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An excellent in depth debate between a Trinitarian Gradationist espousing Temporal Incarnational Subordinationism and a Socinian Unitarian who denies the pre-human existence and divinity of Jesus/Logos.
Szygyify 4 months ago in playlist Debate Unitarian vs Trinitarian
Jesus Christ is the son of God and hell of a bright guy. Now if you look at his writings everything will be clear to you.
cheddyrod 4 months ago 2
@cheddyrod Hey that is good advise. Can you tell me where I can find any of his writings.
clausewitzmoltke 4 months ago
@cheddyrod ::: And where will we find his writings? As far as is known, he left no written records. What is written about him was done long after his 'death'.
k0smon 2 months ago
@k0smon That is exactly my point.
cheddyrod 2 months ago
Bob, I agree with you that "the Father is the source and the Son the means of Creation"...but the question should be, WHICH/WHAT creation? Col 1 is not talking about the Genesis [birds, trees, etc.] but a "spiritual creation" [thrones, powers, etc.]. And Heb 1 is referring to a future world [Heb 2.5; Ps 102.22-27].
Also, how can do you account for the fact that Jesus himself attributes the Genesis creation to SOMEONE ELSE OTHER THAN HIMSELF in Mat 19.4; Mar 10.6; 13.19?
kyzersoze74 4 months ago
@kyzersoze74 How could the father be testifying to a future REcreation, using an aorist (past tense - completed action) at Hebrews 1:10.
MrLimeyBob 4 months ago
@MrLimeyBob...you mean like Isa 9.6? Past tense action of prophecy does not help you. The fact is that the "creation" in view is a future, prophetic one by the use of Ps 102. This is furthered proven by Heb 2.5.
kyzersoze74 4 months ago
@MrLimeyBob By the time Hebrews was written Jesus had ascended.
anissueofursincerity 4 months ago
“If God’s role is as Creator, both source (ek) and agent (dia), as in Romans 11.36, then Jesus shares in that role as divine agent (dia) but not as source (ek). The identity is partial...’Equation’ seems to be a better way of saying that if Jesus is God he is not YHWH, he is not the Father, he is not the source of creation, he will finally be subject to God so that God (alone) will be all in all.” J.D.G. Dunn, Did the First Christians Worship Jesus?, p. 144.
kyzersoze74 4 months ago
@MrLimeyBob Sounds great! I am so looking forward to this series. God bless you for what you are doing brother!
robotwookie 4 months ago
YES! I have been waiting for this!
robotwookie 4 months ago