Hi, Matt. I like the concept of the holon very, very much, but I'm confused by the idea of a hierarchy of holons, or a "holarchy."
Aren't hierarchies and the very concept of a "holon" (at least somewhat) antithetical? Doesn't a real holographic approach (to... well, anything) imply the necessity of transcending hierarchies into another form or arrangement altogether? What have I misunderstood or missed here?
yes they're structure already but intend in themselves to be very close to form structures or almost per definition the most formalist structures we can conceive of.
With them we try to make the step into the realm of structures as smooth as possible.
Holons deal with holarchies and hierarchies such as atoms to molecules to cells, ect, perhaps ad infinitum. You didn't miss anything per se. However, this philosophy is not in opposition to dynamic holographic understandings of all there is. This does fit. Its just that the perceiver... who attempts to do something horizontal in an 'vertical' environment must acknowledge verticality, but dynamically and in full appreciation of the complexity involved and evolved. Is that in any way clear enough?
As someone else said in the comments, namely hyperseauton - you can transcend hierarchies by flowing and nt being stuck, much like the buddha who wasn't stuck but was free to tooo.
This nondualistic reality is nevertheless hierarchical; consciousness is hierarchical and there's no getting around it - and no reason to. The fact that some people have negative associations to the word doesn't invalidate the reality. You can ascend them, but not transcend them...well, maybe after the highest level but I still back away from moving through that one, at least so far...
everything is also a quark though? what you said was created by quarks and shows up as quarks. what is the "highest" level?, the topographical alphabetic code sequence, or the intangable institutions that surround your words from a socio-humanistic point of view? or is it the quarks? is there anything "below" the universe or "above" it? are we below the universe?, is the universe in opposition to itself? are there different "roles" or is your child subordinate to you?
does anyone even own anything? do I control the totality of quarks in my body, or what if they all of a sudden fly off in every direction? don't they already do that, and its more an exchange of quarks? or was that neutrinos?
Did Koestler dream up this metaphor between his study of telepathy and levitation. That guy is looney tunes crazy. He let his wife commit suicide with him when she was only 55 and healthy. Why do you buy into this feel good crap? Check the psychology and motivations behind it.
I just watched 2 mins 43 seconds and still don't know wtf a holon is supposed to be.
Koestler had his problems (the ugliest of which you didn't even mention). And maybe he did spend a lot of time of research that was not mainstream science but a good idea is a good idea. A spiritual worldview is not required to understand holons.
I don't know the meaning in Filosofy but "Holon" is an Ancient Greek word used as a noun and verb. As a noun means "the part of a whole in the soul of someone" as a verb means "someone who is capable to transcend this hole". :)
I almost forgot. The letter H in the word Holon is because the word had rough spirit in the vowel. The Greeks used to beleive the words had body and spirit, like they were alive. Most of the words that had rough spirit are written today in english with H. 'O lon' was pronounced Hô lon, and then became Holon. :)
LOL He's my Uncle.
Cellvar 1 year ago
is matt still on holiday kissing buddha ass:) sorry m8(tucking into a lobster supper?)
danbit5 2 years ago
I'm a big fan of KW so I'm no stranger to Holarchy, good pick for your new page name.
Glass2007 2 years ago 3
Hi, Matt. I like the concept of the holon very, very much, but I'm confused by the idea of a hierarchy of holons, or a "holarchy."
Aren't hierarchies and the very concept of a "holon" (at least somewhat) antithetical? Doesn't a real holographic approach (to... well, anything) imply the necessity of transcending hierarchies into another form or arrangement altogether? What have I misunderstood or missed here?
awakenedinseattle 2 years ago 3
yes they're structure already but intend in themselves to be very close to form structures or almost per definition the most formalist structures we can conceive of.
With them we try to make the step into the realm of structures as smooth as possible.
you can transcend hioerarchies in flowing.
hyperseauton 2 years ago
I referred to "form is emptiness; emptiness is form" in my previous comment.
Flex-flow of gestalt is what it is. See the part in the whole and the whole in the part;
the whole and part in one another
the part and whole
hyperseauton 2 years ago
Holons deal with holarchies and hierarchies such as atoms to molecules to cells, ect, perhaps ad infinitum. You didn't miss anything per se. However, this philosophy is not in opposition to dynamic holographic understandings of all there is. This does fit. Its just that the perceiver... who attempts to do something horizontal in an 'vertical' environment must acknowledge verticality, but dynamically and in full appreciation of the complexity involved and evolved. Is that in any way clear enough?
1PostPoMoMaN1 2 years ago
As someone else said in the comments, namely hyperseauton - you can transcend hierarchies by flowing and nt being stuck, much like the buddha who wasn't stuck but was free to tooo.
1PostPoMoMaN1 2 years ago
This nondualistic reality is nevertheless hierarchical; consciousness is hierarchical and there's no getting around it - and no reason to. The fact that some people have negative associations to the word doesn't invalidate the reality. You can ascend them, but not transcend them...well, maybe after the highest level but I still back away from moving through that one, at least so far...
zendok 2 years ago
I agree, zendok.
1PostPoMoMaN1 2 years ago
everything is also a quark though? what you said was created by quarks and shows up as quarks. what is the "highest" level?, the topographical alphabetic code sequence, or the intangable institutions that surround your words from a socio-humanistic point of view? or is it the quarks? is there anything "below" the universe or "above" it? are we below the universe?, is the universe in opposition to itself? are there different "roles" or is your child subordinate to you?
gen6k 2 years ago
does anyone even own anything? do I control the totality of quarks in my body, or what if they all of a sudden fly off in every direction? don't they already do that, and its more an exchange of quarks? or was that neutrinos?
gen6k 2 years ago
Within this highly evolved new nomenclature would the term sub-asshole be permitted?
riv3rrun 2 years ago
Did Koestler dream up this metaphor between his study of telepathy and levitation. That guy is looney tunes crazy. He let his wife commit suicide with him when she was only 55 and healthy. Why do you buy into this feel good crap? Check the psychology and motivations behind it.
I just watched 2 mins 43 seconds and still don't know wtf a holon is supposed to be.
Dear spiritualists, you make no fucking sense.
AntiSisyphus 2 years ago
Koestler had his problems (the ugliest of which you didn't even mention). And maybe he did spend a lot of time of research that was not mainstream science but a good idea is a good idea. A spiritual worldview is not required to understand holons.
Glass2007 2 years ago
What are holons?
AntiSisyphus 2 years ago
I don't know the meaning in Filosofy but "Holon" is an Ancient Greek word used as a noun and verb. As a noun means "the part of a whole in the soul of someone" as a verb means "someone who is capable to transcend this hole". :)
kakosuranosx 2 years ago
I almost forgot. The letter H in the word Holon is because the word had rough spirit in the vowel. The Greeks used to beleive the words had body and spirit, like they were alive. Most of the words that had rough spirit are written today in english with H. 'O lon' was pronounced Hô lon, and then became Holon. :)
kakosuranosx 2 years ago
i didnt understand one word ; i hope
somone did.
mind you; that goes for most books that Thouarthat reads--does anyone understand this jibber jabber?
LimpLoser 2 years ago
I'm a holon.
MaBu888 2 years ago
You ARE a holon! Psh. *Collapses the holonic universe in a nifty map and goes about his merry way*
thepathlesspath 2 years ago
Holon saY: I see wat u did der. :)
1PostPoMoMaN1 2 years ago