Question on Mary I

[Shemaines]

Mary wasn´t a saint but elizabeth wasn´t better than her both did what they consider good for their kingdom in my opinion both wanted fight for the religion that they learn from their mothers. And I have to say that phillip was the hand behaind mary´s laws against protestants. Many kings and queens kill people even more than "bloody mary" but her enemys (elizabeth too) gave bloody mary this epithet (sorry for my english)

[lookinglass123]

Hey! Thanks for your reply :)

Hearing everyone's opinions on this really helped me decide my own (and I was kind of hovering on the subject, I'm going to write it out at a later date).

Thanks again!

[AnaliaHyrule]

On the subject of Mary, although she did kill a lot less people than her dad and sister, she was only on the throne for about 5 years. Henry, correct me if I'm wrong, was there 38 years and Elizabeth 44 years. The number that Mary killed would have risen had she lived-that's how I feel.

[katfauxanneboleyn]

I feel the same, that's why I think she deserves the name "Bloody Mary."

[GoddessofHyrule]

I do too.

[lookinglass123]

Undoubtedly it would have risen. But those are manipulated stats. The Marian persecutions marked, according to Foxe, 284 deaths by burning. Take Henry's reign - any five years after about 1535, and you can say with certainty that he matched his daughter. I think that the claim of 72,000 deaths in Henry's reign is absurd, but there is evidence for slaughter equal to Mary's. Not defending either of them...but still.

[lisaannejane2]

I looked up Mary on Wikipedia - that article stated that she suffered from many physical ailments. From what I can make of this time in history, the Reformation in England was a time of much turmoil and angst for all. Mary starts her life as a Catholic - even Henry had no intentions of breaking from the church until the events surrounding his wanting an end to his first marriage led him to want to be head of the church. Religious turmoil led to much unrest and violence for any Tudor ruler.

[lookinglass123]

I totally appreciate what you are saying - Anne, one of the main instigators of the reformation, was really the one who ruined Mary's life.

By physical ailments...do you mean she was beaten, because I am pretty sure that's just a rumour.

[katfauxanneboleyn]

I know Mary was a sickly woman, and she actually died, I think, from illness. I could be wrong. I think that's what she meant by physical ailments. Mary wasn't beaten.

[GeneLovesClassic1980]

Mary was raised as Catholic. Although she was demoted to Lady Mary, she's determined to have her rights so as not to let her mother's sufferings go to waste... I think she spares Elizabeth from execution cuz she knows tt England will go into chaos/civil wars should Elizabeth died... after Phillp's departure, she finally realizes that Spain has never supported her from the beginning despite her blood relations..

[GeneLovesClassic1980]

Elizabeth was raised as Protestant & she's highly aware of her mother's history... Plus, after witnessing how her father & siblings rule, their marriages, highs and lows, she made sure tt she won't make the same mistakes as they did, even if it means remaining single for the rest of her life..

[lookinglass123]

Thanks for the comment.

Really appreciate it ^_^

[LNor19]

Your question has got me thinking.

We've got 'Glorinna' and 'Golden Queen' for Liz.

'Reinassance King' and 'Buff King Hal' for VIII

'The Boy King' of Edward

What should be Mary's?

'The Catholic Queen'? 'The First Queen'?

[lookinglass123]

Haha. That's a good thought - I like the First Queen, you can take from that what you will. Bloody Mary is a bit too telling.

[katharinethequene]

I like "The First Queen" too, it's the title of the recent bio. of Mary released a few months ago.

[lookinglass123]

Really?

Who's it by?

[katharinethequene]

Linda Porter

[lookinglass123]

Thanks...haven't even heard of her. Any good?

[katharinethequene]

I had a flip through it at the bookshop and it looked realy good, 'm going to buy it soon.

[lookinglass123]

Ooo.okay. I'll order it from the library then. I wikipedied her...apparently its working on a biography of Kathryn Parr - odd couple, Mary and Parr. Anyways, I love KP, she is so underated.

[katharinethequene]

They got on well, Mary and Katherine(And I'm sorryI'm not spelling her name the way you like it! But I spell it COA- Catherine, KH - Kathryn and KP- Katharine) Lol, KP even named her daughter after Mary.

Though it's a little weird Mary's stepmother was young enough that she was actually named after her own mother.

[lookinglass123]

Hehe. Don't worry. KP died in childbirth though and although she got on well with all of Henry's kids she was closest to Elizabeth (I know you know that, just saying)

Still. I think they make an odd couple in terms of biographies. I would expect someone to do Mary/Elizabeth. Catherine/Anne, ect.

[katharinethequene]

Yeah, but I guess they're the women she likes/admires/is interested in. Antoina Fraser writes about various diffrent people, and they're not really to do with eachother.

[LNor19]

There is no excusing or justifing the Marion Perscutions, however Mary does not deserve the name "Bloody".

The name "Bloody" came from people who didn't know Mary or even lived during her reign, it's started during James I reign after Elizabeth.

What Mary's council had done to Prostestants was wrong, but it wasn't uncommon in Europe at the time, so any other Monarch who ruled at the time should have the "Bloody" attached to their name also in that case.

[LNor19]

In regards to the 289 deaths in the last years of Mary's reign, and the name "Bloody" coming from that, her father racked a great amount in his long reign, and during any five years after 1533, it is undoubtful that he had far more the 289 people executed, in fact his reign was marked at 72,000 and he was called "Buff King Hal" of endearment not disdain by the people for the longest time after his death.

So in actuallity...who was the "Bloody" Tudor?

[lookinglass123]

Just about every historian has different estimates for the amount of death caused by Henry though - you can never get the full picture.

All the Tudors very bloody lol, every one.

[lookinglass123]

I agree with you about justifying it. Also you raised a really important point that I'd never really thought about - how Mary alone has that epithet, whereas those who committed equal atrocities did not. However, in terms of English monarchs,  I think that she had the most extreme and harmful religious policy, worse than that of her father and sisters.

[LNor19]

I respect your opinion, IMO in regards to Tudor Monarch policies, I'd have to say all the Tudors (aside from VII) were quite harsh when it came to religion.

Henry started perscuting Prostestants, then Catholics, and by the end of his reign...well he quite discriminating.

Edward was just as harsh as Mary toward the end of his reign, but towards Catholics.

Mary vice versa.

Elizabeth started off tolerant for the time, but her reign went on, Priest holes, and public quartering became popular.

[lookinglass123]

Well. Edward died at 15 and although I accept he was a fierce protestant, he was very much a puppet king, controlled first by Seymour then by Northumberland. Mary's council was also, in my opinion, appalling, as was the council from her husband. But she was older and should to great degree be held responsible for her actions. Same goes for Elizabeth.

[lookinglass123]

Both Elizabeth and Mary were provoked into turning against the other faith. There was the rising against Mary and all the worsening relations with Spain for Elizabeth.

What sets Elizabeth slightly above Mary in my opinion, is that she persecuted people for political stability, not solely the maintenance of faith, and though she had many killed, Starkey estimates it at less than Mary (in proportion). Also, as a monarch, Elizabeth greatly bettered England,

[lookinglass123]

well that's the popular opinion anyway, and I am inclined to believe it. Mary did some good, but ultimately, her reign was scarred by the Marian prosecutions and military defeat for England. Mary also spent an awful lot of money that (after Henry's reign) England did not have.

[LaurenWinchester27]

I think that the amount of people she executed was terrible, but I don't believe that she deserves the title "Bloody Mary". History is written by the victors, which is why history is so biased towards Elizabeth and against Mary. I mean, a few years ago I used to think that Mary was a total monster, the "villian" of the Tudor story, while Elizabeth could do no wrong. Then I actually studied the Tudors in history and I realised that neither Mary or Elizabeth were quite what I thought they were.

[LaurenWinchester27]

Also, I'm not sure if this "justifies" her actions exactly, but I have to wonder whether Mary was even mentally stable by the time she came to the throne. I mean, what she went through...being rejected by her father, torn apart from her mother, stripped of everything that made her who she was, replaced by new princess and being forced to serve her, while Anne encouraged the head of Elizabeth's household to beat Mary every time she acted above her new position. I can't even imagine how traumatic

[LaurenWinchester27]

(cont) that must have been for a teenage girl, I would be surprised if there wasn't some serious lasting damage.

Elizabeth didn't go through that. She did lose her mother, but at a much younger age and she stil had people who were always there to love and care for her, ie. Kat Ashley. She must have been much more well-adjusted than Mary, so I can understand why she did coped better when she came to the throne. Well, that's the end of my ramblings, lol. Thanks for posting this, it's interesting!

[lookinglass123]

Thanks so much for your contribution, it's been really interesting to hear everyone else's opinions.

[katharinethequene]

I also have to wonder if she was mentally stable, I mean she had an eating disorder and I think that is a type of mental illness.

[lookinglass123]

She suffered from depression as well. Eating disorders are also classed as a type of mental illness.

[lookinglass123]

I don't think Elizabeth was the 'victor' - there was very little emnity between Elizabeth and Mary, especially until Mary came to the throne.

Also, Elizabeth's achievements as a queen far outstrip Mary's, and the horrors of Mary's reign (in proportion) outstrip Elizabeth's. I like both of them and I really feel for Mary, because she really, really suffered. However, in terms of being a successful political force, Elizabeth had the edge, big time.

[LaurenWinchester27]

Oh, I don't disagree that Elizabeth was far more successful than Mary, she definitely was. She just wasn't as perfect as I originally thought, before I actually studied her reign.

And by "victors", I was actually referring to the Protestants. I'd like to believe that Mary and Elizabeth did always love each other, even when their relationship turned sour. They seemed to be so close when they were younger.

[lookinglass123]

Oh I'm sorry, I think I misinterpreted your answer. I think the fact that Mary was continually urged to have Elizabeth executed, as she did Jane Grey, but never did, does count for something.

[LaurenWinchester27]

Yes, I should have been more clear, lol.

I agree, Mary's reluctance to have Elizabeth executed, despite the fact that she was next in line for the throne, must count for something.

[katharinethequene]

xxxxxxsxy - She didn't try and kill Elizabeth.

[gapeachjessica]

Mary only wanted the love of her husband, parents, English people, and the comfort of her religion. She was deprived of most of that. Though she may have made some mistakes in her reign, I believe that her heart was in the right place.

[gapeachjessica]

In the end, I feel a great sympathy for both Elizabeth and Mary. Mary is one of the most tragic monarchs in English history because all people bother to remember her for is persecuting "heretics". When Mary was separated from her mother and father, her religion comforted her greatly, so it is no surprise that she should be so passionate about Catholicism in her reign and try desperately to restore it to England.

[gapeachjessica]

Mary, on the other hand, was going through her late childhood and adolescence when she suffered the most, which are the most important years for psychological/emotional development. She was never able to fully overcome her past, so she was instead consumed by it. I've always felt the moniker "Bloody" was so unfair. Although she did send "heretics" to their deaths, so did many other monarchs of the time. People also forget that she did good things in her reign too, like open trade with Russia.

[gapeachjessica]

Hi Emma! Excellent discussion you have going here.:-) I think Elizabeth was able to overcome her difficult childhood for two reasons: 1)most of the difficulties occurred very early on in her childhood and maybe they did not impact her very much because she did not remember some of the events, and was not developed enough to recognize what was going on. 2) I believe that she was probably just better psychologically/emotionally equipped than Mary, so her childhood did not impact her as greatly.

[lookinglass123]

Hey, thanks!

A lot of people have said that - it was a strength that Elizabeth did not know her mother, nor remember when she was a legitimate heir. I've always thought that it was a weakness, particularly given as we know Elizabeth felt some kind of affinity to Anne, but never recognized in publicly.

But now I am beginning to see what you mean, Mary's affinity to her mother forced her closer to her faith, with disastrous consequences.

[gapeachjessica]

H! You're welcome.:-) I can see the situation from that view point as well, that maybe it was a weakness Elizabeth did not know her mother. Surely, she must have been traumatized to learn that her mother had been killed at the orders of her own father. Didn't she wear a ring containing a picture of her mother? Anyway, some people just better equipped to deal with tragedy than others. Elizabeth was one of those people.

[lookinglass123]

Yeah she did. I know what your saying, Mary suffered from mental illness as well, which Elizabeth never did. And maybe Elizabeth was just stronger. I like Melina's point as well, that Elizabeth did have a lot of love in her life. Mary had less.

[katharinethequene]

She also suffered from an eating disorder which she got in her teens due to the stress of her parent's annullemnt, and eating disorders are a type of mental illness.

[lookinglass123]

Yeah. That too.

[AnaliaHyrule]

I had an eating disorder too.

[katharinethequene]

Emma! This is a great question, it's interesting to hear other people's opinions

[lookinglass123]

Thanks, I think so too! There should be more of this kind of stuff around :)

It was you who inspired it on the Anne Boleyn page :P

[IloveAnneBoleyn]

Her judgement ability was also one flaw that I dislike, for she seems to lack the idea on what she is doing.....it is said that she followed her husband (another bastard!!!)'s wishes in England's policy.

[IloveAnneBoleyn]

However, I dislike Mary I, for she seems to put her personal feelings in the first place, ignoring the situation of England. Instead of solving the religious conflicts in a peaceful way, she chose to react the other way around.

She burned 75 person per year, when her sister burn 1 every 9 years. As I remember, burning is an extremely painful execution, compare to beheading.

[katharinethequene]

She didn't kill 75 every year, that's way over the actual no.

[katharinethequene]

Anne urged people to slap her if she claimed to be a Princess reminding her "of the cursed bastard she is".So not exactly stepmother of the year :S

[IloveAnneBoleyn]

Also, Mary was gentle to her brother and sister, if I recall David Starkey's Elizabeth biography, they were in good relationships, but turn sour when Edward get the crown......

In her youth, Mary deserved to be respected.

[IloveAnneBoleyn]

I personally have a positive attitude towards Mary in her youth, for she remained strong towards her father's cruel treatment. (Anne was not really responsible for the accusation, an excellent essay from littlemisssunnydale proved a powerful evidence against the common belief, that Anne was trying to harm Mary.....Anne dislikes Mary, for they both have direct conflicts in personal iterest

[katharinethequene]

Well Anne threatened to murder Mary on several occassions,a letter in which she threatend Mary was left around for Mary to see,she threatened to marry her off to a varlet,threatened make her work in her own household,actually made her be part of elizabeth's household in which she was given the worst room and reported to cry continuasly.Anne's relatives treated Mary cruelly,

[IloveAnneBoleyn]

About Mary's household affairs.....

It was known that in the 16 century, the royal children's affairs was decided by the king, but not the Queen consent, it was heny who reduced Mary's household and send her to Elizabeth.

p.s: Before I make another reply, I hope we can maintain a peaceful discussion atmoshpere in here :)

[IloveAnneBoleyn]

Also, the Chaquys, marked down every detail of Anne Boleyn's threats towards Mary. Although Anne gave out many, none was actually carry out. Also, Mary had neither suffer from any slapping nor any physical punishment.

[IloveAnneBoleyn]

The real villain behind the scene, was Henry. His attitude towards her daughter was only showed when Anne died, that reconcilation between the father and daughter had not happened. Instead, Henry threatened to send Mary to the tower, until Mary obeyed,

Henry once spoke to Lord Paget. that although he loved his children, if any sense of disobedient was shown, he will take brutel measures against them.

[lookinglass123]

Thank you for bringing that up!

Henry only showed the lengths he would go to suppress Mary AFTER Anne's death.

[katharinethequene]

The threats were still mad enough, I for one wouldn't like someone saying things liek that to me, it would make me fear for my life!

[IloveAnneBoleyn]

Yeah, I know, neither will I want to be under such threats. :)

But we must understand, Mary was on a political scene, she participated actively against the Boleyns and her father. If she was willing to accuse someone directly as "Witch" or "Whore", she must have understood the risks of doing it. The British court is not a game of fun, but a game of power. Mary rejected Anne's offer of reconcilation, she knew the risk.

If I were Anne, I wouldn't like to call a witch or whore, when I was not one

[lookinglass123]

Thank you for bringing that up, it always seems that people forget that.

[katharinethequene]

If I was Mary I wouldn't like to accept the person who took my mother's place as Queen, I also wouldn't like to be called "bastard" when i wasn't one, or my "disobediance" in not accepting anne as queen being blamed on "unbridled Spanish blood". Anne's offer of reconcilation came at a price - betray her mother and herself.

[lookinglass123]

She did 'betray her mother and herself' later on though...

[katharinethequene]

She thought she did, she felt guilty for the rest of her life after signing the document saying she was a bastard her mother's marriage was incestoues etc. Yeah I know she only had the power to sign warrents, but they still just burned people.

[lookinglass123]

Yeah I agree with you, I just put it in inverted commas as a follow up.

The only point I was making, though in my opinion Mary had terrible council both from her husband and ministers, is that through signing 300 warrants, she caused three hundred deaths.

[katharinethequene]

272, but yeah she had terrible council and a terrible husband.

[lookinglass123]

I think I said that?

[katharinethequene]

Yeah, I was just agreeing with you.

[lookinglass123]

Yay :)

Hey, if your still online, can you look at my new preview vid (its only like 30 seconds)?

[AnaliaHyrule]

burning I think is the worst way to go....

[GoddessofHyrule]

just burned people? How do you think you'd feel if you were tied to a stake and the fire at your feet? I think burning to death is one of the worst ways to go!

[lookinglass123]

I don't think anyone disputes that burning is probably one of the worst ways to go...maybe being hung, drawn and quartered rivals it. But its certainly one of the most brutal forms of execution. That's not in question...

[GoddessofHyrule]

I agree. :/

[xxHistoryGirl23xx]

I dont think the actions of Mary as queen are justified by her earlier traumas. Instead the fact that she was treated so badly by almost everyone in her life, not just Anne and Henry (Edward in his reign hounded her like crazy- it was probably the most dangerous time of her life) provides a type of life map that shows why it happened. Then again, Mary was Catherine's daughter. Catherine came from a country where the Inquisition burned, tortured, and killed many non-Catholics. Catherine did ...

[xxHistoryGirl23xx]

not object to these killings because Spain was radically religious (according to today's standards). So why would her lonely, forsaken also catholic and fanatically religious daughter object to the killings? In other words, for Mary the killings were doing God's work and in some way are not related to the fact that her father was a buttface who kept murdering wives. I dont think she deserves the term Bloody Mary though.

[lookinglass123]

Oh, sorry, I didn't see that part of your response. Personally, I can see why she has been dubbed Bloody Mary, she sent hundreds to their deaths in the name of her faith, on some fanatic, catholic doctrine that was not in line with contemporary standards let alone today's.

It's just many people justify this, or account for it, by the way Anne and Henry treated her, and her fear of protestantism, which led to her marriage, at the very least.

[lookinglass123]

Catherine didn't really have any links to the inquisition though...?

[xxxxxxsxy]

Well i don't think they should have called her "Bloody Mary" for a start but to be honest from what i've read about her ... Mary's councel were bad (giving her bad advice etc) and the only times i've known Mary to be bad was when religion kicked in and her husband didn't help either ... but she did try to kill Elizabeth and change the country Catholic which didn't help (this is all just my opinion lol).

[lookinglass123]

Yeah!

Opinion is what I want. What your saying happens to be the consensus. I am still undecided as to whether she deserves the title 'bloody'

[xxxxxxsxy]

Yes i am too ... in some ways to me Mary does but then in some ways she does not :/ it's a tough one

[lookinglass123]

haha. I know what you mean!

[katharinethequene]

Yeah Mary's council were very bad, and when she was ill they still continued with the burnings even though she didn't give them permission.

[lookinglass123]

ONLY Mary had the power to sign the warrants, not her council nor her controlling husband.

[thetudors85]

love it good job

[lookinglass123]

Thanks!

[JaneSeymeor]

is beautiful the video

[lookinglass123]

Thank you :D

[katharinethequene]

Oh also, she most certainyl does NOT deserve the title "Bloody Mary" seen as she killed less than her father and both her siblings, and quite a lot of these deaths were done without her knowledge or concent, and anyway her husband Phillip emotionally blackmailed her into doing it - Sounds like a nice bloke doesnt he?! ppfft.

<3

[lookinglass123]

OMG I HATE Phillip, if I could dig him up and scream at him I would.

On the subject of Mary, although she did kill a lot less people than her dad and sister, she was only on the throne for about 5 years. Henry, correct me if I'm wrong, was there 38 years and Elizabeth 44 years. The number that Mary killed would have risen had she lived.

[gapeachjessica]

katharinethequene, I completely agree with you! You said exactly what I had intended to say. I'm not very articulate LOL.

[katharinethequene]

And she wasn't allowed to see her mother, and later she would be threatened with death(not for by any means the first time) because of not following her brother's religion. Also, being made to be part of her half sister's household must have been humiltaing. Also in the 16th centuary being branded a bastard and you're mother a liar and nothing but a King's mistress for twenty years was really not good. PS - Emma, great question! Hope you're doign well xx

[katharinethequene]

I think her actions can be explained easily when you look at her childhood, it wasn't enough for the poor girl's parents to get seperated but she was so stressed by that she actually had an eating disorder because of it, then you look at the treatment of her by both Henry and Anne, no one deserves what they did to her, she was so scared of her father the next time she saw him she fainted, I'm sure if Anne had lived she would have fainted because of seeing her too!

[lookinglass123]

Haha. I'd faint if I saw Henry, think about it: divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived...not good odds!

No I don't think Mary deserved it either, and appreciate that she was mentally ill, but ultimetly Mary was culpable for the deaths of many and creating a realm placed at the feat of Spain and the Catholic Church.

[MelinaPendulum]

Hey!

How are you?

Um, I don't think ANYONE thinks the actions of her reign are justified. I mean there is no justification for kill 300 people.

However, I think those of us who like Mary I see it more like she was turned into a monster due to her horrible childhood. We see her actions as the result of terrible treatment by, Henry, Anne, Edward and others.

So we understand it.

Justify it? No.

[MelinaPendulum]

Second question, no she doesn't deserve it simply because there have been plenty of Kings and Queens who have done worse things. The name is propaganda, just like the slanders against AB

[MelinaPendulum]

Elizabeth avoided the same fate because her upbringing was totally different.

She wasn't around the religious struggles, or really knew her mother to suffer the loss of her like Mary did. Unlike Mary, I don't think Elizabeth grew up with very strict religious learnings.

Also, she still had alot of love from different people, especially Kat Ashley.

Then, her reign lasted longer and she did alot of good to counter balance the bad she did as well.

[lookinglass123]

Her reign was longer. But from the offset her religious policy was a lot less draconian, you know all the 'I will not cast mirrors in to men's souls' or whatever(don't quote me on that). Persecution of Catholics only flared up in Elizabeth's reign after the Spanish Armada, and it was a lot less than what Mary did.

[MelinaPendulum]

I agree, she did have less strict religious policy. I think that is because religion wasn't that big of an issue when Elizabeth was growing up.

Edward, was somewhat of the catholic Mary in the making, but he died young.

[lookinglass123]

The slanders against AB are tend to be 'whore', 'Jezebel', 'usurper', 'pretender' - that kind of thing. What Anne did was against Catherine, I'm not justifying it, but what Mary did was against a faith, and that ending up killing 300. So yeah, I am really undecided about whether she deserved it. Sorry this is a bit of pointless comment.

[MelinaPendulum]

lol, its not pointless.

I think that when you have someone like Elizabeth Bathory who killed 600 woman for no reason, but to bathe in their blood to stay young, on list of most evil women in history and Mary I is there too, something is wrong.

Yes, what she did was wrong, but she wasn't a monster in the sense that people try to make her.

[lookinglass123]

Ohh...is this the Montifiorre list? I disagree with that list intensely. You simply can't juxtapose Henry VIII and Hitler, or Mary and Bathory, and dubbed them all monsters.

I don't get what you mean by 'the sense that people make her out to be'?

[MelinaPendulum]

I heard people saying that she burned a pregnant woman alive. Which is completely untrue, since pregnant woman could not be killed, doubled with the fact that Mary would never kill a child, not when she wanted them so much.

Also, people have said she hated Elizabeth and Edward, which wasn't true in their childhood. (I mean she helped raise both of them)

Then she gets demonized in the Jane Grey situation, when Bess did the same to Mary Queen of Scots,

[lookinglass123]

I actually think that Mary comes off better than Elizabeth, in that light, because although Mary did have Jane Grey executed (not immediately, and after Jane Grey had refused to plead guilty) she didn't have Elizabeth killed, whom she feared far more, and by contemporary standards, her murder would be considered killing 'god's anointed queen' , which is exactly what Elizabeth did to Mary Queen of Scots.

[MelinaPendulum]

Well I don't think Mary wanted to kill Elizabeth, I mean this was her sister who she helped raise and take care of. They did have a bond.

I think that Mary gets hounded for that because of her already black reputation.

Where as Elizabeth is "Good Queen Bess"

[lookinglass123]

Yeah I completely agree with you.

Mary did not want to kill Elizabeth. I doubt Elizabeth wanted to kill Mary Stuart. But I think Mary was strong enough, against all her council, to save Elizabeth's life. Elizabeth didn't do the same for Mary Stuart.

[lookinglass123]

Also I appreciate that she certainly didn't hate Elizabeth or Edward, though their family situation was rather f**ked, that's Henry's fault.

[MelinaPendulum]

She loved them until religion and court politics broke them apart.

[lookinglass123]

Yeah, they did love eachother. But the set up between them was competitive and hierarchical. Religion and politics did kick in, and they all had reason to resent each other in the first place, Mary and Elizabeth in particular. I guess the situation between them was unteneble.

[lookinglass123]

Hey. I am okay. Really bored and should be revising - made that video instead :P

I don't think it can be justified either, by no means. But I get that a lot.

I agree with you, also I think that Mary's council while she was on the throne was pretty poor, and 'council' from that horrible husband of hers also contributed.

[MelinaPendulum]

Also, she ruled with her heart and was much to emotional to be queen. She was also very stubborn.

I think that if she had just been allowed to go to Spain like she wanted, then she could have been happy, married and had the children she wanted to have.