Israel Wayne clip from "IndoctriNation"

[colinpscott]

I'm pretty sure Amendment 1 trumps Psalm 1

[txnyla1]

Why is there no sound on this when I can get it on every other you tube video?

[slurp503]

Excellent message, spot on!

[jkbatchos]

Actually as a former public school teacher for 13 years and a mom of 3 soon to be 4 kiddos who attended public school I saw their attitudes change after each started school. There was a lot more issues, to but it nicely. My husband and I decided it would be best if I quit teaching in the public school and stayed home to homeschool my kids, this is our second year and the change in behavior and attitude is amazing. I was first hand the decline of values in the school over the last 5 years.

[danhedman]

Israel is exactly right. Many people have kids because it's a "life experience" they don't want to miss. Then they both work so they can pay someone else to change the diapers all day and teach them the ABC's. Next, send them to a government school so they can learn all the state wants them to. If you don't believe in a higher purpose to this life, this would seem kay toyou. If you don't understand the truth he is stating, don't blame the messenger.

[Boreas171270]

Yeah, lock your kids in the basement with a Ken Ham video for 18 years, that is all they need! Imbecil...

[CarajilloDulce]

This guy is simply a Christian version of the Mullahs who would see children indoctrinated with religion rather than educated to think for themselves.

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce Yeah right!!! Think for themselves, you mean indoctrinate them in skepticism, to think as you do.

[CarajilloDulce]

@Christistruth1 Skepticism is hardly something one needs to be indoctrinated into. Rather, it is a defense mechanism against indoctrination. Being skeptical means that one would thoroughly explore and investigate something before deciding if it were valid or not. Religious fundamentalists will never encourage skepticism about their scripture restricted doctrines which require adherents to blindly "believe" by simply "having (unquestionable) faith" in what they are told.

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce "Skepticism is hardly something one needs to be indoctrinated into." That's a philosophical argument. "It's a defense mechanism against indoctrination." Atheism is a doctrine, by definition. So why not be skeptical about the atheist philosophy? (Now you're going to play semantics on the meaning of Atheism, scapegoat.) Why is skepticism valid? Why can't they be skeptical about their skepticism? Sure, they do, the Bible even states to be skeptical. Care to test that? Heres proof.

[CarajilloDulce]

@Christistruth1 I would encourage skepticism in all areas including atheism because it encourages the human mind to enquire rather than simply accept. The bible encourages skepticism.... fine, so what's your problem?

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce The problem I have is that schools are teaching solely to be skeptical of all religions, yet do not tell the student to be skeptical of their own skepticism. So, now tell me my friend, is the Bible wrong for encouraging skepticism of everything? I would say no, it's not in fact I would agree with it. So, why are you not skeptical about your own skepticism?

[CarajilloDulce]

@Christistruth1 Ah yes... skepticism of skepticism, and even skepticism of that skepticism is thought provoking and stimulating to the enquiring mind and therefore much to be preferred over the mind numbing blind faith indoctrination that the likes of Israel Wayne would see bestowed upon upon us.

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce "and therefor much to be preferred over the mind numbing blind faith indoctrination that the likes of Israel Wayne would see bestowed upon us." You tried to validate the argument with a subjective point of view, doesn't work, sorry.

[CarajilloDulce]

@Christistruth1 ..... in your subjective opinion that is. The likes of Israel Wayne would have children unquestioningly meditating on the bible without a hint of skepticism. Blind faith rather than a questioning and enquiring mind.... like good little sheep. Sounds like religious fundamentalist indoctrination to me.

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce Well of course, but it's true, since subjective opinions cary no weight. Of course there would be skepticism, the Bible asks us to even question the claims in it. Reasonable faith, not blind faith, the Bible speaks of trust, not blind faith. "Like good little sheep." The Bible calls people lost sheep, because sheep are stupid. Right lost sheep? "Sounds like religious fundamentalist indoctrination to me." Sounds like Secular fundamentalist indoctrination to me.

[CarajilloDulce]

@Christistruth1 ... yes, but it's not though, is it? Actually it's a lot of different opinions and ideas all mixed up.... the secular world that is. There is variance; some of a fundamentalist nature and some simply curiosity based... Wow! I'm alive.... Part of this universe.... Awesome! Let's explore it!. Encouraging our young people to be aware and to explore all that we are, would likely involve them being skeptical and questioning everything. A 24/7 study of bronze age myths hardly compares.

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce Sure it is. Yes, so if there's a lot of different opinions and ideas mixed up, I would call that confusion, wouldn't you? Yes, then being an atheist you take away TRUE purpose, and offer an illusion of purpose. That's what Religion does, totally getting rid of children's ability to believe in what they wan't have faith in who they want, and using Darwinian Evolution is a start. Sure, it would, the Bible says to be skeptical. "Bronze age myths." Subjective view. See, indoctrinated

[CarajilloDulce]

@Christistruth1 Sorry... that should have been variously translated & interpreted bronze age myths & anecdotes. I ran out of space. "True Purpose"... once again your subjective opinion. There again I suppose most, if not all opinions are essentially subjective. People should be free to develop their own opinions based upon exploration and investigation if they so wish. The bible says to be skeptical so I still fail to see your problem with skepticism encouraging people to think for themselves.

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce "that should have been variously translated and interpreted bronze age...etc." Subjective point of view that holds no water. Moving on. "Once again your subjective opinion." No, there's is an objective purpose, you have an illusory purpose. "Again I SUPPOSE most if not all opinions are essentially subjective." That's a subjective opinion too, that you can't even prove. So, again, moving on. Yet, you want to tell them to be skeptical of their faith and belief in God? Nice! cont

[CarajilloDulce]

@Christistruth1 The bible is undoubtably variously translated and interpreted. Just look at the divisions within it's adherent sects. The gospels are entirely anecdotal accounts by various authors, and then there are the fabulous fables of mystery and creation, a 900 old man with a boat full of animals, plants, and insects, and a magical deity who supposedly created everything in six days (although this is also a matter of contention amongst various sects).

[CarajilloDulce]

@Christistruth1 And, yes... I know it's a subjective opinion. I actually pointed that out. And again, yes, I would suggest that, rather than simply believing the mantra of some preacher, people are skeptical of, amongst many things, claims made religion. Young people especially should be encouraged to examine the evidence, research thoroughly their information, and explore the possible explanations rather than simply bowing down before some fundamentalist doctrine.

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce cont...I don't have a problem with skepticism, you just embrace your skepticism without being skeptical about it too. You say but don't do.

[CarajilloDulce]

@Christistruth1 And here you are just playing silly games.... skeptical of skepticism of skepticism of skepticism of skepticism. Why not just come out and say it... that skepticism is ok so long as it's not applied to your religious fundamentalist doctrine, and if it is applied to that doctrine should only be done in such a way as to reinforce the illusion.

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce No, I'm not, you merely accept skepticism, without even being skeptical of it. Do you doubt your doubt? That's because I'm not thinking that at all, in fact, the Bible says to be skeptical of any claims, atheists just don't believe in God, and those with the guts to admit what atheism is, claim that there is no God, now, how about being skeptical about that?

[CarajilloDulce]

@Christistruth1 Skepticism is something I practice; it is not a doctrine that one accepts or dispenses with. I am in fact skeptical of anyone who claims absolute surety in matters of the true nature of life, the universe, and everything. The truth is that nobody knows those things for sure. Of course, there are those who are deluded enough to believe that they have absolute knowledge, and others who deliberately lie in order to deceive. And then there are those who wish to find out.

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce Sure it's a doctrine, it's a philosophy, Skepticism (or Scepticism in the UK spelling), also known as Pyrrhonism or Pyrrhonic Skepticism after the early proponent Pyrrho of Elis, is the philosophical position that one should refrain from making truth claims, and avoid the postulation of final truths. How do you know nobody knows? How do you know they are deluded, if you don't know for sure that they don't know?

[CarajilloDulce]

@CarajilloDulce "Confusion".. so you are saying that in a secular society there is a force somewhere (it would be interesting to know from where exactly) which is purposely indoctrinating everyone into a state of confusion? Maybe it appears that way to you from your scripture restricted illusion of self righteous truth. There again, religions are riddled with confusion & contradiction from the various translations & interpretations of their scriptures alone. I prefer investigation & exploration.

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce I never said there was a force, but you described what skepticism was, different mixed up opinions. So who's right? Nobody, their confused. "from your scripture restricted illusion of self righteous truth." When did I say I was better? See, you seem to now be going on the offensive. Yes, I agree with you about religions. But not all religions are, you assume because many are, that all are. No, you prefer denial, and refusal to understand accurate interpretation.

[CarajilloDulce]

@Christistruth1 Define "accurate" interpretation. I am all in favour of teaching religion. Having in fact studied comparative religion I would like to have seen a broader spectrum taught in the school I attended as a child. I think it is important for people to experience and understand as broad a spectrum of human culture as possible. I do not however consider Israel Wayne's idea of having children spend all their time meditating on the bible a valid or good one.

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce It's boring when an atheist tries to play semantics. "Define 'accurate' interpretation." Accurate: Conforming exactly to fact; errorless. In order for you to be accurate with your interpretation, you need to understand Hebrew and Greek texts, since it was in those languages the Bible was first written in. "I do not however consider..." That's asinine, for what you consider is pointless.

[CarajilloDulce]

@Christistruth1 No more or less pointless than your considerations and opinions. I was not aware that you were a Hebrew scholar. Being one, you will surely be aware of the differences in interpretation and translation that exist amongst such, there being no overall accepted version.

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce Great, then we both have pointless opinions. :) No, there hasn't been, that's why I tell people if you're going to read or even study the Bible look for one with Hebrew and Greek translations. Also it doesn't invalidate it any less.

[CarajilloDulce]

@Christistruth1 They are just opinions. It matters not to me if you choose to believe in the bible, vedas, koran, or nothing at all. It's your life and you have the freedom to choose. My point all along has been that the likes of Israel Wayne would see children deprived of the variety of information and possibilities by having them spend all day meditating on his choice of belief system... the bible. I think they should be able to make their own informed choice without suffering indoctrination.

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce It matters not to me if you're skeptic, but stay out of my child's faith. "..would see children deprived of the variety of information and possibilities by having them spend all day meditating on his choice of belief system...the Bible." Parent's have the right to teach their children their faith, and who's to say he doesn't tell them of the different religions and beliefs? I tell my children. Children belong to the parent's, when a child becomes an adult, it's up to them.

[CarajilloDulce]

@Christistruth1 I have already pointed out that I am in favour of religious education. I am totally in favour of children having access to all information. They should have the right to self determination. Your idea of indoctrinating your children with your particular form of religious fundamentalism deprives them of the opportunity of being widely informed and making their own decision for their life. It's their life not yours so don't abuse it.

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce No, it doesn't deprive them, that's a point of view. While I, and I'll say it again I, inform them of these things. You're under the illusion that children at a young age can rationalize something so complex as religious for themselves, without guidance. "It's their life not yours so don't abuse it." They are OUR children not yours, let us decide how they should be raised.

[CarajilloDulce]

@Christistruth1 What is the Jesuit maxim "Give me a child for for his first seven years and I'll give you the man".... at least they're honest about their indoctrination.

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce Christian parent's train or are instructed to train Children in righteousness, in respect, and love. To learn that everyone has a purpose, a true purpose not an illusion of one. In learning these things, the become and can become better adults, as they grow, IF they choose to follow their upbringing. I've seen many atheists on here who disrespect Christians, who curse, who have no respect for authority. And are under an illusion of purpose, a selfish one.

[CarajilloDulce]

@Christistruth1 I love the "better adults" part. Better than who exactly? Have you seen the documentary "Jesus Camp"? I'd be interested to hear your (yes.. I know it's only subjective and doesn't actually matter) opinion on it. I couldn't care less whether adults want to be Christian, Muslim, Atheist, or just themselves. My point is that they should have access to all the information & not just what they're force fed when young. What's so great about being brainwashed into respecting authority?

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce Better than people who are not loving, respectful, righteous i.e. do good, honoring, seeing value and true purpose.  That "Jesus camp" preaches a false doctrine, there are false doctrines all over that video. Who says we don't have access? Who says it's brainwashing? I could say you've brainwashed yourself to believe that what you do is true or even valid.

[CarajilloDulce]

@Christistruth1 Well, of course, you can say what you like but it matters not, as you have no idea how I live. Thank you for your opinion of the contents of Jesus Camp. It is indeed a bunch of fanatics abusing children in the name of the lord which is a disgusting way to behave. How about the likes of Kent Hovind and his Young Earth Evangelical Fundamentalism where he parades himself as a doctor and uses pseudo science to hoodwink folk into believing his nonsense? Any "honour" in that?

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce And you have no idea how I live. I believe you're right about that Jesus Camp, there's false doctrines there, false teachings, it's just flat out not right. I don't know anything about his PhD. I have no idea where he attained it, personally I've seen some arguments that are pretty good for a young earth, but the Bible never says the age of the earth, and I believe the earth is about as old as believed by science.

[CarajilloDulce]

@Christistruth1 Wel, I wouldn't worry too much about Hovind. His "doctorate" is in Christian Education (nothing wrong in that) and was awarded for an absolute hash of a dissertation by the Patriot Bible University correspondence school. Hovind palms himself off as a science teacher but he's just a YEEC fundamentalist preacher desperate to prove his particular interpretation of the bible is true. I think cosmologist Hugh Ross makes far more sense and is obviously a lot smarter than Hovind.

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce Here's the problem, who says that it has to be Harvard, or any other large university?? Who says? We've got one camp saying they're not accredited and one saying they are. From what I've seen, in the past he's won almost if not all his debates. But I do find Hugh Ross very interesting.

[CarajilloDulce]

@Christistruth1 Well, it could have been a small university, but it's not size that matters, it's quality. Hovind's dissertation was a joke, no table of contacts, 4 chapters instead of the 16 he claimed it had, and full of grammatical errors and spelling mistakes. What's worse is that it contained absolutely no original research. I could set up a mail order diploma mill along the lines of the Patriot Bible University and sell doctorates to desperate folk like Hovind. Cash for trash.

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce "it's the quality." And you've been thee to know the quality of education they give? "Hovind's dissertation was a joke, no table of contracts, 4 chapters instead of the 16 he claimed it had." How do you know? Where did you get this information from and how did you verify it? "and full of grammatical errors and spelling mistakes." You saw it with your own eyes? Who told you this, and how did you verify it??? "it contained absolutely now original research." How did you verify?

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce cont...Now, you've made some very strong accusations, where's your evidence, if someone told you, how then did you verify it? In order for you to know these things, you would have either ; 1. Have been there. 2. Went to that school. 3. Know someone who went there and saw it happen. 4. Found full documentation with your ow eyes. 5. Someone found full documentation and put it on line (but then it's validity would come into question.) 6. You heard it from someone else. Which one?

[CarajilloDulce]

@Christistruth1 Nobody is saying that the Patriot Bible University is "accredited"... not even the Patriot Bible University or Hovind say that. I'm not sure what your personal definition of "winning" is but in all the debates where I've seen Hovind partake he's come across as a complete idiot (watch him debate Hugh Ross for example). For Hovind, if it does not agree with his YEEC fundamentalist interpretation of the bible, it doesn't exist (and he calls that retarded view scientific!)

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce Actually, they do say it. Actually, Hovind has exposed contradictions in many of the people he'd debated. Now, there are things I don't agree with, but that's fine, most of what he's done to expose the Darwinian view, really makes a lot of sense, even evolutionary scientists have no answers for. You view him as an idiot, because of your world view.

[CarajilloDulce]

@Christistruth1 Ha Ha... that really rattled your cage didn't it! Hovind is a dickhead and his dissertation has been available in the public domain for a long time. If it's not the real thing then why didn't Hovind simply release a copy of the "the real dissertation" in order to dispel all myths? Kent Hovind is actually a professional comedian masquerading as YEEC fundamentalist preacher. he is now locked up with what one might term a "captive audience".

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce What rattled my cage? I'm not an avid follower of Hovind. His dissertation that is available wasn't even his whole dissertation only part of it. Also, the person who requested that dissertation, claimed to be an avid fan of his, when in actuality it wasn't, it was an atheist trying to expose him as a fraud, what does that say of the honesty and under handed tactics? He doesn't have to release a copy. cont...

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce Besides if you're read the actual charges, they're fraudulent anyway.

[CarajilloDulce]

@Christistruth1 I am still of the opinion (for what it's worth) that having kids meditate on the bible the whole time is a very narrow approach to education. I'd feel the same way if they were taught nothing but mathematics. Israel Wayne's approach is simply too focused on just one element of our understanding and culture as human beings, and I still think that it handicaps rather than enlightens children to be so streamed educationally.

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce Well, that's your opinion, and mine differs you're absolutely correct. I am of the opinion that it is not. I think it does enlighten children, there are a lot of benefits I believe.

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce cont...Finally, it's not up to our schools to lead them from their faith, but to encourage who they are, and who they will later choose to become. The public school system should not be a stage for skepticism.

[CarajilloDulce]

@Christistruth1 As for "boring".... spending all day meditating on the bible would probably be a suitable definition of the term.

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce Subjective opinion. Anyway, goodbye.

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce cont..A simple man believes anything, but a prudent man gives thought to his steps. (Pr 14:15), It is not good to have zeal without knowledge, nor to be hasty and miss the way. (Pr 19:2), Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. (Jn 10:37), Test everything. Hold on to the good. (1 Thes 5:21). I can go on, and on, see, Christ, and the Bible encourages skepticism, you just want children to be skeptical without questioning that skepticism.

[Christistruth1]

@CarajilloDulce cont...Here's more...Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. (1 Jn 4:1),

[ThomasLowe1]

Amen brother! You are speaking truth!