousing people with drugs and then making them totally dependant on professional care did not work. Encouraging people to reduce their dependance on medication and become self reliant works in many cases. He makes it abundantly clear NOT all people with acute mental illness can recover in this manner. However, many can recover and do well.
So now, looking back on how my life has gone, I would just like to say:
FUCK YOU Bill Gothard. You are an accomplice to stealing a happy childhood. I never knew what it was like to have so much rage, until I was forced to endure your teachings in my everyday family life.
May God have mercy on your soul, for what you did to me.
Twig, as I may have stated before, I was 17 when I went through it. I eventually researched his "biblical principles". The more you look at it, the more you realize that Gothard's tripe has nothing to do with Jesus & the Bible, and everything to do with the protection of vested economic interests. That's why people like him are so against things such as organized labor unions: they threaten the vested interests of his biggest donors.
Thanks for speaking out. More people need to do so.
I was moved by your story. I am truly sorry & hope you are doing better in your health & haven't abandoned God because of this. This sort of pain is all too common when a relationship with Jesus becomes a religious exercise. I don't think that was Gothard's intent, but many people even take the perfect doctrine in the Bible and make it the letter of the law which kills without the Spirit of God. You can find peace in this. I counsel people affected by the disease of religion back to Christ.
I was homeschooled 1st-12th grade by my loving right-wing parents. I was pretty much forced to attend his seminars. We used his materials in our Bible studies, and as part of our school studies.
I studied that shit long and hard. I never liked it, but I wanted my parents especially to view me as a good Christian.
So it was extremely bewildering to me to experience mental degradation, until I was finally diagnosed with bipolar disorder. I was a fucking kid, I didn't know what was going on.
jmkr1979, if you seriously believe that if someone thinks Gothard is a false teacher it qualifies them as having doubtful salvation, then you are an ignorant fool. When did Gothard become a Christ figure? Grow up. That 'I doubt your salvation' line is so old and only scared, insecure and brainwashed christians use that manipulative rhetoric. Christians like you give us all a bad name. Gothard sucks. Jesus rules. Matthew Holmes
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If you speak evil against Bill Gothard, you testify of yourself that you cannot recognize truth. The most likely reason for this is having a desire to harbour sin in your life.
Psalm 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
Amen, I gave up CCM back in the late 80s and have never regretted it. It is like a black hole that is sucking the churches youth into it. I have no regrets. A life of holiness is a wonderful life. Being married to #1 for 13yrs and having 4 beutiful children raised without a TV and Rot-n-roll music isn't so bad. My brother didn't heed and has 3 wives and children scattered around the country with a lot of child support to pay. The narrow way is really not that bad. His yoke is easy! Glory to God!
I use to think that this nut job could walk on water (when I was young . . . and very stupid). I can not image the damage that he has done to children and families with his stupid thoughts.
Bill Gothard may be a type of antichrist as mentioned in the following passages: Matthew 24:5. Matthew 24:23. Matthew 24:24. Matthew 24:26. Mark 13:6. Mark 13:21. Mark 13:22. Luke 21:8. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12. 1 John 2:18. 1 John 2:22. 1 John 4:3. 2 John 7.
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um why don't you post the whole seminar so you can better understand what he is talking about. because you have taken it out of context as with alot of his stuff. and I think ppl can't take this because they know its the truth.
"I think ppl can't take this because they know its the truth. "
I sat through the entire thing 3 times, as I indicated.This is only the tip of his absurd iceberg. Two of my favorites:
1. The verse about "heaping coals up0n the head" of those who persecute you actually refers to "an ancient custom". Which NO historian can verify.
2. The idea that medical doctors should forgo med school and "apprentice". How jolly! Let's return to the 'good old days' when physicians killed more than diseases.
Gothard has mental illness. Why should we take marriage, sex and children-raising advice from a man who claims to be celebate, has never married and has never had kids. It's like a soldier who's never seen action telling Vietnam vet's how to fight jungle warfare, just because he's read a book on. Gothard is a total jerk-off.
FUCK YOU, BILL GOTHARD. I hope you meet someone whose child has schizophrenia. Look them in the eyes and say this shit. (Oh, right, I guess he'd probably enjoy it.)
Fascists like this only say these things about mental illness because they want to exploit people who have mental illnesses. Bill Gothard, and people like him, are a cancer upon the earth.
amazinggoatgirl 2 days ago
Hahahaha. XD I can't even. This is like as good as the people who say mental illness is caused by evil spirits.
MissJemimaPuddleduck 1 month ago
Just proves that John is an idiot. He has been a round last 30 or 40 year miss quoting the Bible. Its a real cult .
TheSolarmechanic 1 month ago
I wonder if Gothards son was mentally ill when he seduced six or seven of Gothards staff members over several months?
prairiemark 1 month ago
There's more scientific backing to mental illness than there is to a God, yet he believes in God and not mental illness? I think he's just full of shit and he knows it!
nafets1218 2 months ago
Schizophrenia is a result of a person not being responsible? This irrationa view is absurd and harmful.
prairiemark 3 months ago
@prairiemark I think that irresponsibility can go along with mental illness, but oftentimes, the mental handicap is what makes them irresponsible. That isn't maybe ALWAYS the case with some people, but to lump schizophrenia to irresponsibility is beyond idiotic. I would say that alcoholism is more hooked to irresponsible behavior because many refuse to get help but even some of them are dealing with undiagnosed bi-polar conditions.
Paula120906 3 months ago
@Paula120906 I think wee both see the problems with the discusting view that mental illness is always related to sinful behavior. Sometimes our kidneys go bad and we get kindey failure and a buildup of toxins and other problems. Sometimes our knees go bad and we cant walk and are in pain. Sometimes our brains malfunction and we cant function well neurologically. In each case the person needs compassion and medical help, not condemnation.
prairiemark 3 months ago
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For the truth about religion try Robert M. Price, ' The reason driven life ' or John W. Loftus or Victor J. Stenger, ' God, the failed hypothesis' . Also interesting to have a look at the 1500BCE papyrus of Ani, with its god Osiris who weighs the heart to decide who can pass to the land of the living.[ The need to know the names of the gods & the negative confession & other magic texts to get there]. James Frazer's 'The Golden Bough' and C.S. Lewis, 'Mere Christianity'
zytigon 5 months ago
The description misquotes Bill Gothard's statements. If you wanted to outlaw any one medicine because it didn't work for everybody, all medicines would be outlawed. Critics of homeschooling are really grasping here. Abuses are common in public and private schools as well. In broad-population studies, statistics prove the methods, and the anecdotal evidence, like the complaints below, is a basis of improvement.
marbanak 7 months ago
He said some Jewish guy wrote about the mental stuff. . .
gabeandlaiaburke 1 year ago
I agree that some people who are told they have mental illness begin to decline much faster due to the fact that they are told they have a mental illness, almost as an excuse, but I don't believe that people will certain illnesses is because of irresponsibility.
Sarah99ification 1 year ago
@bloomingdedalus
haha well you're kind of a control freak yourself.....
So you're mad at my post so you critique the one before that? You come back one/two hours later and add on? I see some serious anger issues there, and you will never listen to whatever reasoning I put out there.
And as I said before exceptions, not the general rule.
FYI, "Considering the way Bill Gothard's group works - seems like they tortured him insane." is a fragment, consider revising. Two can play at this game.
Mia241 1 year ago
@Mia241 Homeschooling is the worst, most cruel, thing parents can do to a child. All people who are homeschooling should be routinely monitored for child abuse because they often beat their children and keep it hidden from the police because the children have no clue how in-ordinary it is to be routinely abused. If I had never been homeschooled - I would have had access to people to report the child sex ring to that wouldn't help cover it up. They managed to rape 30 boys over a decade.
bloomingdedalus 1 year ago
@bloomingdedalus I was homeschooled, and I don't think it is cruel at all. In fact, if I could go back and pick my own form of education, I would choose to be homeschooled.
JBFrenchhorn 1 year ago
@JBFrenchhorn And I was homeschooled and would make it illegal.
bloomingdedalus 1 year ago
@JBFrenchhorn Watch Jesus Camp to know most of the reasons I am firmly opposed to homeschooling - beyond that it makes your child an easy target for ministers who are pedophiles - it also makes you an easy target for careful, debilitating brainwashing. If you watch Jesus Camp and have no problem with the methods that the home school children in it are subjected to - then I have nothing more to say to you other than you should never have children.
bloomingdedalus 1 year ago
@bloomingdedalus You make a blanket statement and condemn all homeschoolers because of some you saw in Jesus Camp? We homeschooled our two oldest children, through high school and both of them went on to enter college and one got a masters degree. In fact the public education makes children much easier targets for brainwashing. Part of the homeshooling process for us was to teach our children how to think for themselves. The methods in Jesus Camp are not universal in homeschooling.
Fedproman 1 year ago
@Fedproman And I was homeschooled as well, and I believe it should be illegal. Please tell me how having a environment of diverse information inputs is more conducive to brainwashing than having a single teacher for many years. I make these statements based on those I have met who have been homeschooled as well.
bloomingdedalus 1 year ago
@bloomingdedalus That is still anecdotal evidence. Certainly homeschooling is not for everyone. If you only had one teacher that is sad and you probably missed out. My children had many teachers and were allowed to explore their world moving around and experiencing many things outside of a static classroom alone. Much more of a collection of diverse information than that of the government schools who as I am sure you are aware have very restrictive guidelines on what they are going to teach.
Fedproman 1 year ago
@Fedproman Yes, and the protection of children should be one of the government's top priorities. Simply because you were not a crook or a zealot in your homeschooling doesn't mean that other children escape this fate. I was forced to work 30-40 hours a week while homeschooled, raped by a pedophile ring in my church, and told that I was going to hell for having been raped, which I believed. And, firmly believed the world was going to end by the time I was 20.
bloomingdedalus 1 year ago
@bloomingdedalus My heart breaks for you. By contrast my homeschooled life was a picnic -- but I was still miserable and completely self taught with no accountability. I can hardly imagine anything more monstrous than what happened to you. I totally agree that there needs to be more accountability, exactly the kind of "big government" that so many of these right wing extremist homeschoolers are so paranoid about. Little do they know there's good reason for the government to be concerned.
mimmar3891 6 months ago
@Fedproman The preceding comment is why education must be regulated to some extent - because it can be out of control as Jesus Camp and Gothard exemplify. In my home town, a couple was arrested after beating to death their homeschool daughter with air conditioning tubing for making mistakes in their learning. The lack of regulation is what makes it unacceptable. I don't care if people have been successful, many children have been destroyed and brainwashed by it.
bloomingdedalus 1 year ago
@bloomingdedalus In my ideal world homeschooling would definitely be illegal, just as you suggest. But I fear that will never be a reality, especially in the Bible belt states. You are so right that it makes it all too easy for abuse to slip below the radar. Plenty of extremists have home births and never even report their children's existence, because they believe Social Security numbers are somehow linked to the mark of the beast. When you get out of that world, you see how truly crazy it is.
mimmar3891 6 months ago
@mimmar3891 I agree. I do not support homeschooling because I think kids need to learn to be away from Mom & interact with adults of all walks of life-not just those raised in fundamentalist Christianity. I also know that there are a good number of homeschooling Moms who do not have any college background whatsoever. Some might not have finished high school themselves. I doubt what kind of education Michelle Duggar can provide her 19 children.
Paula120906 3 months ago
@Paula120906 I was homeschooled by Christian parents (both of whom are college educated). One of my best friends is Muslim, the other's an Atheist. There are many responsible parents who do a better job of educating their children than the average public school would. Check out John Taylor Gatto's books for some reasons public schools aren't that awesome. :P But as far as Michelle Duggar goes, her kids are learning the basics. They use ATI's curriculum.
MissJemimaPuddleduck 1 month ago
@MissJemimaPuddleduck I won't compare your homeschooling experience to the Duggar's because if your parents were college educated, that is more education than Michelle has. Most parents can't teach all subjects and when you have 19 children, the kids simply aren't going to get a good education.Many believe (including myself) that ATI is a cult-based curriculum. Gothard is (by most standards) a cultish guy. I'd question the materials. I'm glad your exp worked though.
Paula120906 1 month ago
@Paula120906 Oh yes ATI is quite bad, but the kids are learning math and how to read. :P That's all I meant. Although what knowledge of history and science they will receive will be skewed.
You are right, parents cannot teach all subjects (not even college educated ones), which is why they have DVD and textbook teachers to do it for them. It's similar to distance learning. :)
MissJemimaPuddleduck 1 month ago
@Paula120906 And in addition, home school parents usually use something like Khan Academy, the state curriculum, or a combination of various courses on DVD and in textbooks. It really can work very well, because they can create a curriculum that works for their child's individual learning style. The parent doesn't need to be actively involved in teaching, so much as guiding the student in which courses to take, and making sure he or she is doing the work, etc.
MissJemimaPuddleduck 1 month ago
@mimmar3891 This is very extreme. :P My mother gave birth to me in her home with the assistance of a midwife. I have a birth certificate. And I was home schooled, which was a good experience for me. It is for many people. And there are lots of people for whom a public school experience is every bit as bad as the extremist home schooler's. In my ideal world, the work "illegal" wouldn't exist. People would watch out for each other, and abuse wouldn't happen.
MissJemimaPuddleduck 1 month ago
@bloomingdedalus
So we ban homeschooling because of a couple of freaks? So you base whether something should be allowed or illegal on some out-of-line exceptions? FYI, two of the people Matthew Murray killed were also homeschooled, they didn't turn into serial killers. You can't base it on that. There has to be a balance: imo Gothard is waaaay out there, but not every homeschooler is.
Mia241 1 year ago
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bloomingdedalus 1 year ago
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bloomingdedalus 1 year ago
@Mia241 Until the CIA sees the potential in your child to become an experiment given his isolation from standard culture and uses you, your family and children for their various plots which range from the absurd to the damned malicious.
bloomingdedalus 1 year ago
bloomingdedalus said: "You guys only homeschool your kids so you can beat them into submission like all homeschooling families."
I was homeschooled: not under Gothard thank goodness. But seriously?! Isn't that comment a little too broad? Not every homeschool family is like that. So don't say they are. End of story.
Some parents shouldn't homeschool, it takes serious dedication and discipline. But me and my siblings are much smarter academic wise then just about everyone at my church.
Mia241 1 year ago
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bloomingdedalus 1 year ago
@bloomingdedalus That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. One serial killer was homeschooled so it should be illegal. How many of the serial killers were in the public school system?! You can't point a finger at homeschooling, due to that. Churches aren't stupid. They make you feel better about yourself. I know that God is real and I have faith, but even if I didn't I still think the church community and promoting good behaviors is a good thing.
Sarah99ification 1 year ago
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bloomingdedalus 1 year ago
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bloomingdedalus 1 year ago
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bloomingdedalus 1 year ago
Bill Gothard is the best spiritual and biblical man speaker I´ve ever meet. Keep on it Dr. Bill please continue speaking the truth from the Bible.
beypal01 1 year ago
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Kyouryuu5000 1 year ago
BTW, beware of anyone who tries to refer to him as "Doctor" Bill Gothard. That is pure and unadulturated bullshit.
His "doctorate" is from an unaccredited school. He's no more a legitimate "doctor" than Irwin Corey is a legitimate "professor".
BenAliGtor 1 year ago
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selkiemoony 2 years ago
Bill Gothard isn't a scientist OR a Christian, he's a cunt!
nafets1218 2 years ago
Bill doesn't believe this. If he did he wouldn't of had a satantic ritual abuse counsler and a shrink in Indianapolis. His saying doesnt account for demon possesion and severe brain damage and other patholgical disorders. One study doesn't make it definitive. Bill is obviously not a scientist.
coveredinsevindust23 2 years ago
"Most" was the key word
coveredinsevindust23 2 years ago
If Norwegians had to deal with "Christians" like this it's a good thing they burned their churches!
nafets1218 2 years ago
Kyouryuu5000,
AMEN!
PLEASE CONTINUE TO SPEAK THE TRUTH!!!
HelpingYouDiscern 2 years ago
@HelpingYouDiscern
Thanks.
Kyouryuu5000 9 months ago
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8-9 in the King James Bible).
Kyouryuu5000 2 years ago
I would say he is confirming what many who counsel others have found to be absolutely true. The motives of man come from the heart. The brain becomes incoherent when it justifies what our heart knows to be wrong. Through counseling hundreds of "patients" I have found this to be true. When they understand with their heart their behavior and are held accountable for it, there is a tremendous sobering of thought. They start thinking more coherently - some quicker than others.
ShilohVoice 2 years ago
I would be a little more compassionate than that - sometimes people have been treated in such a way they can become confused - they just need help in sorting out the truth - I'm speaking from experience. I will say that the psychiatric establishment's pills only allowed people to point the finger of blame at my non-existent "mental illness" rather than take a look at their own behavior. I know now I have choices. It doesn't mean there isn't pain, but I know now emotional pain is not "illness".
YouKidsNever 2 years ago
Depression, low self esteem, delusional disorder and many other emotional states are illnesses caused by distorted thinking which leads to a chemical imbalance in the brain. They may lead to emotional states that you would describe as confused, but there is no doubt that they are illnesses. Fortunately they can be cured with the right therapy and in some case the use of drugs can help.
You are talking out of your backside!
believerornot 2 years ago
believerornot-If "distorted thinking...leads to a chemical imbalance in the brain" then learning to think right, not a pill, will correct that imbalance. I have been through this, and pills do not help sort things out. It takes a lot of hard mental work and you need your wits about you while doing it - drugs only cloud the thinking process.
YouKidsNever 2 years ago
YouKidsNever
I totally agree. The best and most effective method (now conclusively proven by peer review) is Behavioural cognitive therapy. Thanks to that therapy I recovered from a 20 year depression (that went from bad to worse over time), sparked by my loss of faith. I have been without depression and happy now for almost 6 years.
believerornot 2 years ago
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bloomingdedalus 1 year ago
Its only in very severe cases often involving mild to severe delusional disorder, where the patient will not admit a problem or receive treatment where drugs become necessary. Anti psychotics cause the patient to have a temporary remission
of delusion and this then makes them open to therapy. Once the therapy has began to become effective the drugs are reduced and then stopped, leaving a patient in therapy until cured, which averages at 6 months time span.
believerornot 2 years ago
That is bullshit. How many years have you studied actual, real, behavioural cognitive psychology, rather than the make believe crap you are talking about?
You are a danger to those you advise. Please desists immediately and seek treatment your self before somebody gets hurt.
believerornot 2 years ago
This guy obviously has no understanding of brain chemistry, brain structure, basic genetics,or even the way outside influences can affect and disrupt thought processes such as we see in depression or in the more extreme cases, among those brainwashed.
This man should be in prison for promoting lies that could lead to hate crime.
That is illegal isn't it?
believerornot 2 years ago
What test can be used to diagnose a "mental illness"? Since when do emotions qualify a person for being "sick"? I don't know about irresponsibility being the culprit, but speaking from experience I do know that it comes down to knowing how to properly deal with our emotions. People get depressed for a reason, generally it is something wrong with their environment or relationships. Pills will do nothing to help sort things out.
YouKidsNever 2 years ago
Normal healthy people disregard negative thinking and focus on reality, but depression is caused by circumstances that lead the victim to pay attention to negative thinking. These thought processes then begin to repeat which creates a chemical imbalance which leads to even more negative thinking. Drugs can help but the most effective cure is behavioural cognitive therapy.
Once a person learns to control what thoughts to pay attention to environment becomes irrelevant.
believerornot 2 years ago
Actually, my depression was caused by the confusion of not understanding the dynamics in my dysfunctional family relationships - once I realized a pill was not the answer, I could focus on how to deal with how I needed to change those relationships to make them better, and also that pain and grief were going to be a natural part of that process, I got better. No pill was going to do the difficult work that I needed to do to see what was going on and change how I responded to my mother.
YouKidsNever 2 years ago
The pills kept people focused on the fictional "chemical imbalance" and not on the issues.
Rereading the journals I'd kept was vital; I could see the patterns in my relationships that were repeated over and over and I knew I could not keep responding in the same way just to have peace with my mother. She needed to be responsible for her own behavior, and I needed to hold her accountable, not take responsibility for everything that went wrong between us.
YouKidsNever 2 years ago
What?! PERSONAL IRRESPONSIBILITIES?! That's Absurd!!
jusitke07 2 years ago
Thank you! Finally, someone with a brain!
WickedWitchElphaba 2 years ago
As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:9 in the King James Bible). Bill Gothard is accursed because he is preaching another gospel.
jinzouningen5000 2 years ago
Should Gothard be diagnosed with Schizophrenia for such IRRESPONSIBLE teachings? Is this guy even real? Who has seen him other than a projection on a screen? I think he is a computer graphic, asexual, mommies boy, a fresh haircut, clean fingernails, always ready for Sunday School.
And he's ever so PRECISE in his manner of speech. If you attempt to believe and live by his teachings prepare to go nuts.
42BETWO 2 years ago
I'll concede this much to Baal Gothard. You should never believe the life story of someone whose troubles are ALL somebody else's fault. I don't need Baal Gothard to teach me that! A simple look at the law of averages is all it takes!
Wwyzzard 2 years ago
Bill Gothard speaks truth.
jmkr1979 2 years ago
Bill Gothard is also a false prophet that we are warned about in Matthew 7:15.
jinzouningen5000 2 years ago
just because you are blind to truth does not mean that it isn't true. If you do not hear the voice of the shepherd, then you are not His sheep.
jmkr1979 2 years ago
But by what shepherd is Baal Gothard the hireling?
Wwyzzard 2 years ago
The sheep may be lost, but the shepherd will never stop looking until He finds His sheep. Jesus would never blame an illness on irresponsibility. The loving Father would never forsake his child.
WickedWitchElphaba 2 years ago
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He's loving but also just. If we reject his salvation we're punching our own ticket to hell. Many people justify irresponsibility by calling it illness. Jesus is not one of those people. It's wishful thinking to believe he'd help someone lie to themselves so they can "escape" their feelings of guilt.
youtu33time 2 years ago
First of all, these "mental illnesses" are psychiatric propaganda used to manipulate people (a form of eugenics). The Bible condemns this form of eugenics known as psychiatry in James 2:9 because it is a form of elitism.
jinzouningen5000 2 years ago
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Read Explaining colours to a blind man. Not only will it enlighten many as to what living with a mental illness and chronic fatigue syndrome is like, it also gives comfort to those sufferers who think there is no hope and that they are alone. It is very informative, sometimes shocking but also very funny in parts. All in all, a good read and highly recommended.
hsttraindriver 2 years ago
I am a perfectly responsible person. I am mentally ill. (WHAT NOW??) Bill Gotthard is an idiot who does not understand the true nature of mental illness. This entire idea is a bunch of bulls**t. THis makes it sound as if the illness is the persons fault. Are you trying to tell me that I caused my own suffering? That I chose it, and can just "snap out of it?" Ok, then "it's just diabetes, get over it! Turn your life around and your fine!" Yeah, right. I've tried that, numbskull. No cure yet. >:(
WickedWitchElphaba 2 years ago
You're only illness is that you will not repent from your wicked life. You've decided that there are certain sins that you must keep in your life. Unless you renounce them and accept Christ, you will never find a "cure" for your "mental illness." Harsh words, but full of truth...and you know that they are true...
slappy1234567 2 years ago
Um, reality check hun, but you don't know a thing about me! I happen to be a Roman Catholic who was recently absolved of all sins. And yet, my mental illness? IT STILL EXISTS. I don't know who's brain-washing you, but even Jesus accepts mental illness as real, the Catholic Church accepts mental illness as real. I don't know what lies you've been fed, but I suggest you open your eyes to the reality. I don't know what your problem is, but mental illness is REAL. And it has nothing to do with sins.
WickedWitchElphaba 2 years ago
No institution can "absolve" anyone of their sins, that authority is in God's hands.
Secondly, show me, from the Scriptures, where "Jesus accepts mental illness as real." You can't and you won't because that is not in the Bible.
Which leads to another question: Why do you assert that Jesus teaches things that he does not?
slappy1234567 2 years ago
The Church absolved me of my sins, don't be stupid. And I hope you realize that the bible was written years and years ago by men who didn't properly understand the world around them. Just because God inspired it doesn't mean that the book is infallible. The men Jesus drove demons out of? Those were schizophrenics, and the demons were their mental illness. I have no direct proof, but let's just say it's a spiritual inclination. The bible isn't meant to be taken literally, ask any learned priest.
WickedWitchElphaba 2 years ago
Crafty side stepping. Now, back to your assertion that "Jesus accepts mental illness as real." Can you please direct me to the passage in the Scriptures where I can find that? Waiting...
slappy1234567 2 years ago
Remember the men with demons? Jesus healed them, he forgave them. However, as I stated earlier, there is no direct passage in the bible, however if the Catholic Church, Chirst's own foundation accepts mental illness as a real and serious issue, then I believe it is safe to say that Jesus would as well.
WickedWitchElphaba 2 years ago
So, Jesus follows the opinions of leaders in the Roman Catholic Church? If not, you're assertion is still dangling in the wind, unsupported and ill-spoken...
You said:
"Jesus accepts mental illness as real."
You have yet to show me where he ever said or taught this foolishness.
Remember, the Roman Catholic Church at one time supported the burning of heretics. Did Christ support setting fire to non-Christians or burning alive those who do not accept "the authority of popes and councils?"
slappy1234567 2 years ago
As stated, I have no direct proof. However, the definition of faith is believing without proof. I'm afraid you have no proof Jesus ever existed, yet we both believe he did. Where is your proof that Jesus doesn't accept mental illness, that he blames it all on sin. I'm afraid the bible is nothing more than what humanity has made it to be, our individual interpretation of it. You have no proof of your assertions, and neither do I, however proof is irrelevant, as this is a matter of faith, not fact
WickedWitchElphaba 2 years ago
No one asked you for "proof." I asked for you to show me where Jesus EVER said or taught that mental illness is real. The fact is, he didn't.
No offense, but I will stick to the teachings plainly laid out in the Scriptures rather than your whimsical, foundationless opinions.
slappy1234567 2 years ago
Secondly, you say that the Roman Catholic Church has the authority to absolve you of sins. Who gave the Roman Catholic Church that authority?
slappy1234567 2 years ago
Um, Jesus gave the Church that authority, when he declared Peter the Rock on which he would build his Church. And no offense, but where in the bible does it ever say that Jesus condemns the mentally ill? Because it also doesn't say that. Somehow, I have trouble believing that Jesus would condemn the ill, when he never did any such thing in your precious scriptures. Don't use God as an excuse for your bigotry.
WickedWitchElphaba 2 years ago
How are you aware that Jesus gave the Roman Catholic Church the authority to absolve sins?
slappy1234567 2 years ago
Um, are you blind? I clearly stated the Jesus gave Peter that authority before he ascended into heaven. Peter then founded the Catholic Church.
WickedWitchElphaba 2 years ago
How were you made aware of this information? H-O-W?
slappy1234567 2 years ago
Um, the Bible. Ever read the Acts of the Apostles?
WickedWitchElphaba 2 years ago
How can a book that is "not infallible" and "should not be taken literally" impart authority to absolve sins? That doesn't make any sense.
So your hope for going to heaven depends on authority granted to the Roman Catholic Church by a book you say is "not infallible" and "should not be taken literally?"
Yikes.
slappy1234567 2 years ago
My hope for going to heaven depends on the way I live my life, not on the authority of a church, that, yes, is probably full of mistakes. However, when a person goes to confession in a Church, the priest doesn't forgive them, God does. The priest is just speaking through Jesus. Oh, and lets not forget that I do confess my sins, and I do get forgiven. And as stated earlier, my mental illness remains as real as ever. So I suggest you consider shutting you mouth before it gets in the wrong place.
WickedWitchElphaba 2 years ago
Only Christ can forgive sins. And He is revealed to us through the Scriptures.
You may be able to fool men with "mental illness," but you will NOT fool God. He WILL hold you accountable for your behavior.
"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap."
Galatians 6:7
slappy1234567 2 years ago
Did you not see what I wrote? The priest doesn't forgive the sins, God does. The priest acts as a mediator. And how do you know what God thinks and feels about this issue? If you are ignorent enough to think mental illnesses are results of sin, then are you sorely misguided. It is a chemical imbalance, uncontrollable, like cancer or diabetes. You would never say they were caused by sin, so why should a mental disease be any different? Don't use God to justify your ignorence and bigotry.
WickedWitchElphaba 2 years ago
Bible says: There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.
Hiding from responsibility is choosing to live in a kind of darkness-this will exacerbate certain kinds of mental illness. Others indeed may be physiological as you're saying. Some mental illness is caused by sin. Not all. Some.
Jesus didn't just preach forgiveness though, but also repentance/change. Faith in Him alone results in a changed heart..we still can fall into sin, but that shouldn't be our aspiration. :)
youtu33time 2 years ago
Well at least you're nicer about it. However, I stand by what I said, that mental illnesses themselves are not sinful, and living with one is not a shameful or sinful act. Unless Jesus descends from Heaven and tells me I am wrong, I will stand by what I have said.
WickedWitchElphaba 2 years ago
There's no disagreement here. I'm not attacking you or saying your sinful because your mentally ill. We're all sinful.
There's a science book called, "The Brain that changes itself" you might find interesting. I sure did. If I compromise with evil once, I can start to justify myself in my mind and I have less inhibitions stopping me from doing something evil again because my actions and thoughts have changed my brain.
I can't judge your case because I don't know you.
youtu33time 2 years ago
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MustangPalomino1 2 years ago
Oh, for God's sakes, can't you fundamentalist religious nuts just for once in your lives accept some else's beliefs for what they are? I never asked you a goddamn thing, so quit spouting your useless drivel to me. I'm done with putting up with your arrogance and your judgemental cruelty, so just shut the fuck up and get out of my life! And don't dismiss the facts, mental illnesses are real, and sufferers ought to be shown compassion; something you all seem to be incapable of. Have a nice life.
WickedWitchElphaba 2 years ago
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MustangPalomino1 2 years ago
WickedWitchElphaba I could not agree more. They claim to follow a god who is all about compassion and tells them to be compassionate yet they take the completely opposite stance when it comes to people around them.
They sicken me!
I think the contradictions in their religion make them suffer from mental illness.
believerornot 2 years ago
Hahaha, that would explain a lot. :)
WickedWitchElphaba 2 years ago
Bill Gothard: Selling his product to people who want someone else to think for them. He's only too happy to oblige them.
DonnaSilverstein 3 years ago 2
people who think like you Donna, are in for a big shock.
jmkr1979 2 years ago
What kind of shock?
DonnaSilverstein 2 years ago
The term "fundie Talmudist" has been used to describe Gothard. It fits him to a T.
BenAliGtor 3 years ago
you are deceived
jmkr1979 2 years ago
The "unnamed Jewish Psychiatrist" is Thomas Szasz, Professor Emeritus of Psychiatry at the State University of New York Health Science Center in Syracuse, New York. He is the one that equated mental illness to varying levels of irresponsibility.
rivernurse1965 3 years ago
Regarding my comments on Baal Gothard:
I am thinking in particular of somebody who ran away from home at the age of 13 to escape her lecherous stepfather. Needless to say she was in dire straits on the streets when she encountered a street ministry and made her profession of faith. She was taken in by a Christian household and did well at first.
Wwyzzard 3 years ago
"Regarding my comments on Baal Gothard:.."
"Baal Gothard." I like that! Very apropo !!
BenAliGtor 2 years ago
At Sunday School, she won a scholarship to attend Baal Gothard's institute, where she went to learn how to make her lifr pleasing to the Lord. She decided to follow his advice and return home, to submit to her stepfather as unto the Lord.
Wwyzzard 3 years ago
A few years later, she got married. Her husband quickly became highly abusive. One afternoon she was fixing dinner, cutting up meat for the stew when her husband came home early -- again. She went to greet him and it was plain that he was drunk -- again. He began finding fault with her housekeeping and beat her up -- again.
Wwyzzard 3 years ago
Then he picked her up, slung her over his shoulder, and carried her to the bedroom where he tore off her clothes and raped her -- again. Then he passed out in a drunken stupor with his face in an idiot grin facing the ceiling -- again. She staggered out of the bedroom and passed near the door to the kitchen where her eye lit on the butcher knife she had been using upon his arrival. She picked it up, went back to the bedroom, and opened his throat from ear to ear.
Wwyzzard 3 years ago
The jury let her off on a "Twinkie defense" (temporary insanity, diminished capacity). The judge ordered her to be committed to a mental institution.
When I met her online, she had just been released from the institution. She wanted me to help her to buy a gun so that she could hunt down Baal Gothard and kill him.
Wwyzzard 3 years ago
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jinzouningen5000 3 years ago
The word of God says that we are to correct one another in love and gentleness, not saying people we disagree with will go to hell or ought to be shot. Look at the log in your own eye before speaking about the speck in your brother's eye. People see this judgmental attitude a small group of you are displaying here and they run screaming as fast as they can from Jesus. Who would want to join some of you lot? Jesus said the world will know us and Him by our love for one another. Blessings!
HealedandOpenHearts 3 years ago
First thing first.
I am a Christian, not a Gandhian. If you do not know the difference between the Man from Galilee and that little pedophile from India, then what are you?
At the very least, Jesus never said that you reject Him if you reject Gandhi. And He never said that He would deny the one who denies Gandhi. So if the only authority you have for your nebulous teachings is that of a little pedophile, you need not be taken seriously.
Wwyzzard 3 years ago
I am no follower of men, but I value their contributions in their limited understanding of things. I know Bill has some extreme ideas that I don't completely agree with but he is fellow brother in Christ that I discern has a true heart for God. I enjoyed his chalk talks. I don't have a problem with people discussing doctrine. Nobody would if done in love and gentleness, but what I see going on many times by Christians who remain anonymous is a lot of venom & hatred like these last few comments
HealedandOpenHearts 3 years ago
Healed and OpenHearts
How can you have a true heart for God and then hurtfully debase the suffering of others? I'm a Christian who's had a depressive illness for 28 years and I've had alleged Christians trying to correct me in 'love and gentleness' (ie refusing to speak to, or acknowledge me) If that's what Gothard meant by irresponsibility then he can start with most churches on the subject of MI. If someone you love was ill and the doctor called them irresponsible, what then? Not impressed?
MatlockJack 2 years ago
bill gothard is a satanic free mason. It's amazing how the stupid fake cristians follow him to hell gladly. Just like that son of the devil billy graham. Suckers..! Wolves in sheeps clothing every one last of them.
flaviusvlad 3 years ago
I am shocked and surprised by the conduct of people who call themselves Christians when they can remain anonymous like this. Be sure, God sees who you are. I can't go to your pastor and hold you guys accountable for your actions but I do invite you to go to my blog site at the spotless bride period word press period com to learn how to prepare yourselves to be spotless brides before Jesus' return. This kind of talk is not from the Spirit of God but is divisive and unloving, for God is Love.
HealedandOpenHearts 3 years ago
this guy is a jerk and robb thompson s con man friend....
MYJESUSROCKS 3 years ago
Ah, yes. Baal Gothard! Hasn't anybody shot him YET?
Wwyzzard 3 years ago
I should have given it a 5, for how funny it is that people buy his BULLSHIT!
nafets1218 3 years ago
Bill Gothard is a Hellspawn wretch! And when the time comes he shall return to were he came from!
nafets1218 3 years ago 2
This has been flagged as spam show
unloved children seek warmth and love in their own genitals. They get addicted to masturbation and depressed.
Later in life they get schizophrenia and
often commit suicides.
The cure for depression is 6-8 weeks
without sex.
The cure for schizophrenia is 3-18 months without sex.
Epidemy of depressions is just as old as a notion that masturbation is healthy.
medical business spreads lies and makes thousands of billions on suffering people.
best of all!
fun69stein 3 years ago
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i don't see the point of talking so bad about someone that is always giving of his time to help others...
music100percent 3 years ago
Bill Gothard is a legalistc control freak!!! He follows none of his own teachings and he is worshiped by his followers like God. Yes God. They think he is the Lord of all creation's "mouthpiece". I've homeschooled all my life and have stayed as far away from Gothard and his teachings as possible. I know many families that have escaped the bondage of IBLP, but I also know many who are still very blinded. God doesn't base His love for us on our princples. He loves us because we're His children.
ffbrockr18 3 years ago 14
@ffbrockr18 Unfortunately - my whole county is run by this guy's teachings. I was homeschooled under Gothard - and they never stop trying to hurt you - ever.
bloomingdedalus 1 year ago
@ffbrockr18 Also - I was homeschooled - and not a day goes by that I don't absolutely hate my parents for doing it to me - it's child abuse - you shouldn't do it.
bloomingdedalus 1 year ago
@ffbrockr18 You guys only homeschool your kids so you can beat them into submission like all homeschooling families. It's a terrible thing to do to a child - I was homeschooled and I absolutely despise the people who did it to me.
bloomingdedalus 1 year ago
@bloomingdedalus Ummm What are you talking about?? I have no kids. I just said i was homeschooled. I was homeschooled because all of the schools where I live absolutely suck. My parents are totally normal. Not abusive at all. Don't take your bad experience and make that the norm for all homeschooling.
ffbrockr18 1 year ago
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I have to be honest... I attended one of his seminars with an open heart and an open mind. In the middle, the Holy Spirit stood me up and walked me out of there. That is the truth. So, friends, please look up his teachings and see if they really "gel" with what the bible says. Ask God to give you wisdom. Then you will know the truth.
normharris 3 years ago
I totally agree with you!! None of his teachings are are Biblical. He takes scripture and twists it around. It's sad that so many people are blinded by one MAN!!!!!!!
ffbrockr18 3 years ago 10
I wish Mr. Gothard's complete response could be heard. He goes on to say warehousing people with drugs and then making them totally dependant on professional care did not work. Encouraging people to reduce their dependance on medication and become self reliant works in many cases. He makes it abundantly clear NOT all people with acute mental illness can recover in this manner. However, many can recover and do well.
stannoll 3 years ago
jmkr1970, are you like one of those Duggar children that somehow snuck on to the unholy youtube?
kaylakaaos 3 years ago
So now, looking back on how my life has gone, I would just like to say:
FUCK YOU Bill Gothard. You are an accomplice to stealing a happy childhood. I never knew what it was like to have so much rage, until I was forced to endure your teachings in my everyday family life.
May God have mercy on your soul, for what you did to me.
Twigonometry 3 years ago 9
Twig, as I may have stated before, I was 17 when I went through it. I eventually researched his "biblical principles". The more you look at it, the more you realize that Gothard's tripe has nothing to do with Jesus & the Bible, and everything to do with the protection of vested economic interests. That's why people like him are so against things such as organized labor unions: they threaten the vested interests of his biggest donors.
Thanks for speaking out. More people need to do so.
BenAliGtor 3 years ago 2
I was moved by your story. I am truly sorry & hope you are doing better in your health & haven't abandoned God because of this. This sort of pain is all too common when a relationship with Jesus becomes a religious exercise. I don't think that was Gothard's intent, but many people even take the perfect doctrine in the Bible and make it the letter of the law which kills without the Spirit of God. You can find peace in this. I counsel people affected by the disease of religion back to Christ.
HealedandOpenHearts 3 years ago
I was homeschooled 1st-12th grade by my loving right-wing parents. I was pretty much forced to attend his seminars. We used his materials in our Bible studies, and as part of our school studies.
I studied that shit long and hard. I never liked it, but I wanted my parents especially to view me as a good Christian.
So it was extremely bewildering to me to experience mental degradation, until I was finally diagnosed with bipolar disorder. I was a fucking kid, I didn't know what was going on.
Twigonometry 3 years ago 2
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how typical for non believers to criticize the truth....
luckduck32167 3 years ago
why that pharisaical little nut.
beckhamfreak 3 years ago
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BenAliGtor, the bible confirms that Gods sheep hear His voice, you do not. For you to bad mouth a true believer is self indictment.
jmkr1979 3 years ago
If you're smart enough to notice, he doesn't name this "Jewish psychiatrist". Any bets that no such person exists?
BenAliGtor 3 years ago 7
Does this guy ever jerk off? Does anyone know?
19PHS74 3 years ago
excuse me I meant to say "your" salvation
jmkr1979 3 years ago
jmkr1979, if you seriously believe that if someone thinks Gothard is a false teacher it qualifies them as having doubtful salvation, then you are an ignorant fool. When did Gothard become a Christ figure? Grow up. That 'I doubt your salvation' line is so old and only scared, insecure and brainwashed christians use that manipulative rhetoric. Christians like you give us all a bad name. Gothard sucks. Jesus rules. Matthew Holmes
twotonepictures 3 years ago 11
This comment has received too many negative votes show
If you speak evil against Bill Gothard, you testify of yourself that you cannot recognize truth. The most likely reason for this is having a desire to harbour sin in your life.
Psalm 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
jmkr1979 3 years ago
Amen, I gave up CCM back in the late 80s and have never regretted it. It is like a black hole that is sucking the churches youth into it. I have no regrets. A life of holiness is a wonderful life. Being married to #1 for 13yrs and having 4 beutiful children raised without a TV and Rot-n-roll music isn't so bad. My brother didn't heed and has 3 wives and children scattered around the country with a lot of child support to pay. The narrow way is really not that bad. His yoke is easy! Glory to God!
troy1387 3 years ago
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Bill Gothard is not a false teacher, if you believe he is, you have reason to seriously doubt you salvation. John 10:27
jmkr1979 3 years ago
I use to think that this nut job could walk on water (when I was young . . . and very stupid). I can not image the damage that he has done to children and families with his stupid thoughts.
jjones1253 3 years ago 7
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Bill Gothard saved my life and led me to the salvation of my soul.
jmkr1979 3 years ago
Since Bill Gothard's teachings are going global, Bill Gothard is constructing a New World Order.
jinzouningen5000 3 years ago 4
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The world would be blessed by this holy man of God.
jmkr1979 3 years ago
jinzouningen5000 3 years ago 4
You apparently could not recognize an antichrist if he walked up to you and shook your hand.
jmkr1979 3 years ago
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um why don't you post the whole seminar so you can better understand what he is talking about. because you have taken it out of context as with alot of his stuff. and I think ppl can't take this because they know its the truth.
JG12739 3 years ago
"I think ppl can't take this because they know its the truth. "
I sat through the entire thing 3 times, as I indicated.This is only the tip of his absurd iceberg. Two of my favorites:
1. The verse about "heaping coals up0n the head" of those who persecute you actually refers to "an ancient custom". Which NO historian can verify.
2. The idea that medical doctors should forgo med school and "apprentice". How jolly! Let's return to the 'good old days' when physicians killed more than diseases.
BenAliGtor 3 years ago 2
Gothard has mental illness. Why should we take marriage, sex and children-raising advice from a man who claims to be celebate, has never married and has never had kids. It's like a soldier who's never seen action telling Vietnam vet's how to fight jungle warfare, just because he's read a book on. Gothard is a total jerk-off.
twotonepictures 3 years ago 8