Alex jones warns that if we lose currency we will have to rely on the government, and with the venus project we will rely on the governmentnand the elite could easily take over eventually
@TheCaptainjuicy The government will consist of monitoring soil/nutrient content. Tell you where there is a hurricane forming or where an earthquake will happen . Where production has halted and immediately activates a contingency plan etc. An educated populous needs no control especially if conditioned in a non-competitive non-hardworking way without possession. Jacque is not going to take "normal" people and place them inside a RBE you must understand the values that enable the RBE to work.
PJ didn'tn need large funding with his Zeitgeist series and I think it was a success. It creates awareness to millions world wide. Why does this TVP movie needs money. Just like any fucking religion soliciting fucking money. Excuse my language but PJ didn't ask money. He just did what he wanted to do. End of story.
@Laprisamata If the RBE system were intended to work in the same way as the pricing mechanism, which it's not, then that question/conclusion would make sense. On the contrary, it has everything it needs to function WITHOUT prices, using what is essentially an adaptation of the capabilities approach, as explained in my video "RBE 101" and my blog. The fact that you cannot fathom or understand how that would work, does not change the fact that it can work without pricing or anything similar.
@Laprisamata you've heard of JIT production right? Basically a system that every supermarket uses to make sure it has the right amount of all goods in stock based on previous demand. We understand the EC problems, under communism bureaucrats were making arbitrary decisions about supply and demand without sufficient knowledge. Technology now does this in the background of all day to day life, with up to date stats and information. The free market thinkers of yesteryear couldn't have predicted it
Yes I have. All inventory systems currently in use are underpinned by the pricing mechanism to measure economic efficiency. I just want to know what algorithm, and method of feedback, the RBE would use to properly calculate economic efficiency.
@Laprisamata well for starters their wouldn't be 15 brands of milk or sausages etc. there would just be the best made sausages or milk we as a species could produce. The system would simply measure demand of an item based on historical demand data and shift production accordingly and instantly. If your looking for the algorithm then go talk to one of the big supermarkets and see how JIT works there. The pricing mechanism is only important in a competitive system. An RBE is not competitive
^ Actually the E-Z Video didn't really explain how to do anything it presented, it's all vague promises and no details, luckily I know how some of it's done, but if someone else comes along and isn't impressed by what seems to outsiders like a cult of promises, then maybe that's because the all important details, the raw mechanical HOW THIS IS DONE type stuff is missing.
And it's missing throughout pretty much all TVP stuff, even on stuff I know can be done.
@Laughingblades (1/3) No, but the PDF does... the one you claim you can't access/open. How convenient. I'm done playing this game with you. You ask a question / ask for information, I point you to sources 1, 2, and 3. You either look at NONE, or look at ONE, and then argue that there is not enough information... and I'm forced yet again to repeat sources 2 and 3. A normal, thinking person would say "I can't access sources 2 or 3, can you send it to my e-mail, etc..." Then after thoroughly >>
(2/3) reviewing ALL sources, would be in a position to say, "It's still vague. Can you expand on Page 3, step 2? etc." Don't get me wrong. I have NO problem whatsoever with you being unable to access a blog URL, or a PDF. The PROBLEM I have is that you CONTINUE to argue / debate the issue WITHOUT having looked at them! If your first priority was actually a genuine interest in finding answers, you would withhold judgement until AFTER you were able to successfully view everything I pointed you to.
(3/3) You wouldn't continue to run your mouth about all the difficulty you've had finding answers, and then conveniently sprinkle in the fact that you can't access a given URL or PDF. No. The PRIORITY would be "how do I access this PDF?" It's THAT simple. This is how I know you're here to spout rhetoric about "TVP not having any plans," bc you're more satisfied w/concluding, "All I see is reiterations, vague, obtuse information, etc. etc." than discussing the information you've looked at.
@TVPchallenge BTW I've been pretty nice haven't I? I mean, I left some ideas on your channel months ago wondering what you'd think of them, hoping for feedback, mulling over my own lofty strategies for world domination so to speak *grin* but you just ignored them.
@TVPchallenge And there you have it, that's been my objection this whole time, the plan so far seems to just be to recruit people then it will happen, essentially. Why are you threatening to block me for being a critic or for having web difficulties?
From where I sit TVP appears increasingly like a promise cult that's never going to get anywhere but sucking the finances out of it's members. There are all sorts of things you guys could do, but all that potential will be squandered.
Oh please, you're not fooling anyone. I am the one who should be resting my case, bc you've proven my point, not yours. Bc I admit (what I assume would be common sense) that we need "people" to execute detailed plans, you conveniently translate that to "the plan is JUST to recruit people" and suddenly every technical/tangible plan (Mongolia / Iceland) I've repeatedly mentioned in dozens of comments, over the last few hours, no longer exists?
(2/7) Plans which, up to this very moment, you continue to ignore, and THAT is why I threatened to block you; it has nothing to do w/your "web difficulties." As I said, if you were *actually* interested in the plans, we'd be discussing THOSE, in detail - not your repeated accusations that there are no plans, despite my presenting them to you. "the plan so far seems to just be to recruit people" Second, let's be very clear. Building alliances has nothing to do with "recruiting" people, so that's>
(3/7) the wrong choice of words, and just goes to show that (as I pointed out) you don't actually know what's involved in a realistic transition such as this, bc you're not involved. Recruiting people would imply that they need to join "our" organization / TZM, etc. No. The idea is to at least have enough people agreeing with this direction, so that we can make feasible plans, that - yes - involve the action and approval of other people besides *us.* (Or are you suggesting that we just start >>
(4/7) using peoples' land and resources w/out their permission? Perhaps you yourself have some land, tech, and personnel that you'd be willing to donate, so that we can get started right now? Otherwise, I'm still not sure what your point is. So let's retrace the conversation:
You: TVP doesn't have any real plans.
Me: Yes, here are the current plans for transition in Mongolia & Iceland, based on what resources and personnel they currently have on board, but without more information/support >>
(6/7) "but you're trying to get more people!" Yes. I don't understand what's so shocking and difficult to understand about that extremely simple concept. We need people in order to develop & execute plans that involve PEOPLE.
"TVP appears increasingly like a promise cult"
You're welcome to your own opinion, but it's not worth much considering it's formed out of ignorance; for the ~3 years that TZM was supporting TVP, there was absolutely ZERO fund raising, and it was discouraged for that reason.
(7/7) You make accusations of "sucking finances," with no data whatsoever to back it up. TVP's now being supported by the orgs listed on their site, and
TZM doesn't practice fund-raising.
I've spent far too much time as it is discussing this, making NO headway w/someone who doesn't even care to listen, or put in the effort to read/watch what I've sent you, so let me make this VERY, very clear: If your next comment isn't about the E-Z initiative or the pdf I sent you, don't bother commenting.
@TVPchallenge Yep, you have no tolerance for anyone who isn't automatically astounded by the vague overly verbose and seemingly intentionally obtuse material you link people to.
Step 1: Recruit more people (and their money)
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Utopia.
What is Step 2? Step 2 seems to be a bunch of obtuse nonsense and a constant run around in which you just bombard people with massive time sinks that still, ultimately, fail to impress upon us anything but vague concepts.
@Laughingblades No, I have no tolerance for people who pick & choose which parts of what comments/info they want to address, and ignore, twist, or play dumb w/the rest. Perfect example (as if there weren't enough already), you're back on "recruiting people and their $," when I just debunked both accusations. Rather than ADDRESS my rebuttals, you IGNORE them and repeat yourself. I have to hold your hand to open a pdf, and you want concise? How's this for concise? I gave you fair warning. Goodbye.
No plans to bring it about. It is a pie in the sky naive dream, not because it can't be done, but because you guys have no fking idea how to get it done. It's like you expect it to just happen.
I suspect TVP may have become a sci-cult that exists to parasitically feed upon enthusiasts. Stop waiting around for a referendum or expecting it to just spontaneously come out of a collapse.
@Laughingblades Please see Question #11 at: tvpchallenge*blogspot*com/2010/06/frequently-asked-frequently-asked*html
The "plan" to bring it about involves cooperation from a lot more than a few hundred thousand people. So unless you're suggesting we go around trying to implement it by force (without massive cooperation), I don't see how we have any other option than to wait. It would be different if we were waiting in silence, but we're building allies in/other people and organizations.
@TVPchallenge Excuse my cynicism but that that doesn't seem like much of a plan and the blog page you directed me to doesn't exist.
I'm no Jacob Spinney, I'm not defending the flawed capitalist system, but he may have had a point on this. The problem as I see it is a lack of a coherent mechanism by which to transition off of this flawed economic, the reliance on a resource based technocratic system just spontaneously emerging if you get enough people or out of some collapse.
@Laughingblades (1/3) Ok. Severe failure to communicate, so my apologies if I was unclear (althought its difficult in ~500 characters). Nowhere did I say "this is the plan," and then explain it. My comment, and my linking you to the blog has nothing whatsoever to do with plans for implementation, and more to do with the logic behind waiting an appropriate timeframe before taking certain actions. (The page exists; I'm on it now; change asterisks to periods; verify the entire URL (dashes, etc.)
(2/3) With that said, if you think that the transition plans for a new socioeconomic model can be explained, or even summarized, in the comments section, you are sorely mistaken. It would appear that, like many, you are simply unfamiliar w/all the work & planning that goes on behind the scenes. You might start with TVP's main site for the top-down approaches & projects. The list of supporting orgs includes nations on board for piloting. See the launch video at exemplarzero*org for coherent >>
(3/3) plans. Meanwhile, TZM is building alliances w/other orgs to develop projects for the more bottom-up approach (see adciv*org/post-scarcity "How do we get from here to there"). The transition requires both knowledge (and hence patience & strategy vs. panic) and self-sufficiency on a community level, as well as cooperation from the larger organized entities. Might I ask what you are doing / what groups / projects you are a part of to help facilitate the transition?
@Laughingblades You didn't even look at the sources! (The video is like 13 mins. long and it's been like 30 seconds and you've already replied.) As I said before, it CANNOT be typed out / explained in ~500 characters. I gave you a DIRECT link to a VIDEO that explains the plans for obtaining land, resources, and beginning construction. It even covers plans for financing and how that would fit into the transition. Please check out what I sent you, and then come back if you have ?'s. Thanks =)
@TVPchallenge :p If the relevant section is "How do we get from here to there?" I've already read it, or rather listened to it through Text to Speech. It could be made fare more concise, I must say, but I've read alot about TVP and sort of get the run around when I ask questions, the sources I get referenced to are often vague and don't address the specific concerns I express, and tend to make certain assumptions about the reader.
@TVPchallenge True but I see no practicable plans for transition being discussed anywhere. I mean look at what Mondragon did, an economic collapse, civil war, they grouped together around an idea of common ownership and basically started Anarcho Syndicalism and proved it could work, and if they had done things just a little differently, they could have eradicated the need for money within their community and turned their cooperative into a parasite that eventually devours it's host
@Laughingblades (Same as above. Review the sources. You're not making any sense... you keep asking for practical transition plans, I point you to them, and then before reading/watching them you comment again saying "I still don't see a plan..." O.o)
@TVPchallenge I see reiterations of information and ideas but no practicable plan for how to use that information to fulfill the goals presented by TVP :p
@Laughingblades (1/2) The 13 min. E-Z launch video covering their plans for working with Mongolia to implement the best practice solutions for new power generation, water recycling, extraction of coal, copper, and uranium, new transportation, and a new economic & business model including technology transfer - combined with the layouts on the Mongola and Iceland tabs, is in no way a "reiteration" of information, and your stating that is just further proof that you haven't even looked at it.
(2/2) I'll be honest; you seem more interested in simply stating over & over that "you see no plans," than you are in actually looking at the plans, and joining teams to help develop the plans - which is a waste of my time. You might try joining a TVP activism team to stay up-to-date on its development, or joining the Universal Solutions project for building the info/solution DB, so that we can actually organize and practice the community-based transition-to-sustainability described on adciv.
@TVPchallenge Actually I have been looking for plans, I combed through the whole FAQ with text to speech waiting for a practicable and coherent idea, but mainly I'm looking for a step by step guide or game plan to get things Moving Forward so to speak.
:p Are the Universal Solutions refined and published anywhere? Do they have detailed plans or vague concepts?
One of my big problems with technocracy was the idea of waiting around for a referendum, I've always a pragmatist.
@Laughingblades What does the FAQ have to do w/anything? I've pointed you to the launch video and documented plans for piloting in TWO different countries. You only responded to my 2nd comment (where I said you're not interested in the plans) and you ignored my first one where I actually LISTED everything you asked about regarding resource extraction & acquisition. This is a perfect example of you being LESS interested in the actual plans, and more interested in arguing about the lack of plans.
@TVPchallenge When I think of a practicable plan, I think in means of getting things done, based on where we're at now and what we would like to achieve, without relying on anything we don't have to just be there with no plan to get it, or anything to just happen that may not happen. I tend to find vague general ideas kind of unappealing, and try to cut through the obtuse speeches and straight to the details.
Anyway I seem to have missed something you said, I'll go back for a look
@TVPchallenge Mainly, if plans require access to technology that we don't have access to I'd like to see that technology and people having access to them first, so the first step would be how to get to that starting point. I see this a lot in TVP and Technocracy ideas, the starting point doesn't seem right here, right now, with what we've got.
@Laughingblades No, that is not the first step. All the technology in the world won't solve a damn thing if people aren't on board with how it is to be implemented and utilized. That's why the first step is to publicize our ideas and intentions, build *alliances* with organizations (like TVP is doing with exemplar zero) so that people who have access to the resources required to develop the piloting technology, and the land required to house it, can start building sustainable living systems.
@TVPchallenge And so it's back to just recruiting more members with little coherent strategy for how to actually move forward from there. Just how many members will be needed before TVP starts producing tangible results? This strategy of conversion will never work btw, you guys may be able to sway some people, but without tangible results it's going to be an unwinnable uphill battle by the methods I've been introduced to so far
The art of economic conquest may be worth considering
@Laughingblades She is right, this conversation is going in circles. I used to be a coordinator for TZM before i experienced the TVP/TZM doctrine, which seems to constitute NOT beeing the change, just talking about it. I mean, my chapter was PROHIBITED to work on earth-saving technologies like RepRap etc. These morally based propagandish cults has nothing to show for but a few models. They have never proven to have ANY technical solution, and refuse to share designs under commons. Forget it.
@CalyptratusTZM (1/2) Based on this comment you have made 3 things obvious: 1) You haven't bothered to look at any of the newly developed exemplar zero piloting plans & tangible technical solutions I've provided throughout this discussion that you so conveniently and biasly joined, 2) You, too, have absolutely no clue what is going on in TVP or TZM, bc they split as of April 2011, for the exact "proprietary" reasons you're describing. TZM doesn't "prohibit" anything, and is looking for more >>
(2/2) open-source applications, while TVP has strict guidelines for using their materials. (See TZM FAQ 8) Like I told LB here, you need to be a little more in-the-know before just assuming no one's doing anything. The EZ launch initiative is but one significant part of TVP's method for applying technical solutions that have already been proven. 3) You clearly have some disdain for the organization(s) regarding your prior interaction(s) and are not here to be civil, so don't bother commenting.
@Laughingblades "And so it's back to just recruiting more members..."
No, once again you are picking choosing 'parts' of my comments to respond to. I say one thing about creating awareness and joining a team, and you harp on that while conveniently ignoring EVERYTHING else I've said and pointed you to about the transitional plans and piloting - so until you acknowledge that, as I said, I'm done discussing it with you. I can only point you to the info; if you refuse to look at it, that's on you.
@Laughingblades This conversation is going in circles. You've yet to discuss the launch plans for Mongolia & Iceland, and I'm not going to keep repeating myself; I'm done. (I'm not sure how it gets any more specific than exemplarzero*org/docs/E-Z_Iceland*pdf, aside from sitting in on the meetings, or physically going over there). The wiki for the USP is in development to house the data that individuals and teams have compiled. You can either join a team and help, or point fingers and do nothing.
@TVPchallenge Ahem, circles of me not finding what I've seen so far very clear, concise, or practicable, and esentially reiterating that yes. Anyway that link you gave me (yes I did replace the * with .) returned a 404 error again :/
@Laughingblades Please do not make me block you. Are you going to read and discuss the technical solutions / transition plans for piloting in Mongolia and Iceland, or not?
If you are getting error 404, you are not verifying the URL. Try going to tvpchallenge*blogspot*com ONLY, then simply scroll down to the FAQ Blog post (although by now you've demonstrated that you are beyond considering the pure logic behind anything involving timing, so I doubt the answer will resonate with you on any level).
The bottom line is (like it or not) we're going to need a larger number of people, namely scientists, engineers, etc. volunteering to at least be on board with the idea, and willing to participate on SOME level before we can establish a concrete plan of what everyone is going to do; it's that simple. If you don't understand that simple logic, then we'll have to agree to disagree, but it seems quite obvious to me. You can't have a solid gameplan when you don't know who's playing.
@TVPchallenge I believe a significant number of scientists and engineers do support, but just cannot bring themselves to openly admit to the fact. We are dealing with a conditioned and institutionalized culture that has been raised to fear the unknown. It's a difficult paradigm to break when all that's needed is to retreat back unto the comfort of the current existing, albiet failing, system. Chief Lyons of the Iroquis calls it 'lack of vision'...and that, alas, is self-evident...
@Laughingblades (I don't know what you're talking about. Any time I've ever referenced a YouTube video, that's precisely how I've done it, by pasting the unique ID/URL. However, the exemplar zero video (which further proves you have not even gone to the site throughout this entire discussion, or you would know this) is not hosted on YouTube; it's on their website, which is why I directed you there.)
@TVPchallenge :/ This waiting for the appropriate timeframe absent of a clear plan of action in order to transition off of this corrupt and broken system does not inspire confidence :(
I love the end goal but see no practicable ideas for how to get there being discussed.
@Laughingblades (Note for the future, when I write "(1/3)" that means I have 3 comments coming, so I'm not done yet. My next two comments listed the sources for DETAILED information on TVP's transition plan(s), and before reading them you jump on the first comment. So to clarify: I said that my original comment was NOT an explanation of the plan, but an explanation of what we're waiting for (i.e. and now here are the plans...) I DID NOT say, "We have no plan, and are simply waiting...The end.")
It's not that I disagree with PJ. I didn't explain my self correctly. I've signed up to TVP and listed myself as an engineer, eager and available. So far I have not had a response. I've emailed channel 4 news in England and several other media companies as well as te U.N. I've been asking why this subject is not getting more mainstream attention. I hoped I'd get some meaningful response. How do we get people to understand? our leaders have been compromised/corrupted. "This shit's got to go" :0/
@TheNorthernsoul80 The problem that exists primarily with the current existing systems is where the majority of the wealth is established (...in America, mostly...) and what is the baseline tolerance level of the citizenry (...most ascribe 9/11 as a 'litmus test', but I won't embellish further regarding thusly...). Point being, allow just enough for survival and the citizenry will tolerate almost anything...which is also the problem: culturally-induced apathy, morals notwithstanding...
Further to that i do support Jacque Fresco's split from the Zeitgeist movement. I see his point of veiw. You need a solid, core set of basic principles for this to work. This is no time for standing on soap boxes pointing fingers and throwing opinions around. The worlds corrupt, get over it.. Mobilise and move on.
@TheNorthernsoul80 Um, I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. I lost respect for TVP after that display. Apparently you haven't listened the TeamSpeak meeting recording where PJ finally went off and aired everything out into the open. If anyone's on a soap box, pointing fingers, etc. it's Jacque & Roxanne. I agree it's time to move on, and TVP wasn't moving at all until TZM. Leaving TZM was the biggest mistake they ever made, hence PJ's been on RT a dozen times since, and TVP's MIA.
@TVPchallenge This may sound odd...and I don't profess to know the mind of Jacque Fresco, but would it be a stretch of the imagination to consider that the seperation was encouraged by Jacque to sponsor a more established research base amongst the Zeitgeist Movement? It was good to follow what Jacque had to offer, but without understanding...what good was it? Knowledge needs understood and appreciated...not regarded as directions for a 'No-Bake' Cheesecake. Thoughts?
@mdlittle5466 I'm not sure I understand the question entirely, but as it turns out there was not really much of a logical/practical reason for TVP's separation from TZM, and it was more of a hasty/stubborn decision based on their impression that TZM had "its own direction," and gave ZERO notice or opportunity for improvement. There was no mention/intention of establishing a "research base," or anything further w/TZM. They wanted to be their own entity, and in control of all financial decisions.
@TVPchallenge I guess I was trying to comprehend it from a social engineer's point of view. It's all well and good for individuals to recite knowledge acquired by another, but without sufficient understanding of said knowledge...well, that's how nukes get built. We can say a resource based economy is, logically, the best route...and can be proven, but to understand 'why' is essential towards establishing a resource based economy. You know this, I know this...most do not and that needs worked on.
Many people dedicate their entire life to things like murder and racism, and hate. So does that mean that we should give them the time to understand the reasoning they use? I think that argument for why we should learn more is not thought out well at all.
@karllegaladvice, @amzzz951 Energy; this problem has been solved, look into de palma n-machine, hutchenson's work, or even the massive reduction in energy consumption, when, buildings are designed efficiently.
Military; the need of wich would be in rapid decline when ownership has been upgraded to strategic access. The warrior instinct wil never die. America hasn't been invaded bc we are warriors on an individual level. People get abused bc we allow it.
So, yeah, that comment was pretty off-topic. Basically me admitting I'm also a human that is susceptible to having a tiny crush on girls being awesome on Youtube. ;)
Back on-topic. This is awesome. I am currently watching one of the challenges, and this guys has some valid points. I will study it more over later, as I am not closing my mind becoming a blind follower of an idea that hasn't even passed infancy. Great initiative, and really well formulated terms for the challengers.
No, for real. Not just joking. My girlfriend is like you, she thinks for herself and doesn't let propaganda throw her off her own way of thinking. Though she did not research TZM and TVP extensively like you have done, like I have done, like hundreds of thousands have done. She might one day, though. But again: More girls like you. We guys fighting for a fair system need girls that fight among us, rather than drunk sluts that only want to... k'noodle.. ;)
What are the energy alternatives proposed by "the venus project"?
There are a few viable ones besides solar power and such. Stanley meyer type technology needs to be further researched.. There are groups doing this. Why isn't the venus project involved?? or are they??
What is TVP's plan as far as a military and national defense? Throughout mankind's history civilizations have invaded other's with goals such as expanding their empire, obtaining natural resources, even spreading religion. It would be foolish to assume the entire world would buy into this concept, and without a strong national defense it is inevitable that the society would find itself under attack? What is the plan to prevent and contest this attack?
People trust me this system can work.I use to have this narrow view of people,but once I got into sales that changed.Talk to enough people and you get a sale it works great.I found this worked for every part of my life.Talk to enough girls you get a date,talk to enough people you get more friends,talk to enough people more will come to your party,etc.The point is there will always be people who will do things without any money incentive.Plus when this has to do with everyone it's easier.
*That was fun* "Who said that C.H.I.M.P.S?" (Dawn says Thank's Marc you are seriously *pardon the language but* FuCkEd Up, well what to do now Brain(Hmmm...)" *AS IF* "Who said that C.H.I.M.P.S?"
The only real issue where I'm confused with TVP is how would anything ever remain the same even for short stints of time. We want to move forward, but if we only limit scientific study and progress to that of the limit of the resources won't society being making enormous leaps forward in every branch of science every weekend? How is someone supposed to keep up with it all lol?
I guess perhaps another form of science that has to deal with how quickly humans should move forward would emerge...
FAQ-answers to questions 56 and 58 present a lot of problems,not to mention false assumptions about certain crimes and their origins.Who decides what the education is, for instance? Also, I think the RBE vs the current monetary model is a false comparison-the economy is already resource based,and having money that represents it isn't the problem,it's the fraud of the fiat debt based system that is the problem. Kudos for more localized economies-but 21st century communism isn't needed to achieve
@Strav777 (1/2) It's not "who decides," but what method do we use to arrive at the decision. The reason Jacque uses the term "relevant education" is because the education has to be relevant to sustain our standard of living on the planet; that's how we "decide." As long as that's covered, we can remain alive long enough to learn whatever else we want to.
"the economy is already resource based"
You don't understand the term "resource-based," in contrast with monetary-based. >>
(2/2) Obviously every system/economy "uses" or "allocates" resources; that is not the reason it's called a Resource Based Economy. It's called so bc 1) it's a system w/out the need for any form of exchange, debt, or servitude. And 2) it uses scientific evaluation to determine the most efficient use of resources to satisfy a need, through cooperation, and is not based on competing to satisfy detached subjective values, which is what a monetary system ultimately does.
I believe a resourced based economy is the only feasible model which has been offered recently, but I don't think Jacque and Roxanne are the one's to deliver it. They're control freaks over their ideas, and they want TZM/TVP members to pay for their movie for their own selfish purpose. In order for a RBE to flourish, we need to let go of ownership of ideas and information and share. Peter Joseph is the one who put TVP on the map through TZM. Support TZM people. P.S. >> yap, ur hot. ;)
AM WRITEING ON TABLET PLEASE EXCUSE THE CAPS. I APPRECIATE THE IDEA OF TVP AND YOUR REPRESENTATION HERE. AM ALSO A MEMEBER OF ZEITGEIST. HOWEVER, THE BIG ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM IS VERY SIMILAR TO THE ANALOGY YOU MADE OF THE OBESE JUNKIE WHERE ONE IS TREATING SYMPTOMS VERSUS THE ROOT CAUSE OF HIS PROBLEM. YOU ARE DOING JUST THAT TREATING THE SYMPTOMS NOT THE ROOT CAUSE. THE ROOT CAUSE BEING FEAR WHAT DO THEY FEAR THE MOST ADDRESS THAT AND YOU WON'T BE BEATING YOUR HEAD AGAINST THE WALL
To say that mentioning how hot of a babe you are and if you are available is not relevant would be like saying that mentioning that it's getting a bit warm is irrelevant when taking a very important test even if a fire had just started! I discovered you today and after discounting TVP with very little study of it I will now become an avid student of it before I make any irrelevant points but I just had to make this one because it is very relevant! You are a very positive asset for humanity!
@peterjol yeah i did i watch all there videos and everything. the Russians tried this model but could not keep up with the times. the flaw about this system is who will fix the roads? the point that he makes is great but more automated the system come the less money you need to get anything. the reason why things cost allot is because the banks and the government yes but to give a group of people the power to trade rescorces and let me tell you this. to this system you are a rescorce.
i might not be the smartest tool in the shed but i do know that when u give people a system like this it will never work out. and really what would you do? you wanna be a teacher? well when i can make a robot that can teach then ur out of a job then u will go to wha? sit at home all day and do nothing? if u want that then go home to ur mom and dads place and kick back and tell them, Hey working for the man is slavery so i wont work anymore! and see how long you can live. hell say anyone really!
The question is not only, is it theoretically-possible.
Even after accepting all the technological ramifications, for a social system, even after acceptance of the value-system, globally,
the question still remains:
Will that be enough to eliminate aberrant human behavior on a grand-scale, such that all currently human-operated social-mechanisms, would become obsolete?
Because if that turns out not to be the case, how will society maintain stability without them?
We need to keep in mind, that whatever technological solution we can come up with, the out-growing of the needs for law-enforcement, could only be achieved (in the way Jaque points out it will), if and only if the understanding of the socio-behavioral mechanics, set forth within the RBE's assumption-base, are in fact in-lined with contemporary, scientifically-proven reality.
And as I show in my critique, that in fact appears not to be the case...
@AinurEru (See my comments on your vid.) If I have time I will make a video response, but otherwise maybe we can discuss it live. Thanks for the input! =)
Don't get me wrong, I'm all FOR the RBE model, it's just that I'm the kind of guy who has to get the jist of stuff, right down to the core, and see if it can really work as it claims it will...
So from that perspective, I went out on the trip of researching behavioral sciences, in the context of evaluating the RBE-model's viability, given cutting-edge scientific understandings of this still-controversial issue of human-behavior and it's relation to society.
good video I have a question that i havnt read the answere.I understand that many mindless jobs will be taken care of by machines. But what about scientists, artists, teachers . Will we have jobs in the future? it seems as if no one would want to work if there is no incentive and some jobs may seem more appealing than others in this world. Will people be required to work, or go to school? So how does that work?
It would definitely work! We could have the humanitarian organizations give charity funds to progress this movement to pay off the media charges of advertisement. Get the all entities performing genocide to stop... well genocide, and more! Today, we call the first step towards this the UN. Now... lets pull Britain and America out of the equation... OOPS. There goes the system.
"Too much freedom, and we have anarchy. Not enough freedom, and we have tyrannical control. A proper balance with a little rebellion every so often means everything is going well," (Jefferson). I give you two oppositions: the Bad Egg Theory, and Reality Theory. You know what the Bad Egg Theory is, but Reality Theory says: History could not have gone any better, because if it could, it would have.
@TVPchallenge - Since when did I say anything about changing history? lol Ideas will generally move when people are willing to take action. People fail to take action because of the "my one vote will not make a difference" concept. Your first goal should be attempting to put more common, middle class citizens into government, and pushing for government refreshment. If we can accomplish that, then your ideas may will gain platform because you will have proved that we are not bound by class.
@zoomizoomzoomzam Please explain how being bound by class hasen't already been proven? Also, how will refreshing the government make any difference at all? What is needed is a comprehensive and workable arrangement of environmental and social affairs that are in strict accord with existing resources and the carrying capacity of our planet. Without available resources and advanced technology poverty, war, and corruption will prevail no matter how many new laws are passed or treaties signed.
@GHRazorBladex92 h t t p s : / / w w w s.white house.gov/petitions/!/petition/address-venus-project-and-explain-whats-stopping-us-taking-course-action/ JkBWJNZK minus the spaces
Good work TVPchallenge. You have a lot more patience than I, for refuting every tedious disingenuous little sniviling shit asking for numbers and algorithms. I'd ask for algorithms on how our current system of state capitalism is going to provide a table and a pair of shoes for every human being but even they know that can't work and merely accept wealth disparity as "a given". Unabashedly. Hey capitalism can't do it, no one can !! stop dreaming go back to sleep the american dream awaits
i have a question i was wondering if anyone can answer it? i saw a video on another channel on the Venus Project and it was talking about the writings of Alice Bailey and supossedly had similar material that led to these new world government theories, is this correct?
Beautiful woman with a mind that exudes pulchritudity. If we get the ball rolling for the venus project and RBE the result would be a world full of smart, strong and beautiful women. Enough incentive for me.
I've been looking at the venus project for two years and think it really is great but I wish more people could like it too so that we can make it happen I think all ideas this guy has came up with could really help but I'm only 11 so it brings me to my question what about kids and teen rights we'r people to so why shouldn't we have all the right and that one thing I would add to the venue project and I love the shirt
@rianevans Then you must be just 'plain' illiterate (and deaf too) since I clearly stated in the Challenge rules, NOT to do exactly what you just did, which is write a pointless 5-word comment based on nothing but your opinion, not backed up by any actual arguments, and not referring to any of the materials on The Venus Project website. *Deleted* Try again.
All you need to understand why it wouldnt work is to read- Mises, Ludwig von. (1990). Economic calculation in the Socialist Commonwealth. Its about 40 pages and it explains very clearly why central planning cannot work. Virtually any educated economist knows this and uses it to refute this kind of central planning system.
@couranga88 I've read it and watch?v=TsF4gAkuaeY. They don't explain why TVP can't work; they explain why Socialism can't work, a top-town approach, never anticipating that we could outgrow human labor & establish abundance on a global scale. To say "all you need is this book" to understand why it won't work, is like saying "all you need is this book" to know flight is impossible. Things change. Nothing in their premises refutes the NEW technological/economic possibilties outlined at Adciv*org.
@TVPchallenge No, it explains why central planning cannot work, which is the fundamental social organisation in TVP. You obviously have not read it. Central planning cannot work only because of technological/computational constraints (though it is also because of that yes). But because the information you need simply isnt there. I still invite you to read the book.
And to say that we can outgrow human labour and establish abundance using science, economics and sociology is quite a sensationalist and idealistic claim by someone who has no knowledge of either. Furthermore, no one has ever explained how EXACTLY this central planning system is supposed to work. IF there is a detailed description about it please tell me because then we can have a civilized debate. If not im outta here because its just a waste of my time. Thats why no one takes TVP seriouslyBTW
@couranga88 I said I wasn't an "expert," which does not mean I have "no knowledge" of it. The point of studying all of this was to LEARN exactly why it is possible or why not, and I have since learned why it is, and that's coming from those who ARE experts in those fields, like Joseph P Jackson. PJ explained how it would work, and how decisions would be arrived at, in Where Are We Going. Just bc the people who have their heads up Mises arse don't take it seriously, doesn't mean "no one" does.
@couranga88 (1/3) You telling my I haven't read it does not change the fact that I have. It was available for free in PDF format when I read it. You can believe what you want; I'm not going to argue with you. What YOU didn't read was the information on adciv*org, and are therefore stuck presenting a canned argument against central planning from the 1920's, rather than an argument that actually refutes exactly what we are claiming is NOW technologically AND economically possible, and why.
(2/3) The "information" that you're claiming isn't there, is communicating the productions costs to the consumer, and the consumer making decisions by taking those costs into account via pricing, thus accurately telling us what we 'should' produce. As I explained in RBE 101, not only is marginal utility based solely on the subjective values of the consumer, which is not enough information for sustainability or well-being, but also as explained in my blog at tvpchallenge*blogspot*com, even if >>
(3/3) even if people consume at a cost of "zero" to them, that does not mean we don't know what to produce. If production is based on providing the most efficient (meaning maximum productivity, minimum waste, most sustainable) goods & services (a.k.a Max-neef's "satsifiers") to meet the expressed needs/preferences of the educated population, we can continue doing so bc such efficiency has allowed us a relative state of abundance, so cycling through goods & services at "0" cost is a non-issue.
I'm very glad I found out about TVP about thirty minutes ago. It sounds very interesting and worth looking into... and you are very beautiful, intelligent, and extremely articulate btw.
I have a question, i don't know if it's been asked before, sorry if it has:
The ZM says we have to boicot the financial system, am i right? But isn't that system doomed anyway? Will not machines take jobs and hence consuming power from workers, and end the consumption cycle, breaking the economy?
If that's gonna happen, we don't need to boicot anything, unless we wanna speed up the process. Therefore world economy will colapse, no matter what we do, and the venus project will have its chance.
Of course it's better than anything we have today, far better! I just don't think it's possible, well, anything is possible, but not likely. The most powerful today will lose their power and profits, hence, lack of support... To have a peaceful revolution as it is claimed by TVP is wishful thinking.
I think its a great idea.....No contest.....The only one was who would program the central computer...but its simple a computer see's things as 1+1=2 thats whats needed to make decisions.Todays computers can do the job.
@mosaicmaster1 If its so simple, show me the equation that will compute my need for a car, based on currently available resources that are constantly shifting due to technology that may render them obsolete at any poing? I'll buy into this dumbass project the moment they show me some algorithims or equations that will handle my lfe on just a simple lissue like obtaining a car.
@theherdmentality A computer can update at any time...Oh don't worry...Its only a concept...Nor i or you will see this happen.First the economy must collapse and everything will go to crap,Humans will kill each other because they were trained for nothing...And even i,A Prepared person...May not make it.So don't concern yourself with something we may never see.I still love the concept.
@mosaicmaster1 its a dangerous concept because it takes smart people's energy away from real solutions. Any concept that needs EVERYONE ON THE PLANET on board before it reveals how it's supposed to work is stupid AND dangerous. I'm just supposed to go along with this because they say no one will have tto work and no one will be poor??? ask any computer programmer if they think allocating the needs of one's life should be handled by a computer or computers whose programmers remain anonymous.
@theherdmentality A computer doesn't care what race you are...It doesn't discriminate...People are always scared about things they don't understand,Its human...Just imagine a scared human making a life or death decision in 2 seconds....How many decisions would have been made by a computer.don't concern yourself with programers the computer will be..A.I...artificial intelligence.Remember you heard it here first...WW3 will be fought over food water and oil...Resources.
What does your calculator do? It does what you tell it to do. it gives you an answer based on your input. computers are the same. they give you answers BASED on what you input. WOuld you trust me to program a computer that is supposed to tell you what you need and how much of it you can have? Whatever the computer decided would be based simply on my input, and my input alone, which i can skew however I want. war over resources isn't anything new
@theherdmentality What do humans do they make stupid decisions on who they elect...and then those people make stupid decisions on laws that don't work.See its the same thing...Like i said its just a concept i also understand that the government we have is better than alot of governments out there...I believe everything evolves.I use my screw driver but my screwguns better.Try the screwgun...Its alot easier.
Regarding computers allocating the needs of one's life... cpu's control matters of life and death all the time. Air planes, traffic lights, bank account balances, etc. You trust them to control those, but not simply help us calculate available resources and the most optimal path to abundance? Who said anything about the programmers remaining "anonymous?" If anything, everything is completely transparent.
@TVPchallenge I don't trust computers to control anything. As i mentioned above, it's the exact oppositte. I expect computers to do exactly what I've told them to do. Why can't the project just show us the computer program they want everyone to get on board witth, hook that program up to justt a single household and show us all how that computer manages that household's needs. it's that simple.
I'm not going along with this until that part is crystal clear.
@theherdmentality Thats right...The Egypt uprise is Over Food.Russia held its wheat crop....and food spikes at a price people can't pay...Empty bellys turn Honest humans to animals...Again Resources.You live in a developed country so things are peaches and cream even with a screwed up economy.Thats not the case for undeveloped countries.
@mosaicmaster1 Basing an economy on resources is like people 500 years ago thinking that if everyone had a horse for transportation, there would be shit everywhere. THEY NEVER PREDICTED THE CAR!
One day we will have technology that will optimise resources or possibly get mroe resources from another planet, tha's why TVP doesn't make sense, and is unnecessary
@theherdmentality Now its time for me to talk to you about technology supression.In the 1800's baker elec. and other companies were making elec. cars...And then they all disapeared..Todays cars haven't changed for over 100years.And your talking about going to other planets.First try taking battery pattents from the oil companies.Everytime someone invents something that treatens the oil companies,They buy the pattent from the inventor...If the inventor does not sell...He magicaly disapears.
@teewilson333 alright then, but stefan molyneux pointed out how is it going to monitor or measure the resources
TheCaptainjuicy 3 weeks ago
They always find a way
TheCaptainjuicy 1 month ago
Alex jones warns that if we lose currency we will have to rely on the government, and with the venus project we will rely on the governmentnand the elite could easily take over eventually
TheCaptainjuicy 1 month ago
@TheCaptainjuicy The government will consist of monitoring soil/nutrient content. Tell you where there is a hurricane forming or where an earthquake will happen . Where production has halted and immediately activates a contingency plan etc. An educated populous needs no control especially if conditioned in a non-competitive non-hardworking way without possession. Jacque is not going to take "normal" people and place them inside a RBE you must understand the values that enable the RBE to work.
teewilson333 4 weeks ago
Get into politics girl.
Juefawn 1 month ago
she is an ape
KchristianX 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
PJ didn'tn need large funding with his Zeitgeist series and I think it was a success. It creates awareness to millions world wide. Why does this TVP movie needs money. Just like any fucking religion soliciting fucking money. Excuse my language but PJ didn't ask money. He just did what he wanted to do. End of story.
rocketmaniscool 1 month ago
@TVPchallenge - Simply, where is the algorithm that can effectively replace the pricing mechanism? Without this, TVP has NOTHING!!
Laprisamata 1 month ago
@Laprisamata If the RBE system were intended to work in the same way as the pricing mechanism, which it's not, then that question/conclusion would make sense. On the contrary, it has everything it needs to function WITHOUT prices, using what is essentially an adaptation of the capabilities approach, as explained in my video "RBE 101" and my blog. The fact that you cannot fathom or understand how that would work, does not change the fact that it can work without pricing or anything similar.
TVPchallenge 1 month ago 2
@TVPchallenge Prove it. Simple. Scientific method, please......
Laprisamata 4 weeks ago
@Laprisamata you've heard of JIT production right? Basically a system that every supermarket uses to make sure it has the right amount of all goods in stock based on previous demand. We understand the EC problems, under communism bureaucrats were making arbitrary decisions about supply and demand without sufficient knowledge. Technology now does this in the background of all day to day life, with up to date stats and information. The free market thinkers of yesteryear couldn't have predicted it
flyattic 1 month ago
Yes I have. All inventory systems currently in use are underpinned by the pricing mechanism to measure economic efficiency. I just want to know what algorithm, and method of feedback, the RBE would use to properly calculate economic efficiency.
Laprisamata 4 weeks ago
@Laprisamata well for starters their wouldn't be 15 brands of milk or sausages etc. there would just be the best made sausages or milk we as a species could produce. The system would simply measure demand of an item based on historical demand data and shift production accordingly and instantly. If your looking for the algorithm then go talk to one of the big supermarkets and see how JIT works there. The pricing mechanism is only important in a competitive system. An RBE is not competitive
flyattic 4 weeks ago
@Laprisamata watch?v=NtEK1-zjdME 1.15-1.35 Explain the prototype for your exact methodology. This is the algorithm I'm looking for.
Laprisamata 4 weeks ago
^ Actually the E-Z Video didn't really explain how to do anything it presented, it's all vague promises and no details, luckily I know how some of it's done, but if someone else comes along and isn't impressed by what seems to outsiders like a cult of promises, then maybe that's because the all important details, the raw mechanical HOW THIS IS DONE type stuff is missing.
And it's missing throughout pretty much all TVP stuff, even on stuff I know can be done.
Laughingblades 1 month ago
@Laughingblades (1/3) No, but the PDF does... the one you claim you can't access/open. How convenient. I'm done playing this game with you. You ask a question / ask for information, I point you to sources 1, 2, and 3. You either look at NONE, or look at ONE, and then argue that there is not enough information... and I'm forced yet again to repeat sources 2 and 3. A normal, thinking person would say "I can't access sources 2 or 3, can you send it to my e-mail, etc..." Then after thoroughly >>
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
(2/3) reviewing ALL sources, would be in a position to say, "It's still vague. Can you expand on Page 3, step 2? etc." Don't get me wrong. I have NO problem whatsoever with you being unable to access a blog URL, or a PDF. The PROBLEM I have is that you CONTINUE to argue / debate the issue WITHOUT having looked at them! If your first priority was actually a genuine interest in finding answers, you would withhold judgement until AFTER you were able to successfully view everything I pointed you to.
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
(3/3) You wouldn't continue to run your mouth about all the difficulty you've had finding answers, and then conveniently sprinkle in the fact that you can't access a given URL or PDF. No. The PRIORITY would be "how do I access this PDF?" It's THAT simple. This is how I know you're here to spout rhetoric about "TVP not having any plans," bc you're more satisfied w/concluding, "All I see is reiterations, vague, obtuse information, etc. etc." than discussing the information you've looked at.
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
*thinks the tower is a lie, will be impressed when there are actually results*
Laughingblades 1 month ago
*spamming up comment section with obscurities :3
*obligatory random comment about your outfit, and pretty hair... gee, your cute :)
... (seriously am clueless about all this but I'm sure I'll enjoy following up a bit on it ;)
and now for:
*totally not ignorant blanket statement about how I'm so the best and everyone should like me or they just dum
:P
Leafbleeder 1 month ago
@TVPchallenge BTW I've been pretty nice haven't I? I mean, I left some ideas on your channel months ago wondering what you'd think of them, hoping for feedback, mulling over my own lofty strategies for world domination so to speak *grin* but you just ignored them.
Laughingblades 1 month ago
@TVPchallenge And there you have it, that's been my objection this whole time, the plan so far seems to just be to recruit people then it will happen, essentially. Why are you threatening to block me for being a critic or for having web difficulties?
From where I sit TVP appears increasingly like a promise cult that's never going to get anywhere but sucking the finances out of it's members. There are all sorts of things you guys could do, but all that potential will be squandered.
Laughingblades 1 month ago
@Laughingblades (1/7) "And there you have it..."
Oh please, you're not fooling anyone. I am the one who should be resting my case, bc you've proven my point, not yours. Bc I admit (what I assume would be common sense) that we need "people" to execute detailed plans, you conveniently translate that to "the plan is JUST to recruit people" and suddenly every technical/tangible plan (Mongolia / Iceland) I've repeatedly mentioned in dozens of comments, over the last few hours, no longer exists?
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
(2/7) Plans which, up to this very moment, you continue to ignore, and THAT is why I threatened to block you; it has nothing to do w/your "web difficulties." As I said, if you were *actually* interested in the plans, we'd be discussing THOSE, in detail - not your repeated accusations that there are no plans, despite my presenting them to you. "the plan so far seems to just be to recruit people" Second, let's be very clear. Building alliances has nothing to do with "recruiting" people, so that's>
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
(3/7) the wrong choice of words, and just goes to show that (as I pointed out) you don't actually know what's involved in a realistic transition such as this, bc you're not involved. Recruiting people would imply that they need to join "our" organization / TZM, etc. No. The idea is to at least have enough people agreeing with this direction, so that we can make feasible plans, that - yes - involve the action and approval of other people besides *us.* (Or are you suggesting that we just start >>
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
(4/7) using peoples' land and resources w/out their permission? Perhaps you yourself have some land, tech, and personnel that you'd be willing to donate, so that we can get started right now? Otherwise, I'm still not sure what your point is. So let's retrace the conversation:
You: TVP doesn't have any real plans.
Me: Yes, here are the current plans for transition in Mongolia & Iceland, based on what resources and personnel they currently have on board, but without more information/support >>
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
(5/7) there can be no further plans - again, common sense is an understatement here. I find this beyond obvious.
You: Ah ha, so you ARE waiting for more people to join!
Me: Yes... O_o...yes, we are. As... I've stated. But... we are also... doing what we can... in the meantime... (crickets chirping)
You: Ah ha, so you ARE waiting for people to join!
And THIS is why the conversation is going in circles.
You conveniently skip over anything I mention regarding the existing plans, and jump to >>
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
(6/7) "but you're trying to get more people!" Yes. I don't understand what's so shocking and difficult to understand about that extremely simple concept. We need people in order to develop & execute plans that involve PEOPLE.
"TVP appears increasingly like a promise cult"
You're welcome to your own opinion, but it's not worth much considering it's formed out of ignorance; for the ~3 years that TZM was supporting TVP, there was absolutely ZERO fund raising, and it was discouraged for that reason.
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
(7/7) You make accusations of "sucking finances," with no data whatsoever to back it up. TVP's now being supported by the orgs listed on their site, and
TZM doesn't practice fund-raising.
I've spent far too much time as it is discussing this, making NO headway w/someone who doesn't even care to listen, or put in the effort to read/watch what I've sent you, so let me make this VERY, very clear: If your next comment isn't about the E-Z initiative or the pdf I sent you, don't bother commenting.
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
@TVPchallenge Yep, you have no tolerance for anyone who isn't automatically astounded by the vague overly verbose and seemingly intentionally obtuse material you link people to.
Step 1: Recruit more people (and their money)
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Utopia.
What is Step 2? Step 2 seems to be a bunch of obtuse nonsense and a constant run around in which you just bombard people with massive time sinks that still, ultimately, fail to impress upon us anything but vague concepts.
Laughingblades 1 month ago
@Laughingblades No, I have no tolerance for people who pick & choose which parts of what comments/info they want to address, and ignore, twist, or play dumb w/the rest. Perfect example (as if there weren't enough already), you're back on "recruiting people and their $," when I just debunked both accusations. Rather than ADDRESS my rebuttals, you IGNORE them and repeat yourself. I have to hold your hand to open a pdf, and you want concise? How's this for concise? I gave you fair warning. Goodbye.
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
Venus project fails for one simple reason.
No plans to bring it about. It is a pie in the sky naive dream, not because it can't be done, but because you guys have no fking idea how to get it done. It's like you expect it to just happen.
I suspect TVP may have become a sci-cult that exists to parasitically feed upon enthusiasts. Stop waiting around for a referendum or expecting it to just spontaneously come out of a collapse.
Laughingblades 1 month ago
@Laughingblades Please see Question #11 at: tvpchallenge*blogspot*com/2010/06/frequently-asked-frequently-asked*html
The "plan" to bring it about involves cooperation from a lot more than a few hundred thousand people. So unless you're suggesting we go around trying to implement it by force (without massive cooperation), I don't see how we have any other option than to wait. It would be different if we were waiting in silence, but we're building allies in/other people and organizations.
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
@TVPchallenge Excuse my cynicism but that that doesn't seem like much of a plan and the blog page you directed me to doesn't exist.
I'm no Jacob Spinney, I'm not defending the flawed capitalist system, but he may have had a point on this. The problem as I see it is a lack of a coherent mechanism by which to transition off of this flawed economic, the reliance on a resource based technocratic system just spontaneously emerging if you get enough people or out of some collapse.
Laughingblades 1 month ago
@Laughingblades (1/3) Ok. Severe failure to communicate, so my apologies if I was unclear (althought its difficult in ~500 characters). Nowhere did I say "this is the plan," and then explain it. My comment, and my linking you to the blog has nothing whatsoever to do with plans for implementation, and more to do with the logic behind waiting an appropriate timeframe before taking certain actions. (The page exists; I'm on it now; change asterisks to periods; verify the entire URL (dashes, etc.)
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
(2/3) With that said, if you think that the transition plans for a new socioeconomic model can be explained, or even summarized, in the comments section, you are sorely mistaken. It would appear that, like many, you are simply unfamiliar w/all the work & planning that goes on behind the scenes. You might start with TVP's main site for the top-down approaches & projects. The list of supporting orgs includes nations on board for piloting. See the launch video at exemplarzero*org for coherent >>
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
(3/3) plans. Meanwhile, TZM is building alliances w/other orgs to develop projects for the more bottom-up approach (see adciv*org/post-scarcity "How do we get from here to there"). The transition requires both knowledge (and hence patience & strategy vs. panic) and self-sufficiency on a community level, as well as cooperation from the larger organized entities. Might I ask what you are doing / what groups / projects you are a part of to help facilitate the transition?
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
@TVPchallenge That's all good but are there any plans for how to obtain land and resources and start construction?
Laughingblades 1 month ago
@Laughingblades You didn't even look at the sources! (The video is like 13 mins. long and it's been like 30 seconds and you've already replied.) As I said before, it CANNOT be typed out / explained in ~500 characters. I gave you a DIRECT link to a VIDEO that explains the plans for obtaining land, resources, and beginning construction. It even covers plans for financing and how that would fit into the transition. Please check out what I sent you, and then come back if you have ?'s. Thanks =)
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
@TVPchallenge :p If the relevant section is "How do we get from here to there?" I've already read it, or rather listened to it through Text to Speech. It could be made fare more concise, I must say, but I've read alot about TVP and sort of get the run around when I ask questions, the sources I get referenced to are often vague and don't address the specific concerns I express, and tend to make certain assumptions about the reader.
I'm a technocratic socialist btw.
Laughingblades 1 month ago
@TVPchallenge True but I see no practicable plans for transition being discussed anywhere. I mean look at what Mondragon did, an economic collapse, civil war, they grouped together around an idea of common ownership and basically started Anarcho Syndicalism and proved it could work, and if they had done things just a little differently, they could have eradicated the need for money within their community and turned their cooperative into a parasite that eventually devours it's host
Laughingblades 1 month ago
@Laughingblades (Same as above. Review the sources. You're not making any sense... you keep asking for practical transition plans, I point you to them, and then before reading/watching them you comment again saying "I still don't see a plan..." O.o)
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
@TVPchallenge I see reiterations of information and ideas but no practicable plan for how to use that information to fulfill the goals presented by TVP :p
Laughingblades 1 month ago
@Laughingblades (1/2) The 13 min. E-Z launch video covering their plans for working with Mongolia to implement the best practice solutions for new power generation, water recycling, extraction of coal, copper, and uranium, new transportation, and a new economic & business model including technology transfer - combined with the layouts on the Mongola and Iceland tabs, is in no way a "reiteration" of information, and your stating that is just further proof that you haven't even looked at it.
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
(2/2) I'll be honest; you seem more interested in simply stating over & over that "you see no plans," than you are in actually looking at the plans, and joining teams to help develop the plans - which is a waste of my time. You might try joining a TVP activism team to stay up-to-date on its development, or joining the Universal Solutions project for building the info/solution DB, so that we can actually organize and practice the community-based transition-to-sustainability described on adciv.
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
@TVPchallenge Actually I have been looking for plans, I combed through the whole FAQ with text to speech waiting for a practicable and coherent idea, but mainly I'm looking for a step by step guide or game plan to get things Moving Forward so to speak.
:p Are the Universal Solutions refined and published anywhere? Do they have detailed plans or vague concepts?
One of my big problems with technocracy was the idea of waiting around for a referendum, I've always a pragmatist.
Laughingblades 1 month ago
@Laughingblades What does the FAQ have to do w/anything? I've pointed you to the launch video and documented plans for piloting in TWO different countries. You only responded to my 2nd comment (where I said you're not interested in the plans) and you ignored my first one where I actually LISTED everything you asked about regarding resource extraction & acquisition. This is a perfect example of you being LESS interested in the actual plans, and more interested in arguing about the lack of plans.
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
@TVPchallenge When I think of a practicable plan, I think in means of getting things done, based on where we're at now and what we would like to achieve, without relying on anything we don't have to just be there with no plan to get it, or anything to just happen that may not happen. I tend to find vague general ideas kind of unappealing, and try to cut through the obtuse speeches and straight to the details.
Anyway I seem to have missed something you said, I'll go back for a look
Laughingblades 1 month ago
@TVPchallenge Mainly, if plans require access to technology that we don't have access to I'd like to see that technology and people having access to them first, so the first step would be how to get to that starting point. I see this a lot in TVP and Technocracy ideas, the starting point doesn't seem right here, right now, with what we've got.
Laughingblades 1 month ago
@Laughingblades No, that is not the first step. All the technology in the world won't solve a damn thing if people aren't on board with how it is to be implemented and utilized. That's why the first step is to publicize our ideas and intentions, build *alliances* with organizations (like TVP is doing with exemplar zero) so that people who have access to the resources required to develop the piloting technology, and the land required to house it, can start building sustainable living systems.
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
@TVPchallenge And so it's back to just recruiting more members with little coherent strategy for how to actually move forward from there. Just how many members will be needed before TVP starts producing tangible results? This strategy of conversion will never work btw, you guys may be able to sway some people, but without tangible results it's going to be an unwinnable uphill battle by the methods I've been introduced to so far
The art of economic conquest may be worth considering
Laughingblades 1 month ago
@Laughingblades She is right, this conversation is going in circles. I used to be a coordinator for TZM before i experienced the TVP/TZM doctrine, which seems to constitute NOT beeing the change, just talking about it. I mean, my chapter was PROHIBITED to work on earth-saving technologies like RepRap etc. These morally based propagandish cults has nothing to show for but a few models. They have never proven to have ANY technical solution, and refuse to share designs under commons. Forget it.
CalyptratusTZM 1 month ago
@CalyptratusTZM (1/2) Based on this comment you have made 3 things obvious: 1) You haven't bothered to look at any of the newly developed exemplar zero piloting plans & tangible technical solutions I've provided throughout this discussion that you so conveniently and biasly joined, 2) You, too, have absolutely no clue what is going on in TVP or TZM, bc they split as of April 2011, for the exact "proprietary" reasons you're describing. TZM doesn't "prohibit" anything, and is looking for more >>
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
(2/2) open-source applications, while TVP has strict guidelines for using their materials. (See TZM FAQ 8) Like I told LB here, you need to be a little more in-the-know before just assuming no one's doing anything. The EZ launch initiative is but one significant part of TVP's method for applying technical solutions that have already been proven. 3) You clearly have some disdain for the organization(s) regarding your prior interaction(s) and are not here to be civil, so don't bother commenting.
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
@Laughingblades "And so it's back to just recruiting more members..."
No, once again you are picking choosing 'parts' of my comments to respond to. I say one thing about creating awareness and joining a team, and you harp on that while conveniently ignoring EVERYTHING else I've said and pointed you to about the transitional plans and piloting - so until you acknowledge that, as I said, I'm done discussing it with you. I can only point you to the info; if you refuse to look at it, that's on you.
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
@TVPchallenge That's all great as an end goal but you have to start bringing it about. I don't see that happening.
Laughingblades 1 month ago
@Laughingblades This conversation is going in circles. You've yet to discuss the launch plans for Mongolia & Iceland, and I'm not going to keep repeating myself; I'm done. (I'm not sure how it gets any more specific than exemplarzero*org/docs/E-Z_Iceland*pdf, aside from sitting in on the meetings, or physically going over there). The wiki for the USP is in development to house the data that individuals and teams have compiled. You can either join a team and help, or point fingers and do nothing.
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
@TVPchallenge Ahem, circles of me not finding what I've seen so far very clear, concise, or practicable, and esentially reiterating that yes. Anyway that link you gave me (yes I did replace the * with .) returned a 404 error again :/
Laughingblades 1 month ago
@Laughingblades Please do not make me block you. Are you going to read and discuss the technical solutions / transition plans for piloting in Mongolia and Iceland, or not?
If you are getting error 404, you are not verifying the URL. Try going to tvpchallenge*blogspot*com ONLY, then simply scroll down to the FAQ Blog post (although by now you've demonstrated that you are beyond considering the pure logic behind anything involving timing, so I doubt the answer will resonate with you on any level).
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
The bottom line is (like it or not) we're going to need a larger number of people, namely scientists, engineers, etc. volunteering to at least be on board with the idea, and willing to participate on SOME level before we can establish a concrete plan of what everyone is going to do; it's that simple. If you don't understand that simple logic, then we'll have to agree to disagree, but it seems quite obvious to me. You can't have a solid gameplan when you don't know who's playing.
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
@TVPchallenge I believe a significant number of scientists and engineers do support, but just cannot bring themselves to openly admit to the fact. We are dealing with a conditioned and institutionalized culture that has been raised to fear the unknown. It's a difficult paradigm to break when all that's needed is to retreat back unto the comfort of the current existing, albiet failing, system. Chief Lyons of the Iroquis calls it 'lack of vision'...and that, alas, is self-evident...
mdlittle5466 1 month ago
@TVPchallenge KK this was the one, could you umm, paste the links to videos like this from now on. Like for this one it's watch?v=xoNsOnj9K
:3
Laughingblades 1 month ago
@Laughingblades (I don't know what you're talking about. Any time I've ever referenced a YouTube video, that's precisely how I've done it, by pasting the unique ID/URL. However, the exemplar zero video (which further proves you have not even gone to the site throughout this entire discussion, or you would know this) is not hosted on YouTube; it's on their website, which is why I directed you there.)
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
@TVPchallenge :/ This waiting for the appropriate timeframe absent of a clear plan of action in order to transition off of this corrupt and broken system does not inspire confidence :(
I love the end goal but see no practicable ideas for how to get there being discussed.
Laughingblades 1 month ago
@Laughingblades (Note for the future, when I write "(1/3)" that means I have 3 comments coming, so I'm not done yet. My next two comments listed the sources for DETAILED information on TVP's transition plan(s), and before reading them you jump on the first comment. So to clarify: I said that my original comment was NOT an explanation of the plan, but an explanation of what we're waiting for (i.e. and now here are the plans...) I DID NOT say, "We have no plan, and are simply waiting...The end.")
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
It's not that I disagree with PJ. I didn't explain my self correctly. I've signed up to TVP and listed myself as an engineer, eager and available. So far I have not had a response. I've emailed channel 4 news in England and several other media companies as well as te U.N. I've been asking why this subject is not getting more mainstream attention. I hoped I'd get some meaningful response. How do we get people to understand? our leaders have been compromised/corrupted. "This shit's got to go" :0/
TheNorthernsoul80 1 month ago
@TheNorthernsoul80 The problem that exists primarily with the current existing systems is where the majority of the wealth is established (...in America, mostly...) and what is the baseline tolerance level of the citizenry (...most ascribe 9/11 as a 'litmus test', but I won't embellish further regarding thusly...). Point being, allow just enough for survival and the citizenry will tolerate almost anything...which is also the problem: culturally-induced apathy, morals notwithstanding...
mdlittle5466 1 month ago
Further to that i do support Jacque Fresco's split from the Zeitgeist movement. I see his point of veiw. You need a solid, core set of basic principles for this to work. This is no time for standing on soap boxes pointing fingers and throwing opinions around. The worlds corrupt, get over it.. Mobilise and move on.
TheNorthernsoul80 1 month ago
@TheNorthernsoul80 Um, I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. I lost respect for TVP after that display. Apparently you haven't listened the TeamSpeak meeting recording where PJ finally went off and aired everything out into the open. If anyone's on a soap box, pointing fingers, etc. it's Jacque & Roxanne. I agree it's time to move on, and TVP wasn't moving at all until TZM. Leaving TZM was the biggest mistake they ever made, hence PJ's been on RT a dozen times since, and TVP's MIA.
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
@TVPchallenge This may sound odd...and I don't profess to know the mind of Jacque Fresco, but would it be a stretch of the imagination to consider that the seperation was encouraged by Jacque to sponsor a more established research base amongst the Zeitgeist Movement? It was good to follow what Jacque had to offer, but without understanding...what good was it? Knowledge needs understood and appreciated...not regarded as directions for a 'No-Bake' Cheesecake. Thoughts?
mdlittle5466 1 month ago
@mdlittle5466 I'm not sure I understand the question entirely, but as it turns out there was not really much of a logical/practical reason for TVP's separation from TZM, and it was more of a hasty/stubborn decision based on their impression that TZM had "its own direction," and gave ZERO notice or opportunity for improvement. There was no mention/intention of establishing a "research base," or anything further w/TZM. They wanted to be their own entity, and in control of all financial decisions.
TVPchallenge 1 month ago
@TVPchallenge I guess I was trying to comprehend it from a social engineer's point of view. It's all well and good for individuals to recite knowledge acquired by another, but without sufficient understanding of said knowledge...well, that's how nukes get built. We can say a resource based economy is, logically, the best route...and can be proven, but to understand 'why' is essential towards establishing a resource based economy. You know this, I know this...most do not and that needs worked on.
mdlittle5466 1 month ago
I'm glad i'm not the only one who's having trouble getting people to see the blindingly obvious!..
we have to start somewhere.. this system is clearly failing. that fact alone deserves a rethink.
The Venus Project is viable. I've been in industrial engineering for 15 years. We can do a lot more than we are.
TheNorthernsoul80 1 month ago
u r a hot black woman. im glad u support the tvp.
watchWorld100 1 month ago
The video I sent you was an idea I had before you made this getting prepared for a challenge worth my time and mind...
Jobujack 1 month ago
We probably need a zombie apocalypse or some kid of catastrophic event to establish this new world order :/
bvjorge 2 months ago
Many people dedicate their entire life to things like murder and racism, and hate. So does that mean that we should give them the time to understand the reasoning they use? I think that argument for why we should learn more is not thought out well at all.
pcgamernum1 2 months ago in playlist More videos from TVPchallenge
@karllegaladvice, @amzzz951 Energy; this problem has been solved, look into de palma n-machine, hutchenson's work, or even the massive reduction in energy consumption, when, buildings are designed efficiently.
Military; the need of wich would be in rapid decline when ownership has been upgraded to strategic access. The warrior instinct wil never die. America hasn't been invaded bc we are warriors on an individual level. People get abused bc we allow it.
Shogundavis 2 months ago
One more: Are you simply acting for TVP autonomously, or do you somehow communicate through an activist platform or directly with Jacque/Roxanne?
GoodFortuneOfficial 2 months ago
So, yeah, that comment was pretty off-topic. Basically me admitting I'm also a human that is susceptible to having a tiny crush on girls being awesome on Youtube. ;)
Back on-topic. This is awesome. I am currently watching one of the challenges, and this guys has some valid points. I will study it more over later, as I am not closing my mind becoming a blind follower of an idea that hasn't even passed infancy. Great initiative, and really well formulated terms for the challengers.
GoodFortuneOfficial 2 months ago
Need.. More.. Girls.. Like you.
No, for real. Not just joking. My girlfriend is like you, she thinks for herself and doesn't let propaganda throw her off her own way of thinking. Though she did not research TZM and TVP extensively like you have done, like I have done, like hundreds of thousands have done. She might one day, though. But again: More girls like you. We guys fighting for a fair system need girls that fight among us, rather than drunk sluts that only want to... k'noodle.. ;)
GoodFortuneOfficial 2 months ago
What are the energy alternatives proposed by "the venus project"?
There are a few viable ones besides solar power and such. Stanley meyer type technology needs to be further researched.. There are groups doing this. Why isn't the venus project involved?? or are they??
karllegaladvice 2 months ago
"Seriously, just list to these idea's!"
Jobujack 2 months ago
What is TVP's plan as far as a military and national defense? Throughout mankind's history civilizations have invaded other's with goals such as expanding their empire, obtaining natural resources, even spreading religion. It would be foolish to assume the entire world would buy into this concept, and without a strong national defense it is inevitable that the society would find itself under attack? What is the plan to prevent and contest this attack?
amzZz951 2 months ago
People trust me this system can work.I use to have this narrow view of people,but once I got into sales that changed.Talk to enough people and you get a sale it works great.I found this worked for every part of my life.Talk to enough girls you get a date,talk to enough people you get more friends,talk to enough people more will come to your party,etc.The point is there will always be people who will do things without any money incentive.Plus when this has to do with everyone it's easier.
Blankname101 2 months ago
*That was fun* "Who said that C.H.I.M.P.S?" (Dawn says Thank's Marc you are seriously *pardon the language but* FuCkEd Up, well what to do now Brain(Hmmm...)" *AS IF* "Who said that C.H.I.M.P.S?"
Jobujack 2 months ago
The only real issue where I'm confused with TVP is how would anything ever remain the same even for short stints of time. We want to move forward, but if we only limit scientific study and progress to that of the limit of the resources won't society being making enormous leaps forward in every branch of science every weekend? How is someone supposed to keep up with it all lol?
I guess perhaps another form of science that has to deal with how quickly humans should move forward would emerge...
enticed2zeitgeist 2 months ago
FAQ-answers to questions 56 and 58 present a lot of problems,not to mention false assumptions about certain crimes and their origins.Who decides what the education is, for instance? Also, I think the RBE vs the current monetary model is a false comparison-the economy is already resource based,and having money that represents it isn't the problem,it's the fraud of the fiat debt based system that is the problem. Kudos for more localized economies-but 21st century communism isn't needed to achieve
Strav777 3 months ago
@Strav777 (1/2) It's not "who decides," but what method do we use to arrive at the decision. The reason Jacque uses the term "relevant education" is because the education has to be relevant to sustain our standard of living on the planet; that's how we "decide." As long as that's covered, we can remain alive long enough to learn whatever else we want to.
"the economy is already resource based"
You don't understand the term "resource-based," in contrast with monetary-based. >>
TVPchallenge 3 months ago
(2/2) Obviously every system/economy "uses" or "allocates" resources; that is not the reason it's called a Resource Based Economy. It's called so bc 1) it's a system w/out the need for any form of exchange, debt, or servitude. And 2) it uses scientific evaluation to determine the most efficient use of resources to satisfy a need, through cooperation, and is not based on competing to satisfy detached subjective values, which is what a monetary system ultimately does.
TVPchallenge 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Strav777 Seriously, your comments are out of place and make no sense
AlexGraphicD1 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I believe a resourced based economy is the only feasible model which has been offered recently, but I don't think Jacque and Roxanne are the one's to deliver it. They're control freaks over their ideas, and they want TZM/TVP members to pay for their movie for their own selfish purpose. In order for a RBE to flourish, we need to let go of ownership of ideas and information and share. Peter Joseph is the one who put TVP on the map through TZM. Support TZM people. P.S. >> yap, ur hot. ;)
Razorvan 3 months ago
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Razorvan 3 months ago
I don't get people who hate Jacque Fresco! The guy has done more than many of us ever have....
TheCosmicDaddy 3 months ago
U rock!
TheCosmicDaddy 3 months ago
<3
TheCosmicDaddy 3 months ago
AM WRITEING ON TABLET PLEASE EXCUSE THE CAPS. I APPRECIATE THE IDEA OF TVP AND YOUR REPRESENTATION HERE. AM ALSO A MEMEBER OF ZEITGEIST. HOWEVER, THE BIG ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM IS VERY SIMILAR TO THE ANALOGY YOU MADE OF THE OBESE JUNKIE WHERE ONE IS TREATING SYMPTOMS VERSUS THE ROOT CAUSE OF HIS PROBLEM. YOU ARE DOING JUST THAT TREATING THE SYMPTOMS NOT THE ROOT CAUSE. THE ROOT CAUSE BEING FEAR WHAT DO THEY FEAR THE MOST ADDRESS THAT AND YOU WON'T BE BEATING YOUR HEAD AGAINST THE WALL
riseingstardust 3 months ago
To say that mentioning how hot of a babe you are and if you are available is not relevant would be like saying that mentioning that it's getting a bit warm is irrelevant when taking a very important test even if a fire had just started! I discovered you today and after discounting TVP with very little study of it I will now become an avid student of it before I make any irrelevant points but I just had to make this one because it is very relevant! You are a very positive asset for humanity!
PictureForce 3 months ago
they tried this in a country already. its called russia
darkisato 4 months ago
@darkisato you obviously haven't read much about the Venus project at all.
peterjol 4 months ago
@peterjol yeah i did i watch all there videos and everything. the Russians tried this model but could not keep up with the times. the flaw about this system is who will fix the roads? the point that he makes is great but more automated the system come the less money you need to get anything. the reason why things cost allot is because the banks and the government yes but to give a group of people the power to trade rescorces and let me tell you this. to this system you are a rescorce.
darkisato 4 months ago
i might not be the smartest tool in the shed but i do know that when u give people a system like this it will never work out. and really what would you do? you wanna be a teacher? well when i can make a robot that can teach then ur out of a job then u will go to wha? sit at home all day and do nothing? if u want that then go home to ur mom and dads place and kick back and tell them, Hey working for the man is slavery so i wont work anymore! and see how long you can live. hell say anyone really!
darkisato 4 months ago
@darkisato Your soppose to be educated on the subject before commenting here. Your arguements are very flawed and show minimal understanding of TVP.
Chance1116 4 months ago
The question is not only, is it theoretically-possible.
Even after accepting all the technological ramifications, for a social system, even after acceptance of the value-system, globally,
the question still remains:
Will that be enough to eliminate aberrant human behavior on a grand-scale, such that all currently human-operated social-mechanisms, would become obsolete?
Because if that turns out not to be the case, how will society maintain stability without them?
AinurEru 4 months ago
We need to keep in mind, that whatever technological solution we can come up with, the out-growing of the needs for law-enforcement, could only be achieved (in the way Jaque points out it will), if and only if the understanding of the socio-behavioral mechanics, set forth within the RBE's assumption-base, are in fact in-lined with contemporary, scientifically-proven reality.
And as I show in my critique, that in fact appears not to be the case...
I'd like to get your view on the matter...
AinurEru 4 months ago
@AinurEru (See my comments on your vid.) If I have time I will make a video response, but otherwise maybe we can discuss it live. Thanks for the input! =)
TVPchallenge 4 months ago
Don't get me wrong, I'm all FOR the RBE model, it's just that I'm the kind of guy who has to get the jist of stuff, right down to the core, and see if it can really work as it claims it will...
So from that perspective, I went out on the trip of researching behavioral sciences, in the context of evaluating the RBE-model's viability, given cutting-edge scientific understandings of this still-controversial issue of human-behavior and it's relation to society.
AinurEru 4 months ago
good video I have a question that i havnt read the answere.I understand that many mindless jobs will be taken care of by machines. But what about scientists, artists, teachers . Will we have jobs in the future? it seems as if no one would want to work if there is no incentive and some jobs may seem more appealing than others in this world. Will people be required to work, or go to school? So how does that work?
420wassap 4 months ago
Where do you think we should START toward making The Venus Project a reality ?
lilstuntin420 4 months ago
wow.. your gorgeous.. lol
lilstuntin420 4 months ago
It would definitely work! We could have the humanitarian organizations give charity funds to progress this movement to pay off the media charges of advertisement. Get the all entities performing genocide to stop... well genocide, and more! Today, we call the first step towards this the UN. Now... lets pull Britain and America out of the equation... OOPS. There goes the system.
zoomizoomzoomzam 4 months ago
"Too much freedom, and we have anarchy. Not enough freedom, and we have tyrannical control. A proper balance with a little rebellion every so often means everything is going well," (Jefferson). I give you two oppositions: the Bad Egg Theory, and Reality Theory. You know what the Bad Egg Theory is, but Reality Theory says: History could not have gone any better, because if it could, it would have.
zoomizoomzoomzam 4 months ago
@zoomizoomzoomzam Okay, but we're not talking about going back and changing history; we're talking about how to shape the future.
TVPchallenge 4 months ago
@TVPchallenge - Since when did I say anything about changing history? lol Ideas will generally move when people are willing to take action. People fail to take action because of the "my one vote will not make a difference" concept. Your first goal should be attempting to put more common, middle class citizens into government, and pushing for government refreshment. If we can accomplish that, then your ideas may will gain platform because you will have proved that we are not bound by class.
zoomizoomzoomzam 4 months ago
@zoomizoomzoomzam Please explain how being bound by class hasen't already been proven? Also, how will refreshing the government make any difference at all? What is needed is a comprehensive and workable arrangement of environmental and social affairs that are in strict accord with existing resources and the carrying capacity of our planet. Without available resources and advanced technology poverty, war, and corruption will prevail no matter how many new laws are passed or treaties signed.
Chance1116 4 months ago
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GiozRockin 4 months ago
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GiozRockin 4 months ago
"Than this big ass sphere we live on" LOL
BigTeamButch 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Just made a petition to have the Obama Administration address the "Venus Project". It needs to be talked about.
GHRazorBladex92 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@GHRazorBladex92 h t t p s : / / w w w s.white house.gov/petitions/!/petition/address-venus-project-and-explain-whats-stopping-us-taking-course-action/ JkBWJNZK minus the spaces
GHRazorBladex92 4 months ago
So instead of publishing scientific papers in peer reviewed journals, TZM/TVP has youtube debates .....lollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
axe863 5 months ago
I think I am in love! <3 Thank you for existing!
shaemuskermiet 5 months ago 2
thank you for making this!
DJKAYZEE 6 months ago
"The Venus Project cannot solve all of our problems" - Neither Liberalism (Capitalism) or Socialism (Communism), so don't worry about it. =)
MGGoblin 6 months ago
"Oh... you are a -Insert evil label here-" - I hate that attitude.
MGGoblin 6 months ago
Good work TVPchallenge. You have a lot more patience than I, for refuting every tedious disingenuous little sniviling shit asking for numbers and algorithms. I'd ask for algorithms on how our current system of state capitalism is going to provide a table and a pair of shoes for every human being but even they know that can't work and merely accept wealth disparity as "a given". Unabashedly. Hey capitalism can't do it, no one can !! stop dreaming go back to sleep the american dream awaits
thenoorys 7 months ago
ill challenge her
yoransom 7 months ago
i have a question i was wondering if anyone can answer it? i saw a video on another channel on the Venus Project and it was talking about the writings of Alice Bailey and supossedly had similar material that led to these new world government theories, is this correct?
avefromqueens 7 months ago
Beautiful woman with a mind that exudes pulchritudity. If we get the ball rolling for the venus project and RBE the result would be a world full of smart, strong and beautiful women. Enough incentive for me.
Leaderofthebirdclan 7 months ago
I've been looking at the venus project for two years and think it really is great but I wish more people could like it too so that we can make it happen I think all ideas this guy has came up with could really help but I'm only 11 so it brings me to my question what about kids and teen rights we'r people to so why shouldn't we have all the right and that one thing I would add to the venue project and I love the shirt
chadantomlin101 7 months ago
Fresco is he is the smartest man on this planet.
bvssvni 7 months ago
@rianevans Then you must be just 'plain' illiterate (and deaf too) since I clearly stated in the Challenge rules, NOT to do exactly what you just did, which is write a pointless 5-word comment based on nothing but your opinion, not backed up by any actual arguments, and not referring to any of the materials on The Venus Project website. *Deleted* Try again.
TVPchallenge 7 months ago
All you need to understand why it wouldnt work is to read- Mises, Ludwig von. (1990). Economic calculation in the Socialist Commonwealth. Its about 40 pages and it explains very clearly why central planning cannot work. Virtually any educated economist knows this and uses it to refute this kind of central planning system.
couranga88 7 months ago
@couranga88 I've read it and watch?v=TsF4gAkuaeY. They don't explain why TVP can't work; they explain why Socialism can't work, a top-town approach, never anticipating that we could outgrow human labor & establish abundance on a global scale. To say "all you need is this book" to understand why it won't work, is like saying "all you need is this book" to know flight is impossible. Things change. Nothing in their premises refutes the NEW technological/economic possibilties outlined at Adciv*org.
TVPchallenge 7 months ago
@TVPchallenge No, it explains why central planning cannot work, which is the fundamental social organisation in TVP. You obviously have not read it. Central planning cannot work only because of technological/computational constraints (though it is also because of that yes). But because the information you need simply isnt there. I still invite you to read the book.
couranga88 7 months ago
And to say that we can outgrow human labour and establish abundance using science, economics and sociology is quite a sensationalist and idealistic claim by someone who has no knowledge of either. Furthermore, no one has ever explained how EXACTLY this central planning system is supposed to work. IF there is a detailed description about it please tell me because then we can have a civilized debate. If not im outta here because its just a waste of my time. Thats why no one takes TVP seriouslyBTW
couranga88 7 months ago
@couranga88 I said I wasn't an "expert," which does not mean I have "no knowledge" of it. The point of studying all of this was to LEARN exactly why it is possible or why not, and I have since learned why it is, and that's coming from those who ARE experts in those fields, like Joseph P Jackson. PJ explained how it would work, and how decisions would be arrived at, in Where Are We Going. Just bc the people who have their heads up Mises arse don't take it seriously, doesn't mean "no one" does.
TVPchallenge 7 months ago
@couranga88 (1/3) You telling my I haven't read it does not change the fact that I have. It was available for free in PDF format when I read it. You can believe what you want; I'm not going to argue with you. What YOU didn't read was the information on adciv*org, and are therefore stuck presenting a canned argument against central planning from the 1920's, rather than an argument that actually refutes exactly what we are claiming is NOW technologically AND economically possible, and why.
TVPchallenge 7 months ago
(2/3) The "information" that you're claiming isn't there, is communicating the productions costs to the consumer, and the consumer making decisions by taking those costs into account via pricing, thus accurately telling us what we 'should' produce. As I explained in RBE 101, not only is marginal utility based solely on the subjective values of the consumer, which is not enough information for sustainability or well-being, but also as explained in my blog at tvpchallenge*blogspot*com, even if >>
TVPchallenge 7 months ago
(3/3) even if people consume at a cost of "zero" to them, that does not mean we don't know what to produce. If production is based on providing the most efficient (meaning maximum productivity, minimum waste, most sustainable) goods & services (a.k.a Max-neef's "satsifiers") to meet the expressed needs/preferences of the educated population, we can continue doing so bc such efficiency has allowed us a relative state of abundance, so cycling through goods & services at "0" cost is a non-issue.
TVPchallenge 7 months ago
I'm very glad I found out about TVP about thirty minutes ago. It sounds very interesting and worth looking into... and you are very beautiful, intelligent, and extremely articulate btw.
mdlittle2010 7 months ago
I have a question, i don't know if it's been asked before, sorry if it has:
The ZM says we have to boicot the financial system, am i right? But isn't that system doomed anyway? Will not machines take jobs and hence consuming power from workers, and end the consumption cycle, breaking the economy?
If that's gonna happen, we don't need to boicot anything, unless we wanna speed up the process. Therefore world economy will colapse, no matter what we do, and the venus project will have its chance.
TheDarkFenix 7 months ago
Of course it's better than anything we have today, far better! I just don't think it's possible, well, anything is possible, but not likely. The most powerful today will lose their power and profits, hence, lack of support... To have a peaceful revolution as it is claimed by TVP is wishful thinking.
Maybe after World War III, who knows..
TheDarkFenix 7 months ago
Gotta love those cities, i just hope we have enough machine gardeners, lots of green everywhere!
TheDarkFenix 7 months ago
-U-T-O-P-I-A-
8noctus8 8 months ago
@8noctus8 -C-H-A-L-L-E-N-G-E--R-U-L-E-S-
TVPchallenge 8 months ago
@TVPchallenge Still i love the idea =)
8noctus8 8 months ago
I think its a great idea.....No contest.....The only one was who would program the central computer...but its simple a computer see's things as 1+1=2 thats whats needed to make decisions.Todays computers can do the job.
mosaicmaster1 8 months ago
@mosaicmaster1 If its so simple, show me the equation that will compute my need for a car, based on currently available resources that are constantly shifting due to technology that may render them obsolete at any poing? I'll buy into this dumbass project the moment they show me some algorithims or equations that will handle my lfe on just a simple lissue like obtaining a car.
theherdmentality 8 months ago
@theherdmentality A computer can update at any time...Oh don't worry...Its only a concept...Nor i or you will see this happen.First the economy must collapse and everything will go to crap,Humans will kill each other because they were trained for nothing...And even i,A Prepared person...May not make it.So don't concern yourself with something we may never see.I still love the concept.
mosaicmaster1 8 months ago
@mosaicmaster1 its a dangerous concept because it takes smart people's energy away from real solutions. Any concept that needs EVERYONE ON THE PLANET on board before it reveals how it's supposed to work is stupid AND dangerous. I'm just supposed to go along with this because they say no one will have tto work and no one will be poor??? ask any computer programmer if they think allocating the needs of one's life should be handled by a computer or computers whose programmers remain anonymous.
theherdmentality 8 months ago
@theherdmentality A computer doesn't care what race you are...It doesn't discriminate...People are always scared about things they don't understand,Its human...Just imagine a scared human making a life or death decision in 2 seconds....How many decisions would have been made by a computer.don't concern yourself with programers the computer will be..A.I...artificial intelligence.Remember you heard it here first...WW3 will be fought over food water and oil...Resources.
mosaicmaster1 8 months ago
@mosaicmaster1 you clearly don't understand.
What does your calculator do? It does what you tell it to do. it gives you an answer based on your input. computers are the same. they give you answers BASED on what you input. WOuld you trust me to program a computer that is supposed to tell you what you need and how much of it you can have? Whatever the computer decided would be based simply on my input, and my input alone, which i can skew however I want. war over resources isn't anything new
theherdmentality 8 months ago
@theherdmentality What do humans do they make stupid decisions on who they elect...and then those people make stupid decisions on laws that don't work.See its the same thing...Like i said its just a concept i also understand that the government we have is better than alot of governments out there...I believe everything evolves.I use my screw driver but my screwguns better.Try the screwgun...Its alot easier.
mosaicmaster1 8 months ago
@theherdmentality "needs EVERYONE ON THE PLANET on board..."
watch?v=7K12CPvc8wU#t=0m14s
Regarding computers allocating the needs of one's life... cpu's control matters of life and death all the time. Air planes, traffic lights, bank account balances, etc. You trust them to control those, but not simply help us calculate available resources and the most optimal path to abundance? Who said anything about the programmers remaining "anonymous?" If anything, everything is completely transparent.
TVPchallenge 8 months ago
@TVPchallenge I don't trust computers to control anything. As i mentioned above, it's the exact oppositte. I expect computers to do exactly what I've told them to do. Why can't the project just show us the computer program they want everyone to get on board witth, hook that program up to justt a single household and show us all how that computer manages that household's needs. it's that simple.
I'm not going along with this until that part is crystal clear.
who gets to program the computer
theherdmentality 8 months ago
@mosaicmaster1 Human beings are always killing each other, somewhere on this planet, all the time.
theherdmentality 8 months ago
@theherdmentality Thats right...The Egypt uprise is Over Food.Russia held its wheat crop....and food spikes at a price people can't pay...Empty bellys turn Honest humans to animals...Again Resources.You live in a developed country so things are peaches and cream even with a screwed up economy.Thats not the case for undeveloped countries.
mosaicmaster1 8 months ago
@mosaicmaster1 Basing an economy on resources is like people 500 years ago thinking that if everyone had a horse for transportation, there would be shit everywhere. THEY NEVER PREDICTED THE CAR!
One day we will have technology that will optimise resources or possibly get mroe resources from another planet, tha's why TVP doesn't make sense, and is unnecessary
theherdmentality 8 months ago
@theherdmentality Now its time for me to talk to you about technology supression.In the 1800's baker elec. and other companies were making elec. cars...And then they all disapeared..Todays cars haven't changed for over 100years.And your talking about going to other planets.First try taking battery pattents from the oil companies.Everytime someone invents something that treatens the oil companies,They buy the pattent from the inventor...If the inventor does not sell...He magicaly disapears.
mosaicmaster1 8 months ago