To whom it may concern WE ARE ORTHODOX WE ARE NOT SCHISMATICS. JESUS CHRIST IS THE HEAD OF OUR CHURCH. WE have weatherd the ottoman empire the threats and raids from the west but we are still here we are strong we want a United Church, We stand for Peace,Byzantium is alive and well through out the world for those who think they have Vanished us.
You Orthodox Christians waste your spiritual and biological lifetime by declaring others as Schismatics and Heretics. The body of Christ is divided and hurt. It got hurt and divided by Christians. Do not criticize others but look at yourselves. God bless you.
Well thank you, Cherazz, I have not heard an orthodox call anyone a schismatic, but I have heard them be angry that the 4th crusade was carried out by their western sisiters, Murderd a whole city looted a Cathedral for a 1000 years of Gold and Icons, the it fell to the Ottomans after help was requested by the Patriarch and no answer from the west, Christ and the Theotokos have shed tears since that day.
Well Joe, although I could never participate in your Church and I can't refer to it as Orthodox, I won't and can't judge your faith and that of your fellow congregants. Perhaps one day, something can be worked out and your parish (beautiful and ancient liturgy) can be (re)welcomed into the fold.
I wouldn't want to be part of "the fold", but part of the Orthodox Church, which is less and less to be found in the official Church in these sad days.
I think this church is schismatic and it should not be called Orthodox because it is not under any Orthodox Bishop and therefore not in communion with the Orthodox church.Such heresy is a big sin.
Is this Church in commmunion with the Orthodox Church. that is, is their bishop in communion with the MP. the OCA metropolitan, the EP... etc? I am not asking if this parish accepts us who are canonically Orthodox but if we are in official communion with them.
Thanks and sorry if this question was already posted and answered here.
This Church is not under any Bishop. We have a mission of one family and a couple of other people which sometimes (but not recently) meets there which is under the Milan Synod, but the Milan Synod is not in communion with any official church. Hope that helps.
No, in other words we are intelligent. Please tell me who were broke away from, without saying "the Orthodox Church", since the Orthodox Church is composed of many local Churches. Which one did we "break off" from?
You can't say schismatic if they never broke off. However, their own jursdictional site says, "Our bishops have multiple lines of Apostolic Succession including schismatic Roman Catholic, Old Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Anglican as well as others."
This is absolutely false. Please look at Orthodox Wiki under "Holy Synod of Milan". The Milan Synod is an Old Calendarist Church. We would never write such stupidity and I would love you to tell me where that website of "ours" is
Checkout on youtube the CZECH documentary STOLEN KOSOVO for the truth concerning this issue!! Christian Kosovo is dying and the Christian Serbs are in the last stages of being ethnically cleansed, please watch is documentary to spread awareness!!
Colonial Spanish is not only baroque. specifically I was referring to the architecture. What ever happened to "I don't care, I'm not part of you people and I am not even Hispanic anyway"? Why don't you answer questions about how your Patriarchate sponsors the inclusion of Roman Catholic and Anglican liturgies in your churches in America?
They will listen to *you*. As an Antiochian, they are YOUR Patriarch and Bishops.
To quote:"Sólo soy hispano por accidente, soy de ascendencia croata, y seguramente tengo casi nada en común con usted, ni culturalmente, ni religiosamente, ni nada." (translation? "I'm only Hispanic by accident, by nationality Croat, and surely have nothing to do with you, not culturally, not religiously, nothing.")
A: The translation is accurate on both counts. Forgive me for not saying "almost". What you said is "I have ALMOST NOTHING in common with you, not culturally, not religiously, nothing." In context, it was completely accurate.
B: American baroque BEGAN in the 1600's: the first clearly baroque Church in the New World was built in 1667. I know there are baroque Churches in Latin America (and Chile, which I've been to.) But there were also Churches of anachronistic style. Try again.
It is still Orthodox and Hispanic, having among its defenders St Isidore of Seville and St Martin of Braga, which means more to me than one whose Bishops here approve doing the sign of the cross backwards.
1. St Martin of Braga was an active defender of the triple immersion. He was not simply "consulting with the Pope". St Isidore consulted with the Pope, who said it doesn't matter either way. The IV Council allows for both, but chose the majority practice as acceptable for the sake of not confusing the Orthodox and heretical baptism ("in case the heretics opt triple immersion"). Since the reverse has occurred, we use triple.
As for "baroque", unless you are talking about the time period (which doesn't fit) the style of architecture used in the Church is not baroque, but Romanesque, as were the earliest Spanish Churches in the new World. In case you forget, Spanish Colonial Churches PREDATE the baroque era by about two hundred years. "Same thing". Right.
Yes, and you can see those paintings in probably all of the Orthodox countries. In St. Petersburg, there are whole Churches built in baroque still, with paintings, and awful music.
I know! I've seen them personally! And the man who filmed this knows my opinion of such modernizations is low. That said, knowing this, to use it as a gauge of a simple monk's faith-- who built that temple completely by hand-- is offensive and arrogant.
.i'm an orthodox christian of puerto-rican descent who became orthodox via the russian orthodox church in 1987..i went to this church on the 5th sunday of lent in the orthodox church (commemoration of st mary of egypt) to donate some ikons but the church was CLOSED...the sign outside the church said SANTA MISA (holy mass) at 11 a.m and NOT 10 a.m. as shown on this video....i waited for an hour ...no one even approached the church while i waited outside......
So... how was the feast at Mercy House? Our mission which was meeting there is not able to do so right now, and services are suspended for now until further notice, unless Father Patricio plans to do something on his own, which we aren't part of.
..there is a wonderful vibrant orthodox christian church not too far from San Isidro called the Cathedral of the Holy Virgin protection..59 east 2nd Street..between first and second avenues....the liturgy is at 9:15 every sunday...beautiful church and great choir...
No se conserva ni una sola iglesia mozárabe andalusí, salvo alguna ruina arqueológica. Las que se llaman hoy así se construyeron en zona cristianas. Ni siquiera se conservan las iglesias mozárabes de Toledo. El culto a las imágenes siguió el mismo camino que en las zonas cristianas del norte. En la época visigótica se puede hablar de aniconismo, pero tampoco tenemos muchos restos, sólo pequeñas iglesias marginales.
Of course I do! More importantly, do you? How did San Isidoro define the hierarchical structure of the Church? Maybe you will be surprised-- and escape ROME.
El Concilio de Burgos no fue un Concilio nacional de España sino solo del Reino de Castilla y León. Ese Concilio no afectó ni a Aragón ni a Navarra ni a Cataluña ni a la España bajo poder moro. En Cataluña el rito se cambió en el siglo IX de modo gradual y sin presión. En Aragón-Navarra no hubo Concilio. El Concilio de Burgos no avala la idea de una inexistente Iglesia "Ortodoxa" Hispana anterior.
I see youre favorits and I think to my self what a wonderful idea for spanish to come back to Orthodoxy, due o the Romancatholisism commited the most horrific genocid on the spanish people in the inquisition. I heard up to 5 milion people were killed.
Lo primero que podía hacer usted es estudiar algo de Historia en vez de tragarse los "Códigos da Vinci" al uso. Usted acusa gravemente a la Iglesia a la que difama y calumnia. En fin, usted no tiene ni idea de lo que dice, lo que no le disculpa por escribir en público lo que ha escrito.
The Inquisition wasn't a genocide at all. It was an office of the Roman church. I am proud to have converted to Orthodoxy, but this is why many Romans do not convert-- we do not have our facts right. 5 million did not get killed by the Inquisition. Spanish-- and all Westerners, really-- should return to Orthodoxy because it is their ancestral faith.
"How about 'list the commonalities and work through the perceived heresies.'"
How about "no thanks, it doesn't interest me", since I converted from the Roman Church and consider the very nature of the Roman Church substantially outside Orthodoxy?
We cannot seek re-unification, as those who created the Roman church were never part of Orthodoxy. We seek the re-unification to Orthodoxy of all those who are outside Her. Political conditions not withstanding, there are not "two truths" who need to be reunited in this case. Rome and Orthodoxy no longer believe the same things. The Church can only be One.
Nosotros usamos el rito Hispano (Mozárabe). Nosotros usamos los textos precismaticos, como los que encuentran en el "Liber Ordinum". La estructura de la Misa parece mas como el texto de Salvador de Talavera (1775) con unas diferencias. El concepto de un "brevario" corre contra el pensamiento de Ortodoxia, porque tratamos a hacer servicios en comunidad, y no solos. Pero es aparecido al Brevario Gotico, menos fiestas que hicerion despues de la cisma.
Dije "breviario" para referirme al libro que contiene la Liturgia de las Horas u Oficio Divino. Lo hice por brevedad. No tiene nada que ver con celebración comunitaria o individual. Si nos ponemos estrictos la palabra "misal" es extraña al rito hispano hasta 1500, pues lo que había era múltiples libros, algunos de contenido mixto, como el Liber Ordinum ¿Podría dar más detalles del texto de Salvador de Talavera? Gracias por sus respuestas.
Es un libro tipico del rito que contiene rubricas de la Misa. Y por supuesto que tiene algo que hacer con celebración comunitaria o individual-- eso es que significa la palabra "breviario". Nosotros usamos nuestros propios traducciones de los textos-- no somos dispuestos a celebrar completamente en Latín.
Creo que usted habla de la Capilla del Salvador de la Catedral de Salamanca, más conocida como Capilla de Talavera (y no Salvador de Talavera), en la que se celebra el rito hispano. Si no me equivoco usted se refiere al libro "Rúbricas generales, etc." de 1772, que es una guía para seguir el Missale Mixtum de 1500.
Perdone que insista, pero "breviario" significa "compendio". El Breviarium Gothicum se utiliza comunitariamente, por ejemplo en la Cap. Mozárabe de la Catedral de Toledo. Gracias.
2. En este punto tampoco no hay razón para discutir, porque estamos hablando de etymylogiañ y como recuerdo yo-- "breviarium" significa, en Español, "resumen" y "compendio"; pero el uso en el occidente despues de la císma signífico un acortamiento para uso individual. Pues, entiendo que no fue el uso de la Iglesia de España; pero para clarificar, especialmente aquí donde hay gente que usan brevarios, que no es un "brevario" tipico.
Neither were the Franks who forced the rite out of existence, imprisoning and putting to death the "dissident", Orthodox, free Bishops.... even Alfonso realized he was wrong but lacked the power to stop it....
I was searching for one of these churches in the past but could never find one and here I find it on Youtube of all places. Is this the only Spanish Orthodox church in the USA?
I am Spanish but attend an OCA parish but would love to have one of these in my town. Could anyone reply to this post and give me more info? Thank you.
This video docuements the beginning of the first step in a revolution occuring among western christians. Though this church by no means succeeds in authentically replicating the atmosphere of an actual 8th to 12th century Spanish Church in terms of architecture, chant, icons and other traditions, it comes far closer than most Roman Catholic Churches in the USA do. One can feel the desire they have for reviving an ancient latent Iberian spirituality. They are the hope of the future.
1. One monk put together the church, a replica of the colonial style common when the Spaniards came here. Where old style icons existed, he put them up: where icons did not but the saint was important, the priest put the best he could...
2...from an Orthodox standpoint, its architecture is not exactly post-schismatic either.Some features unique to pre-schism Churches are there that are not so noticeable...What is more important is that the texts of the services are preserved. Chants change: Hispanic chant likely changed during the Mozarabic period. We must work within our tradition. But what is important? The services are Orthodox!
I would say it's too colonial spanish-- it isn't really baroque either. I wish we had a tribelon. Ironically, our Archbishop's monastery in New Jersey's chapel looks like it has a tribelon overhead and they are actually Roman Rite (Sarum). A small t-shape? Huh? The altar is a box shape, freestanding. Hanging crosses? Good question. aniconic? That's rather a bit much to judge of a people coming out from under muslim domination?
I´ve seen it. I am not sure how many times I have to say the basic structure is "Spanish colonial" (as in Colonial America--15th century). Our Bishop suggested curtains. It is also worth considering that this was a Roman chapel rebuilt by one man. As for aniconism vs iconoclasm, *practically*, it makes no difference. Churches had their icons ripped out except the ones they couldn't get on the ceiling for the better part of 400 years by the Muslims.
Really? Have you ever seen a Visigothic manuscript? You really think there were no icons in Orthodox Spain? How do you feel about the Mozarabic period? Did you think the Muslims were peaceful rulers?
I never said they were anything like Eastern Orthodox Icons; the Spanish had their own style of iconography, retablos with images on them and frescoes on their walls of similar style to the Beati. You haven't answered about the relationship of Christians to Muslims. Can you now please?
No, I don't. They are all a part of the history of the Hispanic Orthodoxy. I understand they were different epochs; but you seem to assume too much of the Orthodox Catholics and too little of their persecutors. Believe what you wish.
Exacto. Exactamente como creí. Recuerde, que somos hermanos. Tengo una pregunta, de parte de mi esposa. ¿Cree Vd que el rito Romano debe solamente usar en Roma, y el Rito Bizantíno en Constantinopla? If not, our little crew is here for you. Tengo una palabra: libertad. Espero que discutimos un poco mas. Una pelea entre familia no duele.
But the frescoes match precisely in most cases the iconography of the manuscripts! This supports the assertion that the lack of iconography in Spanish Churches was forced.
Ok, present me ONE single visigothic church with those "frescoes" that match the miniatures of the beati, and end to this.
What it's irrelevant it's trying to defend icons in visigothic church, when there's no single prove of their existence. Better you could say: we use icons because they suit better the Orthodox conception and that's ok.
Why would I agree to a flawed conception? The Pantocrator of Taull and others match exactly the same style of the manuscripts. Regardless, you seem to think that the Muslims did not persecute these people, and they kept no icons out of preference. Perhaps because bell-ringing was banned in Spain we can now say they didn't ring them because they were against bells.
El Pantocrátor de Taull es románico del siglo XII y está en una zona de España que abandonó la liturgia hispana mucho antes que Aragón o Castilla (aprox. siglo IX-X). No guarda ninguna relación con la liturgia hispana ni con el arte visigótico o mozárabe. Con respecto a las campanas está documentado que se tocaban en territorio moro y además hay ejemplares de la época que se conservan. Sin embargo, estoy de acuerdo con usted en que la tolerancia mahometana en Al Andalus es un mito.
No, es porque ya estoy harto de discutir con Vd, porque yo conozco la história suficiente bien para saber que la liturgia occidental que Vd prefiere ofrecer la gente es una liturgia falsa, y Vd esta discutiendo porque tiene miedo que ritos Ortodoxos occidentales verdaderos se pueden dañar su "mision" del "rito Occidental" en la Iglesia Antioquena.
Disculpe otra vez. Claro que necesito practicar poco mas la lengua de mis padres, pero TÚ necesitas practicar la fe de los Santos Padres, ¡opuesto a la fe de la Iglesia Antioquena!
I cannot give you a definitive answer about the relationships between Christian and Muslims, they were to complex. Basically, yes, they were fairly tolerant most of the time, with exceptions, and the attitude varied accross centuries. It wasn't the same under the Caliphate, or ander the Almoravids.
Also the hispanic rite was used in the northern kingdoms never subjeted to the Muslims, did you know that?
Of course I did. So you believe although the Church produced many martyrs during this age, they were tolerant. Were you aware the people couldn't even ring bells?
A glimpse of how the Pre-Schism Church may have looked like. Wonderful.
magicsXfive 9 months ago
I attempted a visit a few weeks ago while in the city. It was closed during their hour of meditation. Are they still open?
edgardusXII 11 months ago
@edgardusXII priest is still there-- I called a few days ago.
joesuaiden 1 month ago
Le dan la bienvenida a Catolicos Romanos que son Hispanos a participar en el servicio?
Chichiri520 1 year ago
@muslador21
Agreed!
Chichiri520 1 year ago
What jurisdiction is this parish under?
account172 2 years ago
It would be really nice to see the Liturgy being celebrated at this Church. Which jurisdiction does this parish belong to?
cuttlefisch 2 years ago
To whom it may concern WE ARE ORTHODOX WE ARE NOT SCHISMATICS. JESUS CHRIST IS THE HEAD OF OUR CHURCH. WE have weatherd the ottoman empire the threats and raids from the west but we are still here we are strong we want a United Church, We stand for Peace,Byzantium is alive and well through out the world for those who think they have Vanished us.
Colts4ever123 2 years ago 2
When did the Spanish Church cease to be Orthodox? Was it at the great schism of 1054, or before? Is there an Orthodox presence in Spain today?
cuttlefisch 2 years ago
Yes there is Orthodoxy in Spain, along with several other Christian denominations. God bless!!!
kayaburning 2 years ago
What is the current situation with this mission? Is liturgy celebrated this month? If so, by whom?
Thank you
pedelcosa 3 years ago
Hey Joe,when you say Hispanic rite are you referring to the ancient Mozarabic rite of Spain/Portugal?
joel6575 3 years ago
Yes; "Mozarabic" is one, but not the only, name in reference to the rite.
joesuaiden 3 years ago
You Orthodox Christians waste your spiritual and biological lifetime by declaring others as Schismatics and Heretics. The body of Christ is divided and hurt. It got hurt and divided by Christians. Do not criticize others but look at yourselves. God bless you.
BUECHERRAZ 3 years ago 3
Well thank you, Cherazz, I have not heard an orthodox call anyone a schismatic, but I have heard them be angry that the 4th crusade was carried out by their western sisiters, Murderd a whole city looted a Cathedral for a 1000 years of Gold and Icons, the it fell to the Ottomans after help was requested by the Patriarch and no answer from the west, Christ and the Theotokos have shed tears since that day.
Colts4ever123 2 years ago
Just for the record Catholics and Protestants broke from us, But I love all Christians regardless as there are good people in all denominations.
kayaburning 2 years ago 2
@BUECHERRAZ
And dont forget to mention sectarianism as well.
Chichiri520 1 year ago
@BUECHERRAZ Wow, whos pointing fingers at who now?
ponyboy1488 1 year ago
@BUECHERRAZ God, you're so schismatic. - Nate
abookire 1 year ago
@BUECHERRAZ And you waste your time bitching on Youtube; it seems we all have our problems, no?
misterxeight 10 months ago 3
Well Joe, although I could never participate in your Church and I can't refer to it as Orthodox, I won't and can't judge your faith and that of your fellow congregants. Perhaps one day, something can be worked out and your parish (beautiful and ancient liturgy) can be (re)welcomed into the fold.
Xpycoctomos 3 years ago
I wouldn't want to be part of "the fold", but part of the Orthodox Church, which is less and less to be found in the official Church in these sad days.
joesuaiden 3 years ago
I think this church is schismatic and it should not be called Orthodox because it is not under any Orthodox Bishop and therefore not in communion with the Orthodox church.Such heresy is a big sin.
kourostatis 3 years ago
Our mission is under an Orthodox Bishop. The priest is currently not. Therefore services held there do commemorate the local Bishop.
joesuaiden 3 years ago
Is this Church in commmunion with the Orthodox Church. that is, is their bishop in communion with the MP. the OCA metropolitan, the EP... etc? I am not asking if this parish accepts us who are canonically Orthodox but if we are in official communion with them.
Thanks and sorry if this question was already posted and answered here.
God bless!
Xpy
Xpycoctomos 3 years ago
This Church is not under any Bishop. We have a mission of one family and a couple of other people which sometimes (but not recently) meets there which is under the Milan Synod, but the Milan Synod is not in communion with any official church. Hope that helps.
joesuaiden 3 years ago
In other words you are schismatic.
johnross12 3 years ago
No, in other words we are intelligent. Please tell me who were broke away from, without saying "the Orthodox Church", since the Orthodox Church is composed of many local Churches. Which one did we "break off" from?
joesuaiden 3 years ago
You can't say schismatic if they never broke off. However, their own jursdictional site says, "Our bishops have multiple lines of Apostolic Succession including schismatic Roman Catholic, Old Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Anglican as well as others."
Xpycoctomos 3 years ago
This is absolutely false. Please look at Orthodox Wiki under "Holy Synod of Milan". The Milan Synod is an Old Calendarist Church. We would never write such stupidity and I would love you to tell me where that website of "ours" is
joesuaiden 3 years ago
our official websites are orthodoxwest,dot,net, or milansynodusa,dot,org in America, for more information.
joesuaiden 3 years ago
Checkout on youtube the CZECH documentary STOLEN KOSOVO for the truth concerning this issue!! Christian Kosovo is dying and the Christian Serbs are in the last stages of being ethnically cleansed, please watch is documentary to spread awareness!!
SerbDav 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
They just need to get rid of the pews and baroque/mannerist "icons"
bezmolvie 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
lol. I don't know why they are so stuck on those. Western medieval icons are far more beautiful than that heretical art.
bezmolvie 3 years ago
Colonial Spanish is not only baroque. specifically I was referring to the architecture. What ever happened to "I don't care, I'm not part of you people and I am not even Hispanic anyway"? Why don't you answer questions about how your Patriarchate sponsors the inclusion of Roman Catholic and Anglican liturgies in your churches in America?
joesuaiden 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
They will listen to *you*. As an Antiochian, they are YOUR Patriarch and Bishops.
To quote:"Sólo soy hispano por accidente, soy de ascendencia croata, y seguramente tengo casi nada en común con usted, ni culturalmente, ni religiosamente, ni nada." (translation? "I'm only Hispanic by accident, by nationality Croat, and surely have nothing to do with you, not culturally, not religiously, nothing.")
I save my messages.
joesuaiden 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
A: The translation is accurate on both counts. Forgive me for not saying "almost". What you said is "I have ALMOST NOTHING in common with you, not culturally, not religiously, nothing." In context, it was completely accurate.
B: American baroque BEGAN in the 1600's: the first clearly baroque Church in the New World was built in 1667. I know there are baroque Churches in Latin America (and Chile, which I've been to.) But there were also Churches of anachronistic style. Try again.
joesuaiden 3 years ago
Excuse me. 1667 was in Spain. The earliest in the new world was in Lima in 1673.
joesuaiden 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
"That's 1600's for me". That's also when it BEGAN, not when it was at its height.
"agresividad innecesaria"-- yet who has taken so much time out to mock us without reason?
joesuaiden 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
It is still Orthodox and Hispanic, having among its defenders St Isidore of Seville and St Martin of Braga, which means more to me than one whose Bishops here approve doing the sign of the cross backwards.
joesuaiden 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
1. St Martin of Braga was an active defender of the triple immersion. He was not simply "consulting with the Pope". St Isidore consulted with the Pope, who said it doesn't matter either way. The IV Council allows for both, but chose the majority practice as acceptable for the sake of not confusing the Orthodox and heretical baptism ("in case the heretics opt triple immersion"). Since the reverse has occurred, we use triple.
joesuaiden 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
As for "baroque", unless you are talking about the time period (which doesn't fit) the style of architecture used in the Church is not baroque, but Romanesque, as were the earliest Spanish Churches in the new World. In case you forget, Spanish Colonial Churches PREDATE the baroque era by about two hundred years. "Same thing". Right.
joesuaiden 3 years ago
Unfortunately, Father likes such pictures. Of course, in many churches in Russia I've seen with my own eyes, there are many such pictures.
joesuaiden 3 years ago
Yes, and you can see those paintings in probably all of the Orthodox countries. In St. Petersburg, there are whole Churches built in baroque still, with paintings, and awful music.
bezmolvie 3 years ago
I know! I've seen them personally! And the man who filmed this knows my opinion of such modernizations is low. That said, knowing this, to use it as a gauge of a simple monk's faith-- who built that temple completely by hand-- is offensive and arrogant.
joesuaiden 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
.i'm an orthodox christian of puerto-rican descent who became orthodox via the russian orthodox church in 1987..i went to this church on the 5th sunday of lent in the orthodox church (commemoration of st mary of egypt) to donate some ikons but the church was CLOSED...the sign outside the church said SANTA MISA (holy mass) at 11 a.m and NOT 10 a.m. as shown on this video....i waited for an hour ...no one even approached the church while i waited outside......
dimtry19 3 years ago
So... how was the feast at Mercy House? Our mission which was meeting there is not able to do so right now, and services are suspended for now until further notice, unless Father Patricio plans to do something on his own, which we aren't part of.
joesuaiden 3 years ago
..sorry i don't know or belong to mercy house ...what is your relationship to them?...
dimtry19 3 years ago
Not good...no one comment on this? I was thinking of visiting this comming week (Sunday, Dec 21).
pedelcosa 3 years ago
..there is a wonderful vibrant orthodox christian church not too far from San Isidro called the Cathedral of the Holy Virgin protection..59 east 2nd Street..between first and second avenues....the liturgy is at 9:15 every sunday...beautiful church and great choir...
dimtry19 3 years ago
No se conserva ni una sola iglesia mozárabe andalusí, salvo alguna ruina arqueológica. Las que se llaman hoy así se construyeron en zona cristianas. Ni siquiera se conservan las iglesias mozárabes de Toledo. El culto a las imágenes siguió el mismo camino que en las zonas cristianas del norte. En la época visigótica se puede hablar de aniconismo, pero tampoco tenemos muchos restos, sólo pequeñas iglesias marginales.
thurii 3 years ago
Spain always catholic, the true religion
ironhearts23 3 years ago 3
And we are Catholic- Orthodox Catholic. Until 1080 Hispania was an autonomous Church, until it was forced to submit to Rome at the Synod of Burgos.
josephsuaiden 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
Of course I do! More importantly, do you? How did San Isidoro define the hierarchical structure of the Church? Maybe you will be surprised-- and escape ROME.
josephsuaiden 3 years ago
El Concilio de Burgos no fue un Concilio nacional de España sino solo del Reino de Castilla y León. Ese Concilio no afectó ni a Aragón ni a Navarra ni a Cataluña ni a la España bajo poder moro. En Cataluña el rito se cambió en el siglo IX de modo gradual y sin presión. En Aragón-Navarra no hubo Concilio. El Concilio de Burgos no avala la idea de una inexistente Iglesia "Ortodoxa" Hispana anterior.
thurii 3 years ago 8
ha pablo engles i croato
2paacalipse 3 years ago
I see youre favorits and I think to my self what a wonderful idea for spanish to come back to Orthodoxy, due o the Romancatholisism commited the most horrific genocid on the spanish people in the inquisition. I heard up to 5 milion people were killed.
This shouldnt be forgoten !
2paacalipse 3 years ago
Lo primero que podía hacer usted es estudiar algo de Historia en vez de tragarse los "Códigos da Vinci" al uso. Usted acusa gravemente a la Iglesia a la que difama y calumnia. En fin, usted no tiene ni idea de lo que dice, lo que no le disculpa por escribir en público lo que ha escrito.
antifazdeterciopelo 3 years ago 2
The Inquisition wasn't a genocide at all. It was an office of the Roman church. I am proud to have converted to Orthodoxy, but this is why many Romans do not convert-- we do not have our facts right. 5 million did not get killed by the Inquisition. Spanish-- and all Westerners, really-- should return to Orthodoxy because it is their ancestral faith.
josephsuaiden 3 years ago 3
"How about 'list the commonalities and work through the perceived heresies.'"
How about "no thanks, it doesn't interest me", since I converted from the Roman Church and consider the very nature of the Roman Church substantially outside Orthodoxy?
joesuaiden 3 years ago
We cannot seek re-unification, as those who created the Roman church were never part of Orthodoxy. We seek the re-unification to Orthodoxy of all those who are outside Her. Political conditions not withstanding, there are not "two truths" who need to be reunited in this case. Rome and Orthodoxy no longer believe the same things. The Church can only be One.
josephsuaiden 3 years ago
¿Qué misal, qué ritual y qué breviario utilizan?
antifazdeterciopelo 3 years ago
Nosotros usamos el rito Hispano (Mozárabe). Nosotros usamos los textos precismaticos, como los que encuentran en el "Liber Ordinum". La estructura de la Misa parece mas como el texto de Salvador de Talavera (1775) con unas diferencias. El concepto de un "brevario" corre contra el pensamiento de Ortodoxia, porque tratamos a hacer servicios en comunidad, y no solos. Pero es aparecido al Brevario Gotico, menos fiestas que hicerion despues de la cisma.
josephsuaiden 3 years ago
Dije "breviario" para referirme al libro que contiene la Liturgia de las Horas u Oficio Divino. Lo hice por brevedad. No tiene nada que ver con celebración comunitaria o individual. Si nos ponemos estrictos la palabra "misal" es extraña al rito hispano hasta 1500, pues lo que había era múltiples libros, algunos de contenido mixto, como el Liber Ordinum ¿Podría dar más detalles del texto de Salvador de Talavera? Gracias por sus respuestas.
antifazdeterciopelo 3 years ago
Es un libro tipico del rito que contiene rubricas de la Misa. Y por supuesto que tiene algo que hacer con celebración comunitaria o individual-- eso es que significa la palabra "breviario". Nosotros usamos nuestros propios traducciones de los textos-- no somos dispuestos a celebrar completamente en Latín.
joesuaiden 3 years ago
Creo que usted habla de la Capilla del Salvador de la Catedral de Salamanca, más conocida como Capilla de Talavera (y no Salvador de Talavera), en la que se celebra el rito hispano. Si no me equivoco usted se refiere al libro "Rúbricas generales, etc." de 1772, que es una guía para seguir el Missale Mixtum de 1500.
Perdone que insista, pero "breviario" significa "compendio". El Breviarium Gothicum se utiliza comunitariamente, por ejemplo en la Cap. Mozárabe de la Catedral de Toledo. Gracias.
antifazdeterciopelo 3 years ago
1. Si, es el mismo libro.
2. En este punto tampoco no hay razón para discutir, porque estamos hablando de etymylogiañ y como recuerdo yo-- "breviarium" significa, en Español, "resumen" y "compendio"; pero el uso en el occidente despues de la císma signífico un acortamiento para uso individual. Pues, entiendo que no fue el uso de la Iglesia de España; pero para clarificar, especialmente aquí donde hay gente que usan brevarios, que no es un "brevario" tipico.
joesuaiden 3 years ago
Where is the orthodox downfall ?
23.000 protestants sects have parted with RCC and not one came from Orthodoxy.
People are running away from RCC
2paacalipse 4 years ago
..find your spiritual home in the grace and beauty of the orthodox christian church...god bless you....
vaio720 4 years ago
A lot of spanish people turn back to orthodoxy anfter realising the roman catholic down fall
2paacalipse 4 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
Neither was Cardinal Humbert....
joesuaiden 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
Neither were the Franks who forced the rite out of existence, imprisoning and putting to death the "dissident", Orthodox, free Bishops.... even Alfonso realized he was wrong but lacked the power to stop it....
joesuaiden 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
I was searching for one of these churches in the past but could never find one and here I find it on Youtube of all places. Is this the only Spanish Orthodox church in the USA?
I am Spanish but attend an OCA parish but would love to have one of these in my town. Could anyone reply to this post and give me more info? Thank you.
REVtalk1 4 years ago
Sorry about the delay. Yes, I can give you more detailed info. Please write me at joseph dot suaiden at gmail dot com
joesuaiden 4 years ago
Alo, Denis, good video, I hope we will have the site up soon for your video. Anyway, we had the wedding last Saturday, no service tomorrow.
josephsuaiden 4 years ago
This video docuements the beginning of the first step in a revolution occuring among western christians. Though this church by no means succeeds in authentically replicating the atmosphere of an actual 8th to 12th century Spanish Church in terms of architecture, chant, icons and other traditions, it comes far closer than most Roman Catholic Churches in the USA do. One can feel the desire they have for reviving an ancient latent Iberian spirituality. They are the hope of the future.
carolking 4 years ago
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DanVilAl 4 years ago
1. One monk put together the church, a replica of the colonial style common when the Spaniards came here. Where old style icons existed, he put them up: where icons did not but the saint was important, the priest put the best he could...
josephsuaiden 4 years ago
2...from an Orthodox standpoint, its architecture is not exactly post-schismatic either.Some features unique to pre-schism Churches are there that are not so noticeable...What is more important is that the texts of the services are preserved. Chants change: Hispanic chant likely changed during the Mozarabic period. We must work within our tradition. But what is important? The services are Orthodox!
josephsuaiden 4 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
I would say it's too colonial spanish-- it isn't really baroque either. I wish we had a tribelon. Ironically, our Archbishop's monastery in New Jersey's chapel looks like it has a tribelon overhead and they are actually Roman Rite (Sarum). A small t-shape? Huh? The altar is a box shape, freestanding. Hanging crosses? Good question. aniconic? That's rather a bit much to judge of a people coming out from under muslim domination?
joesuaiden 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
I´ve seen it. I am not sure how many times I have to say the basic structure is "Spanish colonial" (as in Colonial America--15th century). Our Bishop suggested curtains. It is also worth considering that this was a Roman chapel rebuilt by one man. As for aniconism vs iconoclasm, *practically*, it makes no difference. Churches had their icons ripped out except the ones they couldn't get on the ceiling for the better part of 400 years by the Muslims.
josephsuaiden 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
Really? Have you ever seen a Visigothic manuscript? You really think there were no icons in Orthodox Spain? How do you feel about the Mozarabic period? Did you think the Muslims were peaceful rulers?
joesuaiden 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
I never said they were anything like Eastern Orthodox Icons; the Spanish had their own style of iconography, retablos with images on them and frescoes on their walls of similar style to the Beati. You haven't answered about the relationship of Christians to Muslims. Can you now please?
joesuaiden 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
No, I don't. They are all a part of the history of the Hispanic Orthodoxy. I understand they were different epochs; but you seem to assume too much of the Orthodox Catholics and too little of their persecutors. Believe what you wish.
joesuaiden 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
Are you Hispanic, Dan?
josephsuaiden 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
Exacto. Exactamente como creí. Recuerde, que somos hermanos. Tengo una pregunta, de parte de mi esposa. ¿Cree Vd que el rito Romano debe solamente usar en Roma, y el Rito Bizantíno en Constantinopla? If not, our little crew is here for you. Tengo una palabra: libertad. Espero que discutimos un poco mas. Una pelea entre familia no duele.
josephsuaiden 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
do you have an email?
josephsuaiden 3 years ago
Can you document that?
nycxenia 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
"Churches in Spain never had icons, neither in visigothic times nor in mulsim times..."
nycxenia 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
But the frescoes match precisely in most cases the iconography of the manuscripts! This supports the assertion that the lack of iconography in Spanish Churches was forced.
josephsuaiden 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
Irrelevant.
josephsuaiden 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
Are you so ridiculous as to pretend that didn't exist.
josephsuaiden 3 years ago
Ok, present me ONE single visigothic church with those "frescoes" that match the miniatures of the beati, and end to this.
What it's irrelevant it's trying to defend icons in visigothic church, when there's no single prove of their existence. Better you could say: we use icons because they suit better the Orthodox conception and that's ok.
DanVilAl 3 years ago
Why would I agree to a flawed conception? The Pantocrator of Taull and others match exactly the same style of the manuscripts. Regardless, you seem to think that the Muslims did not persecute these people, and they kept no icons out of preference. Perhaps because bell-ringing was banned in Spain we can now say they didn't ring them because they were against bells.
josephsuaiden 3 years ago
El Pantocrátor de Taull es románico del siglo XII y está en una zona de España que abandonó la liturgia hispana mucho antes que Aragón o Castilla (aprox. siglo IX-X). No guarda ninguna relación con la liturgia hispana ni con el arte visigótico o mozárabe. Con respecto a las campanas está documentado que se tocaban en territorio moro y además hay ejemplares de la época que se conservan. Sin embargo, estoy de acuerdo con usted en que la tolerancia mahometana en Al Andalus es un mito.
thurii 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
Bueno, Vd. esta libre, puede ir al Iglesia Antioquena si no le gusta, como Vd. me dijo. Ya estoy bien cansado de discutir con Vd, gracias.
joesuaiden 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
No, es porque ya estoy harto de discutir con Vd, porque yo conozco la história suficiente bien para saber que la liturgia occidental que Vd prefiere ofrecer la gente es una liturgia falsa, y Vd esta discutiendo porque tiene miedo que ritos Ortodoxos occidentales verdaderos se pueden dañar su "mision" del "rito Occidental" en la Iglesia Antioquena.
joesuaiden 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
Disculpe, no conozco ese palabra "topmar". Gracias.
joesuaiden 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
Disculpe otra vez. Claro que necesito practicar poco mas la lengua de mis padres, pero TÚ necesitas practicar la fe de los Santos Padres, ¡opuesto a la fe de la Iglesia Antioquena!
joesuaiden 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
Bueno, entonces, que Dios le bendiga.
joesuaiden 3 years ago
No importa. Ya estoy cansado.
joesuaiden 3 years ago
I cannot give you a definitive answer about the relationships between Christian and Muslims, they were to complex. Basically, yes, they were fairly tolerant most of the time, with exceptions, and the attitude varied accross centuries. It wasn't the same under the Caliphate, or ander the Almoravids.
Also the hispanic rite was used in the northern kingdoms never subjeted to the Muslims, did you know that?
DanVilAl 3 years ago
Of course I did. So you believe although the Church produced many martyrs during this age, they were tolerant. Were you aware the people couldn't even ring bells?
joesuaiden 3 years ago
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DanVilAl 3 years ago
Nice video
HVACSoldier 4 years ago
What an interesting place.
Cildara 4 years ago