Brooklyn Monk in Asia: International Bokator Fight (Part 1)

[44AznBoy]

Bokator is gay Im cambodian I dont see any bokator moves.

[brooklynmonk1]

@44AznBoy If Bokator is gay then why do you want to see the moves? In fact, how do you even know the moves? Unless, of course, you yourself are gay. So which is it? You want to see Bokator moves or you dont want to?

[khmerbraveheart]

whats up wth the ground. everyones slipping hahaah..

[KensaiZen]

5. Cambodia ceased to be a major power in SEA after the fall of Angkor and was overshadowed by Siam who became the next major cultural influence in SEA

We need to differentiate what was Angkorian and what was Siamese seeing as both countries have been influenced by each other in different periods. The only way to see that is if we compare modern khmer culture with Angkorian culture then discard anything that resembled Siamese. thus be sure that it is original khmer.

[KensaiZen]

3. Cambodia was also occupied by the siamese for many years. Who is to say that the art that we see is not one that was influenced by the Siamese? The glyphs certainly do not show that many techniques and the monks cannot say how long the teachings have been passed down from. All information regarding origin is speculative.

4. No one in Thailand denies there was cultural influence from khmers. but to say Thai culture originated from khmers is lies.

[titouille100]

@KensaiZen i don't undestand what do you have to come on khmer post to make your propaganda ? Are you afraid about something or have some inferiority complex ?

[KensaiZen]

@titouille100 propaganda? this is the truth to dispel the fake claims of the Khmers. How blind are you to not see san kim saens bokator is not bokator? Khmer history is fabricated history which is being used as a weapon to tarnish the reputation of Thailand. This isn't propaganda, this is using archaeological evidence to prove that the khmer history being taught to khmers is fake. Why do khmers hate Thai? because they THINK Thai steal their culture when its the other way around.

[titouille100]

@KensaiZen you want to make your story to History. Stop to read book from you Palace. Tai have 4000 years of history but in China and as brigands. And today Tai continue to rob their neighbors again. It is genetic. And Louis Vuitton is not a chines brand ! Be care of fake products !

[titouille100]

@titouille100 i don't hate thai, because i have thai friends and usually go to thailand. and khmers don't hate thai or jalous because we have a high and original culture. Why care about copy or fake one ? Thailand has a bad reputation in the world, not because of us. But let the History to the Humanity, only the baboon believe in story

[KensaiZen]

@titouille100 well your assumption that I read the history from Thailand is a bit silly. If I based my research on assumption based history and biased sources then I would end up with cambodian history :) once more we see another propaganda muppet. History books changes with new evidence. Things that were assumed 700 years ago are proven wrong so people should change their point of view, not blindly believe its still real. silly boy.

[khmerbraveheart]

@KensaiZen other way around? thats odd, cause India went to Cambodia and in thier book. Thailand never existed when they first went there.. get the fuck out faggot.

[KensaiZen]

@khmerbraveheart No shit brainiac. There was no cambodia back then either. you people are fucking dense. did you think the people did not exist untill a country is named? what are you, retarded? FuNan isn't even a Khmer kingdom. False claims by you dumbasses have been disproven time and again with facts and evidence. Why don't you go and look up on the subject of your royal dance? its been proven its Siamese lol just like everything else you have. Dumb fucker

[trukambo]

@KensaiZen stop embarrassing yourself and thailand.

[KensaiZen]

@trukambo embarassing how? in that time ive actually found evidence which proves FuNan and even Chenla were not Khmer kingdoms. well done you :) did you really think Khmers know anything about their own history? and you people believe it hook line and sinker. Why? because you feel sorry for them. Whatever floats your boat.

[trukambo]

@KensaiZen hey keyboard hero. how do u find the time to argue with us Khmers about the history of ladyboy thailand? shows how much of a looser you are to reply to all the posts that provoke your stupid ass. like i said. EM-FUCKING-BARRASSING. hahha dumb cunt. say what u want, but at the end of the day, u'll always be a useless cunt commenting on youtube videos behind ur computer screen.

[KensaiZen]

1. Thai = Tai have 4000 years of history. To say that they didn't have a martial arts before they reached SEA is quite silly.

2. The Thai that came from Siam are descendants of nokor dvaravati sri ayuthaya, the combination of Mon, Lavo and Tai. Most of the Land that Thailand is on now did not originally belong to Angkor. Austro-Tai people. Their culture is also indiansed and resembles khmer culture but predates the era in which Angkor held this territory.

[bhdproduction2007]

Put chey kosal, vorn viva, bird kham and others who at least have experience. Although I give props to these khmer fighters who have no experience at all except practicing the art but never really using it in a fight. Good Job, I know they will grow to become better. It takes time. Having experience makes a better fighter.

[k1ckboxer]

the surface is horribly slippery that they are competing on.

[KensaiZen]

well lets get back on track to the original debate. People who understand a fighting art that was created during times of war have no wrestling or as some will put it ground grappling. You say that bokatau has extensive ground work. So how can this be an ancient art that was used for war? In war, if you go down, you die. simple as.

Oh and well done for descrediting all academic works on the basis that they never wen't out into the field lol whatever man. ego much?

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen "ego much" I don't understand this question. There is no historical precedent to support your claim that arts designed for combat don't have ground fighting or wrestling. Are you claiming to be an academic? If so, you seem to lack very basic understanding of the region and the martial arts. Once again, please direct me to paper or articles you have published on the subject. and once and finally, I stand by this statement, "I did it. You didn't." There is not much more to discus.

[lococavasa]

@brooklynmonk1 That is one thing i can agree with 100 percent. It is prepostorous for one to assume that arts desighned for servival have no ground fighting. True the precentage don't but 1 most understand that inless you can master every traditional style you don't have a leg to stand on assuming that there is no grappling in tradational arts. I for one know that is not true ive trained in a trational art that has ground fighting and for the note no i am not refering to san soo.

[brooklynmonk1]

@brooklynmonk1Military applications: Systema, karva maga, and even sambo are taught to special forces troops, and they all include ground fighting. The US Army military martial arts program and the marine corps martial arts programs both include ground fighting. So, this leads to the next question, in addition to not having any experience training or fighting in Southeast Asia, is it also safe to assume that you have never been in the military? What academic research have you done exactly?

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 systema, krav maga, sambo all of these created in an era where the Gun is the primary weapon of war. none of these existed in the same era or general time period as Bokatau. Can you name a martial art with ground fighting that was created when wars were still being fought with hand weapons and consisted of tens of thousands of people per battle?

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen Which academic works, apart from mine, have you read about Lai Tai, Muay Lao, Bokator and about half the southeast Asian arts we have talked about?

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 I think we should just end it here really. I have my oppinion, you have yours. Your doing a good thing for the khmers and I respect your work :) hell I actually think I will buy your books and support your cause. Anyone who has actually gone and helped my pinong deserves some credit :)

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen But much of this discussion is not opinion. you said military martial arts don't have ground fighting. they do. you said you did academic research on lai tai, and hnted that you read in the original Tai script. You didn't. One more military martial art with ground fighting is military san da which differs from sport san da because the military version has ground fighting. You have so many factual inaccuracies in your posts. Don't kid yourself that opinion is at issue here.

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 1. i said ANCIENT military. 2. San Da isn't even 100 years old. I said name a military martial art that was around during the period where wars were fought hand to hand with hundreds and thousands of people. 3. Tai martial arts isn't just Lai Tai. There is more than 1 tribe of Tai people. I said Ive read books on Tai martial arts you just assume it has to be Lai Tai. Is Lai Tai the only Tai martial arts you have come across?

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 Muay Lao, general term used to describe all Lao martial arts. This is not only used for the ring sport that you trained in lao. This also includes Lao fon jerng, fon daab the more older and traditional Lao martial arts. Also the same can be said about The Tai side of Thai culture. Tai Lanna ie northern Thailand with its own Tai martial arts very similar to Tai Lao jerng. Jerng is the Tai word for Muay as muay is a word derived from sanskrit.

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 the Lai Tai that the Tai Shans practice is a more rigid form which seems to have taken out most of the art aspect of the jerng and focused more on the practical straight forward techniques. Can't say I blame them, times are different and things change depending on conditions. Here is a clip of the Tai Lanna sword form youtube.com/watch?v=_JBdrQ4fTr­4 and here is a clip of the Tai Lao sword form youtube.com/watch?v=jKKG0C3WLB­k&feature=related both are Tai jerng

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 As for books. I think this is where we are coming from completely different angles. I've based my research on SEA history and culture. This includes the Tai lue, Tai yai, Tai noi, Tai dam, Tai lao. I've also done research on ancient Burmese history and ancient Khmer. As you can see im not interested in the modern side of the martial arts and to name every source of information ranging from articles to books will take forever.

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen I challenge you to name a single book or article, apart from mine, which mentions Lai Tai. I also challenge you to name a single book about either bokator or bradal serey. There is no academic research to be done because nothing was written down.

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 You and I both know there are no books on both subjects. You are the only one that has brought these martial arts to light for the rest of the world. But that is exactly why There is a counter point. Because there is such a lack of information for such things. I cannot accept one single source of information especially if that source believes everything he hears and everyone he comes across.

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 History is not an exact science. people will believe what they believe until new evidence is found to prove them wrong. Bokatau, the only documentation of this are glyphs on temple walls. How then can anyone believe there are 10000 techniques when there arent even 100 glyphs? anyone can make up a martial art and credit it to something ancient that has no records. Doesn't make a difference at this point. You do what you do to help the khmers, they need it.

[KunKhmer01]

I do agree with those thinking that this "bokator" is not the genuine one. Even in Cambodia or in the khmer diaspora, people raised by the monks when young, laugh when they read or see that "bokator" means "fight with a lion" or "like a lion", etc...

I met in Historians, old "krus", khmer of the diaspora saying that "bokator" is just a discipline among the whole khmer martial arts body: youtube.com/watch?v=yZJiZgbdeo­s&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

[brooklynmonk1]

@KunKhmer01 I dont disagree with what you say about bokator, but let's be clear, there are NO WRITTEN RECORDS. Who was this old historian? and how did he have information about ancient cambodian fighting arts, since there is nothing written anywhere?

Antonio

[KunKhmer01]

@brooklynmonk1 First of all, let tell U frankly that the first information related to Traditional Khmer Martial Arts (TKMA) was the reports (Tales of Asia, …) U wrote about your travels in Asia. In other words, in a way, Should Ur modesty suffer from it, U led me & many others to TKMA. Historian(s)Mr Claude Jacques. Please don’t be that affirmative. There R many, documents, many...Ex : the Khmer dictionnary ( P. 1168-1169->Bokator def.,), french colonial administration documents, etc...

[brooklynmonk1]

@KunKhmer01 I think you might be saying something important here, but i honestly can't follow what you have written. please, and i am serious, have someone help you to rewrite this post in standard american english. i suspect you are saying there is khmer martial arts historian named claude jacques. I never claimed to have written the first article on khmer matial art. i did write the first article ever on bokator. if you have an article that predates 2004 please send me the link.

[KunKhmer01]

@brooklynmonk1 Sorry for my clumsy syntax. Claude JACQUES is Just an historian, working 4 the UNESCO.

U can try amazon for his publications or Internet 4 more information

[brooklynmonk1]

@KunKhmer01 If there are french colonial documents dealing with khmer martial arts please scan and send to me. one of my first jobs in cambodia was sight translating french documents for the cambodian government. many dealt with archeology and angkor but none even mentioned martial arts.

[GauchosTanto]

@KunKhmer01

I suppose you met every single Cambodian, and every single Cambodian who were raised by monks must also typical for all Khmer population to you to make inference that because those you met thought it was silly, it must be a new made up word, sounds funny right? Refer to Cambodian Linguist, Supreme Patriach Monk Somdach Chuon Nath's dictionary compiled in 1938, under LaBokator, or ល្បុក្កតោ.

[KunKhmer01]

@GauchosTanto Sorry, I'm not sure that I understand properly what U wrote.

Apart that, I do agree with U: To me, the dictionary wrote by the Supreme Patriach Monk Somdach CHUON NATH is the most easily accessible (last edition 1967) reference for "bokator" definition.I didn't met every single cambodian educated by monks but just some. Their translation have always been the same

[GauchosTanto]

@Kensai

You believe that there are 10,000 techniques the same way you believed that Jason had a golden fleece. It is legend and exaggeration passed down orally by story tellers - in this case, older masters. Of course this isn't science at all. So I too know that oral stories are exaggeration, but to say that Bokato has completely been extinct requires as much fantasy as to say Angkor was only rediscover in the 19th century by Henri Mahout, when we know there hadbeen communityofmonks livingther

[KensaiZen]

@GauchosTanto quite the opposite. I do not believe bokator to have 10,000 techniques and completely agree that it is an exaggeration. I don't believe bokator is an extinct martial arts... I believe that its not the martial arts that san kim saen is teaching. The whole story around his version of bokator seems entirely bogus. Even dissmissed by the monks that know the art lol kbach kun khmer (boran)

[GauchosTanto]

@KensaiZen

Ah well if you put it that way, our opinions are not that far apart. I also have my reservation on Mr. San's interpretation of the art of Bokato and its nomenclature. Contrary to claims, we still have many old masters still alive, there is no need to take Mr. San for everything he say and he is not the only Khmer martial arts federation. Most of what he teaches, I assume are also the same professed by the older masters.

[GauchosTanto]

@GauchosTanto

But I would say it is to his (San's) credit and Antonio Gracefo that outsiders have now come to learn about the existence of Khmer martial arts as separate from "Muay Thai" or KickBoxing.

[KensaiZen]

@GauchosTanto well on that part I commend them. But I can't commend the part where they say Muay thai comes from Bokator. Its a slander on the Thai people and their culture and was a cheap tactic to get easy recognition seeing as Muay Thai was already known world wide.

[GauchosTanto]

@KensaiZen

You know that is a pointless debate that is going to go nowhere. Why not just ignore it and consider the facts. 1) Cambodians have been practicing boxing, wrestling, and grappling for as long as their temple stands. 2) Thais likewise have been practicing boxing for as long as their nation came to be known by westerners. 3) Conclude that the sport of boxing is a shared cultural heritage, where it develops and who has the most influence in its art.

[GauchosTanto]

@Continue #3

Should be a point left for the extremist to fight over. I don't want to add insult or anything, but a little history, Khmer live in Thailand for centuries, even millions remain able to speak Khmer, but there are no millions of Thai living in Cambodia, which I would think make it dishonest to deny Khmer contribution to Thai identity and false almost as slanderous to say all Cambodia are from Thai, rather than Angkor.

[brooklynmonk1]

@GauchosTanto you are 100% correct here. it is such a ridiculous argument about which came first. it is true, however, that cmabodia has wrestling and bokator and thailand doesnt.

[brooklynmonk1]

@GauchosTanto I have interviewed every master who is still alive;. when you say many, do you mean less than ten? Because that is the number. i could rattle off all of the names right now.

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 many does not have to be a large number. 10 is plenty.

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen Ok so we are both in agreement that the number is 10 or less. And I have interviewed and trained with all of them and you havent. so once again, what is your point? What information do you have that i don't.

[GauchosTanto]

@brooklynmonk1

Have you interview Grandpa Kom? His video is on youtube entitled "Interview de Lok ta Kom, combattant ancestral de Kun boran khmer représentant son village." He lives in a shack, doesn't have a t.v and is over 80 years old. Could care less if you give him a wallet full of dollars or a cup of tea. "You must listen carefully, I show you this so you can learn." Those were his words. He is also a boxer. A well-round man, in both tradition and sport art. Please interview him.

[brooklynmonk1]

@GauchosTanto Tell me how to find him and tell me his actual name.

[GauchosTanto]

@brooklynmonk1

Knowing full name do you no good in rural Cambodia, we don't have phone books and often go by colloquially reference, people go by their first name and stage name or nickname that everyone knows you by. Search for him in Kampong Thom, ask around for Ta Kom, the traditional boxer. Finding old master is not easy, but I think the reward of speaking to a living history is something you'll get only once in a lifetime opportunity for. Wish you the best in your search.

[brooklynmonk1]

@GauchosTanto ye i know that cambodia doesnt hav e phone books i have been living there on and off for years. i need to know his name so i can ask people about him. i am not driving to kompong thom with the vague notion of looking for someone whose name i dont know.

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 oh and being Tai also helps considerably when trying to get information from your own people :) so does does being able to read it. Perhaps you should do an episode on Lanna martial arts or muay kai yaa or at least something with a little more historical basis :) Bokatau was nice but the legitimacy of san kim seans version is too much in question.

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen So you read a book about Lai Tai in Shan language? That is a lie. If it is not a lie, then send me the book, I will pay to have it translated and published so the art doesn't die out.

[brooklynmonk1]

@brooklynmonk1 This is pertinent to your comment on my other video, but tell me again the names of the silat styles or masters in malaysia who grapple and explain how the fact that i studied Bokator some how disqualifies me from evaluating the silat that i practice in malaysia, particularly my statement that they dont grapple.

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen I still need to know the title of the lai tai book you read in shan language. to my knwoledge there are none. so, since you seem to have found one, send me a PDF, i will get it translated and published, to help benefit the world shan community.

That is, of course, if you actually read a book about lai tai (or anything else) written in shan.

Antonio

[KensaiZen]

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason, then accept it"

Buddha

[GauchosTanto]

@KensaiZen

Warriors should be well versed in all tactics, weapons or unarmed. Your statement is incorrect as Cambodia is not the only nation to include wrestling in its warrior training arsenal nor is it the first. You should read up on Greco and Roman wrestling - these are skills that ancient warriors possess in many ancient warring cultures.

[KensaiZen]

@GauchosTanto I think you need to research what Greco Roman wrestling is lol its quite a recent invention :)

[GauchosTanto]

@KensaiZen

Sure, as you like to point out, the modern "Greco-Roman" wrestling is a modern invention, but where do you think it get's inspirations? Those names should give you some clues about its ancient roots. Wrestling in Greece and Roman is as old as religion of modern man itself - if not older.

[KensaiZen]

@GauchosTanto

Grecian wrestling = olympic sport

Roman wrestling = borrowed from the greeks but made it less brutal

[khmerkk]

Brooklynmonk1 you have one hell of a job. Its said that any man that do what he loves, never work a day in his life, and it looks like you love what you are doing.

[TheAsianAndDude]

Why is the ground so slippery?

[brooklynmonk1]

@TheAsianAndDude It rained

[KensaiZen]

Real fighting = there are no rules. No ref to break up if they tangle too much. no stopping to recover if you get kicked in the balls, no sportsmanship, if your injured your not going to stop neither is your opponent, your fighting for your life. usually happens with more then one opponent, do I really need to go on?

Sport fighting = isn't the above

Sport fighters fight to win. Real fighters fight for survival. Completely different mentality which gives birth to completely different martial arts

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen How many of these real fights have you done exactly? How many people have you kicked in the balls or killed with your bare hands. and where can we get statistic on the efficacy of various martial arts in these types of competitions?

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 lets just say there have been a fare few in my younger years. Im sure you haven't had to fight for your life before so I doubt you will understand what Im trying to convey. To have a proper proper scientific analysis of the result would be too complicated considering all the variables that come into play when trying to compare martial arts, origin, practioners etc lets just say in a time when guns werent invented. people needed to be skilled to win war.

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen Why are you sure I have never had to fight for my life? I am a military veteran and served as a volunteer with the army in the war in Burma.

[iexcalibui2]

a real fight happens in the street, no notices no tickets nothing. Go to a bar I guess??

I'm not discrediting sport fighters or anything. I have no doubt Manny Pacquiao would beat me down easily. Differences to me lie in the mentality. Sport fighting you're there to fight. In self defense you aren't exactly going to the bar looking to fight.

I'm not saying the khmers would've won, I'm saying that just because you don't train like sport fighters doesnt mean you can't fight

[brooklynmonk1]

@iexcalibui2 Yeah your right under the circumstances you just described a Tai Chi guy could clearly beat a Lumpini muay Thai champion or, a journeyman heavy weight boxer would stand no chance against Tae Kwan Do.

[iexcalibui2]

@brooklynmonk1 clearly didnt say any of that

[iexcalibui2]

just curious...what was that dancing thing the french fighter was doing right before he engaged??

also I think that even though people don't train rounds it doesnt mean they can't fight. sport fighting and real fighting, though extremely similar are different.

great video!

[brooklynmonk1]

@iexcalibui2 The dancing is part of bokator. where are these real fights taking place that everyone tells me about? There is ring fighting, you can see it. there are videos, it's on tv, you can buy tickets and watch it. there are rankings and statistics. ring fighting is real. and these guys don't train for it, so they lose. what is this "real fighting" you speak of? where does it take place? where can i buy a ticket?

[brooklynmonk1]

@iexcalibui2 Are you saying the weaker opponent, with the slower hands and less skill generally wins in a "real fight"? Or, if the French team had fought the Khmers under some other set of rules the outcome would have been different? This was already MMA, the only things you couldn't do were kick in the balls, the throat, or gauge the eyes. Sounds pretty real to me.

[KensaiZen]

Im sorry but now im even more convinced that bokator is a fake khmer creation. If according to the khmer, muay thai came from bokator, then why does khmer fighters end up like this? they look like they don't have a clue. One thing springs to mind when I watched this video. Bokator is to muay thai what wu shu is to kung fu. Ok the extremely slippery ring doesn't help but what genius thought of using it as a ring? everything just makes me go WTF?!?!?! can you explain to make me understand?

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen The slipper ring is really normal. it rained heavily that day and the ring is a kind of plastic because the guys get thrown on it. across asia grappling type mats are made of slippery plastic. but a slippery ring and losing a fight doesnt prove that the art is fake. They can't stand up to western trained fighters, but the art is real. tae kwan do, vovinam, 80% of karate styles are real but can't stand up to western fighters.

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 from what I'm seeing, being up against western fighters isn't even the case. Put them up against another Asian and they will still fight like that. And are you really telling me a supposedly 2000 year old art of war used for warfare can not stand up against some guys who have trained in sport martial arts? I didn't see any animal style in there at all. Once the punches were flying, were they actually doing bokatau? 10000 techniques to use. Where were they?

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen Most countries in Southeast Asia have no ground fighting at all. So yes, I am telling you, if you put them against other Asians they would win. Yes, i am telling you a 2,000 year old art designed for war can't stand up to sport fighters. vovinam, tae kwan do, shaolin kung fu, silat, karate (except kyokushin) are all old but dont stand a chance against a trained modern MMA fighter. I am curious, how much training or fighting did you do in Southeast Asia?

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 Unfortunately My life doesn't allow me to lead the life that yours does, so my actual hands on experience is limited, although I have been extensively researching into martial arts for many years. But I think we are looking at this form two seperate angles. My perspective is coming from a "fighting" point of view, but what I am getting from you is a "sport fighting" perspective.

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen I have fought 3 times in the last ten weeks. all of the fights are on my channel and you can check them. I am also coming from a fighting point or view, or do you feel that since you dont fight, and admittedly never have, that you somehow have a MORE valid perspective than i do?

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen The following southeast Asian countries have no ground fighting at all: Thailand, Lao, Malaysia, Indonesia, East Timor, Brunei, Singapore (no indigenous ground fighting, but now many people do MMA and BJJ), Vietnam had a wrestling art but there only a few practitioners left. Vovinam has extremely limited ground fighting and couldn't compete with bokator on the ground. lethwei fighters from Burma could kick the crap out of any other country's fighters with the bokator rules.

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 Now are you refering to ground fightng as in sport? or real fighting? I've just watched your other video on Muay Chaiya, this particular style has a lot of ground fighting. I think you've met kru praeng before. That guy is a beast!. The complete Pahuyut Thai has ground fighting. From what I know Lao style is almost identical to Shan style Lai Tai and the modern version is almost identical to Thai. Malay and indo and brunei practice Silat which has ground fighting.

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen Muay Chaiya has NO GROUD FIGHTING. None! Thailand has never had a ground fighting art. Kru Praeng was a student of Kru Ket and the junior of Kru Lek. He added modern ground fighting to Chaiya, recently. but historically it was never part of the art.the art was codified, written out, nearly a hundred years ago, and there is no ground fighting in that syllabus. He claims it's ancient but Kru Ket wrote out the art and never mentioned ground fighting.

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 I think you need to understand the difference in ground fighting and grappling.

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen You see what you just said, "what I know Lao style is almost identical to Shan style Lai Tai" I wouldnt need to caviat that sentence, since I trained in Lao and shan State. Lai Tai is chinese kung fu. there may have been an equivalent art, or possibly ling lum, in Lao, but it seems to have died out.

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 youtube.com/watch?v=CKmcO9pRIS­I Tai people call this Fon Jerng, the word jerng or in its more modern version used thorugh out Thailand "cherng" This style exists for Lanna, Shan, Lao as well as the other smaller Tai tribes. Lai Tai is what Im calling it for shan as thats probably something you would relate more easily as I doubt you have deep knowledge of Tai people and their history and culture.

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen Are you joking me? I dont have knowledge of the Tai people? I was with the Shan State Army for six months. I have published extensively about the languages and culture of the Tai people. You do realize that you are talking to Antonio Graceffo, right? Do you have any idea how deeply I have studied the origins of Tai languages and compared to modern Thai and Khmer? You already told me you have done zero field research. You really aren't qualified to have this discussion.

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 i said you have DEEP knowledge of the Tai people. Not have no knowledge. Tell me, have you ever spent time with the other Tai tribes? Shan are only 1 Tai group. And me having 0 field research means my research means nothing when its based on others who have done extensive field research? so if I were to lets say name you as my only source of information then all your research will mean nothing because it was not my own. Ok well done lol

[KensaiZen]

@KensaiZen that should be "i said you don't have DEEP knowledge of the Tai peoples". :)

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen I dont know what we are arguing at this point. i trained in lao, burma, thailand, cambodia and malaysia to complete my knowledge of the entire muay family of arts. you didnt. i have deeply studied and documented my work with those arts. you havent. i have studied extensively, in written form as well as field research, the migration of the Tai peoples from sipsong panha down to vietnam, thailand, burma, and lao. You havent.

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen "so if I were to lets say name you as my only source of information then all your research will mean nothing because it was not my own. Ok well done lol" I completely don't understand this statement. Please direct me to any books or articles you have published on the subject of the Tai peoples.

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 I have not published any books about Tai people. Does being one count? :)

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen No, being Tai isnt enough. you need to have both education and experience and much of what you are discussing in these threads hasnt been written down yet, which means experience would be the only way to know it,for example, Tai martial arts. there are no books, except parts of my books.

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen Yes I have spent significant time with other Thai people. I lived and studied in Thailand and have done research in Lao.

[brooklynmonk1]

Respond to this video... I train in malaysia and i am fighting in malaysia in september and THERE IS NO GRAPPLING, no ground fighting in silat. There is self-defense type grappling, like hopkido or aikido, but nothing where they can get on the ground and spar.

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 You just say here that there is no grappling, but then say there is a type of self defence grappling. So which is it? youtube.com/watch?v=RyBuJyNXFy­0 this shows someone taking someone down then follow up with a move to break, injure, imobilise the opponent. According to my dictionary I am right. So what do you refer to when you say grappling?

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen I fight in Malaysia and I am taking my test next month for certified silat instructor, Silat has some grappling type self-defense movements but there is no grappling in the sense of saying, "Hey, let's get on this mat and grapple," or "Oh, you study BJJ? I sudy Silat, lets grapple." They can't grapple. I dont know how else to say this, but the fact that you obviously have no experience is very frustrating to me. name two styles of silat you have used to grapple.

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 well no point of arguing anymore. Your obviously too engrossed in your "Bokator" and obviously have no clue about khmer ancient history. But then again you are a martial arts writer and not a historian. I have no experience in martial ok you win, well done :) theres no need for me to waste time on youtube anymore lol I've found all the information needed to find about Khmers and their history. Believe what you will it is your belief after all lol

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen So, you believe it is my practice of Bokator to causes me to believe that there is no grappling in Malaysian Silat? That is not even logical. without having practiced martial art you could still use your logical brain. Explain to me how my practice of Bokator has caused me to believe the wrong facts about Malaysian silat. also, stop writing LOL this is what weak people do when they themselves dont believe what they have said. if you believe it SAY it.

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 ok seems you cant read now either. lol guess your just an idiot after all. good day.

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen You didnt answer my question. which silat arts have ground fighting and which have you fought with but most important, in what way has my study of Bokator disqualified me from evaluating the silat a train in Malaysia. rather than calling me an idiot again, just answer my questions. also, please swear off the LOL, that is how uneducated teenagers write. clearly i know how to read, and in about 7 languages.

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 idiot :)

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen You are clearly brilliant.

[Khmer96pride]

@KensaiZen

Don't call him Idiot o.O

[brooklynmonk1]

Respond to this video... We are definitely coming from two different perspectives. I have been there, trained, fought, and recorded the arts, and you haven't. It's not so strange that our opinions would vary, but a reasonable person would most likely take my argument as being stronger.

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 I totally agree with you on Lethwei though. That is what these Muay thai, Muay Lao, Pradel Serey, tomoi etc used to be like. Perhaps they were limited by the bokator rules set, I dunno. Honestly I think ancient khmer boxing is something very similar to khmer wrestling. But then thats just my oppinion.

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen "ancient khmer boxing is something very similar to khmer wrestling." preposterous. In my new book i have a whole chapter about training in Khmer wrestling..actually, i am done discussing this. you haven't trained and you aren'tt going to. any information you have about bokator, lai tai, or khmer wrestling most likely came from me in the first place. and now you want to tell me I'm wrong. preposterous.

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 My source for bokatau? lok kru meas sok :) good enough? Lai tai? how about I call it Jerng Tai. This I know from my research into Tai culture, history, martial arts, people etc. Khmer wrestling I knew existed but so far your source is the only extensive one. Ive been in Thailand and done my training though I wish I could spend my time gallivanting around Asia researching into martial arts sadly peoples lives aren't the same.

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 oh and BTW punching pads, doing forms, sparing just teaches me the physical side of the martial art. Being there and doing it doesn't mean understanding it now does it :) old khmer masters all seem to think your teacher is teaching fake bokatau but then your there with him everyday listening to his words... who are they to argue the legitamacy of it all :)

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen who are these old khmer masters? I keep asking that. There are, as i have said probably 500 times, about ten of them. You realize NONE of these guys even existed in 2004. they all decided that they were the real master after the first big magazine and TV stories came out, because they thought they could make money.

[KensaiZen]

@brooklynmonk1 pretty much like san kim saen then. Suddenly appear out of no where and is a grand master of an unknown art. make sense. Ive spoken to other khmer people who practice Kbach Kun Khmer Boran. Some of them have it past down from generation to generation, Bokator is stick fighting. But anyway this art is what it is but it isn't an ancient art. end of story.

[brooklynmonk1]

@KensaiZen Tun Serey of the Bokator academy just won second place in a huge MMA tournament in Malaysia. Which place did you come in? How many Muay Thai fighters would have stood a chance?

[khmerforvaver]

cool!!!!

[BokatorNinja09]

im a little disappointed that khmer should have trained more for stamina, ground fighting as well as stand up fight itself, and the ring is very slippery making it hard for fighters to really fight, if we put kun khmer kickboxers and make them train in ground fighting then it will be a good fight, but overall the french had the advantages, because of height and ground fighting

[megaman349]

They really need to find a new surface to fight on next time. That plastic floor material seems a bit impractical.

[tdok]

What's up with that ring? Slippery! "...they train all day... but it's not the same as real fighting.." -- it urghs me every time I hear you say something like that, Antonio. Having followed your videos for a while, you seem to say that quite a bit for SE Asian fighters only. I'm just saying!!

[brooklynmonk1]

@tdok Yes, the training is not the same as real fighting. and the proof is, look at the French. they won every single bout because they train to fight. training in rounds, focus pads, bag, strategy, ring kraft...there is so much to fighting. only a handful of arts do ANY of that: Boxing, Muay Thai, Khmer boxing, san da...very few arts that actually train fighting. even kyokushin, they harden their bodies and spar constantly but I havent seen them do so much actual fighting training.

[brooklynmonk1]

@brooklynmonk1 Have you trained with Khmer bokator team and found that they do in fact train in rounds, hitting the bag, the pads, planning strategy... Did you train with them and see them doing these things?