"Symptoms of Alcoholism" by Father Joseph C. Martin

[jasonroyyoung]

Alcohol is basically a legal poison, when abused, so instead of "drink responsibly", responsibly drink so it's not abused but very fine line between the two. Some people can handle it, others can't. Nobody needs to surrender to a "higher power" just understand that an alcoholic cannot stop without help and belief in himself or herself that it can and will be done. Without that belief in yourself not a whole lot can be done with anything that anyone does not just an alcoholic.

[jasonroyyoung]

Well listen to what this guy says about the nature of an alcoholic, they have already given the power to alcohol and let it choose what the alcoholic is going to do, drink, alcohol is a legal poison that kills the brain like is said in the full video. The only difference between alcohol and a lethal sedative that has been banned from medical use for decades one molocule of water! When alcohol is abused it has the same effect as either on the brain, a person basically goes braindead an dies so...

[ashit73]

Alcoholism exists mainly in the mind; therefore, it is bound to have an infinite number of characteristics and variables to some degree; the average person will have trillions of thoughts and rising mental states before they die. "If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic." If you are an alcoholic of the hopeless variety, you may not be able to stop on your own.

[BlatzBeer]

"(addiction)...once contracted...progresses until death."

Untrue. An NIAAA survey of over 43,000 Americans found that 17.7% identified as being alcohol dependent/abusers managed to go back to "low-risk" use (moderation). Interestingly, the same survey found that 75% of those who overcame alcohol dependence or abuse did it on their own, with absolutely no treatment or support group attendance.

Sorry, there's a lot of misinformation out there from so-called "experts."

[Westalong]

@BlatzBeer

So the 17.7 % go back to a more moderate rate of poison ingestion which means that they kill themselves more slowly. If a person has to ingest a moderate amount of poison on a regular basis in order to feel good what would you call that person?

[BlatzBeer]

@Westalong The rest of society calls them "social drinkers" along with 65%+ of Americans. I would call them people who consciously took control over their lives and came to grips, in their own way, with self-defeating behavior. Not the way I approached my own substance abuse problems, but the fact remains that much of what AA teaches is just plain myth. A few famous folks who moderated after problem drinking: Bing Crosby, Steve Martin, Johnny Carson, Robert Redford.

[Westalong]

@BlatzBeer

I congratulate you on beating your substance abuse problem but the concept of controlled use of a mind-altering drug such as alcohol, nicotine, cocaine, marijuana being called social drinking/smoking/snorting/smok­ing is deluding millions of people. If you have to use mind-altering toxic substances with or without control in order to cope or function then your reality/normality is seriously compromised. As Scott Peck says...."we are all mentally ill to a greater or lesser extent"

[BlatzBeer]

@Westalong I contend that it's no more delusional and misleading a concept than telling millions of people that they are "powerless" over this "disease" and that they must somehow "surrender" (whatever that means) to an external "higher power." I've personally witnessed, over three decades, how destructive to a person's recovery those ideas can be for most. And serious medical/sociological studies agree. Even AA's own data (embarrassingly) agrees.

[rickyd0821]

I have been sober for almost 8 yrs in AA, and my life is better than I could have ever dreamed, most of all, I am honest with myself. You dont have to defend what is right, and if you are critisizing AA than you probably have a resentment, otherwise, why would you bother?

[DCFunBud]

Father should be selling veg-o-matics.

[0penh3art]

some of us ENJOY drinking, damnit

[somethingdiffereable]

This man is the Ayatolah of delusional pseudo-science in addiction treatment. Isn't it funny how people go for help in church basements to treat the trauma suffered in the church building.

[FACES4kids]

The definition of an alcoholic is someone who minimizes, lies about and has trouble with relationships due to our drinking. If this fits you, and you are miserable, come on into AA and we will welcome you with open arms. You will be in the right place.

[courtkidx]

@FACES4kids Interesting how your inviting people to AA, when the traditions say attraction rather than promotion. Lead by example, show that hope is possible through your experience, strength and hope.

[AnviIOfKrom]

The first 20 seconds of this video is a baseless myth at best and a bald faced lie at worst...

[keleeemo]

I have been sober 7 years by the Grace of God and AA. I nearly died and I would not be typing these words without AA and the solution it offered.

AA works but only if you work it.

[thorrgod]

I've been sober for 17 years, and my sobriety is attributed 100%to my involvement in the program.

Spacestate claims AA is a cult.....yeah okay, and I have a pretty red bridge in San Francisco that I'd like to sell him. I thought the same thing until I actually got involved and figured out that it was just a bunch of people helping one another to stay sober. Ignorance is not bliss people, so if your going to make claims about something, at least know what the hell your talking about.

[Corrupt5358]

Alcoholism is not a disease!

[otter57]

Far too encompassing - there are obviously a range of circumstances and a range of addiction types.

[Towgnr14]

It works if you work it and we are all worth it.

[spacestate]

No wonder AA doesn't "work". You're just spinning your wheels, while your sponser is busy creating defects for you to "work on", what a worthless load of crap. It's as much of a waste of time reasoning with AA true believers as trying to have a sensible conversation with a Moonie or Jehova's Witness. AA is a cult and always has been.

[JLANDIS1043]

I'm assuming you already experienced AA before and failed to keep sober. Since you know so much about alcoholism, why don't you enlighten me about another way to get help.

[kev1nphoen1x]

Hello All, I have spent the Last month

Sorting My Had a little Drink Song Out.

Written For My Sister Who is an AA.

It is a positive song so Please give it some of your time it Helped my sister

Takecare Kevin Phoenix

[rwsandman]

And read the Big Book page 39.

[rwsandman]

Don't save a chair for me.

[just2w4tch]

Oh... shit.

[jmg4314]

LMAO "good old boy's network". We are not talking about a social club but rather saving lives. Hidden agendas and vested interests. DUH!! where are the financial gains of this hidden agenda when AA is fully self suporting and does not accept donations. And believe me alcholism is a disease. Rarely have we seen people who end up in treatment that don't have a problem. A person without a problem usually goes on vacation for a few weeks, not a treatment center.

[rwsandman]

AA and the treatment industry are a "good old boy's network" full of hidden agendas and vested interests. They use the disease model to bludgeon people into treatment and enforce participation in "aftercare" (AA meetings for the rest of your life). I got out of treatment 10 years ago, no AA meetings, and I'm doing fine. And I can take a few drinks on occasion and go right back to not drinking for months, even years.

[rwsandman]

"Once caught progresses till death". How does one "catch" alcoholism? From a toilet seat? Seriously, the disease concept serves the multi-billion-dollar treatment industry by making treatment payable by health insurance. There are also many "addictions counselors" who have no credentials other than being recovering AA's. Yet, when criticized, AA's will often reply "you're only in it for the money!". How ironic. The disease concept has never been proven.

[prschuster]

Instead of saying alcoholism IS a disease, I think it's more accurate to say that it INVOLVES disease processes, which may include imbalances of neurotransmitters or THIQ. But alcoholism also involves the free will decision to take that first drink. Alcoholism involves both a disease and a choice. To say it is completely one or the other is too simplistic. I just think the disease model goes too far.

[jmg4314]

Well go argue with the American Medical Association who recognizes alcoholism as a disease. Why do you spend so much time posting about how you detest AA and the disease concept? sounds like somebody is a bit obessed with alcholism. Funny that I don't know any social drinkers who just happened check out AA or ended up in treatment centers like you did.

[evet45]

You don't need to "catch" a disease, ie" Heart disease or gum disease from palque buid up,,,there are many diseases that are not coontagious. there are diseases that are genetic like Huntington's.

[AnviIOfKrom]

@evet45

LIAR!!!

[denn765]

Not all who drink oruse persistently are addicts and/ or alcoholics. Some are just heavy drinkers or users. If that was you then great, congrats! Now go away and do something productive! AA is for alcoholics only.

[Impermanence]

Sounds like denial to me.

[4myshasta]

You're so right :) I'm NOT bragging!

[4myshasta]

I have NO willpower in anything else in my life but I quit drinking 15 years ago without AA or ANY family/friend support. That's me and I'm not saying anyone can do it but I did so it's a proven, AA is NOT the ONLY way! I HATED AA and HATE it to this very DAY! This is NOT bragging. This is stating a FACT.

[blackeconomics]

SILLY OLE BUGGER

[backwoodsmister]

"prscheister,"people like you go out of their way to try & say AA is bullshit. If you were able to quit, GREAT. But there are millions that can't no matter how hard they try. They have extreme "willpower" in other areas, but with alcohol their willpower is gone. I went to AA because I couldn't quit and I learned a new way to live that keeps me sober FOR FREE. I am not "told what to do," I am more free than I ever have been. So, why knock it for those who love it? Go brag to someone who cares.

[prschuster]

I say that if you drink again you start where you left off because that's where your body was when you last drank. This notion that alcoholism is a disease that continues to progress even when you're not actively drinking sounds like voodoo to me.

[4359634]

It sounds like voodoo to you because it makes no logical sence to your mind. This man is and was absolutly correct. Alcoholism continues to progress even while were sober. I and many other sober alkies see it happen first-hand. Nothing about Alcholism makes sence but neither do the spiritual pricipals or recovery but they work great anyway.

[prschuster]

And what is the pathogenesis of this imaginary disease which progresses even while you are not actively drinking? It sounds like voodoo spirits in your brain.

[4359634]

Please elaborate on pathogenesis of this imaginary disease, and Voodoo spiris in your brain!

[prschuster]

There are no voodoo spirits I know of and I don't know of any physical or chemical pathological mechanism that would cause your brain to automatically become even more addicted during periods of non-use. So there is nothing to elaborate on.

[4359634]

So, what of the belief that alcoholism is Physical, mental & spiritual? Do you believe the entire problem of alcholism is in the brain? Are humans just a combination of chemicals that work in explainable and Mechanized ways? How much do we not know about, just how our physical bodies work? You sound highly educated, like one who can explain-away anything. If you can't explain it, it must not be true!

[prschuster]

wtf? ... highly educated? Here we have a priest calling alcoholism a progressive disease, referring to that claim as an "infallible fact". He's not a medical doctor and only religious people refer to soemthing as infallible. I quit drinking 12 years ago because I know if I started up again I probably wouldn't be able to handle alcohol any better than I did back then. End of story. It's useless mumbo jumbo to call it a progressive disease. Just put the plug in the jug and be done with it.

[prschuster]

And then when I give this answer to 4359634, I get an abusive message in my inbox, telling me I have a big ego and I can't be a "Real" alcoholic because I don't know how impossible it is to get rid of an addiction. Well I do know because I've been there too, and I'm sick & tired of seeing people hoodwinked by being told that their disease gets worse the longer they stay sober. That's just a ruse to get them to go to endless meetings for the rest of their lives because relapse is inevitable.

[rimshot2008]

12 years. Good for you. Fr Martin is saying that if you resumed drinking now, that your alcoholism would have progressed during those 12 years, and the effects would be much worse than they were 12 years ago. You don't pick up where you left off - and that's a fact, Jack.

[prschuster]

The effects of the alcohol would be worse now than they were 12 years ago when I quit because I'm 12 years older and my body is less able to handle the poison. Age makes a big difference.

[rimshot2008]

Too much to say in 500 characters, but when you were drinking, you had a metabolic change, and became unable to process alcohol normally. The liver is the primary organ involved. The "disease" does indeed progress in the liver, and if you want to call it ageing, that's OK, but the fact is it gets worse and the consequences of relapse are far worse than where you "left off". I have seen it hundreds of times. Relapse is NOT inevitable. Once you learn how to stay sober it's a piece of cake

[backwoodsmister]

"prscheister,"people like you go out of their way to try & say AA is bullshit. If you were able to quit, GREAT. But there are millions that can't no matter how hard they try. They have extreme "willpower" in other areas, but with alcohol their willpower is gone. I went to AA because I couldn't quit and I learned a new way to live that keeps me sober FOR FREE. I am not "told what to do," I am more free than I ever have been. So, why knock it for those who love it? Go brag to someone who cares.

[prschuster]

"prscheister, people like you go out of their way to try & say AA is bullshit..."

You're not addressing what I have to say about the disease theory. I have no problem with people voluntarily going to AA meetings. But the misinformation about some imaginary progressive disease is just a way to hoodwink people into thinking they are in mortal danger of relapsing for the rest of their lives. Give me a break. I'm not apologizing for being able to see through that ruse.

[backwoodsmister]

I am not "hoodwinked" by the idea that Alcoholism is a disease. This theory did however, help to explain the unexplainable to MILLIONS of people that could not find relief otherwise. I don't want you to apologize, I could give a shit less if you hate AA, but you can't say it is bullshit when so many people are able to escape their addictions. For you to try & discourage people from making their own decision about AA and possibly finding help, makes you a fucking close-minded, know-it-all prick.

[prschuster]

"For you to try & discourage people from making their own decision about AA and possibly finding help, makes you a fucking close-minded, know-it-all prick"

And you apparently don't give a damn about the millions who don't do well with the 12-step program, who don't need to be told that they have a chronic progressive disease, and who would do a lot better if they were made aware of alternative approaches to recovery that didn't label them as powerless, defective and diseased.

[backwoodsmister]

"prsheister," instead of bashing AA & trying to destroy the idea of a progressive DISEASE that has helped bring MILLIONS understand their addiction, could you enlighten us & tell the suffering addict about your "alternative" approaches? I hear alot of bitching, but not ONE SINGLE SOLUTION from you phonies. Maybe the homeless heroin addict can scrape up $100/hr for therapy or check into some new age spa rehab, huh? Let's hear the "alternatives" you have experience with, along with the PRICETAG.

[prschuster]

If you want to know more about alternatives to AA, put AA alternatives in your search engine. There are many of them including SOS, Rational Recovery, SMART Recovery, LifeRing, Moderation Management & Women For Sobriety. As for "knocking AA" I only speak for myself and say exactly what I think. As for the disease model, it either is a disease or it is not a disease. It can't be a disease for some & not for others. I say it's not a disease.

[emhond]

Hmmm.. and if one were to look more into Moderation Management and actually do their research... you would find that the lady whom founded it, despised AA and believed that she didnt have a problem.... fast foward a bit and what happens? She gets drunk, behind the wheel, and kills someone (a little kid, to be exact)

I am not saying that AA is the ONLY way... but many times, it is the denial and the DISEASE that shuns us away... and that would be denial

[prschuster]

Audrey Kishline had gone back to AA and was working a program of total abstinence three months before her fatal car crash. So you could blame it all on either AA or MM, or maybe her elapse had nothing to do with either program. People do quit when they are ready to, and it's unfortunate that something terrible as this has to be the event that sobers someone up. I can only count myself lucky in that regard.

[evet45]

@prschuster I had not seen your comment before. Actually Audree Kishine whad reportedly hooked with Stanton Peele who had convinced her that she could safely go back to moderate drinking. Then the car crash, and she was not sober.

And, I admire your sobriety.