Milton Babbitt, String Quartet No 4 1970 Part One

[StevenGomezMusic]

if this was dedicated to the juliard quartet then i dont know what good music is anymore..

[toneeeeeee]

Analyzing this music is amazingly fun in the mathematical sense, and it fills the intellectual side of your soul with a sort of satisfaction that other music simply cannot match. However, when aching for expression and truth, I simply cannot see how the complexities of feeling can conform to a rigid twelve pitch pattern. It is this odd juxtaposition, the act of brain over heart that alienates this music from the masses. A soul simply will not remain healthy in this aural environment for long.

[Videoboy45]

I wonder what the sheet music looks like for this LOL.

[orthoman1000]

After two centuries of "enlightenment," then the Fascist and Communist revolutions, and then two fratricidal world wars, Western Christian Civlilization is dead. The Milton Babbitts are part of the decomposition.

[lovesGenet]

row series as statement(theme),retrograde etc. was Schoenberg idea . Later Babbitt first then Messaien got notion of serializing other elements. Rymthm worked better than durations or tone color( here pizz works against arco in strings ).Mode des valeures .while Babbitt also used derived sets (concept from Webern)

[posquint]

Just want to mention, in his Madison lectures, Babbitt said he was much more a Schoenbergite than a Webernite.

[lendallpitts]

Yes, an extremely interesting comment. However one must balance it with his statement that Schoenberg did not fully appreciate the implications of his own "discovery" -- meaning that he did not realize that a piece could be made more fully integrated or organic (my terms, obviously, not Babbitt's) by applying row structure to other elements: For example, to rhythm, the "poor stepchild" (I believe that was Babbitt's expression). So one might imagine that would make him Webernian.

[posquint]

Na, dude, I think Babbitt meant, in the totality of his approach to composition. Go and read it and see what you think. It's in WORDS ABOUT MUSIC.

[posquint]

@lendallpitts

'ite' vs 'ian', note.

[kristopaivinen]

@lendallpitts I believe Babbitt's comment stems from the weight of Schoenberg's influence on him compared to the weight of Weberns' influence on him. Babbitt's musical thinking seems to have been influenced by Schoenberg's music earlier than by Webern's, as row structures were not applied to Webern's works before the mid-30s, and Babbit knew Schoenberg way before that. Babbitt's solutions were developed as a consequence of Schoenberg and parallel to - but not as a consequence of - Webern.

[aculturemind]

@kristopaivinen

Babbitt explains why he's a Schoenbergite in Words About Music. Read it, yo.

[kristopaivinen]

@lendallpitts Consider this: "I mean, my music comes most DIRECTLY from Schoenberg with a little bit of Webern maybe, and Schoenberg takes you right back to Brahms." --Babbitt (emphasis mine)

[kristopaivinen]

@lendallpitts The answer is quite simply: combinatoriality. This kinda thwarts the interestingness of the comment; it's just so darn obvious, considering the presence of hexachordal combinatoriality in Schoenberg's music, which Babbitt just then developed further into trichordal combinatoriality, allowing Babbitt to project 4 rows simultaneously instead of just 2 as Schoenberg did. Webern's music exhibited no combinatoriality of any kind; only row-derivation, superficially related to Babbitt's.

[Nick0783]

This is definately a case of emporer's new clothes. One shouldn't need a theoretical explanation to enjoy a piece of music, it should be able to stand alone. Abandoning melody is not a good idea : )

[aculturemind]

@Nick0783

I don't need any explanation to enjoy this music. I simply hear it. The inflections, the character, the gestures. What wagon are you on?

[Nick0783]

@aculturemind Just read the comments written about this piece, they make absolutely no reference to the emotional or spritual effect that is achieved. It reads like a sociologist's conference: "Schoenbergite" "Webernian", everyone seems too busy showing off their knowledge of theoretical terms to ask: how does this make me feel? what does it mean?

It is a symptom of modernism that our response to the arts has become hamstrung by intellectual self-consciousness. Do you really like the music?

[aculturemind]

@Nick0783

Na, I call bullshit on that. I think those who appreciate the music have more complex experiences than 'oh my god that was so good!'. I have a fairly protestant way about it. I keep my religious experience to myself. In lay terms: who the fuck cares how you feel about it?* Whether you do is of some concern - but I'll enjoy the thing anyways.

And, music doesn't mean anything.

*Ah, this has a resonance with Babbitt's mis-named article, 'Who cares if you listen?'.

[Nick0783]

@aculturemind It seems to me that Babbitt, and other deliberately impenetrable composers, is hiding his feelings behind a wall of theory and jargon. By claiming he doesn't care who likes his music and turning away from a non-academic audience he is insulating himself from the judgement of the wider world. It is an essentially defensive reflex which, if you think about it, speaks volumes about the man himself. He has communicated his vulnerability albeit unwittingly...

[Nick0783]

@aculturemind ...This is what I meant by what it "means". To me the music evokes a bleak empty chaos, a puzzling lunar landscape of non-belief. This is a reasonable feeling to try to communicate if that is what is in his soul, however it is never balanced by any sense of resolution or redemption. Instead he leaves the listener in a perpetual state of unease. Is this good in any moral or aesthetic sense? I don't think so. Whats wrong with a bit of consonance? life is a mixture of light and shade

[aculturemind]

@Nick0783

Okay, man. That's you're experience. Mine is different. Generally speaking, the more chromatic the music, the 'freer' I feel. The 'space' in this kind of music is colorful and malleable - constantly fluxuating in light and texture. My attention is not demanded, but invited. And I accept, gladly.

Steve Roach's electro-ambient, though arguably more 'tonal', is of a similar nature. Or, back to art music, the late works of Scriabin.

[Nick0783]

@aculturemind Nicely put, although I still think that in comparison to the greats (Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Tschaikowsky, Ravel et al.) this is sort of lightweight stuff. I think we will have to agree to differ. I often wonder if the baffling quality of all modernist artistic endeavour stems from a decline in spiritual (not religious) conviction, in that it reflects- and therefore promotes-a kind of moral relativism

which is not altogether healthy. Are you familiar with Beethoven's work?

[aculturemind]

@Nick0783

Dude. Morals *are* relative. Which is why they're fuckin illusory. Tools of some, but not much, utility.

These human things I'm not really concerned with. I'm interested in space and movement and form.

I haven't listened to much Beethoven in a while. What would you like to discuss about him?

[Nick0783]

@aculturemind I don't really understand your point about morals being illusory.

I'm surprised to read a human saying they are not concerned with human things.

I would say that "space and movement and form" are human things anyway, at the very least one has to be human to perceive and delight in them. If you are in fact an alien I apologise for any offence caused by my anthropocentrism, and congratulate you on your grasp of west coast slang. Dude.

[Nick0783]

...Joking aside, in visiting this page to have this discussion I have started to find that Babbitt's random droplets of noise have grown on me a bit. I can certainly see more worth in it than I did at first.

I recently really got stuck into Beethoven's Pastoral symphony. I think it is an amazingly joyful work. To me it evokes the vast beauty and symmetry of nature, reminding me I am part of it and in doing so strengthens my own spritual convictions.

[aculturemind]

@Nick0783

I'm glad. Rock on, man.

[Nick0783]

@aculturemind You too mate, all the best

[istralm]

tell me when they are done tuning their instruments and are ready to play

[JaneByaela]

why don't you tell us who is playing??

[japanesesweet]

Babbitt's string quartet writing seems more dissonant and conventionally modernist than say his piano works.

You've found incredible images to go with the music...really helps.

[regcom]

@japanesesweet Where have you been the last 100 years?

[japanesesweet]

@regcom I like Babbitt`s music...i think you misunderstand me.