NTSB Animation Empire Airlines Flight 8284 operating FedEx owned ATR-42 N902FX

[cailleanmc]

Once you ask the question if you need to go around, you already know the answer. GO AROUND

[IFLYWINGS]

So thats where my package went containing my YoYo , it burned up !!

[tom211t]

I'm no expert.. but by looking would i be right if i said that if they had kept there speed at around 140-150 knots, used some rudder... they may have gotten it down a little better than what they did... Slowing down to 125kts then the inital burst of power looks like what caused the loss of control there... correct me if im wrong lol.. just what i was seeing.

[GIRrocks24]

It just seems so strange that, even though they willingly acknowledged there was something wrong with the flaps, they did nothing to really solve the problem.

[CFITOMAHAWK2]

In the 1980's a friend had that same Asymetric Flap Condition on a C46 on the downwind leg. He though it was a bad aileron but kept the speed high, flew the airplane with crosscontrols the right way and landed the dam dificult to fly beast of C46 (cargo loaded). He is a short lean guy and C46 are heavy on ailerons but he fought it down. These guys stalled it by not using rudder at all. Were flying in a slip most times which killed the speed and alt. and got them short of runway. Wet pants guys.

[jjaus]

SOP go around, run checklists. They did not do that.

[mnor1960]

How do we edit the comments???

My second line should be: "First of all: There was no CRM."

[mnor1960]

Some strange comments here...

First of all: There was CRM. We can agree on this.

Second: There was a flap asymmetry. When the difference between left and right flaps is more than 6.7 degrees during operation, the flaps will stop automatically. The crew did not notice this until very late.

Third: The autopilot can be used until 160 feet above the runway during approach. It disconnected when the stick shaker was activated. And by the way: Maximum altitude for the aircraft is 25,000 feet.

[MrIsuckatCOD]

i wanna play

[roofy2k]

so that's what happened to my package

[arayashikinoshaka]

One flap didn't came down, and the other was stuck at 15º, going around was impossible, best choice was to land... or whatever the captain calls that

[VIPBaller]

@dxproductions100 You do know there is something as '' AUTOPILOT LANDING" right?

[charlieechovictor]

@dxproductions100 depends on the Standard OPS but the autopilot can be used until on the ground. Autopilot is used at pilots discretion below 29 000ft...

[thatBMWkid]

@dxproductions100 Might want to ask your pilot brother again. Autopilot is used all the time below 10,000.

[charlieechovictor]

@thatBMWkid autopilot is used at pilots discretion below 29 000ft

[thatBMWkid]

@charlieechovictor Exactly. Autopilot can be used at all altitudes. I was just responding to the guy who said it was a felony to use it under 10,000.

[garuda330]

Is there any casualties in this accident??

[scarletsmith]

@garuda330 No, but the captain was VERY seriously hurt. Bad decision by the captain to even try landing in those conditions.

[SJB173]

@dxproductions100 hahaha wow, my dad is a QANTAS CAPTAIN, he's currently flying the Airbus A330, about to get transfered to the A380!.. I myself begin my commercial flight training next year in March. I WOULD KNOW. Everyone else who has any idea about what they're talking about will agree with me

[SJB173]

@dxproductions100 You know what? WHY THE HELL ARE YOU COMMENTING ON THIS.. you clearly have no idea whatsoever about flying or more specifically aircraft operations

[airman193]

I would have pulled up the flaps, considering one wasn't functioning properly. Then, I would commence a go around procedure, and find another airport with a longer runway, that can be used with a no flaps landing, with a higher landing speed, and a shallow approach.

[charlieechovictor]

@airman193 yes I'm sure they would have done the same if they knew that one flap was down but not the other !!! Though you are absolutely right it would have been the best solution. But I'm pretty sure that an ATR can land on this runway without flaps considering the reverse power available and overall it's STOL capability.

[bootini1]

If you'll remember it wasn't all that long ago when second guessing or even making a suggestion to a captain was very taboo. We should all be greatfull that that's all changed now.

[Corvette35000]

So THAT'S where my $60.00 order went!

[krabby4000]

that was really a terrible approach.. they should have gone around if it was that low 

[youngestpilotinGa]

he should have aborted way earlier on the approach....assessed the situation 

[presidentpit]

The answer to the question, "should I go around" is always YES! The capt. had no right to abuse their authoritative role and play cowboy by taking the controls.

Early in my training I asked my CFI this same question, "should I go around" and I'll never forget his response. He replied, "Do you feel comfortable with this landing?" to which I said "no" and then he said, "Then you should go around."

Now, I'm sure he would've been able to land it fine but then what would that have taught me?

[ronaldteo1]

this captain is not experince at all nor the co-pilot this should not happen agn. But The NTSB make a nice and clear video

[FlightLevelHeaded]

Physics 1 Airmanship 0

[negativewashout]

The part that bugs me the most is the decision not to go missed [approach] when a comment like "you know what? We got no flaps." is called out in IMC after the altitude alert, but I'm a VFR guy. Looks like the pilot flying didn't realize he was in such a hard left slip, notice the lack of corrective rudder inputs until it's too late and the stick-shaker had activated.

[archer49d]

@negativewashout You'd be surprised by most "larger" aircraft don't exhibit very many handling anomolies if flaps don't deploy until you get below 'min' speed, they seem to have noticed the issue at about the right time in terms of handling (should have looked at the indicator in the first place though), that being said, conditions were reported as freezing rain... CA probably got desperate to set it down at that point, looks like too desperate.

[ALBIONTYKE]

Bet it was a woman driver

[tradingpilot]

Did u guys not notice one of the flaps never came down

thats why the FO is fighting the airplane the whole way down.

Still don't get why they tried to muscle the plane down

[theturnerconnection]

@tradingpilot at about :30 into the vid you can see the left flap coming down to 5 degrees??? Also the AP wasn't turned off until they were at 700 ft. ASL? I know there's good AP's out there, but not good enough to compensate for that much wind sheer.

[natofsx8]

Should i Go Around? Yes off course you are 2nm out of course heading to land in the taxiway. Why don't go-around?

[gustavo87467357]

very very very unresponsible, the go around procedure should have been performed

[recacon3]

"Should I go around?" "No." <- That's the part that caused the accident.

[marick626]

Can I ask this to someone? if a pilot is doing an approach, whether it be a FO or Captain, should it be the call of the pilot who is actually at the controls to decide if they should go missed? The captain probably thought the FO was doing something wrong, but the only one who was doing something right was the FO. At least he admitted they where in trouble. Hell, they might have even gone around if the idiot captain didn't take the controls. Just saying.

[flyboy242]

@marick626 Yes and no, its all about saftey of flight. i've been an FO and i had the controls taken away from me, and i did the same when i upgraded.

[Flyglobespan93]

He had the throttles at idle at 2:15 until the crash, he should have had some power and prevented the stall

[sunnofliberty]

Split Flaps?

[EasternMerchant]

There are times when you just have to do what you Feel like and forget what the boss says, especially with your life at stake!

the Poor FO was correct in her observations and should've been allowed to do a go around and try to land with clean configuration and 0 degree flaps!! They has enough runway to do a landing without flaps, the goal is to minimize all risks as much as possible!

[phobal]

Male captain got broken eye socket and female FO got bruised back.

[jonny2387]

i cant believe how uncoordinated they were flying

[d0rkiishchris]

i take that back i see the rudder in the last moments, but still they were throwing the yoke around unfortunately.

[d0rkiishchris]

Wow, throwing the yoke around in a stall, you don't touch the alerons in a stall. I saw no rudder input during any of this. I don't understand why the captain pulled out all the power when they nearly made it. If he had kept the power in they probably woulda been fine.

[TrickyGap]

Selected as the Video of the Week for the cadets of the Lubbock Composite Squadron Civil Air Patrol. Thanks for posting this video.

[Lokomotyfa]

Flaps Unlock

If alarm occurs during approach

GA POWER ....APPLY

GA speed INCREASE +10

when possible

Flaps ZERO

Reduced flaps LDG procedure (Flaps0) apply

[kd5fxj]

Im not sure they understood that they had an asymmetric flap setting. The FO was obviously having to fight the aircraft for control. She should never have given the plane to the captain. And if she was going to give the plane to the captain, call missed approach and give the aircraft to him at altitude. Also, that runway is 11,500 ft long, carry some extra speed to address the control issues. I do, however, know that the weather was low IMC. I landed just a few hours before this flight arrived.

[phobal]

@kd5fxj um, she asked (should have called) for go around and pic said no. so, what do you do? do a landing you're not comfortable doing with around 100 hours in an ATR?

you are right about the flaps: neither remembered looking out the window at the flaps

[mslaracroftrocks]

sad

[kennethjohn93]

why is the autopilot still on

[CharliePilot1]

The wind was 350 degrees at 10 knots! (ntsb rpt) What had you thought Sir Nick?

[sirnicholson]

dude the wind is hurrican force!!!!

[pokefanj]

At the beginning of the video write that the type of the aircraft is an ATR-72 not an ATR-42 as you wrote in the title of this video

[R160A]

And it looks like they almost got a good landing, but then they inadvertantly stalled it

[dollarboy500]

why was he rocking ot so much at the end? cant always depend on AUTOPILOT...

[FazerAddict]

pilot fucked up

[gtafan2006]

at the flaps 15 callout the left one gets to 10 then jams the right one dont even deploy having seen that wouldnt the first officer ask the captain to retract flaps? to see if they would infact even retract at all before attempting to land the plane. with more lift on the left wing it would have been smarter to increase throttle on the right engine to increase lift on that side to counteract the force of the plane wanting to bank right plus some left rudder to keep it straight and level.

[dollarboy500]

its very easy for us to take our time and said what we COULD have done, but when it is in real times its different

[skyyguyy]

You're right, but with one exception. When in doubt... GO AROUND!

The FO made a great initial call, but threw the airplane away, and almost his own life, by handing-over control to the Capt.

Save your life first, then... while on the ground ALIVE... let the Capt. argue and complain all he wants.

CRM rules!

[AllanVictoriaA]

Monday morning quarterbacking is golden. I am surprised, however, that flaps weren't immediately retracted, full power applied and go-around initiated. Even when the captain asked for full power the copilot did not apply power quickly. To me, I think I would have jammed the throttles forward for dear life. Glad no one died and qudos to Airboyd for yet another fabulous video! 5*!

[frequenceez]

The co pilot called the go around and his landing was smoother but as soon as the captain took over he messes everything up

[Nonionolinin]

Wiiiieeeerrrrrddddd landing.

[gtafan2006]

the real question is why didnt he try a no flaps landing after noticing his right flap was jammed in the full retracted position. i mean all he had to do was retract the flaps lever. this is something you learn in a flight simulator. i have done single flap failures on fsx before and i always retract flaps and do a go around. its common sense to retract flaps and declare an emergency after going around is it not?

[Diastro3D]

As you said my guess is that they were jammed... Normally if they can't go lower, they can't come back... And the go around wouldn't have been a good idea... flying with a jammed flaps is (in one word hell...) :P

[gtafan2006]

but wouldnt an increase of power on the right hand engine have at least given them a bit more controll due to the increased lift on the right wing from it moving through the air faster than the left wing?

[Diastro3D]

Nop. As the flap on the left wing been already lowered it creates lift but also drag. Increasing power on on side would most probably create a yaw motion of the airplane. My first reaction would have been to increase power on both side and aplying left aileron (sightly) + right rudder.

[im1knight]

why didn't the captain issue go around?

[Matt007b]

co pilot called it right...should have gone around. Kind of scares me in that situation. Easy to armchair quarterback this situation but if your copilot asks should we go around it' doesn't hurt to go around and re-think and talk it over. :S least they're both ok.

[horizonflyer9]

did they have a tailwind during the landing?

[n711z]

If the flap indication is correct there was differential flaps and not no flaps which would make the airplane very unpredictable.

The left wing would constantly want to roll the plane right requiring constant left aileron just to control that. you can see this at about 38 seconds.

Differential flaps is not what you want to be learning how to deal with on an approach.

[cskog001]

...Then as the Captain comes out of the dive, he does not add power. Remember they have no flaps, so they should stay faster than a normal approach, but while in a turn with uneven flaps, the captain takes it down to 122. Too low, and too slow for maneuvering to get the runway, should have gone around earlier. But I assume all got out alive, am I correct?

[cskog001]

At 0:32 it looks like L flaps extend 5 and R stay in place. It takes them until 1:11 to realize they have no flaps. FO offers a go around but Captain decides to continue in. At 1:54 Captain takes controls then dives the airplane, usually not a good choice. Wind is only 010@08, so not a huge factor, but considering they took so long to actually see the runway I assume there was dense fog/rain covering the area.

[Latvietis96]

wow nice

He did it just like me in fligh simulator ^^

[ThatGuy042]

I assume the issue must have been icing but I'm still confused as to why the captain initially decided to not go around and very confused as to why it took so long for him to throttle up, especially after realizing he had no flaps, getting repeated stall warnings, and having the stickshaker go off throughout the final approach.

Anyone have any insights or was this just a series of bad decisions?

[riverdave7]

if winds were zero and zero how did they screw that up?

[ThatGuy042]

"winds 010 at 8" meaning winds were coming from NNE at 8 knots.

[SVnerd]

Since they were attempting to land on 17R, does this mean they had a tailwind?

[ThatGuy042]

The wind would be coming from 20° to the left of the tail but the real issue here was not winds but icing and an apparently poor response to it by the captain.