I think it has to do with the fact that many of the survived manuscripts about medieval combat are written in old german. Therefore many schools train in the german tradition. It's really useful too, like feeling is a everyday word but if you say fühlen then every one understand that it's about swordfighting =)
I love martial arts that have alot of stand up wrestling. Though, in the Balkans the street fights often resemble crude kickboxing matches. They often hit in the groin and use impliments such as a chair or rocks. Though I do not know if Europe likes wrestling over striking. This might be true in the North, due to the climate. This wrestling system is wonderful.
@cerkuenik One possibility is that a lot of wrestling martial arts included wrestling partially to deal with battlefield realities of armour and weapons. Hotter climates where armour is less practical might have less grappling and more striking.
@Railstarfish Ha-ha!! That's why all sorts of wrestling were/are so popular in such "cold" countries as Ancient Greece, Iran, Turkey, Bulgaria, India, etc! :-))
@ussrwrestling Feel better for trolling a 5 month old comment? Nice strawman. Wrestling was popular everywhere, but look at Pankration and tell me how little striking is used, tell me about the complete absence of kicks.
@Railstarfish In Ancient Greek - wrestling/ground-fighting was predominant technique! Also, the Greeks favoured their wrestling styles over the Ancient Greek boxing!
@ussrwrestling A quick search is not finding what you claim. What it does find is more high kicks than in many other martial arts with battlefield roots.
If your point is hot climates used wrestling too, then the answer is "Of course." Since punches/kicks are less practical when you have a sword or spear. But your argument as stated relies on the strawman that a cold climate is the only reason anyone might use wrestling at all.
@cerkuenik Clothing could be part of it. If you are wearing a lot of furs or bulky layers of wool, because it's cold, striking becomes less effective. This kind or wrestling could work despite clothing. This kind of grappling is also more effective against a man in armor then some of the more subtle grappling of later Jujutsu (post civil war jujutsu was less about martial combat and more about self-defense, so it didn't take armor into account) or the striking of dirty-boxing, karate, etc.
@cerkuenik No thats wrong, fights in balkans resemble "crude kickboxing" matches beause of the movies since 70-s, like in the rest of the world the idea of stand up superiority crept in. Otherwise, there is traditional Serbian wrestling for example and other Balkan nations have wrestled in the past as well. If you don't belive me read some Serbian epic poems for proof.
@Theseus1000 >beause of the movies since 70-s, like in the rest of the world the idea of stand up superiority >crept in.
I agree! Up till 1970s "kung-fu movies" craze - most of Europe favoured grappling/wrestling over strking! In Balkans as well. There're strong wrestling traditions in Bulgaria, Serbia, Macedonia, Greece, etc, including various folk-wrestling styles.
@teslic100 italians favored grappling too but even in both german and italian schools different masters incluede striking as well as part of the "wrestling" application. if u look cross culturally some may teach striking and wrestlign seperately butthey all apply it with out favor to one or the other as its suppose to be applied as a singular like in tradtional kenjutsus schools and bujinkan jujitsu and taijitsu when applied dont look like seprate arts like MMA does with grappling and striking
@Akmon87 The ARMA ( the association for Renaissance martial arts ) it began in the USA Texas from John Clements not from Britain. i am a member of ARMA in Greece ...
I'm not sure if you can consider this an actual form of combat from the middle ages. In this clip alone I saw techniques from Chinese speed wrestling, Pankraton, Judo, Sambo, Taido and Kampfrigen.
@Satukotheum the techniques are similar. But as it´s been said here already, using modern grappling arts to compare and constrast with the manuals is the most basic method of reconstructing this lost marcial art.
just carvings and vase of mythical ppl or real ppl fighting modern greco roman and modern adaptation of pankrations do not use the same stances and reference points since the ppl reconstructing it are using modern wrestling(aka celtic) to reference the motions.
That's exactly what I thought as well, though to be frank wrestling regardless of where in world u are has for centuries been very similar. We are after all humans all of us and there is onlt so much you can do differently.
@Giagantus true but what i notices is that the flavor or the theme of the style is more noticable in the way they manipulate the limbs or throw. There is a bronze statue of a greek man simiultaniously doing a shoulder lock on the right arm while doing a elbow lock on the left while standing. forcing hte oppent into a kneeling position
These guys must have had some modern ju-jitsu or Judo, because there is no way they have gotten this good from just looking at books of the old "medieval wrestling"!?
@jesuskopp definitely, or greco-roman, catch as catch can, sambo or any other modern grappling art. Its the most basic method of reconstructing this lost marcial art.
@jesuskopp while what you say may be true and I'm sure at least some would have prior combat training (not necessarily in grappling) once translated the historical manuals not only include pictures but detailed descriptions of moves and at lest most of what this group displays here is recognisable from the historical manuals (though I don't pretend to be an expert)
@jesuskopp Yes and no. The old manuals are really quite detailed. Ott in particular is quoted in many. However, having a background in grappling of any kind helps in the interpretation of old texts. As to looking like other grappling arts, that's no surrpise. The fundamentals have not changed in the past 500 years. A hip throw is a hip throw. If you know the basics, you can puzzle out what the manuals are saying with the application of a good bit of hard work! :)
@MrFrinkham Ya, I'm from and live in Brazil, I uploaded this video but I have nothing to do with their school. I hope very soon I can lean with them in Poland!
@citricsystemz .. Rochester, NY. I see you are in Canada. Obviously its a big country, but there are some great Western Martial Arts organizations in Canada that might be in your region.
@citricsystemz: If you're in Alberta, you're welcome to come train with us at the AES. We have chapters in Edmonton and Calgary. Hopefully we will have chapters in Red Deer and Madison, Wisconsin soon. Otherwise, I can help you find people in other provinces too.
@cerkuenik I'd say similar wrestling techniques developed independently in many countries. Different people can come to similar conclusions in science and fighting.
Hard to say. People have been developing martial arts since the dawn of our species. The oldest recorded martial arts I'm aware of are the Egyptian wrestling wall carvings.
well all in all, im starting to believe that martial arts is really apart of animal nature no matter how you look at it, every animal seems to have their own style of fighting and defending themselves, in reality they are still fighting styles, its a wonderous thing if you ask me
Yep, while there are an infinite number of styles to an application there will always physically be ultimate or commonly effective applications of technique and power. After all, the human body is the same ALL around the world.
Its really never been a question of nationality in its origin. If any warrior spends enough time and dedicates himself he will learn how to use his own body as a weapon in an effective manner.
Pankration by a long time. Ju-jutsu is derived from Kumi-uchi, Japanese armoured grappling which is much like medieval German Kampfringen. Ju-jutsu started after armour was less common. Judo is a 20th Century adaptation of ju-jutsu blended with Western sporting/wrestling methodoligies.
Do you know what the word for Polish Wrestling is? Koshti, Ringen, Lotta, Shuai, Evala, Pure, Huka, Kurash, Pale, Ssireum, Koras, Bohk, Malla, Wrestling are a couple of wrestling systems of different ethnic groups around the world.
that like that move aswell, but you could also turn your hip position when you counter it and make a "winden" you like double the speed of the move and the 1st attacker falls real hard ;p
It is similar to judo and Jujutsu. I notice that the guys in the video used a lot of strength. When they are doing throws that look like o-goshi and ippon seionagi, there stance is high. In judo or jujutsu, my instructor keep telling me to lift with my legs. I tend to throw like the guys in the video. My stance when I throw is high.
So, what building in presumably Poland is it shown at the beginning? By that I mean the one with the little sculptures of wrestlers and medieval fencers. Where does one go to see images of these little statues?
not exactly, if u watch closely, many of the movements greatly resembles modern day sports wrestling. my guess is that the sports wrestling is the watered down version of the actual stuff
AS many have already said there are only so many ways to break an arm (via for example arm lock)or throw somebody over your shoulder, hence similarities with other martial arts or styles. After all we might look a little different but our bodies still the same (two arms, two legs, a head etc).
what this video shows is an example of a european martial art, each culture or civilization has its own martial art, and each martial art is as good as the other. what this video shows is how people are trying to restore this martial art bescause it was forgotten for a long time with the introduction of gunpowder. in the far east firearms took a little longer to appear so its martial arts were preserved better and are the best known in the world.
I don't think this Video is saying that Martial arts or their techniques are from Europe but rather those were techniques europeans used and that martial art techniques are born or discovered in other parts of the world then only in the far east asia
One important thing to consider when comparing and contrasting different martial arts is social context. European martial arts, like the one this video displayed wonderfully, developed in a world where most people carried large knives, wore thick clothing and so on. Martial arts develop around such conventions and must be seen in this light. Europe preferred grappling over striking for different reasons like armor, training safety, social customs and then some. Even then, similarities abound.
very good point which is why we see some judo style throws in the video.I train with a medevil sword intructor and I have learned some disarms that are simular to chin na and aikido so yes I agree wearing armor and using sword a would be more suitable to grappling.
Martial arts where not invented anywhere. maybe the agypts had some we don't know about. we we're just talking about the oldest martial art known to us. at least i think we did. but thanks for pointing that out. people might misunderstand, and its a good point anyway^^
Wonderful stuff. Particularly like the throw that drops the oponent on the back of his head or neck. Done forcefully could be a real finisher, even against a much bigger attacker. Also love the complete absense of the cultural baggage that accompanies eastern "martial" arts, which I did, along with boxing.
a person from any country can do the same basic movement,we all have the two arms,legs,so there will be a lot of of crossover between methods across the world,some people asume the oldest is the best,not true as people learnt new ways and refined the method to suit their needs.
All these discussions about what style came first etc because arguments like "That Looks Like This" etc is just stupid imho.
The moves look simmilar because we have the SAME BODY. There is fundamental basics to be followed, this leg locks in that way, that hip throws easily that body there, I turn the wrist this way, the body goes that way - etc.
This is great. Love seeing some of the more less "popular" arts. So much of the European Martial Arts revival centers around the longsword. Great job guys. =)
The throws shown at 2:39 and 3:03 look really similar to Shuai Chiao ( or Shuai Jiao) throws that I've learn during my training with the Ohio state Shuai chiao club. Its a really old chinese art. But, great minds think alike I guess.
thats exactly it. everywhere on this planet, people have to deal with the laws of physic and human anatomy. its only natural that european people would develop martial arts similar to the asian ones. but since we were less isolated and changed our equipment and weapons very often, we nearly lost them, while they became a tradition in asia.
Thats ok. My point is though, for it to be lost, it would have to be gone. But its not, its contained in wrestling and boxing, has been for years. And in many ways it is exactly the way it always has been. Shadowboxing, shadow wrestling, drills, two man drills, sparring are no different than Kata, step sparring, free sparring that are the eastern arts.
I think now i got your point. You mean, we changed or martial arts into sport, as such they continued to exist. is that what you wanted to say? If yes, i have to agree with you. The art may have changed, but the learning methods are still the same^^
Well I agree with you, but most European martial arts are much older then most Asian martial arts...
Look Kung Fu and most Japanese martial art is only about 400 to 600 years old. And most European martial arts like Wrestling, Boxing, "Mixed" martial arts, and some others are 2000 years old, Some are way over 3000 years old!!
Many moves that we see in most Asian martial arts can go back to the Greeks and Romans...
well, there are also really old kung fu styles (1000 or so years i think) and since they seem to have originated from india, those have to be much older, but i agree with you, greek Pankration for example is way older.
I just think that it is an oversimplification to say that martial arts came from either Europe or asia, or from anywhere in particular for that matter. Anytime people are applying logic to violent encounter, there is a chance of a martial system emerging. And since humans have the same physiology, no matter where they are from, it will look similar. I just find the notion of a localized birthplace of something so widely and universally used hard to believe.
well, its true that given the physiology, you can only use your body in so and so many ways to hurt someone. still, there are differences in the martial arts. how is that? because of the history of the place they were "invented". that makes the same move (roundhousekick) different in some arts (kickboxing/muay thai, karate and taekwondo for example)
That's definitely not the argument he was making at all. I think he meant you should expand your view of 'martial arts' outside of Europe or Asia. What would you call the system used to wield an Aztec obsidian sword, or an Apache stone axe? I'm sure they had systems of their own.
Oh. Well then, in that case i misunderstood him. Those surely had their own stuff, just like the egypts most likely had the their own system(s), or the aborigines (spelling?).
I still stick with the idea that the place a given martial art descended from highly influences the art in multiple ways though.
And the moves that Romans and Greeks have may very well have come from the Egptians. We know that Egypt has had various martials arts in particular wrestling and Boxing. And as you familiar egytpian cvilisation is way older than Greek and Roman. While it's likely that Roman/greek had influences from Egypt. it's also likely that Egyptian/Greek/Romans developed their martial arts independently from Asian. The human body is so similiar that you can only break an arm in so many ways.
I come primarily form a Jiu jitsu and judo background. One thing i find quite interesting in this is the large number of throws made by a grapple on the legs, they actively move the grab the legs and throw from there. Could this be due to differences in physical characteristics like height, leg/body size ratios and arm lengths? This is almost all standing throws, what about groundwork?
Well, AFAIK, the manuals emphasize that shorter people has the advantage and there is almost nothing written about groundwork. I believe that´s because they wanted to finish the fight on thei feet, taking to the ground would be too dangerous.
What you see over there is more like an medieval sports wrestling, for martial techniques you should check Fiore and Talhoffer´s manuals.
Yes, the proportional characteristics of a easterner's verses a westerner's body does come into play in the choice of so many leg grapples. The fact that there is no groundwork is because in a combat situation, groundwork is asking to die, being able to tie someone into cool knots is fun and all, but really hard when his buddy is standing next to you poking his longsword in your face.
There are some groundfighting techniques, and sometimes a description of a technique will finish: "and this can also be done on the ground". Armoured fighting is more likely to end up on the ground with daggers. Nasty stuff. :)
Without intending any offense, it is very hard for me to believe these statistics. You're going to have have to cite your sources. We should also consider that due to lack of proper nutrition and modern medicine, medieval Europeans would have been shorter than modern folk.
thats very true what you said, most people were shorter back then. But not by a big gap... Northen Europeans were about 5.9 to 5.11 tall, Southern Europeans were about 5.6 to 5.8 tall...
I have to say size helps but dos not mean that you will win... One dude I seen in TV doing the Medieval/Roman Wrestling beat a dude that was much bigger and heavier then him. they were 5.8 feet tall VS 6 feet tall.
I think are the Germans and Duch. You Northen Europeans are average to 6 feet to 6.2 feet. That below 6 feet? Were did you get that. I got my info from the news...
Where and when a martial discipline comes from is a moot point. All that matters is that the style is effective, and that those who practice the style enjoy doing so and do so skillfully. And to answer your question, magnusolimpus, the only thing holding me back right now is spending time trying to recruit others to the ARMA. I'm the only ARMA student in my community right now. Hopefully, that will change soon! :)
Also, if I really wanted to, I could argue for an even earlier genesis for the style. If you compare the fechtbucher (fighting manuals) with the illuminated manuscripts from the 12th and 13th centuries, you'll find that the illustrations match up to the techniques shown in the later manuals, at the very least on a rudimentary level. But, this is irrelevent, and I'll tell you why.
Therefore, Ott's work is merely another addition to a style that was first created in the mid-14th century. And in fact, it is important to note that Ott was not the last master to make additions to the style. In fact, masters up through to the early Renaissance, including Talhoffer and Mair added techniques of their own. The fact of the matter is that you can't pinpoint a single master that simply added on techniques in a style's history and say that they developed the entire style.
Yes, Ott Jude wrote his own manual that forms the bulk of the grappling techniques in the early 1400's, but he also said, "I have not created wrestling, but I have perfected it." Meaning that he did not form the style himself, but added to it, and he also made it known that his teacher was the priest, Hanko Dobringer, who was a star pupil of Johannes Liechtenauer.
That's OK, although, your English is much better than my Spanish. Anyway, have a big thumbs-up from ARMA U.S. I'm only a Tier One, but I studied the history of the art and the manuals extensively before joining, so I have a lot of knowledge, but haven't had much time to practice yet.
Then, they studied the original manuals, and took the lessons imparted therein with their previous experience to re-create the techniques. So, while kampfringen does pre-date Judo, the current tradition does not as it fell out of use and effectively "died" for several centuries before being rediscovered and rebuilt from the ground up. Just thought I'd throw in my two cents.
Thats right, im an ARMA student i have practice those manuals. We are trying to recover the "lost" art of medieval self defence but its all about interpretation. Also note that de jujitsu grappling is a little different, because the europeans have a wider back and that makes a different center of gravity that changes que way to throw away then slightly different, im also a theoretical physicist and i have check those physical traits on the lab. :)
Interesting but since Europe is a continent and the people who occupy different nations within it as differ in size does that mean Italian grappling differs from German grappling since southern Europeans are shorter than northern Europeans?
What about southern Italians? The point is if so called Japanese grappling is different from so called European grappling because of size differences then it has to differ with in Europe itself also.Not all European people are tall especially the southern Europeans (Italians, Greeks etc).
i like!
armaetemporis 9 months ago
strange that so many Eastern European fencing schools and wrestling schools use German words for it ..
are they used in everyday life or are they left over from times when the towns there still German?
TheLoki7281 9 months ago
@TheLoki7281
I think it has to do with the fact that many of the survived manuscripts about medieval combat are written in old german. Therefore many schools train in the german tradition. It's really useful too, like feeling is a everyday word but if you say fühlen then every one understand that it's about swordfighting =)
gurkfisk89 9 months ago
@TheLoki7281 Wroclaw used to be a part of German kingdoms for centuries! There's even German name for Wroclaw - Breslau
ussrwrestling 5 months ago
@ussrwrestling ah thx :)
TheLoki7281 5 months ago
I love martial arts that have alot of stand up wrestling. Though, in the Balkans the street fights often resemble crude kickboxing matches. They often hit in the groin and use impliments such as a chair or rocks. Though I do not know if Europe likes wrestling over striking. This might be true in the North, due to the climate. This wrestling system is wonderful.
teslic100 1 year ago
@teslic100 interesting, why the climate would interfere in their choice for wrestling over striking?
cerkuenik 1 year ago
@cerkuenik One possibility is that a lot of wrestling martial arts included wrestling partially to deal with battlefield realities of armour and weapons. Hotter climates where armour is less practical might have less grappling and more striking.
Railstarfish 10 months ago
@Railstarfish I totally agree! it´s hard to punch and kick armour :)
cerkuenik 10 months ago
@Railstarfish Ha-ha!! That's why all sorts of wrestling were/are so popular in such "cold" countries as Ancient Greece, Iran, Turkey, Bulgaria, India, etc! :-))
ussrwrestling 5 months ago
@ussrwrestling Feel better for trolling a 5 month old comment? Nice strawman. Wrestling was popular everywhere, but look at Pankration and tell me how little striking is used, tell me about the complete absence of kicks.
Railstarfish 5 months ago
@Railstarfish In Ancient Greek - wrestling/ground-fighting was predominant technique! Also, the Greeks favoured their wrestling styles over the Ancient Greek boxing!
ussrwrestling 5 months ago
@ussrwrestling A quick search is not finding what you claim. What it does find is more high kicks than in many other martial arts with battlefield roots.
If your point is hot climates used wrestling too, then the answer is "Of course." Since punches/kicks are less practical when you have a sword or spear. But your argument as stated relies on the strawman that a cold climate is the only reason anyone might use wrestling at all.
Railstarfish 5 months ago
@cerkuenik Clothing could be part of it. If you are wearing a lot of furs or bulky layers of wool, because it's cold, striking becomes less effective. This kind or wrestling could work despite clothing. This kind of grappling is also more effective against a man in armor then some of the more subtle grappling of later Jujutsu (post civil war jujutsu was less about martial combat and more about self-defense, so it didn't take armor into account) or the striking of dirty-boxing, karate, etc.
Altonahk 8 months ago
@cerkuenik No thats wrong, fights in balkans resemble "crude kickboxing" matches beause of the movies since 70-s, like in the rest of the world the idea of stand up superiority crept in. Otherwise, there is traditional Serbian wrestling for example and other Balkan nations have wrestled in the past as well. If you don't belive me read some Serbian epic poems for proof.
Theseus1000 8 months ago
@Theseus1000 >beause of the movies since 70-s, like in the rest of the world the idea of stand up superiority >crept in.
I agree! Up till 1970s "kung-fu movies" craze - most of Europe favoured grappling/wrestling over strking! In Balkans as well. There're strong wrestling traditions in Bulgaria, Serbia, Macedonia, Greece, etc, including various folk-wrestling styles.
ussrwrestling 5 months ago
@teslic100 italians favored grappling too but even in both german and italian schools different masters incluede striking as well as part of the "wrestling" application. if u look cross culturally some may teach striking and wrestlign seperately butthey all apply it with out favor to one or the other as its suppose to be applied as a singular like in tradtional kenjutsus schools and bujinkan jujitsu and taijitsu when applied dont look like seprate arts like MMA does with grappling and striking
kaindrg 8 months ago
what is the name of this song?
docoxify 1 year ago
what is the name of this song?
docoxify 1 year ago
Curioso medieval
dolmanrg 1 year ago
brutal
tetsun0 1 year ago
The group in Poland Called FEDER arma is a british Group
Akmon87 1 year ago
@Akmon87 British? I thought they were Polish! What are they doing over there then? =)
cerkuenik 1 year ago
@Akmon87 The ARMA ( the association for Renaissance martial arts ) it began in the USA Texas from John Clements not from Britain.
Ulenor 1 year ago
@Akmon87 The ARMA ( the association for Renaissance martial arts ) it began in the USA Texas from John Clements not from Britain. i am a member of ARMA in Greece ...
Ulenor 1 year ago
@Ulenor ok sry i guess i made a mistake. but Feder is defenitivly polish. And as far as i know not a Part of Arma
Akmon87 1 year ago
I'm not sure if you can consider this an actual form of combat from the middle ages. In this clip alone I saw techniques from Chinese speed wrestling, Pankraton, Judo, Sambo, Taido and Kampfrigen.
Still, it looks very impressive. I'd do it.
Satukotheum 1 year ago
@Satukotheum the techniques are similar. But as it´s been said here already, using modern grappling arts to compare and constrast with the manuals is the most basic method of reconstructing this lost marcial art.
cerkuenik 1 year ago
@Satukotheum
Do we actually have info on actual techniques from pankration ?
Giagantus 1 year ago
@Giagantus nope
just carvings and vase of mythical ppl or real ppl fighting modern greco roman and modern adaptation of pankrations do not use the same stances and reference points since the ppl reconstructing it are using modern wrestling(aka celtic) to reference the motions.
kaindrg 1 year ago
@kaindrg
That's exactly what I thought as well, though to be frank wrestling regardless of where in world u are has for centuries been very similar. We are after all humans all of us and there is onlt so much you can do differently.
Giagantus 1 year ago
@Giagantus true but what i notices is that the flavor or the theme of the style is more noticable in the way they manipulate the limbs or throw. There is a bronze statue of a greek man simiultaniously doing a shoulder lock on the right arm while doing a elbow lock on the left while standing. forcing hte oppent into a kneeling position
kaindrg 1 year ago
Great video
Patrickthedutch 1 year ago
These guys must have had some modern ju-jitsu or Judo, because there is no way they have gotten this good from just looking at books of the old "medieval wrestling"!?
jesuskopp 1 year ago
@jesuskopp definitely, or greco-roman, catch as catch can, sambo or any other modern grappling art. Its the most basic method of reconstructing this lost marcial art.
cerkuenik 1 year ago
@jesuskopp while what you say may be true and I'm sure at least some would have prior combat training (not necessarily in grappling) once translated the historical manuals not only include pictures but detailed descriptions of moves and at lest most of what this group displays here is recognisable from the historical manuals (though I don't pretend to be an expert)
timmybiggerboy 1 year ago
@jesuskopp Yes and no. The old manuals are really quite detailed. Ott in particular is quoted in many. However, having a background in grappling of any kind helps in the interpretation of old texts. As to looking like other grappling arts, that's no surrpise. The fundamentals have not changed in the past 500 years. A hip throw is a hip throw. If you know the basics, you can puzzle out what the manuals are saying with the application of a good bit of hard work! :)
Kunstdesfechtens 1 year ago
Hi cerkuenik, your channel says you're from Brazil. Are you living in Poland? When I go back to Wroclaw, I'll check these guys out.
MrFrinkham 1 year ago
@MrFrinkham Ya, I'm from and live in Brazil, I uploaded this video but I have nothing to do with their school. I hope very soon I can lean with them in Poland!
cerkuenik 1 year ago
2:47 i definitely would like to practice that hip toss counter lol
citricsystemz 2 years ago
I loved jui-jitsu this reminds me of it alot.
citricsystemz 2 years ago
yes it does, medieval close combat is very similar to japanese jujutsu
cerkuenik 2 years ago
@citricsystemz I would say that Jui-Jitsu reminds me a lot of Medieval Wrestling. ;-)
Djemps 2 years ago
thats cool where do you train?
citricsystemz 2 years ago
@citricsystemz .. Rochester, NY. I see you are in Canada. Obviously its a big country, but there are some great Western Martial Arts organizations in Canada that might be in your region.
Djemps 2 years ago
@Djemps i used to train bjj
citricsystemz 2 years ago
@citricsystemz: If you're in Alberta, you're welcome to come train with us at the AES. We have chapters in Edmonton and Calgary. Hopefully we will have chapters in Red Deer and Madison, Wisconsin soon. Otherwise, I can help you find people in other provinces too.
Kunstdesfechtens 1 year ago
@Djemps but im more interested in the implications of weapons instead of mma
citricsystemz 2 years ago
shuriken86 You are 100 % right my friend. Respect!!!!
megasayajinsongoku99 2 years ago
pankration looks pretty cool
shuriken86 2 years ago
Congratz to the great work guys, that truly was an inspiring one!
Keep on Rockin ;)
(And may the asiatica-fanboys shove their whatever-gay-looking-hyaaa-jitsu up their skinny *sses) You Rock, good sirs.
Nimduril 2 years ago
Zajebiście chłopaki!
Hotora86 2 years ago
The combination of music and martial art is almost hypnotic in this clip! I can't stop watching it!
StudentInFrance 2 years ago
looks like Judo and stuff i seen from pankration
shuriken86 2 years ago
medieval wrestling has some similarities to judo and is direct descendant from pankration.
cerkuenik 2 years ago
which came fisrt pankration or jiu jitsu or judo?
shuriken86 2 years ago
pankration came first, greek and romans developed it.
JMA started to develop about 1000AD
cerkuenik 2 years ago
ah ok, but chinese martial arts came b4 pankration right?
shuriken86 2 years ago
that´s really a hard question, some scholar says pankration came first, and alexandre the great took to india then india took to china....
cerkuenik 2 years ago
@cerkuenik I'd say similar wrestling techniques developed independently in many countries. Different people can come to similar conclusions in science and fighting.
Hotora86 1 year ago
@Hotora86 I Agree =), i just said that some scholars believe in that theory.
cerkuenik 1 year ago
Hard to say. People have been developing martial arts since the dawn of our species. The oldest recorded martial arts I'm aware of are the Egyptian wrestling wall carvings.
Kunstdesfechtens 2 years ago
well all in all, im starting to believe that martial arts is really apart of animal nature no matter how you look at it, every animal seems to have their own style of fighting and defending themselves, in reality they are still fighting styles, its a wonderous thing if you ask me
shuriken86 2 years ago 2
Yep, while there are an infinite number of styles to an application there will always physically be ultimate or commonly effective applications of technique and power. After all, the human body is the same ALL around the world.
Its really never been a question of nationality in its origin. If any warrior spends enough time and dedicates himself he will learn how to use his own body as a weapon in an effective manner.
Glad to see someone gets the big picture.
BrahmanZero 2 years ago
Pankration is claimed to be a mix of: Pale, Lotta, and possibly egyptian combat techniques.
rabourbon87 2 years ago
Comment removed
Giagantus 1 year ago
Pankration by a long time. Ju-jutsu is derived from Kumi-uchi, Japanese armoured grappling which is much like medieval German Kampfringen. Ju-jutsu started after armour was less common. Judo is a 20th Century adaptation of ju-jutsu blended with Western sporting/wrestling methodoligies.
Kunstdesfechtens 2 years ago
Isn't Kumiuchi claimed to be the original Japanese martial art and the mother to Sumo and Jujitsu?
rabourbon87 2 years ago
I doubt it's the orginal MA of Japan. Kumi Uchi is designed for grappling in armour. There were MA long before there was Yoroi!
Kunstdesfechtens 2 years ago
Do you know what the word for Polish Wrestling is? Koshti, Ringen, Lotta, Shuai, Evala, Pure, Huka, Kurash, Pale, Ssireum, Koras, Bohk, Malla, Wrestling are a couple of wrestling systems of different ethnic groups around the world.
rabourbon87 2 years ago
this youtube should have a forum! so many rich comments around here!
cerkuenik 2 years ago
I'm glad you think so.
rabourbon87 2 years ago
Polish word for wrestling is "zapasy"
Best wishes.
Tharfin 2 years ago
Sweet.
VegaEtereo 2 years ago
FANTASTIK WORK
HICsvntLEONES 2 years ago
The two plays starting at 2:44 blow my mind.
Awesome.
EssentialDoubt 2 years ago 2
that like that move aswell, but you could also turn your hip position when you counter it and make a "winden" you like double the speed of the move and the 1st attacker falls real hard ;p
Gortharify 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Put ladys clothes on and call it transvestites wrestling. Have 2 gay wrestling and call it. Queer wrestling, or homo sambo.
TRiiiGER26 2 years ago
Put TRiiiGER26 clothes on and call it retard wrestling.
Although that would be kind of stupid because unlike medieval people the ancient retards never left any wrestling moves for us to learn.
cannedpotato 2 years ago 6
This comment has received too many negative votes show
canned potato, I heard that you are also called sausage in the can by your mid evil mates.
TRiiiGER26 2 years ago
Yes, I have big sausage in my can. Why do you think the Ladies are always looking for their knight in shiny armor?
Yea, that's one BIG reason. That and we have Chivalry. We know what the Ladies
want !
255Knights 2 years ago 2
Yea, a lot like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Queer wrestling there huh?
255Knights 2 years ago 2
Just to clarify, from what I have read, Judo was somewhat influenced by western wrestling.
MrColuber 2 years ago
ye i guess from some theory about pankration, its pretty understandable
paulvader212 2 years ago
martial arts only go so far. it is the japs that exagerate it with gravity deffying moves in movies.
xathanaric 2 years ago
Perfect video!
One question aboute the music: what song is it?
Regards!
Warcry666 2 years ago
Moby - Flower
HellHammerOfDoom 2 years ago
It's a good video though. The techniques are impressive
Tawalisi 2 years ago
It is similar to judo and Jujutsu. I notice that the guys in the video used a lot of strength. When they are doing throws that look like o-goshi and ippon seionagi, there stance is high. In judo or jujutsu, my instructor keep telling me to lift with my legs. I tend to throw like the guys in the video. My stance when I throw is high.
Tawalisi 2 years ago
worst music ever
cool video though
btw its not fucking jiujitsu its pure european martial arts
Supertomiman 2 years ago 2
Very nice, where can we get copies of the full videos?
tyroneart 2 years ago
So, what building in presumably Poland is it shown at the beginning? By that I mean the one with the little sculptures of wrestlers and medieval fencers. Where does one go to see images of these little statues?
almostnormal3 2 years ago
Those images are on the fasade of city hall in Wrocław (indeed in Poland).
Best regards.
larrel777 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
These are all Judo and Jiu Jitsu techniques.
MMAfighter70 3 years ago
No, these are medieval european wrestling which is very similar to medieval jujutsu.
Actually, modern jiujitsu is 80% catch-as-catch can.
cerkuenik 3 years ago
The no-gi stuff resembles catch-as-catch-can, the gi stuff is mostly judo.
sleepykid156 2 years ago
not exactly, if u watch closely, many of the movements greatly resembles modern day sports wrestling. my guess is that the sports wrestling is the watered down version of the actual stuff
sleepykid156 2 years ago
Well, for me this is rather more like modern Olympic free-style wrestling. ;-))
peterkvideo 2 years ago
kawal naprawde dobrej roboty
ciekawi mnie tylko jakimi zrodlami sie kierowaliscie ??
slavuBOG 3 years ago
sorry!
I don´t speak polish!
cerkuenik 3 years ago
aj slavo slavo
otto żyd, na stronie polskiej army masz co nieco o tym
Venedae 3 years ago
AS many have already said there are only so many ways to break an arm (via for example arm lock)or throw somebody over your shoulder, hence similarities with other martial arts or styles. After all we might look a little different but our bodies still the same (two arms, two legs, a head etc).
Giagantus 3 years ago 2
what this video shows is an example of a european martial art, each culture or civilization has its own martial art, and each martial art is as good as the other. what this video shows is how people are trying to restore this martial art bescause it was forgotten for a long time with the introduction of gunpowder. in the far east firearms took a little longer to appear so its martial arts were preserved better and are the best known in the world.
Supertomiman 3 years ago
I don't think this Video is saying that Martial arts or their techniques are from Europe but rather those were techniques europeans used and that martial art techniques are born or discovered in other parts of the world then only in the far east asia
NewZealfighter 3 years ago
Yes, that´s exactly what I believe.
This video whows techniques practised in middle age Europe.
Offcourse that there are close-combat styles all over the world.
cerkuenik 3 years ago
One important thing to consider when comparing and contrasting different martial arts is social context. European martial arts, like the one this video displayed wonderfully, developed in a world where most people carried large knives, wore thick clothing and so on. Martial arts develop around such conventions and must be seen in this light. Europe preferred grappling over striking for different reasons like armor, training safety, social customs and then some. Even then, similarities abound.
blambell 3 years ago 6
>Europe preferred grappling over striking for >different reasons like armor,
Actually the same is true about Japan! Japanese samurais invented jiu-jitsu, because striking is not quite applicable against armory!
peterkvideo 3 years ago 3
True but Jiu Jitsu and Pankration still incorporate striking techniques.
warriorbull87 3 years ago
So does the European Wrestling. It's not clearly shown in this movie, but there is a range of diverse strikes there, in the manuals.
Best wishes.
larrel777 2 years ago
very good point which is why we see some judo style throws in the video.I train with a medevil sword intructor and I have learned some disarms that are simular to chin na and aikido so yes I agree wearing armor and using sword a would be more suitable to grappling.
NewZealfighter 3 years ago
very good to see kampf kunst still being practiced. thanks i enjoyed the vid
snpaclbiochem 3 years ago
Of course, I could be wrong.
Greatsocratesghost 3 years ago
Martial arts where not invented anywhere. maybe the agypts had some we don't know about. we we're just talking about the oldest martial art known to us. at least i think we did. but thanks for pointing that out. people might misunderstand, and its a good point anyway^^
Greets from germany
JamJackJillian 3 years ago
This looks really cool, are there any groups in the US? Also, what is the name of the song?
Greatsocratesghost 3 years ago
Wonderful stuff. Particularly like the throw that drops the oponent on the back of his head or neck. Done forcefully could be a real finisher, even against a much bigger attacker. Also love the complete absense of the cultural baggage that accompanies eastern "martial" arts, which I did, along with boxing.
emire25 3 years ago
a person from any country can do the same basic movement,we all have the two arms,legs,so there will be a lot of of crossover between methods across the world,some people asume the oldest is the best,not true as people learnt new ways and refined the method to suit their needs.
awarrior76 3 years ago
I agree, but Wrestling is very good; and still to this day...
255Knights 3 years ago
Is ARMA doing Medieval Wrestling in the USA?
255Knights 3 years ago
All these discussions about what style came first etc because arguments like "That Looks Like This" etc is just stupid imho.
The moves look simmilar because we have the SAME BODY. There is fundamental basics to be followed, this leg locks in that way, that hip throws easily that body there, I turn the wrist this way, the body goes that way - etc.
trolltrumman 3 years ago
excellent, thx very much!
Dracoti 3 years ago
macaddict1980 Greek, Roman, and Medieval
Wrestling is as old as Shuai chiao? 1000s of years old.
Roman55Legions 4 years ago
Pankration, greek, is is 2648 years old.
It's one of the oldest martial arts, used in the greek original olympics.
Eastheart 3 years ago
This is great. Love seeing some of the more less "popular" arts. So much of the European Martial Arts revival centers around the longsword. Great job guys. =)
grantsmilitary 4 years ago 2
The throws shown at 2:39 and 3:03 look really similar to Shuai Chiao ( or Shuai Jiao) throws that I've learn during my training with the Ohio state Shuai chiao club. Its a really old chinese art. But, great minds think alike I guess.
macaddict1980 4 years ago 3
thats exactly it. everywhere on this planet, people have to deal with the laws of physic and human anatomy. its only natural that european people would develop martial arts similar to the asian ones. but since we were less isolated and changed our equipment and weapons very often, we nearly lost them, while they became a tradition in asia.
JamJackJillian 4 years ago 2
we didnt really lose them. they pretty much became what we know as boxing and wrestling :/
guitarninja83 3 years ago 2
to me, thats "nearly lost", if you compare it with how asian martial arts are in some cases still like they were in the beginning.
sry for bad english, im german and quite drunk atm^^"
JamJackJillian 3 years ago
Thats ok. My point is though, for it to be lost, it would have to be gone. But its not, its contained in wrestling and boxing, has been for years. And in many ways it is exactly the way it always has been. Shadowboxing, shadow wrestling, drills, two man drills, sparring are no different than Kata, step sparring, free sparring that are the eastern arts.
guitarninja83 3 years ago
I think now i got your point. You mean, we changed or martial arts into sport, as such they continued to exist. is that what you wanted to say? If yes, i have to agree with you. The art may have changed, but the learning methods are still the same^^
JamJackJillian 3 years ago
yea pretty much, even if some specific techiques became nonexistant, eventually they will spring up again
guitarninja83 3 years ago
yeah, since there are only so-and-so many ways to bring someone down^^
Thanks for the conversation(happy to have discussions without insults on youtube, thats sadfully not self-evident) and have a nice day^^
JamJackJillian 3 years ago
Well I agree with you, but most European martial arts are much older then most Asian martial arts...
Look Kung Fu and most Japanese martial art is only about 400 to 600 years old. And most European martial arts like Wrestling, Boxing, "Mixed" martial arts, and some others are 2000 years old, Some are way over 3000 years old!!
Many moves that we see in most Asian martial arts can go back to the Greeks and Romans...
255Knights 3 years ago 2
well, there are also really old kung fu styles (1000 or so years i think) and since they seem to have originated from india, those have to be much older, but i agree with you, greek Pankration for example is way older.
JamJackJillian 3 years ago
I think you are both oversimplifying.
Greatsocratesghost 3 years ago
Well, might be. Just help me here:
Which comment did you reply too?
What do you think is oversimplifying and what do you think would be the proper description/term/function/whateveritisiandsomeoneelsetalkedabout
JamJackJillian 3 years ago
I just think that it is an oversimplification to say that martial arts came from either Europe or asia, or from anywhere in particular for that matter. Anytime people are applying logic to violent encounter, there is a chance of a martial system emerging. And since humans have the same physiology, no matter where they are from, it will look similar. I just find the notion of a localized birthplace of something so widely and universally used hard to believe.
Greatsocratesghost 3 years ago 4
well, its true that given the physiology, you can only use your body in so and so many ways to hurt someone. still, there are differences in the martial arts. how is that? because of the history of the place they were "invented". that makes the same move (roundhousekick) different in some arts (kickboxing/muay thai, karate and taekwondo for example)
JamJackJillian 3 years ago
That's definitely not the argument he was making at all. I think he meant you should expand your view of 'martial arts' outside of Europe or Asia. What would you call the system used to wield an Aztec obsidian sword, or an Apache stone axe? I'm sure they had systems of their own.
MarcusDBrutus 3 years ago
Oh. Well then, in that case i misunderstood him. Those surely had their own stuff, just like the egypts most likely had the their own system(s), or the aborigines (spelling?).
I still stick with the idea that the place a given martial art descended from highly influences the art in multiple ways though.
JamJackJillian 3 years ago
all cultures had a system especally when it came to wrestling so yes I also agree with what your saying
NewZealfighter 3 years ago
And the moves that Romans and Greeks have may very well have come from the Egptians. We know that Egypt has had various martials arts in particular wrestling and Boxing. And as you familiar egytpian cvilisation is way older than Greek and Roman. While it's likely that Roman/greek had influences from Egypt. it's also likely that Egyptian/Greek/Romans developed their martial arts independently from Asian. The human body is so similiar that you can only break an arm in so many ways.
Giagantus 3 years ago 3
I come primarily form a Jiu jitsu and judo background. One thing i find quite interesting in this is the large number of throws made by a grapple on the legs, they actively move the grab the legs and throw from there. Could this be due to differences in physical characteristics like height, leg/body size ratios and arm lengths? This is almost all standing throws, what about groundwork?
sirbobulous 4 years ago
Well, AFAIK, the manuals emphasize that shorter people has the advantage and there is almost nothing written about groundwork. I believe that´s because they wanted to finish the fight on thei feet, taking to the ground would be too dangerous.
What you see over there is more like an medieval sports wrestling, for martial techniques you should check Fiore and Talhoffer´s manuals.
cerkuenik 4 years ago
Yes, the proportional characteristics of a easterner's verses a westerner's body does come into play in the choice of so many leg grapples. The fact that there is no groundwork is because in a combat situation, groundwork is asking to die, being able to tie someone into cool knots is fun and all, but really hard when his buddy is standing next to you poking his longsword in your face.
starcommander55 4 years ago 4
There are some groundfighting techniques, and sometimes a description of a technique will finish: "and this can also be done on the ground". Armoured fighting is more likely to end up on the ground with daggers. Nasty stuff. :)
Kunstdesfechtens 4 years ago
Well Northen Europeans are more 6.1 feet-6.4 feet tall! Southern Europeans are about 5.10feet -5.11feet tall, but we in the USA are more 5.9 tall.
Roman55Legions 4 years ago
Without intending any offense, it is very hard for me to believe these statistics. You're going to have have to cite your sources. We should also consider that due to lack of proper nutrition and modern medicine, medieval Europeans would have been shorter than modern folk.
mogur13 4 years ago
Well I was talking about moder times, but
thats very true what you said, most people were shorter back then. But not by a big gap... Northen Europeans were about 5.9 to 5.11 tall, Southern Europeans were about 5.6 to 5.8 tall...
Roman55Legions 4 years ago
I have to say size helps but dos not mean that you will win... One dude I seen in TV doing the Medieval/Roman Wrestling beat a dude that was much bigger and heavier then him. they were 5.8 feet tall VS 6 feet tall.
Roman55Legions 4 years ago
But yes size dos help a lot!
Roman55Legions 4 years ago
personally, i find that hard to believe
statistically, we dutch are the tallest people in the world, and were about average of just below 6 feet
sounds more like a boost to me :)
nielsdejong 4 years ago
I think are the Germans and Duch. You Northen Europeans are average to 6 feet to 6.2 feet. That below 6 feet? Were did you get that. I got my info from the news...
Roman55Legions 4 years ago
woops sorry, no wrong info, didnt get you there
yes you are right: WE were 6 to 6.2 feet XD
nielsdejong 4 years ago
Well, im mexican and im 1.92 meters =D
magnusolimpus 4 years ago
cool :)
then your EXACTLY the same size as my 17 year old little brother :) though he is 1,93 :)
nielsdejong 4 years ago
Im 19, you should meet my little cousin, 2 meters, 18 years old. =D
magnusolimpus 4 years ago
Where and when a martial discipline comes from is a moot point. All that matters is that the style is effective, and that those who practice the style enjoy doing so and do so skillfully. And to answer your question, magnusolimpus, the only thing holding me back right now is spending time trying to recruit others to the ARMA. I'm the only ARMA student in my community right now. Hopefully, that will change soon! :)
Strimos 4 years ago
That have to change! We need to "convert" more people to our cause.
magnusolimpus 4 years ago
Also, if I really wanted to, I could argue for an even earlier genesis for the style. If you compare the fechtbucher (fighting manuals) with the illuminated manuscripts from the 12th and 13th centuries, you'll find that the illustrations match up to the techniques shown in the later manuals, at the very least on a rudimentary level. But, this is irrelevent, and I'll tell you why.
Strimos 4 years ago
Therefore, Ott's work is merely another addition to a style that was first created in the mid-14th century. And in fact, it is important to note that Ott was not the last master to make additions to the style. In fact, masters up through to the early Renaissance, including Talhoffer and Mair added techniques of their own. The fact of the matter is that you can't pinpoint a single master that simply added on techniques in a style's history and say that they developed the entire style.
Strimos 4 years ago
Yes, Ott Jude wrote his own manual that forms the bulk of the grappling techniques in the early 1400's, but he also said, "I have not created wrestling, but I have perfected it." Meaning that he did not form the style himself, but added to it, and he also made it known that his teacher was the priest, Hanko Dobringer, who was a star pupil of Johannes Liechtenauer.
Strimos 4 years ago
That's OK, although, your English is much better than my Spanish. Anyway, have a big thumbs-up from ARMA U.S. I'm only a Tier One, but I studied the history of the art and the manuals extensively before joining, so I have a lot of knowledge, but haven't had much time to practice yet.
Strimos 4 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
what are you waiting for?! :)
magnusolimpus 4 years ago
"...that changes the way to..." Sorry, im mexican and im a very bad english writer.
magnusolimpus 4 years ago
Then, they studied the original manuals, and took the lessons imparted therein with their previous experience to re-create the techniques. So, while kampfringen does pre-date Judo, the current tradition does not as it fell out of use and effectively "died" for several centuries before being rediscovered and rebuilt from the ground up. Just thought I'd throw in my two cents.
Strimos 4 years ago
Thats right, im an ARMA student i have practice those manuals. We are trying to recover the "lost" art of medieval self defence but its all about interpretation. Also note that de jujitsu grappling is a little different, because the europeans have a wider back and that makes a different center of gravity that changes que way to throw away then slightly different, im also a theoretical physicist and i have check those physical traits on the lab. :)
magnusolimpus 4 years ago
Interesting but since Europe is a continent and the people who occupy different nations within it as differ in size does that mean Italian grappling differs from German grappling since southern Europeans are shorter than northern Europeans?
Plato86 4 years ago
Northern Italians and Germans are of the same stock. There's not too much of a body type difference.
Caliburnis 4 years ago
What about southern Italians? The point is if so called Japanese grappling is different from so called European grappling because of size differences then it has to differ with in Europe itself also.Not all European people are tall especially the southern Europeans (Italians, Greeks etc).
Plato86 4 years ago