Nazarene Emergent Church Plant

[Ebo9508]

As it was at the turn of the last century, when the Nazarenes and Wesleans split off from the Methodists, now it is time for the Church of the Nazarene to split. James Dobson's father is roling in his grave!

[tldhthompson]

how about Nazarenes just be catholic...the many gathered as one...while remaining many ... fueled by the Spirit for a very particular person and purpose -- Jesus Christ, the concrete universal, for the glory of God the Father and for the sake of the world Christ died and rose again to restore. If Nazarenes cannot be this, then they are heretical...emergent, concerned or not. "I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church..."

[cheagan]

@tldhthompson You'll notice that in the creed which you quote, the word, "catholic" isn't capitalized. It means "universal", from the Greek. When it became capitalized, by Constantine, it went from being the church, to union with the Roman Empire.  This is not debatable. I, also, as a Presbyterian, believe in "one holy, catholic and apostolic church". But you will not catch me participating in the blasphemy of the "mass".

[holinesspentecostal]

By all means, don't withdraw from this post modern wicked adulterous culture.

By all means, don't tell anyone that the blood of Jesus Christ God's Son cleanseth us FROM ALL SIN!

That statement automatically seperates us from this "post modern," rock-n-roll, demon possessed CULTURE! Holiness DEMANDS SEPERATION! BE YE HOLY is a command which is diametrically OPPOSED to modern culture and its ideologies, music, and lifestyle. The WORD of God defines our Christian life, NOT HOLLYWOOD or CCM!

[matrxmax]

seriously ..... but the culture is a pornographic culture in general, how is the new way of doing church going to reflect on that to be relevant ?

[holinesspentecostal]

True Holiness is not "culturally" relevent. It has always been diametrically opposed to most cultures! How culturally relevent was Paul's message? How about John the Baptist? If these men would have followed this ideology they would have never lost their lives in a world that was (and still is) hostile to the true message of the Gospel! Wherefore come out from among them and BE YE SEPERATE...! (2Cor. 6:17)

[NazareneEvangelists]

@holinesspentecostal

Mal 3:6

For I am the Lord, I change not;

KJV

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

KJV

Heb 13:9

Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines

KJV

[holinesspentecostal]

@NazareneEvangelists AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!

[jsmyers57]

@holinesspentecostal As you mentioned Paul here let me also remind you what else Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9:22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. The whole EC movement has become a fad. Therefor in a way the movement is dead. However, Pauls words here speak to what the church still can learn from some of the principals of this movement.

[jsmyers57]

@jsmyers57 Paul was talking about being him self as well as making the message relevant to whatever culture he was a part of. This does not say the message changes, just that we have to find ways to present it to our changing culture so they can understand the message, the same way communication has changed in a digital age.

[holinesspentecostal]

@jsmyers57 Can you site examples of how Paul "became weak" in order to win someone?

Did Paul join in with the "Gladiators" of his time to win some?

Did he dress like a woman and parade around in the temple of Diana in order to win some idolators in Ephesis?

Did he get drunk and stagger around on the island of Melita in order to win those Barbarians?

Did he cuss like a sailor in order to "Save" the crew together before the ship fell apart?

Please give me some scriptural examples.

[jsmyers57]

@holinesspentecostal Who said anything about becoming weak, and who said anything about the EC movement condoning becoming weak. Lumping everyone who has any affiliation with the EC movement is about as intelligent as lumping all Christians or even Nazarene s together in the same group and saying they all think, act, believe, and feel the same on every single issue under the sun.

[holinesspentecostal]

@jsmyers57 You did....... by quoting 1 Cor. 9:11 to justify the "some principals of this movement".

[jsmyers57]

@holinesspentecostal you know, you are entitled to your opinions, I just have a hard time seeing through your words your love of people as Christ taught us, I see a lot of fear and judgment, which is sad. God Bless you and I will leave it at that.

[holinesspentecostal]

@jsmyers57 You will never understand the full scope of God's divine character if you never get beyond Love. The devil will love you to death all the way to hell if that's all it takes to be God. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. We shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ and give an account for every idle word (Matt.12:36) and every deed done in this body (Rom. 2:5-6)! By the way, I'm still waiting for some examples!

[holinesspentecostal]

@jsmyers57 When you challenge the EC movement, you find out just how much "love" they really have. When their women get on the platform in their tight pants and hot shorts gyrating the the beat of "Sweet Home Alabama" on a Sunday Morning.........I wouldn't feel any love in that atmosphere....ONLY LUST! Sadly, most EC lovers don't know the difference. Biblical scholarship is not one of their strong points. After all, they can't muddy the cesspool with too much doctrine!

[jsmyers57]

@holinesspentecostal I would like to point out you have given one example, be it actual or something you have made up to prove a point. You must understand there is no definition of the Emergent Church. It is not an established organization. You can not lump one example from one church who put a label of Emergent on themselves and assume this is what the heart of the "movement" is about and how every single church and every person in those churches feels, believe, acts, etc.

[holinesspentecostal]

@jsmyers57 I can give you several youtube sites which exemplify what the CFR globalist Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, and the EC movement has done to nearly every denomination in the US. This is not just happening in the Nazarene Church. I was raised in the Church of God (Cleveland, TN). Their colleges are now embracing Catholicism and the EC crowd. Their Lee College singers now sing secular rock on youtube. Young ministers are being encouraged to visit monastaries to gain "enlightening" experiances.

[holinesspentecostal]

@jsmyers57 Would you like for me to give you the phone # of a young minister who called me recently disturbed by what he experianced while taking classes to become ordained in the COG? The COG use to be a very conservative holiness pentecostal denomination!

[jsmyers57]

@holinesspentecostal I will also argue your point about lack of knowledge of scripture. First of all you speak in generalities but there is no proof to back it up. I personally know many pastors as well as professors at several of our denominational schools and our seminary who would be tagged as at least sympathetic to the movement who also happen to be our topic biblical scholars and it is evident in the fact that they are currently all writing our new commentary series.

[holinesspentecostal]

@jsmyers57 I wouldn't read any commentary from anyone symapthetic with the EC crowd. I don't consider the Rick Warrens of the world "Biblical Scholars". They are exactly what Jude, Peter, Paul, and Jesus describe as...... "Well without water".... "Clouds that hold no rain".... "promising liberty while they themselves are the servants of corruption".... "holding the truth of God in unrighteousness"..... "twice dead plucked up by the roots"...."lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God"...ect.

[holinesspentecostal]

@jsmyers57 These are the "scholars" who Paul describe as..... "having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof"...... "ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (2 Tim. 3:5-7)

Thank God I have fully known Paul's "doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, persecutions, afflictions,......" 2 Tim. 3:10 (not Rick's, Joel's or Billy's)

[CrystalIrismusic]

whole grain bread to wheat bread to enriched white bread......I'd rather be associated with dogma than be confused with Christ / new age

[4858mf]

It's interesting looking at the response of several EC members/pastors. They all have basically the same response. Seriously, read them. "Don't you have something better to do than?" C'mon. Take a really good look at guys like McClarren. The word "Smart Idiot" comes to mind. Very smart, but a wolf in sheeps clothing. I am more than concerned, I frankly am worried. I was hoping that the EC was more than this "cultish" type of movement. I was wrong.

[jfdiggs]

I think I answered your questions pretty directly. I gave you the Nazarene article of faith on scripture which I absolutely affirm. And I affirmed what Jesus said in John 14:6. Both of these was an answer to your question.

I am not hiding anything. you know my real name. However, I have no idea about who 4858mf is and what he is really trying to get at?

You talk of wolves in sheep's clothing- yet you come to me in disguise.

[4858mf]

Fair enough. My name is Mark. I attend a Nazarene church in Southern Ohio. I have found that many EC are teaching doctrine contrary to the church. As in, there is no hell, there are many ways to heaven, heaven is not really a place. Was just trying to see where you were coming from. I am worried about the EC "movement" inside my denomination. These days, we have to careful about what and who we listen to.

[4858mf]

Pastor Diggs, Some questions for you. Is the Bible the inerrant, infallible word of God? Is there one way to God, Jesus Christ? I am a new minister in the Church and your answers are important.

[jfdiggs]

I believe in the plenary (which means full) inspiration of the Holy Scriptures, by which we understand the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments, given by divine inspiration, inerrantly revealing the will of God concerning us in all things necessary to our salvation.

[jfdiggs]

And, yes I believe Jesus when he said as recorded in John 14:6, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

[norqvader]

this is like listening to my kids bicker. I wil say, Pastor Diggs, be careful about what facets of the emergent movement you hold to...contextualization must be tempered with Bible-centered theology. I have not been to your church, but if the critics are against jeans in church, or communion(the Lord's table) they have no clue what emergent is. Keep Jesus the focus, and best wishes on the Church plant.

[jfdiggs]

Thank you norqvader.

[NazareneEvangelists]

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

KJV

[jfdiggs]

Hmmmm, accuracy? Lets see if we can count your sites...

1. concernednazarenes(dot)org

2. concernednazarenes(dot)net (a completely different site)

3. nazarenepsalm113.wordpress(dot­)com

4. nogoofyzone.wordpress(dot)com

5. simplyagape.blogspot(dot)com

Ok, so I was one off when I used the expression of a half dozen, perhaps we might count your CN facebook group as # 6. But I think it is funny how you criticize me for accuracy by saying you only have 3 places you keep updated on the web.

[57GotDrums]

James, James ,James Again your not one for accuracy are you? I have 1 website and two blogs. Plus Im not a pastor . Plus again as you do you do not respond to the comments because of course you cant.

[sagesdrummer]

Theological debates on youtube. Really, guys?

[Pacisdiligo]

In response to myself! I wrongly described the Catholic view of the atonement as essentially "penal" in nature. That is incorrect. While it is true that Aquinas (who's view dominates the Catholic view) did incorporate the idea, officially the Church emphasizes the death of Christ on the cross as primarily "sacrificial" in nature. The sacrifice being sufficient in and of itself to provide reconciliation between God and man. God bless.

[Pacisdiligo]

Actually, the "penal substitution" theory, as you call it, is indeed a central tenet of certainly Catholic and (most of) Protestant Christianity, always has been. The Eastern Orthodox are notable for taking a somewhat different angle, focusing more on the adoption/exaltation aspects of our reconciliation. Much of what characterizes the "emergent church" ideology is an odd mixture of truth and error.

[greens47]

After visiting Emergent Church websites and doing copious research I've discovered an odd aversion by the EC to the central tenet of Christian belief, that is, Jesus' substitutionary death on the cross and the absolute necessity of being "born again" (by faith in Him and his sacrificial death) in order to be reconciled to God. The "leaders" of the EC "conversation" are, in many cases, heretical. Amongst the good there is a lot of bad. The Nazarene denomination needs to reconsider.

[jfdiggs]

greens47, the specific atonement theory of penal substitution is not a "central tenet" of historic Christian belief or orthodoxy. This is not a rejection of the orthodoxy of atonement but rather the clarification that the specific atonement theory (and there are many) that reformed theology seems to favor over all others does not does not speak to the "central tenets" of historical Christianity as a whole.

[richschmidt]

Some of you commenters are hearing the word "Emergent" and assuming that all the negative things you've heard about "Emergent" must apply to this pastor and his church. I'm sure that's not the case, just like all the negative things some people have heard about "Christians" don't apply to you, personally.

Just a thought, from a 32-year-old pastor of a 7-year-old Nazarene church plant...

[carmichaelat]

"true holiness is always culturally relevant"...really?

[richschmidt]

Yep. Was Jesus relevant to his culture? I'd say so. He didn't let his culture dictate what he would do (he followed his Father's direction), but he was certainly relevant to it! And if Jesus was, then perhaps we should be, too...?

[Mattaflux]

I am a Nazarene from Barbados.You said that you identify with the Emergent Church? Are you sure you know what you are doing? (See Rom 16:17-18)

[jfdiggs]

Mattaflux,

Yes, and let me say that the emergent church is very pro unity of the body, and isn't about making divisions like the scripture you gave warns about. This is why people who identify with the emergent church can remain within their traditions while at the same time dialoging with the church catholic (universal).

[auggiesurfer]

quit compromising scripture to be relevant to a perishing generation. its disgusting. and heretical. as a pastor, you will be held accountable for every word that you preach from the pulpit. i only hope that the emergent poison that is being preached will not spread far.

[jfdiggs]

auggiesurfer,

Nothing in my video or wrote here can substantiate your absurd accusations that I am "compromising biblical doctrine" and "watering down the gospel". You are a very poor listener, because while I embrace the humanity of Christ I have done nothing to diminish his divinity and his sinlessness. Your rant is more against what you ignorantly THINK I am saying rather than what I actually have said. Your unfounded condemnation is evidence to a lack of spiritual maturity.

[57GotDrums]

Wow James why such hate speech calling people names

When you state "greens47, the specific atonement theory of penal substitution is not a "central tenet" of historic Christian belief or orthodoxy. This is not a rejection of the orthodoxy of atonement but rather the clarification that the specific atonement theory (and there are many) that reformed theology seems to favor over all others does not does not speak to the "central tenets" of historical Christianity"

[57GotDrums]

Who has the lack of spritual maturity James?This was not something that was a result of the Reformation but a result of reading the scripture. You show that you do not even know history.

If you spent as much time in reading and the study of Gods Word as you do plastered in front of your computor on Emergent Nazarenes or Biblical Nazarene or Concerned about Concerned Nazarenes you may find a real change in your life and stop misleading your congregation.

Tim Wirth

[jfdiggs]

Wow Tim,

That is a pretty hypocritical statement considering all the time you spend in front of your computer working on your half dozen "concerned Nazarene" websites hunting down "heretics", not to mention the time you have spent here.

Let's see it's been almost a year now since you put this video into your blog and called my church heretical. You certainly have a lot of free time that might be better spent not only reading scripture but trying to live out the Way of Jesus according to it.

[TimOTee123]

This is a hurtful comment. I think our witness is called into question when we start attacking each other like this.

[auggiesurfer]

BUT, it is because of the grace of God that He gave us Jesus. He was fully God but fully man. yes he did meet us in our humanity. but he was without sin. so quit watering down the gospel and tell it for what it is. the gospel is powerful enough, through the working of the Holy Spirit, to bring repentance in a person's heart. the gospel is downright offensive. it should tear your heart in two to hear the gospel in its purest form.

[auggiesurfer]

my Bible says that the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. quit compromising on Biblical doctrine to make others feel better about themselves and tell them what we really look like in the presence of God! we are garbage! we are sinful! we are totally unacceptable in the sight of our holy, wrathful God!

[musikman2776]

Funny,here's an emergent church plant of the Nazarene denomination. Yet at the m7 conference Nazarene leader Nina Gunter calls the emergent church a threat to the Nazarene. It's here on youtube,check it out. I just looked at it.

[jfdiggs]

musikman,

The funnier thing is that not only did Nina object to the emergent church at a Nazarene event with dozens of emergent workshops, she was at the district assembly where my video was shown launching our church. Nina was a minority dissenter at M7 and I would take her comments with a grain of salt. After all she lumped in "reformed theology" and "Calvinism" as equal threats along with the emergent church. That doesn't make much sense.

[musikman2776]

Why is it I can't ever get an emergent to answer a simple question? Why did Jesus die on the cross?

[jfdiggs]

Musikman,

I am sorry I have not gotten back to you...I almost never check the comments here.

As for why Jesus died on the cross? He died first off because he being God became a human being making himself susceptible to things like death. This might seem obvious but it is very important. God in Christ met us in our humanity and all that goes with it, including suffering, sin and injustice. He became like us, so we could become like him and be united with him forever.

[feanor]

this is terrifying.. that Jesus' death, was a consequence of his natural life? RATHER than it being the divine will of his Father, which he found IMPOSSIBLE to reject or stray from? and when he claims, "it is finished!" is that not an exclamation of accomplishment? i think your view of the death of Christ is nothing short of blasphemous. Jesus Christ was sent to the cross for atonement for sinners, we must be very specific in how we discuss matters of salvation!

[feanor]

i suppose that explains your inability to answer whether an athiest will live eternally with God. Its a shame that the emergent church thinks that they are doing the world a favour by telling them that we are all equally loved by God, and therefore in equal states of salvation. this is not Biblical, which is the only argument that holds any water.

[feanor]

Im sorry but new flashy opinions on the gospel that attempt to drain the particularity and power from it are incredibly arrogant. not to mention untrue. i'd love to continue a dialogue on this.. feel free to answer to any of these statements.

[feanor]

Im sorry but new flashy opinions on the gospel that attempt to drain the particularity and power from it are incredibly arrogant. not to mention untrue. i'd love to continue a dialogue on this.. feel free to answer to any of these statements.

[jfdiggs]

feanor,

I am sorry that you find the humanity of Jesus terrifying, but the nature God incarnate in the flesh made Jesus predisposed to death just like all of us. This does not remove the fact that Jesus did not die from old age, but was killed on the cross because of the sinfulness of mankind. Nothing I said minimized the fact that Jesus met us in our sin on the cross. You are far too quick to label things framed in a different way or things you do not understand as "blasphemous".

[jfdiggs]

feanor,

If you want to have a real conversation about this, I encourage you to email me. There is not enough room on here with the 500 word limit to really have one without using endless multiple boxes that makes a real conversation hard to follow.

[feanor]

yes that would be good.. what i saw was your initial response to the death is his humanity. thats a fact. theres too much depth to the cross found in scripture to ignore. the emergent trend of thinking (in many pastors) has sought to totally generalize and rationalize the cross. and things like "he became like us so we could be like him" that totally lacks scriptural significance, anyway, give me your email

[jfdiggs]

feanor,

I would strongly disagree with you and hold to the idea that "he became like us so we could be like him" is entirely scriptural. Emphasizing the importance of the incarnation to our salvation in no way reduces the importance of the cross. God met us in our humanity through Jesus Christ and this continued in meeting us also in our sin and death on the cross. I am not ignoring the depth of the cross but I am also not ignoring the depth of the incarnation; which is scriptural.

[jfdiggs]

feanor,

You can contact me through the contact form at corridorchurch "dot" com and I will respond back to you with an email.

Peace,

James

[dprestinbelair]

To identify with both the Church of the Nazarene denomination and today's "Emergent Church" Movement, you are dangerously misreprenting both!

[jfdiggs]

dprestinbelair,

I am wondering if you are failing to understand the depth of what either or both the Church of the Nazarene or the "emergent church" really is about. I have found a lot of common ground while successfully navigating in both worlds. There also was an enormous emergent church presence at this past year's Nazarene M7 conference. I find that my emergent Nazarene friends often have a more clear understanding than most about our own Nazarene tradition.

[musikman2776]

If an athiest,lives the most love filled, compassionate life possible. They give every penny they make to the needy,they live as Jesus wants us to,but they totally do not belive Jesus existed. Will they end up in hell after death?

[itsADieL]

Yes the atheist ends up in hell after death. Not only because he has commited the greatest sin possible (denied and rejected His Creator)but he has also commited many other sins such as: Has he ever lied? Stolen? Taken Gods name in vain? Commited adultery (looking lust counts as commiting adultery), coveted, disobeyed his parents etc?

[jfdiggs]

Sorry for taking so long to respond, I did not think anyone would comment so I never checked. As to your question, I am not sure how to answer because I don't think the best question we can ask ourselves when it comes to faith is "how do we get into heaven and avoid hell."

[jfdiggs]

I will say that I know some "atheists" who seem far closer to the Kingdom than professing Christians. I wonder if they therefore follow Jesus in substance in a way that greatly contrasts those who only follow Jesus in name. If you believe that faith is all about just claiming his name to get our ticket punched for heaven, you may very well struggle with the concept of embracing the substance of an incarnational God who came to bring the Kingdom of Heaven to us in the here and now.

[musikman2776]

Im not sure,but it sounds like your partial to a so called "social doctrine". I guess my question to that sort of thinking is simply. Why did Jesus die on the cross? What was the purpose? Thank-you for the conversation by the way.

[jfdiggs]

As for being partial to a "social" gospel, I would like to remind you that the synonyms for the word "social" are community, communal, public, shared, and collective. As westerners we have skewed the gospel to over emphasize individuals and we often fail to embrace the community aspect of the gospel message. God came to restore us to himself and our neighbors.

[richschmidt]

Seems like here would be a good place to quote Jesus, when he said, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you."

[richschmidt]

An atheist who "lives as Jesus wants us to, but they totally do not believe Jesus existed." Well, isn't trusting and following our heavenly Father kind of a major part of "living as Jesus wants us to"? There's no right answer to the question being posed here. You're just setting him up.

[musikman2776]

"No right answer"? How does one not get sent to hell? By Jesus PAYING for their sins, or they can themselves. Calling on the name of Jesus is about atonement, not feeding the poor. People need the cloak of Christ's rightousness. They can be as rightous as a Pharisee,or Oprah for that matter and still end up in hell.

[richschmidt]

I tried replying once, and it seems to have vanished...

The original question contained a contradiction, which is why I said there's no right answer to it. It's kind of like the old "Can God create a rock so big even he can't lift it?" trap.

Still, I think I know what you're trying to ask. Yes, Jesus is the only way to the Father. To reject Jesus is to reject life. I think the pastor who posted the video would agree with that, too.

[musikman2776]

No contradiction. There are plenty of people who live, and act more like Jesus then many christians. My point was that some,not all, emergents think that this is in fact God's plan to make THIS world the perfect kingdom of God. Rob Bell I think makes this clear in his book Velvet Elvis, and in part his nooma video trees.

[musikman2776]

So my main intention was to see if this was Pastor Diggs style of emergent christianity as well. You see, if someone feeds the hungry cloth the poor, cure aids, ends all war, etc. They may be living more like a christian then most christians. However, they still have a sin problem.

[p1financial]

Who wrote your script?

[jfdiggs]

I decided what I would say for the video. The video was used at a district assembly for the Church of the Nazarene here in the DC area about a year ago. Our church plant is being supported through the Church of the Nazarene and a non denominational church in our area. I am not sure I would still describe what we are doing the same way, but I guess that is the nature of the journey.