Nice experiment, saves me some time in my experiments. Zero I have few questions:
1. If HHO cell was producing 2.5L/min would't it be sufficient to run motor just of the cell without gas? (other youtube videos were idling Geo Metro from 5L/min no gas)
2. Why using gasoline to run experiment when you could run any combustion engine with propane and regulate amount and measure flow of fuel entering your carb.
P.S. I ran lawnmower with just above 1L/min propane, so 2.5 L/min should be enough
you are helping everyone, please keep up the work. i think that your carb was dirty inside and needs to be cleaned. But if you can just mount an older adjustable carb and redo the experiment with fuel adjustments made to achieve proper run each time. you might have to do more tests per set up, to have confidence in the results. Leaning the mixture out after adding the HHO is where the savings will show. Thanx Clay
Fact: Stan Meyer used back emf from the alternator. Back emf is already known about it's just that in todays electronics it's grounded out. Jesus man I can't believe all of the negative comment's. No one here is an E.E. yet they all seem to know HHO will not work. Why do people do oil lobbyists job for them?
I seem to remember the law of conservation of energy, or is it just my imagination? This idea is just a way of storing energy not over-unity at all.
Less pollutants at the point of use but the same pollutants at the point of production.
Plus efficiency losses!
Even if the energy was produced, stored and transported from another planet, its unlikely that the cost would be recovered. Someone has to pay, sometime.
Concentrate efforts on making solar power more efficient,
You had the opportunity, even just for shits and giggles, to stop adding Petrol and just feed it pure HHO with the choke mainly closed. Why didn't you? You didn't even need a load present. I wanted to see how the engine would run on that. and before you say that it can't, then why not prove it empirically? I know it's an inefficient engine to start with, but damn.... Figure out the math AFTER.
but all that aside do you use sainless steel in your "electrolytic cells"? and if so do you encourage other to use stainless steel? never mind found all the info i needed from your websiite, EPA will be notifide! you morons, useing stainless in a "electrolytic cells makes chromite thats why the water turns yellow. its highly toxic, you cant even dump it down the sink it that illegal! if you wash it out you r poisoning your self and other, your worse then the oil companies, how can you sleep?
okay you got some things wrong, one its not HHO it H2 and O2, its not a fuel cell (a fuel cell converts H2 and O2 back in to water and heat and make electricity) its a "electrolytic cells" that is its true name back when some one thought about this over 100yrs ago. You can not run an ICE of H2 O2 that it makes. yes you can run one of it, but it can never make enough to keep it self running (and thats useing all its power just to make the H2 O2) its an energy storage device, it not fuel like gas.
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I watch all four videos, in the last one you explained why you where using the choke once the engine was up to temperature. I am surprised that there are no adjustment screws perhaps that is a sign of the times-the Idiot proofing to keeping people from suing the manufacture.
On such a carburetor the gasoline is drawn in by venturi/vacuum. Two things that I see that make this engine drive generator not a good candidate for what you were looking to test.
i had seen a patent where a fine mist of water was sprayed in with the hho essentialy making it a steam engine. just a thought . i will be experimenting on my own soon. keep up the good work
I have watched all 4 vids and from my understanding you are attempting to reduce the amount of gas being used by the engine with hho gas. using the choke is used primarily used to restrict the air flow. full choke initiates fuel flow for starting, and as the engine warms up the choke is fully open for max. efficiency of operation. what is needed is to adjust the fuel flow into the carb. via. fuel jet adjustment screw usually just under the throttle lever, and inject hho through air filter.
An engine of that size will be affected by the fact that the airfilter is missing. It will also be affected by the fact that you put the HHO hose into the air intake, thereby restricting the airflow somewhat like the choker will do. So you will have to put the airfilter back on, and inject the HHO without obstructing the airflow trough the carby. And the mixture has to be leaned by changing the nozzle so the engine runs smoothly with and without the HHO injected.. Great test by the way :-)
Are you still running an HHO generator on your Milan? If so, has the check engine light come on? I have a 2002 Windstar that I'd like to install an HHO generator in. Am concerned that with the laws here re: engine emissions I may have trouble getting this vehicle past emissions testing.
Energy is relevant across the board period. Creating more energy then is being used or even breaking even will never happen and people seem to forget this is not what we want. If you can generate your gas from solar/wind power and inject that into the engine, no matter how must loss you have it would still be a gain in output and a decrease from your wallet. This is the point we are trying to make. Not use less energy ,but to use less energy that costs money.
In other words, by changing your choke settings your not getting an accurate measurement of your HHO unit. Im all for the ideas of HHO but you need to apply more effort in creating more HO output.
more hho is not nessaserly better when not running 100% hho its not a fuel it justs makes it burn more efeciently so your wasteing battery if u make say 5lpm
may be wrong im notthe most inteligent 12 year old
With a Briggs and Stratton engine like the one youre using the choke is either full on or full off. Changing the amount of choke is making the unit use more or less fuel by leaning it out or making it rich. In flying we lean out the engine to save fuel and to ensure the engine is not overburdened with carbon build up.
Zero, have you thought of monitoring the exhaust gas temp for get optimum burn. If you tune the gen so that you get a constant EGT. and then add HHO and lean the motor till you get the same EGT you should get better results. Just a though good job with all your videos
I have. In fact, just prior to Waldorf I picked up the laser IR temp gauge on sale from my local Harbor Freight for only $28. It can measure up to 968*F. I plan to conduct these tests again just as you say with one exception. HHO in gasoline actually causes the ICE to run cooler. I will be tuning to run cooler with the HHO on and still be running considerably leaner than with straight gas. You'll see. It's quite amazing!
The other things is the magnetic and the back emf energy..plus wind, solar. static collection, naturely..circuits with aligator clips are just that as far as experimenting..aligators eat up the experiment.
Watched the video and was thinking..if you could store some of what goes in in hho..by check valving off the unit..during the compression stroke..sound like a lil..but times millions of strokes..or billions..might add a lot of down time for the unit...plus you might be getting leakage back thru the poor connection..just a observation.
if you add 10 alternators to that little engine and use the energy that all 10 alternators produce to power the HHO unit could you run the engine completely on HHO gas ? of coarse you would have to prime run the engine using a starting reserve of HHO gas to start it first....would it work you think?
Turning alternators takes mechanical HP. The higher the load, the more HP it takes. It's not free energy to just keep stacking alternators.
750 watts = 1HP. The 160 amp alternator I have can produce up to 2300 watts @14.5V. At full load it would take 2300/750 or 3.1HP assuming the alternator is 100% efficient. Reality is it's only about 70% efficient. Therefore the real HP needed to turn it at full load is 3.1/.7 or almost 4.5 HP. This would stall the 3HP engine.
First of all, you are too quick to pass judgment. AS I STATED REPEATEDLY IN THE VIDEOS, there is no run mixture adjustment on this carb. It runs too lean without a slight amount of choke. It is the only way to adjust the mixture short of using an entirely different carb.
I also found the same to be true of a smaller 1000 KVA Honda generator I'm tinkering with.
Yes they are. This was not intended to be a conclusive test, only a crude preliminary test in search of indications whether or not I should pursue it further. You will probably disagree and I have no objection to opposing viewpoints. This is why you will notice that I have not censored your remarks.
However, I do believe I have at least demonstrated that it is worth further investigation under more controlled conditions with more precise testing, and I am going to do just that.
So far, I am yet to see any tests done that would give me the inclination to build and test a system for myself. I am yet to be convinced running leaner settings with HHO is a safe thing to do. I'm also concerned about a few other things, one being people getting ripped off by some of the guys selling these systems. I hope you do some more tests and can demonstrate it's viability or lack off. But, for now I'll stick with my electric bicycle and keep putting vegetable oil in my Land Rover
What if you had a more fuel efficient electric generator? Some use a very inefficient gasoline engine. Maybe a Honda generator that uses less gasoline. Then have a better made Hydroxy generator with a higher Hydroxy and you might have a winner.
Am I mistaken ? or were you trying for a net gain? In that case the test showed a failure. Aside from this test but in the same neighborhood;what about using windpower to separate the gases and store the hydrogen for use in powering an internal combustion driven generator at a later date? Would the electrolizer operate at the variable voltages created by the wind generator?
What I showed is a near break even condition with known and rather excessive power conversion losses between the output pf the generator and input to the cell. Omit some of the power conversion steps and recover some of the lost heat energy from the exhaust in the form of electricity to supplement cell power and I think there will be a considerable net increase in overall system efficiency.
Is it a viable test to remove the gasoline completely and directly inject HHO as the primary combustable fuel in the generator? Although modifications to the current setup and most likely engine timing would be needed, I would much rather see that test.
Also, do you know the approximate cost difference between powering the generator with gasoline (gasoline consumption/cost of fuel) vs. HHO gas (water consumption/cost of water) based on, say, 5 minutes of generator use?
The jet is permanently pressed in to the casting. I was also thinking perhaps the float level may be too low. That also does not seem to be adjustable. They don't make it easy to tinker with these things.
The float "adjustment" on small engines is just bending the tang that the spring presses on. You gotta be careful with that though because it's easy to bend it too far. Drilling the jet is much less risky, but you gotta get some very closely sized drill bits, so there's a tradeoff.
The test is moot, you can change the properties of the engine by changing the fuel to air mixture, making the machine more efficient w/o the HHO. There is waste in inefficiency, , not all the fuel is burned. To have a conclusive test one needs to be able to measure the exact amount of fuel the generator "HAS" to have to sustain exact RPM's. Need a unit that only takes the amount of fuel it needs, not on a gravity feed, or vacume induction system.
I wasn't meaning to sound bad, I truly admire your dedication. I was just pointing out what I see, I don't know the best way to initiate a test, but am aware this test can't be accurate. But it certainly makes me think. Excellent work.
I understand the losses involved in the test set up, but this head-to-head comparison of gasoline vs. HHO supplemented shows that the only fuel savings are in leaning the gasoline AFR.
You can run an ICE at a far leaner AFR than the factory mangement and see large gains in efficiency, but only at the expense of higher NOX emmisions. I feel this is the root of any benefits we're seeing through HHO injection.
There are a few tests on internet showing that the CO emissions and the CO2 emissions are lower, and there is a higher emission on H2O... just google it.
Guys, I'm sorry but this experiment solidifies my skepticism in HHO for ICE supplementation. I have built a number of large cells myself and have followed ZeroFF almost from the beginning of his online videos.
To me, this proves that even a (relatively) large supply of HHO will not substantially increase efficiency of the ICE. The energy used for HHO production clearly outweighs the benefits.
a 75HP motor produces like 170.000KWh, adding a little of HHo you can add autonomy of like 40 to 80% to the ICE... this means a reduction of 20 to 40% of fuel just by using 200Wh (the potence needed to run the electrolyte)... you should research a little and do some maths before arguing...
I have come to the same conclusion. So you have to ask your self, will HHO help if the power that produces it does not come from the alternator? What if you got the HHO from the waste heat?
Surely the introducyion of HHO, is convering a pure combustion engine into a hybrid combustion/steam engine. Dalton's Law of Partial Pressures and the Rankine Cycle both apply in my view.
Why don't you conduct this test on a Car . The Hydrogen Cell was meant to operate on DC power , not AC. I dont know many people with painters lamps and floor heaters in their cars , not to mention a extention cord dragging behind . The design and materials used to build a cell are vitally important as well . Maybe you gas production takes time because of this . I've seen many cells start production instantly . I think GAS MILLEGE is the main reason for the Cell . TRY YOUR TESTS ON A CAR !
Quick question: would connecting the HHO cell directly to the AC output of the generator have any effect? Or would it just trip the generator's breaker?
I've never seen anyone doing HHO straight from AC, so I'm assuming it doesn't work very well! (not enough amps I assume)
Not at this slow frequency. Gas production takes time to get started once voltage is applied. Every time you switch polarity gas production slows to a stop then resumes and the other direction.
Keep up the great work. Wish you guys were down under in Australia so I could compare notes. I have a HHO cell in my old van and it is showing great promise with fuel economy. Approx 21% improvement but I had to take it out as we had a 40 deg C day and it boiled (never done that before) Maybe the electrolyte has become too concentrated as water is used. Amps went up past 28A. Going to add larger reservour and new electrolyte. I hear electrolyte becomes toxic what is best way to despose of it?
I have always pondered about HHO in a power source. I am using solar power currently now. I have to use a gen set for power too. With all the added load you create on the generator you have no gain means you consume more energy. Granted you put back some. Kinda reminds me of the perpetual machine. The HHO unit needs to produce more with less input in order to off set the power it consumes in the creating process. MIT used different metals to improve the process. But expensive metals.
meanwhile - back to a Spark Advance/Retard control handle on the steering column like Model-A Fords had. Try Retarding the Ignition Timing when your using HHO Gas and it will work better. :-) HHO burns 7X faster than Gasoline. Takes as much as 70 Degrees ATDC to make it work with a Load On.
I GOT YOU TO SAY HELLO TO ME WHILE DRIVING HOME. QUITE FANTASTIC TO HEAR YOU SAY HELLO TO ANDY IN MELBOURNE AUSTRALIA WHILE LIVE AND OVER 20,000 MILES AWAY.ANYWAY I SEEK CLARIFICATION ON A TEXT POSTED BY ANOTHER YOUTUBE PLAYER AND IT IS QUOTED VERBATIM BELOW
"Well, that's what it takes for coils to magnetize that fast. The ideal frequency for the water molecule is just slightly over 108Ghz. That is the natural resonant frequency of the water molecule
If i had just plugged an electric motor in to your generator and connected it to its crank, would I have had similar if not better results than your gas? It seems to me as though all your doing is re-cycling energy and not creating energy.
I'm thinking a small four wheeler motor. You can drive a car alternator easily. furthermore, if mounted on a stand, jetting changes are easy. Timing changes are slightly more difficult, but not terrible. You WILL prove our point to all of the non-believers if they will give it a chance
I would like to see that test performed differently. Although time consuming, changing jetting and timing would yield you much better results. I too experiment, though not at your level. I think you are way further along than the video shows. Unless the volume of HHO is significant enough to displace air intake there is going to be no real gain without jetting changes. The carb doesn't know the HHO is there. Other than sheer volume.
Zero, Kudos on your work. I am a die hard believer in your work. However, and I know you knew this was coming. Your generator really needs to be running properly. Any engine running on "choke" is going to use more fuel. The comparison needs to be apples to apples. Any engine has a required cfm to operate at a given rpm. When you apply choke you increase vacuum on the jet. Drawing more fuel. I would love to see tests of the same motor's fuel consumption on and off choke. Again, Kudos!!!!
The amount of air + HHO is controlled by the governor on the engine. It regulates the engine speed so the the AC output of the generator is at the right frequency. As the current/power draw on the generator increases the governor increases the air flow to maintain speed.
Replacing part of the air with HHO allow less air flow to be needed to maintain that same speed due to increased efficiency of combustion.
And the air flow meters the gasoline as used as FearTurtles mentioned.
How do you meter the fuel mixture without a needle valve on the carb? The gasoline/air ratio won't lean out without some kind of fuel adjustment between the float bowl and the top of the draw tube. Seems to me that without this advantage you would have no real change in gasoline usage. HHO will increase burn rate and run the engine smoother but if you want to gauge the gas savings than you have to decrease the mixture.
By restricking the amount of air flow you limit the amount of gas that is drawn into the cylinder. This is how most small engine carbs work. It is not ideal and could be a the reason this test did not preform better.
Sorry ! I don't understand english so well ! That's why i'm asking this: USUALLY HOW MUCH GASOLINE CONSUMS THAT ENGINE AND HOW MUCH DISTILLATED WATER CONSUMS IN YOU TEST?
I found this to be interesting. If HHO does contain 9.54 btu's per ltr and need to have be at 4% when mixed with air then you would need around 40 lpm of it in a 3.0 ltr engine just for it to run. Figure that engine gets only 15 mpg at 60 mpg. You would need about 120 lpm. Now at 15% gas efficiency that engine uses 1050 btu's to run per minute. 120 lpm of HHO contains 1145 btu's. So by the time you have enough hho to burn you come close to runing the engine on it alone. Provided its efficient.
the small orifice on the needle valve is restricting HHO gas flow too much. We don't need an area of high pressure at the caburator inlet we need to increase flow rate of gas. Choking the HHO stack forcing it to exit such a small orifice? Sometimes people even use vacume from engine to "pull" HHO gass from the cell. If you can increase gass flow rate efficiency can be even further.
This concern has been raised several times. Let me be clear.
The needle does not limit gas production. The HHO production remains constant at atmospheric pressure, under vacuum or under pressure. Pressure will build up inside the generator until it can push the HHO out of the needle valve at the same rate it would at atmospheric pressure. The use of a needle simply increases the velocity and directs the flow of the gases injected.
No one is claiming over unity. There is no such thing in the literal sense. What there IS is the harnessing of energy sources not previously harnessed because they were not yet discovered.
What we claim is something more than 18% total system efficiency. Still far under unity, just not quite THAT far.
Zero This is a little offsubject but I have hit everyone site that I trust and I haven't seen anything mentioned about using hho in turbo applications. I'm wanting to combine most of what I know as far as the mechanical end. But was woundering if someone has done some egt anylasis,at least on cylinder #5 which is the leanest on a sb chevy.Thanks,oh by the way I purposely bought a carburated truck so so fuel leaning can be controled mechanically ie jets rod so on
the only way to run this stuff on a turbo engine is to do it the rough and dangerous way of a draw through carb setup (like old'school 80's turbo engines) until there is so much gas being produced it can be injected under pressure, a draw through system is the only option
I really enjoy your vidios. I have not watched all of them yet but I'm sure I will. I have a question for you or anyone that sees this. I have a truck that is propane powered. Do you know how propane will react with HHO?
I can't see any problems with mixing the two. I have read that in doing so you can scorch the valves but the moisture would have a cooling effect which would go agianst that claim.
Bravo! Victory is for those who do not quit! Do the math? I say do the dollars.. HHO is cheaper than gas or diesel.. useing less of one or the other is saving ME money..Right on to you, bro!
I say do the math to get a better understanding of what is taking place. I can go out to my CJ7 and lean out the carborator and achieve better MPG only at the expence of burning the valves and pistons. Water vapor can save the valves and pistons so the question is does the small amount of hydrogen do anything? Hydrogen is a very interesting fuel I admit. But if you don't measure the effects of the moisture then you can't determine the benifits of the hydrogen. Unless proven by math.
On another note MR. Zero I know you've sanded your plates in one direction for production. If the edge theory is true about bubble formation what if you took a rougher grit and made the grooves deeper, making more of an edge?? Also what about using a car amp as a power supply to the cell?
LOL seems how Nuclear reactors are not common place for most people I think HHO is a fine way to presue this type of fuel. I do think it is important to use the heat created from these gens.
Way to go zero! I think this project demonstrates the amount of HHO required to make a difference. However, if you make a ratio of L/Min of gas to cubic inches of engine displacement we might have a better idea of the ratio needed for our cars. I suspect its more than we can reasonably produce. I was able to double my fuel mileage using water vapor and an EFIE; with power loss of course. HHO seemed to help give more pep. 5% btu value hydrogen to gas makes IT happen, but thats a lot!.
Let's do math given;Faraday's law Q(I*t)=F*m*z/F;Faraday's cont.F=96486,7C/mol 1mol=22.4liter,seek; how many Amps need for 1.5 l pure gas in 1min (rem. volume prop.H to O is 2/3H to 1/3Oxy) Cathode; 2(F)H+ gives -> 22.4 l(1mol) X(F) -> 1.0 l Hydrogen X(F)=0.0893*96486,7=8616 C Anode; 2O(2-) (req 4F) -> 22.4 l (1mol) 8616C -> X(O) X(O)=0,5 l of Oxy to get pure Hydrogen & Oxygen mix = 1,5 l in 60 sec need 8616/60 = 143,6 Amps :(( gee; correct me if wrong
Amps really is not the right unit to look at as it is not a unit of energy. Watt hours is the correct unit. I'm sure zero can give you the correct math here. Also what Zero and everyone else who dabbles in this does not make 100% purt 2H(2) +O2 Brown gas contains a lot of water vapor in it. Not sure what % but if you can see something raise out of the HHO gen then you are creating a good amount of moisture.
Do we know if this really helps? i was thinking about taking a bottle of hydrogen and a bottle of oxygen and combining their outputs through flow meters and a mixer and forcing a large volume of HHO than can be produced to prove efficiency increases or we are just wasting time. if it does increase efficiency then we just need to increase production reasonably.
Now thats a good idea. If you can run test starting at say,1lpm and increase it to find exactly where any improvement starts. It would be great to have his done on a Dino to measure the results. You really wouldn't need the O2.
WHat about efficiency of the generator itself. I believe your loads are to light. Your generator is optimzed to run at about 75% efficeintly. Like a car gets its best gas mpg at 65mph not slower or faster. I think your results are down in the mud. You need to increase HHO and Load.
Anything between 50%-75% should work. With my cars I find 45 - 60 to be the best driving speeds. This goes right along with my other post. I loved how Zero's demonstration shows it.
I don't think a lot of people realize what you're really trying to do because your name is a bit misleading.
The idea behind the testing is sound. Introducing hydrogen gas into a hydrocarbon fueled engine to improve the combustion process. Hydrogen ignites easier and the flame front travels faster. The boost in fuel efficiency would come primarily from the burning of what would otherwise be unburned hydrocarbon fuel (less fossil fuel, not zero :P ).
You might have a net gain of overall energy released from the system but you don't have any net gain in useful energy released from the system. I don't count heat energy lost from my cars radiator in my cars hp output because it doesn't make it go any faster.
Cars do not use all of the energy that is available at any given time. Example is with my F150 I get 16 mpg normally. The truck weighs 4500 lb. When I haul a 7000lb trailer it drops to 8 mpg at its worst. But I have a net gain of 2500lb that does not cost me anything. The load on the Alternator works much the same way. Sure at 1000 rpms you can hear a load but while driving it is really nothing. This Generator experiment is ideal because the IC runs at a fixed rpm and you can set a fixed load.
Has anyone tested the CO2 content of auto exhaust with an HHO gen assisting the gas/air mixture? It will elevate the CO2 levels dramatically as the carbon fuel burns more completely. Is this a greenhouse gas or is that hogwash?
Well done for your work, but there is an immutable law of physics to be overcome if "HHO" is to be a useful fuel: generating it with less energy than is liberated from its combustion. It just isn't possible. Ravi vanished when he found this out for himself after closely replicating the fraud Stan Meyer's work. Claims of "men in black" visiting, silencing him, after he was asked for input power figures. Meyer would not provide this info either, and was found guilty of fraud.
I appreciate and even welcome your skepticism. I too was a skeptic before I started researching all this. I stand by my statement that we are not violating any law of energy conservation made on the front page of my web site.
The Honda is being driven with real HHO supplementation to the HHO Games. Without HHO is has never made better that 39 MPG highway. I hope to have some iron clad results to report during my keynote address.
This theory only works if the % of Hydrogen is great enough to burn by itself. I'm not sure about the % with this Generator but a 3.0 V6 consumes 2100 lpm of air at 700 rpm's even 5 lpm of hydrogen will not ignite at that mix. You need just under 4% hydrogen to do that at 400-500 deg. I'm thinking that the improvement is do to the added moisture and not the HHO. Issues with the controls of this generator. A way to standardize the air flow is needed. Anyway Thank Zero for the demonstration
I look forward to seeing your next Test. 8) A 10hp ic consumes 900 Litre's of air running at 3600rpm's. The governer on the Generator should try to maintain that speed. So all you need to do is to pipe in the HHO. Same as running HHO on a carbed car engine. 2.5lpm of pure h2 mixed with 897.5lpm will still not burn. Thats only a .28% mixture. My money is still on the moisture. 8-p I will experiment with my gen. We can compair notes later. Thanks for the demonstration.
a common misconception when it comes to working out how much fuel is needed. at 2100LPM of air at 700rpm on your said 3.o V6 you are saying your engine requires 142.8LPM of unleaded... at 700rpm i might remind you. WRONG! a 4cylce engine only has 1 intake stroke (breath) per cylinder every 2ND crank rotation. So you 'could' multiply your displacement by 350rpm (700/2) but this is faulted since full displacement of each cylinder is only obtained at FULL THROTTLE..2bContinued
ok i did some sums and i come up with an amount of around 60-65mL/min of ULP at 750rpm for said engine. That is assuming 100percent volumetric efficeincy, under NO vaccum, which when at idle is far from the figures i have posted.
the math here is wrong. a 3.0 v6 will consume much less at idle, MUCH less. this is a 4 stroke engine so you dived the displacement in half, times 1/2 displacement by the rpm, divide that number by the percentage of throttle. Most gas engine run at 15% throttle at idle. for a 3lt v6 the fuel needed is about 157.5 lpm. H2O will burn great at 30:1 so, 157.5/ 30 = 5.25. you would need 5.25 lpm of H2O to run this machine at idle or 10.64 lpm of atomized gasoline.
like i said, 65ml/min @100%throttle, so obviously it would be less then that. You say 15percent throttle at idle, if thats the case, say 1/6 of the figure i gave, which makes 11mL/min. DOes that sound better? where did you get the 15percent throttle@idle? I think you need to go back over your figures, as i read what you said i quote "...the fuel needed is about 157LPM" Umm how big is your fuel tank. you do realise LPM stands for Litres per minute? you realise HHO is not pure hydrogen?
WOW Think about this. 2.5 lpm of HHO and at best a 7% gain. People make the 30% gain on cars with just 1 lpm. What gives? Zero I would be completely disappointed. It's nice to hear the engine run better and these video's do bring up a good point that a HHO gen really does not consume any additional gas as car engines are underused as is. Maybe the result would improve if you didn't use a air needle to inject the hho.
Zero. For our bench testing, we use a 1/2 HP electric motor that drives a car alternator that charges a 12V battery. This provides a steady 14.5V DC from the alternator through the battery to power our HHO test devices on the bench.
Also, the EFI in an automobile receives micro pulses from the ECU (car computer). With 6 or 8 cylinders, there is quite a bit more fuel consumption than a 11HP engine. Beating the ECU through hacking sensors or 3rd party "black boxes" is the next challenge.
good stuff z.and to all the disbelievers to take it to a dealership for test.PLEASE!!this man is doing ALL the test needed and more.he has posted #134 clips of them with all the data for ALL to see.you should watch them all before you comment.IDIOTS, do you need the definition too?just go somewhere else and play.
Another interested demonstration would be to lean the mixture as low as possible without killing the generator motor, with HHO. Then turn off the HHO into the generator, and see if the engine dies.
Could you improve the accuracy of this simulation by rigging a car alternator to be driven by the generator, and then power the HHO cell from the alternator? Great work as usual ZFF!
Why not skip the generator and run a small mower motor with belt drive running a car alternator? Then you'll have the electrical power you need without the power supply, and the power to run the car alternator may be less than what the generator requires.
You talked about doing better from a battery. Some suggest putting on a second alternator and wiring into the three phase behind the diodes and passing through a capacitor for current limiting then rectifying the power and passing through a long series cell 52 plates. Simple cheap pulsed power and high efficiency cells... Just a thought...
I'm impressed to what you have done. Can you post your wattage consuption of the PS vs the wattage consuption of the PWM I-Reg?
Also, does your generator have a direct 12 volt tap? This would be more like that you would find in an automobile. Your current numbers show you about 98% effecient, but you are on a medium load.
zzf, why don't you approach the big 3 or big 2 car company and offer your services to R&D a system using HHO exclusively for a say a 4 door 2 litre saloon car? according to one of your videos, you mentioned you live in Chicago? that would be near GM no?
at least you would get a bigger budget and you could have more peers to discuss your work :) last but not least you can spend ALL your working time on it!! super!
Radrman01200 you really crack me up (I always get a kick out of closed-minded people)... After watching these entire generator test videos how can anyone say there is no possible way that an I.C.E. doesnt get at least some benefit from HHO. I agree there are a lot of outrageous claims out there but you will not find them here.
im sure your aware the most noticable difference would bt made using an engine tuned and running as efficently as possible. These generators would be notoriously bad on fuel since they would be designed to run for prolonged periods and are air cooled thus requiring a colder burn by running richer then stoich. Maybe try this with a deisel generator as air/fuel ratio would be vastly higher meaning your overall HHO input equates to a higher percentage of fuel input?
I do think you can bet better results with a diesel motor. A company in FortWorth (name escapes me just now) was using large hho cells and water injection to run 50 wk generators on half the fuel as before and claimed to be able to go as lean as only 10% fuel, but pinging was a problem. I visited their shop and they ran these monster generators indoors and there was no smoke or odor of any kind. They drove a diesel truck using the same system with a quart sized glass fuel tank on the dash.
Yes, there are still many unanswered questions. I'd do you plan to test with different loads. However, in a car, the amount of HHO required is substantially greater than my small generator. Systems that we have now barely create enough HHO to supplement at anything butt very light engine loads such as cruising at highway speeds. It is not until we start generating twenty, 30, or more liters per minute that we must worry about regulating the HHO with throttle position and engine load.
Wheres the proof that this is so? What properties does HHO have. Hydrogen? Oxygen? How does two basic elements compliment a complex hydrocarbons combustion process? That is a big piece of information left out of your "math". All i see is you making the math "fit" what you want it to do. Show HOW the hho compliments the gas and translates to more energy output.
"HHO as an additive does more than return 85% of the energy we put in to create it. It's properties enhance the slow burning gasoline, speeding up the rate of combustion, causing much more of the total combustion process to be translated into mechanical energy rather than being lost as waste heat out the tail pipe, raising the efficiency of the total system."....
Thanks for doing this test. Ive been spouting this test for a few months. I'm gald to see someone try it, and record it. I think your results may be a bit more positive with less than 0.75LPM HHO.
My access to a generator went south for hurrcane relief work and is still there:(
You said you had 2 LPM output, How did you determine the LPM output? Is there some benifit to raising the pressure of your HHO system and is that why you used the small orifice needle.?
I have seen generators with a 12vdc out.I wonder if you can try this type of generator and eliminate the power supply thus eleminating the pass transistors and heat loss. okr maybe you can get hold of a swithing supply which is more efficient. good experimenting and keep it up.
Others have told me about this too. I'm guessing they're battery start models and add the 12V out as a convenience because it's already there anyway charging the battery.
Would it be possible to rig a car alternator onto the generator to power your HHO Cell? In that way, you would more closely simulate the environment present in a car.
So was Gates(microsoft)doing his work in his garage, but we have big competitors like Exxon, Mobil, etc. They are the Mafia and we will not have a chance to put the product on the market,Capisci? Remmember that guy with a freq generator and salty water making the water burn, Capisci? that is free energy
Gates in his garage is not a similarity. He worked at IBM along with Steve Jobs(Apple) and they were writing code which turned out to be MS DOS. Far Far cry from bad science that this hho is.
How is that free energy when it takes energy input from the frequency generator to do that. Think about what you say before you type. Your statements will make much more sense. Plus, don't assume ppl will just take what you say as truth. I won't. "show me the money"
Read, UNDERSTAND, reread as many times as is necessary until you DO understand (if that's at all possible) the 'Simple Math for Experts' on the very front page of my web site. It's valid. I just proved it.
Else retreat into that hole you crawled out of and wallow in your ignorance.
Hey Zero longggg time I did not chime in. As far as your comment "I don't have a battery charger big enough" Have you ever tried to use the Astron PS as a charger?
Last week my car had a dead 3 year old battery, (click click click chatter of the soleniod level dead) I only have a old 6 amp charger and needed to get my butt on the road fast. Put my 20 amp Astron on it for about 20-30 minutes. The car fired right up, it turned out to be a dam good sub to a dedicated charger.
Nice experiment, saves me some time in my experiments. Zero I have few questions:
1. If HHO cell was producing 2.5L/min would't it be sufficient to run motor just of the cell without gas? (other youtube videos were idling Geo Metro from 5L/min no gas)
2. Why using gasoline to run experiment when you could run any combustion engine with propane and regulate amount and measure flow of fuel entering your carb.
P.S. I ran lawnmower with just above 1L/min propane, so 2.5 L/min should be enough
Vitos1980 4 weeks ago
get the next size jet for the carb. Or drill it out.
Very nice analysis!
Thanks
a2zhandi 7 months ago
you are helping everyone, please keep up the work. i think that your carb was dirty inside and needs to be cleaned. But if you can just mount an older adjustable carb and redo the experiment with fuel adjustments made to achieve proper run each time. you might have to do more tests per set up, to have confidence in the results. Leaning the mixture out after adding the HHO is where the savings will show. Thanx Clay
aaaflooddrying 7 months ago
Fact: Stan Meyer used back emf from the alternator. Back emf is already known about it's just that in todays electronics it's grounded out. Jesus man I can't believe all of the negative comment's. No one here is an E.E. yet they all seem to know HHO will not work. Why do people do oil lobbyists job for them?
MightyZarkon 9 months ago
Read to end.
I laud your efforts but I do not see where the free energy comes from. It reminds me of the perpetual motion idea. .
I don't want to disparage your efforts but this seems very April's Fool.
How much energy is required to make H and O?
What are the losses?
If you could use Solar to perform the electrolysis and store it you'd be getting somewhere real. I respect U, and would like a cogent reply.
paddibaldi 9 months ago
Thank you Sir! Your attitude and thirst for knowledge are an inspiration to many.
lectric2010 9 months ago
But, I digress from my original thought, reproducibility and repeatability, atmospheric changes, calibration........................
This is a middle school effort. The choke thing is an issue. What color was the plug running at? Light or dark indicates how well its burning.
Food for thought but the physics as we know it doesn't stack up.
paddibaldi 10 months ago
I seem to remember the law of conservation of energy, or is it just my imagination? This idea is just a way of storing energy not over-unity at all.
Less pollutants at the point of use but the same pollutants at the point of production.
Plus efficiency losses!
Even if the energy was produced, stored and transported from another planet, its unlikely that the cost would be recovered. Someone has to pay, sometime.
Concentrate efforts on making solar power more efficient,
ENTROPY RULES!
paddibaldi 10 months ago
@paddibaldi "Someone has to pay, sometime" Do you pay for the "air" you breathe?
lectric2010 9 months ago
Thank your for performing this test. You have answered many of the questions that I have had and now I am more excited to work on my project.
BTW - You did a fantastic job with the video. I wish everyone used a mic and tripod. I get dizzy from so much camera shaking. Good narration, too.
reizac926 10 months ago
You had the opportunity, even just for shits and giggles, to stop adding Petrol and just feed it pure HHO with the choke mainly closed. Why didn't you? You didn't even need a load present. I wanted to see how the engine would run on that. and before you say that it can't, then why not prove it empirically? I know it's an inefficient engine to start with, but damn.... Figure out the math AFTER.
TheNavitas 11 months ago
but all that aside do you use sainless steel in your "electrolytic cells"? and if so do you encourage other to use stainless steel? never mind found all the info i needed from your websiite, EPA will be notifide! you morons, useing stainless in a "electrolytic cells makes chromite thats why the water turns yellow. its highly toxic, you cant even dump it down the sink it that illegal! if you wash it out you r poisoning your self and other, your worse then the oil companies, how can you sleep?
1crazyfocker 11 months ago
okay you got some things wrong, one its not HHO it H2 and O2, its not a fuel cell (a fuel cell converts H2 and O2 back in to water and heat and make electricity) its a "electrolytic cells" that is its true name back when some one thought about this over 100yrs ago. You can not run an ICE of H2 O2 that it makes. yes you can run one of it, but it can never make enough to keep it self running (and thats useing all its power just to make the H2 O2) its an energy storage device, it not fuel like gas.
1crazyfocker 11 months ago
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svyaznoybnk 11 months ago
throttle rpm must match with gas alone and gas plus hho...you consume more gas at higher rpm with hho...redu test
manwar999 1 year ago
@manwar999 Yeah. I'll get right on that. JUST for you.
ZeroFossilFuel 1 year ago
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dharmastipulate 1 year ago
I watch all four videos, in the last one you explained why you where using the choke once the engine was up to temperature. I am surprised that there are no adjustment screws perhaps that is a sign of the times-the Idiot proofing to keeping people from suing the manufacture.
On such a carburetor the gasoline is drawn in by venturi/vacuum. Two things that I see that make this engine drive generator not a good candidate for what you were looking to test.
McRaybia 1 year ago
@McRaybia All newer carbs are fixed to meet EPA requirements. The reason I needed to add choke is because the gas was old.
ZeroFossilFuel 1 year ago
i had seen a patent where a fine mist of water was sprayed in with the hho essentialy making it a steam engine. just a thought . i will be experimenting on my own soon. keep up the good work
SuperSoulsearching 1 year ago
I have watched all 4 vids and from my understanding you are attempting to reduce the amount of gas being used by the engine with hho gas. using the choke is used primarily used to restrict the air flow. full choke initiates fuel flow for starting, and as the engine warms up the choke is fully open for max. efficiency of operation. what is needed is to adjust the fuel flow into the carb. via. fuel jet adjustment screw usually just under the throttle lever, and inject hho through air filter.
pinicle544 2 years ago
cute mic
MrFubs 2 years ago
An engine of that size will be affected by the fact that the airfilter is missing. It will also be affected by the fact that you put the HHO hose into the air intake, thereby restricting the airflow somewhat like the choker will do. So you will have to put the airfilter back on, and inject the HHO without obstructing the airflow trough the carby. And the mixture has to be leaned by changing the nozzle so the engine runs smoothly with and without the HHO injected.. Great test by the way :-)
5p1cc 2 years ago
Zero,
Are you still running an HHO generator on your Milan? If so, has the check engine light come on? I have a 2002 Windstar that I'd like to install an HHO generator in. Am concerned that with the laws here re: engine emissions I may have trouble getting this vehicle past emissions testing.
Thanks for your help.
Rob
IamtheKingsman 2 years ago
Energy is relevant across the board period. Creating more energy then is being used or even breaking even will never happen and people seem to forget this is not what we want. If you can generate your gas from solar/wind power and inject that into the engine, no matter how must loss you have it would still be a gain in output and a decrease from your wallet. This is the point we are trying to make. Not use less energy ,but to use less energy that costs money.
SaysJim 2 years ago
In other words, by changing your choke settings your not getting an accurate measurement of your HHO unit. Im all for the ideas of HHO but you need to apply more effort in creating more HO output.
winterocks 2 years ago
more hho is not nessaserly better when not running 100% hho its not a fuel it justs makes it burn more efeciently so your wasteing battery if u make say 5lpm
may be wrong im notthe most inteligent 12 year old
loweylegend 2 years ago
With a Briggs and Stratton engine like the one youre using the choke is either full on or full off. Changing the amount of choke is making the unit use more or less fuel by leaning it out or making it rich. In flying we lean out the engine to save fuel and to ensure the engine is not overburdened with carbon build up.
winterocks 2 years ago
Zero, have you thought of monitoring the exhaust gas temp for get optimum burn. If you tune the gen so that you get a constant EGT. and then add HHO and lean the motor till you get the same EGT you should get better results. Just a though good job with all your videos
rstuartf 2 years ago
I have. In fact, just prior to Waldorf I picked up the laser IR temp gauge on sale from my local Harbor Freight for only $28. It can measure up to 968*F. I plan to conduct these tests again just as you say with one exception. HHO in gasoline actually causes the ICE to run cooler. I will be tuning to run cooler with the HHO on and still be running considerably leaner than with straight gas. You'll see. It's quite amazing!
ZeroFossilFuel 2 years ago
praise to all you guys for your hard work and great thinking keep it up love your vidios give me more !
vfford 2 years ago
The other things is the magnetic and the back emf energy..plus wind, solar. static collection, naturely..circuits with aligator clips are just that as far as experimenting..aligators eat up the experiment.
plumberdaniel 2 years ago
Watched the video and was thinking..if you could store some of what goes in in hho..by check valving off the unit..during the compression stroke..sound like a lil..but times millions of strokes..or billions..might add a lot of down time for the unit...plus you might be getting leakage back thru the poor connection..just a observation.
plumberdaniel 2 years ago
if you add 10 alternators to that little engine and use the energy that all 10 alternators produce to power the HHO unit could you run the engine completely on HHO gas ? of coarse you would have to prime run the engine using a starting reserve of HHO gas to start it first....would it work you think?
Domtheredhead 2 years ago
Turning alternators takes mechanical HP. The higher the load, the more HP it takes. It's not free energy to just keep stacking alternators.
750 watts = 1HP. The 160 amp alternator I have can produce up to 2300 watts @14.5V. At full load it would take 2300/750 or 3.1HP assuming the alternator is 100% efficient. Reality is it's only about 70% efficient. Therefore the real HP needed to turn it at full load is 3.1/.7 or almost 4.5 HP. This would stall the 3HP engine.
ZeroFossilFuel 2 years ago
It's disappointing you didn't do the test when the carby was set properly for gasoline and the choke was not fiddled with.
UbeefHooked 2 years ago
First of all, you are too quick to pass judgment. AS I STATED REPEATEDLY IN THE VIDEOS, there is no run mixture adjustment on this carb. It runs too lean without a slight amount of choke. It is the only way to adjust the mixture short of using an entirely different carb.
I also found the same to be true of a smaller 1000 KVA Honda generator I'm tinkering with.
ZeroFossilFuel 2 years ago
Your results are flawed
UbeefHooked 2 years ago
Yes they are. This was not intended to be a conclusive test, only a crude preliminary test in search of indications whether or not I should pursue it further. You will probably disagree and I have no objection to opposing viewpoints. This is why you will notice that I have not censored your remarks.
However, I do believe I have at least demonstrated that it is worth further investigation under more controlled conditions with more precise testing, and I am going to do just that.
Enjoy the show.
ZeroFossilFuel 2 years ago
So far, I am yet to see any tests done that would give me the inclination to build and test a system for myself. I am yet to be convinced running leaner settings with HHO is a safe thing to do. I'm also concerned about a few other things, one being people getting ripped off by some of the guys selling these systems. I hope you do some more tests and can demonstrate it's viability or lack off. But, for now I'll stick with my electric bicycle and keep putting vegetable oil in my Land Rover
UbeefHooked 2 years ago
Running lean without HHO causes temps to spike very high. With HHO the opposite is true. I will be demonstrating this with a EGT gauge.
And I certainly can't knock you for your present efforts to ween away from gasoline. I am all for the EV and use of waste products for fuel.
Honest skepticism like yours is refreshing. Don't ever change. Question everything. I do.
ZeroFossilFuel 2 years ago
What if you had a more fuel efficient electric generator? Some use a very inefficient gasoline engine. Maybe a Honda generator that uses less gasoline. Then have a better made Hydroxy generator with a higher Hydroxy and you might have a winner.
moffett8 2 years ago
Am I mistaken ? or were you trying for a net gain? In that case the test showed a failure. Aside from this test but in the same neighborhood;what about using windpower to separate the gases and store the hydrogen for use in powering an internal combustion driven generator at a later date? Would the electrolizer operate at the variable voltages created by the wind generator?
dhlacey 2 years ago
What I showed is a near break even condition with known and rather excessive power conversion losses between the output pf the generator and input to the cell. Omit some of the power conversion steps and recover some of the lost heat energy from the exhaust in the form of electricity to supplement cell power and I think there will be a considerable net increase in overall system efficiency.
ZeroFossilFuel 2 years ago
Is it a viable test to remove the gasoline completely and directly inject HHO as the primary combustable fuel in the generator? Although modifications to the current setup and most likely engine timing would be needed, I would much rather see that test.
Also, do you know the approximate cost difference between powering the generator with gasoline (gasoline consumption/cost of fuel) vs. HHO gas (water consumption/cost of water) based on, say, 5 minutes of generator use?
PhatMackn02 2 years ago
If it runs lean, you can drill out the jet a little at a time until it runs right.
TheLightningStalker 2 years ago
The jet is permanently pressed in to the casting. I was also thinking perhaps the float level may be too low. That also does not seem to be adjustable. They don't make it easy to tinker with these things.
ZeroFossilFuel 2 years ago
The float "adjustment" on small engines is just bending the tang that the spring presses on. You gotta be careful with that though because it's easy to bend it too far. Drilling the jet is much less risky, but you gotta get some very closely sized drill bits, so there's a tradeoff.
TheLightningStalker 2 years ago
The test is moot, you can change the properties of the engine by changing the fuel to air mixture, making the machine more efficient w/o the HHO. There is waste in inefficiency, , not all the fuel is burned. To have a conclusive test one needs to be able to measure the exact amount of fuel the generator "HAS" to have to sustain exact RPM's. Need a unit that only takes the amount of fuel it needs, not on a gravity feed, or vacume induction system.
issmech 2 years ago
Show us.
ZeroFossilFuel 2 years ago
I wasn't meaning to sound bad, I truly admire your dedication. I was just pointing out what I see, I don't know the best way to initiate a test, but am aware this test can't be accurate. But it certainly makes me think. Excellent work.
issmech 2 years ago
I understand the losses involved in the test set up, but this head-to-head comparison of gasoline vs. HHO supplemented shows that the only fuel savings are in leaning the gasoline AFR.
You can run an ICE at a far leaner AFR than the factory mangement and see large gains in efficiency, but only at the expense of higher NOX emmisions. I feel this is the root of any benefits we're seeing through HHO injection.
We need emissions testing of an HHO ICE.
utubeaccess7 2 years ago
There are a few tests on internet showing that the CO emissions and the CO2 emissions are lower, and there is a higher emission on H2O... just google it.
KaelClout 2 years ago
Guys, I'm sorry but this experiment solidifies my skepticism in HHO for ICE supplementation. I have built a number of large cells myself and have followed ZeroFF almost from the beginning of his online videos.
To me, this proves that even a (relatively) large supply of HHO will not substantially increase efficiency of the ICE. The energy used for HHO production clearly outweighs the benefits.
utubeaccess7 2 years ago 2
a 75HP motor produces like 170.000KWh, adding a little of HHo you can add autonomy of like 40 to 80% to the ICE... this means a reduction of 20 to 40% of fuel just by using 200Wh (the potence needed to run the electrolyte)... you should research a little and do some maths before arguing...
KaelClout 2 years ago
I have come to the same conclusion. So you have to ask your self, will HHO help if the power that produces it does not come from the alternator? What if you got the HHO from the waste heat?
3of8jober 2 years ago
Surely the introducyion of HHO, is convering a pure combustion engine into a hybrid combustion/steam engine. Dalton's Law of Partial Pressures and the Rankine Cycle both apply in my view.
WarzSchoolchild 2 years ago
Why don't you conduct this test on a Car . The Hydrogen Cell was meant to operate on DC power , not AC. I dont know many people with painters lamps and floor heaters in their cars , not to mention a extention cord dragging behind . The design and materials used to build a cell are vitally important as well . Maybe you gas production takes time because of this . I've seen many cells start production instantly . I think GAS MILLEGE is the main reason for the Cell . TRY YOUR TESTS ON A CAR !
Hangtime96 2 years ago
Quick question: would connecting the HHO cell directly to the AC output of the generator have any effect? Or would it just trip the generator's breaker?
I've never seen anyone doing HHO straight from AC, so I'm assuming it doesn't work very well! (not enough amps I assume)
Great work!
spambox222 2 years ago
Not at this slow frequency. Gas production takes time to get started once voltage is applied. Every time you switch polarity gas production slows to a stop then resumes and the other direction.
ZeroFossilFuel 2 years ago
Keep up the great work. Wish you guys were down under in Australia so I could compare notes. I have a HHO cell in my old van and it is showing great promise with fuel economy. Approx 21% improvement but I had to take it out as we had a 40 deg C day and it boiled (never done that before) Maybe the electrolyte has become too concentrated as water is used. Amps went up past 28A. Going to add larger reservour and new electrolyte. I hear electrolyte becomes toxic what is best way to despose of it?
ChrisPCrunchy 2 years ago
I bought this thing on ebay called F-16 Pulse King. Iworks great on my dry cell.
I cant hear my engine
7979celebrity 2 years ago
What compression ratio is the generator?
EnergySupply2008 3 years ago
That's a good question. It's a briggs & Stratton engine. I'm guessing about nine to one .
ZeroFossilFuel 2 years ago
I have always pondered about HHO in a power source. I am using solar power currently now. I have to use a gen set for power too. With all the added load you create on the generator you have no gain means you consume more energy. Granted you put back some. Kinda reminds me of the perpetual machine. The HHO unit needs to produce more with less input in order to off set the power it consumes in the creating process. MIT used different metals to improve the process. But expensive metals.
Trippy518 3 years ago
One question: which kind of engine work better with the HHO gas the diesel or the petrol one?
copperoll 3 years ago
All evidence points to diesel.
ZeroFossilFuel 3 years ago
Thanks
copperoll 3 years ago
*applause*
rusty8684 3 years ago
meanwhile - back to a Spark Advance/Retard control handle on the steering column like Model-A Fords had. Try Retarding the Ignition Timing when your using HHO Gas and it will work better. :-) HHO burns 7X faster than Gasoline. Takes as much as 70 Degrees ATDC to make it work with a Load On.
chuck94122 3 years ago
GDAY ZERO
HOPE YOU ENJOYED YOUR HHO GAMES.
I GOT YOU TO SAY HELLO TO ME WHILE DRIVING HOME. QUITE FANTASTIC TO HEAR YOU SAY HELLO TO ANDY IN MELBOURNE AUSTRALIA WHILE LIVE AND OVER 20,000 MILES AWAY.ANYWAY I SEEK CLARIFICATION ON A TEXT POSTED BY ANOTHER YOUTUBE PLAYER AND IT IS QUOTED VERBATIM BELOW
"Well, that's what it takes for coils to magnetize that fast. The ideal frequency for the water molecule is just slightly over 108Ghz. That is the natural resonant frequency of the water molecule
kissmyhho 3 years ago
great work zerofossilfuel how about stirling engine capture heat from the engine to produce more elektrik power just idea
wnowak1 3 years ago
If i had just plugged an electric motor in to your generator and connected it to its crank, would I have had similar if not better results than your gas? It seems to me as though all your doing is re-cycling energy and not creating energy.
pikeystudmuffin 3 years ago
I'm thinking a small four wheeler motor. You can drive a car alternator easily. furthermore, if mounted on a stand, jetting changes are easy. Timing changes are slightly more difficult, but not terrible. You WILL prove our point to all of the non-believers if they will give it a chance
wheeler012000 3 years ago
I would like to see that test performed differently. Although time consuming, changing jetting and timing would yield you much better results. I too experiment, though not at your level. I think you are way further along than the video shows. Unless the volume of HHO is significant enough to displace air intake there is going to be no real gain without jetting changes. The carb doesn't know the HHO is there. Other than sheer volume.
wheeler012000 3 years ago
Zero, Kudos on your work. I am a die hard believer in your work. However, and I know you knew this was coming. Your generator really needs to be running properly. Any engine running on "choke" is going to use more fuel. The comparison needs to be apples to apples. Any engine has a required cfm to operate at a given rpm. When you apply choke you increase vacuum on the jet. Drawing more fuel. I would love to see tests of the same motor's fuel consumption on and off choke. Again, Kudos!!!!
wheeler012000 3 years ago
dw807,
The amount of air + HHO is controlled by the governor on the engine. It regulates the engine speed so the the AC output of the generator is at the right frequency. As the current/power draw on the generator increases the governor increases the air flow to maintain speed.
Replacing part of the air with HHO allow less air flow to be needed to maintain that same speed due to increased efficiency of combustion.
And the air flow meters the gasoline as used as FearTurtles mentioned.
TEDodd 3 years ago
How do you meter the fuel mixture without a needle valve on the carb? The gasoline/air ratio won't lean out without some kind of fuel adjustment between the float bowl and the top of the draw tube. Seems to me that without this advantage you would have no real change in gasoline usage. HHO will increase burn rate and run the engine smoother but if you want to gauge the gas savings than you have to decrease the mixture.
dw807 3 years ago
By restricking the amount of air flow you limit the amount of gas that is drawn into the cylinder. This is how most small engine carbs work. It is not ideal and could be a the reason this test did not preform better.
FearTurtles 3 years ago
Sorry ! I don't understand english so well ! That's why i'm asking this: USUALLY HOW MUCH GASOLINE CONSUMS THAT ENGINE AND HOW MUCH DISTILLATED WATER CONSUMS IN YOU TEST?
danielp1984 3 years ago
I found this to be interesting. If HHO does contain 9.54 btu's per ltr and need to have be at 4% when mixed with air then you would need around 40 lpm of it in a 3.0 ltr engine just for it to run. Figure that engine gets only 15 mpg at 60 mpg. You would need about 120 lpm. Now at 15% gas efficiency that engine uses 1050 btu's to run per minute. 120 lpm of HHO contains 1145 btu's. So by the time you have enough hho to burn you come close to runing the engine on it alone. Provided its efficient.
FearTurtles 3 years ago
the small orifice on the needle valve is restricting HHO gas flow too much. We don't need an area of high pressure at the caburator inlet we need to increase flow rate of gas. Choking the HHO stack forcing it to exit such a small orifice? Sometimes people even use vacume from engine to "pull" HHO gass from the cell. If you can increase gass flow rate efficiency can be even further.
gulliverbag 3 years ago
This concern has been raised several times. Let me be clear.
The needle does not limit gas production. The HHO production remains constant at atmospheric pressure, under vacuum or under pressure. Pressure will build up inside the generator until it can push the HHO out of the needle valve at the same rate it would at atmospheric pressure. The use of a needle simply increases the velocity and directs the flow of the gases injected.
ZeroFossilFuel 3 years ago
Hey Guys.. This all sounds fantastic but you are all forgetting the laws of the universe.
with HHO or Brown gas. the law is 2H2O → 2H2 + O2 [Electrolysis step] 2H2 + O2 → 2H2O [Combustion step]
so when you loose heat through the engine then there is no way you going to return unity. or over unity as you claim.
So your problem will never be solved.
ChrisThePrick 3 years ago
No one is claiming over unity. There is no such thing in the literal sense. What there IS is the harnessing of energy sources not previously harnessed because they were not yet discovered.
What we claim is something more than 18% total system efficiency. Still far under unity, just not quite THAT far.
ZeroFossilFuel 3 years ago
As a percentage would you not be using about 20% of that generators output just to produce the gas? Thus no efficiency?
pikeystudmuffin 3 years ago
The idea was just to put a heavy load on the generator, not to try to create something of over-unity
Dooobs 3 years ago
Zero This is a little offsubject but I have hit everyone site that I trust and I haven't seen anything mentioned about using hho in turbo applications. I'm wanting to combine most of what I know as far as the mechanical end. But was woundering if someone has done some egt anylasis,at least on cylinder #5 which is the leanest on a sb chevy.Thanks,oh by the way I purposely bought a carburated truck so so fuel leaning can be controled mechanically ie jets rod so on
octfifty 3 years ago
the only way to run this stuff on a turbo engine is to do it the rough and dangerous way of a draw through carb setup (like old'school 80's turbo engines) until there is so much gas being produced it can be injected under pressure, a draw through system is the only option
lynel1985 3 years ago
It takes a lot of time to produce videos and conduct experiments. This was an excellect series, thanks Zero.
OriginalUncleNemo 3 years ago
Hi Zero
I really enjoy your vidios. I have not watched all of them yet but I'm sure I will. I have a question for you or anyone that sees this. I have a truck that is propane powered. Do you know how propane will react with HHO?
Thanks in advance
rvoops 3 years ago
I can't see any problems with mixing the two. I have read that in doing so you can scorch the valves but the moisture would have a cooling effect which would go agianst that claim.
FearTurtles 3 years ago
Bravo! Victory is for those who do not quit! Do the math? I say do the dollars.. HHO is cheaper than gas or diesel.. useing less of one or the other is saving ME money..Right on to you, bro!
audiegates 3 years ago
I say do the math to get a better understanding of what is taking place. I can go out to my CJ7 and lean out the carborator and achieve better MPG only at the expence of burning the valves and pistons. Water vapor can save the valves and pistons so the question is does the small amount of hydrogen do anything? Hydrogen is a very interesting fuel I admit. But if you don't measure the effects of the moisture then you can't determine the benifits of the hydrogen. Unless proven by math.
FearTurtles 3 years ago
On another note MR. Zero I know you've sanded your plates in one direction for production. If the edge theory is true about bubble formation what if you took a rougher grit and made the grooves deeper, making more of an edge?? Also what about using a car amp as a power supply to the cell?
buddah30 3 years ago
LOL seems how Nuclear reactors are not common place for most people I think HHO is a fine way to presue this type of fuel. I do think it is important to use the heat created from these gens.
FearTurtles 3 years ago
Way to go zero! I think this project demonstrates the amount of HHO required to make a difference. However, if you make a ratio of L/Min of gas to cubic inches of engine displacement we might have a better idea of the ratio needed for our cars. I suspect its more than we can reasonably produce. I was able to double my fuel mileage using water vapor and an EFIE; with power loss of course. HHO seemed to help give more pep. 5% btu value hydrogen to gas makes IT happen, but thats a lot!.
cheaphardwarez 3 years ago
bacarylo 3 years ago
Amps really is not the right unit to look at as it is not a unit of energy. Watt hours is the correct unit. I'm sure zero can give you the correct math here. Also what Zero and everyone else who dabbles in this does not make 100% purt 2H(2) +O2 Brown gas contains a lot of water vapor in it. Not sure what % but if you can see something raise out of the HHO gen then you are creating a good amount of moisture.
FearTurtles 3 years ago
Do we know if this really helps? i was thinking about taking a bottle of hydrogen and a bottle of oxygen and combining their outputs through flow meters and a mixer and forcing a large volume of HHO than can be produced to prove efficiency increases or we are just wasting time. if it does increase efficiency then we just need to increase production reasonably.
1madcap 3 years ago
Now thats a good idea. If you can run test starting at say,1lpm and increase it to find exactly where any improvement starts. It would be great to have his done on a Dino to measure the results. You really wouldn't need the O2.
FearTurtles 3 years ago
WHat about efficiency of the generator itself. I believe your loads are to light. Your generator is optimzed to run at about 75% efficeintly. Like a car gets its best gas mpg at 65mph not slower or faster. I think your results are down in the mud. You need to increase HHO and Load.
1madcap 3 years ago
Another very good point, also noted by the nearly identical gasoline consumption between no load and 10% load.
ZeroFossilFuel 3 years ago
Anything between 50%-75% should work. With my cars I find 45 - 60 to be the best driving speeds. This goes right along with my other post. I loved how Zero's demonstration shows it.
FearTurtles 3 years ago
way to go dude. I knew it could be done now you are proving it.
doc12188 3 years ago
I don't think a lot of people realize what you're really trying to do because your name is a bit misleading.
The idea behind the testing is sound. Introducing hydrogen gas into a hydrocarbon fueled engine to improve the combustion process. Hydrogen ignites easier and the flame front travels faster. The boost in fuel efficiency would come primarily from the burning of what would otherwise be unburned hydrocarbon fuel (less fossil fuel, not zero :P ).
SciderGuy 3 years ago
Zero is the end game. Small steps, my friend.
ZeroFossilFuel 3 years ago
Hi, I'm also working on this .....
energiaregia 3 years ago
I'm amazed it's only a net 5% drop in fuel efficiency...
SciderGuy 3 years ago
AND a disipation of a great deal of wasted energy that could otherwise be reclaimed to do other work.
HENCE A NET GAIN!
ZeroFossilFuel 3 years ago
You might have a net gain of overall energy released from the system but you don't have any net gain in useful energy released from the system. I don't count heat energy lost from my cars radiator in my cars hp output because it doesn't make it go any faster.
SciderGuy 3 years ago
Agreed. However, the leap from where I am now to recovering most of that wasted excess energy being created is a very small one.
ZeroFossilFuel 3 years ago
Cars do not use all of the energy that is available at any given time. Example is with my F150 I get 16 mpg normally. The truck weighs 4500 lb. When I haul a 7000lb trailer it drops to 8 mpg at its worst. But I have a net gain of 2500lb that does not cost me anything. The load on the Alternator works much the same way. Sure at 1000 rpms you can hear a load but while driving it is really nothing. This Generator experiment is ideal because the IC runs at a fixed rpm and you can set a fixed load.
FearTurtles 3 years ago
Please write a description of this.
Fearmonger101 3 years ago
Has anyone tested the CO2 content of auto exhaust with an HHO gen assisting the gas/air mixture? It will elevate the CO2 levels dramatically as the carbon fuel burns more completely. Is this a greenhouse gas or is that hogwash?
rwhhguy 3 years ago
Very interesting, and very encouraging.
JamesF63 3 years ago
I thought so too.
ZeroFossilFuel 3 years ago
Well done for your work, but there is an immutable law of physics to be overcome if "HHO" is to be a useful fuel: generating it with less energy than is liberated from its combustion. It just isn't possible. Ravi vanished when he found this out for himself after closely replicating the fraud Stan Meyer's work. Claims of "men in black" visiting, silencing him, after he was asked for input power figures. Meyer would not provide this info either, and was found guilty of fraud.
ArtificialCleverenAI 3 years ago
I appreciate and even welcome your skepticism. I too was a skeptic before I started researching all this. I stand by my statement that we are not violating any law of energy conservation made on the front page of my web site.
The Honda is being driven with real HHO supplementation to the HHO Games. Without HHO is has never made better that 39 MPG highway. I hope to have some iron clad results to report during my keynote address.
ZeroFossilFuel 3 years ago
He's not using the hydrogen gas to replace fuel, the idea is that the hydrogen improves combustion efficiency.
Hydrogen is easily ignitable, ignites at a wide range of mixture ratios and has a very fast flame front.
The idea is that this flash of hydrogen combustion will help to ignite what would otherwise be unburned hydrocarbons.
Not creating something for nothing, simply not allowing excess loss of fuel out the exhaust.
Sciderrado 3 years ago
Very well stated.
ZeroFossilFuel 3 years ago
This theory only works if the % of Hydrogen is great enough to burn by itself. I'm not sure about the % with this Generator but a 3.0 V6 consumes 2100 lpm of air at 700 rpm's even 5 lpm of hydrogen will not ignite at that mix. You need just under 4% hydrogen to do that at 400-500 deg. I'm thinking that the improvement is do to the added moisture and not the HHO. Issues with the controls of this generator. A way to standardize the air flow is needed. Anyway Thank Zero for the demonstration
FearTurtles 3 years ago
As it relates to HHO systems like Water4Gas, I totally agree. More water vapor than HHO and leaning out the mix can only go just so far.
I can't WAIT to show you all my next test. ;-)
ZeroFossilFuel 3 years ago
I look forward to seeing your next Test. 8) A 10hp ic consumes 900 Litre's of air running at 3600rpm's. The governer on the Generator should try to maintain that speed. So all you need to do is to pipe in the HHO. Same as running HHO on a carbed car engine. 2.5lpm of pure h2 mixed with 897.5lpm will still not burn. Thats only a .28% mixture. My money is still on the moisture. 8-p I will experiment with my gen. We can compair notes later. Thanks for the demonstration.
FearTurtles 3 years ago
FEATTURTLES
a common misconception when it comes to working out how much fuel is needed. at 2100LPM of air at 700rpm on your said 3.o V6 you are saying your engine requires 142.8LPM of unleaded... at 700rpm i might remind you. WRONG! a 4cylce engine only has 1 intake stroke (breath) per cylinder every 2ND crank rotation. So you 'could' multiply your displacement by 350rpm (700/2) but this is faulted since full displacement of each cylinder is only obtained at FULL THROTTLE..2bContinued
lynel1985 3 years ago
ok i did some sums and i come up with an amount of around 60-65mL/min of ULP at 750rpm for said engine. That is assuming 100percent volumetric efficeincy, under NO vaccum, which when at idle is far from the figures i have posted.
lynel1985 3 years ago
the math here is wrong. a 3.0 v6 will consume much less at idle, MUCH less. this is a 4 stroke engine so you dived the displacement in half, times 1/2 displacement by the rpm, divide that number by the percentage of throttle. Most gas engine run at 15% throttle at idle. for a 3lt v6 the fuel needed is about 157.5 lpm. H2O will burn great at 30:1 so, 157.5/ 30 = 5.25. you would need 5.25 lpm of H2O to run this machine at idle or 10.64 lpm of atomized gasoline.
ecg5757 3 years ago
like i said, 65ml/min @100%throttle, so obviously it would be less then that. You say 15percent throttle at idle, if thats the case, say 1/6 of the figure i gave, which makes 11mL/min. DOes that sound better? where did you get the 15percent throttle@idle? I think you need to go back over your figures, as i read what you said i quote "...the fuel needed is about 157LPM" Umm how big is your fuel tank. you do realise LPM stands for Litres per minute? you realise HHO is not pure hydrogen?
lynel1985 3 years ago
WOW Think about this. 2.5 lpm of HHO and at best a 7% gain. People make the 30% gain on cars with just 1 lpm. What gives? Zero I would be completely disappointed. It's nice to hear the engine run better and these video's do bring up a good point that a HHO gen really does not consume any additional gas as car engines are underused as is. Maybe the result would improve if you didn't use a air needle to inject the hho.
FearTurtles 3 years ago
Can the HHO be injected directly into the cylinder head? Bypass the carberator and I think it will make a difference.
bradbranch 3 years ago
There's an old Black Sabbath song called, "Zero the Hero", ZeroFossilFuels my hero.
Great job.
edubyas 3 years ago
My grand dad has been doing HHo for over 5 years now.
primarily for deisil engines and generators
I can help a bit with what he has passed to me as you are well lacking some primary info
]
AmeriCIA 3 years ago
Zero. For our bench testing, we use a 1/2 HP electric motor that drives a car alternator that charges a 12V battery. This provides a steady 14.5V DC from the alternator through the battery to power our HHO test devices on the bench.
Also, the EFI in an automobile receives micro pulses from the ECU (car computer). With 6 or 8 cylinders, there is quite a bit more fuel consumption than a 11HP engine. Beating the ECU through hacking sensors or 3rd party "black boxes" is the next challenge.
teambasecorp 3 years ago
good stuff z.and to all the disbelievers to take it to a dealership for test.PLEASE!!this man is doing ALL the test needed and more.he has posted #134 clips of them with all the data for ALL to see.you should watch them all before you comment.IDIOTS, do you need the definition too?just go somewhere else and play.
msmedlin 3 years ago
Another interested demonstration would be to lean the mixture as low as possible without killing the generator motor, with HHO. Then turn off the HHO into the generator, and see if the engine dies.
norcalsolar 3 years ago
Did you try to lean the mixure without HHO and check efficiency, as a base test?
norcalsolar 3 years ago
Yes, the engine stumbles and runs VERY poorly.
ZeroFossilFuel 3 years ago
Thanks.
norcalsolar 3 years ago
Good test. I think the carb is set up to run with the air filter . Could you do that test again with the stock filter and then pipe the hho in?
scott91372 3 years ago
Installing the air filter makes no difference. The motor runs exactly the same way with or without it.
ZeroFossilFuel 3 years ago
Could you improve the accuracy of this simulation by rigging a car alternator to be driven by the generator, and then power the HHO cell from the alternator? Great work as usual ZFF!
jbooom 3 years ago
As I have stated earlier, that is a possibility but connecting and extending the shafts might be a real pain.
ZeroFossilFuel 3 years ago
Why not skip the generator and run a small mower motor with belt drive running a car alternator? Then you'll have the electrical power you need without the power supply, and the power to run the car alternator may be less than what the generator requires.
pathtwig 3 years ago
DING DING DING! Give that man a prize!
That's me next ICE venture.
ZeroFossilFuel 3 years ago
You talked about doing better from a battery. Some suggest putting on a second alternator and wiring into the three phase behind the diodes and passing through a capacitor for current limiting then rectifying the power and passing through a long series cell 52 plates. Simple cheap pulsed power and high efficiency cells... Just a thought...
cheaphardwarez 3 years ago
I'm impressed to what you have done. Can you post your wattage consuption of the PS vs the wattage consuption of the PWM I-Reg?
Also, does your generator have a direct 12 volt tap? This would be more like that you would find in an automobile. Your current numbers show you about 98% effecient, but you are on a medium load.
I suggest repeating the experiment at 4 stages:
1 - No other load other than the HHO
2 - Low load with the HHO
3 - High load with the HHO
4 - Over load with HHO
n4zxi 3 years ago
zzf, why don't you approach the big 3 or big 2 car company and offer your services to R&D a system using HHO exclusively for a say a 4 door 2 litre saloon car? according to one of your videos, you mentioned you live in Chicago? that would be near GM no?
at least you would get a bigger budget and you could have more peers to discuss your work :) last but not least you can spend ALL your working time on it!! super!
cheers!
rfbu 3 years ago
Because I do not sleep with the Devil.
ZeroFossilFuel 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Maybe its because you know that they would laugh you right out of Detroit.
radrman01200 3 years ago
Radrman01200 you really crack me up (I always get a kick out of closed-minded people)... After watching these entire generator test videos how can anyone say there is no possible way that an I.C.E. doesnt get at least some benefit from HHO. I agree there are a lot of outrageous claims out there but you will not find them here.
Keep up the good work Zero...
neorat2007 3 years ago
Hey Z (long time reader)
im sure your aware the most noticable difference would bt made using an engine tuned and running as efficently as possible. These generators would be notoriously bad on fuel since they would be designed to run for prolonged periods and are air cooled thus requiring a colder burn by running richer then stoich. Maybe try this with a deisel generator as air/fuel ratio would be vastly higher meaning your overall HHO input equates to a higher percentage of fuel input?
lynel1985 3 years ago
I do think you can bet better results with a diesel motor. A company in FortWorth (name escapes me just now) was using large hho cells and water injection to run 50 wk generators on half the fuel as before and claimed to be able to go as lean as only 10% fuel, but pinging was a problem. I visited their shop and they ran these monster generators indoors and there was no smoke or odor of any kind. They drove a diesel truck using the same system with a quart sized glass fuel tank on the dash.
cheaphardwarez 3 years ago
I have heard the same thing regarding diesel engines. I wish I had one to experiment with.
ZeroFossilFuel 3 years ago
i think ZFF has done lots of great research but i guess there are many other questions still unanswered.
to ZFF, take it easy on comments - don't take it to heart.
btw, would you test with different loads like when driving a car? would different loads require more HHO? if yes, how would the system cater for that?
cheers!
rfbu 3 years ago
Yes, there are still many unanswered questions. I'd do you plan to test with different loads. However, in a car, the amount of HHO required is substantially greater than my small generator. Systems that we have now barely create enough HHO to supplement at anything butt very light engine loads such as cruising at highway speeds. It is not until we start generating twenty, 30, or more liters per minute that we must worry about regulating the HHO with throttle position and engine load.
ZeroFossilFuel 3 years ago
Ban me cause I pose a question that you dont have an answer for...wow...and youre supposed to be "scientific"?
radarma01200 3 years ago
Wheres the proof that this is so? What properties does HHO have. Hydrogen? Oxygen? How does two basic elements compliment a complex hydrocarbons combustion process? That is a big piece of information left out of your "math". All i see is you making the math "fit" what you want it to do. Show HOW the hho compliments the gas and translates to more energy output.
radarman01200 3 years ago
You are an idiot. I am done entertaining idiots. You are done posting here and wasting my time.
ZeroFossilFuel 3 years ago
Quote for your website:
"HHO as an additive does more than return 85% of the energy we put in to create it. It's properties enhance the slow burning gasoline, speeding up the rate of combustion, causing much more of the total combustion process to be translated into mechanical energy rather than being lost as waste heat out the tail pipe, raising the efficiency of the total system."....
radarman01200 3 years ago
Your point?
ZeroFossilFuel 3 years ago
Thanks for doing this test. Ive been spouting this test for a few months. I'm gald to see someone try it, and record it. I think your results may be a bit more positive with less than 0.75LPM HHO.
My access to a generator went south for hurrcane relief work and is still there:(
You said you had 2 LPM output, How did you determine the LPM output? Is there some benifit to raising the pressure of your HHO system and is that why you used the small orifice needle.?
Yourfishman 3 years ago
awsome stuff good work .
xerochaos187 3 years ago
I have seen generators with a 12vdc out.I wonder if you can try this type of generator and eliminate the power supply thus eleminating the pass transistors and heat loss. okr maybe you can get hold of a swithing supply which is more efficient. good experimenting and keep it up.
supersilve 3 years ago
Others have told me about this too. I'm guessing they're battery start models and add the 12V out as a convenience because it's already there anyway charging the battery.
I was not so lucky. :-(
ZeroFossilFuel 3 years ago
Would it be possible to rig a car alternator onto the generator to power your HHO Cell? In that way, you would more closely simulate the environment present in a car.
jbooom 3 years ago
If I could extend the shaft, maybe. I'm sure it would be a PITA, though.
ZeroFossilFuel 3 years ago
So was Gates(microsoft)doing his work in his garage, but we have big competitors like Exxon, Mobil, etc. They are the Mafia and we will not have a chance to put the product on the market,Capisci? Remmember that guy with a freq generator and salty water making the water burn, Capisci? that is free energy
stragopulis 3 years ago
Gates in his garage is not a similarity. He worked at IBM along with Steve Jobs(Apple) and they were writing code which turned out to be MS DOS. Far Far cry from bad science that this hho is.
radarman01200 3 years ago
How is that free energy when it takes energy input from the frequency generator to do that. Think about what you say before you type. Your statements will make much more sense. Plus, don't assume ppl will just take what you say as truth. I won't. "show me the money"
radarman01200 3 years ago
Read, UNDERSTAND, reread as many times as is necessary until you DO understand (if that's at all possible) the 'Simple Math for Experts' on the very front page of my web site. It's valid. I just proved it.
Else retreat into that hole you crawled out of and wallow in your ignorance.
ZeroFossilFuel 3 years ago
I never saw any data from Capisci showing how much energy he put into the water versus how much he got out from the little tiny flame...
SciderGuy 3 years ago
I was woundering if there was any change in the temperature of the exaust. And if so; How much. Thanks
RHEAD100 3 years ago
Hey Zero longggg time I did not chime in. As far as your comment "I don't have a battery charger big enough" Have you ever tried to use the Astron PS as a charger?
Last week my car had a dead 3 year old battery, (click click click chatter of the soleniod level dead) I only have a old 6 amp charger and needed to get my butt on the road fast. Put my 20 amp Astron on it for about 20-30 minutes. The car fired right up, it turned out to be a dam good sub to a dedicated charger.
DaveGringo 3 years ago