Opus 20 Modern Masterworks: John Cage - Part 1

[Hartcomposer]

This is great. A good definition of music is sonorous air, not organization of sound.

[Ugallardo]

This guy is insane.

[goldencricket]

Nietzsche would vomit.

[86marcus]

I am sorry, but this is not music. Music is the organization of sounds into form.  Bach, Mozart, Beethoven. Cage's sound are scary or they are the sounds of our planet, the sound of air, the sound of birds, etc, etc. We are listening all these sounds from day 1, music is the art of organizing these sounds. It bothers me that people call this music. It is not music, it is regular sounds from our daily life.

[Chatetris]

@86marcus huh I didn't know I heard moog type of sounds in my daily life? YOU might think it's music but if you say this isn't music then that means there is no such thing as music.

[CigaretteSmokingMann]

@86marcus hahahha this is the funniest thing i've recently read. you should be a music theoretican, really!

please.. just read some books about music, art, stop listening beethoven and then write "clever" comments.

[nobodady1]

@86marcus I think Cage would be OK if you did not call these sounds "music". What was important to him was listening to sounds, not naming them one thing or another. However, I think more is to be gained in considering these sounds as possible music, or suggestive of music, or as materials to made into music. Complementary to that, we can consider music returning to earth, if you will, becoming again, just sound.

[charmeueueur]

@86marcus I would suggest, take a score of Beethoven, of Bach, of Mozart and try to feel what are they talking about. You could find even "scarier" sounds into their works than in Cage.

[gregbboy619]

Ha ha cartoon's music! You the scenes where the cat follows the mouse but the mouse knows so he doesnt move yet but the cat notices him...nice!

[DarkZekeX]

I wish I could have met him :( Great composer, and he seemed like such a sweet man.

[Gargantupimp]

I think this music is very useful because after listening to this garbage any schoenberg or webern will sound fantastic, very good for opening public ears

[lovesGenet]

Logic? u can't prove much using that.Chance is as desirable as any other mode.There is no truth and science is another bogus mind game.See Logical Positivism and its death in the philosophy lectures in my channel.Every proof of a proof supposes its own truth in its design.

[Gargantupimp]

@lovesGenet i feel bad for you if you truly don't use your reason, when the only way you presume to dismiss logic and reason if through logic and reason lol

[adamsfunnyfilms]

right on. Straight to favorites !! *****

[lucky7monkey]

World's greatest troll. You will be missed, sir.

[ChicorelliC]

@lucky7monkey you are a very disrespectful individual

[lucky7monkey]

I am showing my respects to an individual who was talented in his craft. I do not see how I am being disrespectful... This man is truly an inspiration to every choice I make in my life. I do not even dare leave my house without consulting: What would the great Johnathon Cage do? (WWJD still really...)

[fmachadomaia]

i believe that music is like divinity: either you believe in it or you don't. Form, logic, standards, harmony or empathy are all subjective. To each it's own music so please don't try to impose your definition of music on other people.

although i am an acute atheist, i believe music is the way to understand life and in that matter, the hipothesis of deity...

[drseth00789]

so the purpose is to forsake pattern and formalism. Negate any form of communication and/or feeling offered by sounds. He seems to say that the orderly procession of sounds into something pleasing to the mind is merely a futile form of control. But if it is innately pleasing to do so, why question things put into pattern? play a soothing tune to a baby and it will sleep, play new york traffic and it will cry. Despite my skepticism tho, the man does seem to be onto something. Enlighten me pls.

[a3886]

i think the idea is just that sounds themselves have worth independent of music. like, by creating music we impose our psychology on it but by refusing to do that sound is freed to be a purely aesthetic experience, to in a sense be what it is. i don't think it was to say that creating music is futile, just that that was not what cage was interested in doing or hearing.

[ae52]

respekt jonh MASTER cage!

[komodiakarma]

"chance captured' and then put in a cage of composition! An interesting marriage!

[Leibo07]

Well, a fine docu.

[2kath51]

the point was, i think, that all sounds can be music. the sound of an old squeaky garage door opening, the sounds of an electric can opener, etc etc......it's all music!

[lorenzarthur91]

I don't think he thought that all sounds are music, but he enjoyed them as well. Once, he said (you can find the video on YouTube were he does), that hearing music is like someone's talking to him, while hearing traffic sounds is more like hearing the sound acting. "I love the activity of sound. I don't need sounds to talk to me." Or, easier, look at the beginning of this video: "I think everything in the world is interesting"

[2kath51]

my brother worked with cage and david tudor, yoko, et al. many years ago in nyc. i was much younger than my brother, but i remember how thrilled he was just to be in the presence of cage.

[russelbourbaki]

see SSulycqZH-U&feature=related

he said there that "music is the production of sounds"

[rascalrascal]

i don't like his ideas about using chance to create new variables . in the process of improvisation you can work within a limited/reinforced palette that is more 'honest' because we DO keep doing things that sound good. while working with that, any accident you encounter can be subsumed into a more listenable (and body movable) musical structure...

[robertronics]

what does the narrator say in minute 2:28???

"this ?????? work..."

help me please!

the point here is that everyone used to be sure aboout what music was, but after John cage, the definition has become too "broad" for some...

if a word is a sound, is a sound a word?

is music words? Judging by the way we listen to music, I can say yes, music is made of words...rather than sounds

Well, John Cage wanted to avoid this kind of listening

[rascalrascal]

there are separate processing centers for music and speech but an integration is created because of songs, the musicality of speech, other things. right now im trying to figure out why i have an impulse to plya music and it satisfies a lot of desires that it's not directly affecting...

[recorderfan]

this prudient work. i think it means conservative or something like that.

[Twothievesareme]

its not prudent, and his work is far from conservative. the word is protean. as in the greek shape changing god Proteus.

[recorderfan]

a prudent work, also means something that have been done carefully made, conservative. taking care of it... etc...

[Blackmofasa92]

protien?

[mrtyreman]

lmao

[Twothievesareme]

The word is protean, as refering to Proteus, a greek sea god who was capable of changing shape. here, protean is an adjective meaning versatile, or capable of assuming many forms. "This Proteus work. . ."

[renocorleone]

If you want to see a film based upon the rythms and the song "imaginery landscape 1 of J. Cage, have a look on my film FREE°LANGUAGE-STORY#1

[sporting4eva]

it's arguable if this is music or not... but the point is, there are people that actually like this... if so, let them hear it... if anyone doesn't like this at all ( like myself ;) ) then at least let the people that actually do enjoy it!

[polkapete]

dude needs to wash his hair, what a SLOB!!!

[alaksandra]

what about you!

[fl4vio]

He sad this and that. They treat this lazy freak like a messias...

[plumgreen]

the irony being that this is in fact the way jesus christ was also treated by the romans. as you describe it.

[pushdontpull1]

this is my favorite piece

[CookieDelPaso]

hahaha

[coubterfeit114]

I was told (in my Modern Classical Music class) that Cage was at first too poor to afford a percussionist. So he decided to be creative, and make his own percussion section by putting objects in the piano. Has anyone else heard this?

[iwanttowatchsomethin]

Yes. That is as he told it. --actually, he couldn't afford an orchestra.

[eltrentoro]

he was responsible for creating the percussion orchestra, because at the very beginning of his career, he couldn't afford to do anything but get the people in his apartment complex to bang on pots and pans and such...

[Ninjaphil24]

What I was taught in Conservatoire was that he was asked to play for dancers and there wasn't room for a percussion in the studio where they practiced, therefore the birth of prepared piano.

[iwanttowatchsomethin]

Actually, you are correct. It was a percussion orchestra that he couldn't afford.

[Mogggpiano]

Cage talked of setting sound free, but sound is already free, it's the harnessing of sound and giving it form that makes it music.

[iwanttowatchsomethin]

i think you are right. Sounds are already free, so to speak. It is our mind which limits what we hear. We are filtering information out, and magnifying other information in. Consciously attending to things changes how we perceive them. Likewise, manipulation of information is a manipulation of attention.

[robertojimenez204]

Lets face it man.....Anyone could do that. He was a genius in doing it, maybe not first, but when it was"new".

[thepokermyth]

i understand Cage's goal. To free music of its limits! its seriously a revelation because music is always played a certain way. certain scales, or structures. or progression, or style....this is the same argument pertaining to religion. Religions tries to hold God so God can become a shadow of man. But God with no limits, God with no form, that is the God to fear because He's unpredictable! I'm a Christian, but follow God, not the religion.

[revoltz7]

Lets stop beating around the bush. To anybody who likes Cage, answer me these questions: Why did Cage never write any tonal orchestral works? Was it because masterpieces such as The Planets suite, Swan Lake and Petrushka, were beneath him? Was it because he was such a genius, that he realised that music had become too conformed by society and tonality? Or was it simply that he couldn't even begin to write anything as beautiful and masterful? The answer is obvious.

[zackyzucky]

Cage lost interest in pursuing beauty like a stalker, or in beautifully arranging sounds. He decided that he would listen to everything and treat any disgust that this practice brought him as an opportunity to question his assumptions. Such a completely different practice from what Stravinsky or Holst or anyone you mention makes comparing them a little inappropriate. Probably Cage's work has more in common with other disciplines, and less with that of music. Yet he composed. Baffling.

[barelyaudible]

revoltz7...join the 21st century :)

[coubterfeit114]

or at least the 20th

[revoltz7]

If joining the 21st century means putting my talent aside, not bothering to study the art of real composition, not achieving my goal to write real, amazing symphonic music and instead finding an innovative way to make music out of steam kettles, then I'm staying put.

[iwanttowatchsomethin]

Well, you're in the 21st century. You've already succeeded. No need for you to do, or not do anything. A century is not a club to join or to hit others over the head with (forgive the pun.) Follow your muse. Don't worry about so-called progress. "Progress" is so 20th Centruy (LOL).

[Ninjaphil24]

You know, for someone who hates Cage, you sure seem to be watching and commenting a lot of his videos.

[AndyAlm]

I agree. Music has been improving technically and artistically since ancient times. It would be a shame to put thousands of years of innovation aside and digress back into noise.

[dopemunky]

What is the point of progress, especially into something as timeless as art.

[Triangleshower]

i think many of his songs (ex. string quartet in four parts, first construction in metal, the sonatas for prepared piano) are just as beautiful and emotion inducing as those you mentioned.

[gracesnotes]

I think he was a genius...And Whether you like his work or not..HE LIVED OUTSIDE THE BOX..HE Is one of my mentors of TRUSTING YOUR HIGHER SELF TO GUIDE YOU..EVEN THE STUFF YOU DON'T GET. YOU can't put cage in a cage. Isn't that the best...I worship this mind. I wish I had known him....!

[albul13]

Yes, I think he had nothing to say thats why hes experimenting with silence, mosern music ended long agowith stravinsky, rest is experimen and nonesense, thats right hes outside the box, because real music is in the box since history, this is for animals,

[AlexandrewPerson]

This isn't REAL music... it's FAKE music... It was never intended to create a beat that you can dance to or anything... it was never intended to convey a certain emotion... it was only ever intended to make us think outside of the box and to make us create and imagine our own emotions and ideas...

[iwanttowatchsomethin]

To me, this is a sad way to think about "real" music as inside the box. I don't understand this degree of conservatism, and it doesn't sound very interesting to me. How do you feel about other kinds of experiments -- in painting, in science, or in other realms of thought?

[albul13]

Music is the highest and king of all arts, everything has to make sense to me, music means to amuse, I.m not talking about other fields of experiments, when you say experiment it means it's not there yet, so this guy is experimenting and it will never move me as far as feeling, it's new mathematics for me. music has to bypass logic,

[iwanttowatchsomethin]

Does it seem a contradiction that you say everything must make sense to you on the one hand, and that music has to bypass logic on the other? You also say that after Stravinsky the rest is nonsense. I'm a little confused. Can you help me understand your position.

[albul13]

Unfortunately this is not even modern music, we shouldn't even talk about music when it comes to John Cage, It's interesting but not musically interesting. Music means to amuse, and that is harmonically undersandable, When it comes to modern orchestral true music, there is only four names that the world has accepted, and had no choice not to,

PROKOFIEV, SHOSTAKOVICH, STRAVINSKY, ARAM KHATCHATURIAN. and I think you are confused because you are excepting noise as opposed to music

[revoltz7]

Well said. Although these aren't the only great modern composers. I would put Holst on the list for his Planet's suite alone, plus there were some fantastic film composers during the hollywood golden age. Also John Williams' Star Wars score is a fantastic example of modern orchestral music. John Cage is a waste of time, and shouldn't even be mentioned in a musical conversation.

[albul13]

I agree with you Revoltz7, I.m totally with you on that. that he shouldn't be mentioned in a musical conversation. thank you for understanding what I was trying to accomplish.

[iwanttowatchsomethin]

leaving aside whether Cage's work is music or not, or modern music or not, or whether the cannon of 4 you offer must be accepted with or without choice, I am curious, since you say Cage is interesting, what you find interesting in either his work or his statements.

[TetrisAttack9]

The idea of music evolves. All music happens to be is organized noise. Harmonically amusing or not, Cage made music. You may not like it, but it is music.

[revoltz7]

Modern music didn't end with Stravinksy! Unfortunately, in the last 50 years, there has been a tendancy for people to adopt the attitude that nearly anyone can compose. This isn't true, and the result is we end up with such clichéd, banal trite as Hans Zimmer and co. The talent is still out there, just watch this space ;)

[jannokas85]

He was so unbelievably spiritual. "Giving sound the freedom to be itself"...some great spiritual teachings going on here.

[juansmdgp]

muchisimas gracias por el documental... es muy informativo...

[JackBlair2]

Cage - interesting because he challenged our notions of what a musical composition actually is.

That said, he was a total weenie.

[GolumTR]

It's kind of mean to name call a dead man.

However, If the mood strikes you to mock the dead BE OVER THE TOP!!! HE'S NOT GOING TO FIND YOU AND KICK YOUR ASS!

So,

John Cage was not a weenie; he was THE WEENIE, supreme lord of Vienna!

[michealdark]

I adore Cage. He opened my eyes to new possibilities and new styles. He lead me into early electronic music,which lead me to a greater appreciation of the genres that sprung from it(modern electronica,industrial,and noise music) as well as to atonal composition. On top of that,he also wrote some great pieces of not just art,but genuine music as well. "In a Landscape" is one of the most beautiful compositions of the 20th century.

[gpwitme]

Dis nigga stood tall back in his day. Much respect.

[veralisik]

Jeez, lourak, are you a professional Cage-basher?? 

" This is what prompted Schoenberg to say of Cage, that he was not a composer, but an inventor."

He referred to him as "an inventor - of genius." Why did you live that part out? Because it doesn't fit with your regressive world view?

[lourak]

Cage's genius is not the issue here whatsoever. We are discussing his status as a composer. Genius is simply not enough. All the same, the omission was not intentional. Check at one of the other posts that I made on cage at another clip - before this one - where I included the word.

[veralisik]

Lourak, I'm completely convinced you're a closet Cage lover - admit it! We've been over it. Still waiting for the Op. 110.

[lourak]

Well...uhmmm....uhhhh...Hmmm..­.

The 110 is coming soon - but don't get your hopes up. Nothing to write home about.

[lourak]

Part 2

This is the greatness of Man - to strain his cognitive and analytical powers and create synthesis. Yes, indeterminacy has its place, but must be subordinated to method, not the other way around. Otherwise, you don't have art - you have, merely, invention. This is what prompted Schoenberg to say of Cage, that he was not a composer, but an inventor.

[ladyghosthunter]

must be subordinated to method? are you arguing that cage had no method to speak of? do you argue that free jazz is a decidedly inferior form of music by the same token? categorizing his work in such a way in my mind does a disservice to the conceptual aspect of what he did... i always end up rolling my eyes when people try to define what is and isn't "art" anyway as it betrays your intellectual (ie. institutionalized white perspective) prejudice.

[lourak]

Part 1

Cage wanted his music to "imitate nature" (his words). But this is the way of the lazy and unschooled - leave that to nature (or God, if you will) who can do a better job at it. Our task is to organize and create formal structures that can serve as viable vehicles for logical creative processes.

[Roswellsounds]

I see your point, and, in some ways, I agree. But there is no method or "formal structures", only the idea of them. There is no "why". Logic is just a complex & interesting way to express total ignorance & nudity. All that we take for granted, all of our pretentious ideas & definitions... It all falls down at second sight.

The unschooled are always in the front line. They are not scared or domesticated/adoctrinated to try different ways of expression.

They go FORWARDS. Where? Up to you...

[lourak]

Thanks for responding! Your comments are provocative and beg for a response. With respect, however, I'll have to ask you to try and tighten up some your ideas and relate them more specifically to my comment. The subjects you raise

(the nature and utility of "form" and "structure" in art; the veracity of logical processes ; are quite broad and deserving of analysis, but

[lourak]

Part 1

Please ignore my previous comment - it was incomplete.

Thanks for responding! Your comments are provocative and beg for a response. With respect, however, I'll have to ask you to try and tighten up some of your ideas and relate them more specifically to my comment.

[lourak]

part 2

The subjects you raise(the nature and utility of "form" and "structure" in art; the veracity of logical processes; the psychological dynamics of social and artistic conformity)are quite broad and deserving of analysis, but hard to deal with in this forum. If you're interested, please look at my comments at some of the other Cage clips and you'll get a picture of where I stand on some of these issues. Type "John Cage Coca-cola" in your search field. We can take it from there. Be well!

[drseth00789]

forgive me, but could you please expound on that first part? It sounds like you are in analytical conflict. "formal structures" are ideas. composing is way of expressing them so that u and i may pick them up.

And logic is a means of going from one true statement to another. if u wind up being ignorant, then logic has not been used. a pretentious idea is not a logical one.

[spacegun]

Cool, do you have From Zero?

[DavidMJordan]

Thanks. A good summary.

[jazzer30]

thx! for so much!

[Sepharite]

Very cool documentary! Thanks so much!