False DMCAing is dead. Network of Trust. 4 of 4

[mrquiet2009]

mirrored and favorited

[mrquiet2009]

I just viewed this video and while I realize I am coming a little late to this issue, I would like to volunteer my services. There have been too many videos from channels that I enjoy watching that have had false DCMA claims filed against them simply because the person disagreed with what they were saying. This has got to stop. If you don't agree with what the person has to say, then feel free to comment on the video or simply avoid watching the video completely

[rozeboosje]

@mrquiet2009 Thanks. You WILL get your docs dropped - just look at what happened to FelidaTheGeek

[mrquiet2009]

@rozeboosje I'm willing to do that. If that's what it takes to stop this nonsense.

[LokiFreign]

Logic -and- courage. You ask for logic -and- courage. Jeez. SIGH! oooooh alllllright.

[rozeboosje]

@LokiFreign :-)

[Katfellow]

This is a brilliant idea. How do I take part?

[rozeboosje]

@Katfellow Whatever way you like. I'll add you to the list anyway, so that's a start, but if you see someone being DMCAed and you want to help, just contact them and tell them you want to help them. If necessary point them to this vid for clarification.

[TheVodkaHaze]

I would join the Network of Trust, though I am not sure if I would be allowed to by my parents.

[rozeboosje]

@TheVodkaHaze You can still help even if only by keeping an eye out for people who are affected by false DMCAs and by making them aware of this initiative.

[TogetherForPeace]

someone pointed me to this page after posting up my recent video. I appreciate the thoughtfulness you placed into this. Thanks for sharing.

[rozeboosje]

@TogetherForPeace Cheers.

[rozeboosje]

@TogetherForPeace Don't feel afraid to ask for help.

[TogetherForPeace]

@rozeboosje thanks Pino for the emails and the time you've placed into dealing with these matters. March 19th I filed the counter-notification using a PO Box. I had asked a friend to file for me but I changed my mind as I was concerned about them giving out their info. Getting a PO Box seemed to be the most reasonable thing in this situation.

[rozeboosje]

@TogetherForPeace Yes, you would need to ask a friend who is not in the least perturbed by handing over their address. I know of one case, for example, where the friend in question actually was a lawyer. Another person who offered to participate in the Network lives on an army barracks.

(more)

[rozeboosje]

I investigated the option of using a PO Box; I even phoned a California lawyer about it and they told me that PO Boxes are not usually accepted as legal addresses. That's why I didn't try that route, but let me know if it worked. If it's good enough for YouTube it's good enough for us.

[TogetherForPeace]

@rozeboosje YouTube accepted the po box which I wasn't sure about either since the counter-notification form says 'street address.'

[rozeboosje]

@TogetherForPeace Wow! That is excellent news.

[rozeboosje]

Not a problem. All you need to do is declare that it is so, and the other person to concur. All verbally. You don't even need to hand over control to your channel or a password or anything. If you and somebody else agree that you jointly own your channel, then it is so.

[OurCurlyBen]

Hmm... So let's try to play with this:

1. A troll files a false DMCA against you (using false personal information and proxy IP).

2. He joins your network of trust, and tries to "co-own" your channel.

3. He helps you. He sends a counter notice with his real personal information.

4. Here's the kicker. He co-owns your channel now, and decides that he doesn't want these videos on YouTube anymore. He files real DMCA - this time legally.

How to avoid that? Trust no one?

[rozeboosje]

Huh?

I'm not sure I'm following here. In fact, I'm sure I'm not.

[OurCurlyBen]

I'm German and my english isn't the best, but I'll try to explain.

I'm trying to say that the guy who co-owns your channel can betray you. Especially if this ring of trust is composed of people who don't know each other.

Such person can potentially force you out of YouTube. As a co-owner of your channel he can say: "this videos are partially mine, I want them off your site". He can DMCA you legally.

I hope it's clearer now.

[rozeboosje]

I see. Well, that is why it's a *network* of trust. Pick the person from the network that you DO trust. If you can't find one then, yeah. I see your difficulty there.

Having said that, I think someone would have a very hard time explaining to a judge why (s)he used the legal route to remove a video off a channel that they supposedly co-owned. ;-)

[fluffymcdeath]

Incorporate.

[rozeboosje]

How?

[fluffymcdeath]

Good question. It's been a lot of years since I've done it.

The how is usually just a case of a few hundred bucks and some paperwork. More important questions would be : what type of entity and what jurisdiction. Those are currently two questions I don't know how to answer.

[rozeboosje]

It's worth a consideration, as a corporation can legally be considered a person, and I know for sure that such legal entities ARE active here on YouTube (Channel 4, anyone?). I'm sure that if anybody filed a DMCA claim against Channel 4's channel, a counter notification would be filed by the legal entity "Channel 4" with an address at that organisation's headquarters.

[FelidaTheGeek]

Considering you are probably looking for some sort of legal entity with a limited liability, yet don't want to spend a fortune founding it, you are probably fairly well off with a Ltd. registered somewhere in the UK.

[fluffymcdeath]

Not sure about incorporating in the UK. Libel laws are pretty appalling there.

On the other hand, Iceland is looking at a new law (called IMMI) to protect whistle-blowers and investigative journalists and sources (think wikileaks) so their legal culture may be more amenable to you tubers.

[Kuba022]

Is it possible to co-own a single video (instead of a whole channel)? Also, if you invite someone to co-own your channel, do you automatically give him some rights to the content you generate?

There are assholes out there, and sooner or later some of them will try to sneak into your web of trust.

[rozeboosje]

Of course.

You DO need to be a co-owner of the channel. But don't read too much into that. As I explained, there is now a co-owner of my channel. That person has now accepted joint responsibility for the content of my channel. What he does NOT have is the password to my channel. ;-)

[Mithcoriel]

Yeah, so, what implications does it have at all that this person co-owns your channel? If I randomly said you now co-own my channel, would you?

[rozeboosje]

Well, if you and I both said it then yes.

[isegoria1]

I would propose that there be a central address in which people could use to file the counter notice and then once received it is them mailed on to the real address. Sort of like a intermediary address.

[rozeboosje]

That is akin to one of the solutions I mentioned earlier in in the vid, stating that you are happy to be "served" at a certain address. You must still provide your real name in that case. But a name is not as bad a doc-drop as your full details.

[nutsinthecoco]

actually it is a brilliant idea, the network. (great name btw )

I'm sick of this DMCA abuse, and i will ask around, also outside youtube.

Well done, keep up the good work!

[rozeboosje]

Cheers

[ytben26]

I am a free speech activist but I also value my privacy.... I generally use a PO Box for that. That address is no good for a DMCA ... or is it? I have two PO Boxes ...

[rozeboosje]

PO Boxes are not accepted as legal addresses.

[ytben26]

I am such an isolationist I never considered such an idea...

[rozeboosje]

:-)

[miraenna]

What about the epicemic of marking text comments as spam? I haven't put my face or videos up on youtube because it can become a hassle and now even restricting myself to commenting is becoming pointless. Any ideas to fix that somehow maybe?

It could be simply changed into 'marked as spam by ...' but I guess Youtube is not interested in changing anything.

[miraenna]

Otherwise keep up the good work Pino!

[rozeboosje]

Yeah. Or at least give the owner some control, just like you can switch off the comment voting.

Anyhoo. That's another day's work. One thing at a time

[oojamaflipper]

nice idea. lets see if this gives us another string to our bow in this fight. thanks for keeping up the real groundwork on this. it is surely valuable

[rozeboosje]

Cheers. Just remember: even if you declare yourself in, you are never under any obligation to help. You should judge each case on its own merit and weigh up the risk to you before committing to anything.

[SecularAstronomer]

I like the idea, Pino, but how much control over a channel would a newly added co-owner have? I ask because my only concern is that someone may volunteer to counter-file (using false information they say is correct) only to gain access to another person's account and do damage. And if the co-owners have a lot of control, what precautions could be taken against this possibility of abuse?

[rozeboosje]

In fact, my co-owner has *no* control over my channel. He doesn't know its password.

The co-ownership is merely a verbal agreement for legal purposes.

[SecularAstronomer]

Very good. Then I see no potential for abuse.

[TheLizardLass]

sort of an "I am Sparticus" thing -- I like it.

[rozeboosje]

LOL. Didn't think of it that way but now you mention it. LOL.

[shogo7g]

Will Youtube accept a post office box when someone files a counter-notice?

[rozeboosje]

No.

[lazyperfectionist1]

Maybe it might also be a good idea, if it hasn't been done already, to feature a few videos on this subject.

[rozeboosje]

Or to create a few ;-)

[lazyperfectionist1]

Well that much has already been done. But I'm talking about the videos that are featured to people when they first sign in to YT.

[onlywhenprovoked]

Legal docs contain sensitive personal information and must be protected for obvious concerns of fraud and identity theft, as well as stalking.

I use my "stage name" and a random address when I fill the counters out, and I will continue to do so.

I don't think a court would give out a perjury charge for expecting confidentiality and reasonably protecting yourself from a very unprofessional "legal" form that puts your personal info all over the world wide web.

Partners should get a PO box.

[rozeboosje]

The problem isn't the form. It's the law. IT is what demands the personal information. YouTube's form is actually quite "professional" in the sense that it sticks rigorously to the letter of the law. That the law itself appears to have been drafted by a gaggle of drooling retards can't be helped.

[onlywhenprovoked]

That's the thing though, they make no effort to check who is filing. Imagine for a moment trying to mail a letter as a legal document, not notarized, not witnessed, and no proof of ID. It would not hold up in court.

[wolfeedarkfang]

My docs were dropped 2 years ago, so most of the time i use my real info to counter claim. But if i know its someone who is too dumb to find the docs, i sometimes use false info. lol

[rozeboosje]

ROFL

Want to help others out?

[wolfeedarkfang]

Faved this so my viewers can see it.

[metalorg]

"The Network of Trust" is quite a snappy name. Reminds me of "Justice League"

[rozeboosje]

[raises fist and casts a dramatic look]

[johntheother]

I'm in.

[AbdultheImpailler]

Very interesting concept, circumstances dictate that I can't he a helper but if things change I surely will help.

I wonder if you could nominate a local magistrate as a co-owner and they file the counter-notice using their office address???

[rozeboosje]

Of course you can be a helper. If you can't put yourself forward you can point people in this direction if you see they have been targeted.

[Snackar]

I'm in :)

[rozeboosje]

Cheers

[durtygrrrl]

I'm in. I humbly suggest that the co-owners be chosen for being the opposite gender, so that the false DMCAer knows that they're not getting what they want. If it's okay to receive mail at a non-residence, even better.

[rozeboosje]

Very good idea.

[TheTruePooka]

Oh; to the person who DMCA'd me to get my personal info some time ago;

Good effort, but you Fail.

And I did it without breaking guidelines as well.

LOL!

[rozeboosje]

whaaahahaha!! Well done

[TheTruePooka]

I know many people group up with others here on YT, and get friendly with a group of individuals.

If the idea of random people getting your info makes you uncomfortable, I also suggest that people make "counter-claim support groups".

My unique circumstances make my info somewhat meaningless to a simple cyber stalker.

So I would be a last resort "depends", as I am a naturally paranoid bastard who would do well in the DOD (secrets for the sake of secrets). :)

[rozeboosje]

No worries

[madness400]

i have no problem with using my details, and i am getting pissed about this dmca crap now, so i'll think on it.

[rozeboosje]

Sure. I'll put you down as a "maybe".

Like I said, even if you tell us "you're in", there is no obligation, and you can judge any case that comes your way on its own merit.

[themadhair]

I got some videos DMCA by a Scientologist cultist. While I like the idea of protecting my identity, I would not be comfortable handing over the details of anyone in the circumstances. This might work for others, but in my case this is not something that I would be comfortable doing in this case.

Good idea though.

[rozeboosje]

Yes, it will depend a LOT on who the claimant is. If you get a claim from SONY, I don't think it's fair to ask somebody else to take the flak for you. But if you get one from, let's pick a random name, say, "Brett" and another completely random surname, say, "Keane" ... then you may find quite a few people willing to ram a counter notification up his back passage XD

[rozeboosje]

I'll be here to turn off the light

[FelidaTheGeek]

Willing to help out as well. Being a bit of an exhibitionist, I am quite fine dropping my docs when needed, so feel free to contact me.

[rozeboosje]

Thank you!

[SmoothInstigator]

Illegal actions are the only way to achieve something here on YT. The whole thing is tailormade to function like that. Just like real life. Decent people will never win because they won't stoop to the unsavory shit which comes naturaly to your average lowlife sack of shit.

[rozeboosje]

Not necessarily, but if you take the legal route, prepare to go through a lot of pain.

[SmoothInstigator]

Especially the financial kind.

[rozeboosje]

Maybe.

[bamboo4tameshigiri]

It might be helpful to open a channel that clearly lists the group of co-owned channels. Anyway, I seriously hope this works out. Something solid needs to happen.

[rozeboosje]

Yes. I will do that. The response is VERY encouraging so far.

[italianchappy]

I could counter-DMCA giving my real name, no worry of any real consequences here. However there could be "virtual" consequences. And this could happen to my external friend too. My friend in the police could be put in a fake BNP members list anyone can find with google, etc. There are many unpleasant ways to virtually annoy someone, once they know your identity. For instance defamatory web pages with your real name and address. Hence I would use fake names.

[rozeboosje]

Yes, that's true, but imagine coughlan666's name showing up on such a list. It would be immediately obvious that it was bullshit, considering how vehemently opposed he is to that organisation.

[italianchappy]

I can agree about coughlan. For him the son of a "beach" making false DMCAs could invent some other unpleasant facts. Pedophilia ? In any case, neither I, nor all the policemen and priests I know resemble Coughlan666 at all !! :))

[rozeboosje]

LOL

[christine13black]

i'm willing to help out anyone that needs it.

feel free to contact me.

it's about time smth was done about it.

thank you for your effort.

[rozeboosje]

Cheers

[sieg5]

Sign me in! send me a pm if you or anyone ever need my docs ;)

and if you could make an easy to mirror video with all this information so it could become viral it would be awesome!

[italianchappy]

Yes, sieg4. Neither I, nor you could have "real" consequences.

But what about "virtual" consequences ? What about the case you give your real name and adress and someone makes defamatory webpages or put it in embarassing (political or sexual) organizations' lists ? Nowadays everyone searches his friends' names in google, everywhere.

[sieg5]

don't care... I really don't

[italianchappy]

Ok ! Very Good ! The important thing is to be aware of it, because the decision is forever... You can pass your life saying that web page putting you in a list of pedophile who got caught in Thailandia was fake.....

[rozeboosje]

Feel free to mirror this one. Make sure that anyone who wants to join contacts me and/or CensorTubeDOTEu so I can store the list centrally.

[sieg5]

but I think that it would be better if you make a short video that people can mirror... something like

"did you got ""DMCA'd"? don't wanna drop your docs? well, you can actually have another person as a co-owner of your account and they can fill a counter-notice for you... it could be a friend, a lawyer or one of this list of users that are willing to do this for you. Wanna know more about this? PM me or visit the CensorTubeDOTEu channel"

you know, an easy to make 1 minute video... just saying

[Censeo]

If I help and get stalkers coming here... hmm... well, at least I help my city by bringing some tourists over here.

[rozeboosje]

LOL. Thanks

[Orygyn]

If I ever move out, I'd be willing to join. For now, I'll simply feature this video.

[rozeboosje]

That'll do. Thanks!

[rozeboosje]

Yup.