I am aware that Scripture uses the term "impute" in texts like Romans 4, but where does the Bible use such terminology in regards to (a) Adam's guilt "imputed" to us, and (b) when the believer's sin is "imputed" to Christ?
Also, the term "impute" doesn't appear in 2 Cor 5:21. I think people need to be careful 'going beyond what is written', because if those things are not talked about in Scripture, then it's unbiblical by definition.
@analogiafidei I really appreciate the diligence to not go beyond what is written, love it!! Romans 5 the concept is clearly taught, although the word (impute) is not there. Imputation is a theological concept and truth. Remember, if we had to see an actual word in the Bible to believe it's truth, we couldn't believe the Bible itself nor the Trinity for both words are not written in the text. Again appreciate the great feedback, blessings in Christ!!
@whatisseries The word "impute" does appear in the Bible, so it is not like the analogy of saying the word "Bible" or "Trinity" doesn't appear in Scripture. Instead, the word "impute" occurs about 40 times in the NT, so there is plenty of opportunity to see how it is used and what Paul meant by it.
If a writer like Paul is going to use the term "impute" multiple times and yet never use it in regards to Adam's guilt to us or our sin to Christ, then that's a red flag to me.
@whatisseries That is a good question. Again, I think it's dangerous to go projecting an idea on a text, even if people are used to doing it. Since Paul never speaks of "imputation" in Rom 5 (or Romans in general), we should hesitate to do so as well.
It's clear Adam's sin truly affected all men spiritually and physically, but this doesn't require imputation. It seems we all share in Adam's sin in a participatory rather than imputational way (e.g a parent passing on 'bad' genes).
@analogiafidei I'm perplexed by your reluctance to call a historical Christian doctrine what it is... Imputation is a well established doctrine of grace as much as original sin, penal substitution, and justification, not a projection or insertion of an idea. Rather, it's exegesis of the text.
Again, I ask the question; what is Paul communicating to his reader?
For the sake of clarification would you please define imputation for me, it may help me understand your position?
@whatisseries Luther demonstrated that what is Biblical trumps what is merely historical.
BlueLetterBible defines Imputation as follows:
"This word deals with reality. If I reckon (logizomai) that my bank book has $25 in it, it has $25 in it. Otherwise I am deceiving myself. This word refers more to fact than supposition or opinion."
Thus Impute/Reckon (Greek Logizomai) means to form a mental conclusion about what you really see; it has nothing to do with transferring something.
I'm not certain on the second. Reason, for the whole human race to be charged with Adams sin is reality, and to have Christ's righteousness charged to a repentant believer is also a reality, for the unrighteous can't inherit the kingdom 2 Cor 5:21, 2 Cor 8:9.
Third statement, when was Christ's righteousness given to you, and what term do you use if not reckoned, charged, accounted, imputed, transferred...?
I'm not certain on the second. Reason, for the whole human race to be charged with Adams sin is reality, and to have Christ's righteousness charged to a repentant believer is also a reality, for the unrighteous can't inherit the kingdom 2 Cor 5:21, 2 Cor 8:9.
Third statement, when was Christ's righteousness given to you, and what term do you use if not reckoned, charged, accounted, imputed, transferred...?
@whatisseries I think the hang-up is how the *notion* of "reckon" is being understood. To "reckon" is simply to look at something and tell yourself what you see; you don't do anything to the object but objectively observe. To "reckon" does not refer to "charging" something 'to' another as if it was a credit-card transaction.
Depending how you define "righteousness," I would say we receive it, and *after* receiving it God simply objectively observes ("reckons") that we have it
@whatisseries Regarding: "if our sin isn't imputed to Christ and His righteousness to us, how are we cleansed of our sin?"
I don't see how 'cleansing of sin' can be done by imputation; one is 'internal' while the other is 'external'. Nor do I see where Scripture says sin is 'imputed' to Christ or why that is required rather than simply seeing Christ as a Mediator (Heb 7:25) for whenever we fall into sin and need to repent.
I am aware that Scripture uses the term "impute" in texts like Romans 4, but where does the Bible use such terminology in regards to (a) Adam's guilt "imputed" to us, and (b) when the believer's sin is "imputed" to Christ?
Also, the term "impute" doesn't appear in 2 Cor 5:21. I think people need to be careful 'going beyond what is written', because if those things are not talked about in Scripture, then it's unbiblical by definition.
analogiafidei 2 days ago
@analogiafidei I really appreciate the diligence to not go beyond what is written, love it!! Romans 5 the concept is clearly taught, although the word (impute) is not there. Imputation is a theological concept and truth. Remember, if we had to see an actual word in the Bible to believe it's truth, we couldn't believe the Bible itself nor the Trinity for both words are not written in the text. Again appreciate the great feedback, blessings in Christ!!
whatisseries 1 day ago
@whatisseries The word "impute" does appear in the Bible, so it is not like the analogy of saying the word "Bible" or "Trinity" doesn't appear in Scripture. Instead, the word "impute" occurs about 40 times in the NT, so there is plenty of opportunity to see how it is used and what Paul meant by it.
If a writer like Paul is going to use the term "impute" multiple times and yet never use it in regards to Adam's guilt to us or our sin to Christ, then that's a red flag to me.
analogiafidei 1 day ago
@analogiafidei If we cant call what's happening in Romans 5 a work of imputation of Adams sin and guilt to us then whats happening in the text?
whatisseries 1 day ago
@whatisseries That is a good question. Again, I think it's dangerous to go projecting an idea on a text, even if people are used to doing it. Since Paul never speaks of "imputation" in Rom 5 (or Romans in general), we should hesitate to do so as well.
It's clear Adam's sin truly affected all men spiritually and physically, but this doesn't require imputation. It seems we all share in Adam's sin in a participatory rather than imputational way (e.g a parent passing on 'bad' genes).
analogiafidei 1 day ago
@analogiafidei I'm perplexed by your reluctance to call a historical Christian doctrine what it is... Imputation is a well established doctrine of grace as much as original sin, penal substitution, and justification, not a projection or insertion of an idea. Rather, it's exegesis of the text.
Again, I ask the question; what is Paul communicating to his reader?
For the sake of clarification would you please define imputation for me, it may help me understand your position?
whatisseries 12 hours ago
@whatisseries Luther demonstrated that what is Biblical trumps what is merely historical.
BlueLetterBible defines Imputation as follows:
"This word deals with reality. If I reckon (logizomai) that my bank book has $25 in it, it has $25 in it. Otherwise I am deceiving myself. This word refers more to fact than supposition or opinion."
Thus Impute/Reckon (Greek Logizomai) means to form a mental conclusion about what you really see; it has nothing to do with transferring something.
analogiafidei 10 hours ago
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@whatisseries Consider some examples that use logizomai:
Rom 3:28 We conclude [logizomai] that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 6:11 Reckon [logizomai] ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God
Rom 8:18 For I reckon [logizomai] that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed
Note that in each case what is "reckoned" corresponds to the actual status of the object.
analogiafidei 10 hours ago
@analogiafidei agree with the first statement.
I'm not certain on the second. Reason, for the whole human race to be charged with Adams sin is reality, and to have Christ's righteousness charged to a repentant believer is also a reality, for the unrighteous can't inherit the kingdom 2 Cor 5:21, 2 Cor 8:9.
Third statement, when was Christ's righteousness given to you, and what term do you use if not reckoned, charged, accounted, imputed, transferred...?
whatisseries 9 hours ago
@analogiafidei agree with the first statement.
I'm not certain on the second. Reason, for the whole human race to be charged with Adams sin is reality, and to have Christ's righteousness charged to a repentant believer is also a reality, for the unrighteous can't inherit the kingdom 2 Cor 5:21, 2 Cor 8:9.
Third statement, when was Christ's righteousness given to you, and what term do you use if not reckoned, charged, accounted, imputed, transferred...?
whatisseries 9 hours ago
@whatisseries I think the hang-up is how the *notion* of "reckon" is being understood. To "reckon" is simply to look at something and tell yourself what you see; you don't do anything to the object but objectively observe. To "reckon" does not refer to "charging" something 'to' another as if it was a credit-card transaction.
Depending how you define "righteousness," I would say we receive it, and *after* receiving it God simply objectively observes ("reckons") that we have it
analogiafidei 8 hours ago
Comment removed
analogiafidei 10 hours ago
@analogiafidei and if our sin isn't imputed to Christ and His righteousness to us, how are we cleansed of our sin?
whatisseries 1 day ago
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@whatisseries Regarding: "if our sin isn't imputed to Christ and His righteousness to us, how are we cleansed of our sin?"
I don't see how 'cleansing of sin' can be done by imputation; one is 'internal' while the other is 'external'. Nor do I see where Scripture says sin is 'imputed' to Christ or why that is required rather than simply seeing Christ as a Mediator (Heb 7:25) for whenever we fall into sin and need to repent.
analogiafidei 1 day ago
@analogiafidei Romans 5:12-21, hope you enjoy our series and even more so I hope your enjoying grace.
Blessings, again
whatisseries 1 day ago