What we would like to know is how much Tumut 3 is pumping back... how often and what percentage of green power is directly power assisted... also how does the Grid offsets affect derivative trading...
I think that is the biggest concern at the moment... we can't be dropping water for the price of power... and Snowy Hydro is underwriting coal power... and is forced to release to cover these hedge bets... not wise practice in the driest continent...
They can only pump out of Jounama Pondage tho remember, fairly limited capacity there, and its almost always draining into Blowering as well. While (for those who go there) its obvious the water level does change up there from day to day, you never see it all that empty either. Remember too that 300cm/c is only rated capacity. Youd suck jounama 60% dry over night if they pumped at that rate...lots of dead fish and cranky fishermen at that rate
pump back is from off peek power, you can't turn off a coal fired power station at night so the pump back at tunit three is other wise waisted electricity..... AC power can't be stored in batteries....
I think you missed the point.. it's referring to the misconception of green power.. do you know that Snowy Hydro uses coal fired power at night to push the water up.. and sells it as green power on the way down...
I'm sure the Mosman greens would be very happy to know the tariff they are paying for green power comes from Coal...
There is only 1station in the SH that pumps water back up hill. This occurs only during off peak hours & is helping other power providers more than anything, as shutdown/startup of coal stations is time consuming and incredibly costly...it keeps generators online that otherwise are just running a waste overnight waiting for morning peak hours. Its partly also why "off peak" hot water systems exist, & lights are left on in highrises in sydney. This process actually PREVENTS needless pollution
In this particular case its not storage that's happening. It's just utilisation of otherwise unused / waste power.
Due to mechanical and other losses in the system (which are unavoidable) it requires more energy to pump the same amount of water up-hill than you can generate from it falling down again....so its actually a loss, not a storage :)
In Tumut 3 case there is a loss of about 25%... but remember off peak is longer than Peak Periods and Tumut 3 can do 300 cubic mtere per sec back up.. that's allot of water... also...
Don't forget the water from Jindabyne is also pumped.. but it the case of that system there is actually a net gain.. but it's small compared to Tumut...
It's all about economics in Snowy Hydro's case... (below is an example scenario...
The main issue is you can't sell pumped storage as GREEN POWER...
Of cos pumping offpeak is a money spinner, they wouldnt be doing it otherwise. That dam however has a capacity of 160.5 thousand ML, so the pumped amounts barely rate. I see your point tho, if it was large percentages pumped I'd agree with you. But if we go down that track then no source is truly green, even wind farms require land clearing and consume fossil fuels in their manufacture, setup, maintenance and running. They even consume electricity from outside sources (coal) on startup
Assume a pumped-storage reservoir can pump to its upper reservoir water equivalent to 1,200 MW·h during the night, for $15 per MW·h, at a total cost of $18,000. The next day, all of the stored energy can be sold at the peak hours for $40 per MW·h, but from the 1,200 MW·h pumped 50 were lost due to evaporation and seeping in the reservoir. 1,150 MW·h are sold for $46,000, for a final profit of $28,000.
what a load of crap. u'd dont know wat u's are talkin bout. as if 100 odd leaves in a dam is gonna pollute the world. its way cleaner to use hydro generated electricity then coal fired so unless u dont use electricty at all shut ya face. now im angry im goin to get something to eat
What we would like to know is how much Tumut 3 is pumping back... how often and what percentage of green power is directly power assisted... also how does the Grid offsets affect derivative trading...
I think that is the biggest concern at the moment... we can't be dropping water for the price of power... and Snowy Hydro is underwriting coal power... and is forced to release to cover these hedge bets... not wise practice in the driest continent...
Cheers
LesHerstik 2 years ago
They can only pump out of Jounama Pondage tho remember, fairly limited capacity there, and its almost always draining into Blowering as well. While (for those who go there) its obvious the water level does change up there from day to day, you never see it all that empty either. Remember too that 300cm/c is only rated capacity. Youd suck jounama 60% dry over night if they pumped at that rate...lots of dead fish and cranky fishermen at that rate
jusoate 2 years ago
pump back is from off peek power, you can't turn off a coal fired power station at night so the pump back at tunit three is other wise waisted electricity..... AC power can't be stored in batteries....
andrew1038 2 years ago
This is very true.
Hydroelectricity is not even a proper renewable energy source, we should be looking at other resources for energy (solar).
i0hpk 2 years ago
I think you missed the point.. it's referring to the misconception of green power.. do you know that Snowy Hydro uses coal fired power at night to push the water up.. and sells it as green power on the way down...
I'm sure the Mosman greens would be very happy to know the tariff they are paying for green power comes from Coal...
LesHerstik 2 years ago
There is only 1station in the SH that pumps water back up hill. This occurs only during off peak hours & is helping other power providers more than anything, as shutdown/startup of coal stations is time consuming and incredibly costly...it keeps generators online that otherwise are just running a waste overnight waiting for morning peak hours. Its partly also why "off peak" hot water systems exist, & lights are left on in highrises in sydney. This process actually PREVENTS needless pollution
jusoate 2 years ago
You are correct.. it is generally referred to as grid storage and I agree it is a valuable and cost efficient way to store energy...
But you can't sell it as green power if it's grid storage.. which they are doing of course...
Cheers
Thanks for the comment
LesHerstik 2 years ago
In this particular case its not storage that's happening. It's just utilisation of otherwise unused / waste power.
Due to mechanical and other losses in the system (which are unavoidable) it requires more energy to pump the same amount of water up-hill than you can generate from it falling down again....so its actually a loss, not a storage :)
jusoate 2 years ago
In Tumut 3 case there is a loss of about 25%... but remember off peak is longer than Peak Periods and Tumut 3 can do 300 cubic mtere per sec back up.. that's allot of water... also...
Don't forget the water from Jindabyne is also pumped.. but it the case of that system there is actually a net gain.. but it's small compared to Tumut...
It's all about economics in Snowy Hydro's case... (below is an example scenario...
The main issue is you can't sell pumped storage as GREEN POWER...
Cheers
LesHerstik 2 years ago
Of cos pumping offpeak is a money spinner, they wouldnt be doing it otherwise. That dam however has a capacity of 160.5 thousand ML, so the pumped amounts barely rate. I see your point tho, if it was large percentages pumped I'd agree with you. But if we go down that track then no source is truly green, even wind farms require land clearing and consume fossil fuels in their manufacture, setup, maintenance and running. They even consume electricity from outside sources (coal) on startup
jusoate 2 years ago
Assume a pumped-storage reservoir can pump to its upper reservoir water equivalent to 1,200 MW·h during the night, for $15 per MW·h, at a total cost of $18,000. The next day, all of the stored energy can be sold at the peak hours for $40 per MW·h, but from the 1,200 MW·h pumped 50 were lost due to evaporation and seeping in the reservoir. 1,150 MW·h are sold for $46,000, for a final profit of $28,000.
LesHerstik 2 years ago
do you have your own solar or wind power....I do...I aint paying more for green power.....get your own solar panels or shut up.......
andrew1038 2 years ago
@andrew1038 ... yes I do have solar panels.. and I do pay for green power... there's no need to be rude...
Pump back should be used more... but you cannot sell it as green... that is the point... what percentage of green power is being coal assisted...
I guess the question to you is ... do you think trading water for the price of power is appropriate practice...
LesHerstik 2 years ago
what a load of crap. u'd dont know wat u's are talkin bout. as if 100 odd leaves in a dam is gonna pollute the world. its way cleaner to use hydro generated electricity then coal fired so unless u dont use electricty at all shut ya face. now im angry im goin to get something to eat
champion4040 2 years ago