The throwing of chairs pre-davening - WoW Rosh Chodesh Nisan (March) 2010

[tjb70]

This Jewish man supports his sisters' holy endeavor! Those chair-throwing "Haredim" are cowards! Hashem will see your rights restored!

[bulgaar]

grote held Patz staat te oefen met stoelen gooien

[TheIkawatay]

WOW! This is a very interesting solution on how to repel women, throw chairs at them very interesting, im gonna try this to break up with them or fuckin up my sandwich... XD

[ExitOnlyEntry]

so these women are segregated from the men and yet those morons are still upset...

[perrik7]

This group of extreem women is an that want to light a fire.

They don't respect other religion and democracy.

[ExitOnlyEntry]

@perrik7 they are so extreme that they peacefully pray while weak-minded idiots throw chairs at them. They don't respect other religion? what? you don't even make sense. Democracy? you should look it up in a dictionary to see what it means...it would be the opposite of what those chair throwing pigs on the other side are following

[perrik7]

@ExitOnlyEntry those women dont respect Democracy.

they can go and pray in the Kabba

[ExitOnlyEntry]

@perrik7 r u stupid?? please give me your definition of democracy and explain how throwing chairs at a peaceful gathering fits into democracy

Women actually pray at the Kaaba. what is your point anyway?????

[perrik7]

@ExitOnlyEntry One of the basic concepts of democracy is freedom of religion.

The western wall area is a jewish church, and Jews have a seperate area in chuch for women and for man, and they must respect this.

If they dont like it, they can build their own church somewhere else.

Jewish women dont prey at the kabba, but i dont care if those women will.

[ExitOnlyEntry]

@perrik7 jewish church? what a weird way of describing it....if the Western Wall is the Jewish church what is a synagogue?

besides those women who had the chairs thrown at them were in the WOMEN'S SECTION. Men from the male section were throwing chairs at them. So please stop making excuses for violent fundamentalist male behaviour.

p.s. regarding Kaaba: keep track of what you saying as you brought it up.

[ExitOnlyEntry]

@perrik7 if those chauvinists from the male side have such issues with women praying at the Wall why don't they move somewhere else? for centuries men and women shared and prayed at the Western Wall. this chair throwing business is more a recent phenomenon that needs to be dealt with a.s.a.p

[perrik7]

@ExitOnlyEntry Thereb is a women side of the western wall, and women can pray there.

plastic chair are a great solution. war of the jews are better then all the rest.

[ExitOnlyEntry]

@perrik7 again you appear to have some issues with your intellectual capability. I will ask you again: if those women are praying in the women's section how are they wanting to light a fire (YOUR WORDS!)? stop playing dumb ok

plastic chairs are a solution to what? war of jews? huh? are you intoxicated?

[nblucas07]

@perrik7 You understand as much about the word democracy as a dog knows about being a human.

[perrik7]

@nblucas07 Maybe you dont understand, I have no problem with democracy as long as it doesnt contradict human rights.

[nblucas07]

@perrik7 So here you speak of human rights, yet you say that these women HAVE to be kept separate from the men when they pray and also that it is ok for these men to throw chairs at them. You are a walking contradiction. I understand that your views are pedantic because of your extremist ideas and Pharisaic ideology. Your views contradict human rights. YOU!

[perrik7]

@nblucas07 people who like to keep seperation must have their own places too. the western wall is one of those places. for the last 3000 years.

sorry, but democracy cant force them to mingle.

[nblucas07]

@perrik7 Actually, democracy would give those women the freedom to pray anywhere they please without having some idiotic, pharisaic men with outdated ideology accosting them. If these men believe that this is what God wants, I feel sorry for them.

[perrik7]

@nblucas07 Actually, Democracy would give this man the freedom to pray in a segregated place .

If this women think that God want them to force man to pray together, i feel sorry for them

[nblucas07]

@perrik7 What? That made very little sense. Segregation is against the core idea of democracy. If someone wants to pray alone, then go somewhere alone. If you believe you have to be at a certain building, looking at a certain statue or being around certain people, then you are far too caught up in the show you are putting on for others and less concerned with your relationship with God. You keep your extremists beliefs, the God I pray to doesn't care where or when I pray and who is present.

[ichavnairyid]

hehehe nice chairs I would have had throw them stronger! :D , so guys throw those chairs with more strenght next time! ! ;-)

[sipiripister]

Those men are COWARDS! Irrespectful! beasts! G-d bless women!!!!!!!

[zelig108]

This is just all so stupid--- like surfers fighting over a great surfing spot. The new girl gang wants a share of the same waves. Rediculous people! One side pissed off because they've had the spot for centuries. The new chicks whine, provoke, point the finger --- "oooohh they throw chairs and won't share!" Grow up people. Don't make another stupid holy war on earth!

[muppetchile]

Ass holes

[Partos89]

They deserve it, to bad it didnt hit them in the head, maybe they would have gotten a bit smarter.

[ZviJ1]

@Partos89 This person should be mightly ashamed for extolling violence and believing our God approves of it or espouses it, and his comment should be marked as spam by all visitors to this webpage.

[AmosPressley]

@Partos89

I really want to understand. Why do you feel this action was justified?

[smileynyc1]

The chair throwers should be arrested.

[defect530]

if a stupid chair was in my way i would throw it too!

[zcxvasdfqwer1234]

People who argue about religion on youtube = EPIC FAIL.

[bbproductionsLA]

why did they do that? what was that holiday about... did it end up ok i hope so

[ckalech]

Let your feelings be known by calling for an end to monthly violence against these women

Please write to-

Rabbi Shmuel Rabinowitz

Rabbi of the Holy Places

c/o the Western Wall Foundation

2 HaOmer St.

Jerusalem 97500

Please dont forget to "CC" Mayor Nir Barkat, Municupality of Jerusalem, Safra Square, Jerusalem

[seeinsbelievin]

To those who say it was the act of a single individual, I ask why have rabbis not condemned his acts? Can those rabbis who recenlty appealed for assistance for an alleged child torturer not find the time to condemn such acts?

[HAVANAGILA23]

Sigh. Discrimination is discrimination. I wish those opposed to having women at the Wall would realize that they are in essence telling them to drink at their "own" water fountains--or sit "in the back" of a bus. Or, die at the gas chamber. Yes. Non tolerant Jews need to remember that it was discrimination that killed the Jews of the holocaust--and that by repeating this discrimination they are perpetuating oppression and hatred.

[bhstone1]

"Or, die at the gas chamber." Please see Godwin's Law.

[bhstone1]

Do not judge the actions of one singular individual to be representative of an entire community. The man throwing the chairs is a nut and ought not to do such a stupid thing. Respect for one another is of paramount importance. The Women of the Wall need to respect the local custom and sensitivities and pray at an alternate location. The Western Wall is *much* longer than site most often visited. They have been offered access to the Wall in other locations but have refused out of political spite.

[samiam520]

The Women of the Wall actually are have davened at an alternative location of the Kotel (Robinson's Arch), but were assailed there as well. As to respecting the "local custom", inasmuch as the Kotel belongs to all Jews, it would be hard to argue that there is any one custom there. There is, or at least should be, room for everyone to worship Hashem, so long as one's worship does not directly interfere with the ability of others to worship as well.

[bhstone1]

Last I saw, there is a formal mechitzah at the Wall. It also comes under the purview of the Ministry of Religions, which is a formal organ of the Government of Israel. As well, the Wall has a formal Rabbi, just like a Synagogue. Thus, the local custom clearly is stated.

The Women of the Wall have access to an alternate part of the Wall. There is no "back of the bus" analogy, as it IS the Wall.

[samiam520]

True the Orthodox have co-opted the Kotel, and have established customs there that did not exist at the time of the Temple. However, the chair throwing incident (which involved more than one man)occurred when the women were waiting for the opportunity to daven on the women's side of the mechitza. Thus, they were attempting to observe the "local custom". And when the women have attempted to read Torah in the "alternate part of the Wall", they still are interrupted and yelled at.

[bhstone1]

"and have established customs there that did not exist at the time of the Temple." Please explain. Separate sections of prayer have existed since Biblical times. The Temple had a section known as the Ezrat Nashim, where the women prayed, separate from the men. Do you assert that mixed prayer is normative in Judaism? The evidence quite clearly demonstrates the opposite.

[samiam520]

It is well understood that both men and women gathered in the Ezrat Ha'Nashim, and that women prayed in other parts of the Beit Ha'Mikdash as well. The earliest recognized example of a mechitza was actually a balcony constructed for the men to stand on during the Simchat Beit Ha-Sho'evah ritual during Succot, where the women participated and the men watched. Even Hannah prayed at the Beit Ha'Mikdash, in the presence of men.

[bhstone1]

Perhaps it is well understood by you, but the mountain of evidence demonstrates that separate prayer is Biblical in nature. Channah did pray, but clearly did so in an unusual fashion that surprised those who saw her. Why else would the text describe the shock at those who saw her pray? If it was so usual and so normal then it would not have aroused any concern.

[thechrazin]

Bhstone: You should re-read Shmuel Aleph, perhaps with commentary. The reason why Eili HaKohen was taken aback by Channah's prayer was because she was praying silently alone and he mistook her for a drunk. Your implication that her prayer was unusual and surprising beacuse she was a woman praying in public is completely unsubstantiated and factually wrong.

[bhstone1]

Shmuel Alef will only elicit one reading: a women going into the synagogue to pray was an unusual thing. Certainly there were no mixed groups of men and women. The Tanach makes it clear that the men pray with the men and the women pray with the women. You need to read the book "the sanctity of the synagogue" which will help you understand the factual history of mechitzah.

[thechrazin]

Bhstone: The actual text of Shmeul Aleph 1:12-14 is, "And it came to pass, as Channah prayed long before the LORD, that Eli watched her mouth. Now Hannah, she spoke in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice could not be heard; therefore, Eli thought she had been drunken. And Eli said unto her: How long wilt thou be drunken?" Your attempt to distort the psukim is no different from Christian missionaries' attempts to find references to Jesus in Sefer Yeshayahu. It's embarasssing.

[bhstone1]

thechrazin, thank you for your completely unnecessary hyperbole and comparison of me to a Christian missionary. This will certain ingratiate me to engaging in honest debate with you. What's next- a Nazi reference?

[thechrazin]

Bhstone: Nazis have nothing to do with this (cf. Godwin's Law). Here are pertinent analogies: 1. You are blatantly misinterpreting Tanach to serve your own narrow religious agenda - just like a missionary. 2. You didn't bother addressing the actual text of Shmuel Aleph, b/c there is zero justification for your position - just like there is zero justification for throwing chairs at the Kotel. 3. Throwing chairs was a tremendous Chilul Hashem - just like your continued unreasoned defense of it.

[bhstone1]

thechrazin, clearly your grasp upon reality is lacking if you think even for a moment that I am defending a singular nutjob who throws chairs at Judaism's holiest site. Furthermore, your misrepresentation of the plain text of the Tanach in order to serve your narrow worldview (yes, other views do exist and you ought to begin accepting that) is intellectually dishonest. If you would like to return to this discussion and participate honestly then I welcome you. Otherwise, please don't.

[irieied]

but the Talmud bases how we pray until this VERY DAY on Hannah's actions. Not just how to pray, but a number of important Halakhot. So whether Eli found it odd or not, the Rabbis understood her style of prayer to be the will of God.

[Leoniela]

And so long as they leave the womens side a few yards. What used to be spiritual and meaningful for me - praying at the Kotel, is now so loaded with frustration with the small amount of room left for women as the mechitza (separating wall) is pushed more and more over and the pushy beggers (it's big business there) who by law should be a certain distance from the Wall. The space is a male domination issue or they'd insert a mechitza on wheels to accomodate large numbers on either side realtime

[sipiripister]

@bhstone1 Alternate location? Then tell all those macho haredi to pray at your house because us, the daughters of Israel, we want to pray at the Kotel, and we need equal space.

[bhstone1]

@sipiripister Posting on Yom Tov. That will really ingratiate you to those of us who are on the liberal side of Orthodoxy.

[sipiripister]

@bhstone1 1) You don't know where in the world I am, your time my not be my time, get out of the bubble 2) I don't need your approval, thank you 3) You're still a Jew, I wish you the best, my you have only good things

[jonnynewburgh]

maybe if you respected their customs, they would start accepting you as legitimate partners in creating a society of ahavat chinam.

[spin0za1]

@jonnynewburgh The Kotel does not belong to the Chareidim. It is not even a synagogue that they have any halachic ground on which to stand on insisting on a mechitza. It is no more incumbent on liberal Jews to respect the customs of the Chareidim than it is on them to respect ours. The Kotel belongs to all of us and we do no harm to them by worshipping HaShem kehalacha. Unlike throwing chairs, davenning is neither disrespectful nor violent.

[bhstone1]

Correction, the Wall is a Synagogue and has a formal Rabbi. Any claim to the contrary is incorrect.

[jonnynewburgh]

@spin0za1 the sad part is it does belong to them. after the 6 day war, the orthodox were given a sort of rule over the wall; it's sort of like a giant and super important orthodox synagogue. and i certainly wouldn't want to piss them off at home, just like i wouldn't want to go to your synagogue and do the same. historic and "religious rights" do not mean much in this situation; it only creates an argument.

[samiam520]

strangely, jonnynewburgh, the same could be said in reverse. If the Chareidim would start respecting the customs of others, including women who wish to daven at the Kotel, all Jews could become legitimate partners in creating a society of true ahavat chinam.

[jonnynewburgh]

@samiam520 but the best part is that the chareidim are not trying to change anything; you are. so, respect that. you are trying to force change on them, and you are expecting them to do something about it. doesn't sound fair to me, does it?

[Rysaa]

Disgusting! The Haredi are an embarrassment to us. When are they going to realize that this is not the way to get their point across?

[gamineglass]

They don't have a point. They are acting out of misogyny, plain and simple.

[bhstone1]

It was one singular man who did this, not the hundreds of Chareidim who were present at that moment. Please do not made assumptions like this.

[thelatinsymbolics]

WOW.... That's embarrassing....that fellow Jews would do that....

Thank you for posting this

[demigcmike]

I believe chair throwing is actually the reason the second temple was destroyed....

[jonahrank]

Throwing chairs is not תורה, עבודה, or גמילות חסדים.