@ComicBookSyndicate Batman: TAS by itself isn't the problem, but giving an arrogant, biased producer/writer/artist a free pass on illiterate, juvenile, hack writing DC Superheroes in a show like JLA just because he or she was faithfully, passionate in adapting the Batman Mythos into TAS is the problem. That's truly not being a DC fan, that's being an immature drone if not a hypocritical one.
Im a sixteen year old guy, and i wanted to get into DC comics since i started watching JLA Unlimited on TV when I was younger; So i hear about this reboot and I think "Awesome now i can finally get into them! No confusing back-history just new crap!". Then i got Detective Comics #1... what poorly written trash that was, And the fans love it! It was horrible, the dialogue was disgusting and so was the ending. How am I suppose to get into comics if they're to "mature" for me to bring to my house!
@ApivotZ DC shot themselves in the foot with some of their pathetic attempts to be "mature". Superheroes are an absurd fantasy genre best suited for all-ages stories.
I would recommend the 'Batman' title by Scott Snyder and 'Action Comics' by Grant Morrison for a better example of what DC can do.
@ComicBookSyndicate Thanks for the recommendations. I honestly dont think traditional comics like super heroes will make it for the next two generations unless they make an effort to create books for teens and young adults.
Maybe they can start making monthly anthology comics aimed at the people who watch they're cartoon network shows. Like Viz media did for that Naruto TV show; Make a deal with Walmart to get the book in the magazine section, or something.
@ApivotZ Comic books have skipped (at least) one full generation. Kids that grew up in the late 90s and 00s had almost no exposure to comics. This has nothing to do with competition from video games; it has to do with DC and Marvel producing confusing, trashy comics for the direct market, that are unavailable to any readers outside of the tiny niche of comic shops.
The DC Reboot is a step in the right direction, but time will tell of its long term effects...
@ApivotZ agreed with the "Batman" recommendation. It's mature in the true sense of the word: mature storytelling laced with intense action, and not the overly violent and gruesome kind in Detective and others.
@ComicBookSyndicate Also, J Bone confirmed in a statement he WASN'T talking about Batwoman, with regards to the lesbian comment, which he thinks is a "first rate" comic. I dunno if that was pointed out but I just had to check up on that!
@MylesMore4U Somewhere among these 284 comments, that post by J. Bone was quoted. Cooke also made it clear that he had nothing against homosexuality, only with taking a pre-existing character and changing their orientation for shock value.
@ComicBookSyndicate Aye, i'm still iffy on the idea myself of a sexual orientation change, though admittdly nor totally against the idea, but my main hatred is against pathetic attempts at shock value using violence or rape, it really is disgraceful that Bruce Timm's DCAU is more mature than the comics.
@Diakron79 I said MORE mature, not that its the holy shrine of enlightenment, its a cartoon! But it's undeniably better than most of the trash DC churns out, and its consistantly enjoyable. How did he give Wonder Woman a bad name, just wondering? And that has exactly nothing to do with ASB&R. The main explanation for ASB&R's crappiness is that Frank Miller cant write anymore, thats no one else's fault, I mean the guy farted out dick head propaganda Holy Terror.
@MylesMore4U You made it seem like it's some holy grail of DC. If it's just a cartoon, then please tell the misguided fanatics that. Timm foolishly smeared the WW mythos @ Day1. Instead of a promoting a wise, compassionate, Utopian leader-like superheroine, he derailed the mythos by giving us an angry, warmongering, female chauvinstic stereotype who was submissive to Batman for no apparent reason. That's not Wonder Woman, that's Red Sonja! Thus making this less wonderful.
the mouth on him gees, but he does raise a great point. how are kids suppose to learn how to be fan boys like i am if they have things like women being raped by dr light or batwoman becoming lesbian, and batman banging every female superhero there is. i remember when batman didnt bang anyone it was only bruce getting tail
Batman has always worked best when held to a self-imposed higher standard.
Also, aside from the comics morality issues, the more 'human' Batman becomes, the more the inevitable question arises: "Why doesn't he just KILL all the costumed homicidal maniacs in his Rogue's Gallery...beginning with The Joker?"
He makes a great point about it. Now when he says the Lesbian part, however, I think of Wonder Woman. Somebody should make her Lesbian or at least bi-sexual due to the fact that she's from an all female society. Don't you think that if you lived in a society with one gender that homosexuality would be not only encouraged but also thought as normal? That's just my thought. Anyways, big fan of his work. Magnificent artist.
@SuperMrONeill Alan Moore touched on this when he did 'Glory' for Awesome Comics. Glory was Rob Liefeld's (!) Wonder Woman doppleganger, and Moore pointed out that if she came from a island populated only by women, homosexuality would have been the only option.
@ComicBookSyndicate Yes, but that was only one issue, I believe. Leave it to Moore to point out stuff like that. Remember, this is the very same person who criticized Miller for his part in 300 where Leonidas calls the Athenians "Little boy lovers."
@SuperMrONeill Well, i think Miller deserved to be criticized. Since both Spartans and Athenians were Greek, we know both states were openly homosexual (as was everyone then, we presume), so Frank Miller's quip came across as homophobic.
darwyn cooke is a bit of a curmudgeon isnt he? The problem with the industry is not that superheroes have gotten more explicit, its that superheroes are not relevant and were not a good idea to begin with. Teams of costumed crimefighters is a shallow, absurd idea that should have been finished after watchmen. The industry needs to branch out, you can see the success of books from vertigo and things like the walking dead and hellboy (who is not a superhero in the traditional sense).
@mittROMNEY666 "not a good idea" and "not relavant" are relative expressions. Billions of dollars in ticket sales for Dark Knight, Iron Man, Spider-Man and X-men movies would refute your claims.
I do agree they are 'absurd', but not shallow. All-Star Superman, Doom Patrol and Animal Man by Grant Morrison, as well as Supreme and the ABC line by Alan Moore prove that. In the right hands, this genre is as limitless as any myth, fairy tale, or religion.
@ComicBookSyndicate Fair enough. But I still think it is a problem that any one genre should dominate the industry to the extent that superheroes do. And personally, I cant get past the absurdity. Superheroes are often considered modern mythology, but I find that actual mythology such as Norse , Celtic and Greek is far more compelling, more visually interesting, and more sublime. For tastes like mine, us comics have little to offer. But I do love comics, I just have to get them from abroad.
@mittROMNEY666 I do agree that 'serious' superhero comics should have been 'finished' after Watchmen. The same way Sergio Leone destroyed the myth of the American western film, Alan Moore destroyed the myth of the American superhero. It cannot be applied to real life. This is why Bendis and Johns will always fail. They are trying to deal with realistic, pretentious subject matter using characters that wear capes and masks.
@mittROMNEY666 Also, I agree that ancient myth is more compelling for the most part, but superheroes have the potential to be as great, and in the few examples I mentioned above, they have come close.
@mittROMNEY666 I agree. I love super hero comics too,but I wish that the American comic book industry had more variety in terms of genre. super heroes completely dominate comics here,and I sometimes find myself wondering how much longer it can go on. DC and Marvel comics have been around longer than most of us have been alive. someday I'd like to see a definitive end for these characters.
Uh-oh. This debate is steering into "For the Children" territory. To put it in perspective, I don't have much of a problem with a certain amount of adult content in superhero stories. It's the exploitation of what readers have come to believe to be adult material and conflating it with mature storytelling that grates me. I do believe kids can handle most things you show them, or it goes over their heads anyway, so it doesn't matter much. For me, it's not about the kids - it's about taste.
I agree. The death knell of 'exploitation' for me was the JLA cover of Speedy with the bloody stumps for arms. I couldn't hear what he was saying but it was probably something like "Will you take superheroes seriously NOW?"
That's hilarious. From the look of it, he was yelling pretty loudly. Between Cry for Justice and Rise of Arsenal 2010 has been the nadir of DC superheroes. Sad.
I kinda disagree with Darwyn Cooke. I don't think comics are meant for just only young people. I feel that comics should be made for all different ages. There should be a rating system like movies and video games. I think it's ironic that he does not want to hear Batman swearing yet he is bleeped twice in this video.
@toekneebeeears Mr. Cooke is referring to superhero comics specifically, but I don't think he's against comics for adults--he's against comics for immature perverts. The extreme violence and cheap shock value that writers use for their (im)mature take on superheroes would be an embarrassment in any other field.
Why equate 'realism' with "dark, cynical and violent". Does 'mature' mean graphic depictions of sex? Why not deal with mature themes and stories instead. That's far more challenging.
@ComicBookSyndicate What about Watchmen ? It's a superhero comic with graphic depictions of sex, extreme violence, nudity, fowl language, rap, homosexuality, and genocide. Yet it is highly regarded as a great piece of comic book literature. How is it any different then these comics you clam to be for "immature perverts" ?
@toekneebeeears There's a differencce between the sex and violence portrayed in 'A Clockwork Orange' and '2 Fast 2 Furious'. One is exploring the causes and ramifications of violence and rape, one is exploiting it for the titillation of an audience. The same goes for Watchmen vs. Spawn.
@ComicBookSyndicate So are you saying that some sex and violence is acceptable in superhero comics ? If so, how is that determined ? Where do you draw the line ? How do you determine what is perverted and what is not ?
@toekneebeeears The same thing that determines it for any other medium: the talent of the creator and, like I said, the intent of the author.
The gratuitous sex scenes in the 1990s Green Arrow comic are not 'evil', and they would be appropriate in any Hollywood romantic comedy. But what do they have to do with a man that dresses in leotards to fight crime? In escapist fantasy?
@ComicBookSyndicate Green Arrow is a millionaire playboy. That's part of his character. Why is sex acceptable in a romantic comedy but not a superhero comic ? Are superheroes not allowed to have sex ? must they be celibate monks ?
@toekneebeeears Superhero sex can be shown the same place that Superhero bowel movements are shown--off panel! Its a fantasy genre, and some things are best left to our imagination.
If Mike Grell wants to depict kinky sex, he's free to do it with his own characters, not at DC Icon that kids wear on their underoos.
@toekneebeeears Watchmen isn't escapist fantasy. Its a deconstruction of the superhero genre. This is why Snyder's film failed. We are not supposed to participate in the adventures like a typical superhero story (or action film). So using Matrix-style slow motion shows Snyder's misunderstanding of Moore's intent. He was trying to give psychological motivation to someone dressing up in colourful tights and fighting crime. IN THE REAL WORLD.
Marvel and DC characters do not inhabit the real world.
@ComicBookSyndicate Watchmen is still a story with superheroes.It is escapist fantasy. Watchmen did not take place in the real world either. Richard Nixon was not precedent in the 80's. With all the slow motion effects in the movie, the basic story is still the same. Nothing significant was changed. The movie did give psychological motivation to superheroes.
@toekneebeeears Its a duplication of the real world, with some changes. Of course its not the 'real world', its paper and ink. But the world of Watchmen is closer to reality than Superman's Metropolis. The latter is obviously intended as a fairy tale like, idealized 'big city'. Watchmen deals with politics, war, violence rape, in a realistic way. Superman comics do not (though I would prefer to see a return to the 'champion of the oppressed' Superman that fought for social justice).
So true. Why do people fail to realise this point? I think Alan Moore himself would be the first to tell you that Watchmen is NOT a superhero comic book story; it's a comic book story with superheroes in it. It's not meant to be anything like Superman or Batman or Spider-Man or The Hulk. Even the format of the story (12 issues as opposed to ongoing serial). You can tell Snyder missed the point when he gave the characters flashy costumes and kung-fu moves.
@VanguardSupreme I will disagree that Watchmen took place in the real world, however. It didn't. It had electric cars and metropolitan blimps and a bunch of wacky stuff. So it was pretty fantastical. Even its much-touted psychological realism is tweaked with archetypal characters like Rorschach and Ozymandias. It was just that it was willing to go places a conventional superhero wouldn't, or couldn't, or shouldn't, hence the sense of realism. At least, that's how I've always looked at it.
@toekneebeeears Marvel and DC (under the leadership of Bendis and Johns) portray magic, gods, science fiction and that other strange fantasy genre that makes no sense to anyone but us: superheroes. In this world, they used escapist conventions like secret identities and capes, which are leftovers from a genre created for readers seeking escape from the war, or power fantasy as youths.
@toekneebeeears But don't publish stories of escapist fantasy that is clearly meant for children, and then impale Phantom Lady through her breasts on a giant metal spear.And while there is plenty of room for violence in these stories (to avoid violence would be a lie, like the old G.I.JOE cartoon), the above example does not show Geoff Johns maturity, it shows an unhealthy thirst for blood. You might say he has an issue with women.
@toekneebeeears All this criticism could be leveled against Moore as well, and it has. His treatment of Batgirl has been viewed as misogynistic. Perhaps it should have been shown off panel? Maybe its not appropriate for a superhero comic. But, at the very least, the intention is clear: to contrast Joker's current state of mind versus his pre-Joker self. This brought Joker to a new level of menace. What did John's ruthless murder of Phantom Lady accomplish? One panel of cheap thrills.
@toekneebeeears The current post-Watchmen landscape at DC and Marvel has been engineered by a generation of writers all imitating Alan Moore and Frank Miller's 80s work, but many of them don't have the talent to execute it, or the wisdom to realize how silly they look. Even Moore backtracked on his treatment of superheroes and bounced back with Supreme, Youngblood and Glory for Maximum/Awesome, and later Tom Strong and LOEG for ABC.
@toekneebeeears Along with Grant Morrison's JLA, New X-men and All-Star Superman, we finally see the 'state of the art' of superhero comics: time travel, aliens, parallel worlds, intelligent animals...but done WELL. I'm not advocating a direct return to the Silver Age. I believe comics have to adapt. In the hands of Moore, Morrison, and a few others they have.
Bendis, Johns and all the rest have the pretensions of Alan Moore, without the imagination, wit, or grasp of the medium to back it up.
@ComicBookSyndicate Talent and good taste are both a matter of opinion not fact. Who are you or Mr. Cooke to deny Bendis or Johns the right to tell the stories they want to tell ?
@toekneebeeears I'm the reader, and I judge their talents to be less than stellar. Its all subjective I suppose, but a non-comics readers opinion might be handy. Why don't you ask one of your non-comics friends what they think?
@toekneebeeears I have tradition on my side. 70 years of Batman stories don't portray Batman swearing or feeding Robin rats. Doing so betrays his character.
@ComicBookSyndicate Again, All-star Batman is not the real Batman. All-star Batman is an alternate Batman that has nothing to do with the real Batman. Just like All-star Superman has a separate continuity from the real Superman. Would you say that Owlman betrays Batman's character ? How about Superman: Red Son, does that betray superman's character by making him a communist ? How about the millions other of alternate Superman and Batman characters.
@toekneebeeears SHORT VERSION: No one would even BLINK if Darwyn Cooke said his above statement in regards to Harry Potter, Indiana Jones, Lord of the Rings or Star Wars. Comic book readers seem to require violence and sex to justify them reading escapist fantasy. Why? If we can all read and watch Harry Potter and feel no shame in participating in an experience clearly aimed at younger readers/viewers, why do we need superheroes to depict "adult" situations in order for us to enjoy them?
@ComicBookSyndicate The fact is that these characters are adults. They should act like adults, even though they were colorful tights. And some adults have sex and commit violent acts. I am not against kid friendly superhero comics. However, I am against limiting the fan-base to only children. Why can't there be superhero stories for both adults and younger people ? I say make both and let the fans decide what they want to buy.
@toekneebeeears I agree with your last statement. Superheroes can act like adults, and have sex, and commit acts of violence. But there is a limit to the detail and realism appropriate to the genre. Alan Moore, Garth Ennis, Grant Morrison and Warren Ellis create their own characters when they want to deal with 'adult' situations. DC and Marvel superheroes for BOTH adults and young people. So, they have to be written well for adults, and avoid graphically depicting certain adult situations.
@ComicBookSyndicate I do feel that DC and Marvel superhero comics avoid graphically depicting certain adult situations. Take Sue Dibny's rape in Identity Crisis for example( which is the rape I assume Cooke is talking about). Nothing was shown. Everything was implied. Or Batman sewering in All Star Batman & Robin the Boy Wonder. That is an alternate universe Batman. It is not in continuity with the regular Batman comics. He is not the real Batman. It does not count.
@toekneebeeears All-Star Batman was not some or Vertigo spin-off, it was the best selling comic of the 21st Century (at least #1 was). It was spearheaded as the Batman for average fans, that non-comics readers understand without reading 70 years of Batman continuity. So, its more 'real' than the Knighquest/Hush/BatmanInc. character of the regular line, I would argue. If All-Star Batman was not 'real' they should have given him an unrecognizable costume, to differentiate him from the real one.
@ComicBookSyndicate Regardless, All-Star Batman is still an alternate Batman. The All-Star logo should be enough to know that book is not in the regular continuity. For those non-comic readers, I say buyer be ware. Ultimate Spider-man is not the real Spider-man and his costume is exactly the same as the real one.
@toekneebeeears As for Identity Crisis (an excellent story), I wonder if the story could have been exactly the same by replacing Sue Dibny's rape with her murder.
If you go back and read those 1960s Elongated Man stories, its a been embarrassing to think this supporting character in a light hearted comedy/superhero strip has been exploited to make modern DC more 'realistic'. Again, imagine the same fate for Betty or Veronica. Its a bit silly.
@ComicBookSyndicate So, you're saying that it is more acceptable for kids to see murder in superhero comics than rape. If Mr.Cooke had his way we would not be able to read such excellent stories as Identity Crisis. He would call it perverted.
Hate to but in, but I just saw this comment and was like, "Whaa--"?
There's a world of difference between murder and rape. Murder may occur for myriad reasons, and can be depicted or alluded to with varying degrees of intensity. Rape occurs in one way and for one reason ever as far as I know. There's so much psychological baggage that goes with rape as opposed to murder. Do we live in a world now when people can't tell the difference between one form of violence and another?
And...Identity Crisis was an excellent story? I guess there's no accounting for taste. For me, the way Meltzer handled the rape of Sue Dibny in that story was ridiculously obtuse. For one thing, why is Sue Dibny of all people getting raped? But more importantly, the rape serves as a plot point and little more. They weren't capable of dealing with the trauma and consequences of the rape, and they didn't care to. That alone is enough for me to write it off as tacky and cheap.
@VanguardSupreme I think Identity Crisis was a good comic (with the exception of the last issue). I do agree 100% that the rape of Sue Dibny was ridiculous and pointless. The EXACT story could have been told with an attempted murder (or something else). The flashbacks, the mind wipes, the mystery, everything.
It was (yet another) attempt by writers to graft 'mature' content onto a genre that doesn't require it.
Now that you mention it, Identity Crisis really had it's share of great moments. I particularly like the scene with Tim and Batman in the Batmobile racing to save his father. But the main story, with the rape and the OOC mindwiping...I couldn't deal with that. But that last issue...man, that reveal was spectacularly wacky. Oh well.
@VanguardSupreme Many comics readers interpret these example (ie: Speedy's bloody stumps, sex in 'The Boys', excessive cursing) as proof that 'comics are for adults'. There plenty of comics for adults, but none of them have a 'Blackest Night' banner across the top.
@VanguardSupreme I was asking if ComicBookSyndicate thought that it is more acceptable for kids to see murder in superhero comics than rape. I'm not speaking for him but, from what I can gather from his comments the answer would be yes from him. I feel that either would be OK to be shown in a superhero comic for mature readers. Neither would be OK in a comic meant for younger readers.
@toekneebeeears Murder can be and has been portrayed in children's stories for centuries. Even BAMBI featured the murder of Bambi's mother. I think what VanguardSupreme is trying to say is that a child can understand murder. Infants witness the death of insects, pets and even loved ones. 'Alive' and 'dead' are simple (maybe painful) concepts to understand.
However, it is nearly impossible for a prepubescent child to understand sexual intercourse, let alone the motivation for rape.
@ComicBookSyndicate I don't think you give children enough credit. Sex is one of the most basic concepts there is. If any animal can understand it then children can. How old were you when you first asked "Where do I come from ? " It was probably the same age you asked "Why won't my old pet wake up ? " Both can be understood by children. Neither is easy to explain. One is not more acceptable than the other. I say both can be portrayed tastefully in superhero comics.
@toekneebeeears No, I can't back down on this. Rape (or child molestation) has no place in a fantasy adventure story. Children can ask about sex, but they cannot understand it, until they hit puberty.
Animals don't understand sex because they don't understand anything. They're animals.
@ComicBookSyndicate You just contradicted yourself. You said "Rape (or child molestation) has no place in a fantasy adventure story." Yet earlier you said "IC(Identity Crisis) is a great comic." Identity Crisis is a superhero comic that has rape in it's storyline. It also seems that you like Watchmen, another superhero comic involving rape in it's storyline. So I would conclude that you do think that rape has a place in a superhero comics.
@toekneebeeears@toekneebeeears Yes, its about taste and execution. I did say IC is a great comic, but then I said "the rape of Sue Dibny was ridiculous and pointless." So, no, I don't think it has a place. I also stating earlier (somewhere in here) that Watchmen is a deconstruction of superheroes, whereas Batman/Green Arrow/Spider-man just plain superheroes.
@toekneebeeears Yes, its about taste and execution. I did say IC is a great comic, but then I said "the rape of Sue Dibny was ridiculous and pointless." So, no, I don't think it has a place. I also stating earlier (somewhere in here) that Watchmen is a deconstruction of superheroes, whereas Batman/Green Arrow/Spider-man just plain superheroes.
@ComicBookSyndicate I felt that Sue Dibny's rape was handled tastefully. Everything was implied. There was no nudity. I don't think the word "rape" even appeared in the comic. It was not pointless. Dr. Light had to commit a crime so horrendous to justify his mind-wipe. The reader needed to have extreme hate for Dr. Light. Running out of a bank with a bag that had $ on it was not going to cut it.
@toekneebeeears another example: there are 2 ways to do a story set in World War II. The 'escapist fantasy' way (Indiana Jones films), where the hero is an exaggerated persona that we identify with as a power fantasy. We participate in his fight against Nazis (ie: zombies, vampires, "bad guys") and feel satisfaction in defeating the enemy....
@toekneebeeears The other way in a film like 'The Pianist'. Cold blooded murder in the Holocaust is portrayed in vivid detail. It would not be appropriate to show Nazis tossing a cripple over a balcony in an Indiana Jones film. It would not be appropriate to show a Nazi putting his gun to the heads of five Jews and exploding their brains all over the snow in vivid detail-one after the other...
@toekneebeeears On the flip side, if Adrien Brody started punching his way out of the Warsaw Ghetto with a smile on his face and glint in his eye, with a John Williams theme song, this would also be inappropriate. So, one is an escapist all-ages fantasy, one is a realistic drama. Both could be but in the genre 'war film'. Batman is an escapist all-ages fantasy, and Watchmen is a realistic drama. You might argue that Batman (at least today) is a realistic drama. I say then Batman shouldn't be...
@ComicBookSyndicate The difference is those films have ratings. Comics don't really have ratings. I have suggest they should. That's what I said in my very first comment to this video. I also feel that it would be fine for characters like Batman to have at least 2 separate titles with 2 separate ratings. One would be for you, Mr. Cooke, and children. The other would be for more mature readers like myself. To limit Batman to one small audience would be wrong.
Now this is a good idea, and something I've long felt should happen. Kinda like what Marvel has with their Ultimate line, until their main line began to out-Ultimate the Ultimate line (X-Men death squads, Sentry ripping a guy in two). Question: which one gets to be the main line? Your "mature" funny books, or the "kids" books?
@toekneebeeears I did enjoy Batman: Year One by Frank Miller. It was a realistic approach to Batman, containning violence, sex and political corruption. But it was all appropriate for children (Comics Code Approved!). The only thing I did not like was Miller's transformation of Catwoman into a prostitute. So, that Batman comic is as far as I think it should go. Why? Because realism-like aging characters--is a slippery slope for superheroes best left to self contained stories like Watchmen...
@toekneebeeears The realism in Watchmen was appropriate for Watchmen, but it is not appropriate for Batman. You can only take 'realism' so far before you have to remind yourself that you dealing with a character that wears his underwear on the outside.
@toekneebeeears So, Batman can deal with adult themes , its not easy to deal with it in a 'realistic' way, and that is the downfall of 21st Century superheroes. That's why Alan Moore, the pioneer of the movement, has tried to reverse that trend. Tom Strong and LOEG (ABC Comics) are fun escapist (and well done) superhero comics. Grant Morrison is trying too (JLA, All-Star Superman, Batman Inc.). And for my money, I'll take Knight and Squire over the Goddman Batman any day!
@ComicBookSyndicate When Batman was created in the late 30's he smoked a pipe, wore a gun on a holster on his belt, and even killed people. Batman has change since then. The times change and comics must change with them. They can not stay in the past. It's fine that you prefer Knight and Squire. But, it's wrong for you and Mr.Cooke to try to take All-Star Batman, Identity Crisis, and Watchman away from me.
People like to focus on these arguments from time to time: "But Batman shot people with guns and Superman threw people from helicopters back in the day." True. However, (a) that was for relatively a very brief part of their existence. You won't find Batman and Superman doing much killing from the early 40's onward, where (b) these characters have been at their most iconic. Furthermore, (c) these changes were made by the creators of the characters themselves.
@VanguardSupreme Agreed. Golden Age comics were, for the most part, rushed, poorly written and disposable. Of course I love the GA Superman Batman, but since then, writers have refined their characters, themes and origins. Batman doesn't use guns and Superman doesn't kill.
Also, according to Batman Inc. #4, Batman really did have a Bat-Hound named Ace and a cousin (!) named Batmwoman. Hey, we all have cousins and dogs these days, so Grant Morrison is keeping Batman up to date with the times!
You're being very dramatic about this. No one's taking anything away from you. Some people just want better written stories. And the fact that you're still mentioning Watchmen indicates you're missing the point. Hasn't CBS acknowledged that he likes 2/3 of the works you mentioned? By that measure, I should be prattling on about how Mr. Meltzer should stop bastardizing JLA members and compromising the integrity of DCU for me, since Identity Crisis was NOT an Elseworlds.
@VanguardSupreme I may have dramatic but sometime you have to be dramatic to get your point across. That point being that superhero comics are constantly changing. They will never be the same as they were when we were kids. Nor should they. It's boring if they never change. I'm remedied of that song Centerfold. Superheros can't stay that innocent girl forever. Spider-man can't stay single and in high school forever. Clark Gable said "Damn ! " in 1939. Isn't about time that Batman said it ?
@ephraimmorrison I was confused as to why Batman saying " I'm the god damn Batman ! " was so controversial. I could not see how it was a big deal. I was unaware of Superman saying "Damn". Thank you for letting me know. I'm going to have to look that up.
@toekneebeeears I don't know the context of Superman saying 'damn', but here's the full line from All-Star Batman: "What, are you dense? Are you retarded or something? Who the hell do you think I am? I'm the Goddamn Batman."
So, here, wildly out of character, Batman insults his future ward twice ('retarded'? Really, Frank?) and comes off as narcissistic, which he isn't. Anyone who's read Batman for the past 75 years knows this.
Its the CONTEXT that it is used that make this ridiculous.
@ComicBookSyndicate Not this again. I thought we settled this. Anyway, the thing is Mr. Cooke said "I don't want to see Batman swear." As if Batman swearing is the thing he has a problem with. He did not say "I don't want to see Batman act narcissistic." Again, All-Star Batman is an alternate reality Batman out of continuity with the rest of the DCU which excuses any changes Mr. Miller cares to make. Let's just say I don't have a problem with it but, you do. Can we agree to disagree ?
@toekneebeeears Man, you better agree to disagree b/c everyone's getting real peeved of you derailing this thread with your repetitive 'IT'S JUST AN ALTI-VERSE STORY' rant. On an on like a raving parrot, you better move on to something completely different.
@toekneebeeears Superman said "Damn you, Luthor!" in response to the first exposure to his Kryptonite ring, if I recall correctly.
I do agree with some of Cooke's points; I think the issue is not one of restoring "Hey kids! Comics!", but blurring the line too much between heroes and the world they are supposedly attempting to change for the better.
@toekneebeeears Mr. Cooke is not advocating censorship, so why should you be bothered that he swore in this video? He's advocating talent, and above all, good taste. For any writer to take on the responsibility of a 70 year old character, shouldn't they be required to have both?
@ComicBookSyndicate Why should I be bothered that he swore in this video ? Because I believe people should practice what they preach. The fact that he swore when he said that Batman should not swear makes him a hypocrite.
@toekneebeeears But Darwyn Cooke is not a superhero. He's talking about superhero comics, not everyday speech. I'm sure your teachers in grade school went home and swore and cursed, and had sex with their spouses, but they didn't do it at the front of the classroom. There's a time and place for everything.
@ComicBookSyndicate Yes there is a time and place for everything. Out in public, on a video for the whole world to see is not the place or time to swear. Especially right after condemning swearing in the exact same video.
@ComicBookSyndicate Like you said, there is a time and place for everything. Mr. Cooke swore in public and on a video easily heard by young people. The very same young people he is tiring to protect from Batman's so very fowl mouth. That makes him a hypocrite. I bring it up so you see how ironic and full of hypocrisy his crusade truly is.
@toekneebeeears Okay, I understand your point, but I still think its fine to apply different standards to your own spoken words as an artist doing an interview. There's a huge difference between what any business owner would do in the privacy of his own versus what he would allow in his place of business. He would demand that his employees dress a certain way, act a certain way, or speak a certain way. But this person wearing a suit and tie at home in his swimming pool.
@ComicBookSyndicate I'm glad you understand my point. That is exactly the point I was tiring to get across to you. If Mr.Cooke did a privet interview with you (that was not posted where anybody of any age can see it) and he swore, I would be a little more accepting of it. At least we can agree on something.
@ComicBookSyndicate Finally, think about YOUR reaction if you were watching a Star Wars or Harry Potter film, an episode of Dr. Who or Star Trek, and were suddenly treated to full frontal nudity, graphic gory depiction of violence, or curse words like f***, s*** or whatever. Wouldn't that seem out of place?
Why then, is it okay to do so in a superhero comic, which is intended for the exact same audience?
Y'know, there was a time I'd disagree with him because superhero comics are meant to be deadly serious stuff, or something. Then I realised, these are grown men and women in colouful tights who run around punching people while calling themselves goofy names like [Something] Man/Woman. Not exactly the type of stories that lend themselves to "mature" storytelling 40+ manboys like them to be.
People should outgrow comics when they turn 18, and if they're still reading past that age, more power to them. But to suggest that these inherently fun, imaginative, but ultimately silly narratives should cater to their tastes as they get older...well, does that mean we should expect superhero comics to be like Matlock and Golden Girls when they're still reading these stories 20 years from now looking for their superhero fix?
@VanguardSupreme I'm sure you mean SUPERHERO comics. People don't outgrow music, TV, theatre or novels, so they shouldn't outgrow comics either.
Superheroes can be read by people older than 18, the same way adults can still enjoy classic Disney films, or the original Star Wars trilogy. They're for the whole family!
The absurdity of the genre makes them appropriate for fantasy/sci-fi escapism, and not appropriate for the ridiculous pretensions imposed on them by people like Bendis and Johns.
Yes, I did mean superhero comics. I usually try to make that distinction, but it seems I failed to do that here. But yeah, I agree with everything you said. It's what I was getting at, except much more clumsily. People (young males) are quick write off all-ages works as childish, not realising themselves the childishness that goes into that kind of thinking.
Let me put it this way: Between G-rated Toy Story 3 and PG-13 Transformers 2, one appealed to my adult sensibilities.
wow, that sounds like he wants almost all older comic fans to fuck off. I agree with a lot of what he said about All Star Batman and a lot of dark shit in comics, but he puts Alex Ross to shame. Its like he's suggesting that the silver age should not just come back in full force but also end any kind of maturity in comics. I hate the overly dark and grim shit of the 90's, but is the solution to leave all of the fans like me who got into comics for good mature storylines out in the cold?
He's absolutely right. I think it's all the attempts to make comic books dark and cool is why the fan image of comics went from kids to 45 year old manchildren. Superheroes are ridiculous in that fun, cool way. Trying to make dark does not appease normal adults or children.
@SoundArrows I agree 100%. Superhero comics should take a page from The Adventures of Robin Hood (with Errol Flynn) or the Indiana Jones films--slightly tongue-in-cheek heroes in all-ages adventures. Other than deconstructionist works like Watchmen (authored by exceptional writers), muscle-bound men in leotards are not adaptable to the (im)mature treatment they receive from today's literal minded writers.
@ComicBookSyndicate@therudeboy77 As the guardians of 70 year old American icons, DC Comics should be a little bit more strict about who they let write their characters. Batman is a vigilante that fights to protect innocent people from crime. Frank Miller turned him into a psychotic idiot. The solution is to hire a better writer.
Theres plenty of room for dark comic books, but there's no room for trashy, childish, amateur shock tactics when you're writing the most popular superhero in the world.
If you read All-Star Batman & Robin the Boy Wonder you would see Batman protecting Dick Grayson from the corrupt cops who were going to beat him so that he wouldn't talk and identify the killer of his parents. Frank Miller is also not afraid to show Batman with shades of grey.
There is room for superhero comic books which someone might not like and might consider trashy and bad taste. It's freedom of the press.
@ComicBookSyndicate I'm usually tough on today's creators, but Darwyn is one of the best to come down the pike in 20 years. What he's saying is let them make NEW characters if they want to do all those dark, creepy genres. But don't screw up the already established good ones. One example is the crappy way they let the movie morons make a half dozen well-known white characters suddenly "black" overnight. Total rubbish!
@themredweirdoshow Yes, create the Squadron Supreme, Watchmen or Authority to deal with that stuff. Superman, however, is the Champion of the Oppressed, not an executioner (via John Byrne), and not a boring yuppie (via Mike Carlin's entire run as editor).
As for changing ethnicities, I actually don't mind it. Fans are resistant to new characters, and its hard to suddenly create a new character and insert him into a 75 year old franchise. I have no issue with Pete Ross, Kingpin or even Rip-Cord.
@ComicBookSyndicate "It's hard" to create new characters? That's no excuse at all. It was much harder to do so back in the days when there was NO "75 year old franchise" to glide along on. Changing ethnicities, sexual orientation and the like is totally obscene and defeats the purpose of creating those characters in a particular way in the first place. Same goes for turning the Black Panther white, making Alicia and Daredevil sighted, etc. Like Cooke indicates, it's just blatant unoriginality!
@themredweirdoshow Its hard because the public will not accept new characters. Grant Morrison created tons of great characters in his Doom Patrol run. What happened to them? They were written out, because of the belief that the public wants the 'basics' team of Robotman and Co.
When Fox makes their next Spider-man movie, will they use The Foreigner, The Rose or Silver Sable? Those are characters I grew up with the 80s. They won't...they'll use the classic Ditko/Lee villians from the 60s.
@themredweirdoshow (pt. 2) In fact, I cant think of a single character created by Marvel or DC since the late 70s that has made it to an animated or live action adaptation (Wolverine and Punisher for Marvel, and Firestorm for DC. Those were the last ones).
So, knowing that creators and readers reject new characters, its seems the only to slip minority characters into superhero comics is to give them pre-existing monickers created for white characters. Not ideal, but its a compromise.
@themredweirdoshow (Pt. 3) By the way, isn't it strange that every single "alien" from the planet Krypton looks like they're descended from Northern Europeans? Fair skin, blonde or brown hair all around. Interesting...
@SuperWolsey Youtube is too confusing to navigate, so I'm not sure what comment you're referring too. I'm assuming its Morrison's drastic changes to Batman?
I love Morrison, but I don't like Bruce Wayne's public announcement about funding Batman one bit. It WILL be retconned, trust me.
Bruce Wayne should be Batman, but we all know this is just temporary (at least its no Azrael). Typically, I wouldn't like Batman time travelling, but GM's whole run has been dabbling in 50s sci-fi, so its fine.
@SuperWolsey On paper, I don't like many of the concepts, but its still the most unpredictable, exciting Batman storyline in years, maybe even decades. The only other writers that have come close to this are Ed Brubaker, Jim Starlin and Frank Miller (Year One), and that's going waaay back.
Darwyn Cooke sounds like Fredric Wertham here. I'm against censorship. There's room for dark and sexual comic books amid at adults like All-Star Batman & Robin the Boy Wonder/Dark Knight Boy Wonder and lighter wholesome kid friendly comic books like Batman The Brave and The Bold as well.
@therudeboy77 You're against censorship? Don't be so modest. Censorship is a double-edge weapon used & abused for the ones who suits their wants of the petty over their needs of the many.
@Comicbooksyndicate And I will defend Geoff Johns till I can't speak or type because he is one of the premier writers and has a great love for comics and superheroes and has topped himself as the scale of his work gets larger
@ Comicbooksyndicate And I will defend Geoff Johns till I can't speak or type because he is one of the premier writers and has a great love for comics and superheroes and has topped himself as the scale of his work gets larger
@KalEL224 I think he's a decent writer, and I admire him for bringing back much of the 1960s elements into Superman, but I don't understand his use of gratuitous violence. Why did the Phantom Lady have to meet her end by being impaled with a 10 foot long phallic symbol driving through her breasts? Why couldn't she die heroically, the way the Flash did?
Also, he helped destroy the 80s JLI by killing Blue Beetle and destroying Max Lord's character. Not much respect for characters there.
@comicbooksyndicate Sorry but there have always been more then 1 versions of characters till 86 earth 1-infinity and various letters. So for there to be a Earth 1 version an Ulitmate edition over in marvel makes sense. I refuse to believe that superheroes we all grew up reading have to stay stuck in time and become unreadable after you hit puberty. I don't want to read ABC comics i want to read Superman and see the stories evolve not be stagnant Johns did a great job with this
@KalEL224 What about All-Star Superman? The imagination and magic of the 1960s, but with better dialogue and deeper themes. Judging by the dozens of awards its won, I would say that is a true 'adult' superhero comic. But there's not a boob or amputated limb in sight. That's a good example of Superman 'evolving'.
Marrying him off to Lois is not evolving. Its falling pray to the same problem that destroys any serial fiction: aging the character.
@ComicBookSyndicate since when is getting married aging a character? u can get married at any age as long as u r over 18 (16 in some states) so i don't subscribe to that theory. Him marrying lois i think gave way to better stories so that they didn't have to treat this nobel prize winning journalist like an idiot and not realize Clark and Superman where the same person. Batman having a love life with Catwoman i am all for it.
@KalEL224 The average age for marriage in the United States is 25. So, if you're over 25, you can relate, if you're younger, it is something associated with age.
@ComicBookSyndicate sorry don't subscribe to that either. When superman got married I got it and loved it i was 13. And all the little quips that they have as a married couple I got then and even appreciate more now. So sorry marriage is not something "you'll get when you're older" a good story like u keep saying is a good story. only thing i didn't like was when they dragged out them getting down the isle
@KalEL224 If you think superheroes should age, where do you stop? Spider-man gets married. Then...has kids? Then...dies? See the problem? YOU might want him married, but your grandfather might think Spider-man should be in a nursing home so HE can relate to him. But, superheroes are not for him, or you, or me. They're for everyone. And Spider-man's original concept was to be a teenage superhero, and I wish he stayed that way.
The Peanuts gang never aged, why should superheroes?
@ComicBookSyndicate Superheros grow to get new audiences my grandfather stopped reading comics back when it was still at the level u want it. So in your words you want to have Superheros be stuck in this level of stupidity and not acknowledge the world around them? Thats why they grow and age so writers can create new stories. How many times can you have superman beat evil scientist lex luthor and have a belly laugh with jimmy and lois as lex says "Curses foiled again?"
@KalEL224 I don't want supervillians to say 'curses, foiled again', anymore than I want Darth Vader to say "curses, foiled again'. Fantasy, sci-fi and superhero stories can deal with deep, psychological themes--like just fairy tales, myths and religion can. But to mix a mythological story like King Arthur with a graphic sex scene seems to miss the purpose of the story.
@KalEL224 I think a myth or fable works on a symbolic level, so while its fine to imply sex or gory violence (like in Gothic horror), i don't think showing the gory details works. It doesn't fit the scale of the story.
I don't think old comics are "stupid" at all. If they were, they why do Moore, Morrison, Gaiman, Waid and Busiek draw so much inspiration from them? Sure, they can be improved upon, but there was never so much imagination as there was in the glory days of the 1960s.
@ComicBookSyndicate I don't subcribe to saying that there is more imagination in the 60s then now. Their "imagination" was based on lack of scientific knowledge. Now that the world has gotten smaller you need to imagine in different areas. Sex can be implied and it is implied in books The rape of sue dibney was not shown in graphic detail but the lead up and fall out was. As for King Arthur read King Author vs Dracula and get back to me
@KalEL224 By imagination, I mean the writers ability to come up with the ideas that have been used for the past 40 years worth of stories. For example,Chameleon,Doctor Octopus,Electro,Green Goblin, Hammerhead,Hydro-man, Kingpin, Kraven, Lizard, Mysterio, Sandman, Shocker, Tinkerer, and the Vulture were all created in the 1960s Spider-man comics. These villians outshine all others, partly because there have not been anyone as creative as Steve Ditko and Stan Lee that have worked on the book, imo.
@ComicBookSyndicate so you want writers to resuse ideas that have come before? Really? that is the opposite of imagination. War of the Supermen new idea. Blackest Night new idea. Civil war not new but fleshes out the whole Fredick Worthem case of the 50s. So there is plenty imagination left in superhero books its just not dumbed down so it preaches to little kids to brush their teeth and respect officer friendly.
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@ComicBookSyndicate Batman: TAS by itself isn't the problem, but giving an arrogant, biased producer/writer/artist a free pass on illiterate, juvenile, hack writing DC Superheroes in a show like JLA just because he or she was faithfully, passionate in adapting the Batman Mythos into TAS is the problem. That's truly not being a DC fan, that's being an immature drone if not a hypocritical one.
Diakron79 1 month ago
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Diakron79 1 month ago
tell it like it is
zambot3 1 month ago
This vid went viral on Bamako
lavernlarsen48 1 month ago
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Your video went viral on Pretoria
craigclay821 1 month ago
yeah, fuck you frank miller!!!
WeasleyDodds 2 months ago
Im a sixteen year old guy, and i wanted to get into DC comics since i started watching JLA Unlimited on TV when I was younger; So i hear about this reboot and I think "Awesome now i can finally get into them! No confusing back-history just new crap!". Then i got Detective Comics #1... what poorly written trash that was, And the fans love it! It was horrible, the dialogue was disgusting and so was the ending. How am I suppose to get into comics if they're to "mature" for me to bring to my house!
ApivotZ 3 months ago
@ApivotZ DC shot themselves in the foot with some of their pathetic attempts to be "mature". Superheroes are an absurd fantasy genre best suited for all-ages stories.
I would recommend the 'Batman' title by Scott Snyder and 'Action Comics' by Grant Morrison for a better example of what DC can do.
ComicBookSyndicate 3 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate Thanks for the recommendations. I honestly dont think traditional comics like super heroes will make it for the next two generations unless they make an effort to create books for teens and young adults.
Maybe they can start making monthly anthology comics aimed at the people who watch they're cartoon network shows. Like Viz media did for that Naruto TV show; Make a deal with Walmart to get the book in the magazine section, or something.
ApivotZ 3 months ago
@ApivotZ Comic books have skipped (at least) one full generation. Kids that grew up in the late 90s and 00s had almost no exposure to comics. This has nothing to do with competition from video games; it has to do with DC and Marvel producing confusing, trashy comics for the direct market, that are unavailable to any readers outside of the tiny niche of comic shops.
The DC Reboot is a step in the right direction, but time will tell of its long term effects...
ComicBookSyndicate 3 months ago
@ApivotZ agreed with the "Batman" recommendation. It's mature in the true sense of the word: mature storytelling laced with intense action, and not the overly violent and gruesome kind in Detective and others.
TB492 2 months ago
Darwyn Cooke is so awesome.
MylesMore4U 4 months ago
@MylesMore4U Yes, he is.
ComicBookSyndicate 4 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate Also, J Bone confirmed in a statement he WASN'T talking about Batwoman, with regards to the lesbian comment, which he thinks is a "first rate" comic. I dunno if that was pointed out but I just had to check up on that!
MylesMore4U 4 months ago
@MylesMore4U Somewhere among these 284 comments, that post by J. Bone was quoted. Cooke also made it clear that he had nothing against homosexuality, only with taking a pre-existing character and changing their orientation for shock value.
ComicBookSyndicate 4 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate Aye, i'm still iffy on the idea myself of a sexual orientation change, though admittdly nor totally against the idea, but my main hatred is against pathetic attempts at shock value using violence or rape, it really is disgraceful that Bruce Timm's DCAU is more mature than the comics.
MylesMore4U 3 months ago
@MylesMore4U By which I mean properly mature, not just called mature for using sailor language!
MylesMore4U 3 months ago
@MylesMore4U Bruce Timm's DCAU is far from maturity than you realize.
Diakron79 1 month ago
@MylesMore4U It's also disgraceful that Bruce Timm gave superheroines like Wonder Woman a bad name which to me explains All-Star Batman & Robin TBW.
Diakron79 1 month ago
@Diakron79 I said MORE mature, not that its the holy shrine of enlightenment, its a cartoon! But it's undeniably better than most of the trash DC churns out, and its consistantly enjoyable. How did he give Wonder Woman a bad name, just wondering? And that has exactly nothing to do with ASB&R. The main explanation for ASB&R's crappiness is that Frank Miller cant write anymore, thats no one else's fault, I mean the guy farted out dick head propaganda Holy Terror.
MylesMore4U 1 month ago
@MylesMore4U You made it seem like it's some holy grail of DC. If it's just a cartoon, then please tell the misguided fanatics that. Timm foolishly smeared the WW mythos @ Day1. Instead of a promoting a wise, compassionate, Utopian leader-like superheroine, he derailed the mythos by giving us an angry, warmongering, female chauvinstic stereotype who was submissive to Batman for no apparent reason. That's not Wonder Woman, that's Red Sonja! Thus making this less wonderful.
Diakron79 1 month ago
@MylesMore4U I don't mind any change, as long as its not done for cheap thrills.
ComicBookSyndicate 1 month ago
the mouth on him gees, but he does raise a great point. how are kids suppose to learn how to be fan boys like i am if they have things like women being raped by dr light or batwoman becoming lesbian, and batman banging every female superhero there is. i remember when batman didnt bang anyone it was only bruce getting tail
tereuo 6 months ago
Batman has always worked best when held to a self-imposed higher standard.
Also, aside from the comics morality issues, the more 'human' Batman becomes, the more the inevitable question arises: "Why doesn't he just KILL all the costumed homicidal maniacs in his Rogue's Gallery...beginning with The Joker?"
ephraimmorrison 6 months ago
He makes a great point about it. Now when he says the Lesbian part, however, I think of Wonder Woman. Somebody should make her Lesbian or at least bi-sexual due to the fact that she's from an all female society. Don't you think that if you lived in a society with one gender that homosexuality would be not only encouraged but also thought as normal? That's just my thought. Anyways, big fan of his work. Magnificent artist.
SuperMrONeill 7 months ago
@SuperMrONeill Alan Moore touched on this when he did 'Glory' for Awesome Comics. Glory was Rob Liefeld's (!) Wonder Woman doppleganger, and Moore pointed out that if she came from a island populated only by women, homosexuality would have been the only option.
ComicBookSyndicate 6 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate Yes, but that was only one issue, I believe. Leave it to Moore to point out stuff like that. Remember, this is the very same person who criticized Miller for his part in 300 where Leonidas calls the Athenians "Little boy lovers."
SuperMrONeill 6 months ago
@SuperMrONeill Well, i think Miller deserved to be criticized. Since both Spartans and Athenians were Greek, we know both states were openly homosexual (as was everyone then, we presume), so Frank Miller's quip came across as homophobic.
ComicBookSyndicate 6 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate Y'know what? You just earned yourself a sub (the kind you can't eat though).
SuperMrONeill 6 months ago
I loved his DC: The New Frontier enough that I wrote a review of the series. Check it out by doing a Google search for ''squidoo Darwyn Cooke''
goldenrulecomics 7 months ago
Cooke should start his own independent comics Press. He is absolutely right here, and he has terrific creative sensibilities.
ephraimmorrison 7 months ago
darwyn cooke is a bit of a curmudgeon isnt he? The problem with the industry is not that superheroes have gotten more explicit, its that superheroes are not relevant and were not a good idea to begin with. Teams of costumed crimefighters is a shallow, absurd idea that should have been finished after watchmen. The industry needs to branch out, you can see the success of books from vertigo and things like the walking dead and hellboy (who is not a superhero in the traditional sense).
mittROMNEY666 10 months ago
@mittROMNEY666 "not a good idea" and "not relavant" are relative expressions. Billions of dollars in ticket sales for Dark Knight, Iron Man, Spider-Man and X-men movies would refute your claims.
I do agree they are 'absurd', but not shallow. All-Star Superman, Doom Patrol and Animal Man by Grant Morrison, as well as Supreme and the ABC line by Alan Moore prove that. In the right hands, this genre is as limitless as any myth, fairy tale, or religion.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate Fair enough. But I still think it is a problem that any one genre should dominate the industry to the extent that superheroes do. And personally, I cant get past the absurdity. Superheroes are often considered modern mythology, but I find that actual mythology such as Norse , Celtic and Greek is far more compelling, more visually interesting, and more sublime. For tastes like mine, us comics have little to offer. But I do love comics, I just have to get them from abroad.
mittROMNEY666 10 months ago
@mittROMNEY666 I do agree that 'serious' superhero comics should have been 'finished' after Watchmen. The same way Sergio Leone destroyed the myth of the American western film, Alan Moore destroyed the myth of the American superhero. It cannot be applied to real life. This is why Bendis and Johns will always fail. They are trying to deal with realistic, pretentious subject matter using characters that wear capes and masks.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@mittROMNEY666 Also, I agree that ancient myth is more compelling for the most part, but superheroes have the potential to be as great, and in the few examples I mentioned above, they have come close.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@mittROMNEY666 I agree. I love super hero comics too,but I wish that the American comic book industry had more variety in terms of genre. super heroes completely dominate comics here,and I sometimes find myself wondering how much longer it can go on. DC and Marvel comics have been around longer than most of us have been alive. someday I'd like to see a definitive end for these characters.
TheSlickAndroid 6 months ago
Uh-oh. This debate is steering into "For the Children" territory. To put it in perspective, I don't have much of a problem with a certain amount of adult content in superhero stories. It's the exploitation of what readers have come to believe to be adult material and conflating it with mature storytelling that grates me. I do believe kids can handle most things you show them, or it goes over their heads anyway, so it doesn't matter much. For me, it's not about the kids - it's about taste.
VanguardSupreme 10 months ago
I agree. The death knell of 'exploitation' for me was the JLA cover of Speedy with the bloody stumps for arms. I couldn't hear what he was saying but it was probably something like "Will you take superheroes seriously NOW?"
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate
That's hilarious. From the look of it, he was yelling pretty loudly. Between Cry for Justice and Rise of Arsenal 2010 has been the nadir of DC superheroes. Sad.
VanguardSupreme 10 months ago
I kinda disagree with Darwyn Cooke. I don't think comics are meant for just only young people. I feel that comics should be made for all different ages. There should be a rating system like movies and video games. I think it's ironic that he does not want to hear Batman swearing yet he is bleeped twice in this video.
toekneebeeears 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears Mr. Cooke is referring to superhero comics specifically, but I don't think he's against comics for adults--he's against comics for immature perverts. The extreme violence and cheap shock value that writers use for their (im)mature take on superheroes would be an embarrassment in any other field.
Why equate 'realism' with "dark, cynical and violent". Does 'mature' mean graphic depictions of sex? Why not deal with mature themes and stories instead. That's far more challenging.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate What about Watchmen ? It's a superhero comic with graphic depictions of sex, extreme violence, nudity, fowl language, rap, homosexuality, and genocide. Yet it is highly regarded as a great piece of comic book literature. How is it any different then these comics you clam to be for "immature perverts" ?
toekneebeeears 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears There's a differencce between the sex and violence portrayed in 'A Clockwork Orange' and '2 Fast 2 Furious'. One is exploring the causes and ramifications of violence and rape, one is exploiting it for the titillation of an audience. The same goes for Watchmen vs. Spawn.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate So are you saying that some sex and violence is acceptable in superhero comics ? If so, how is that determined ? Where do you draw the line ? How do you determine what is perverted and what is not ?
toekneebeeears 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears The same thing that determines it for any other medium: the talent of the creator and, like I said, the intent of the author.
The gratuitous sex scenes in the 1990s Green Arrow comic are not 'evil', and they would be appropriate in any Hollywood romantic comedy. But what do they have to do with a man that dresses in leotards to fight crime? In escapist fantasy?
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate Green Arrow is a millionaire playboy. That's part of his character. Why is sex acceptable in a romantic comedy but not a superhero comic ? Are superheroes not allowed to have sex ? must they be celibate monks ?
toekneebeeears 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears Superhero sex can be shown the same place that Superhero bowel movements are shown--off panel! Its a fantasy genre, and some things are best left to our imagination.
If Mike Grell wants to depict kinky sex, he's free to do it with his own characters, not at DC Icon that kids wear on their underoos.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears Watchmen isn't escapist fantasy. Its a deconstruction of the superhero genre. This is why Snyder's film failed. We are not supposed to participate in the adventures like a typical superhero story (or action film). So using Matrix-style slow motion shows Snyder's misunderstanding of Moore's intent. He was trying to give psychological motivation to someone dressing up in colourful tights and fighting crime. IN THE REAL WORLD.
Marvel and DC characters do not inhabit the real world.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate Watchmen is still a story with superheroes.It is escapist fantasy. Watchmen did not take place in the real world either. Richard Nixon was not precedent in the 80's. With all the slow motion effects in the movie, the basic story is still the same. Nothing significant was changed. The movie did give psychological motivation to superheroes.
toekneebeeears 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears Its a duplication of the real world, with some changes. Of course its not the 'real world', its paper and ink. But the world of Watchmen is closer to reality than Superman's Metropolis. The latter is obviously intended as a fairy tale like, idealized 'big city'. Watchmen deals with politics, war, violence rape, in a realistic way. Superman comics do not (though I would prefer to see a return to the 'champion of the oppressed' Superman that fought for social justice).
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate
So true. Why do people fail to realise this point? I think Alan Moore himself would be the first to tell you that Watchmen is NOT a superhero comic book story; it's a comic book story with superheroes in it. It's not meant to be anything like Superman or Batman or Spider-Man or The Hulk. Even the format of the story (12 issues as opposed to ongoing serial). You can tell Snyder missed the point when he gave the characters flashy costumes and kung-fu moves.
VanguardSupreme 10 months ago
@VanguardSupreme I will disagree that Watchmen took place in the real world, however. It didn't. It had electric cars and metropolitan blimps and a bunch of wacky stuff. So it was pretty fantastical. Even its much-touted psychological realism is tweaked with archetypal characters like Rorschach and Ozymandias. It was just that it was willing to go places a conventional superhero wouldn't, or couldn't, or shouldn't, hence the sense of realism. At least, that's how I've always looked at it.
VanguardSupreme 10 months ago
@VanguardSupreme Precisely. Slow motio? Techno soundtrack? He blew it.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears Marvel and DC (under the leadership of Bendis and Johns) portray magic, gods, science fiction and that other strange fantasy genre that makes no sense to anyone but us: superheroes. In this world, they used escapist conventions like secret identities and capes, which are leftovers from a genre created for readers seeking escape from the war, or power fantasy as youths.
This is fine. I love superheroes.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears But don't publish stories of escapist fantasy that is clearly meant for children, and then impale Phantom Lady through her breasts on a giant metal spear.And while there is plenty of room for violence in these stories (to avoid violence would be a lie, like the old G.I.JOE cartoon), the above example does not show Geoff Johns maturity, it shows an unhealthy thirst for blood. You might say he has an issue with women.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears All this criticism could be leveled against Moore as well, and it has. His treatment of Batgirl has been viewed as misogynistic. Perhaps it should have been shown off panel? Maybe its not appropriate for a superhero comic. But, at the very least, the intention is clear: to contrast Joker's current state of mind versus his pre-Joker self. This brought Joker to a new level of menace. What did John's ruthless murder of Phantom Lady accomplish? One panel of cheap thrills.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears The current post-Watchmen landscape at DC and Marvel has been engineered by a generation of writers all imitating Alan Moore and Frank Miller's 80s work, but many of them don't have the talent to execute it, or the wisdom to realize how silly they look. Even Moore backtracked on his treatment of superheroes and bounced back with Supreme, Youngblood and Glory for Maximum/Awesome, and later Tom Strong and LOEG for ABC.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears Along with Grant Morrison's JLA, New X-men and All-Star Superman, we finally see the 'state of the art' of superhero comics: time travel, aliens, parallel worlds, intelligent animals...but done WELL. I'm not advocating a direct return to the Silver Age. I believe comics have to adapt. In the hands of Moore, Morrison, and a few others they have.
Bendis, Johns and all the rest have the pretensions of Alan Moore, without the imagination, wit, or grasp of the medium to back it up.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate Talent and good taste are both a matter of opinion not fact. Who are you or Mr. Cooke to deny Bendis or Johns the right to tell the stories they want to tell ?
toekneebeeears 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears I'm the reader, and I judge their talents to be less than stellar. Its all subjective I suppose, but a non-comics readers opinion might be handy. Why don't you ask one of your non-comics friends what they think?
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears I have tradition on my side. 70 years of Batman stories don't portray Batman swearing or feeding Robin rats. Doing so betrays his character.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate Again, All-star Batman is not the real Batman. All-star Batman is an alternate Batman that has nothing to do with the real Batman. Just like All-star Superman has a separate continuity from the real Superman. Would you say that Owlman betrays Batman's character ? How about Superman: Red Son, does that betray superman's character by making him a communist ? How about the millions other of alternate Superman and Batman characters.
toekneebeeears 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears SHORT VERSION: No one would even BLINK if Darwyn Cooke said his above statement in regards to Harry Potter, Indiana Jones, Lord of the Rings or Star Wars. Comic book readers seem to require violence and sex to justify them reading escapist fantasy. Why? If we can all read and watch Harry Potter and feel no shame in participating in an experience clearly aimed at younger readers/viewers, why do we need superheroes to depict "adult" situations in order for us to enjoy them?
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate The fact is that these characters are adults. They should act like adults, even though they were colorful tights. And some adults have sex and commit violent acts. I am not against kid friendly superhero comics. However, I am against limiting the fan-base to only children. Why can't there be superhero stories for both adults and younger people ? I say make both and let the fans decide what they want to buy.
toekneebeeears 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears I agree with your last statement. Superheroes can act like adults, and have sex, and commit acts of violence. But there is a limit to the detail and realism appropriate to the genre. Alan Moore, Garth Ennis, Grant Morrison and Warren Ellis create their own characters when they want to deal with 'adult' situations. DC and Marvel superheroes for BOTH adults and young people. So, they have to be written well for adults, and avoid graphically depicting certain adult situations.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate I do feel that DC and Marvel superhero comics avoid graphically depicting certain adult situations. Take Sue Dibny's rape in Identity Crisis for example( which is the rape I assume Cooke is talking about). Nothing was shown. Everything was implied. Or Batman sewering in All Star Batman & Robin the Boy Wonder. That is an alternate universe Batman. It is not in continuity with the regular Batman comics. He is not the real Batman. It does not count.
toekneebeeears 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears All-Star Batman was not some or Vertigo spin-off, it was the best selling comic of the 21st Century (at least #1 was). It was spearheaded as the Batman for average fans, that non-comics readers understand without reading 70 years of Batman continuity. So, its more 'real' than the Knighquest/Hush/BatmanInc. character of the regular line, I would argue. If All-Star Batman was not 'real' they should have given him an unrecognizable costume, to differentiate him from the real one.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate Regardless, All-Star Batman is still an alternate Batman. The All-Star logo should be enough to know that book is not in the regular continuity. For those non-comic readers, I say buyer be ware. Ultimate Spider-man is not the real Spider-man and his costume is exactly the same as the real one.
toekneebeeears 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears As for Identity Crisis (an excellent story), I wonder if the story could have been exactly the same by replacing Sue Dibny's rape with her murder.
If you go back and read those 1960s Elongated Man stories, its a been embarrassing to think this supporting character in a light hearted comedy/superhero strip has been exploited to make modern DC more 'realistic'. Again, imagine the same fate for Betty or Veronica. Its a bit silly.
But again, IC is a great comic.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate So, you're saying that it is more acceptable for kids to see murder in superhero comics than rape. If Mr.Cooke had his way we would not be able to read such excellent stories as Identity Crisis. He would call it perverted.
toekneebeeears 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears
Hate to but in, but I just saw this comment and was like, "Whaa--"?
There's a world of difference between murder and rape. Murder may occur for myriad reasons, and can be depicted or alluded to with varying degrees of intensity. Rape occurs in one way and for one reason ever as far as I know. There's so much psychological baggage that goes with rape as opposed to murder. Do we live in a world now when people can't tell the difference between one form of violence and another?
VanguardSupreme 10 months ago
@VanguardSupreme
And...Identity Crisis was an excellent story? I guess there's no accounting for taste. For me, the way Meltzer handled the rape of Sue Dibny in that story was ridiculously obtuse. For one thing, why is Sue Dibny of all people getting raped? But more importantly, the rape serves as a plot point and little more. They weren't capable of dealing with the trauma and consequences of the rape, and they didn't care to. That alone is enough for me to write it off as tacky and cheap.
VanguardSupreme 10 months ago
@VanguardSupreme I think Identity Crisis was a good comic (with the exception of the last issue). I do agree 100% that the rape of Sue Dibny was ridiculous and pointless. The EXACT story could have been told with an attempted murder (or something else). The flashbacks, the mind wipes, the mystery, everything.
It was (yet another) attempt by writers to graft 'mature' content onto a genre that doesn't require it.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate
Now that you mention it, Identity Crisis really had it's share of great moments. I particularly like the scene with Tim and Batman in the Batmobile racing to save his father. But the main story, with the rape and the OOC mindwiping...I couldn't deal with that. But that last issue...man, that reveal was spectacularly wacky. Oh well.
VanguardSupreme 10 months ago
@VanguardSupreme Many comics readers interpret these example (ie: Speedy's bloody stumps, sex in 'The Boys', excessive cursing) as proof that 'comics are for adults'. There plenty of comics for adults, but none of them have a 'Blackest Night' banner across the top.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@VanguardSupreme I was asking if ComicBookSyndicate thought that it is more acceptable for kids to see murder in superhero comics than rape. I'm not speaking for him but, from what I can gather from his comments the answer would be yes from him. I feel that either would be OK to be shown in a superhero comic for mature readers. Neither would be OK in a comic meant for younger readers.
toekneebeeears 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears Murder can be and has been portrayed in children's stories for centuries. Even BAMBI featured the murder of Bambi's mother. I think what VanguardSupreme is trying to say is that a child can understand murder. Infants witness the death of insects, pets and even loved ones. 'Alive' and 'dead' are simple (maybe painful) concepts to understand.
However, it is nearly impossible for a prepubescent child to understand sexual intercourse, let alone the motivation for rape.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate I don't think you give children enough credit. Sex is one of the most basic concepts there is. If any animal can understand it then children can. How old were you when you first asked "Where do I come from ? " It was probably the same age you asked "Why won't my old pet wake up ? " Both can be understood by children. Neither is easy to explain. One is not more acceptable than the other. I say both can be portrayed tastefully in superhero comics.
toekneebeeears 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears No, I can't back down on this. Rape (or child molestation) has no place in a fantasy adventure story. Children can ask about sex, but they cannot understand it, until they hit puberty.
Animals don't understand sex because they don't understand anything. They're animals.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate You just contradicted yourself. You said "Rape (or child molestation) has no place in a fantasy adventure story." Yet earlier you said "IC(Identity Crisis) is a great comic." Identity Crisis is a superhero comic that has rape in it's storyline. It also seems that you like Watchmen, another superhero comic involving rape in it's storyline. So I would conclude that you do think that rape has a place in a superhero comics.
toekneebeeears 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears @toekneebeeears Yes, its about taste and execution. I did say IC is a great comic, but then I said "the rape of Sue Dibny was ridiculous and pointless." So, no, I don't think it has a place. I also stating earlier (somewhere in here) that Watchmen is a deconstruction of superheroes, whereas Batman/Green Arrow/Spider-man just plain superheroes.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears Yes, its about taste and execution. I did say IC is a great comic, but then I said "the rape of Sue Dibny was ridiculous and pointless." So, no, I don't think it has a place. I also stating earlier (somewhere in here) that Watchmen is a deconstruction of superheroes, whereas Batman/Green Arrow/Spider-man just plain superheroes.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate I felt that Sue Dibny's rape was handled tastefully. Everything was implied. There was no nudity. I don't think the word "rape" even appeared in the comic. It was not pointless. Dr. Light had to commit a crime so horrendous to justify his mind-wipe. The reader needed to have extreme hate for Dr. Light. Running out of a bank with a bag that had $ on it was not going to cut it.
toekneebeeears 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears
So many things wrong with this...
VanguardSupreme 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears another example: there are 2 ways to do a story set in World War II. The 'escapist fantasy' way (Indiana Jones films), where the hero is an exaggerated persona that we identify with as a power fantasy. We participate in his fight against Nazis (ie: zombies, vampires, "bad guys") and feel satisfaction in defeating the enemy....
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears The other way in a film like 'The Pianist'. Cold blooded murder in the Holocaust is portrayed in vivid detail. It would not be appropriate to show Nazis tossing a cripple over a balcony in an Indiana Jones film. It would not be appropriate to show a Nazi putting his gun to the heads of five Jews and exploding their brains all over the snow in vivid detail-one after the other...
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears On the flip side, if Adrien Brody started punching his way out of the Warsaw Ghetto with a smile on his face and glint in his eye, with a John Williams theme song, this would also be inappropriate. So, one is an escapist all-ages fantasy, one is a realistic drama. Both could be but in the genre 'war film'. Batman is an escapist all-ages fantasy, and Watchmen is a realistic drama. You might argue that Batman (at least today) is a realistic drama. I say then Batman shouldn't be...
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate The difference is those films have ratings. Comics don't really have ratings. I have suggest they should. That's what I said in my very first comment to this video. I also feel that it would be fine for characters like Batman to have at least 2 separate titles with 2 separate ratings. One would be for you, Mr. Cooke, and children. The other would be for more mature readers like myself. To limit Batman to one small audience would be wrong.
toekneebeeears 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears
Now this is a good idea, and something I've long felt should happen. Kinda like what Marvel has with their Ultimate line, until their main line began to out-Ultimate the Ultimate line (X-Men death squads, Sentry ripping a guy in two). Question: which one gets to be the main line? Your "mature" funny books, or the "kids" books?
VanguardSupreme 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears I did enjoy Batman: Year One by Frank Miller. It was a realistic approach to Batman, containning violence, sex and political corruption. But it was all appropriate for children (Comics Code Approved!). The only thing I did not like was Miller's transformation of Catwoman into a prostitute. So, that Batman comic is as far as I think it should go. Why? Because realism-like aging characters--is a slippery slope for superheroes best left to self contained stories like Watchmen...
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears The realism in Watchmen was appropriate for Watchmen, but it is not appropriate for Batman. You can only take 'realism' so far before you have to remind yourself that you dealing with a character that wears his underwear on the outside.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears So, Batman can deal with adult themes , its not easy to deal with it in a 'realistic' way, and that is the downfall of 21st Century superheroes. That's why Alan Moore, the pioneer of the movement, has tried to reverse that trend. Tom Strong and LOEG (ABC Comics) are fun escapist (and well done) superhero comics. Grant Morrison is trying too (JLA, All-Star Superman, Batman Inc.). And for my money, I'll take Knight and Squire over the Goddman Batman any day!
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate When Batman was created in the late 30's he smoked a pipe, wore a gun on a holster on his belt, and even killed people. Batman has change since then. The times change and comics must change with them. They can not stay in the past. It's fine that you prefer Knight and Squire. But, it's wrong for you and Mr.Cooke to try to take All-Star Batman, Identity Crisis, and Watchman away from me.
toekneebeeears 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears
People like to focus on these arguments from time to time: "But Batman shot people with guns and Superman threw people from helicopters back in the day." True. However, (a) that was for relatively a very brief part of their existence. You won't find Batman and Superman doing much killing from the early 40's onward, where (b) these characters have been at their most iconic. Furthermore, (c) these changes were made by the creators of the characters themselves.
VanguardSupreme 10 months ago
@VanguardSupreme Agreed. Golden Age comics were, for the most part, rushed, poorly written and disposable. Of course I love the GA Superman Batman, but since then, writers have refined their characters, themes and origins. Batman doesn't use guns and Superman doesn't kill.
Also, according to Batman Inc. #4, Batman really did have a Bat-Hound named Ace and a cousin (!) named Batmwoman. Hey, we all have cousins and dogs these days, so Grant Morrison is keeping Batman up to date with the times!
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears
You're being very dramatic about this. No one's taking anything away from you. Some people just want better written stories. And the fact that you're still mentioning Watchmen indicates you're missing the point. Hasn't CBS acknowledged that he likes 2/3 of the works you mentioned? By that measure, I should be prattling on about how Mr. Meltzer should stop bastardizing JLA members and compromising the integrity of DCU for me, since Identity Crisis was NOT an Elseworlds.
VanguardSupreme 10 months ago 2
@VanguardSupreme I may have dramatic but sometime you have to be dramatic to get your point across. That point being that superhero comics are constantly changing. They will never be the same as they were when we were kids. Nor should they. It's boring if they never change. I'm remedied of that song Centerfold. Superheros can't stay that innocent girl forever. Spider-man can't stay single and in high school forever. Clark Gable said "Damn ! " in 1939. Isn't about time that Batman said it ?
toekneebeeears 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears Isn't it a bit pointless? And doesn't he already say it? Superman was saying "damn" in 1986 when he was drawn by John Byrne.
ephraimmorrison 7 months ago
@ephraimmorrison I was confused as to why Batman saying " I'm the god damn Batman ! " was so controversial. I could not see how it was a big deal. I was unaware of Superman saying "Damn". Thank you for letting me know. I'm going to have to look that up.
toekneebeeears 7 months ago
@toekneebeeears I don't know the context of Superman saying 'damn', but here's the full line from All-Star Batman: "What, are you dense? Are you retarded or something? Who the hell do you think I am? I'm the Goddamn Batman."
So, here, wildly out of character, Batman insults his future ward twice ('retarded'? Really, Frank?) and comes off as narcissistic, which he isn't. Anyone who's read Batman for the past 75 years knows this.
Its the CONTEXT that it is used that make this ridiculous.
ComicBookSyndicate 7 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate Not this again. I thought we settled this. Anyway, the thing is Mr. Cooke said "I don't want to see Batman swear." As if Batman swearing is the thing he has a problem with. He did not say "I don't want to see Batman act narcissistic." Again, All-Star Batman is an alternate reality Batman out of continuity with the rest of the DCU which excuses any changes Mr. Miller cares to make. Let's just say I don't have a problem with it but, you do. Can we agree to disagree ?
toekneebeeears 7 months ago
@toekneebeeears Hey, I thought it was settled too. Alright, agree...on to the next thing!
ComicBookSyndicate 7 months ago
@toekneebeeears Man, you better agree to disagree b/c everyone's getting real peeved of you derailing this thread with your repetitive 'IT'S JUST AN ALTI-VERSE STORY' rant. On an on like a raving parrot, you better move on to something completely different.
-R78
Rodimus78 7 months ago
@toekneebeeears Superman said "Damn you, Luthor!" in response to the first exposure to his Kryptonite ring, if I recall correctly.
I do agree with some of Cooke's points; I think the issue is not one of restoring "Hey kids! Comics!", but blurring the line too much between heroes and the world they are supposedly attempting to change for the better.
ephraimmorrison 6 months ago
@toekneebeeears Mr. Cooke is not advocating censorship, so why should you be bothered that he swore in this video? He's advocating talent, and above all, good taste. For any writer to take on the responsibility of a 70 year old character, shouldn't they be required to have both?
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate Why should I be bothered that he swore in this video ? Because I believe people should practice what they preach. The fact that he swore when he said that Batman should not swear makes him a hypocrite.
toekneebeeears 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears But Darwyn Cooke is not a superhero. He's talking about superhero comics, not everyday speech. I'm sure your teachers in grade school went home and swore and cursed, and had sex with their spouses, but they didn't do it at the front of the classroom. There's a time and place for everything.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate Yes there is a time and place for everything. Out in public, on a video for the whole world to see is not the place or time to swear. Especially right after condemning swearing in the exact same video.
toekneebeeears 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears Toekneebeeears, he did not say PEOPLE should not swear, he said BATMAN should not swear. Why do you continue to bring this up?
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate Like you said, there is a time and place for everything. Mr. Cooke swore in public and on a video easily heard by young people. The very same young people he is tiring to protect from Batman's so very fowl mouth. That makes him a hypocrite. I bring it up so you see how ironic and full of hypocrisy his crusade truly is.
toekneebeeears 10 months ago
@toekneebeeears Okay, I understand your point, but I still think its fine to apply different standards to your own spoken words as an artist doing an interview. There's a huge difference between what any business owner would do in the privacy of his own versus what he would allow in his place of business. He would demand that his employees dress a certain way, act a certain way, or speak a certain way. But this person wearing a suit and tie at home in his swimming pool.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate I'm glad you understand my point. That is exactly the point I was tiring to get across to you. If Mr.Cooke did a privet interview with you (that was not posted where anybody of any age can see it) and he swore, I would be a little more accepting of it. At least we can agree on something.
toekneebeeears 10 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate Finally, think about YOUR reaction if you were watching a Star Wars or Harry Potter film, an episode of Dr. Who or Star Trek, and were suddenly treated to full frontal nudity, graphic gory depiction of violence, or curse words like f***, s*** or whatever. Wouldn't that seem out of place?
Why then, is it okay to do so in a superhero comic, which is intended for the exact same audience?
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
Y'know, there was a time I'd disagree with him because superhero comics are meant to be deadly serious stuff, or something. Then I realised, these are grown men and women in colouful tights who run around punching people while calling themselves goofy names like [Something] Man/Woman. Not exactly the type of stories that lend themselves to "mature" storytelling 40+ manboys like them to be.
VanguardSupreme 10 months ago
@VanguardSupreme
People should outgrow comics when they turn 18, and if they're still reading past that age, more power to them. But to suggest that these inherently fun, imaginative, but ultimately silly narratives should cater to their tastes as they get older...well, does that mean we should expect superhero comics to be like Matlock and Golden Girls when they're still reading these stories 20 years from now looking for their superhero fix?
VanguardSupreme 10 months ago
@VanguardSupreme I'm sure you mean SUPERHERO comics. People don't outgrow music, TV, theatre or novels, so they shouldn't outgrow comics either.
Superheroes can be read by people older than 18, the same way adults can still enjoy classic Disney films, or the original Star Wars trilogy. They're for the whole family!
The absurdity of the genre makes them appropriate for fantasy/sci-fi escapism, and not appropriate for the ridiculous pretensions imposed on them by people like Bendis and Johns.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
@ComicBookSyndicate
Yes, I did mean superhero comics. I usually try to make that distinction, but it seems I failed to do that here. But yeah, I agree with everything you said. It's what I was getting at, except much more clumsily. People (young males) are quick write off all-ages works as childish, not realising themselves the childishness that goes into that kind of thinking.
Let me put it this way: Between G-rated Toy Story 3 and PG-13 Transformers 2, one appealed to my adult sensibilities.
VanguardSupreme 10 months ago
...it wasn't the robots.
VanguardSupreme 10 months ago
@VanguardSupreme GREAT example!
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
Comment removed
toekneebeeears 10 months ago
wow, that sounds like he wants almost all older comic fans to fuck off. I agree with a lot of what he said about All Star Batman and a lot of dark shit in comics, but he puts Alex Ross to shame. Its like he's suggesting that the silver age should not just come back in full force but also end any kind of maturity in comics. I hate the overly dark and grim shit of the 90's, but is the solution to leave all of the fans like me who got into comics for good mature storylines out in the cold?
windscar15 10 months ago
He's absolutely right. I think it's all the attempts to make comic books dark and cool is why the fan image of comics went from kids to 45 year old manchildren. Superheroes are ridiculous in that fun, cool way. Trying to make dark does not appease normal adults or children.
SoundArrows 10 months ago
@SoundArrows I agree 100%. Superhero comics should take a page from The Adventures of Robin Hood (with Errol Flynn) or the Indiana Jones films--slightly tongue-in-cheek heroes in all-ages adventures. Other than deconstructionist works like Watchmen (authored by exceptional writers), muscle-bound men in leotards are not adaptable to the (im)mature treatment they receive from today's literal minded writers.
ComicBookSyndicate 10 months ago
Comic books are for the children as entertainment and fun- not for older men who enjoy seeing things that are explicit!
countpierce88 11 months ago
this is totally right! finally it's nice to see someone who is passionate to comics for their original purpose.
WillEd3 1 year ago
@WillEd3 Passion, with the talent to back it up!
ComicBookSyndicate 1 year ago
@ComicBookSyndicate @therudeboy77 As the guardians of 70 year old American icons, DC Comics should be a little bit more strict about who they let write their characters. Batman is a vigilante that fights to protect innocent people from crime. Frank Miller turned him into a psychotic idiot. The solution is to hire a better writer.
Theres plenty of room for dark comic books, but there's no room for trashy, childish, amateur shock tactics when you're writing the most popular superhero in the world.
ComicBookSyndicate 1 year ago 2
@ComicBookSyndicate I'm glad DC gives the writers freedom.
If you read All-Star Batman & Robin the Boy Wonder you would see Batman protecting Dick Grayson from the corrupt cops who were going to beat him so that he wouldn't talk and identify the killer of his parents. Frank Miller is also not afraid to show Batman with shades of grey.
There is room for superhero comic books which someone might not like and might consider trashy and bad taste. It's freedom of the press.
therudeboy77 1 year ago
@therudeboy77 Okay, fair point.
So, isn't Darwyn Cooke calling this stuff 'perverted' also an example of 'freedom of the press' ?
ComicBookSyndicate 1 year ago
@ComicBookSyndicate Yes, of course, that's freedom of speech and his right.
therudeboy77 1 year ago
@ComicBookSyndicate I'm usually tough on today's creators, but Darwyn is one of the best to come down the pike in 20 years. What he's saying is let them make NEW characters if they want to do all those dark, creepy genres. But don't screw up the already established good ones. One example is the crappy way they let the movie morons make a half dozen well-known white characters suddenly "black" overnight. Total rubbish!
themredweirdoshow 1 year ago
@themredweirdoshow Yes, create the Squadron Supreme, Watchmen or Authority to deal with that stuff. Superman, however, is the Champion of the Oppressed, not an executioner (via John Byrne), and not a boring yuppie (via Mike Carlin's entire run as editor).
As for changing ethnicities, I actually don't mind it. Fans are resistant to new characters, and its hard to suddenly create a new character and insert him into a 75 year old franchise. I have no issue with Pete Ross, Kingpin or even Rip-Cord.
ComicBookSyndicate 1 year ago
@ComicBookSyndicate "It's hard" to create new characters? That's no excuse at all. It was much harder to do so back in the days when there was NO "75 year old franchise" to glide along on. Changing ethnicities, sexual orientation and the like is totally obscene and defeats the purpose of creating those characters in a particular way in the first place. Same goes for turning the Black Panther white, making Alicia and Daredevil sighted, etc. Like Cooke indicates, it's just blatant unoriginality!
themredweirdoshow 1 year ago
@themredweirdoshow Its hard because the public will not accept new characters. Grant Morrison created tons of great characters in his Doom Patrol run. What happened to them? They were written out, because of the belief that the public wants the 'basics' team of Robotman and Co.
When Fox makes their next Spider-man movie, will they use The Foreigner, The Rose or Silver Sable? Those are characters I grew up with the 80s. They won't...they'll use the classic Ditko/Lee villians from the 60s.
ComicBookSyndicate 1 year ago
@themredweirdoshow (pt. 2) In fact, I cant think of a single character created by Marvel or DC since the late 70s that has made it to an animated or live action adaptation (Wolverine and Punisher for Marvel, and Firestorm for DC. Those were the last ones).
So, knowing that creators and readers reject new characters, its seems the only to slip minority characters into superhero comics is to give them pre-existing monickers created for white characters. Not ideal, but its a compromise.
ComicBookSyndicate 1 year ago
@themredweirdoshow (Pt. 3) By the way, isn't it strange that every single "alien" from the planet Krypton looks like they're descended from Northern Europeans? Fair skin, blonde or brown hair all around. Interesting...
ComicBookSyndicate 1 year ago
@ComicBookSyndicate What about what Grant Morrison's been doing to him?
SuperWolsey 1 year ago
@SuperWolsey Youtube is too confusing to navigate, so I'm not sure what comment you're referring too. I'm assuming its Morrison's drastic changes to Batman?
I love Morrison, but I don't like Bruce Wayne's public announcement about funding Batman one bit. It WILL be retconned, trust me.
Bruce Wayne should be Batman, but we all know this is just temporary (at least its no Azrael). Typically, I wouldn't like Batman time travelling, but GM's whole run has been dabbling in 50s sci-fi, so its fine.
ComicBookSyndicate 1 year ago
@ComicBookSyndicate Not to me. And I don't care much for the Scrappy that is Damian
SuperWolsey 1 year ago
@SuperWolsey On paper, I don't like many of the concepts, but its still the most unpredictable, exciting Batman storyline in years, maybe even decades. The only other writers that have come close to this are Ed Brubaker, Jim Starlin and Frank Miller (Year One), and that's going waaay back.
ComicBookSyndicate 1 year ago
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Darwyn Cooke sounds like Fredric Wertham here. I'm against censorship. There's room for dark and sexual comic books amid at adults like All-Star Batman & Robin the Boy Wonder/Dark Knight Boy Wonder and lighter wholesome kid friendly comic books like Batman The Brave and The Bold as well.
therudeboy77 1 year ago
@therudeboy77 You're against censorship? Don't be so modest. Censorship is a double-edge weapon used & abused for the ones who suits their wants of the petty over their needs of the many.
-R78
Rodimus78 1 year ago
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therudeboy77 1 year ago
@Comicbooksyndicate And I will defend Geoff Johns till I can't speak or type because he is one of the premier writers and has a great love for comics and superheroes and has topped himself as the scale of his work gets larger
KalEL224 1 year ago
@ Comicbooksyndicate And I will defend Geoff Johns till I can't speak or type because he is one of the premier writers and has a great love for comics and superheroes and has topped himself as the scale of his work gets larger
KalEL224 1 year ago
@KalEL224 I think he's a decent writer, and I admire him for bringing back much of the 1960s elements into Superman, but I don't understand his use of gratuitous violence. Why did the Phantom Lady have to meet her end by being impaled with a 10 foot long phallic symbol driving through her breasts? Why couldn't she die heroically, the way the Flash did?
Also, he helped destroy the 80s JLI by killing Blue Beetle and destroying Max Lord's character. Not much respect for characters there.
ComicBookSyndicate 1 year ago
@comicbooksyndicate Sorry but there have always been more then 1 versions of characters till 86 earth 1-infinity and various letters. So for there to be a Earth 1 version an Ulitmate edition over in marvel makes sense. I refuse to believe that superheroes we all grew up reading have to stay stuck in time and become unreadable after you hit puberty. I don't want to read ABC comics i want to read Superman and see the stories evolve not be stagnant Johns did a great job with this
KalEL224 1 year ago
@KalEL224 What about All-Star Superman? The imagination and magic of the 1960s, but with better dialogue and deeper themes. Judging by the dozens of awards its won, I would say that is a true 'adult' superhero comic. But there's not a boob or amputated limb in sight. That's a good example of Superman 'evolving'.
Marrying him off to Lois is not evolving. Its falling pray to the same problem that destroys any serial fiction: aging the character.
ComicBookSyndicate 1 year ago
@ComicBookSyndicate since when is getting married aging a character? u can get married at any age as long as u r over 18 (16 in some states) so i don't subscribe to that theory. Him marrying lois i think gave way to better stories so that they didn't have to treat this nobel prize winning journalist like an idiot and not realize Clark and Superman where the same person. Batman having a love life with Catwoman i am all for it.
KalEL224 1 year ago
@KalEL224 The average age for marriage in the United States is 25. So, if you're over 25, you can relate, if you're younger, it is something associated with age.
ComicBookSyndicate 1 year ago
@ComicBookSyndicate sorry don't subscribe to that either. When superman got married I got it and loved it i was 13. And all the little quips that they have as a married couple I got then and even appreciate more now. So sorry marriage is not something "you'll get when you're older" a good story like u keep saying is a good story. only thing i didn't like was when they dragged out them getting down the isle
KalEL224 1 year ago
@KalEL224 If you think superheroes should age, where do you stop? Spider-man gets married. Then...has kids? Then...dies? See the problem? YOU might want him married, but your grandfather might think Spider-man should be in a nursing home so HE can relate to him. But, superheroes are not for him, or you, or me. They're for everyone. And Spider-man's original concept was to be a teenage superhero, and I wish he stayed that way.
The Peanuts gang never aged, why should superheroes?
ComicBookSyndicate 1 year ago
@ComicBookSyndicate Superheros grow to get new audiences my grandfather stopped reading comics back when it was still at the level u want it. So in your words you want to have Superheros be stuck in this level of stupidity and not acknowledge the world around them? Thats why they grow and age so writers can create new stories. How many times can you have superman beat evil scientist lex luthor and have a belly laugh with jimmy and lois as lex says "Curses foiled again?"
KalEL224 1 year ago
@KalEL224 I don't want supervillians to say 'curses, foiled again', anymore than I want Darth Vader to say "curses, foiled again'. Fantasy, sci-fi and superhero stories can deal with deep, psychological themes--like just fairy tales, myths and religion can. But to mix a mythological story like King Arthur with a graphic sex scene seems to miss the purpose of the story.
CONTINUED...
ComicBookSyndicate 1 year ago
@KalEL224 I think a myth or fable works on a symbolic level, so while its fine to imply sex or gory violence (like in Gothic horror), i don't think showing the gory details works. It doesn't fit the scale of the story.
I don't think old comics are "stupid" at all. If they were, they why do Moore, Morrison, Gaiman, Waid and Busiek draw so much inspiration from them? Sure, they can be improved upon, but there was never so much imagination as there was in the glory days of the 1960s.
ComicBookSyndicate 1 year ago
@ComicBookSyndicate I don't subcribe to saying that there is more imagination in the 60s then now. Their "imagination" was based on lack of scientific knowledge. Now that the world has gotten smaller you need to imagine in different areas. Sex can be implied and it is implied in books The rape of sue dibney was not shown in graphic detail but the lead up and fall out was. As for King Arthur read King Author vs Dracula and get back to me
KalEL224 1 year ago
@KalEL224 By imagination, I mean the writers ability to come up with the ideas that have been used for the past 40 years worth of stories. For example,Chameleon,Doctor Octopus,Electro,Green Goblin, Hammerhead,Hydro-man, Kingpin, Kraven, Lizard, Mysterio, Sandman, Shocker, Tinkerer, and the Vulture were all created in the 1960s Spider-man comics. These villians outshine all others, partly because there have not been anyone as creative as Steve Ditko and Stan Lee that have worked on the book, imo.
ComicBookSyndicate 1 year ago
@ComicBookSyndicate so you want writers to resuse ideas that have come before? Really? that is the opposite of imagination. War of the Supermen new idea. Blackest Night new idea. Civil war not new but fleshes out the whole Fredick Worthem case of the 50s. So there is plenty imagination left in superhero books its just not dumbed down so it preaches to little kids to brush their teeth and respect officer friendly.
KalEL224 1 year ago