Counter Protesting the Israel Haters at the Hyatt Hotel

[steute2011]

How does anti-occupation, anti-illegal settlements and anti-human rights violations equal anti-Israel or Israel hater?

[democast]

@steute2011 Because your criticism isn't directed at the root-cause of the circumstances of Palestinian society - who are actually responsible for the situation - the intransigent governments of Gaza and the West Bank.

[steute2011]

@democast Are you saying that the Palestinian society is responsible for their own occupation, the bulldozing of their homes and oppression, etc? If so, that's absurd. If you are saying that their should be protests against Hamas's actions, I completely agree. The only thing I would add, is that Hamas is not a first world democratic country like Israel. Therefore I believe the world holds Israel to a higher standard of conduct.

[nopecharliesnoangel]

@steute2011

Why when Jordan occupied West Bank & Egypt Gaza it wasn't occupied only when Israel fought & won a war its occupied?

Less that 10% of West Bank is 'occupied.' Read UN resolution 242 the land is disputed

After enduring years of missiles thousands of missile it left Gaza Judenfrei only to receive a 400% increase in missile attacks.

The Arabs have been offered land for peace, they refuse and launch terror attacks.

Olmert offered land equaling 100% of West Bank - Abbas refused!

[steute2011]

@nopecharliesnoangel When Jordan occupied the West Bank and Egypt Gaza, they were considered such by all but one or two nations. You do make a very good point. If I had to guess, I would probably say that it had to do with the fact that they were Arab states and that the indigenous population was given Jordanian citizenship in the West Bank, did not transfer their civilian populations to those areas (illegal settlements), bulldoze Palestinian homes, checkpoints, etc.

[nopecharliesnoangel]

@steute2011

So when Arabs occupy another piece of land its not occupation when Israel fights and wins a war that Arabs provoke the land suddenly becomes 'occupied' despite the wording of UN resolution 242. Since when are Jews not indigenous to the land and when did the majority of Arabs from surrounding areas suddenly become indigenous. Don't 'guess' research. Jordan regularly strips Arabs of citizenship. Other Arab states do not give the Palestinian people full rights, equality under the law.

[steute2011]

@nopecharliesnoangel I clearly agreed that those territories were in fact occupied by Jordan and Egypt, as they are now by Israel. I don't know why you continue to insist that Res.242 says otherwise? I also never said Jews were not indigenous to the land, but rather referred to the indigenous Arab population. To suggest that most Arab Palestinians are from surrounding countries, but Jews from Russia, Europe and even the US are indigenous to the West Bank is laughable at best

[nopecharliesnoangel]

@steute2011

The censuses prove there were few Palestinian Arabs during the Ottomans & British rule, most Arabs came from the surrounding areas for economic opportunities. The others were mostly Bedouin. About 40% of Israeli-Jews are of Arab ancestry. Ashkenazim, Mizrachi and Sephardim are genetically Semitic not European, laugh and prove all the recent studies and peer review. Jews not Arabs were there first maintaining a connection and continuous presence for 3500 years not Arabs.

[steute2011]

@nopecharliesnoangel It really doesn't matter who stated the war, even though it was Israel that struck first with the surprise attack on Egypt in 1967, which is illegal under international law. Preemptive war is only legal and defensive when authorized by the UNSC. As you might say...Read the Charter, don't guess! Also Israel does not grant Palestinians equal rights under the law in the West Bank...Quite the opposite.

[nopecharliesnoangel]

@steute2011

Wrong. Egypt massed approximately 100,000 of its 160,000 troops in the Sinai, including all of its seven divisions. Read UN Charter Article 51. International law makes a clear distinction between defensive wars and wars of aggression. All of Israel's wars with its Arab neighbors were in self-defense.

All Israeli citizens Jew & non-Jew are equal under the rule of law. That's no even a debatable fact. Arabs in the territories control their own people don't conflate the two.

[steute2011]

@nopecharliesnoangel "Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an ARMED ATTACK occurs against a Member of the United Nations" Notice again the capitalized words, not "perceived attack". Now I will provide you with a few quotes to follow!

[steute2011]

@nopecharliesnoangel A number of senior Israeli military and political figures have subsequently admitted that Israel was not faced with a genuine threat of attack, and instead, deliberately chose war. Yitzhak Rabin, the Israeli army chief of staff during the war, later stated: "I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent into Sinai on May 14 would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it."

[steute2011]

@nopecharliesnoangel General Mattityahu Peled, a member of Israel's general staff in 1967, opined that "the thesis according to which the danger of genocide weighed on us in June 1967, and that Israel struggled for its physical existence is only a bluff born and developed after the war."

[steute2011]

@nopecharliesnoangel Menachem Begin, not yet prime minister but a member of the Israeli cabinet, allowed that: "The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him."

[steute2011]

@nopecharliesnoangel I clearly stated Palestinians in the West Bank and said distinguished between those in Israel proper. You are clearly not being honest to suggest that that are no Arabs in Israeli controlled territories in the West Bank, who are not treated equal under the law. Just read the many human rights reports that have been generated over the years. That's not even a serious comment.

[steute2011]

@nopecharliesnoangel UN resolution 242 clearly indicates that territories acquired by war are inadmissible and that Israel was to withdraw from territories occupied during recent conflict. I do not see where that would translate to "disputed". When Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, they kept control of the land, air and sea borders, which is effectively occupation. They also increased the number of illegal settlers in the West Bank by 12,000 that same year.

[steute2011]

@nopecharliesnoangel The terror attacks by Hamas can not be justified. However it is always good to get a full picture of cause and affect. Israel has regularly launched missile attacks into Gaza, which in many cases caused civilian deaths and that in some cases was the cause of the Hamas rockets. For example, just prior to the 2009 Gaza massacre, it was Israel that broke the cease fire.

[steute2011]

@nopecharliesnoangel The fundamental problem is that Olmert continued to insist on annexing "all the major [settlement] 'blocs'", keeping 90% of Israeli settlers in place. This is an important point to understand. The settlements themselves – the actual built-up areas – take up almost no space. The problem is that Israel wants to annex, not settlements, but settlement blocs: large chunks of Palestinian territory that link settlements to each other and to Israel proper,(cont)

[nopecharliesnoangel]

@steute2011

There is always a problem in 2000 97% of all land was offered to Egyptian terrorist Arafat. He refused started an intafada killing over 1000 Israelis. Unilateral disengagement from Gaza and rocket attacks increased. Olmert offered 100% of land Abbas refused. They signed accords then break them with their statehood bid. The Arabs have 90% of West Bank look what happened in Gaza when 8000 Jews were ethnically cleansed. The same would happen in West Bank based on their track record.

[steute2011]

@nopecharliesnoangel dissecting the West Bank into de facto non-contiguous cantons, appropriating key water and agricultural resources, and cutting Palestinians off from East Jerusalem in the process (without East Jerusalem, the West Bank's economic hub, there can be no Palestinian state)

[nopecharliesnoangel]

@steute2011

There is just Jerusalem and Arabs live in Jerusalem, another lie. The Palestinians have their own water but sabotage it and except Israel to give them fuel, electricity and water, stupidly Israel does. The last time I check the Palestinian have a sea why don't they put their efforts to making it work? They receive billions, they live cap in hand begging. Arabs in the territories are not the responsibility of Israel.Tthey should behave like a people that want a state, simple.

[steute2011]

@nopecharliesnoangel Tell that to the rest of the world, who does not recognize East Jerusalem as the "united capital" of Israel, but rather occupied territory. Israel absolutely has a legal obligation under international law as the occupying power to insure the safety and well being of those under it's occupation. With regard to the Palestinian resources being exploited by Israel, just read the World Bank report on that. I wonder how you would "behave" in such situation? 

[nopecharliesnoangel]

@steute2011

I'll issue you the same challenge that Prof A Dershowitz - name a single country faced with comparable threats that behaves as ethnically and respecting the rule of law as Israel?

You seem to focus on Israel when in every regard it is better than its neighbours dispite its unique challenges. You don't scrutinize its neighbours the way to do Israel,why do you hold it to a higher standard than others?

Respect for human rights& the rule of law is not optional - one standard for all.

[steute2011]

@nopecharliesnoangel I am not aware of any country who has carried out a 44yr occupation and where there is so much historical dispute. I deplore the behavior of some of Israel's neighboring states towards it's own citizens and those who preach the destruction of Israel. I certainly do hold the Jewish people to a higher standard and I consider that a compliment. I believe that the Jewish people with all their brilliance can do better in caring for non-combatants.

[nopecharliesnoangel]

@steute2011

Read resolution 242 carefully. It is disputed territory. Using your logic: the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Falklands, Northern Ireland are occupied. When the Egyptians had Gaza and when the Jordanians had West Bank it wasn't occupied. No country faced with comparable threats respects the rule of law, human rights and ethnic like Israel. The Palestinian are 'occupying' Jewish land. They have 22 states their homeland is Jordan 80% of whom are Palestinian.

[steute2011]

@nopecharliesnoangel Which part of "Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict" don't you understand? Notice the word clearly stated OCCUPIED and not "DISPUTED". Read the 2004 ICJ opinion and again you will see that the territories are described as OCCUPIED! I believe the Palestinians would say the Jewish homeland is Europe, but I am just guessing...International law did not exist when the US annexed Mexican territory.