I am neither Orthodox or Catholic but I do have a question. Do only the clergy of the Orthodox church receive visions or revelations or can laymen receive them too?
@Christos13Anesti: If absurd or not - it is FACT. Have u found the Canon? Go and also study the writings of the Holy Fathers - St. Basil the great and others also have written about.
Greetings from Serbian Orthodox !! May God bless You brothers and sisters, with the clear path, health, strong faith, peace and love, and protect you from any harm and evil ! Much love for you from here!
@dis00612 I like the Orthodox traditions of Icons, the divine Litergy of St John Chrysosdom and St Basil, the way Christ is celebrated during litergy. The Divine Litergy is not changed since its formation, I think that is important to not change tradition .Fasting is a big part of the Orthodox Church on Wednesdays and Fridays as well as during Lent,Christmas and several other times during the year. The Jesus prayer is something I pray alot during the day that is a big tradition there.
@hotlanta35 The Catholic Church practices fasts on Wednesdays and Fridays as well as lent and Christmas and other days. The Jesus Prayer is said in the Roman Catholic Church. Also, the church did not change.
@dis00612: U are a liar ha? Because I live in an almost 100% country and no one fasts on fridays or wednesdays. When I ask someone they even don't know about it. The same with great lent, or before the Nativity of Christ. No one fasts. They even eat fish in great lent - even priests and bishops - officially.
They also do not fast before communion! And so on....the do not know what prostrations are, they do not know that christians pray facing east, they do not know that kneeling is forbidden
@adamantis4657 I fast on wednesdays and fridays and so did our saints. I also fast during holy days, i fast before communion in the traditional latin mass we see the altar faces east. kneeling is merely to reinforce devotion to the Holy Eucharist.
@dis00612: Even the Mother of God said to Paisiy Velickosvksy (I think it was him) the this church is cursed! Because they PLAY being ORTHODOX - but they are not.
It is only a sign how corrputed catholicsm is - they try everything to catch souls! NO ORTHODOX CAN HAVE COMMUNION with heretics and betrayers of faith.
@adamantis4657 He was either a liar or the devil appeared to him and told him this. Dont believe everything you hear. Historically, the Catholic Church is the original church and its teachings are compatible with the bible and the early fathers.
@dis00612: Your stubbron repeating is in vain. We have allready discussed why the catholic church is not the original church - I have explained to u. I also have shown much patient with u. So do not star now the same discussion again - that would be not honest.
I have shown that your conclusions are wrong!
The case of ST. Paisiy - NO HE WAS NOT WRONG. MANY MANY MANY orthodox Saints and Elders have said the same. DIRECTLY FROM THE THEOTOKOS.
@adamantis4657 keyword-ORTHODOX! Of course orthodox people will claim that the Theotokos told them that. If I told you that the THEOTOKOS appared to a Catholic Saint and told him the orthodox church is not the true church what would you say?
@dis00612: Look, we are not like catholics, Visions are only accepted when they are from Elders and Saints and when they ARE NOT AGAINST THE TEACHING OF THE CHURCH. Vassula for example is not accepted in the orthodox church. Her visions are not from GOD.
So those Visions are trustworthy because the Elders and Saints are trustworthy and what they have seen or heard is not against the church.
God has given many signs to show where truth can be found!
@dis00612: And I think I have tried to explain why the Orthodox faith is the correct one! Look - let me try it this way: When u become orthodox - u only come home. Would I become catholic I would have to accept many new things. Do u see the difference?
@dis00612: Hey - we had that discussion loooong before. I have told u that it is not honest, when u come after some time again and start the same discussion again.
When I have proven that u are wrong - accept it! Do not always start the same discussion!
To answer short:
MANY MANY THINGS - MANY UNCANONICALTHINGS! From the New Calendar, to pews, organs, instruments, the Mass, statues, papism, filioque etc....
@adamantis4657 OK but your not understanding. 1st of all, you act like the early church fathers are infallible popes. THEY ARE NOT! Also, statues are not prohibitted in scripture, the doctrine of the pope is in scripture,the filioque is in scripture and approved by EVEN THE FATHERS so i see I may have to repeat myself because you are not understanding. Do you follow scripture at all?
@dis00612: NO U ARE NOT UNDERSTANDING! And we had that discussion before.
The church is BASED on the teaching of the HOLY FATHERS! Every Synod, every Canon - every Dogma = FROM THE HOLY FATHERS. NO FATHERS - NO TRUTH.
I hope u know what "consensus patrum" means?
Not ONE FATHER is infallible BUT THEY AS A WHOLE TOGETHER are infallible - because the CHURCH IS INFALLIBLE and in the consensus patrum is the faith of the church.
@dis00612: STATUES were NEVER ALLOWED IN THE CHURCH. The Holy Fathers have allowed ICONS and ICONOGRAPHY but not 3dimensional STATUES. And Icons are Holy Objects - painted after strict canons. And not by everybody. Holy Iconography is a DOGMA OF THE CHURCH.
Those catholic statues ARE UNCANONICAL because statues were never allowed and beacuse of the depiction. They are naturalistic figures. Holy Icons NEVER ARE NATURALISTIC - the are painted theology - painted domgas
@dis00612: The filioque is NOT IN THE SCRIPTURE and it was NOT ALLOWED BY THE FATHERS. In the contrary:
EVERY MAN THAT DARES TO ADD ANYTHING TO THE CREED:
ANATHEMA ANATHEMA ANATHEMA
The faith of the Holy fathers is perfect - there is NO NEED TO ADD ANYTHING! I follow scripture but not like the protestants - I FOLLOW THE INTERPTRETATION OF THE HOLY MOTHER CHURCH.
We are not allowed to interprete the Holy Scriptures according to our private understanding!
@adamantis4657 since the canon was written to forbid the composition of any teaching contrary or contradictory to any truth already expressly defined in the Creed of Nicea-Constantinople. Other creeds had been used before and after Nicea, witness the one attributed to St. Athanasius. And witness also that the Creed of the Council of Nicea was itself reformulated by one Ecumenical Council which took place in-between Nicea and Ephesus: Constantinople I. since its hard to write much I will inboxu
This CREED IS PERFECT WHO EVER DARES TO ADD ANYTHING OR TO SET ASIDE ANYTHING - TO HIM BE ANATHEMA!
U see they said: the CREED IS PERFECT! It was not allowed to add EVEN ONE WORD. That was the reason why many POPES were against the filioque: St. Leo the great Pope of Rome for example.
@adamantis4657 Father Anthony J. Maas, S.J., the great Catholic Scripture scholar says, “As to Sacred Scripture, the inspired writers call the Holy Ghost the Spirit of the Son (Gal 4:6), the Spirit of Christ (Rom. 8:9), the Spirit of Jesus Christ (Phil. 1:19), just as they call Him the Spirit of the Father (Matt. 10:20), and the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:11). Hence they attribute to the Holy Ghost the same relation to the Son as to the Son as to the Father.(cont)
@dis00612: We orthodox also call the Holy Spirit; Spirit of the son but that is not what the filioque says! The filioque is wrong because it teaches TWO SOURCES in the Trinity. There is ONLY ONE SOURCE - the FATHER. The Holy Fathers have said that there is ONLY ONE CAUSE in the Trinity = FATHER. He is unbegotten - the son is begotten and the spirit proceeds.
@dis00612 You have not understood the theological argument. The HS proceeds in two ways:temporal and eternal. Your quotes refer to the temporal mission of the HS. The verse from the Creed refers specifically to the eternal procession of the HS which can only be from the Father, the origin, source and cause of Godhead. Procession from the Son sets up a ditheism, semi-Sabellism and contradicts scripture. Even St Augustine (Roman position) says the HS proceeds from the son via a gift of the Father.
@dis00612: They do not know that kneeling is forbidden strictly on sundays! They do not know that priests are not allowed to shave their beard (ususally no man is allowed) - they do not knwo that women should cover their hair!
They do not knwo that instruments are forbidden by the fathers! They do not know the symbolic meaning of the sign of the cross etc...
You may keep your fancy and sumptuous mass to yourselves. What we, the calvinists, have is a simple communal meeting without this spectacle for Jesus was against opulence hence we truly follow his footsteps as we do not turn the Mass into an opera.
@adamantis4657 Looks like the orthdox church changed alot too. You cant say we Catholics are the only ones that changed and Roman Catholicism is the church of Christ.
@dis00612: Well, the roman catholic church is in heresy since about 1000 years and is faaaar away from truth= CHRIST:
But of course some pseudo orthodox christians have become modernised - and not everything called orthodox is orthodox.
For example the NEW CALENDAR (so called gregorian calendar) is uncanonical and only was introduced for ecumenism. Those modernised orthodox christians are infected by protestantism and catholicism - they have become westernised!
@dis00612: NO - the catholic church has clearly changed! The whole understanding of salvation. What Liturgy is, what monasticism is, what the mysteries are, etc....everything has changed.
@adamantis4657 we see organs and instruments in the orthdox church. Women not covering their heads, liturgy in english and not greek, etc. and you hav changed. The orthdox church spit from the Roman Catholic Church. The orthdox church was NOT the original church. You say that the holy spirit did not proceed from the father and the son but we see the early church fathers saying this and we see the assumption of mary and her sinlessness in their writings. We are the original church.
@dis00612: U and your "co-cathlics" are not honest - I often noticed that in discussions - do u think u honor God in promoting lies? U know who is the father of lying?
1.) Organs are strictyl forbidden in Holy Orthodoxy - the Holy Fathers have forbidden the use of instruments - go and study their writings.
EVERYONE WHO DOES USE ORGANS is indirectly UNDER ANATHEMA because the 7th Ecumenical Synods sets everyone under Anathema who sets aside any Tradition of the Holy Church
When u go to Russia - in whole Russia NOT EVEN ONE ORGAN. when u go to Serbia -----> NOT EVEN ONE ORGAN, I never EVER saw any ORGAN in Rumania, Ucraine, etc..
Only some greek mondernised parishes (which can hardly called "orthodox") have introduced them - ONLY TO COPY THE HETERODOX.
But those modernised parishes are not the "ORTHDOOX CHURCH" - and they have many orthodox people AGAINST THEM - those parishes are not orthodox and they should be dismissed immedialtly.
2.) PEWS are stritctly forbidden and NO ORTHODOX used them for 2000 years! AGAIN only some modernised parishes started to use them too - IN WHOLE RUSSIA NO PEWS; IN WHOLE SERBIA NO PEWS; etc...
Pews are forbidden and everyone who used pews is indirectyl under ATNATHEMA because it is a part of the Holy Tradition to offer prayers while standing, bowing, prostrating, kneeling and not sitting like in theatre
3.) In russia usually WOMEN WITHOUT HAIR COVER are not allowed even to enter the church. The Holy Apostles, the HOly Scripture, the Holy Fathers, Saints,....ordered that women have to cover their hair. Why do u think the Most Holy Mother of God is shown always with covered hair?
Again only in those modernised parishes (where ORHTODOXY IS SUFFERING AS THE ELDERS SAID) women do not cover their hair.
4.) The catholic church split form the orthodox - and this is nota believe it is a FACT. The Holy Orthodox Church has kept faith - the catholic church set aside one tradition after the other! Instead of keeping faith - theiy introduce one new thing after the other.
5.) The Holy Fathers EXACTLY have said: that there is ONLY ONE CAUSE in the Trinity = FATHER. St. Gregory the author of the CREED says: THERE IS ONLY ONE SINGLE CAUSE IN THE TRINITY = The Father
@dis00612: St. John of Damscus, St. Maximos the confessor, St. Dionysios the great = the ALL SAY EXACTLY that there is only ONE CAUSE in the TRINTIY = THE FATHER.
It was forbidden to add ANYTHING to the Holy CREED - EVERYONE WHO dares to add even a word is UNDER ANATHEMA.
The filioque destroys the harmony of the Trinity. The son is not the cause of the Spirit! The son SENTS the Holy Spirit to us and the Holy Spirit is called the spirit of the son but NO WHERE is said the Son is the CAUSE
6.) The Assumption of the Most Holy Theotokos - who has told u that we do not believe in the bodily Assumption of the the Most Holy Theotokos? Only because we have no "DOGMA" does not mean that we don not believe in. It is not common to procclaim "marian" Dogmas. That is a catholic creation...
BUT EVERY orthodox christian has to believe that She was assumned on the 3rd day with body and soul and spirit.
7.) The sinlessness of the Most Holy Theotokos: AGAIN who has told u that fairy tale?
Of coruse the MOST HOLY THEOTOKOS is SINLESS: We call Her unceasingly: ALL- HOLY; MOST PURE; ALL-IMMACULATE; ALL-BLAMELESS; MOST HOLY; EVERBLESSED; GRACEFILLED; MOST GLORIOUS;
In some orthodox hymns She is called: God worthy, divine child .....etc...
The Immulate Conception is a very "catholic" Dogma - and we do not accept because we do not believe in "original stain" or original guilt
8.) NO u are not the original church - and that can be proven. Your church is a creation of the middle ages. Veneration of hearts, novenes, etc... NO ONE of the Holy Fathers ever wrote about.
Monastic orderes, Masses,.....NO ONE of the Holy Fathers ever mentioned such things......concert music for worship etc....
AGAIN it is ridiculous to say: The catholic is the original and the orthodox is not - LOL - that is really ridiculous!
@dis00612: U can see how dangerous it is to be an ecumenist!
Catholics not only have introduced PEWS, ORGANS, INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC (even rock music - they are crazy) STATUES etc... they even dared to change the doctrine of the Holy Church. Even monasiticism ....everythings changed....
This looks like one of those animatronic fortune telling machines, like from that Tom Hanks movie, "Big". Sorry I have nothing else to contribute to the usual 'scholarly debate.'
I pray every day for reconciliation between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches. We've come pretty close a few times, and God willing we'll get there someday. Pope Benedict XVI has even gone as far as saying that filoque is no longer a dividing issue as far as he's concerned.
DId Jesus or any of His disciples did any of this/?? or are they just old pagan rituals??? I dont understand what the guy is doing and i'm sure none of the people there do... Its a dead religion :( If u dont repent hell awaits u
@dorinFeher - Yes, this is the way the early church worshipped. Take some time to read the writings of the early church fathers. The liturgy is based on Scripture and is very moving. The Orthodox Christian faith is anything but a dead religion. It's all about having an encounter with Christ. It's hard to understand what a service is like from watching a video. I encourage you to visit an Orthodox service to fully experience the worship.
@emwcee well I read the Bible and I'm reading in it on a daily basis. What I read is not what I see here.... I never read someone light a candle or prayed to a saint and oviously the early church had no such buildings painted in all colours and with all those legends... The early church was persecuted and was powerfull ... There were signs and miracles happening and everybody could see God was with them ... U dont see this today ... kissing dead bones or prayng to saints is against the bible =(
@dorinFeher Wow are you extremely rude or just plain retarded? No1 knows where any1 will go except for god himself. You are the one who should be repenting you HERETIC! In the old days they burnt ur kind, you should consider yourself lucky that you weren't born back then.
@ekoado ahm actually I know where I am going ... do you know where you go?? If not repenting of this pagan rituals, superstitions and heretic thought ur not going to end well.. I suggest u read the bible a bit and then make a comparaison to what u see in the greek otrthodox church today.
what ortodox guy did was chance the names of the roman/greek gods into saints ... not very smart ... and added a lot of pagan stuff but lots what's unique about Christianity ...Jesus Christ our lord and saviour
@dorinFeher lol you can't base everything on the bible, there is also the church and the holy tradition. The bible alone is like a blind man with binoculars, you need the church to give you vision before you can use the equipment (the bible). The reason why there are so many different protestant sects is because they all say: Bible is all I need! Every couple years a guy has a new interpretation of scriptures and so a new sect is created. There are literally 100s of denomations because of this.
@dorinFeher Im judging based on ur comments that ur probably either an Evangelical/born again/pentecostal or a Baptist. Both of those denomination were the result of mixing Puritan beliefs with those of the Anabaptists. Now the reason why you guys stress the importance of the bible so much is because its ALL that you have. You don't have the church of old and you clearly don't have the old tradition since you are a new denomination. Read history my friend.
@ekoado I'm just gona ask u something thatnshut up ... maybe u can answer me and clarify this ... Did the early church had the holy tradition or the church of old?? oviously not becase the church start at with the early church :) lol see what u say its senseless .. Also I din't find no passage in the Bible ... not even one telling me tradition is on the same level as the Bible ... Tradition is man made ... Biblie is given through the Holly Spirit to men..Jesus never prayed to a saint by theway
@dorinFeher Lol what you said didn't make much sense....but here is what destroys EVERY Protestant denominations: a council meeting of early church fathers DECIDED which books belonged in the bible and which didn't (before this there were tens if not hundreds of different bibles). And this council was led by the early church which was the DIRECT precuror of the Catholic/Orthodox Churches (this was hundreds of years before the 11th century split) So this only leaves 3 options
@ekoado so i still don't know ur answer what holly tradition did the early church respected???? when they decided which books were good and which were bad the church was already corupted with pagan rituals ... all those councils afterwards where councils of people who where far from the truth ... it all started after Constantin gave freedom to Christians when the world started to enter the church ;) plz spare me and read acts ...thats really the early church
@dorinFeher Haha you do realize then that you can't trust your bible, because that bible was chosen by what you call the "corrupted church". What denomination are you? If you are protestant, you shouldn't have the balls to criticize the Catholic or Orthodox Churches which are far more likely to be true. You should either be Catholic, Orthodox, or not christian at all.
@ekoado actually I see what u try to say and I find very stupid ... Why?? Way before the split when the council meet to agree on which books were good or bad there was no catholics or orthodox .. only christians... Now tell me why I shouldn't be able to trust that book as protestant?? DID catholics made it or orthodox?? Naa they only added a couple of books in the 14th century which of course we reject because theyr stupidities ..tales of dragons and stuff +a few chapters here and there (Daniel)
@ekoado now when they decided which books were good and which ones were bad they kicked out apocryph books and kept the old testament and the actual writtings of the apostles .. which was good.. and guess what the bible they made then is the same as the King James version which has a different source...So book I trust is good .. Catholics and ortodox added to it stuff like tradition and other books later but who cares.. Now u got ur answer I hope plz post some more inteligent comments I'm no kid
@dorinFeher no lol you have been completely brainwashed with bullshit (probably from fucking American missionaries). All of that is wrong, the Catholic and Orthodox churches NEVER added anything to do the bible. What you are talking abiut is seperate books which they considered some-what holy, which were tradition information and such. The church that created the bible was the DIRECT PREDESESSOR(what about that can't u UNDERSTAND) of the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
@ekoado The old church if tracked through history records, is CLEARLY the predecessor of the Orthodox/Catholics. You clearly don't understand the history behind the bible. There were many gospels which were throught to be real by some that were left out. MANY. Infact the heretic gnostic created their own bible before the current 1 was made. Also, the Ethiopian and Assyrian churches have gospels which others dont have.
@dorinFeher You are evangelical and you live in Romania? How dare you make the heart of Europa filthy with ur wicked perverted ways! The most epic and pure land is being defilled by your bullshit AMERICAN beliefs (evangelical religion started in America 100 years ago). You listen to the fat redneck American over the brilliant people in Europe! You fucking support George Bush that way! You traitor of Europa!
@ekoado see now the true face of the true "Christian" is shown.My answer stays the same as before since its good enough and its truth .. no1 being able to say anything else unless lyng... Well thx God somebody woke up at least 100 ago and returned to the scriptures and to the true way... For your own info God is doing an amazing work in Romania with already about 800 000 pentecostals only, growing churches, holly spirit baptisms and all other accompanyng signs u can find in Mark's last verse =)
@dorinFeher I can't believe that you believe the words of a stupid American (I live in America so I know what im talking about) over the words of a 2000 year-old ancient and wise organization. Pentecostalism is Christianity without all the epic and awesome things which make up Christianity. Only the negative things are present within it, such as damnation of others and "magic". And all pentecostals believe the world is 6000 years old.(thats NONSENSE)
@ekoado lol do you really think that if this argument had any merit the Protestant Church would still exist? Or do you really think every Protestant has ignored an argument which invalidates their entire faith? Surely there is but one Protestant among the hundreds of millions of them that is smarter than you, yes?
@OramAndy Most of the world population are under-educated foolish masses. ESPECIALLY so the protestant populations. And out of those ESPECIALLY the pentecostals and Baptists. If anyone did a decent amount of research regarding the origins of Christianity (with an open mind), Protestantism would clearly be eliminated from the list of possibly correct religious beliefs.
@ekoado Oh I see. Out of the hundreds of millions of Protestants, none of them have done any research on the bible. Especially not the hundreds of Protestant scholars who spent years going through tens of thousands of ancient biblical manuscripts to create the NIV Bible, and certainly no Protestant preacher has ever done research. Nope. Only you and the website in which you got your info are the only ones who've done research. Get out of here. There are people who are smater than you, you know.
@ekoado Argumentative logical fallacy: you failed to respond to the argument at hand. What I am is not important; I jumped into the argument because of the stupidity that was flying around. I don't mind what it is, be it Protestantism, Catholicism, or Eastern. They each have something to offer. Whether or not they are correct does not matter to me, I am just forced to jump in when bad arguments are being made, whether it's for or against any form of any religion.
@OramAndy I see. Well your point of "Out of the hundreds of millions of Protestants, none of them have done any research on the bible. Especially not the hundreds of Protestant scholars who spent years going through tens of thousands of ancient biblical manuscripts to create the NIV Bible, and certainly no Protestant preacher has ever done research" is explained by the fact that they put faith beyond reason. No matter how much evidence is shown to them, they fail to acknowledge it.
@ekoado The first sensible you've said. Of course they put faith beyond reason. God (assuming for the argument God exists) is not rational, logical, or reasonable. Not by worldly logic. If there is a being such as God, He would not be bound by the laws of physics obviously. God cannot be disproven by any worldly science/logic. In the same manner He can't be proven thus either. If so, faith would be obsolete. All evidence has to come from the Bible, which is subject to interpretation and faith.
@OramAndy "First sensible you've said"- wow ur really into belittling people.
But anyways, you are wrong about all evidence coming from the bible. The bible is obsolete if you know the bigger history surrounding it. Bishops of the proto-orthodox church (the one that eventually split into Catholic and Orthodox) CHOSE which books should belong in the bible and which not. Not only this, but there were also serveral other completely different bibles, such as the gnostic bible which is oldest.
@ekoado As a preacher once said to me: "God was sovereign enough to guide the Bible-makers in the choosing of the scripture that went in." The Bishops assembled the Bible, but they did not author it. The Bible still contains holy scriptures. Please, quit assuming you are smarter than hundreds of millions of people. Surely there is one Protestant that can disprove you.
@OramAndy That falls upon faith alone. You have to have FAITH that they were guided by a divine force. Anyways even if they were guided, that automatically disproves Protestantism. Because then protestants are using someone elses book (its the book of the Orthodox and Catholics). So who is right, the ones who wrote book, or the ones who can "properly" look at it. Protestantism is silly. It was created by Luther because he wanted higher authority and power. And you have too much faith in people.
@ekoado You don't know about Protestantism. It's very similar to Catholicism, they just interpret the Bible differently, that's it. Your arguments are full of logical fallacies and factual errors, and frankly, I have no idea what you're talking about, and I'm not entirely sure you do either. Protestants believe in the death of Christ for Man, they believe in baptism, and follow the rest of the Bible to the dot. Protestants are Christians. Your entire argument is based off of a logical fallacy.
@OramAndy the Catholics WROTE THE BIBLE. Therefore they have to be right. It is THEIR book. Logical fallacies? All the things I've said are factual and can be easily proven (and most are common sense) Either Catholicism/Orthodoxy are correct or all of Christianity is false. You entered the argument all snot-nosed and selfrigheous, probably to get a fast ego boost. You are pathetic. Read a history book before you argue with the big boys.
@ekoado The Jews wrote the Bible, including the New Testament. Jesus was Jewish. And it is the words of God and Jesus in the Bible; no Jew or Catholic wrote it. Those who assembled it didn't write any of it. Catholics can still misinterpret it. And history books get much of their information from that time period from the Bible. It's surprising, you've disproved Protestantism, how come this isn't world news? Oh, that's right, because it hasn't been disproven. How old are you?
@ekoado...The most obvious reason Protestantism is eliminated from the list of possibly correct religious beliefs is because it is 1,517 years removed from Christ. True Christianity goes way beyond being able to cite biblical verses. After all, the Christians of the first century had no NT to appeal to, but rather the devine guidance of APOSTOLIC TRADITION (2 Thessalonians 2:15). God bless all my Catholic and Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ! Pax Christi +
@dorinFeher these 3 options are: either the Catholic Church is true, or the Orthodox OR all of Christianity is wrong. You can't go around this, there is no fourth option. THERE IS NO FOURTH OPTION. Protestants use the bible which was affirmed and aproved by the precurors of the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Every protestant (be he pentecostal, methodist, baptist, presbyterian, or whatever else) uses a bible which DOES NOT belong to them. Protestantism is clearly wrong.
For anyone whose "church" was first established after October 31, 1517 please be a little more respectful of the Sacred Scriptures by not ripping out verses and placing them in isolation. BTW, do any of you Protestants know that not just the NT, but also the OT was written in Greek? Ever heard of the Septuagint? I think that one of my Orthodox brothers can legitimately teach you a history lesson as far as the Canon of Scripture goes.
Garbage. The old testament was written in Hebrew and a bit of Aramaic. The Septuagint was a translation by Hellenized Jews for the benefit of those Jews who no longer spoke either Hebrew or Aramaic.
@LatinRiteChristian Khm. Te OT was written, actually, in Hebrew. The Septuagint is the translation of the Sacres Scriptures made by the Jews of Alexandria, according to the sacred tradition.
@bitterclinger100...Well, I don't think they teach that the Septuagint is somehow false. What they teach is that those books included in the Septuagint known as the deuterocanonicals in the Catholic Bible are not inspired. Some Protestant Bibles actually do print these books but are explicitly placed in a section known as the Apocrypha, which could either mean "hidden" or "not inspired".
@LatinRiteChristian Thanks for clearing that up. It's basically what I meant but I used "false" instead of "uninspired" or"apocryphal". Either way, Protestants don't use it.
As far as I know, the Septuaginta contained a Greek translation of the ancient Hebrew and Aramese texts of the OT. The NT was written in Greek, that's correct. I wonder why you write "Church" like you do, refering to the protestant churches. The protestant churches are as much churches as the orthodox and catholic ones.
@optimatus...The protestant "churches" are not really churches. They are DENOMINATIONS that broke away from the western half of the one true Church known as Roman Catholicism. The eastern half of the one true Church is Greek Orthodoxy. The true Christian Church is ONE entity composed of these two different rites. Both of these rites are APOSTOLIC, and therefore, the true heirs and guardians of the deposit of faith. Anything outside of these two rites is man-made, watered down Christianity.
The real Christian is the one who believes in Jesus Christ, our Lord, Who is our Saviour. The Christian sings the Apostolic Creed, the Creed of Niceae and the Creed of Athanasius. Every Church is a denomination. And thank God, we do not have to fear prosecution because of our religion here in Western Europe.
@optimatus...Well brother, if you take one good look at history you will see that for 1,517 years the Church was ONE. After those first 1,517 years numerous denominations arose because they chose to follow the doctrines of men such as Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley, and John Knox, to name a few. Therefore, I implore you, study ecclesiastical history and you will come to the reality of the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC CHURCH. Pax Christi +
By the way, does it make any *sense* to anyone that God would want people to be mindless drones whose actions have no effect on their destiny? What a miserable world that would be.
One of the beauties of Orthodoxy (and Roman Catholicism, for that matter), is that it shares a deep philosophical connection with ancient Greek reason and logic. Faith without logic is meaningless.
@nojyt I find it difficult to see how Greek Orthodoxy supports 'logic' when its masses are conducted in ancient greek, which even I (Greek speaker) cannot understand?
I don't mean this as an affront to your faith, just an observation.
Most people do not understand the ceremony or its subtlties.
@SulfurCitizen: I should be clearer - I haven't been religious for a long time. As to your point, I am of the Greek diaspora (born and raised abroad), yet even I understand 75% of the liturgy. I find it hard to believe that anyone raised in Greece has trouble with it. It's not "ancient Greek", by the way, but "koine" - centuries younger than classical "ancient" Greek. Even so, I fail to see how the choice of language reflects the logical basis of the faith. You're talking about politics.
Let's see.... we can trust the new "academic" interpretations of the faith, or the original ones that have been carefully preserved for thousands of years despite outside influences.
ChristianTULIP, Brother, I could not get you to see the light on the 1st Four Revised Solas. But apparently, I did get you to see the light on the 5th Revised Sola because you actually changed your salvation tense from "Saved" to "Will Be Saved". That's good. Still, that means WE GOT A LOT OF WORK TO DO ON THE 1ST Four Solas. I must admit you Protestants are tough in the theological arena. Nevertheless, I will always welcome a good challenge. God bless you!
This a common misunderstanding of the patristic traditions. Protestants believe that salvation consists of justification, santification and glorification. What does not require works is justification. So we are justified, but in a complete sense we will be saved. So we do believe that works are requisite for salvation but not justification.
The "will be saved" is referring to all those whom God had planned to save before the foundation of the World (Eph1:4) who will receive their salvation in Gods due time. I am referring to the definitiveness of Salvation for God's Elect. In no way does it suggest that Salvation has to be earned in any way shape or form from the efforts, works or natural will of man. Salvation is the sole result of Grace Alone. We are saved by Grace through faith in the finished Works of Christ ALone.
I grew up in a heretical, protestant, calvinist sect and it almost killed me. I was abused physically and mentally. Now, I am Orthodox and it has been the vehicle by which I have come from death to life!
Still, things aren't the protestant style prosperity gospel walk in the park that evangelicals talk about, but I am glad to be where I am. There's a purpose in my life that there was not before.
The Divine Liturgy is the most beautiful, important thing in my life!
I'm Coptic Orthodox and I never heard this before and I LOVE IT i just love how you guys pray it is so beautiful although i don't understand it but still
Christian TULIP: You need to quit reading those Jack Chick comic booklets. You also need to quit reading anything by John Calvin because he deviated too much from the Septuagint which was the Holy Bible of the apostles. The Geneva Bible is hogwash. James 2:24
asked if the elder all the people who came everyday with questions tired him. He answ: I'll tell you. When the discuss is spiritual it doesn't weary. It's bad when people ask altogether unreasonable questions. If they are illitr and ask such things it will be alright. But there are "smart" people, students, and they ask you what relation the time has with the consien of the person. In such cases I say, 'Here I have coffee and 1 or 2 aspirins. Sit a little and little we'll clear up your theme.
2) The Greek and Roman Churches are both APOSTATE. They used to be the same. Today both still violate the laws of God in the similar doctrines they hold and in the idolotrous ways they worship.
True Christianity is based on the 5 Solas:
1)SCRIPTURE ALONE is the only authority
2)People are justified by FAITH ALONE in
3)CHRIST ALONE
4)Faith comes by GRACE ALONE
5)Were saved for GODS GLORY ALONE
The Greek Evangelical Church is still faithful and the only Greek church anyone should worship at
I have read Luther's Bondage of Will and other protestant stuff. You are not completely wrong.You have a great portion of the truth but Orthodoxy has the whole of the truth, You have not understood Orthodoxy that's why you write these things. Protestantism started as a movement to liberate men from the forensic spirit of Papism but sadly it ended up another form of Judaism. That's why you write such things about icons. No matter how pauline you try to sound, you are still captive to the old law
Firstly - The scriptures do teach the 5 Solas and secondly God gave his Church teachers for a reason - and that was to bring his people out of the darkness of the16th Century Roman Church and rediscover the truth of the first Century Apostolic teachings as found in the scriptures.
Learn about it? I used to be a Greek Orthodox. I've found that the Greek Evangelical Church is far more faithful to the teachings of Scriptures. They don't violate the second commandment by making images of God.
God gave the Law to the Jews for certain reasons and when the hour came He gave His Son to the whole humankind. That Son, Jesus Christ, the incarnated Logos, is "the icon of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15) and His words are no more written in tablets but in the hearts of Christians. That basic truth of Christianity is manifested through the theology of the icon of the Orthodox Christian Church.
From the Law of God (Judaism) to the Icon of God (Christianity).
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
Firstly - the scriptures do display the 5 Solas. God gave his church teachers to bring the scriptures back to the people at a time when the Med-evil Roman Church actually outlawed the common man to posess or read. If something was not written - then you should not assume that Christ taught it! I used yo be a Greek Orthodox - so I know what and how the church worships. Making an image of God and venerating it with kisses, candles, flowers is Idolatry and violation of the 2nd commandment. Obvious.
You are in error. This False doctrine that keeps sinners in bondage to man made institiutions and the works of the Law for which Christ came to set his people from from:
1) Authority is Biblical. The Apostolic Age ceased with the death of the Apostle John. Today we find all authority in the completed cannon of Scripture. (2Tim3:15-17)
2) We are justified by FAITH ALONE in the finished work of Christ (Gal2:8). Works are a natural consequence of salvation - not a means to obtain it (Eph2:10)
"Today we find all authority in the completed cannon of Scripture. (2Tim3:15-17) "
This is not Biblical, and 2 Tim 3:15 hardly suggests this. What that verse does say is "all Scripture is inspired", not "only Scripture is inspired." By the way, who formed the canon of Scripture?
"Works are a natural consequence of salvation - not a means to obtain it"
How can you reconcile this statement with James 2:24:
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
Incorrect! Read verse 16. The scriptures are the inspired Word of God for a reason - to serve as the "authoritative standard" by which we rest our knowledge of God, Knowledge of ourselves, doctrines, Worship practices etc.:
In essence - God Formed and brought together the Canon of Scripture working through men - Much the same way that God pre-determined the death of Jesus through the hands of sinners. God works his will through all men: whether they are saved, unsaved, reprobate, etc.
3) James 2:24 is teaching that works are a natural consequence of true saving faith. If one posesses a true faith from God - it is one that naturally produces good fruits. The works are not a means to obtain salvation - but a natural consequence of being already born again (regenerated). If Faith does not naturally produce the works of God - then it is a "Dead Faith" of the unregenerate. If you believe that your works are necessary to obtain salvation - you do not posess a saving faith from God.
James 2:24 is not saying works are simply a product of faith, but it explicitly says works are part of our justification and not faith alone. It even says works influence our faith, for example:
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" James 2:21-22
3A) Incorrect! The scriptures teach that man is justified (declared righteous) by Saving faith Alone in the finished work of Christ - and that this faith is NOT a result of Works:
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.
3B) James 2:21-22 is NOT teaching that Works create a mans "saving faith" - but that works outwardly PROVE (justify) that a man already has saving faith because saving faith is a "LIVE FAITH" that will naturally produce Works in opposition to a "DEAD FAITH":
James2:23 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness
Works did NOT Create Abrahams Belief in God - his works outwardly PROVED (justified) his belief in God.
Equating justification to proof cannot work. James clearly says that works are not just proof, but are part of our salvation or justification. What you seem to imply is that we believe in works alone. Orthodox believe faith and works cannot be separated ie. faith alone or works alone would be impossible. Both affect one another. Good works cannot save us if they are done without faith, and faith cannot be strengthened without works. Both depend on one another to exist.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ORDAINED that we should walk in them.
Works are not a required freewill prerequisite to earn salvation. Faith is Granted to God's people (Phillipians1:29) along with the natural production of Works---analogous to a fruit tree that actually bears fruits.
Your religions theology is in bondage to a gospel of works because they teach that you must in some way: earn, merit and commit other required works to inistiate, maintain and close the deal on salvation. What they fail to understand is that salvation cannot be earned, It is all a product of sovereign grace alone. Faith, works and good works are simply a consequence of salvation - a manifestation of the regenerated sinner. These 3 consequences do not BRING ON salvation - they are the effect!
Salvation is not earned through works. Salvation is only accomplished through communion with God, and this is not done without a struggle. It requires faith and works. Christ said we must take up our cross and follow Him. This is an act of faith and works and it must be ongoing. There is no point where salvation is earned and we can stop struggling.
Correction - A salvation that does not rest 100% upon grace via faith in the finished works of Christ - but "requires" human efforts to initiate, maintain and complete salvation in addition to faith is a false gospel of Works. Christ did say that we must take up our cross - but he did not say "WHY" anyone would in Matt10. The reason why anyone would is because:
I am neither Orthodox or Catholic but I do have a question. Do only the clergy of the Orthodox church receive visions or revelations or can laymen receive them too?
YadahPeople 2 months ago
@YadahPeople Not only the cleregy. Sometimes none. It depends on the depth of the spirituality of the person. Laypeople can have revelations.
AndrewOfTheMoat 1 month ago
you have to be pretty sad to dislike a religious video
loadedClownZ 6 months ago
@Christos13Anesti: We should keep the Tradition incorrupt. God bless u!
adamantis4657 6 months ago
@Christos13Anesti: If absurd or not - it is FACT. Have u found the Canon? Go and also study the writings of the Holy Fathers - St. Basil the great and others also have written about.
adamantis4657 6 months ago
@Christos13Anesti: Than go and start to search again! U will find it ;)
adamantis4657 6 months ago
Greetings from Serbian Orthodox !! May God bless You brothers and sisters, with the clear path, health, strong faith, peace and love, and protect you from any harm and evil ! Much love for you from here!
ComptGeorges 7 months ago
the Orthodox Church is awesome, I have been going to litergy for 3 years and I hope to become Orthodox .
hotlanta35 9 months ago
@hotlanta35 Why not Catholic?
dis00612 8 months ago
@dis00612 I like the Orthodox traditions of Icons, the divine Litergy of St John Chrysosdom and St Basil, the way Christ is celebrated during litergy. The Divine Litergy is not changed since its formation, I think that is important to not change tradition .Fasting is a big part of the Orthodox Church on Wednesdays and Fridays as well as during Lent,Christmas and several other times during the year. The Jesus prayer is something I pray alot during the day that is a big tradition there.
hotlanta35 8 months ago
@hotlanta35 The Catholic Church practices fasts on Wednesdays and Fridays as well as lent and Christmas and other days. The Jesus Prayer is said in the Roman Catholic Church. Also, the church did not change.
dis00612 8 months ago
@dis00612 just be happy wherever you attend church and keep Jesus Christ as the reason for worship is what I think is important in my life.
hotlanta35 8 months ago
@hotlanta35 True but one is in full communion with Christ when one is in his true church.
dis00612 8 months ago
@dis00612: U are a liar ha? Because I live in an almost 100% country and no one fasts on fridays or wednesdays. When I ask someone they even don't know about it. The same with great lent, or before the Nativity of Christ. No one fasts. They even eat fish in great lent - even priests and bishops - officially.
They also do not fast before communion! And so on....the do not know what prostrations are, they do not know that christians pray facing east, they do not know that kneeling is forbidden
adamantis4657 8 months ago
@adamantis4657 I fast on wednesdays and fridays and so did our saints. I also fast during holy days, i fast before communion in the traditional latin mass we see the altar faces east. kneeling is merely to reinforce devotion to the Holy Eucharist.
dis00612 8 months ago
@dis00612: That does not matter if u personaly fast or not - it is your church who is far away from apostolic teaching!
Kneeling is forbidden on sunday and sets everyone under ANATHEMA who does. Also kneeling between Pascha and Pentecoste is forbidden!
adamantis4657 8 months ago
@adamantis4657 Have you ever heard of the Byzantine Catholics who celebrate the same exact liturgy as you?
dis00612 6 months ago
@dis00612: YEah - and wht do u want to prove with the Uniates? The look like orthodox - but aren't.
adamantis4657 6 months ago
@adamantis4657 Yes, the have the same exact liturgy as you do, do you too say that they have changed the liturgy?
dis00612 6 months ago
@dis00612: Even the Mother of God said to Paisiy Velickosvksy (I think it was him) the this church is cursed! Because they PLAY being ORTHODOX - but they are not.
It is only a sign how corrputed catholicsm is - they try everything to catch souls! NO ORTHODOX CAN HAVE COMMUNION with heretics and betrayers of faith.
adamantis4657 6 months ago
@adamantis4657 He was either a liar or the devil appeared to him and told him this. Dont believe everything you hear. Historically, the Catholic Church is the original church and its teachings are compatible with the bible and the early fathers.
dis00612 6 months ago
@dis00612: Your stubbron repeating is in vain. We have allready discussed why the catholic church is not the original church - I have explained to u. I also have shown much patient with u. So do not star now the same discussion again - that would be not honest.
I have shown that your conclusions are wrong!
The case of ST. Paisiy - NO HE WAS NOT WRONG. MANY MANY MANY orthodox Saints and Elders have said the same. DIRECTLY FROM THE THEOTOKOS.
adamantis4657 6 months ago
@adamantis4657 keyword-ORTHODOX! Of course orthodox people will claim that the Theotokos told them that. If I told you that the THEOTOKOS appared to a Catholic Saint and told him the orthodox church is not the true church what would you say?
dis00612 6 months ago
@dis00612: Look, we are not like catholics, Visions are only accepted when they are from Elders and Saints and when they ARE NOT AGAINST THE TEACHING OF THE CHURCH. Vassula for example is not accepted in the orthodox church. Her visions are not from GOD.
So those Visions are trustworthy because the Elders and Saints are trustworthy and what they have seen or heard is not against the church.
God has given many signs to show where truth can be found!
adamantis4657 6 months ago
@dis00612: And I think I have tried to explain why the Orthodox faith is the correct one! Look - let me try it this way: When u become orthodox - u only come home. Would I become catholic I would have to accept many new things. Do u see the difference?
Orthodoxy is the root of catholicism!
adamantis4657 6 months ago
@adamantis4657 Can you tell me what new things you would have to accept?
dis00612 6 months ago
@dis00612: Hey - we had that discussion loooong before. I have told u that it is not honest, when u come after some time again and start the same discussion again.
When I have proven that u are wrong - accept it! Do not always start the same discussion!
To answer short:
MANY MANY THINGS - MANY UNCANONICALTHINGS! From the New Calendar, to pews, organs, instruments, the Mass, statues, papism, filioque etc....
SO STOP IT!
adamantis4657 6 months ago
@adamantis4657 OK but your not understanding. 1st of all, you act like the early church fathers are infallible popes. THEY ARE NOT! Also, statues are not prohibitted in scripture, the doctrine of the pope is in scripture,the filioque is in scripture and approved by EVEN THE FATHERS so i see I may have to repeat myself because you are not understanding. Do you follow scripture at all?
dis00612 6 months ago
@dis00612: NO U ARE NOT UNDERSTANDING! And we had that discussion before.
The church is BASED on the teaching of the HOLY FATHERS! Every Synod, every Canon - every Dogma = FROM THE HOLY FATHERS. NO FATHERS - NO TRUTH.
I hope u know what "consensus patrum" means?
Not ONE FATHER is infallible BUT THEY AS A WHOLE TOGETHER are infallible - because the CHURCH IS INFALLIBLE and in the consensus patrum is the faith of the church.
adamantis4657 6 months ago
@dis00612: STATUES were NEVER ALLOWED IN THE CHURCH. The Holy Fathers have allowed ICONS and ICONOGRAPHY but not 3dimensional STATUES. And Icons are Holy Objects - painted after strict canons. And not by everybody. Holy Iconography is a DOGMA OF THE CHURCH.
Those catholic statues ARE UNCANONICAL because statues were never allowed and beacuse of the depiction. They are naturalistic figures. Holy Icons NEVER ARE NATURALISTIC - the are painted theology - painted domgas
adamantis4657 6 months ago
@dis00612: The filioque is NOT IN THE SCRIPTURE and it was NOT ALLOWED BY THE FATHERS. In the contrary:
EVERY MAN THAT DARES TO ADD ANYTHING TO THE CREED:
ANATHEMA ANATHEMA ANATHEMA
The faith of the Holy fathers is perfect - there is NO NEED TO ADD ANYTHING! I follow scripture but not like the protestants - I FOLLOW THE INTERPTRETATION OF THE HOLY MOTHER CHURCH.
We are not allowed to interprete the Holy Scriptures according to our private understanding!
adamantis4657 6 months ago
@adamantis4657 since the canon was written to forbid the composition of any teaching contrary or contradictory to any truth already expressly defined in the Creed of Nicea-Constantinople. Other creeds had been used before and after Nicea, witness the one attributed to St. Athanasius. And witness also that the Creed of the Council of Nicea was itself reformulated by one Ecumenical Council which took place in-between Nicea and Ephesus: Constantinople I. since its hard to write much I will inboxu
dis00612 6 months ago
@dis00612: NO - the FATHERS HAVE DECLARED:
This CREED IS PERFECT WHO EVER DARES TO ADD ANYTHING OR TO SET ASIDE ANYTHING - TO HIM BE ANATHEMA!
U see they said: the CREED IS PERFECT! It was not allowed to add EVEN ONE WORD. That was the reason why many POPES were against the filioque: St. Leo the great Pope of Rome for example.
adamantis4657 6 months ago
@adamantis4657 Father Anthony J. Maas, S.J., the great Catholic Scripture scholar says, “As to Sacred Scripture, the inspired writers call the Holy Ghost the Spirit of the Son (Gal 4:6), the Spirit of Christ (Rom. 8:9), the Spirit of Jesus Christ (Phil. 1:19), just as they call Him the Spirit of the Father (Matt. 10:20), and the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:11). Hence they attribute to the Holy Ghost the same relation to the Son as to the Son as to the Father.(cont)
dis00612 6 months ago
@dis00612: We orthodox also call the Holy Spirit; Spirit of the son but that is not what the filioque says! The filioque is wrong because it teaches TWO SOURCES in the Trinity. There is ONLY ONE SOURCE - the FATHER. The Holy Fathers have said that there is ONLY ONE CAUSE in the Trinity = FATHER. He is unbegotten - the son is begotten and the spirit proceeds.
Only the Father is the SOURCE!
adamantis4657 6 months ago
@adamantis4657 Absolutely correct.
ASignOfContradiction 3 months ago
@dis00612 You have not understood the theological argument. The HS proceeds in two ways:temporal and eternal. Your quotes refer to the temporal mission of the HS. The verse from the Creed refers specifically to the eternal procession of the HS which can only be from the Father, the origin, source and cause of Godhead. Procession from the Son sets up a ditheism, semi-Sabellism and contradicts scripture. Even St Augustine (Roman position) says the HS proceeds from the son via a gift of the Father.
ASignOfContradiction 3 months ago
@ASignOfContradiction: YES - we orthodox also say:
The HOLY SPIRIT PROCEEDS FROM THE FATHER - THROUGH - THE SON...
But we also say the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Son, etc.. BUT WE DO NOT SAY: THE SON IS THE ETERNAL CAUSE OF THE SON.
Because otherwise we would have 2 Sources in the Trinity and the Monarchy of the Father would be destroyed - WE WOULD HAVE TWO FATHERS.
adamantis4657 3 months ago
@dis00612: They do not know that kneeling is forbidden strictly on sundays! They do not know that priests are not allowed to shave their beard (ususally no man is allowed) - they do not knwo that women should cover their hair!
They do not knwo that instruments are forbidden by the fathers! They do not know the symbolic meaning of the sign of the cross etc...
They clearly have lost Holy Orthodoxy!
adamantis4657 8 months ago
@hotlanta35 The Byzantine Catholic Church has the same exact liturgy and traditions and practices. Join the Catholic Church.
dis00612 6 months ago
@dis00612: To join the catholic church would mean to betray CHRIST!
adamantis4657 6 months ago
You may keep your fancy and sumptuous mass to yourselves. What we, the calvinists, have is a simple communal meeting without this spectacle for Jesus was against opulence hence we truly follow his footsteps as we do not turn the Mass into an opera.
AlkkeniseBuorsk 9 months ago
@AlkkeniseBuorsk We can worship God in anyway, as long as it is from our hearts.
dis00612 8 months ago
But greek church is soo modernised now: PEWS, ORGANS, WOMEN DO NOT COVER THEIR HAIR; MEN AND WOMEN ARE MIXED IN CHURCH etc....
They set aside one Tradition after the other.....!
That's not Holy Orthodoxy - because true orthodox christians keep Tradition.
adamantis4657 9 months ago
@adamantis4657 Looks like the orthdox church changed alot too. You cant say we Catholics are the only ones that changed and Roman Catholicism is the church of Christ.
dis00612 8 months ago
@dis00612: Well, the roman catholic church is in heresy since about 1000 years and is faaaar away from truth= CHRIST:
But of course some pseudo orthodox christians have become modernised - and not everything called orthodox is orthodox.
For example the NEW CALENDAR (so called gregorian calendar) is uncanonical and only was introduced for ecumenism. Those modernised orthodox christians are infected by protestantism and catholicism - they have become westernised!
adamantis4657 8 months ago
@adamantis4657 "The Catholic Church has NOT changed. Our understanding of the teaching of the apostles has deepened and developed over the centuries"
dis00612 8 months ago
@dis00612: NO - the catholic church has clearly changed! The whole understanding of salvation. What Liturgy is, what monasticism is, what the mysteries are, etc....everything has changed.
adamantis4657 8 months ago
@adamantis4657 the orthdox church has changed
dis00612 8 months ago
@dis00612: How old are u? U behave like a little kid..
I mean what u want here? It is a FACT that the roman church has changed! There is no need for discussion because everyone knows.
STATUES; ORGANS;PEWS;INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC (EVEN ROCK MASSES; CLOWN MASSES;) - NEW CALENDAR; SHAVED PRIESTS; FASTS; FILIOQUE; PROSTRATIONS; NOVENES; ROSARIES; VENERATION OF HEARTS; MONASTIC ORDERS;.....
Go and search if u will find monastic orders in the writings of the dessert fathers!
adamantis4657 8 months ago
@dis00612: It is ridiulous to say the Orthodox church has changed but not the catholic!LOL
Go and watch your Mass - and compare it to the old roman Liturgy! U will see - u have changed everything.
adamantis4657 8 months ago
@adamantis4657 we see organs and instruments in the orthdox church. Women not covering their heads, liturgy in english and not greek, etc. and you hav changed. The orthdox church spit from the Roman Catholic Church. The orthdox church was NOT the original church. You say that the holy spirit did not proceed from the father and the son but we see the early church fathers saying this and we see the assumption of mary and her sinlessness in their writings. We are the original church.
dis00612 8 months ago
@dis00612: U and your "co-cathlics" are not honest - I often noticed that in discussions - do u think u honor God in promoting lies? U know who is the father of lying?
1.) Organs are strictyl forbidden in Holy Orthodoxy - the Holy Fathers have forbidden the use of instruments - go and study their writings.
EVERYONE WHO DOES USE ORGANS is indirectly UNDER ANATHEMA because the 7th Ecumenical Synods sets everyone under Anathema who sets aside any Tradition of the Holy Church
adamantis4657 8 months ago
@dis00612:
When u go to Russia - in whole Russia NOT EVEN ONE ORGAN. when u go to Serbia -----> NOT EVEN ONE ORGAN, I never EVER saw any ORGAN in Rumania, Ucraine, etc..
Only some greek mondernised parishes (which can hardly called "orthodox") have introduced them - ONLY TO COPY THE HETERODOX.
But those modernised parishes are not the "ORTHDOOX CHURCH" - and they have many orthodox people AGAINST THEM - those parishes are not orthodox and they should be dismissed immedialtly.
adamantis4657 8 months ago
@dis00612
2.) PEWS are stritctly forbidden and NO ORTHODOX used them for 2000 years! AGAIN only some modernised parishes started to use them too - IN WHOLE RUSSIA NO PEWS; IN WHOLE SERBIA NO PEWS; etc...
Pews are forbidden and everyone who used pews is indirectyl under ATNATHEMA because it is a part of the Holy Tradition to offer prayers while standing, bowing, prostrating, kneeling and not sitting like in theatre
Again those parishes can not be called orthodox!
adamantis4657 8 months ago
@dis00612
3.) In russia usually WOMEN WITHOUT HAIR COVER are not allowed even to enter the church. The Holy Apostles, the HOly Scripture, the Holy Fathers, Saints,....ordered that women have to cover their hair. Why do u think the Most Holy Mother of God is shown always with covered hair?
Again only in those modernised parishes (where ORHTODOXY IS SUFFERING AS THE ELDERS SAID) women do not cover their hair.
adamantis4657 8 months ago
@dis00612
4.) The catholic church split form the orthodox - and this is nota believe it is a FACT. The Holy Orthodox Church has kept faith - the catholic church set aside one tradition after the other! Instead of keeping faith - theiy introduce one new thing after the other.
5.) The Holy Fathers EXACTLY have said: that there is ONLY ONE CAUSE in the Trinity = FATHER. St. Gregory the author of the CREED says: THERE IS ONLY ONE SINGLE CAUSE IN THE TRINITY = The Father
adamantis4657 8 months ago
@dis00612: St. John of Damscus, St. Maximos the confessor, St. Dionysios the great = the ALL SAY EXACTLY that there is only ONE CAUSE in the TRINTIY = THE FATHER.
It was forbidden to add ANYTHING to the Holy CREED - EVERYONE WHO dares to add even a word is UNDER ANATHEMA.
The filioque destroys the harmony of the Trinity. The son is not the cause of the Spirit! The son SENTS the Holy Spirit to us and the Holy Spirit is called the spirit of the son but NO WHERE is said the Son is the CAUSE
adamantis4657 8 months ago
@dis00612:
6.) The Assumption of the Most Holy Theotokos - who has told u that we do not believe in the bodily Assumption of the the Most Holy Theotokos? Only because we have no "DOGMA" does not mean that we don not believe in. It is not common to procclaim "marian" Dogmas. That is a catholic creation...
BUT EVERY orthodox christian has to believe that She was assumned on the 3rd day with body and soul and spirit.
I think u need some informations!
adamantis4657 8 months ago
@dis00612:
7.) The sinlessness of the Most Holy Theotokos: AGAIN who has told u that fairy tale?
Of coruse the MOST HOLY THEOTOKOS is SINLESS: We call Her unceasingly: ALL- HOLY; MOST PURE; ALL-IMMACULATE; ALL-BLAMELESS; MOST HOLY; EVERBLESSED; GRACEFILLED; MOST GLORIOUS;
In some orthodox hymns She is called: God worthy, divine child .....etc...
The Immulate Conception is a very "catholic" Dogma - and we do not accept because we do not believe in "original stain" or original guilt
adamantis4657 8 months ago
@dis00612:
8.) NO u are not the original church - and that can be proven. Your church is a creation of the middle ages. Veneration of hearts, novenes, etc... NO ONE of the Holy Fathers ever wrote about.
Monastic orderes, Masses,.....NO ONE of the Holy Fathers ever mentioned such things......concert music for worship etc....
AGAIN it is ridiculous to say: The catholic is the original and the orthodox is not - LOL - that is really ridiculous!
adamantis4657 8 months ago
@dis00612: U can see how dangerous it is to be an ecumenist!
Catholics not only have introduced PEWS, ORGANS, INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC (even rock music - they are crazy) STATUES etc... they even dared to change the doctrine of the Holy Church. Even monasiticism ....everythings changed....
adamantis4657 8 months ago
@adamantis4657 Also, the early church fathers are NOT infallible!!!!!!
dis00612 8 months ago
@dis00612: Really, who told u that? Because St. Vincent of Lerin taught differently - the consensus patrum is the guide to truth!
All Synods, all decisions are based on the consensus patrum.
adamantis4657 8 months ago
This looks like one of those animatronic fortune telling machines, like from that Tom Hanks movie, "Big". Sorry I have nothing else to contribute to the usual 'scholarly debate.'
isophrenic 11 months ago
wow that looks like a fun night on the town.
isophrenic 11 months ago
I pray every day for reconciliation between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches. We've come pretty close a few times, and God willing we'll get there someday. Pope Benedict XVI has even gone as far as saying that filoque is no longer a dividing issue as far as he's concerned.
bitterclinger100 1 year ago
This is beautiful!
Bosman1745 1 year ago
Oh, and GOD BLESS MY ORTHODOX BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN CHRIST TOO!
LatinRiteChristian 1 year ago
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The Old Testament was written in Hebrew
inezaltar 1 year ago
Posting a Christian video is like creating an invitation to argue and bicker.
OramAndy 1 year ago
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She is hot and sexy wonna meet her gettop5.info
chamz137 1 year ago
Greets brothers
IC XC
NI KA
jivimome 1 year ago
Do you find a trusted wife gettop5.info
willieprl 1 year ago
I am a Roman Catholic, and these are our brothers unlike the Protestants.
mburns8395 1 year ago
@mburns8395 great
jivimome 1 year ago
@mburns8395 the protestants are also your brothers!
crazypimp4life 1 year ago
@crazypimp4life The Orthodox and Catholic Church are both in Apostolic succession. Whereas the Protestants are not.
mburns8395 1 year ago
i am ethiopian orthodox , good bless orhtodox ppl who serve him the right way . ppl other relgions followers be respectful for god.
tgloved 1 year ago
GOD IS LOVE!!!
IndomitableMan 1 year ago
DId Jesus or any of His disciples did any of this/?? or are they just old pagan rituals??? I dont understand what the guy is doing and i'm sure none of the people there do... Its a dead religion :( If u dont repent hell awaits u
dorinFeher 1 year ago
@dorinFeher - Yes, this is the way the early church worshipped. Take some time to read the writings of the early church fathers. The liturgy is based on Scripture and is very moving. The Orthodox Christian faith is anything but a dead religion. It's all about having an encounter with Christ. It's hard to understand what a service is like from watching a video. I encourage you to visit an Orthodox service to fully experience the worship.
emwcee 1 year ago
@emwcee well I read the Bible and I'm reading in it on a daily basis. What I read is not what I see here.... I never read someone light a candle or prayed to a saint and oviously the early church had no such buildings painted in all colours and with all those legends... The early church was persecuted and was powerfull ... There were signs and miracles happening and everybody could see God was with them ... U dont see this today ... kissing dead bones or prayng to saints is against the bible =(
dorinFeher 1 year ago
@dorinFeher hi kissing dead bones or praying to saints is against the bible =(....
Acts 19. vers 11-12
2 Kings Chapter 13 vers 20-21
2 Kings Chapter 02 vers 8-10
buddistdragon24 1 year ago
@dorinFeher Wow are you extremely rude or just plain retarded? No1 knows where any1 will go except for god himself. You are the one who should be repenting you HERETIC! In the old days they burnt ur kind, you should consider yourself lucky that you weren't born back then.
ekoado 1 year ago
@ekoado ahm actually I know where I am going ... do you know where you go?? If not repenting of this pagan rituals, superstitions and heretic thought ur not going to end well.. I suggest u read the bible a bit and then make a comparaison to what u see in the greek otrthodox church today.
what ortodox guy did was chance the names of the roman/greek gods into saints ... not very smart ... and added a lot of pagan stuff but lots what's unique about Christianity ...Jesus Christ our lord and saviour
dorinFeher 1 year ago
@dorinFeher lol you can't base everything on the bible, there is also the church and the holy tradition. The bible alone is like a blind man with binoculars, you need the church to give you vision before you can use the equipment (the bible). The reason why there are so many different protestant sects is because they all say: Bible is all I need! Every couple years a guy has a new interpretation of scriptures and so a new sect is created. There are literally 100s of denomations because of this.
ekoado 1 year ago
@dorinFeher Im judging based on ur comments that ur probably either an Evangelical/born again/pentecostal or a Baptist. Both of those denomination were the result of mixing Puritan beliefs with those of the Anabaptists. Now the reason why you guys stress the importance of the bible so much is because its ALL that you have. You don't have the church of old and you clearly don't have the old tradition since you are a new denomination. Read history my friend.
ekoado 1 year ago
@ekoado I'm just gona ask u something thatnshut up ... maybe u can answer me and clarify this ... Did the early church had the holy tradition or the church of old?? oviously not becase the church start at with the early church :) lol see what u say its senseless .. Also I din't find no passage in the Bible ... not even one telling me tradition is on the same level as the Bible ... Tradition is man made ... Biblie is given through the Holly Spirit to men..Jesus never prayed to a saint by theway
dorinFeher 1 year ago
@dorinFeher Lol what you said didn't make much sense....but here is what destroys EVERY Protestant denominations: a council meeting of early church fathers DECIDED which books belonged in the bible and which didn't (before this there were tens if not hundreds of different bibles). And this council was led by the early church which was the DIRECT precuror of the Catholic/Orthodox Churches (this was hundreds of years before the 11th century split) So this only leaves 3 options
ekoado 1 year ago
@ekoado so i still don't know ur answer what holly tradition did the early church respected???? when they decided which books were good and which were bad the church was already corupted with pagan rituals ... all those councils afterwards where councils of people who where far from the truth ... it all started after Constantin gave freedom to Christians when the world started to enter the church ;) plz spare me and read acts ...thats really the early church
dorinFeher 1 year ago
@dorinFeher Haha you do realize then that you can't trust your bible, because that bible was chosen by what you call the "corrupted church". What denomination are you? If you are protestant, you shouldn't have the balls to criticize the Catholic or Orthodox Churches which are far more likely to be true. You should either be Catholic, Orthodox, or not christian at all.
ekoado 1 year ago
@ekoado actually I see what u try to say and I find very stupid ... Why?? Way before the split when the council meet to agree on which books were good or bad there was no catholics or orthodox .. only christians... Now tell me why I shouldn't be able to trust that book as protestant?? DID catholics made it or orthodox?? Naa they only added a couple of books in the 14th century which of course we reject because theyr stupidities ..tales of dragons and stuff +a few chapters here and there (Daniel)
dorinFeher 1 year ago
@ekoado now when they decided which books were good and which ones were bad they kicked out apocryph books and kept the old testament and the actual writtings of the apostles .. which was good.. and guess what the bible they made then is the same as the King James version which has a different source...So book I trust is good .. Catholics and ortodox added to it stuff like tradition and other books later but who cares.. Now u got ur answer I hope plz post some more inteligent comments I'm no kid
dorinFeher 1 year ago
@dorinFeher no lol you have been completely brainwashed with bullshit (probably from fucking American missionaries). All of that is wrong, the Catholic and Orthodox churches NEVER added anything to do the bible. What you are talking abiut is seperate books which they considered some-what holy, which were tradition information and such. The church that created the bible was the DIRECT PREDESESSOR(what about that can't u UNDERSTAND) of the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
ekoado 1 year ago
@ekoado The old church if tracked through history records, is CLEARLY the predecessor of the Orthodox/Catholics. You clearly don't understand the history behind the bible. There were many gospels which were throught to be real by some that were left out. MANY. Infact the heretic gnostic created their own bible before the current 1 was made. Also, the Ethiopian and Assyrian churches have gospels which others dont have.
ekoado 1 year ago
@dorinFeher You are evangelical and you live in Romania? How dare you make the heart of Europa filthy with ur wicked perverted ways! The most epic and pure land is being defilled by your bullshit AMERICAN beliefs (evangelical religion started in America 100 years ago). You listen to the fat redneck American over the brilliant people in Europe! You fucking support George Bush that way! You traitor of Europa!
ekoado 1 year ago
@ekoado see now the true face of the true "Christian" is shown.My answer stays the same as before since its good enough and its truth .. no1 being able to say anything else unless lyng... Well thx God somebody woke up at least 100 ago and returned to the scriptures and to the true way... For your own info God is doing an amazing work in Romania with already about 800 000 pentecostals only, growing churches, holly spirit baptisms and all other accompanyng signs u can find in Mark's last verse =)
dorinFeher 1 year ago
@dorinFeher I can't believe that you believe the words of a stupid American (I live in America so I know what im talking about) over the words of a 2000 year-old ancient and wise organization. Pentecostalism is Christianity without all the epic and awesome things which make up Christianity. Only the negative things are present within it, such as damnation of others and "magic". And all pentecostals believe the world is 6000 years old.(thats NONSENSE)
ekoado 1 year ago
@ekoado lol do you really think that if this argument had any merit the Protestant Church would still exist? Or do you really think every Protestant has ignored an argument which invalidates their entire faith? Surely there is but one Protestant among the hundreds of millions of them that is smarter than you, yes?
OramAndy 1 year ago
@OramAndy Most of the world population are under-educated foolish masses. ESPECIALLY so the protestant populations. And out of those ESPECIALLY the pentecostals and Baptists. If anyone did a decent amount of research regarding the origins of Christianity (with an open mind), Protestantism would clearly be eliminated from the list of possibly correct religious beliefs.
ekoado 1 year ago
@ekoado Oh I see. Out of the hundreds of millions of Protestants, none of them have done any research on the bible. Especially not the hundreds of Protestant scholars who spent years going through tens of thousands of ancient biblical manuscripts to create the NIV Bible, and certainly no Protestant preacher has ever done research. Nope. Only you and the website in which you got your info are the only ones who've done research. Get out of here. There are people who are smater than you, you know.
OramAndy 1 year ago
@OramAndy Wow..ur really into making this a personal issue. If so, may I ask what is YOUR particular stance on the issue? Are YOU a protestant?
ekoado 1 year ago
@ekoado Argumentative logical fallacy: you failed to respond to the argument at hand. What I am is not important; I jumped into the argument because of the stupidity that was flying around. I don't mind what it is, be it Protestantism, Catholicism, or Eastern. They each have something to offer. Whether or not they are correct does not matter to me, I am just forced to jump in when bad arguments are being made, whether it's for or against any form of any religion.
OramAndy 1 year ago
@OramAndy I see. Well your point of "Out of the hundreds of millions of Protestants, none of them have done any research on the bible. Especially not the hundreds of Protestant scholars who spent years going through tens of thousands of ancient biblical manuscripts to create the NIV Bible, and certainly no Protestant preacher has ever done research" is explained by the fact that they put faith beyond reason. No matter how much evidence is shown to them, they fail to acknowledge it.
ekoado 1 year ago
@ekoado The first sensible you've said. Of course they put faith beyond reason. God (assuming for the argument God exists) is not rational, logical, or reasonable. Not by worldly logic. If there is a being such as God, He would not be bound by the laws of physics obviously. God cannot be disproven by any worldly science/logic. In the same manner He can't be proven thus either. If so, faith would be obsolete. All evidence has to come from the Bible, which is subject to interpretation and faith.
OramAndy 1 year ago
@OramAndy "First sensible you've said"- wow ur really into belittling people.
But anyways, you are wrong about all evidence coming from the bible. The bible is obsolete if you know the bigger history surrounding it. Bishops of the proto-orthodox church (the one that eventually split into Catholic and Orthodox) CHOSE which books should belong in the bible and which not. Not only this, but there were also serveral other completely different bibles, such as the gnostic bible which is oldest.
ekoado 1 year ago
@ekoado As a preacher once said to me: "God was sovereign enough to guide the Bible-makers in the choosing of the scripture that went in." The Bishops assembled the Bible, but they did not author it. The Bible still contains holy scriptures. Please, quit assuming you are smarter than hundreds of millions of people. Surely there is one Protestant that can disprove you.
OramAndy 1 year ago
@OramAndy That falls upon faith alone. You have to have FAITH that they were guided by a divine force. Anyways even if they were guided, that automatically disproves Protestantism. Because then protestants are using someone elses book (its the book of the Orthodox and Catholics). So who is right, the ones who wrote book, or the ones who can "properly" look at it. Protestantism is silly. It was created by Luther because he wanted higher authority and power. And you have too much faith in people.
ekoado 1 year ago
@ekoado You don't know about Protestantism. It's very similar to Catholicism, they just interpret the Bible differently, that's it. Your arguments are full of logical fallacies and factual errors, and frankly, I have no idea what you're talking about, and I'm not entirely sure you do either. Protestants believe in the death of Christ for Man, they believe in baptism, and follow the rest of the Bible to the dot. Protestants are Christians. Your entire argument is based off of a logical fallacy.
OramAndy 1 year ago
@OramAndy the Catholics WROTE THE BIBLE. Therefore they have to be right. It is THEIR book. Logical fallacies? All the things I've said are factual and can be easily proven (and most are common sense) Either Catholicism/Orthodoxy are correct or all of Christianity is false. You entered the argument all snot-nosed and selfrigheous, probably to get a fast ego boost. You are pathetic. Read a history book before you argue with the big boys.
ekoado 1 year ago
@ekoado The Jews wrote the Bible, including the New Testament. Jesus was Jewish. And it is the words of God and Jesus in the Bible; no Jew or Catholic wrote it. Those who assembled it didn't write any of it. Catholics can still misinterpret it. And history books get much of their information from that time period from the Bible. It's surprising, you've disproved Protestantism, how come this isn't world news? Oh, that's right, because it hasn't been disproven. How old are you?
OramAndy 1 year ago
@ekoado...The most obvious reason Protestantism is eliminated from the list of possibly correct religious beliefs is because it is 1,517 years removed from Christ. True Christianity goes way beyond being able to cite biblical verses. After all, the Christians of the first century had no NT to appeal to, but rather the devine guidance of APOSTOLIC TRADITION (2 Thessalonians 2:15). God bless all my Catholic and Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ! Pax Christi +
LatinRiteChristian 1 year ago
@dorinFeher these 3 options are: either the Catholic Church is true, or the Orthodox OR all of Christianity is wrong. You can't go around this, there is no fourth option. THERE IS NO FOURTH OPTION. Protestants use the bible which was affirmed and aproved by the precurors of the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Every protestant (be he pentecostal, methodist, baptist, presbyterian, or whatever else) uses a bible which DOES NOT belong to them. Protestantism is clearly wrong.
ekoado 1 year ago
Let the fruit of your life, the way you live a daily life in applying Gods word show and reveal to others your worship to God... JESUS!!!
Southaustraliahill 1 year ago
O miltidadkis Pappas den ksalei??
ApostolismalliasTTC 1 year ago
I hope some day I could worhip there as well!
merkomountain 1 year ago
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faeverwa 1 year ago
For anyone whose "church" was first established after October 31, 1517 please be a little more respectful of the Sacred Scriptures by not ripping out verses and placing them in isolation. BTW, do any of you Protestants know that not just the NT, but also the OT was written in Greek? Ever heard of the Septuagint? I think that one of my Orthodox brothers can legitimately teach you a history lesson as far as the Canon of Scripture goes.
LatinRiteChristian 1 year ago 21
@LatinRiteChristian
Garbage. The old testament was written in Hebrew and a bit of Aramaic. The Septuagint was a translation by Hellenized Jews for the benefit of those Jews who no longer spoke either Hebrew or Aramaic.
2411276 1 year ago
@LatinRiteChristian Khm. Te OT was written, actually, in Hebrew. The Septuagint is the translation of the Sacres Scriptures made by the Jews of Alexandria, according to the sacred tradition.
v79benno 1 year ago
@LatinRiteChristian I think most protestant churches teach that the Septuagint is somehow false.
bitterclinger100 1 year ago
@bitterclinger100...Well, I don't think they teach that the Septuagint is somehow false. What they teach is that those books included in the Septuagint known as the deuterocanonicals in the Catholic Bible are not inspired. Some Protestant Bibles actually do print these books but are explicitly placed in a section known as the Apocrypha, which could either mean "hidden" or "not inspired".
LatinRiteChristian 1 year ago
@LatinRiteChristian Thanks for clearing that up. It's basically what I meant but I used "false" instead of "uninspired" or"apocryphal". Either way, Protestants don't use it.
bitterclinger100 1 year ago
@LatinRiteChristian
As far as I know, the Septuaginta contained a Greek translation of the ancient Hebrew and Aramese texts of the OT. The NT was written in Greek, that's correct. I wonder why you write "Church" like you do, refering to the protestant churches. The protestant churches are as much churches as the orthodox and catholic ones.
optimatus 11 months ago
@optimatus...The protestant "churches" are not really churches. They are DENOMINATIONS that broke away from the western half of the one true Church known as Roman Catholicism. The eastern half of the one true Church is Greek Orthodoxy. The true Christian Church is ONE entity composed of these two different rites. Both of these rites are APOSTOLIC, and therefore, the true heirs and guardians of the deposit of faith. Anything outside of these two rites is man-made, watered down Christianity.
LatinRiteChristian 11 months ago
@LatinRiteChristian
The real Christian is the one who believes in Jesus Christ, our Lord, Who is our Saviour. The Christian sings the Apostolic Creed, the Creed of Niceae and the Creed of Athanasius. Every Church is a denomination. And thank God, we do not have to fear prosecution because of our religion here in Western Europe.
optimatus 11 months ago
@optimatus...Well brother, if you take one good look at history you will see that for 1,517 years the Church was ONE. After those first 1,517 years numerous denominations arose because they chose to follow the doctrines of men such as Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley, and John Knox, to name a few. Therefore, I implore you, study ecclesiastical history and you will come to the reality of the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC CHURCH. Pax Christi +
LatinRiteChristian 11 months ago
By the way, does it make any *sense* to anyone that God would want people to be mindless drones whose actions have no effect on their destiny? What a miserable world that would be.
One of the beauties of Orthodoxy (and Roman Catholicism, for that matter), is that it shares a deep philosophical connection with ancient Greek reason and logic. Faith without logic is meaningless.
nojyt 2 years ago 13
@nojyt I find it difficult to see how Greek Orthodoxy supports 'logic' when its masses are conducted in ancient greek, which even I (Greek speaker) cannot understand?
I don't mean this as an affront to your faith, just an observation.
Most people do not understand the ceremony or its subtlties.
SulfurCitizen 1 year ago
@SulfurCitizen: I should be clearer - I haven't been religious for a long time. As to your point, I am of the Greek diaspora (born and raised abroad), yet even I understand 75% of the liturgy. I find it hard to believe that anyone raised in Greece has trouble with it. It's not "ancient Greek", by the way, but "koine" - centuries younger than classical "ancient" Greek. Even so, I fail to see how the choice of language reflects the logical basis of the faith. You're talking about politics.
nojyt 1 year ago
@nojyt....You could not have said it better :) Peace be with you and God Bless You!
LatinRiteChristian 1 year ago 3
Let's see.... we can trust the new "academic" interpretations of the faith, or the original ones that have been carefully preserved for thousands of years despite outside influences.
To me, the choice is clear.
nojyt 2 years ago 5
ChristianTULIP, Brother, I could not get you to see the light on the 1st Four Revised Solas. But apparently, I did get you to see the light on the 5th Revised Sola because you actually changed your salvation tense from "Saved" to "Will Be Saved". That's good. Still, that means WE GOT A LOT OF WORK TO DO ON THE 1ST Four Solas. I must admit you Protestants are tough in the theological arena. Nevertheless, I will always welcome a good challenge. God bless you!
latinhooligan 2 years ago
This a common misunderstanding of the patristic traditions. Protestants believe that salvation consists of justification, santification and glorification. What does not require works is justification. So we are justified, but in a complete sense we will be saved. So we do believe that works are requisite for salvation but not justification.
drakeshelton 2 years ago
The "will be saved" is referring to all those whom God had planned to save before the foundation of the World (Eph1:4) who will receive their salvation in Gods due time. I am referring to the definitiveness of Salvation for God's Elect. In no way does it suggest that Salvation has to be earned in any way shape or form from the efforts, works or natural will of man. Salvation is the sole result of Grace Alone. We are saved by Grace through faith in the finished Works of Christ ALone.
ChristianTULIP 2 years ago
I grew up in a heretical, protestant, calvinist sect and it almost killed me. I was abused physically and mentally. Now, I am Orthodox and it has been the vehicle by which I have come from death to life!
Still, things aren't the protestant style prosperity gospel walk in the park that evangelicals talk about, but I am glad to be where I am. There's a purpose in my life that there was not before.
The Divine Liturgy is the most beautiful, important thing in my life!
CantorNikolaos 2 years ago
I'm Coptic Orthodox and I never heard this before and I LOVE IT i just love how you guys pray it is so beautiful although i don't understand it but still
Tuliplily325 2 years ago
"the heaven's EARTH" a piece of heaven jewelry
zaidajumean 2 years ago
Christian TULIP: You need to quit reading those Jack Chick comic booklets. You also need to quit reading anything by John Calvin because he deviated too much from the Septuagint which was the Holy Bible of the apostles. The Geneva Bible is hogwash. James 2:24
Minotaurus2 2 years ago
Thanks, Taiwan needs Orthodox church
lukas
davis491014 2 years ago
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itinerantOrthodox 2 years ago
asked if the elder all the people who came everyday with questions tired him. He answ: I'll tell you. When the discuss is spiritual it doesn't weary. It's bad when people ask altogether unreasonable questions. If they are illitr and ask such things it will be alright. But there are "smart" people, students, and they ask you what relation the time has with the consien of the person. In such cases I say, 'Here I have coffee and 1 or 2 aspirins. Sit a little and little we'll clear up your theme.
Colts4ever123 2 years ago
2) The Greek and Roman Churches are both APOSTATE. They used to be the same. Today both still violate the laws of God in the similar doctrines they hold and in the idolotrous ways they worship.
True Christianity is based on the 5 Solas:
1)SCRIPTURE ALONE is the only authority
2)People are justified by FAITH ALONE in
3)CHRIST ALONE
4)Faith comes by GRACE ALONE
5)Were saved for GODS GLORY ALONE
The Greek Evangelical Church is still faithful and the only Greek church anyone should worship at
ChristianTULIP 2 years ago
I have read Luther's Bondage of Will and other protestant stuff. You are not completely wrong.You have a great portion of the truth but Orthodoxy has the whole of the truth, You have not understood Orthodoxy that's why you write these things. Protestantism started as a movement to liberate men from the forensic spirit of Papism but sadly it ended up another form of Judaism. That's why you write such things about icons. No matter how pauline you try to sound, you are still captive to the old law
nomust 2 years ago
Nomust
Thank you now I will remain quiet you have wrapped it all up.
Orthodoxy Remains the one and only Truth !
Thank you brother !
Colts4ever123 2 years ago 2
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itinerantOrthodox 2 years ago
Firstly - The scriptures do teach the 5 Solas and secondly God gave his Church teachers for a reason - and that was to bring his people out of the darkness of the16th Century Roman Church and rediscover the truth of the first Century Apostolic teachings as found in the scriptures.
Learn about it? I used to be a Greek Orthodox. I've found that the Greek Evangelical Church is far more faithful to the teachings of Scriptures. They don't violate the second commandment by making images of God.
ChristianTULIP 2 years ago
God gave the Law to the Jews for certain reasons and when the hour came He gave His Son to the whole humankind. That Son, Jesus Christ, the incarnated Logos, is "the icon of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15) and His words are no more written in tablets but in the hearts of Christians. That basic truth of Christianity is manifested through the theology of the icon of the Orthodox Christian Church.
From the Law of God (Judaism) to the Icon of God (Christianity).
nomust 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Firstly - the scriptures do display the 5 Solas. God gave his church teachers to bring the scriptures back to the people at a time when the Med-evil Roman Church actually outlawed the common man to posess or read. If something was not written - then you should not assume that Christ taught it! I used yo be a Greek Orthodox - so I know what and how the church worships. Making an image of God and venerating it with kisses, candles, flowers is Idolatry and violation of the 2nd commandment. Obvious.
ChristianTULIP 2 years ago
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itinerantOrthodox 2 years ago
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itinerantOrthodox 2 years ago
ja ja ja ja you are very wrong
alfabeta3003 2 years ago
Brother, your 1st Four Solas only go halfway and the 5th Sola's tense is off. Here's the Catholic revision:
1) We uphold Scripture but recognize that AUTHORITY IS APOSTOLIC NOT BIBLICAL
2) We are Justified by Faith + Works
3) We believe that CHRIST ALONE atoned for our ETERNAL PENALTY. The Angels and Saints intercede and pray for us (Rev 5:8) in a TEMPORAL SENSE.
4) Faith comes by COOPERATION (free will) with God's Grace.
5) We -WILL BE SAVED- for GOD'S GLORY ALONE.
latinhooligan 2 years ago
You are in error. This False doctrine that keeps sinners in bondage to man made institiutions and the works of the Law for which Christ came to set his people from from:
1) Authority is Biblical. The Apostolic Age ceased with the death of the Apostle John. Today we find all authority in the completed cannon of Scripture. (2Tim3:15-17)
2) We are justified by FAITH ALONE in the finished work of Christ (Gal2:8). Works are a natural consequence of salvation - not a means to obtain it (Eph2:10)
ChristianTULIP 2 years ago
"Today we find all authority in the completed cannon of Scripture. (2Tim3:15-17) "
This is not Biblical, and 2 Tim 3:15 hardly suggests this. What that verse does say is "all Scripture is inspired", not "only Scripture is inspired." By the way, who formed the canon of Scripture?
"Works are a natural consequence of salvation - not a means to obtain it"
How can you reconcile this statement with James 2:24:
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
n8n8n8n8n8n8n8n8n8n8 2 years ago
Incorrect! Read verse 16. The scriptures are the inspired Word of God for a reason - to serve as the "authoritative standard" by which we rest our knowledge of God, Knowledge of ourselves, doctrines, Worship practices etc.:
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Any tradition or belief that fails to meet the Bibles standard - must be reproved, corrected or rejected.
ChristianTULIP 2 years ago
2) Who formed the Canon of scripture?
In essence - God Formed and brought together the Canon of Scripture working through men - Much the same way that God pre-determined the death of Jesus through the hands of sinners. God works his will through all men: whether they are saved, unsaved, reprobate, etc.
ChristianTULIP 2 years ago
3) James 2:24 is teaching that works are a natural consequence of true saving faith. If one posesses a true faith from God - it is one that naturally produces good fruits. The works are not a means to obtain salvation - but a natural consequence of being already born again (regenerated). If Faith does not naturally produce the works of God - then it is a "Dead Faith" of the unregenerate. If you believe that your works are necessary to obtain salvation - you do not posess a saving faith from God.
ChristianTULIP 2 years ago
James 2:24 is not saying works are simply a product of faith, but it explicitly says works are part of our justification and not faith alone. It even says works influence our faith, for example:
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" James 2:21-22
n8n8n8n8n8n8n8n8n8n8 2 years ago
3A) Incorrect! The scriptures teach that man is justified (declared righteous) by Saving faith Alone in the finished work of Christ - and that this faith is NOT a result of Works:
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.
ChristianTULIP 2 years ago
3B) James 2:21-22 is NOT teaching that Works create a mans "saving faith" - but that works outwardly PROVE (justify) that a man already has saving faith because saving faith is a "LIVE FAITH" that will naturally produce Works in opposition to a "DEAD FAITH":
James2:23 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness
Works did NOT Create Abrahams Belief in God - his works outwardly PROVED (justified) his belief in God.
ChristianTULIP 2 years ago
Equating justification to proof cannot work. James clearly says that works are not just proof, but are part of our salvation or justification. What you seem to imply is that we believe in works alone. Orthodox believe faith and works cannot be separated ie. faith alone or works alone would be impossible. Both affect one another. Good works cannot save us if they are done without faith, and faith cannot be strengthened without works. Both depend on one another to exist.
n8n8n8n8n8n8n8n8n8n8 2 years ago
Incorrect - Works are a natural product of Faith because much like Faith - Works are Predestined for God's people:
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ORDAINED that we should walk in them.
Works are not a required freewill prerequisite to earn salvation. Faith is Granted to God's people (Phillipians1:29) along with the natural production of Works---analogous to a fruit tree that actually bears fruits.
ChristianTULIP 2 years ago
Your religions theology is in bondage to a gospel of works because they teach that you must in some way: earn, merit and commit other required works to inistiate, maintain and close the deal on salvation. What they fail to understand is that salvation cannot be earned, It is all a product of sovereign grace alone. Faith, works and good works are simply a consequence of salvation - a manifestation of the regenerated sinner. These 3 consequences do not BRING ON salvation - they are the effect!
ChristianTULIP 2 years ago
Salvation is not earned through works. Salvation is only accomplished through communion with God, and this is not done without a struggle. It requires faith and works. Christ said we must take up our cross and follow Him. This is an act of faith and works and it must be ongoing. There is no point where salvation is earned and we can stop struggling.
n8n8n8n8n8n8n8n8n8n8 2 years ago
Correction - A salvation that does not rest 100% upon grace via faith in the finished works of Christ - but "requires" human efforts to initiate, maintain and complete salvation in addition to faith is a false gospel of Works. Christ did say that we must take up our cross - but he did not say "WHY" anyone would in Matt10. The reason why anyone would is because:
Philip1:29
For unto you IT IS GIVEN in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to SUFFER FOR HIS SAKE
ChristianTULIP 2 years ago