so you mean that im not save, in other words my salvation its sure until my name passes in front of jesus in the most holy place ,,what happens with repent, accept jesus and you will be save,,base on what the pastor is saying at this point since my name has come assuming in front of jesus,im not save,,,this does not click,,either im save now or not.
@joeplacetas1 If you repent, accept Jesus and put your trust fully in Jesus you will be saved. There is no question about that. But yes Jesus is following the OT sanctuary pattern in type as far as the judgment is concerned. Judgement begins with the house of God to see just who really is "in Christ" and not mearly professing with the lips yet having a heart far from God. God discerns between the wheat and the tares IN the church.
@sleanos listen,,you have answer my question,,in fact let tell you that im not just any one from out there,,i'am a soled seventh day Adventist for more than 27 years,,i understand our doctrine 100% how ever we have a situation here with the salvation,,while the sanctuary doctrine make sense,,only when when it comes to the investigative judgment is when i have a problem with it,,the bible clearly states that when we receive Jesus we are saved,saved,saved,cant you get that ?
@joeplacetas1 Please be respectful otherwise I will not be answering you questions. I completely understand what you are saying, but YOU know very well that we DO NOT believe in "Once saved, ALWAYS saved". Everyday we must stay connected to Christ, examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith and surrender OUR wills to His. That is the work/part we do in the plan of salvation. God does the rest to save us. God always gives us a choice in following Him or not daily. Understand?
@sleanos So long as day by day we surrender ourselves to Him, God can work in us. Do not confuse justification (coming to Christ initially and being saved at the moment) with the work of sanctification where by God is the potter and we are the clay being tried in the fire and refined day by day. (Being cleansed, sanctified and refined/renewed day by day to reflect Christ more fully). So long as we do not choose to remove ourselves from the hands of God and His will we will be saved.
@sleanos you tell me in what have i disrespected you,,just because i asked you some thing with out any sugar coding,,cant you take a little pressure and you bend so easy,how can you deal with the trouble times ahead,go ahead,block me or do the same that the so call patriarchs among as are accustom to do.,once again,no one is talking about ,once saved, always saved, that dint even come to my mind,question ? are you save now ?if you can answer this question,than i rest my case,,thank you.
@joeplacetas1 It is the tone in which you speak "we are saved,saved,saved,cant you get that ?" As if I didn't understand or couldn't understand. As Christians we are to give offense in nothing. Clearly something is seriously bothering you based on this response.
@sleanos its no tone here,,it is strait to point,nothing bothers me,,but like i said if you were capable of answering the question,i was than to rest my case in reference to the subject which it was about the investigative judgment,,you did answer my question,,now you need to look at the investigative judgment and see if you are really save.base on that along,now you say it was my tone,before you said disrespect,,so which one..please, I REST MY CASE,
@joeplacetas1 Your response is full of arrogance and assumption. What case could you possibly have made? A better course would have been to see if what you believe about the I.J. and what I believe about the I.J. is in line with what the Bible teaches first on the matter and the Adventist church teaches in it's doctrines secondarily. I will let you know that the manner in which you came at me is enough to push many people away. You may want to reconsider your approach next time.
@joeplacetas1 And to answer your question... today as of right now I believe I have the assurance of eternal life in Christ. I have no unconfessed or unforsaken sins. (That does not mean that I am sinless of course). Tomorrow is another story though. And God's Grace is sufficient for the day. So long as I believe and rely on Him day by day I believe I will be saved in His kingdom when He comes. But I do not presume to know that 100%. God will ultimately decide. But I have peace in Him now.
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
the sacrificial phase of Jesus has taken place back then at his asention. also
for our hearts to be sprinkled from an evil contience could not have taken place if SDA 1844 is true jesus never entered the holiest. heart represents the ark which contains the commandments. hence no new covenent by the SDA. SDA fools
@ninnzbinnz You don't know your bible very well. The sanctuary was given as an example by God to represent the work of Christ. The high priest back then entered into the Holy of Holies once to consecrate it with the blood of animal BEFORE dealing with the daily sacrifices, likewise, when Jesus ascended He consecrated the Holy of Holies once with His own blood, and then intercedes daily for us as well. Study it out as God says His way is in the sanctuary as an example to the work of Christ.
@sleanos he holds back the wrath no doubt. but remember the high preist cleansed the holy of holies at the end of the year to cleanse the temple from the dirt built up the year prior. also the sprinkling of the OT ark of covenent aka the NT heart of the human temple. I will write my laws into flesh not tables of stone. initiation of NT with humanity. HEb says now once has he offered up the sacrifice. no a partial sacrifice but complete. SDA cleansing of the sanctuary in 1844 lie. read and learn
If you say 1844 is a lie then you are accusing Jesus of being a deluded false prophet.
In Matthew 24:15, where He talks of the abomination that causes desolation, He PRIMARILY refers to the transgression of desolation in Daniel 8:13.
That is the 1st mention of the abomination that causes desolation by the prophet Daniel. Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11 are all refering to the same abomination in Daniel 8:13.
This means that the little horn in Daniel 8:9 cannot be the Greek Antiochus Epiphanes but that it is Roman, pagan/papal.
This also means that we are left with no option but to do the calculation of Daniel 8:14 of the 2,300 days by using the start date in Daniel 9:25 as the events of Daniel 8:13 are AFTER A.D. 31& doing the calculations that way will reflect that truth, hence 1844.
Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
the 1st tabernacle phase is completed (aka "not yet standing") in full and finished when christ became our high priest at his resurrection. not 1844
@ninnzbinnz Sorry friend. I don't agree with your interpretation of things here. Study out the 70 week prophecy, the 1260-1290 year prophecy and the 2300 year prophecy that ties them all together and compare against the IT sanctuary services. You are making the scriptures say more than they do. Jesus is in the Holy compartment serving as our high priest daily bringing our petitions mixed with His righteousness before the throne of God according to scripture and the OT sanctuary pattern.
@ninnzbinnz the context of tt chapter is that the ministration into the heavenly sanctuary could not have happened while the earthly sanctuary was still there. the writer is not talking about which apartment christ went in after ascension. Christ entered the sanctuary after His ascension but into the second apartment in 1844 to begin preadvent judgement read Daniel 7vs9-10
@choppingwater According to the pattern given us of the OT sanctuary and the words of Christ Himself, Jesus is "seated at the right hand of the Father" so He is ministering in the Most Holy Place. He is not in the courtyard (symbolized by His death on the cross) nor is He in the "holy place" (2nd compartment), not to be confused with calling the temple itself the "holy place".
@choppingwater Keep in mind, the OT sanctuary is just a model and symbolizes the work of the Messiah. Noone's killing animals up there and I'm sure the actual temple of God in heaven (not to be confused with our bodies which are also the temple of God) is much more grandiose than anything we can possibly imagine. I say this as a matter of faith/trust in God based on prayerfully studying scripture.
@ninnzbinnz ... No New Covenant for SDA? Are you even aware what the New Covenant is? "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people." (Hebrews 8:10) On the contrary - if you have no law (or think them void) you have no New Covenant. Typical ... all justification with no sanctification. Cheap, easy grace.
1844 big year, Marx's first writings, first telegram sent invented by morse from London to New York, Joseph Smith Martyred and the first safe invented. It also marks the beginning of the exponential spurt growth of modern technology. The Bab of Persia proclaimed that He was the promised Qaim meaning 'the One who will make manifest' a Messenger of God called Baha'u'llah meaning 'The Glory of God' or 'Glory of the Father' hold here it comes..... in 1844. The Bab is still proclaiming on Mt Carmel
To answer the speaker: It is because we have read Hebrews for ourselves that we reject the Investigative Judgement. It is clear to all who study that book from beginning to end that Christ entered the most Holy place after His work at Calvary.
The only reason other-wise Biblical people still try to rationalize this fallacy is that if it is you can't very well hold Ellen White as the "infallible interpreter of Scripture."
@salmagnum You've been reading way to many critics against the faith. You sound like Walter Martin on the sda debates online. sillliness. And Ellen White is not the infallible interpreter of Scripture. Her writings are simply in harmony WITH scripture. Scripture tests ALL writings.
You know Sleanos I have realised that at least 90% of protestant Christianity teaches 1844! Have you seen that? It is unavoidable in the SEVEN CHURCHES of Rev 2/3 & they teach that these CHurches are prophetic & that the Roman catholic church is the Jezebel church of Thytira.
So these people are giving us a hard time about 1844 when majority of their churches actually teach it. They just fail to see it in Dan 8 because they do not want to hear a thing about JUDGEMENT.
If Christ entered the most Holy place after His work at Calvary, then does that mean He has finished ALL His work? If so, what is He doing now? Why has He not come back? Why are we still here & why are we still sinning if we are FULLY ATONED FOR & are AT ONE with God???
It is really a mystery as to how people are failing to see IJ in Dan 8 when its so clear & is a REPETITION of Dan 7 where IJ is right there in Dan 7:10.
I mean the bottom line is that the time prophecy of the 2,300 days is NOWHERE to be found in the INTERPRETATION, hence the angel coming back to EXPLAIN IT in Dan 9.
Also, the 2,300 days INCLUDE THE ENTIRE VISION of Dan 8, not just the trampling of the Temple. It includes the Persian empire building the 2nd Temple.
Hence, though the little horn of Daniel 7 is specifically the 5th kingdom or the Papacy, yet the little horn of Daniel 8 primarily represents the Pagan Roman Empire and then this career is repeated by the Roman Church and will be repeated by the Protestant Churches. All three phases of the 4th beast then is covered by this little horn of Daniel 8.
You mentioned that the little horn of Daniel 8 represents the fifth kingdom. It is true that this is so in a secondary way. However, the little horn of Daniel 8 must be parallel to the 4th dreadful beast of Daniel 7 and also the legs of iron in Daniel 2.
@LambAndTheDragon no one knows exactly how much time is left. We just know most of the signs the Lord has given have come to pass already. There was a great spiritual awakening to the truths of the Bible around the world. It is referred to as the second great awakening by most Christian circles/historians.
You need to stop running others down! All you do is condemn. I don't see you fight the good fight. No one in their right mind would like to be impolite but it does get difficult. One can judge you as well & say you are not helping others come to truth. You told Kindomentality that Christians from all denominations will be saved.
Well one can say you are a false prophet who wants an easy life & chooses to prophesy smooth things to avoid friction.. What you told him is WRONG!
May God bless you for your honesty & your refusal to share BlueCatsRock's condemnation of other people. I like that you told him/her that you don't always handle controversial topics as well as she/he claims you do.
Its not an easy job to do & those like BlueCats who critisize others only afford to do so because they are seating on the fence & are not getting involved.
Its all too easy to critisize.. She/he made the same comment on another video condemning others. NOT GOOD!
To all having IJ related difficulty; please obtain "Sanctuary Path To The throne" and study. Easy? No, it requires work. Re Dan. 8:14 "sanctuary will be cleansed"; how about; "restored to it's rightful place" does that help. In Rev. 11 "rise and measure the temple (sanctuary)", here again, study the sanctuary. The Millerites neglected this work. Consequently, they had to endure ridicule.
Why is the word of God made to sound so confusing? Why do we have to believe in the investigative judgement? Why is Ellen G. White the only prophet of the SDA church? Why do SDA's have to validate her teachings? Would I be considered a christian if I do not believe all of what she is saying? Would I think the same way if I read the bible without a prophet or prophetess to guide me? Forgive me for not understanding I don't mean any harm.
@ncdynasty "Why is Ellen G. White the only prophet of the SDA church? Why do SDA's have to validate her teachings?"
God had sent others, but at Ellen White's time she was the only one who did what the Lord told her to do in regards to delivering His messages to the people through the prophetic gift. SDA's and all Christians should validate her message through the Word of God because Jesus said many false prophets would come. There would be true ones though as well. Word of God tests all.
@ncdynasty "Would I be considered a christian if I do not believe all of what she is saying?"
Not sure, all depends on what you are doing. Jesus said if you love Him you'll obey Him and bear fruit (in your character, life, work, witness, etc). Do you have a loving relationship with God? Are you walking in all the light you know and understand?
@ncdynasty "Would I think the same way if I read the bible without a prophet or prophetess to guide me?"
You'll have to answer that one for yourself. I can safely say that I do think the same way having read the Bible for myself before ever investigating the writings of Ellen White.
@sleanos I have read the bible before investigating the writings of Ellen White. I don't think exactly the same way. But, I would think the same as her if I relied on her to interpret the bible.
@ncdynasty So you don't believe that our salvation comes from Jesus Christ alone as a free gift of love? You don't believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God able to reach the hearts and minds of humanity. You don't believe the 10 commandments at a minimum are an expression of the type of God of Love we serve and that He has given us power through the indwelling 3rd person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit to obey all His commandments and precepts?
@sleanos So, you basically telling me that if I don't believe EVERYTHING she has written I am denying the essentials of the word of God? Just remember the enemy will try to impart a small lie in truth. A little leaven leave leaveneth the whole lump.
@ncdynasty She? I just quoted you what the Bible teaches and asked you a simple question. What I just stated, many denominations believe as well even if they argue the subtler points. What part of what I just stated do you not agree with? Let's not beat around the bush shall we.
@sleanos I know that we have to live a Holy lifestyle, The word of God states that. But, I don't Believe in what she writes about 1844 and the Investigative Judgement. There is nothing that could be said that would cause me to believe in 1844 Jesus went into the Holy of Holies, etc. Forgive me for taking up your time-God Bless.
@ncdynasty All I can tell you is to study the Old Testament sanctuary service (along with the prophecies of Daniel). It serves as a model to illustrate the work of the Messiah. The Old Testament ceremonial sabbaths prophetically illustrate events in the work of the messiah as well. It all points to Jesus and the work He would, has and will do until all is complete and sin, death, the devil and the wicked are no more. God bless.
Let me just say one thing. I have studied the IJ now for about 13 yrs. I also learned some amazing things. EGW never came up with the Investigative Judgment. Several pioneers from various denominational backgrounds did--Baptist, Congregationalist, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc. came to this conclusion based on scripture, ALL on their own. At first EGW was confused, so she prayed to God to help her understand it. Later she was given a vision confirming what the pioneers discovered was true.
(cont.) I would recommend a book to you. Oh please take the time to read this book! Please do! Do not procrastinate, as you will be amazed after you read it! Please purchase the book "The Sanctuary, 1844 And The Pioneers" by Paul A. Gordon. You can get it for $4.00 at the AdventistBookCenter . com (just hit search). This book will set the record straight about the Investigative Pre-Advent Judgment! Do yourself a favor, and read it! It's cheap! God bless you bro!
Is there an investigative Judgment? YES! Is the daily referring to the Sacrifice of Christ? NO! the Pioneers correctly understood the daily as referring to Paganism as the hebrew word is used as a noun here and no where else in scripture. Early Writings page 74 makes it clear that the correct understanding of the daily was held by the original pioneers and that it should be understood as Paganism which is taken away by Papalism. 2 thes 2:7-8 lets us know that the apostles understood this!
I agree! My dad read the book "The Daily" by Merrian Berry, and that's what convinced him. Data is just too sound. Daily, or "Continuum" of the Office of Paganism was taken away and usurped by Papal authority.
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
I wonder if this man has read Hebrews 9 or John 5:24. Yes, those who are saved will be judged but this judgment will not determine our eternal destiny because for those who are saved there will be no condemnation.
Yes this man knows all about Hebrews 9 & John 5:24. One thing you must understand about the judging of the saints that is going on right now. It is not for God's benefit (He knows all things) but for the rest of His created beings that they may know & understand His ways. IF those who call themselves Christians have put their trust in Jesus making Him Lord & Savior of their lives, the judgment will show this & then their is NO condemnation to those who believe.
Then how does he reconcile the Investigative Judgment with the passages just cited? John 5:24 states that we have eternal life now and that we will not be condemned. Hebrews 9 refutes the notion of any Investigative judgment going on presently.
Read another translation (Ex: Amplified Bible) How do you interpret was is written below?
John 5:24I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, the person whose ears are open to My words [who listens to My message] and believes and trusts in and clings to and relies on Him Who sent Me has (possesses now) eternal life. And he does not come into judgment [does not incur sentence of judgment, will not come under condemnation], but he has already passed over out of death into life.
The word "believes" comes from the Greek word "pestuo" which literally translated into English is "to trust" The AV translates this single word into 9 words, " believes and trusts in and clings to and relies..." A bit excessive I believe. But it's clear as water. He who believes has eternal life NOW. He will NOT be JUDGED. This leaves no room for any investigative judgment cause the verdict is already in, at the moment of faith: has eternal life...has passed from death to life...no judgment!
Yes, agreed. Justification, when we come to Christ we have the PROMISE of eternal life at that very moment. But you are mistaken about the investigative judgment. Read the parable of the Unforgiving Slave in Matthew 18:23-35. Pay attention to the last line.
Also read: 1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
@99percentatheist - Clearly you are ignoring - "But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Rom. 14:10, NKJV."
Only those found to have been living in Christ will be found not guilty (No condemnation for those in Christ Jesus). I pray you allow God's spirit & word to live in your heart & mind making Jesus truly your Lord of your life and not just Savior. God bless
@MyHopeisJesusChrist yes. The investigative judgment now that ends just prior to the second coming of Christ. Then the executive judgment by fire after the heavenly city returns down to earth where the wicked and eventually destroyed forever.
This passages clearly teach that Christ atoned for our sins at the time of his assention not in 1844. Heb. 6:19,20 Heb. 8:1,2 Heb. 9:23-26. We don't have to wait for his return for the work to be completed: Heb. 10:10-14,18-22, Colossians 2:13, We have eternal life now I john 5;13. These are just some of many many passages that contradict the investigative judgment doctrine.
What you've presented is a straw man argument against what Adventist believe sir. Christ DID completely atone (die) for our sins on the cross. That part of the plan of salvation IS complete. But the bible also teaches that He CONTINUES to intercede and atone for us. The conflict between Satan & Christ is not completely over as yet and will not be until the 2nd coming, at which point Satan will be made to pay for the incursion he made with sin on heaven & earth.
I don't believe you fully understand nor have studied out the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment from an Adventist perspective fully to sit here and try to say the Bible refutes it. Especially when scripture is full of stories of the Lord and angels visiting man to "investigate" before pronoucning judgment. Remember the story of Sodom & Gmorrah with the angels and Angel of the Lord visiting Abraham for example.
Sleanos is right. As long as Christ is our High Priest, he is "atoning" for us. The role of a High Priest is to "atone", or "make intercession". The atonement of sacrifice was complete, but that's only part of the grand "atonement". As long as sin exists, there must be an intercessor. Second Coming of Christ = End of Atonement. As soon as Christ steps out of the Most Holy Place, Probation for all humanity has closed.
Hebrews 10:26 says: "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." This proves that intercession for these sins is currently being made. If atonement was over, the world would be over. Nobody could repent. As long as "repentance" exist, "atonement" must exist. You can't say 'atonement is complete", but yet still be able to repent. That's impossible.
I'm forgiven and assured of it. I am also RESPONSIBLE to search my heart; I am instructed to EXAMINE myself; I am admonished to WORK OUT my salvation. I am saved on His merit and then He expects me to live a life that is holy which is the fruit of His work. The fig tree was destroyed because it bared no figs. The proof, the evidence, the testimony of the reality of my salvation is in my lifestyle. It amazes me that people have trouble with that.
I think no need for debate....just let the holy spirit guide each one of us and ask for help.god didnt want us to battle in anyway but to seek the truth, for the truth is just a reading away...read your bible and find out for yourself...I admire Mr. Dough, he is indeed a servant of God..
i wanted to get some insight but mr. bachelor you failed. your opening arguments was not biblical and seemed as if you were trying to make sense of it for yourself.
What a judgmental comment and condemning spirit. Just an fyi:
1) This presentation was an expository talk for a Sabbath school class based on ONE of 13 lessons for an entire Quarter on the subject of the sanctuary and 1844.
2) Want an in depth explanation? Study you Bible.
3) Care for an Adventist complete scriptural view point? Grab any of the often free materials online from Adventist websites on the matter. Sabbath School for example.
Just FYI: A great book about 1844 is called, "1844 made Simple" by Clifford Goldstein. The basis of 1844/Judgment is not in Dan 8:14 but also in several verses in Dan. 7:8-14, vs.21-22, and 25-27. Heres the progression 1. AntiChrist power. 2. Judgment scene 3. 2nd coming. Judgment takes place not at A.D. 31 as many proposed but before Christ coming. For further evidence check out these verses written many years after 31 A.D. Acts 17:31;24:25; Rom. 2:16;14:10-12;Heb 10:30.
I am a Seventh-day Adventist myself. For 22 years I went to Sunday Presbyterian Church. No one in my family is Adventist but myself. I accept a lot of Adventist doctrine but I just cant seem to swallow IJ and 1844. Lately I consider myself just a Sabbatarian Christian who believes in the Word of GOD that so happens to go to a Seventh-day Adventist Church. thank you.
I want to encourage you to not give up studying the IJ doctrine. Being raised SDA, the first 20 years of my life, I tried to understand it, and could not. However, after deep eschatological study over the last 10 years, everything opened up to me in one grand panoramic view! Words can't describe just how amazing this doctrine is and what its moral purpose for us. To begin with, it is very easy to prove that the 2300 yrs(8:14) start in the very same year as the 70 weeks of Dan 9:24.
Hi, I invite you to visit the website that my husband and I recently launched, "Sabbatismos: Finding Our Rest in Christ." I actually just wrote a paper which I posted on our site and I think you may find it helpful. (Scroll to the very bottom of the homepage and click on the picture of the pink lady slipper flowers).
Why would you feel bad for Dr. Ford if he is in error? Error must be rebuked. EGW even said that those who reject the Investigative Judgment, the light goes out behind them and the path becomes darkness. I'm not sure why you would feel "bad" about someone losing a battle if they are on the wrong side.
Because he's ganna further expose himself as a Jesuit and end up lost if he pursists in his errors. There is nothing wrong with feeling bad for those who will be lost if they dont repent.
I agree with you. I thought I should remind you that our "good friend" contradomingo is not for Doug Batchelor like I assumed, or perhaps you assumed as well. I learned in an email very quickly that he as well is vehemently against the 1844 Investigative Judgment. =/ His arguments against it come from Calvinism, that we've all been "predestined". Unfortunately it is impossible to see the Investigative Judgment when you're filled with the error of Predestination in your mind.
WE can never be perfect on this earth in our human form but it is because of the righteousness of Christ and the example he set for us to follow, that makes us AIM to be perfect.
Be perfect as your Father in HEAVEN in perfect. We are on Earth. The best thing we can do is AIM to be perfect. Christ will make up the rest. He that endures and overcomes temptation will receive a crown of life. God bless you all to the TRUTH
The problem I have with all this "entering the most holy in 1844" is that did not Jesus ascend to his Father at the resurecction? Is not the Father represented by the most holy place? If so, When Jesus ascended to heaven from earth, he must have not seen His Father until 1844. And pardon me, but I find that crazy, I would think he'd see his Father immediately upon entering heaven. The Sanctuary system has some holes in it. Watch Desmond Fords videos, his questions are very valid.
"Did Jesus ascend to to His Father at the resurrection?" - No not immediately. Jesus speaking to Mary after the resurrection: Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
It is only your interpretation of 1844 that makes very little sense. You'll need to study your bible more carefully along with the Old Testament sanctuary and the book of Hebrews. It is Desmond Fords videos that have holes in them.
Its not a matter of when Jesus "saw" the father sir, its a matter of when he entered into the next phase of his heavenly minuistry. In the type the high priest ministered FIRST in the holy place. If Jesus was to be faithful to the type, which ic Gods very word, he must also "minister" in the holy place, and THEN the most holy place. Yea, its really that simple.
no DOUG, the problem people have with the investigative judgment is that it teaches we must stand in judgment without Jesus Christ - my Bible says He will never leave me nor forsake me. My perfect and good deeds are still filthy rages that don't merit me salvation - only the righteousness of Christ.
Then you're problem is NOT with Seventh-day Adventist teachings on the Invetigative judgement, but with some other groups version of it. Bible clearly teaches that EVERYONE (saints and wicked) will stand before God on that day. ONLY those who truly abide in Christ will not be condemned (no verdict of guilty as Jesus's righteousness is accredited to us). Everyone else will stand WITHOUT the blood of the Lamb on there behalf and be punished according to their works.
i agree with what you are telling me about what the BIBLE teaches... however, many Adventists have taught, including EGW, that the believers must stand before God in judgment (not "on that day" like you say but...) on whichever day their judgment comes up - hence the investigative judgment. And if they don't have a perfect character and have not confessed and repented of all sin, including motives and their influence on others after they are dead... then they are lost - going to hell.
"On that day" IS judgment day. It is not subjective to when a person passes, but will occur after the second coming of Christ for ALL. There is too much evidence from the apostles that speak of judgment day in the future tense, a judgment day (one day) for ALL. The bible calls us all to be perfect, to continue to strive in the faith, progress heavenly upward in heart and character by the Grace of God. To NOT do this is to go the opposite way. Grow in Grace friend. THAT is the message.
To know to do good and yet NOT do it, it is sin. Sin leads to death. (I know you don't need the scripture reference for these two powerfully paraphrased scriptures.)
Knowing sin and still doing it regardless just for the fun of it or to be rebelious is not just a sin its the unpardonable sin. A sin against the holy ghost and our conscience.
Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
(Plus whatever else God commands, once we read and understand)
Committing sin in and of itself is NOT the unpardonable sin (they all can be forgiven). Continuously pushing aside (grieving) the Holy Spirit's calling to you & your conscience not to commit wrongs, is the unpardonable sin.
I believe that the term "unpardonable sin" is actually a little misleading. What you said is essentially correct, that if we constantly ignore the Holy Spirit's call to stop sinning that we will lose sight and communion with God. But even the worst sinner could sincerely repent, even after a lifetime of committing wrongs in the eyes of God. I know what you mean, I'm just squeamish with that particular saying. Keep up the good work and don't let folks like Bingolly1 get you down.
I agree, the worst of us can be saved by God's grace, however, and I'm not saying I know the threshold, a person can come to a point in their life where it's mighty dangerous to reject God's saving Grace and be lost. Noah & the Flood, Sodom & Gmorrah for example. Today is the day of salvation. I pray everyone makes that choice now.
The only sin God cannot forgive is the one we do not repent of and ask for forgiveness. What is that about? So if I forget to repent a sin I have forgotten about in the past I am doomed to hell.
The unpardonable sin is to reject Jesus Christ as the son of God and his death on the cross for our sins and the Gospel of Grace..
"So if I forget to repent a sin I have forgotten about in the past I am doomed to hell."
Not necessarily. God only holds you accountable for what you know. And you should be ASKING God to reveal sins to you in prayer and through His Word so that day by day you can become more Christ like as your character becomes more sanctified into the likeness of our Savior by His Holy Spirit.
"The unpardonable sin is to reject Jesus Christ as the son of God and his death on the cross for our sins and the Gospel of Grace.."
That is what we are to accept yes in order to be saved. The unpardonable sin is to consistently REJECT the Holy Spirits pleading on our hearts and minds to accept the Son of God as our Savior. So I'd have to agree more or less.
The unpardonable sin is grieving away the Holy Spirit to where you no longer feel a need to repent of your sins. If you have no conscience due to pushing the Holy Spirit away, you will feel no need to repent. The following text describes this:
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
You need then to tell the scriptures that there won't be a judgment. That's why you can make a statement like that without a single scripture.
The righteousness of Christ will not just cover: it will produce genuine righteousness that is not filthy. It will make people holy. That's why the high priests of the Old Testament had to go in a compartment one day a year in the direct presence of God. One single unholy thought was death! Yet most of them survived.
Amen. We are living in the anti-typical day of atonement where we must search out our hearts and by the Grace of God believe that He gives us power to cleanse us and continue to refine our characters to be more and more like Jesus, that we may be ready. This is what believing and trusting in the savior in part is about.
Jesus will give you righteousness and save you when you live for him we all will go through judgement Jesus is coming to give to everyone according TO WHAT HE HAS DONE. That will not save you but the investigative judgment is true its not in contradiction of scripture.
Which is alone? That can be interpreted in a few ways considering nobody SAW him physically go into heaven. I believe he means that he will return from the same place, which is god's kingdom. So what do you see in the year 1844? Perhaps he did come again in 1844 and he was missed by many just as he was when he came the first time. He wasn't recognized by many for a long time. If he will come with a new name then everyone looking for Jesus Christ WILL or HAVE ALREADY missed him.
This is were you are speaking from ignorance and I say this respectfully. The text clearly indicates that hundreds of people saw Jesus in flesh & blood after His resurrection and 3 of His apostles saw Him go into heaven, not including the angels, Moses & Elijah. Note: text says Jesus will return "in like manner". In the SAME way He went up, with a physical body into the clouds, is the same way He will return, physical body, from the clouds, but this time with ALL His glory & angels.
I would also like to say I have appreciated my discussions with you very much. I hope you don't think I'm being to bold with this new information or that I mean any disrespect. God Bless.
As I have as well. Much of what you've stated I've investigated for myself as I had many similar questions before acknowledging Christianity and Jesus Christ as the absolute truth. There is much scholarly information to investigate origins of our belief systems to derive this truth and my prayer is that more people would ... do the homework. :) God bless you as well friend.
It's very scary to except, or even want to hear new information like this I'm sure. Think of it like an earthquake. You will grab what is closest to you in fear (and rightfully so ;) when perhaps there is something sturdier just beyond your reach. I fell that as long as you have God in your heart, than He has done His job, for ALL religions speak of the same Almighty. To know and love God is #1 is it not? Whether it be from any of His chosen ones, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, Baha'u'llah.
You are free to believe what you like of course. However, please do not assume that all Christians "grasp for fear" as this isn't always the case. I wasn't always a Christian and you would be surprised about my background. I've investigated the major faiths for quite sometime before comfortably, reasonably, and logically believing Christianity is the Truth period. It is based on logic, reason, LOVE & reverence for a Holy Perfect God, not fear (although for some may be a start).
mmmmm... It saddens my heart to hear you say this. You give the One, Omnipotent, Ever Forgiving, All Knowing, All merciful God to your Faith and the ones that came before, but none after. Do you not think the Jewish Faith feels the same way about yours? They do, or they would have excepted Christ and wouldn't be Jewish! Christ was not excepted widespread until MUCH time had passed, so I'm not surprised at your skepticism. However, I plead you not to deny that I believe in the same God as you.
I COMPLETELY understand and sympathize with what you are saying, however there are many biblical tests that we can apply to anyone claiming to be a prophet of God or God Himself and Muhammad, Joseph Smith, Baha'u'llah and MANY others do not pass the biblical criteria. Please watch the other videos on my site for these "tests". If you worship Baha'u'llah then we do not worship the same God. It is that simple. For the details on why, please watch my other videos on how biblical inspiration works.
I worship God and all his Manifestations, the most current being Baha'u'llah. I can't believe you've learned about His life, or we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. Members of the Baha'i Faith come from literally EVERY background possible. I have conversed with many devout Christians, Jews, and Muslims that have become Baha'i, because it is our DUTY to know about previous Faiths as well. How can you effectively teach someone the word of God without knowing it's entirety? Right?! :)
From bahai DOT org - "Throughout history, God has revealed Himself to humanity through a series of divine Messengers, each of Whom has founded a great religion. The Messengers have included Abraham, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammad."
I can tell you with complete confidence this is a false statement. Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha & Muhammad are NOT manifestations of the living God. Neither are the holy prophets. Only Jesus fills this role as representing Godhead bodily.
Now, this really bothers me. Out of respect for MY beliefs, you should have capitalized Baha'i. If you're not going to even lend me common courtesy, I don't see a reason to keep up this discussion. Besides, you're contradicting yourself because Ellen G. White isn't a prophet either, and is in NO way sanctioned under Christ's Word.
I respect your beliefs and in no way am dictating what you believe. Please understand this truth. I am simply sharing my beliefs from my perspective, studies and experience. It isn't about courtesy but conviction of truth. And I don't believe I am contradicting myself on Ellen White, because I do believe she fits the biblical criteria to be a prophet/messenger of God. Please indicate how she does not or is not sanctioned by the Biblical criteria and Christ's own words.
Are you saying she is the the Second Coming? What prophecy is it you believe Ellen White fulfilled? Also, I believe there is a difference between a Prophet and a Visionary; as Joseph Smith was a Visionary, not a two way relationship. I must admit I had not read up on Seventh Day Adventist until I typed in the year 1844, and among the Baha'i videos I expected to find, I saw this video. Does Ellen White share some of the visions that Joseph Smith had, for they both speak of the year 1844.
Ellen White is not the second coming of Jesus. God always sent a prophet/messenger before some major event of His doing. ; Moses;deliverance of Israel, John the Baptist/1st coming of Jesus. I believe the same can be said about Ellen White. The SDA church is a fulfillment of Rev 12:17. The church & E White are fulfillments for the longest time prophecy in the Bible. (2300 days/years)
Yes, this is true. The Bab was the forerunner in the Bahai faith, and said the main purpose of His mission was to prepare the people for the coming of Baha'u'llah. What other prophecies does Ellen White fulfill? Do you have a specific video that talks about this?
Read this: tinyurl(DOT)com/2j2uyd, it is specific with bible prophetic time.
I have two videos on here that speaks about prophecy tinyurl(DOT)com/yrqxk5 & the true church as well tinyurl(DOT)com/yqbjuo (Lots of resources on right hand description pane of this page)
I to see a difference between a prophet of God and a visionary. Joseph Smith was no prophet of God for he used methods clearly condemned by God Himself for his visions and mormons place Smith's words above the bible when in conflict. Ellen White had visions and dreams before the people, not in secret and everything she says is to be tested by the Bible itself, not the other way around.
No, he was a visionary, and he's not responsible for what the Mormons have become. Just as Christ would not have had His word split so many different ways. What are some of the main prophecies made by Ellen White?
She's responsible for bringing about health reformation. The medical/nutritional world has barely within the last few decades proven much of what Ellen White taught on health principles. She's prophesied numerous events during her time. There are many testimonies from doctors of her day who investigated her while actually in vision as well.
There might be some overlap in the visions of E White and Joseph Smith, but that's only because Joseph Smith has stated a lot of truth along with error according to biblical principles. Read the history of both people and you'll the marked difference in the way they lived their lives. There really is no comparison.
The evidence of the Bab and Baha'u'llah being Manifestations of God is insurmountable. William Sears, a Hand of the Cause and journalist, wrote a book called 'A Thief in the Night' which goes into great detail regarding Bible proofs to support these claims. Not to mention the miraculous incidences surrounding the Bab's martyrdom, that was witnessed by thousands, and even recorded in the newspapers. Baha'u'llah was an amazing person from childhood, with knowledge most grown people don't possess.
No offense, but this proves nothing. The Bible says satan can transform himself into an angel of light and that the very elect of God can be deceived unless they immerse themselves in the Word of God & His Son Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit. I will get that book that you suggest and read it so I can more thoroughly address the statements within.
This is simply untrue my friend and further investigation into all the faiths will guide you into this knowledge.
Abraham, Moses & Christ speak of the same God. Muhammed speaks of a different god and so does Baha'u'llah. There are very marked differences about what God requires amongst His followers just in these three religions alone, hence they do not lead to the same place/journey.
There is only ONE GOD, and He is shared by many faiths. You should go to a multi faith conference sometime and you would see just how much these religions, do in fact, agree. I know you said you have researched other faiths, but that makes me further confused as to how you don't see we ALL speak of the same God with the same wondrous attributes. The reason God sends down these messengers one after another is because we can't handle the entire truth at once. The only difference is what's added.
Multi faith conferences while being VERY good for brining about unity among people and eliminating religious bigotry and hatred, only makes it easier for some to compromise on certain elemental truths of their faiths. If you would like a list of things that our God requires of us because He has saved us, be happy to send it to you to compare with what Baha'u'llah says. Then you will see the incompatibility. Only 1 faith system can be %100 truth, they all can't be, which is it?
Hers is what I've seen when examining the major Faiths. ALL have the same spiritual laws (no killing, respect your parents, no premarital sex, etc.), so, same requirements there. The only thing that changes is SOCIAL laws (no pork, multiple wives, etc.) because SOCIETY changes. How are we to progress positively in the world if nobody excepts that things change? Pork is safe now, so Christ says you can eat it. We don't have drastic numbers of men reduced by war, so you need only one wife.
WOW! Pork is safe to eat?!?! Last I checked with doctors and nutritionists it fits the bill of the most unhealthy thing you can put in your body. Ever heard of trichina and a number of other diseases you can get from eating undercooked pork. God made pigs to cleanse the fallen earth, not for man to consume. Even secular atheists who CARE about their health understand this. Marriage has ALWAYS been 1 man and 1 woman in the biblical sense. Polgymany is never right in God's eyes.
When Jesus Christ died, He nailed the Old Law to the cross (Colossians 2:14). Christ made the Law of Moses obsolete and replaced it with the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:13). Paul explained to Christians in Galatia that the Old Law was cast out and replaced by Christ's New Law (Galatians 4:21-31). The regulations about clean and unclean foods were jettisoned, along with rules for animal sacrifice, ritual washings, annual feast days, SABBATH OBSEVRVANCE, and a host of other ceremonial trappings.
*sigh* No offense but have you seen the rest of my videos on here that explain why you and I see differently on the Old & New Covenants and what was included/excluded in them? The new covenant is older than the old covenant having been given to Adam & Eve in the garden *promise of a Messiah*. God's Holy & Perfect Law (10 Commandments including the 7th day sabbath) are at the heart of BOTH covenants.
It is God's law of Love & Liberty (10 commandments) that was written on stone in the old covenant and is written on the heart in the new covenant. Forgiveness and divine strength to obey God is the new covenant. Obeying God in your OWN strength is the Old Covenant. Yes all the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament are obsolete, I agree. The 4rth commandment is NOT one of those however having been made in the garden along with marriage BEFORE fall of man.
Let me ask you this, and let's use common sense and reason. So are you saying when Jesus died all of a sudden we can eat unclean animals and it is healthy for us like cockroaches, rats, lice & pigs.
I agree with you that animal sacrifices are done away with. The 70 week prophecy of Daniel predicted Jesus's 1st coming and why the sacrifices would cease. This is why Jesus is called the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world and why the lamb offering without spot was used in the animal sacrificial system. It POINTED like a shadow to Jesus.
Ritual washing - So are you saying we shouldn't wash our hands anymore? ;) Jesus addressed the Jewish teachers on this point primarily because they were imposing there man made regulations on others as if it had some merit to make a man "spiritually" clean with God. That's all that was. There is no requirement to "ritually wash" however I hope all can and are able to ritually take a bath/shower daily... for hygenic purposes. ;)
Annual feast days - You are correct, these were specifically given to the nation of Israel, happened only once a year and were to commemorate things like their deliverance in Egypt. All of these are done away with, for they also foreshadowed the work of the Savior. They also act as a prophetic timeline for the Christian era as well. We are living in the time of judgment according to revelation, the jewish anti-typical "day of atonement". Laodicia - last church age - judging of the people.
I find it ironic that people would try to do away with the 7th day sabbath, the longest of the 10 commandments, the ONLY day specifically blessed and sanctified by God in the garden BEFORE sin along with "marriage". The Father "rested" as an example to us then and it was Jesus - Son of God's CUSTOM to worship on the Sabbath with everyone. We are to "walk" with the Lord EVERYDAY in spirit & truth, but He calls us to keep HIS day Holy. It was made FOR man to draw us especially closer to our God.
I just don't understand why there are so many secular churches. It seems anyone can pick the parts of one Manifestation they agree with and some from another, discard the rest, call it theirs, and then build a church from it. You either except the whole word of Christ or you don't. Of course some of what Christ said was different then Moses, and so on. What would be the point in Christ returning to tell all of the same Gospel over again? One thing out of context and He
I understand what you mean. Those were my sentiments as well and when I finally investigated the bible and the Christian faith, I was convicted to find a church that obeyed ALL of it by the Grace of God, not just some of it. The 10 commandments are too plain for the Christian. Jesus taught keep it all in spirit and truth. There is letter of the law which we should naturally obey and then there is the spiritual aspects of the law. Much like police officer granting you grace/pardon for speeding.
That's what I believe we have in the Baha'i Faith. A religion that speaks of progressive revelation, of unity in all faiths. That you don't have to give up your beliefs in Moses OR Christ, for they were the Truth. I am interested to find out more about Ellen White, and I encourage your quest for religious knowledge as well. That way we both know where the other is coming from.
God's Holy Law that He spoke with His own mouth and wrote with His finger never changes. If it could, Jesus would not have had to die on the cross for you or I.
Check out bibleuniverse DOT com's free prophecy course and watch the videos. I think you may enjoy them.
so you mean that im not save, in other words my salvation its sure until my name passes in front of jesus in the most holy place ,,what happens with repent, accept jesus and you will be save,,base on what the pastor is saying at this point since my name has come assuming in front of jesus,im not save,,,this does not click,,either im save now or not.
joeplacetas1 1 month ago
@joeplacetas1 If you repent, accept Jesus and put your trust fully in Jesus you will be saved. There is no question about that. But yes Jesus is following the OT sanctuary pattern in type as far as the judgment is concerned. Judgement begins with the house of God to see just who really is "in Christ" and not mearly professing with the lips yet having a heart far from God. God discerns between the wheat and the tares IN the church.
sleanos 1 month ago
@sleanos listen,,you have answer my question,,in fact let tell you that im not just any one from out there,,i'am a soled seventh day Adventist for more than 27 years,,i understand our doctrine 100% how ever we have a situation here with the salvation,,while the sanctuary doctrine make sense,,only when when it comes to the investigative judgment is when i have a problem with it,,the bible clearly states that when we receive Jesus we are saved,saved,saved,cant you get that ?
joeplacetas1 1 month ago
@joeplacetas1 Please be respectful otherwise I will not be answering you questions. I completely understand what you are saying, but YOU know very well that we DO NOT believe in "Once saved, ALWAYS saved". Everyday we must stay connected to Christ, examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith and surrender OUR wills to His. That is the work/part we do in the plan of salvation. God does the rest to save us. God always gives us a choice in following Him or not daily. Understand?
sleanos 1 month ago
@sleanos So long as day by day we surrender ourselves to Him, God can work in us. Do not confuse justification (coming to Christ initially and being saved at the moment) with the work of sanctification where by God is the potter and we are the clay being tried in the fire and refined day by day. (Being cleansed, sanctified and refined/renewed day by day to reflect Christ more fully). So long as we do not choose to remove ourselves from the hands of God and His will we will be saved.
sleanos 1 month ago
@sleanos you tell me in what have i disrespected you,,just because i asked you some thing with out any sugar coding,,cant you take a little pressure and you bend so easy,how can you deal with the trouble times ahead,go ahead,block me or do the same that the so call patriarchs among as are accustom to do.,once again,no one is talking about ,once saved, always saved, that dint even come to my mind,question ? are you save now ?if you can answer this question,than i rest my case,,thank you.
joeplacetas1 1 month ago
@joeplacetas1 It is the tone in which you speak "we are saved,saved,saved,cant you get that ?" As if I didn't understand or couldn't understand. As Christians we are to give offense in nothing. Clearly something is seriously bothering you based on this response.
sleanos 1 month ago
@sleanos its no tone here,,it is strait to point,nothing bothers me,,but like i said if you were capable of answering the question,i was than to rest my case in reference to the subject which it was about the investigative judgment,,you did answer my question,,now you need to look at the investigative judgment and see if you are really save.base on that along,now you say it was my tone,before you said disrespect,,so which one..please, I REST MY CASE,
joeplacetas1 1 month ago
@joeplacetas1 Your response is full of arrogance and assumption. What case could you possibly have made? A better course would have been to see if what you believe about the I.J. and what I believe about the I.J. is in line with what the Bible teaches first on the matter and the Adventist church teaches in it's doctrines secondarily. I will let you know that the manner in which you came at me is enough to push many people away. You may want to reconsider your approach next time.
sleanos 1 month ago
@joeplacetas1 And to answer your question... today as of right now I believe I have the assurance of eternal life in Christ. I have no unconfessed or unforsaken sins. (That does not mean that I am sinless of course). Tomorrow is another story though. And God's Grace is sufficient for the day. So long as I believe and rely on Him day by day I believe I will be saved in His kingdom when He comes. But I do not presume to know that 100%. God will ultimately decide. But I have peace in Him now.
sleanos 1 month ago
lol this guy is funny, even tho i dont share hardly any of these beliefs, being agnostic n all :/
chrisbary 1 month ago
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
the sacrificial phase of Jesus has taken place back then at his asention. also
for our hearts to be sprinkled from an evil contience could not have taken place if SDA 1844 is true jesus never entered the holiest. heart represents the ark which contains the commandments. hence no new covenent by the SDA. SDA fools
ninnzbinnz 8 months ago
@ninnzbinnz You don't know your bible very well. The sanctuary was given as an example by God to represent the work of Christ. The high priest back then entered into the Holy of Holies once to consecrate it with the blood of animal BEFORE dealing with the daily sacrifices, likewise, when Jesus ascended He consecrated the Holy of Holies once with His own blood, and then intercedes daily for us as well. Study it out as God says His way is in the sanctuary as an example to the work of Christ.
sleanos 8 months ago
@sleanos he holds back the wrath no doubt. but remember the high preist cleansed the holy of holies at the end of the year to cleanse the temple from the dirt built up the year prior. also the sprinkling of the OT ark of covenent aka the NT heart of the human temple. I will write my laws into flesh not tables of stone. initiation of NT with humanity. HEb says now once has he offered up the sacrifice. no a partial sacrifice but complete. SDA cleansing of the sanctuary in 1844 lie. read and learn
ninnzbinnz 8 months ago
@ninnzbinnz
(Part A-1)
If you say 1844 is a lie then you are accusing Jesus of being a deluded false prophet.
In Matthew 24:15, where He talks of the abomination that causes desolation, He PRIMARILY refers to the transgression of desolation in Daniel 8:13.
That is the 1st mention of the abomination that causes desolation by the prophet Daniel. Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11 are all refering to the same abomination in Daniel 8:13.
PreparetomeetthyGod 7 months ago
@ninnzbinnz
(Part A-2)
This means that the little horn in Daniel 8:9 cannot be the Greek Antiochus Epiphanes but that it is Roman, pagan/papal.
This also means that we are left with no option but to do the calculation of Daniel 8:14 of the 2,300 days by using the start date in Daniel 9:25 as the events of Daniel 8:13 are AFTER A.D. 31& doing the calculations that way will reflect that truth, hence 1844.
1844 is an inescapable fact my dearly beloved.
Heaven's blessings
PreparetomeetthyGod 7 months ago
Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
the 1st tabernacle phase is completed (aka "not yet standing") in full and finished when christ became our high priest at his resurrection. not 1844
ninnzbinnz 8 months ago
@ninnzbinnz Sorry friend. I don't agree with your interpretation of things here. Study out the 70 week prophecy, the 1260-1290 year prophecy and the 2300 year prophecy that ties them all together and compare against the IT sanctuary services. You are making the scriptures say more than they do. Jesus is in the Holy compartment serving as our high priest daily bringing our petitions mixed with His righteousness before the throne of God according to scripture and the OT sanctuary pattern.
sleanos 8 months ago
@ninnzbinnz the context of tt chapter is that the ministration into the heavenly sanctuary could not have happened while the earthly sanctuary was still there. the writer is not talking about which apartment christ went in after ascension. Christ entered the sanctuary after His ascension but into the second apartment in 1844 to begin preadvent judgement read Daniel 7vs9-10
bsibanda 5 months ago
@sleanos You wrote: "when Jesus ascended He consecrated the Holy of Holies once with His own blood, and then intercedes daily for us as well."
At the moment is Jesus still in the most holy place in the heavenly sanctuary or is He now outside in the holy place & in the courtyard up there?
choppingwater 2 months ago
@choppingwater According to the pattern given us of the OT sanctuary and the words of Christ Himself, Jesus is "seated at the right hand of the Father" so He is ministering in the Most Holy Place. He is not in the courtyard (symbolized by His death on the cross) nor is He in the "holy place" (2nd compartment), not to be confused with calling the temple itself the "holy place".
sleanos 2 months ago
@choppingwater Keep in mind, the OT sanctuary is just a model and symbolizes the work of the Messiah. Noone's killing animals up there and I'm sure the actual temple of God in heaven (not to be confused with our bodies which are also the temple of God) is much more grandiose than anything we can possibly imagine. I say this as a matter of faith/trust in God based on prayerfully studying scripture.
sleanos 2 months ago
@sleanos That makes sense. So Yeshua/Jesus is the High priest interceding for us daily in heaven.
paulgem123 1 month ago
@paulgem123 Yes
sleanos 1 month ago
@ninnzbinnz ... No New Covenant for SDA? Are you even aware what the New Covenant is? "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people." (Hebrews 8:10) On the contrary - if you have no law (or think them void) you have no New Covenant. Typical ... all justification with no sanctification. Cheap, easy grace.
CreepyRacers 7 months ago
1844 big year, Marx's first writings, first telegram sent invented by morse from London to New York, Joseph Smith Martyred and the first safe invented. It also marks the beginning of the exponential spurt growth of modern technology. The Bab of Persia proclaimed that He was the promised Qaim meaning 'the One who will make manifest' a Messenger of God called Baha'u'llah meaning 'The Glory of God' or 'Glory of the Father' hold here it comes..... in 1844. The Bab is still proclaiming on Mt Carmel
stevenmasua 8 months ago
To answer the speaker: It is because we have read Hebrews for ourselves that we reject the Investigative Judgement. It is clear to all who study that book from beginning to end that Christ entered the most Holy place after His work at Calvary.
The only reason other-wise Biblical people still try to rationalize this fallacy is that if it is you can't very well hold Ellen White as the "infallible interpreter of Scripture."
salmagnum 10 months ago 2
@salmagnum You've been reading way to many critics against the faith. You sound like Walter Martin on the sda debates online. sillliness. And Ellen White is not the infallible interpreter of Scripture. Her writings are simply in harmony WITH scripture. Scripture tests ALL writings.
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos
You know Sleanos I have realised that at least 90% of protestant Christianity teaches 1844! Have you seen that? It is unavoidable in the SEVEN CHURCHES of Rev 2/3 & they teach that these CHurches are prophetic & that the Roman catholic church is the Jezebel church of Thytira.
So these people are giving us a hard time about 1844 when majority of their churches actually teach it. They just fail to see it in Dan 8 because they do not want to hear a thing about JUDGEMENT.
PreparetomeetthyGod 9 months ago
@PreparetomeetthyGod Very interesting!
sleanos 9 months ago
@salmagnum
If Christ entered the most Holy place after His work at Calvary, then does that mean He has finished ALL His work? If so, what is He doing now? Why has He not come back? Why are we still here & why are we still sinning if we are FULLY ATONED FOR & are AT ONE with God???
PreparetomeetthyGod 10 months ago
(Part A-2)
Notice part of the question in Dan 8:13 is,
" How long will it take for the VISION to be fulfilled. Its THE WHOLE VISION in view in the 2,300 days in Dan 8:14
PreparetomeetthyGod 11 months ago
Part A-1)
It is really a mystery as to how people are failing to see IJ in Dan 8 when its so clear & is a REPETITION of Dan 7 where IJ is right there in Dan 7:10.
I mean the bottom line is that the time prophecy of the 2,300 days is NOWHERE to be found in the INTERPRETATION, hence the angel coming back to EXPLAIN IT in Dan 9.
Also, the 2,300 days INCLUDE THE ENTIRE VISION of Dan 8, not just the trampling of the Temple. It includes the Persian empire building the 2nd Temple.
PreparetomeetthyGod 11 months ago
Hence, though the little horn of Daniel 7 is specifically the 5th kingdom or the Papacy, yet the little horn of Daniel 8 primarily represents the Pagan Roman Empire and then this career is repeated by the Roman Church and will be repeated by the Protestant Churches. All three phases of the 4th beast then is covered by this little horn of Daniel 8.
MrDemetriusleach 1 year ago
You mentioned that the little horn of Daniel 8 represents the fifth kingdom. It is true that this is so in a secondary way. However, the little horn of Daniel 8 must be parallel to the 4th dreadful beast of Daniel 7 and also the legs of iron in Daniel 2.
MrDemetriusleach 1 year ago
Answer me this: If 1844 was the beginning of the investigative judgement, how much time is left? And what historical event happened to prove 1844?
LambAndTheDragon 1 year ago
@LambAndTheDragon no one knows exactly how much time is left. We just know most of the signs the Lord has given have come to pass already. There was a great spiritual awakening to the truths of the Bible around the world. It is referred to as the second great awakening by most Christian circles/historians.
sleanos 1 year ago
@BlueCatsRock
You need to stop running others down! All you do is condemn. I don't see you fight the good fight. No one in their right mind would like to be impolite but it does get difficult. One can judge you as well & say you are not helping others come to truth. You told Kindomentality that Christians from all denominations will be saved.
Well one can say you are a false prophet who wants an easy life & chooses to prophesy smooth things to avoid friction.. What you told him is WRONG!
PreparetomeetthyGod 1 year ago
@BlueCatsRock I don't always, but I try and it is only by the Grace of God. Thank you!
sleanos 1 year ago
@sleanos
May God bless you for your honesty & your refusal to share BlueCatsRock's condemnation of other people. I like that you told him/her that you don't always handle controversial topics as well as she/he claims you do.
Its not an easy job to do & those like BlueCats who critisize others only afford to do so because they are seating on the fence & are not getting involved.
Its all too easy to critisize.. She/he made the same comment on another video condemning others. NOT GOOD!
PreparetomeetthyGod 1 year ago
To all having IJ related difficulty; please obtain "Sanctuary Path To The throne" and study. Easy? No, it requires work. Re Dan. 8:14 "sanctuary will be cleansed"; how about; "restored to it's rightful place" does that help. In Rev. 11 "rise and measure the temple (sanctuary)", here again, study the sanctuary. The Millerites neglected this work. Consequently, they had to endure ridicule.
God bless all.
GS
gsprenkle 1 year ago
Why is the word of God made to sound so confusing? Why do we have to believe in the investigative judgement? Why is Ellen G. White the only prophet of the SDA church? Why do SDA's have to validate her teachings? Would I be considered a christian if I do not believe all of what she is saying? Would I think the same way if I read the bible without a prophet or prophetess to guide me? Forgive me for not understanding I don't mean any harm.
ncdynasty 1 year ago
@ncdynasty "Why is the word of God made to sound so confusing? "
What are you confused about?
sleanos 1 year ago
@ncdynasty "Why do we have to believe in the investigative judgement? "
Because it is biblical.
sleanos 1 year ago
@ncdynasty "Why is Ellen G. White the only prophet of the SDA church? Why do SDA's have to validate her teachings?"
God had sent others, but at Ellen White's time she was the only one who did what the Lord told her to do in regards to delivering His messages to the people through the prophetic gift. SDA's and all Christians should validate her message through the Word of God because Jesus said many false prophets would come. There would be true ones though as well. Word of God tests all.
sleanos 1 year ago
@ncdynasty "Would I be considered a christian if I do not believe all of what she is saying?"
Not sure, all depends on what you are doing. Jesus said if you love Him you'll obey Him and bear fruit (in your character, life, work, witness, etc). Do you have a loving relationship with God? Are you walking in all the light you know and understand?
sleanos 1 year ago
@ncdynasty "Would I think the same way if I read the bible without a prophet or prophetess to guide me?"
You'll have to answer that one for yourself. I can safely say that I do think the same way having read the Bible for myself before ever investigating the writings of Ellen White.
sleanos 1 year ago
@sleanos I have read the bible before investigating the writings of Ellen White. I don't think exactly the same way. But, I would think the same as her if I relied on her to interpret the bible.
ncdynasty 1 year ago
@ncdynasty So you don't believe that our salvation comes from Jesus Christ alone as a free gift of love? You don't believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God able to reach the hearts and minds of humanity. You don't believe the 10 commandments at a minimum are an expression of the type of God of Love we serve and that He has given us power through the indwelling 3rd person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit to obey all His commandments and precepts?
sleanos 1 year ago
@sleanos So, you basically telling me that if I don't believe EVERYTHING she has written I am denying the essentials of the word of God? Just remember the enemy will try to impart a small lie in truth. A little leaven leave leaveneth the whole lump.
God Bless
ncdynasty 1 year ago
@ncdynasty She? I just quoted you what the Bible teaches and asked you a simple question. What I just stated, many denominations believe as well even if they argue the subtler points. What part of what I just stated do you not agree with? Let's not beat around the bush shall we.
sleanos 1 year ago
@sleanos I know that we have to live a Holy lifestyle, The word of God states that. But, I don't Believe in what she writes about 1844 and the Investigative Judgement. There is nothing that could be said that would cause me to believe in 1844 Jesus went into the Holy of Holies, etc. Forgive me for taking up your time-God Bless.
ncdynasty 1 year ago
@ncdynasty All I can tell you is to study the Old Testament sanctuary service (along with the prophecies of Daniel). It serves as a model to illustrate the work of the Messiah. The Old Testament ceremonial sabbaths prophetically illustrate events in the work of the messiah as well. It all points to Jesus and the work He would, has and will do until all is complete and sin, death, the devil and the wicked are no more. God bless.
sleanos 1 year ago
@ncd
Let me just say one thing. I have studied the IJ now for about 13 yrs. I also learned some amazing things. EGW never came up with the Investigative Judgment. Several pioneers from various denominational backgrounds did--Baptist, Congregationalist, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc. came to this conclusion based on scripture, ALL on their own. At first EGW was confused, so she prayed to God to help her understand it. Later she was given a vision confirming what the pioneers discovered was true.
Lysimachus78 1 year ago
@ncdynasty
(cont.) I would recommend a book to you. Oh please take the time to read this book! Please do! Do not procrastinate, as you will be amazed after you read it! Please purchase the book "The Sanctuary, 1844 And The Pioneers" by Paul A. Gordon. You can get it for $4.00 at the AdventistBookCenter . com (just hit search). This book will set the record straight about the Investigative Pre-Advent Judgment! Do yourself a favor, and read it! It's cheap! God bless you bro!
Lysimachus78 1 year ago
@ncdynasty "Forgive me for not understanding I don't mean any harm."
Sounds like you're trying to plant the seeds of doubt more than being truly inquisitive...but we'll give you the benefit of the doubt. God bless.
sleanos 1 year ago
Is there an investigative Judgment? YES! Is the daily referring to the Sacrifice of Christ? NO! the Pioneers correctly understood the daily as referring to Paganism as the hebrew word is used as a noun here and no where else in scripture. Early Writings page 74 makes it clear that the correct understanding of the daily was held by the original pioneers and that it should be understood as Paganism which is taken away by Papalism. 2 thes 2:7-8 lets us know that the apostles understood this!
foolish237 2 years ago
@foolish237
I agree! My dad read the book "The Daily" by Merrian Berry, and that's what convinced him. Data is just too sound. Daily, or "Continuum" of the Office of Paganism was taken away and usurped by Papal authority.
Lysimachus78 2 years ago
WHAT!!?? Brother read again.
Read Daniel 9:26, 27
naciamaJYute 1 year ago
2 Thessalonians 2:6
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
foolish237 1 year ago
I wonder if this man has read Hebrews 9 or John 5:24. Yes, those who are saved will be judged but this judgment will not determine our eternal destiny because for those who are saved there will be no condemnation.
99percentatheist 2 years ago
Yes this man knows all about Hebrews 9 & John 5:24. One thing you must understand about the judging of the saints that is going on right now. It is not for God's benefit (He knows all things) but for the rest of His created beings that they may know & understand His ways. IF those who call themselves Christians have put their trust in Jesus making Him Lord & Savior of their lives, the judgment will show this & then their is NO condemnation to those who believe.
sleanos 2 years ago
Then how does he reconcile the Investigative Judgment with the passages just cited? John 5:24 states that we have eternal life now and that we will not be condemned. Hebrews 9 refutes the notion of any Investigative judgment going on presently.
99percentatheist 2 years ago 2
Read another translation (Ex: Amplified Bible) How do you interpret was is written below?
John 5:24I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, the person whose ears are open to My words [who listens to My message] and believes and trusts in and clings to and relies on Him Who sent Me has (possesses now) eternal life. And he does not come into judgment [does not incur sentence of judgment, will not come under condemnation], but he has already passed over out of death into life.
sleanos 2 years ago
The word "believes" comes from the Greek word "pestuo" which literally translated into English is "to trust" The AV translates this single word into 9 words, " believes and trusts in and clings to and relies..." A bit excessive I believe. But it's clear as water. He who believes has eternal life NOW. He will NOT be JUDGED. This leaves no room for any investigative judgment cause the verdict is already in, at the moment of faith: has eternal life...has passed from death to life...no judgment!
99percentatheist 2 years ago 4
Yes, agreed. Justification, when we come to Christ we have the PROMISE of eternal life at that very moment. But you are mistaken about the investigative judgment. Read the parable of the Unforgiving Slave in Matthew 18:23-35. Pay attention to the last line.
Also read: 1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
sleanos 2 years ago
@99percentatheist - Clearly you are ignoring - "But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Rom. 14:10, NKJV."
Only those found to have been living in Christ will be found not guilty (No condemnation for those in Christ Jesus). I pray you allow God's spirit & word to live in your heart & mind making Jesus truly your Lord of your life and not just Savior. God bless
sleanos 2 years ago
@sleanos
Are you familiar with the belief that there will be two judgments?
MyHopeisJesusChrist 1 year ago
@MyHopeisJesusChrist yes. The investigative judgment now that ends just prior to the second coming of Christ. Then the executive judgment by fire after the heavenly city returns down to earth where the wicked and eventually destroyed forever.
sleanos 1 year ago
Where exactly in Hebrews 9 does it refute the investigative judgment? Please be specific in your interpretation of scripture and not vague. Thanks
sleanos 2 years ago
This passages clearly teach that Christ atoned for our sins at the time of his assention not in 1844. Heb. 6:19,20 Heb. 8:1,2 Heb. 9:23-26. We don't have to wait for his return for the work to be completed: Heb. 10:10-14,18-22, Colossians 2:13, We have eternal life now I john 5;13. These are just some of many many passages that contradict the investigative judgment doctrine.
99percentatheist 2 years ago 13
What you've presented is a straw man argument against what Adventist believe sir. Christ DID completely atone (die) for our sins on the cross. That part of the plan of salvation IS complete. But the bible also teaches that He CONTINUES to intercede and atone for us. The conflict between Satan & Christ is not completely over as yet and will not be until the 2nd coming, at which point Satan will be made to pay for the incursion he made with sin on heaven & earth.
sleanos 2 years ago
I don't believe you fully understand nor have studied out the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment from an Adventist perspective fully to sit here and try to say the Bible refutes it. Especially when scripture is full of stories of the Lord and angels visiting man to "investigate" before pronoucning judgment. Remember the story of Sodom & Gmorrah with the angels and Angel of the Lord visiting Abraham for example.
sleanos 2 years ago
@99percentatheist,
Sleanos is right. As long as Christ is our High Priest, he is "atoning" for us. The role of a High Priest is to "atone", or "make intercession". The atonement of sacrifice was complete, but that's only part of the grand "atonement". As long as sin exists, there must be an intercessor. Second Coming of Christ = End of Atonement. As soon as Christ steps out of the Most Holy Place, Probation for all humanity has closed.
Lysimachus78 2 years ago
@99percentatheist,
Hebrews 10:26 says: "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." This proves that intercession for these sins is currently being made. If atonement was over, the world would be over. Nobody could repent. As long as "repentance" exist, "atonement" must exist. You can't say 'atonement is complete", but yet still be able to repent. That's impossible.
Lysimachus78 2 years ago
@99percentatheist: "This passages clearly teach that Christ atoned for our sins at the time of his assention not in 1844."
SDA's do not teach that Christ atoned for sin in 1844. He paid the eternal price for in at the Cross.
dconklin58 1 year ago
may be you do belong to that cover my friend BE PROUD OF IT. GOD BLESS YOU DOUG KEEP IT UP
polecobre 2 years ago
I'm forgiven and assured of it. I am also RESPONSIBLE to search my heart; I am instructed to EXAMINE myself; I am admonished to WORK OUT my salvation. I am saved on His merit and then He expects me to live a life that is holy which is the fruit of His work. The fig tree was destroyed because it bared no figs. The proof, the evidence, the testimony of the reality of my salvation is in my lifestyle. It amazes me that people have trouble with that.
jimiduzit 2 years ago
I think no need for debate....just let the holy spirit guide each one of us and ask for help.god didnt want us to battle in anyway but to seek the truth, for the truth is just a reading away...read your bible and find out for yourself...I admire Mr. Dough, he is indeed a servant of God..
caymanian008 2 years ago
i wanted to get some insight but mr. bachelor you failed. your opening arguments was not biblical and seemed as if you were trying to make sense of it for yourself.
kvtlcrew 2 years ago
What a judgmental comment and condemning spirit. Just an fyi:
1) This presentation was an expository talk for a Sabbath school class based on ONE of 13 lessons for an entire Quarter on the subject of the sanctuary and 1844.
2) Want an in depth explanation? Study you Bible.
3) Care for an Adventist complete scriptural view point? Grab any of the often free materials online from Adventist websites on the matter. Sabbath School for example.
sleanos 2 years ago
Just FYI: A great book about 1844 is called, "1844 made Simple" by Clifford Goldstein. The basis of 1844/Judgment is not in Dan 8:14 but also in several verses in Dan. 7:8-14, vs.21-22, and 25-27. Heres the progression 1. AntiChrist power. 2. Judgment scene 3. 2nd coming. Judgment takes place not at A.D. 31 as many proposed but before Christ coming. For further evidence check out these verses written many years after 31 A.D. Acts 17:31;24:25; Rom. 2:16;14:10-12;Heb 10:30.
Jesus2ndcoming 2 years ago
I am a Seventh-day Adventist myself. For 22 years I went to Sunday Presbyterian Church. No one in my family is Adventist but myself. I accept a lot of Adventist doctrine but I just cant seem to swallow IJ and 1844. Lately I consider myself just a Sabbatarian Christian who believes in the Word of GOD that so happens to go to a Seventh-day Adventist Church. thank you.
kvtlcrew 2 years ago 9
We'll keep you in prayer. Study study study His Word. Ask for wisdom from God. :) God Bless.
sleanos 2 years ago
kvtlcrew,
I want to encourage you to not give up studying the IJ doctrine. Being raised SDA, the first 20 years of my life, I tried to understand it, and could not. However, after deep eschatological study over the last 10 years, everything opened up to me in one grand panoramic view! Words can't describe just how amazing this doctrine is and what its moral purpose for us. To begin with, it is very easy to prove that the 2300 yrs(8:14) start in the very same year as the 70 weeks of Dan 9:24.
Lysimachus78 2 years ago
@kvtlcrew
Hi, I invite you to visit the website that my husband and I recently launched, "Sabbatismos: Finding Our Rest in Christ." I actually just wrote a paper which I posted on our site and I think you may find it helpful. (Scroll to the very bottom of the homepage and click on the picture of the pink lady slipper flowers).
Blessings in Christ,
Sabbatiismos (Heb. 4:9)
Sabbatismos49 1 year ago
I am looking forward for Dr. Desmond Ford and Doug Batchelor to debate on this doctrine.
condradodomingo 3 years ago
Is this going to take place anytime soon? I feel bad for Dr. Ford.
AdventistDefense 3 years ago
Why would you feel bad for Dr. Ford if he is in error? Error must be rebuked. EGW even said that those who reject the Investigative Judgment, the light goes out behind them and the path becomes darkness. I'm not sure why you would feel "bad" about someone losing a battle if they are on the wrong side.
Lysimachus78 2 years ago
Because he's ganna further expose himself as a Jesuit and end up lost if he pursists in his errors. There is nothing wrong with feeling bad for those who will be lost if they dont repent.
AdventistDefense 2 years ago
I agree with you. I thought I should remind you that our "good friend" contradomingo is not for Doug Batchelor like I assumed, or perhaps you assumed as well. I learned in an email very quickly that he as well is vehemently against the 1844 Investigative Judgment. =/ His arguments against it come from Calvinism, that we've all been "predestined". Unfortunately it is impossible to see the Investigative Judgment when you're filled with the error of Predestination in your mind.
Lysimachus78 2 years ago
Hey thanks for this video, I am using it in an attempt to focus some of the best videos on the early Adventist church posted on youtube.
AnixSG 3 years ago
??????????????????
condradodomingo 3 years ago
I can feel His face looking down upon me at all times. He guides me and protects me. I give all praise and worship to my Savior.
PrayerisLoveinaction 3 years ago
Thanks. Read National Sunday Law by A.Jan Marcussen soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
hdiylove7 3 years ago
5. The Jews in AD70
WE can never be perfect on this earth in our human form but it is because of the righteousness of Christ and the example he set for us to follow, that makes us AIM to be perfect.
Be perfect as your Father in HEAVEN in perfect. We are on Earth. The best thing we can do is AIM to be perfect. Christ will make up the rest. He that endures and overcomes temptation will receive a crown of life. God bless you all to the TRUTH
Jondadon2006 3 years ago 3
Amen brother!
sleanos 3 years ago
The investigative judgment is all over the Bible. How can people be so BLIND.
1. Daniel and the vision of the writing on the Wall.
2. The wicked people in Noah's ark
3. The JEWS in Dan 9:24-27
4. Sodom and Gomorrah
5.
Jondadon2006 3 years ago
The problem I have with all this "entering the most holy in 1844" is that did not Jesus ascend to his Father at the resurecction? Is not the Father represented by the most holy place? If so, When Jesus ascended to heaven from earth, he must have not seen His Father until 1844. And pardon me, but I find that crazy, I would think he'd see his Father immediately upon entering heaven. The Sanctuary system has some holes in it. Watch Desmond Fords videos, his questions are very valid.
guitardds 3 years ago
"Did Jesus ascend to to His Father at the resurrection?" - No not immediately. Jesus speaking to Mary after the resurrection: Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
sleanos 3 years ago
It is only your interpretation of 1844 that makes very little sense. You'll need to study your bible more carefully along with the Old Testament sanctuary and the book of Hebrews. It is Desmond Fords videos that have holes in them.
sleanos 3 years ago
Its not a matter of when Jesus "saw" the father sir, its a matter of when he entered into the next phase of his heavenly minuistry. In the type the high priest ministered FIRST in the holy place. If Jesus was to be faithful to the type, which ic Gods very word, he must also "minister" in the holy place, and THEN the most holy place. Yea, its really that simple.
AdventistDefense 3 years ago
no DOUG, the problem people have with the investigative judgment is that it teaches we must stand in judgment without Jesus Christ - my Bible says He will never leave me nor forsake me. My perfect and good deeds are still filthy rages that don't merit me salvation - only the righteousness of Christ.
living212 3 years ago 2
Then you're problem is NOT with Seventh-day Adventist teachings on the Invetigative judgement, but with some other groups version of it. Bible clearly teaches that EVERYONE (saints and wicked) will stand before God on that day. ONLY those who truly abide in Christ will not be condemned (no verdict of guilty as Jesus's righteousness is accredited to us). Everyone else will stand WITHOUT the blood of the Lamb on there behalf and be punished according to their works.
sleanos 3 years ago
i agree with what you are telling me about what the BIBLE teaches... however, many Adventists have taught, including EGW, that the believers must stand before God in judgment (not "on that day" like you say but...) on whichever day their judgment comes up - hence the investigative judgment. And if they don't have a perfect character and have not confessed and repented of all sin, including motives and their influence on others after they are dead... then they are lost - going to hell.
living212 3 years ago
"On that day" IS judgment day. It is not subjective to when a person passes, but will occur after the second coming of Christ for ALL. There is too much evidence from the apostles that speak of judgment day in the future tense, a judgment day (one day) for ALL. The bible calls us all to be perfect, to continue to strive in the faith, progress heavenly upward in heart and character by the Grace of God. To NOT do this is to go the opposite way. Grow in Grace friend. THAT is the message.
sleanos 3 years ago
To know to do good and yet NOT do it, it is sin. Sin leads to death. (I know you don't need the scripture reference for these two powerfully paraphrased scriptures.)
sleanos 3 years ago
Knowing sin and still doing it regardless just for the fun of it or to be rebelious is not just a sin its the unpardonable sin. A sin against the holy ghost and our conscience.
1cross3nails4gvn 3 years ago
Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
(Plus whatever else God commands, once we read and understand)
Committing sin in and of itself is NOT the unpardonable sin (they all can be forgiven). Continuously pushing aside (grieving) the Holy Spirit's calling to you & your conscience not to commit wrongs, is the unpardonable sin.
sleanos 3 years ago
I believe that the term "unpardonable sin" is actually a little misleading. What you said is essentially correct, that if we constantly ignore the Holy Spirit's call to stop sinning that we will lose sight and communion with God. But even the worst sinner could sincerely repent, even after a lifetime of committing wrongs in the eyes of God. I know what you mean, I'm just squeamish with that particular saying. Keep up the good work and don't let folks like Bingolly1 get you down.
Scarface1034 3 years ago
I agree, the worst of us can be saved by God's grace, however, and I'm not saying I know the threshold, a person can come to a point in their life where it's mighty dangerous to reject God's saving Grace and be lost. Noah & the Flood, Sodom & Gmorrah for example. Today is the day of salvation. I pray everyone makes that choice now.
sleanos 3 years ago
The only sin God cannot forgive is the one we do not repent of and ask for forgiveness.
sleanos 3 years ago
Ah-ha! Now that's clarity. I don't it could be said any better. What's your favorite verse?
Scarface1034 3 years ago
The only sin God cannot forgive is the one we do not repent of and ask for forgiveness. What is that about? So if I forget to repent a sin I have forgotten about in the past I am doomed to hell.
The unpardonable sin is to reject Jesus Christ as the son of God and his death on the cross for our sins and the Gospel of Grace..
sabbear 2 years ago
"So if I forget to repent a sin I have forgotten about in the past I am doomed to hell."
Not necessarily. God only holds you accountable for what you know. And you should be ASKING God to reveal sins to you in prayer and through His Word so that day by day you can become more Christ like as your character becomes more sanctified into the likeness of our Savior by His Holy Spirit.
sleanos 2 years ago
"The unpardonable sin is to reject Jesus Christ as the son of God and his death on the cross for our sins and the Gospel of Grace.."
That is what we are to accept yes in order to be saved. The unpardonable sin is to consistently REJECT the Holy Spirits pleading on our hearts and minds to accept the Son of God as our Savior. So I'd have to agree more or less.
sleanos 2 years ago
The unpardonable sin is grieving away the Holy Spirit to where you no longer feel a need to repent of your sins. If you have no conscience due to pushing the Holy Spirit away, you will feel no need to repent. The following text describes this:
Luke 12:10
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
broadaorb 2 years ago
agreed
sleanos 2 years ago
You need then to tell the scriptures that there won't be a judgment. That's why you can make a statement like that without a single scripture.
The righteousness of Christ will not just cover: it will produce genuine righteousness that is not filthy. It will make people holy. That's why the high priests of the Old Testament had to go in a compartment one day a year in the direct presence of God. One single unholy thought was death! Yet most of them survived.
tmac1238 3 years ago
Amen. We are living in the anti-typical day of atonement where we must search out our hearts and by the Grace of God believe that He gives us power to cleanse us and continue to refine our characters to be more and more like Jesus, that we may be ready. This is what believing and trusting in the savior in part is about.
sleanos 3 years ago
Jesus will give you righteousness and save you when you live for him we all will go through judgement Jesus is coming to give to everyone according TO WHAT HE HAS DONE. That will not save you but the investigative judgment is true its not in contradiction of scripture.
1cross3nails4gvn 3 years ago 2
Amen.
sleanos 3 years ago
Yes agree pastor all christians have false views and false prospectives of seventh day adventists.
1cross3nails4gvn 3 years ago 2
Visit ww-w(DOT)adventistdefenseleague(DOT)co-m for more information on Ellen White, the Adventist Church and its doctrines. Thanks for the video!
AdventistDefense 3 years ago
Which is alone? That can be interpreted in a few ways considering nobody SAW him physically go into heaven. I believe he means that he will return from the same place, which is god's kingdom. So what do you see in the year 1844? Perhaps he did come again in 1844 and he was missed by many just as he was when he came the first time. He wasn't recognized by many for a long time. If he will come with a new name then everyone looking for Jesus Christ WILL or HAVE ALREADY missed him.
astrabella 3 years ago
This is were you are speaking from ignorance and I say this respectfully. The text clearly indicates that hundreds of people saw Jesus in flesh & blood after His resurrection and 3 of His apostles saw Him go into heaven, not including the angels, Moses & Elijah. Note: text says Jesus will return "in like manner". In the SAME way He went up, with a physical body into the clouds, is the same way He will return, physical body, from the clouds, but this time with ALL His glory & angels.
sleanos 3 years ago
I would also like to say I have appreciated my discussions with you very much. I hope you don't think I'm being to bold with this new information or that I mean any disrespect. God Bless.
astrabella 3 years ago
As I have as well. Much of what you've stated I've investigated for myself as I had many similar questions before acknowledging Christianity and Jesus Christ as the absolute truth. There is much scholarly information to investigate origins of our belief systems to derive this truth and my prayer is that more people would ... do the homework. :) God bless you as well friend.
sleanos 3 years ago
It's very scary to except, or even want to hear new information like this I'm sure. Think of it like an earthquake. You will grab what is closest to you in fear (and rightfully so ;) when perhaps there is something sturdier just beyond your reach. I fell that as long as you have God in your heart, than He has done His job, for ALL religions speak of the same Almighty. To know and love God is #1 is it not? Whether it be from any of His chosen ones, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, Baha'u'llah.
astrabella 3 years ago
You are free to believe what you like of course. However, please do not assume that all Christians "grasp for fear" as this isn't always the case. I wasn't always a Christian and you would be surprised about my background. I've investigated the major faiths for quite sometime before comfortably, reasonably, and logically believing Christianity is the Truth period. It is based on logic, reason, LOVE & reverence for a Holy Perfect God, not fear (although for some may be a start).
sleanos 3 years ago
mmmmm... It saddens my heart to hear you say this. You give the One, Omnipotent, Ever Forgiving, All Knowing, All merciful God to your Faith and the ones that came before, but none after. Do you not think the Jewish Faith feels the same way about yours? They do, or they would have excepted Christ and wouldn't be Jewish! Christ was not excepted widespread until MUCH time had passed, so I'm not surprised at your skepticism. However, I plead you not to deny that I believe in the same God as you.
astrabella 3 years ago
I COMPLETELY understand and sympathize with what you are saying, however there are many biblical tests that we can apply to anyone claiming to be a prophet of God or God Himself and Muhammad, Joseph Smith, Baha'u'llah and MANY others do not pass the biblical criteria. Please watch the other videos on my site for these "tests". If you worship Baha'u'llah then we do not worship the same God. It is that simple. For the details on why, please watch my other videos on how biblical inspiration works.
sleanos 3 years ago
I worship God and all his Manifestations, the most current being Baha'u'llah. I can't believe you've learned about His life, or we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. Members of the Baha'i Faith come from literally EVERY background possible. I have conversed with many devout Christians, Jews, and Muslims that have become Baha'i, because it is our DUTY to know about previous Faiths as well. How can you effectively teach someone the word of God without knowing it's entirety? Right?! :)
astrabella 3 years ago
From bahai DOT org - "Throughout history, God has revealed Himself to humanity through a series of divine Messengers, each of Whom has founded a great religion. The Messengers have included Abraham, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammad."
I can tell you with complete confidence this is a false statement. Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha & Muhammad are NOT manifestations of the living God. Neither are the holy prophets. Only Jesus fills this role as representing Godhead bodily.
sleanos 3 years ago
Now, this really bothers me. Out of respect for MY beliefs, you should have capitalized Baha'i. If you're not going to even lend me common courtesy, I don't see a reason to keep up this discussion. Besides, you're contradicting yourself because Ellen G. White isn't a prophet either, and is in NO way sanctioned under Christ's Word.
astrabella 3 years ago
I respect your beliefs and in no way am dictating what you believe. Please understand this truth. I am simply sharing my beliefs from my perspective, studies and experience. It isn't about courtesy but conviction of truth. And I don't believe I am contradicting myself on Ellen White, because I do believe she fits the biblical criteria to be a prophet/messenger of God. Please indicate how she does not or is not sanctioned by the Biblical criteria and Christ's own words.
sleanos 3 years ago
Are you saying she is the the Second Coming? What prophecy is it you believe Ellen White fulfilled? Also, I believe there is a difference between a Prophet and a Visionary; as Joseph Smith was a Visionary, not a two way relationship. I must admit I had not read up on Seventh Day Adventist until I typed in the year 1844, and among the Baha'i videos I expected to find, I saw this video. Does Ellen White share some of the visions that Joseph Smith had, for they both speak of the year 1844.
astrabella 3 years ago
Ellen White is not the second coming of Jesus. God always sent a prophet/messenger before some major event of His doing. ; Moses;deliverance of Israel, John the Baptist/1st coming of Jesus. I believe the same can be said about Ellen White. The SDA church is a fulfillment of Rev 12:17. The church & E White are fulfillments for the longest time prophecy in the Bible. (2300 days/years)
sleanos 3 years ago
Yes, this is true. The Bab was the forerunner in the Bahai faith, and said the main purpose of His mission was to prepare the people for the coming of Baha'u'llah. What other prophecies does Ellen White fulfill? Do you have a specific video that talks about this?
astrabella 3 years ago
Read this: tinyurl(DOT)com/2j2uyd, it is specific with bible prophetic time.
I have two videos on here that speaks about prophecy tinyurl(DOT)com/yrqxk5 & the true church as well tinyurl(DOT)com/yqbjuo (Lots of resources on right hand description pane of this page)
sleanos 3 years ago
Read this free pdf as well. I found it to be very informative and inspirational on Ellen White.
tinyurl(DOT)com/23bmgp
sleanos 3 years ago
I to see a difference between a prophet of God and a visionary. Joseph Smith was no prophet of God for he used methods clearly condemned by God Himself for his visions and mormons place Smith's words above the bible when in conflict. Ellen White had visions and dreams before the people, not in secret and everything she says is to be tested by the Bible itself, not the other way around.
sleanos 3 years ago
No, he was a visionary, and he's not responsible for what the Mormons have become. Just as Christ would not have had His word split so many different ways. What are some of the main prophecies made by Ellen White?
astrabella 3 years ago
She's responsible for bringing about health reformation. The medical/nutritional world has barely within the last few decades proven much of what Ellen White taught on health principles. She's prophesied numerous events during her time. There are many testimonies from doctors of her day who investigated her while actually in vision as well.
sleanos 3 years ago
There might be some overlap in the visions of E White and Joseph Smith, but that's only because Joseph Smith has stated a lot of truth along with error according to biblical principles. Read the history of both people and you'll the marked difference in the way they lived their lives. There really is no comparison.
sleanos 3 years ago
The evidence of the Bab and Baha'u'llah being Manifestations of God is insurmountable. William Sears, a Hand of the Cause and journalist, wrote a book called 'A Thief in the Night' which goes into great detail regarding Bible proofs to support these claims. Not to mention the miraculous incidences surrounding the Bab's martyrdom, that was witnessed by thousands, and even recorded in the newspapers. Baha'u'llah was an amazing person from childhood, with knowledge most grown people don't possess.
astrabella 3 years ago
No offense, but this proves nothing. The Bible says satan can transform himself into an angel of light and that the very elect of God can be deceived unless they immerse themselves in the Word of God & His Son Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit. I will get that book that you suggest and read it so I can more thoroughly address the statements within.
sleanos 3 years ago
There is no other name under heaven whereby men can be saved other than the name of Jesus,I don't recall Bahullah ever sacrificing
his life for anyone !
heirtothepromise 3 years ago
"ALL religions speak of the same Almighty"
This is simply untrue my friend and further investigation into all the faiths will guide you into this knowledge.
Abraham, Moses & Christ speak of the same God. Muhammed speaks of a different god and so does Baha'u'llah. There are very marked differences about what God requires amongst His followers just in these three religions alone, hence they do not lead to the same place/journey.
sleanos 3 years ago
There is only ONE GOD, and He is shared by many faiths. You should go to a multi faith conference sometime and you would see just how much these religions, do in fact, agree. I know you said you have researched other faiths, but that makes me further confused as to how you don't see we ALL speak of the same God with the same wondrous attributes. The reason God sends down these messengers one after another is because we can't handle the entire truth at once. The only difference is what's added.
astrabella 3 years ago
Multi faith conferences while being VERY good for brining about unity among people and eliminating religious bigotry and hatred, only makes it easier for some to compromise on certain elemental truths of their faiths. If you would like a list of things that our God requires of us because He has saved us, be happy to send it to you to compare with what Baha'u'llah says. Then you will see the incompatibility. Only 1 faith system can be %100 truth, they all can't be, which is it?
sleanos 3 years ago
Hers is what I've seen when examining the major Faiths. ALL have the same spiritual laws (no killing, respect your parents, no premarital sex, etc.), so, same requirements there. The only thing that changes is SOCIAL laws (no pork, multiple wives, etc.) because SOCIETY changes. How are we to progress positively in the world if nobody excepts that things change? Pork is safe now, so Christ says you can eat it. We don't have drastic numbers of men reduced by war, so you need only one wife.
astrabella 3 years ago
WOW! Pork is safe to eat?!?! Last I checked with doctors and nutritionists it fits the bill of the most unhealthy thing you can put in your body. Ever heard of trichina and a number of other diseases you can get from eating undercooked pork. God made pigs to cleanse the fallen earth, not for man to consume. Even secular atheists who CARE about their health understand this. Marriage has ALWAYS been 1 man and 1 woman in the biblical sense. Polgymany is never right in God's eyes.
sleanos 3 years ago
When Jesus Christ died, He nailed the Old Law to the cross (Colossians 2:14). Christ made the Law of Moses obsolete and replaced it with the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:13). Paul explained to Christians in Galatia that the Old Law was cast out and replaced by Christ's New Law (Galatians 4:21-31). The regulations about clean and unclean foods were jettisoned, along with rules for animal sacrifice, ritual washings, annual feast days, SABBATH OBSEVRVANCE, and a host of other ceremonial trappings.
astrabella 3 years ago
*sigh* No offense but have you seen the rest of my videos on here that explain why you and I see differently on the Old & New Covenants and what was included/excluded in them? The new covenant is older than the old covenant having been given to Adam & Eve in the garden *promise of a Messiah*. God's Holy & Perfect Law (10 Commandments including the 7th day sabbath) are at the heart of BOTH covenants.
sleanos 3 years ago
It is God's law of Love & Liberty (10 commandments) that was written on stone in the old covenant and is written on the heart in the new covenant. Forgiveness and divine strength to obey God is the new covenant. Obeying God in your OWN strength is the Old Covenant. Yes all the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament are obsolete, I agree. The 4rth commandment is NOT one of those however having been made in the garden along with marriage BEFORE fall of man.
sleanos 3 years ago
Let me ask you this, and let's use common sense and reason. So are you saying when Jesus died all of a sudden we can eat unclean animals and it is healthy for us like cockroaches, rats, lice & pigs.
sleanos 3 years ago
I agree with you that animal sacrifices are done away with. The 70 week prophecy of Daniel predicted Jesus's 1st coming and why the sacrifices would cease. This is why Jesus is called the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world and why the lamb offering without spot was used in the animal sacrificial system. It POINTED like a shadow to Jesus.
sleanos 3 years ago
Ritual washing - So are you saying we shouldn't wash our hands anymore? ;) Jesus addressed the Jewish teachers on this point primarily because they were imposing there man made regulations on others as if it had some merit to make a man "spiritually" clean with God. That's all that was. There is no requirement to "ritually wash" however I hope all can and are able to ritually take a bath/shower daily... for hygenic purposes. ;)
sleanos 3 years ago
Annual feast days - You are correct, these were specifically given to the nation of Israel, happened only once a year and were to commemorate things like their deliverance in Egypt. All of these are done away with, for they also foreshadowed the work of the Savior. They also act as a prophetic timeline for the Christian era as well. We are living in the time of judgment according to revelation, the jewish anti-typical "day of atonement". Laodicia - last church age - judging of the people.
sleanos 3 years ago
I find it ironic that people would try to do away with the 7th day sabbath, the longest of the 10 commandments, the ONLY day specifically blessed and sanctified by God in the garden BEFORE sin along with "marriage". The Father "rested" as an example to us then and it was Jesus - Son of God's CUSTOM to worship on the Sabbath with everyone. We are to "walk" with the Lord EVERYDAY in spirit & truth, but He calls us to keep HIS day Holy. It was made FOR man to draw us especially closer to our God.
sleanos 3 years ago
I just don't understand why there are so many secular churches. It seems anyone can pick the parts of one Manifestation they agree with and some from another, discard the rest, call it theirs, and then build a church from it. You either except the whole word of Christ or you don't. Of course some of what Christ said was different then Moses, and so on. What would be the point in Christ returning to tell all of the same Gospel over again? One thing out of context and He
astrabella 3 years ago
I understand what you mean. Those were my sentiments as well and when I finally investigated the bible and the Christian faith, I was convicted to find a church that obeyed ALL of it by the Grace of God, not just some of it. The 10 commandments are too plain for the Christian. Jesus taught keep it all in spirit and truth. There is letter of the law which we should naturally obey and then there is the spiritual aspects of the law. Much like police officer granting you grace/pardon for speeding.
sleanos 3 years ago
That's what I believe we have in the Baha'i Faith. A religion that speaks of progressive revelation, of unity in all faiths. That you don't have to give up your beliefs in Moses OR Christ, for they were the Truth. I am interested to find out more about Ellen White, and I encourage your quest for religious knowledge as well. That way we both know where the other is coming from.
astrabella 3 years ago
Another good spot is whiteestate(DOT)org to investigate on Ellen White.
sleanos 3 years ago
God's Holy Law that He spoke with His own mouth and wrote with His finger never changes. If it could, Jesus would not have had to die on the cross for you or I.
Check out bibleuniverse DOT com's free prophecy course and watch the videos. I think you may enjoy them.
sleanos 3 years ago