Christianity and Islamism are both violent religions that have expanded their dominions inmensely due to their use of military institutions. These two religions wouldnt be so powerful and hold in its grip the millions of people, acres and dollars they now have if it wasnt for the violent methods they put in effect for invading, manipulating and plundering other cultures. The word respect is not in their vocabulary in regards to other's peoples rigth to profess any beleif they want.
@otirudam False. Islam, as you know, is built on violence. It would be honorable to murder your children if they listen to rock, whereas a Christian would pray for their child. How is that the same? Before you default to "the crusades!" read up and know something about them. They were far from Christians going out to kill muslims.
*sigh* there's always a gigantic group of retards that got suckered into a pyramid scheme and they may take a loss in money, they don't lose it all. There are also a bunch of people that have imaginary friends. most have to see a psychiatrist. There are also people that believe everything they read in books. Even a further step, there are people that also stand on the corner yelling crazy things :usually bums:. But once they say "I'm christian" all their delusions gain validity?
Overall John Mac is waving the red flag over compromise. He believes the YRR is compromising to bring in rock and roll worship style, compromising to dress sloppy, compromising to drink, compromising to multi-church video the senior pastor, compromising to pattern themselves after arminian evangelicals, compromising to associate with heterodox leaders, compromising to open up conferences to known compromisers of faith and practice. He's saying the YRR is immature, lacking discerning.
What Im hearing is the young leadership of reformed teaching is just too scruffy, its unpolished, its too culturally attached and as such do not understand the institutional-calvinism which John is a part of. John Mac wants more than correct doctrine, he wants correct mannerism (as he defines it) for the YRR leaders. His concern is, the YRR is so worldly they will backslide into arminian practice as quickly as they left arminian doctrine.
Does MacArthur think that his ecclesiology is reformed? It isn't. He distinguishes between Israel and the Church and he does not baptize infants. There are many other things also. He is dispensational in his ecclesiology, not reformed.
How is it that wearing blue jeans and drinking beer is Arminianism? I'm a Calvinist, but I get concerned when Calvinism and Arminianism are simply defined as not only polar opposites, but the only two choices. It starts to sound like MacArthur is saying that what I believe is Calvinism and everything else is Arminianism. What a shallow view of theology and the Scriptures.
@McDonnelMark "a bunch of young guys" "holes in jeans" "beer in hand" Macarthur seems like he is focusing a lot at outward appearance. Jesus was young. He didn't wear suites and ties. and he turned water into wine. I have a feeling John would have called him an Arminian too and may not have liked him either.
Pick whatever flavor of gospel and Jesus that works for you I guess. Sad.
Before you lemmings attack me, take a hard look inside your heart. How is your quiet fellowship with the Lord going, in the still time when no one is watching and the loud music stops. How long do you meditate on His word? Sit at His feet? Inch deep I bet. These guys are angels of light. Beware !!!
Wherein can a young man cleanse his ways? By taking heed according to thy word. Thy word have I hid in my heart that I m
Having been in Driscoll's church for six months, where everything is about Driscoll as "solo Driscoll", not "solo scriptura", I agree completely with Dr. McArthur. I went to church and a ear deafening hard rock concert broke out.
What next? Todd Bentley at the next Desiring God conference? Mr. Piper, please change the name of your conference to "Pleasing the Times" Conference, for the sake of honesty. And T4G and Gospel Coalition? Pick whatever flavor of gospel and Jesus that works for you
Love Dr. MacArthur - but in the reformed circles I am discipled and grow - we are not doing anything that he describes as "problems". It may be more beautiful and alive than he realizes. He may see a small sample size of YRR that he's concerned about.
There is no yes, it does. There is only, the text says what the text says. It is not I who am using poor hermeneutics. "These are written for you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you know that you have eternal life" DOES NOT APPEAR IN 1 JOHN! Please stop reading into the text, and then accusing me of reading into it. As is obvious, it is not I who am reading into the text. I guess verses 20 and 21 of chapter 2 mean nothing to you, do they.
Cant we do as Jesus, James, Peter and Paul commanded and love one another (Christians who hold to the essentials)? The topic should stay a theological discussion since in practice to us who dont know the heart, there are only two people in the world. Those following Jesus and those who are not...if they arent (Saved or not saved) the message is the same...repent, confess, and get right with God then obey. If they are following Jesus, then we embrace and accept them as brothers. Jesus is Central.
Yet God can only be "just" if we each have the freedom to choose to accept or reject him. This doesnt automatically negate "the security of the believer" for once I have chosen God, I find that he also has chosen me and am secure in HIS power. Nor does it (As Arminius speculated) mean we can choose to lose our salvation either, but that's contrary to many verses that show us secure. The fact remains, for God to be "JUST" we must each have a choice (from God) & the ability to choose God or not.
the way we practice our free will is to choose. The second (God being sovereign is UNKNOWABLE in practice yet Reformist continualy assert that they know HOW God is sovereign in practice...HE MAKES US WANT to do good. This is the great assumption of Calvin-Reformed Theology which doesnt work out (as Beza proves) when you try to say that this is ALWAYS "How" God is sovereign over our freewill. You find yourself blaming God for Adam's sin and thus all of mankind's. This is extra-biblical theology.
Following the logic of Calvin, Beza...his greatest student, came to the conclusion that God caused Adam to sin. This was the straw that broke another student's back...Arminius who said, Wait a second, if God CAUSED Adam to sin, then when can man be held responsible for his sin? This is the dilema which has been passed on by reformists for centuries now. Man must be somehow responsible for his actions while God must somehow be sovereign. The first is clearly stated and defined in practice. (cont)
Or Reformed soteriology but baptist ecclessiogy and dispensational eschatology , pastor Macarthur is doing the same he is not a real reformed pastor like presbiterians o dutch reformed...
The origin of this huge problem, men teaching and doing what they want in the name of Christianity, is Calvinism. They believe they are saved no matter how far they drift away from the true gospel of Jesus Christ. How do you bring them back when they are totally deceived in what they believe. They do not believe that without holiness no man shall see the Lord.
The bible is the way only to know God. For a greater understanding of His true nature I found the following scriptures especially helpful: Zechariah 14: 1-2 Deuteronomy 22:28-2 Numbers 31:17-18 Leviticus 25: 44-46 Exodus 21:7 Exodus 21: 20-21 1 Peter 2:18 Jeremiah 19: 9 A must read for all.
Of whom is John MacArthur speaking? . . . Mark Driscoll??? If he is is then we should ask ourselves why the reformed theologians are starting to fight amongst each other.
That's right Mac, blame the Arminians for the unholy lifestyles of your reformed buddies. That's exactly what Adam and Eve did - blame someone else for your own sins. Or is is called the Pharisaic prayer: "Oh thank you Lord for I am not a sinner like the Armenian publicans. They are wretched reprobates." Shame on you Mac.
True and Good.... but John need not lump all Young Reformed in the same boat. I, for instance do not fit any of the characteristics that John name. I do believe in sanctification, holiness, shepherding the flock, discipline, and modesty to say the least. a
Just saying...lol but I love my brother John though, he is so sound. I thank God for him... Shalom Shalom...
Mac loves to play the justification only gospel card, because in his view justification is incomplete. He works to guilt trip us into doing more for God. So it's not about you, according to him, it's about God, but oh by the way, have you done enough for God? Because if you haven't, then you're going to Hell, even if you've been justified. Hebrews 10:1-2. You should learn it. What do my works secure? Nothing! And anyone who denies this denies Christ.
lol. What Reformed revival?! Mac's reformation is a perversion of the Gospel of Grace. He's right about absorbing the culture, but then again, Satan is right about God being one too.
@rofyle Easy believism is a perversion of the Gospel of grace that Paul condemned in Romans 8:13 and which Revelation 2 condemns regarding the Niccolatains. Lordship is the Gospel of grace since by grace you are granted regeneration, faith, justification and sanctification - submission to God in all of it - all by grace. I think the easy believists don't understand depravity or regeneration or the nature of saving faith; what a person who exercises saving faith looks like.
@KeithTruth Catch the false dichotomy? If you're not for MacArthur, then you must be an easy believist. It's obvious you have no other choice. Or is it?
Why is it the Mac never references the Haldanes, Gill, Owen?
I'm not an advocate of Zane Hodges. The Bible says believe, and you continue to believe or you never believed to begin with. Mac says you might have been justified, but unless you work, you're lost. Hodges and Mac are both false
@rofyle MacArthur quotes Gill on pp. 265-66 in the Gospel According to Jesus. He quotes Gill's work A Body of Divinity where Gill affirms the nature of the regenerated individual who has converted and is being sanctified. And Gill agrees with MacArthur. This is the historic Protestant position. It is what the Bible teaches. Neither Mac nor other Lordship writers say unless you work you're lost. They say those who cease to work, if they are truly justified, will be chastised and put back on track
@KeithTruth "Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny" - J MacArthur, Hard to Believe, p. 93
@rofyle That's about final salvation i.e., glorification which is true. "Rom. 8:13 if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." He's not talking about forensic justification which is by a repentant faith or trust in Jesus. The thief was justified by repentant faith and didn't have a chance to show his faith by his life like everyone else does. Everyone else is ordered to show their faith by their works James 2:18
@KeithTruth Yes, he is talking about forensic justification. I would explain here, but just plain not enough space to do so. Won't leave you empty handed though. See Robert Haldane's commentary on Romans 8. You can read it online. Just "Google Robert Haldane Commentary on Romans online"
@rofyle living a life in obedience and service to Christ is the result of salvation, not the cause of it. the washing of regeneration by the Holy Spirit with the blood of Jesus Christ is salvation. the soul that is justified in Christ's blood by the power of the Holy Spirit will exhibit a life that is being consecrated unto a life of holiness and to walking after the righteousness that is Jesus Christ, who as Jeremiah put it is THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
@rofyle the fruit are the evidence of this work of the Holy Spirit. it is afterall so named the fruit of the Spirit, not the fruit of man. men have over the centuries made great efforts at counterfeiting the fruit of the Spirit. but God knows which fruit is his. it is the Vine that is Jesus Christ himself, through the Holy Spirit that produces fruit. the branch, which we are, does not of itself produce any fruit.
@rofyle the works which the thief performed on the cross is the first work, the first fruit which all those who are born of the Spirit perform; which Jesus declared in John 6:29 when he said: This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
the evidence of the work of the Spirit in that thief's life was evident in him crying out to Jesus, and Jesus demonstrating his promise (Jn 6:37) of not casting out any that the Father give to him, who by the Spirit do come to him.
@rofyle have you read the parable of the landowner who at the end of the day paid each and everyone whom he hired to work in his field the same wage as those who had been their all day? for the reward was not in what they had done or not done, but in being employed of such a gracious and merciful Lord. oh the blessing to be found working in the field of him who is the root and branch of Jesse, to glean in the fields of Boaz, where we find both our daily bread and the Bread of Life-our Redeemer.
@HermitintheRain Have you read the parable of Lazarus and the rich man? Do you think those in Hell are able to communicate with Abraham? That is the problem with developing theology through the use of parables. The parable of the landowner doesn't contradict, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace." It's only your interpretation of the parable of the landowner which does this.
@rofyle you have read correctly what i have stated. there is nothing in what i stated that would suggest that salvation is anything but grace. rather the point of what was attempted here was to point to the fact that whatever works are accomplished is all by the work of God himself. whatever works we demonstrate, as James would agree, that proves our faith, are works that are produced by the Holy Spirit working in us.
@rofyle they are works in the same way that the breath that we breathe is ours; which is only ours by the gift of God to give us each and every breath that we breathe. the works that we accomplish which are born of faith; all of it, including that faith, though we may declare it to be our own, is truly only that which is from the Father of lights, from whom flow all good things, without exception. all of which are our own as being made partakers of the inheritance that is found in Christ.
@rofyle all that is Christ's is ours by inheritance, by adoption, by imputation. Christ's faith becomes our faith, by which Christ's righteousness becomes our righteousness. when God declares that the just shall live by faith; while in another passage declares that there is none good, no not one; there must be a means by which we who are nothing but sin, might obtain this life, this faith; for there was ever only one who was ever perfectly just, who could then live by his faith:
@rofyle therefore the only means by which we might be saved is if he who is the Author and finisher of faith should have means by which he might impart his faith unto us, by which we would also be made to be partakers in his righteousness; and thus through his resurrection obtain the lively hope that rests in the work and person, the kinsman Redeemer-Jesus Christ. how will we know if we have this saving faith? if it emulates the life of the Author of it in loving submission to God's will.
Section I.—Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth: not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience . . .
@rofyle Jeremiah 23:6 refers by name he who will be doing the saving: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS with Jeremiah 33:16 speaking of those who will be saved by him being called: The LORD our righteousness. 2 Cor 5:21 speaks of us being made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Pet 1:1 addresses those who have obtained (Greek speaks of that which is by lot chosen of God). there is no way one can have the righteousness that is of Christ w/o also having the faith of Christ.
@rofyle the sign of regeneration is in fact a heart that is enlightened by faith which comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, which the Holy Spirit in his peculiar work does cause us to have ears to hear and a heart to understand. an ability which is altogether impossible without the eyes of faith. it is by this grace-the gift of faith-by which all of the elect are made to cry out to God with the utterance of 'Abba, Father'.
@rofyle where Romans 5 speaks of us having peace with God through Christ it is only to echo and further elaborate what has already been stated in Isaiah 26:12-LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us. The works that are accomplished in us are not by our own hands, but by God through the work of the Holy Spirit applying the blood of Christ to our souls unto justification, by which the same Spirit also leads us unto the path of sanctification.
@rofyle as a child of the Everlasting Father Jesus Christ, as Romans 8 reveals, being made inheritors through Christ, we have all that is Christ by being in Christ. There is nothing of Christ that is not accounted unto us. It is by this standing we find perfect acceptance with the Father. We do nothing, we have nothing, that is not of and by Christ with regards to that which is good, acceptable and perfect according to the will of God.
@rofyle in 1 Pet 1 we are told of the trying of our faith. It is indeed ours as much as Christ is ours, and we are Christ's. that trial is not to prove to God that we have faith; for God knows what faith we have obtained. as with the analogy used there of gold tried by fire which doesn't increase in the quality or quantity of gold through the fire; but rather removes all that which is not of that gold. the trials we face are for us-that we may see how truly remarkable is the gift we have in us
@rofyle that we find that we can sing a hearty amen with Jeremiah when he testifies of the Lord's compassions which fail not, when we wake to every day seeing that they are renewed everyday; that despite the trials, and even through them all, we have learned to say with all the saints before us, that we do, and will indeed wait, trust and believe on the Lord; not by our determined will to do so, but by the everlasting mercy of the Lord to keep us faithful to the end.
@rofyle i repent of nothing of the sort. imputed righteousness is the righteousness of Christ which is accounted to us through faith. imparted righteousness is that by which God through Christ makes us to be partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4). As this letter of Peter is addressed to those who have obtained, (i.e., received by lot according to the election of grace), like precious faith. the faith that i have is not faith that i created or made, but was given to me by God.
@rofyle as to all good things i have that are from the Father of lights is through Christ, by Christ and from Christ; even the faith that i have unto salvation i have by God through Christ, by Christ and from Christ. all that i have that is unto life everlasting is but the gift of God to my soul. there is nothing in me that can be said to be originated by me that would make me acceptable before God. the faith that i have unto the lively hope found in the resurrection of Christ..
@rofyle ..is the first fruit of the Spirit to my soul that causes me daily to cry out to the Lord of glory. it is in fact the anchor of the Lord in me. when Paul speaks of being crucified with Christ...and of it being Christ who lives in him, it is that faith that is present in him which is that part of Christ by which he knows Christ lives in him.
@rofyle Paul had his own version of faith; a faith that was zealous after God, which was based on his own righteousness; a faith that was man-made. but on the day he met the Lord on that Damascus road, that faith died, and the faith that is from Christ was imparted to him, by which he was made partaker of his divine nature, as is with all who have walked after Christ in spirit and truth.
@rofyle many will speak of their faith in Christ which is really not much different than that which the Pharisees exhibited when they crucified the Lord and proceeded to persecute the church. it will be in fact the same whom Jesus in John 16 tells us will think they are serving God when they exile and even kill those that are true disciples of Christ.
@rofyle there is only one faith that has ever, or will ever save anyone; and that is that faith which is created by the Author and finisher of it. that faith that i have is that which God in his mercy has imparted unto me. all that i have i have by Christ. there is nothing that i have that is worth anything apart from Christ. Christ is my bread, Christ is my door, Christ is my life, Christ is my all in all. what i have apart from Christ is but dung and even less than worthless.
@rofyle the greatest of rubbish that is of me is any righteousness that is by me, including any faith that is generated or originated by me. if i repent of anything, i pray, and trust the Lord will continue to grant me such repentance, is that repentance which puts any hope or trust in anything i do, or in anything about me, especially the pride and conceit of righteousness and/or faith originating in me. my trust is in the Lord, who works all that i need in me.
@rofyle that according to the good pleasure of the Lord towards me, that whatever i need i find i have it in him, by him. by the grace of the Lord i will not be as those seven women in Isaiah 4 who wanted to be known after the name of the Lord, but were content in seeking their own bread (life) and their own clothes (righteousness). may it never be that i should find such contentment in my own attainments-be they life, righteousness, and especially faith-the root of it all.
@rofyle technical point: Romans 3:25ff ..διὰ τῆς πίστεως ἐν τῷ αὐτοῦ αἵματι.. translators state that it says "through faith in his blood". but that is not what the Greek is saying here at all. τῆς πίστεως + τῷ αὐτοῦ αἵματι are all nouns with a qualifying preposition 'in' to link them together. a further qualification is revealed in the relationship of these nouns to one another. namely that it first speaks of his faith in the τῆς πίστεως + τῷ αὐτοῦ which..
@rofyle which are all further qualified by the use of these nouns being written in the genitive case which points to them being of or from something; which in this case is clarified by the ἐν + αἵματι which is a preposition denoting direction with αἵματι written inthe dative case revealing from which the noun phrase " the faith of him, or 'his faith'" is originating-that is in his blood. this is further elaborated to in Hebrews where we learn of the blood of Jesus
@rofyle speaking better things than that of Abel (Heb 12:24).
when Rom 3:25 is taken in its proper translation, it doesn't speak of a propitiation being found by faith in his blood; but rather speaks of a propitiation that is the blood of Jesus Christ, that faith that is found there in his blood. my blood, your blood, or no other man's blood, not even Abel's can witness or testify of a faith which is found in the blood of Jesus Christ.
@rofyle early verses in this same passage already established this when it spoke of the righteousness of God that is found in the faith of Jesus Christ. that is that faith which is his faith, which his own blood when it was poured for us, does bear a good report, even the good news, even the gospel of all them that are washed in and by that same precious blood of Jesus Christ. if you receive the blood, you also receive the faith that is found in it.
@rofyle it is not only by this that Jesus presents the atonement to the Father, but it is also by this same blood that the Holy Spirit anoints us, and even baptizes us to be justified through the imputation of the righteousness found in it; but also continually begins to work in us as the work of Holy Spirit unto sanctification imparts unto his righteousness to prepare and to grow us unto that perfect day.
@rofyle therefore do i not only not repent, i proclaim hallelujah to the Lord Jesus Christ whose blood was sufficient, whose blood testifies of that faith that is perfect and holy and alone able to justify any and all whom the Father calls to come to the Son; and do and will so come by the power and work of the Holy Spirit. For it is the blood of Jesus that redeemed me. it is the blood of Jesus which must justify me. the righteous shall live by HIS faith. who are the righteous?
@rofyle God said there is none righteous, no not one. if none of us being righteous, how is it that we think that we have any faith that originates in ourselves that would help us in one iota? there is indeed only one who is righteous-the Holy One of Israel. unless somehow you are first made to be the righteousness of God in him, all the faith in the world will do you no good. but the soul that finds itself regenerated in his righteousness, it would only want that faith which comes from him too.
@rofyle it is your faith as much as it is your righteousness; insomuch that you are made partakers of his divine nature. whereas children of God you are inheritors of all that is from God-his righteousness, his holiness, his life, his way, his truth, etc. it won't be imputed only. For God doesn't intend for us to remain as we are, but that we should not only be imputed righteous, but that we should actually be made to be righteous-thus the impartation, the sanctification that is apart of it all.
@HermitintheRain Again, Catholic BS. I know a lot of modern Calvinists have thoroughly deceived themselves into believing Christ's righteousness is both inputed and imparted (imparted being a Methodist invention), but the Reformers (Turretin, Calvin, Luther) flatly reject this. The greater part of the Puritans do, as well. "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him" - Romans 4:8. No impartation. Imputation only. New birth is not justification.
@rofyle new birth is in fact the first fruit of being justified. that new birth which is actual, is by the very experience impartation. when we meet Christ at his coming our sins are not only going to be covered by the imputation of his righteousness, but there will be no evidence of them by the work of the Holy Spirit transforming us into being his righteousness-impartation. this is the promise God declared through his servant Jeremiah when he spoke of his elect as The LORD our righteousness.
@rofyle it is indeed a blessing to that man whose sin the Lord pardons; equally and of that double portion of that blessing is that same man whom the Lord also causes him to walk in his ways, to put a new heart in him, and to put his Spirit in them, to cause them to walk in his righteousness, to walk in his ways, to be made one with Christ in all his truth.
@rofyle Righteousness shall go before him; and shall set us in the way of his steps. Psalm 85:13
To pull a man out of the sewer and grave of sin is indeed a blessing that cannot be measured. But the Lord has more in mind when he bring his people out of such bondage. Not only has he purposed to forgive them of their sins, but he has equally purposed in it, to also cause them to walk in the beauty of holiness and to know the blessed life of living after godliness and righteousness.
@rofyle and as the loving Everlasting Father that he is; he shall not fail to bring each and everyone of his children up in the ways of his righteousness; such that when they are made perfect at his coming, we will once and for all eternity understand what it truly means to be called after him-The LORD our righteousness. For the Lord who died for our sins, has also been resurrected that we might live in the hope that is his way, his truth and his life-his righteousness, his peace, his love, etc
@rofyle the catholics that you attempt to attribute this to know nothing about it. they are fixed on what they do, what they don't do. what has been declared to you here, and before all the world to see is that what all of God's elect have-the free forgiveness of sins through the justifying blood of Jesus Christ, we also have been given all that pertains to life and godliness by the divine power of Jesus Christ. we take no glory to ourselves in any of it-it is all of Christ
@rofyle for the record I have actually read Calvin's institutes, and there is nothing in what he has written there that is contrary to what has been stated. he may have chosen other forms of expression, but he has stated as much as has already been stated. what they were rejecting was the catholic definition, which cannot be construed in anything i have said to be equivalent to anything catholicism teaches. for you to suggest so is to make a fallacy of equivocation.
@HermitintheRain What does Calvin's Institutes have anything to do with anything? I thought we were discussing MacArthur's denial of the gospel as revealed in Scripture. If you're referring to the Westminster Confession of 1647, you'll notice that the year 1647 is not the year 1536. I have no idea why you're bringing Calvin into this discussion. I really don't. You accuse me of equivocation, but as far as I can tell, you've just given me a straw man.
@rofyle you indicated that the Reformers in which you identified Calvin among them flatly denied it; of which i was pointing out, that in Calvin's Institutes in no way rejects what has been taught by John Wesley; but was rather refuting the Catholic notion of it-especially with regards to justification. John Wesley's use of the word had nothing to do with justification; but was rather in reference to the process of sanctification, which is as vital, and even complimentary to justification.
@rofyle which i have attempted on more than one occassion to clarify. either i have not be articulate enough and/or you have not cared to give a more careful reading of what is actually being stated.
When the Lord indicates through his servant Ezekiel of putting his Spirit in us and causing us to walk in his commandments-it is exactly this truth, which is elaborated on more than one occassion throughout the Old & New Testament-which is what is meant when the term imparted righteousness is used.
@rofyle one could choose other synonymous terms for those whose palate is uncomfortable with such terminology. yet the idea would remain the same. where we find that we have first been justified by the imputation of Christ's righteousness through faith-which is by the propititious blood of Jesus which bears testimony of the faithful obedience, even the holiness of Jesus; further evidence of this reality is displayed in the ongoing work of sanctification.
@rofyle there is nothing in Reformed theology that would suggest that there is justification apart from sanctification. being careful to distinguish each one from another, they are equally careful to indicate that they are inseparable in that there is no sanctification where there is first no justification; nor is there any justification that exists apart from sanctification. all of which are by the grace and work of God to the soul of the elect.
@rofyle justification being the redemptive work by which the elect find peace with God through the perfectly faithful obedience of Christ as the Lamb of God who bore our sins propitiously in his holy righteous blood. the secondary reality of this justification is found in the first act of sanctification-believing in Christ that he has indeed become our substitute for our sin. that act of believing is ongoing, the evidence of being born of the Spirit. for as Romans 8 points out:
@rofyle of how it is impossible for those who are in the flesh to please God. even the act of believing in the flesh cannot please God. the act of believing which is unto salvation must be in fact that which is done in the Spirit. the gift of grace is first and foremost in God giving his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. the ongoing truth of that grace is then revealed in God giving us a heart to believe by the washing of regeneration of the Holy Spirit that causes us to believe.
@HermitintheRain The elect are not saved by regeneration. The elect are saved by justification. That is what you are not getting. You are under the impression that justification is just the first step in the process. No, it is the only step in the process. Regeneration and sanctification are because of justification. Mac believes that if we don't have enough works to show Christ at the last day, then we'll go to Hell even if we've been justified. Do you agree or disagree? Why?
@rofyle show me someone who is justified that is not regenerated? or show me someone who is regenerated that is not justified.
I don't know about Mac's claim as you put it. If that is true, though I have not found evidence of that, than I would disagree with him. If he teaches such then he would be no different than traditional catholicism which teaches a grace + works salvation. but i have not found him to actually be teaching that.
@rofyle you seem to be wanting to stress the order of events. fair enough. Election (the Father being merciful to whom he will be merciful); Propitiation (the Son being the perfect Lamb of God); Calling (the Spirit drawing the elect unto Christ through the preaching of the word); Justification (the Spirit quickening the elect by applying the propitious blood of Jesus which gives faith in Jesus to cry out, "Abba, Father"), Sanctification, Glorification.
@HermitintheRain I am not wanting to stress the order of events. I am wanting to stress the gospel - not by works, but by grace alone. To propitiate means to satisfy. Christ satisfied God's wrath. Rom. 3:25 Justification is not the Spirit quickening the elect! That is regeneration! I have told you time and again you are confusing justification with regeneration. Here now is the proof.
How can the elect be drawn to Christ by the preaching of the Word when they are unable to hear, as Paul Washer says? They are dead in their sins and trespasses and merely corpses (like that of Lazarus prior to his resurrection) and first need to be made alive (regenerated) before they can hear the Gospel. That's putting the cart before the horse, isn't it? OK, so that means the elect must first be saved before they can hear the Gospel in order to be saved.
@lessingtom no real disagreement in anything you have stated. ".. that means the elect must first be saved before..in order to be saved." Though your wording is a little awkward, the sentiment would be accurate. As Paul speaks of having been chosen before the foundation of the world; that choosing of all the elect in that instance did save them even before they existed. the awareness & experience of that salvation is through the hearing of the Gospel by which faith is found in the heart.
Though my wording may be a wee bit awkward, it says exactly what Calvinists believe. Your salvation was consummated before your existence? Really? And the rest's reprobation was also consummated before their existence? You believed before your existence or were you saved the moment you believed? Would you have been lost if you did not believe? I have noticed that most Calvinists know very little about Calvinism. I don't blame them because it is a most confusing doctrine.
@lessingtom we are saved from the foundation of the world by the Lamb of God who became our surety before the world even began. with the Son of God being the surety for those whom he would save, that salvation is guaranteed not to fail. my knowing of my own salvation when i did was but the result of the Son of God effectively fulfilling that promise he made before the world began. When God makes a promise of something being done-one might as well count it being done.
Where in the Bible does it say that you were redeemed from the foundation of the world? Does it mean that those who were not saved from the foundation of the world are irreversibly condemned to eternal punishment in hell. Does it mean that Jesus only died for those who were saved from the foundation of the world?
@lessingtom "..whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Rev 13:8
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 2Tim1:9
@lessingtom Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, WHICH GOD, THAT CANNOT LIE, PROMISED BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN; But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; Titus 1:1-3
Of course God cannot lie but you are implying that He is a liar when He said: "For God so loved the WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Joh 3:16). Are the "WHOSOEVER" only the elect who were supposedly chosen unto salvation before the foundation of the world or ANYONE who BELIEVES? Israel as a nation is called God's elect (Is 45:4; 65:9, 22; Mat 24:31). Are they all saved?
@lessingtom According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Eph 1:4
Context is Eph 1:3-12
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: Eph 1:9
Nowhere in these passages does it say that God's election is unto salvation. God foreknew who would respond to his Gospel before the foundation of the world and chose them to be the recipients of his special blessings. Ephesians 1 describes the blessings God bestows on the saints and is not a dissertation on how to be saved. Paul underscores the blessings that follow one's salvation. Thus he speaks of the inheritance of the already redeemed and not salvation per se.
@lessingtom 2 Thessalonians 2: 13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The salvation spoken of here is not the regeneration of the unbeliever to believer but from believer to the final consummation of his salvation. This will occur at the Rapture when all believers (dead and alive) are going to be resurrected to meet the Lord in the air. The first regeneration (form unbeliever to believer) occurs through faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross; this one, the final consummation, occurs through sanctification of the Spirit.
@lessingtom What makes you say that? (that this is a different salvation). That seems weird...we are saved - as in continual - being saved until glorification. - why speculate like God would elect people to later blessing, but not the earlier? If a person is chosen or elected to "final consummation", then how is it they are not to the initial one in which they are recipients of salvation? i mean - what if a person messed up - and denied Christ but God elected them to later things ....
Absolutely not! Believers are awaiting the day when they will be saved from their present bodies which are prone to sinning. That will occur when they receive their glorified bodies like unto that of Christ at the Rapture. In the meantime they are being sanctified daily for that day.. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 speaks of this salvation THROUGH sanctification. Being born from above is not THROUGH sanctification. You are nor sanctified and then born again.
@lessingtom the fact that i find myself believing is but the evidence of the electing grace of God that was laid upon me before i ever existed. Had God not chosen me from the foundation of the world i would never come to that saving faith which now is my pearl of great price. for all that God has chosen, Christ will find every single one of them, and give unto them also that pearl of great price-saving faith. as Jesus declared himself:
@lessingtom calvinism is not a confusing doctrine. it is an offensive doctrine. it offends the pride of man. it offends the wisdom of man. the key component to all of calvinism rests the essential doctrine: the sovereignty of God. that in being God, he does whatsoever he pleases. and whatever he pleases, whether we comprehend it or not is altogether perfect, good, holy and just. that all his ways are indeed mercy and truth.
And so it pleased God to save you and send others to hell? "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live." (Ezek 18:32). Is He speaking here of the elect only or ANYONE? MacArthur spreads the infamous lie that Jesus died for the elect only. Does that sound like HE has no pleasure in the death of ANYONE? You have a very strange idea of God's sovereignty
@HermitintheRain Calvinism as an assumptive doctrine which claims to know EXACTLY how the sovereignty of God functions. The Bible does say we are saved by his choice, but it also says we that saving isnt appropriated until WE repent and believe. The error of Calvin was to assume that he could define HOW is Sovereign over our freewill. Even the early church fathers and even Paul know "how unfathomable is the Knowledge and Wisdom of God." Calvin and Beza assumed they figured it out.
@HermitintheRain secondly...just because we have a few examples in Scripture of God "causing men to choose a certain action" does not necessarily means that God does this in this fashion every time! That is a huge and unbiblical assumption of Calvinism. What we can know is that WE are responsible for our choices, what we cant grasp is how God's sovereignty exists over that, yet it must since the Bible states it. My reply for anyone who asks..(cont)
@banahdecristoROB both Calvinists and Arminians in their heated debates over the issue of free will have actually missed the obvious: the honest evaluation of our own wills individually. there is no doubt that we have a will within ourselves. whether one believes in free will or not, the basic question that fails to be addressed is: what shapes that will? when asked in everyday conversation about why we choose a particular path in life-be it mundane or profound-our answers will vary..
@banahdecristoROB (2) what is more, whatever we attribute towards us causing to choose whatever it is we choose, more often than not the response is less than complete to indicate all that went into our making that choice. often times the most honest answer will simply be "I don't know". all that we will be able to answer is that at that moment our will was inclined unto that choice.
@banahdecristoROB (3) for the born again there will be a humbling enlightenment by the Holy Spirit as to the nature of who they are. such an enlightenment that they will be made to confess the utter wretchedness of their being. that their wills in the mix of that wretchedness, even on its 'best' day was ever only inclined to sin. that unless God in his mercy had given him a heart of repentance, that he would still to this day be inclined only to sin-and willfully so.
@banahdecristoROB (4) if left to ourselves, it wouldn't be our choice that would be the cause of condemnation, (though this would in no way help in the matter), the cause of condemnation is the state of our heart (which governs the will of man) that is utterly depraved and has nothing but enmity against God. the mercy of the Lord is in the fact that God sends his Spirit to us to give us a new heart, to give us a new spirit, to cause us to walk in his ways.
@banahdecristoROB (5) as to the sovereignty of God in it all a passage in Psalms sheds much light on it:
Do good, O LORD, unto those that be good, and to them that are upright in their hearts. As for such as turn aside unto their crooked ways, the LORD shall lead them forth with the workers of iniquity: but peace shall be upon Israel. Psalm 125:4-5
If another Psalm, which is actually reiterated in Romans 3, declares there is none righteous, none that seek after God; who then...
@banahdecristoROB (6) who then are these that do good, that are upright in their hearts? if all of us have gone astray; among which none of us have sought after God, to know him, to understand his ways; but rather, as Isaiah tells us, we have excelled only in inquity and learned to drink it up as water; something had to change these that do good and be upright in heart to make them that way. The Holy Spirit indeed does tell us how-that he is the one who makes the change.
@banahdecristoROB (7) it is the Holy Spirit according to his peculiar work he does lead those who are foreknown by God before the foundation of the world, who as Paul summarizes:
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Rom 8:29-30
@banahdecristoROB (8) the details of that calling is indeed peculiar. for everyone of God's elect there is sure to be as many varied testimonies on how the Holy Spirit brought them to the saving knowledge and faith in Jesus Christ. truth be told: as detailed and as insightful as each and one of these testimonies might be; they wouldn't know the half of how the Holy Spirit brought them to that day where the psalmist declared: "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power" (Ps 110:3a)
@banahdecristoROB (9) the wonder of God's grace in bringing anyone to be saved is in how he is able to take a people who are altogether opposed to God and to bring them to that precious day when they go from casting scorn and derision at Christ (just like that thief on the cross) to then suddenly finding one's own soul pleading for his mercy; while others who hang on their own cross remain obstinate and hard hearted to the grave.
@banahdecristoROB (10) man's will if left free to do whatever it wants, can and will only do what is in the nature of his heart. if that heart is the heart of an unregenerate sinner, it can and will only do that which is sin; whose ways will be anything but upright-and it will do so willingly. the gardener who cuts a tree down because it produces only bad fruit; has done no wrong; though the tree by its very sick nature was unable to do anything else.
@banahdecristoROB (11) yet if this gardner has a forest of sickly trees, and out of the desire of his own heart elects to give attention to some to save them, while passing others to be destroyed; he still has done no wrong in so choosing. we all who have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God; if God should so choose, as he indicates on numerous occassions that he has, to save some, and pass others by, his righteousness remains holy and true all the while.
@banahdecristoROB (12) that remnant, that elect will have no cause for glorying in themselves to their salvation; for they will know without any doubt that their salvation from beginning to end had every bit to do with what Paul called the election of grace. that it was entirely God's choosing them that has caused them to be saved, and nothing in themselves. that they were just as wretched and as deserving of hell-maybe even more so-as the one that was passed by.
@banahdecristoROB 1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
why am i not in hell already? not only was i as those that he just finished saying shall not inherit the kingdom of God, i know i was far worse than many of the people i have known in my own life? why should i believe unto salvation? i am not smarter than them. my own sins proved my lack of will power to do good
@banahdecristoROB (14) many of my own friends sat and heard the same gospel messages that i heard. for years i heard the gospel and gave lip service to it while my heart spent its time pursuing the pleasures of the flesh, promoting the pride of life, lusting after everything my eyes could see. most my friends were less ambitious towards sin; whereas i should have been in hell a long time before any of them, and in the darkest recesses of it; God had another purpose-to call me, to justify me, etc
@banahdecristoROB (15) i didn't wake up one morning and from an act of my free will suddenly change my heart and say, "I think I will believe in Jesus and be saved." but i did find my life being slowly turned upside down; everything happening contrary to my 'free will'. i found my heart getting more angry with God, (yes, i believed in God-just didn't want to have anything to do with him). over a long 12+ years my life with all of my ambitious dreams came crashing down on all sides.
@banahdecristoROB (16) then as is told in Hosea and in Psalm 107, when i was at my witts end, and in the desolation of my life, God the Holy Spirit began to visit me in a way that I had never known before. He began to speak comfortably to my heart of the beauty of God's Son; of his holiness, of his righteousness; of his power; and of his cross. And in the day of his power, I was broken like I had never been broken before, or since. My pride was destroyed. I was made to be humble before him.
@banahdecristoROB (17) in that humility, i found a hope i never knew existed-though i had heard the gospel for 30+ years since my childhood. when all my sins, and the devil's accusations against me, were screaming how God could never love a sinner like me; one so rebellious, so backslidden, so apostate as me; the Father's grace proved sufficient even for me, as the Holy Spirit flooded my soul, by calling to my remembrance passages of Scripture of his promise and power to love me.
@banahdecristoROB (18) people argue about having the choice to believe. i don't know what they are talking about. in that moment of being renewed unto the Lord, choice was a byproduct, not a cause. i didn't choose to believe and then believe. the reality was that i believed, and found my soul absolutely rejoicing at the reality of belief i was finding present in my soul. was i willing? absolutely. what i found in my soul was the greatest gift i have ever received-faith in Jesus Christ.
@banahdecristoROB (19) the Holy Spirit, by his peculiar working made me thirsty and hungry for his righteousness. and according to his wisdom and timing, when faith filled my heart, it was that spring of living water that satisfied by soul. I didn't ask for it. but when i first tasted it, i couldn't think of anything else but to ask for more and more. it was and is that pearl of great price that i found in my soul that the Holy Spirit put there. and i find i am perfectly willing indeed.
@HermitintheRain (cont) How can God hold a man responsible for an act freely chosen if God causes him to cwant to choose it or fails to cause him to choose the good which he is uncapable of choosing? The answer is as Paul says...It must truly your free choice to do either. THey ask then..."How does that reconcile with God's sovereignty?" Answer: The same way FORE-knowledge reconciles with God not being limited to time. It is an anthropomorphism of an unknowable and undefinable attribute of God.
@banahdecristoROB the use of the word foreknowledge is not rightly meant to mean God seeing down the corridors of time, from his position in eternity, knowing who would choose him. the foreknowledge spoken of here is that kind of knowledge which is the same kind of knowledge which David speaks about of God knowing him before he was born, or of Mary when she speaks to Gabriel of not knowing a man, or as is often spoken of a women and man knowing one another intimately.
@banahdecristoROB (2) When Peter speaks of being foreknown by God, he is speaking of that intimacy which God had for his elect before the world began in the hidden counsel of his being.
@HermitintheRain Wow...a long list of typical Calvinistic Interpretations of verses that are not supported by either the text or elsewhere. As I said at the beginning...you assume to know how God CAUSES us to IRRESISTIBLY choose him. Which is nowhere stated in Scripture and if it was true, then dont you think God would have made a much clearer reference to it than the poetic Psalms which as every scholar knows is difficult to stretch into foundations for doctrines? (Not to change the subject)...
@HermitintheRain (cont) but in all your 19 supports of TULIP you have done no more than the JWs do...you have your doctrine all figured out, then you find verses that could possibly be interpreted to mean what you want them to mean, even though the verses dont explicitly say what you say that do. i.e. Foreknowledge definition is not having intimacy with a woman...yes it is the same greek word but any greek scholar knows that the context, not the other uses defines its meaning. (cont)
@HermitintheRain "Knowing" a man is way to say "having sex with" without using the more explicit term. That is like saying that since the word "tapping" is used of "having sex" in today's language, then hitting a hammer lightly is an intimate act. You cant tie foreknowledge to an ancient slang use of the word "konosko" as its meaning as JMac has done and other Reformist continue to do. How God is sovereign over our free will is unknowable but because of God's eternal grace, we all have a choice.
@lessingtom when Habakkuk was approached by God to tell him of how he would raise up the Babylonians-an evil wicked people-to be the rod of judgment against his people; he could not comprehend how God could do this. when God divided the nation of Israel into 2 kingdoms, he gave the northern tribes to a man whose wickedness would only further curse them unto their being taken into captivity.
@lessingtom when God purposed to kill Ahab, he took counsel, and gave authority to an evil spirit to deceive Ahab through the work of lying prophets. Paul reveals that there would be those whom God would send a strong delusion that they might believe a lie and be delivered over to destruction. of all the thrones that have been in this world; there has ever been only one throne that has ever mattered: the throne of God upon which all life lives or dies.
Yep! Why does God send a strong delusion? " . . . because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." Calvinists' doctrine of electoral salvation is not the truth and therefore they believe a delusion. Is this delusion a God sent? You said it!
@lessingtom the sun doesn't rise unless God says so. the rain will only fall when and where the Lord commands it to fall. what God commands happens. what God promises never fails. when from his throne before the foundation of the world when God purposed to make a people for himself, every soul of that people, was already existing in the mind of God; and as such would exist, shall exist, because he who began such a work would perfect it to the very last soul.
God is omniscient. Yes of course, and what He promises never fails. One of God's most wonderful promises is: "And it shall come to pass, that WHOSOEVER shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Act 2:21). Calvinists have a serious semantic problem. They don't know what WHOSOEVER means. They think it means "ELECT."
@lessingtom one of my favorite verses that declares this so beautifully:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 8-10
'his workmanship'=(Greek from which we get the word poem).
We are the poem of Jesus who is also called The Word of God.
@lessingtom when and where and under what circumstance each and everyone of the elect knows it is a matter of innumerable testimonies of how God brought the saving power of the gospel-the sword of the Spirit-to them to enlighten their minds, to regenerate their hearts, to quicken their spirit. the salvation was their's from the foundation of the world, though the experience and awarenss of it may have not occured for thousands of years into creation, or for decades in their own lives.
The "T" in TULIP as you know stands for Total Depravity which according to Calvinists equals total inability. That's why Calvinists like Washer, MacArthur and Driscoll constantly refer to Lazarus as a metaphor of regeneration. Man is a corpse or dead bones which needs to be made alive supernaturally before he can believe the Gospel. It cannot possibly be that because Lazarus was already a saved man and in Paradise with Abraham when Jesus resurrected him from amongst the dead.
J MacArthur's kind of justification is the kind the Pharisees in the time of Jesus practised. They too believed that their law abiding lifestyles secured for them eternal life. It is called a works salvation. MacArthur can't be saved when he proclaims a Roman Catholic kind of works salvation.
@rofyle No, I have not read Horton's book yet, but I put it on my shortlist to buy next Amazon book order.
Myself, Keith, and anyone else who you say is for MacArthur is not standing behind MacArthur just because he is Jmac, we are standing behind his views here because like Keith said, this is the historical Protestant view on what the fruits of sanctification look like in a believers life.
Surely, you are not going to say that JMac is espousing a works based faith here.
God help us if there's a reformed revival.
spankula123 1 week ago
Christianity and Islamism are both violent religions that have expanded their dominions inmensely due to their use of military institutions. These two religions wouldnt be so powerful and hold in its grip the millions of people, acres and dollars they now have if it wasnt for the violent methods they put in effect for invading, manipulating and plundering other cultures. The word respect is not in their vocabulary in regards to other's peoples rigth to profess any beleif they want.
otirudam 1 week ago
@otirudam False. Islam, as you know, is built on violence. It would be honorable to murder your children if they listen to rock, whereas a Christian would pray for their child. How is that the same? Before you default to "the crusades!" read up and know something about them. They were far from Christians going out to kill muslims.
spankula123 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
*sigh* there's always a gigantic group of retards that got suckered into a pyramid scheme and they may take a loss in money, they don't lose it all. There are also a bunch of people that have imaginary friends. most have to see a psychiatrist. There are also people that believe everything they read in books. Even a further step, there are people that also stand on the corner yelling crazy things :usually bums:. But once they say "I'm christian" all their delusions gain validity?
x420xColtonx420x 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Overall John Mac is waving the red flag over compromise. He believes the YRR is compromising to bring in rock and roll worship style, compromising to dress sloppy, compromising to drink, compromising to multi-church video the senior pastor, compromising to pattern themselves after arminian evangelicals, compromising to associate with heterodox leaders, compromising to open up conferences to known compromisers of faith and practice. He's saying the YRR is immature, lacking discerning.
bloodgrace1 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
What Im hearing is the young leadership of reformed teaching is just too scruffy, its unpolished, its too culturally attached and as such do not understand the institutional-calvinism which John is a part of. John Mac wants more than correct doctrine, he wants correct mannerism (as he defines it) for the YRR leaders. His concern is, the YRR is so worldly they will backslide into arminian practice as quickly as they left arminian doctrine.
Time will tell.
bloodgrace1 3 weeks ago
yeah i remember when MacArthur had a reformed ecclesiology... not!
fenderstrt4 1 month ago
Does MacArthur think that his ecclesiology is reformed? It isn't. He distinguishes between Israel and the Church and he does not baptize infants. There are many other things also. He is dispensational in his ecclesiology, not reformed.
McDonnelMark 1 month ago
How is it that wearing blue jeans and drinking beer is Arminianism? I'm a Calvinist, but I get concerned when Calvinism and Arminianism are simply defined as not only polar opposites, but the only two choices. It starts to sound like MacArthur is saying that what I believe is Calvinism and everything else is Arminianism. What a shallow view of theology and the Scriptures.
McDonnelMark 2 months ago
@McDonnelMark "a bunch of young guys" "holes in jeans" "beer in hand" Macarthur seems like he is focusing a lot at outward appearance. Jesus was young. He didn't wear suites and ties. and he turned water into wine. I have a feeling John would have called him an Arminian too and may not have liked him either.
IDCreation1 1 month ago
"Does it bother you that they use the name 'grace'? No, it bothers me that they use the word 'church.'" LOL
mykola1986 2 months ago
Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee.
Search me, o God, and know my heart; try me and know my thoughts. And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
mitchnicholscpa 3 months ago
Pick whatever flavor of gospel and Jesus that works for you I guess. Sad.
Before you lemmings attack me, take a hard look inside your heart. How is your quiet fellowship with the Lord going, in the still time when no one is watching and the loud music stops. How long do you meditate on His word? Sit at His feet? Inch deep I bet. These guys are angels of light. Beware !!!
Wherein can a young man cleanse his ways? By taking heed according to thy word. Thy word have I hid in my heart that I m
mitchnicholscpa 3 months ago
Having been in Driscoll's church for six months, where everything is about Driscoll as "solo Driscoll", not "solo scriptura", I agree completely with Dr. McArthur. I went to church and a ear deafening hard rock concert broke out.
What next? Todd Bentley at the next Desiring God conference? Mr. Piper, please change the name of your conference to "Pleasing the Times" Conference, for the sake of honesty. And T4G and Gospel Coalition? Pick whatever flavor of gospel and Jesus that works for you
mitchnicholscpa 3 months ago 2
Did John just say that Arminian theology is the reason some Christians curse and watch dirty movies?
murrayv08 3 months ago
Love Dr. MacArthur - but in the reformed circles I am discipled and grow - we are not doing anything that he describes as "problems". It may be more beautiful and alive than he realizes. He may see a small sample size of YRR that he's concerned about.
PSUIVERSON 3 months ago
Great respect for this man
12343590 3 months ago
There is no yes, it does. There is only, the text says what the text says. It is not I who am using poor hermeneutics. "These are written for you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you know that you have eternal life" DOES NOT APPEAR IN 1 JOHN! Please stop reading into the text, and then accusing me of reading into it. As is obvious, it is not I who am reading into the text. I guess verses 20 and 21 of chapter 2 mean nothing to you, do they.
rofyle 4 months ago
Cant we do as Jesus, James, Peter and Paul commanded and love one another (Christians who hold to the essentials)? The topic should stay a theological discussion since in practice to us who dont know the heart, there are only two people in the world. Those following Jesus and those who are not...if they arent (Saved or not saved) the message is the same...repent, confess, and get right with God then obey. If they are following Jesus, then we embrace and accept them as brothers. Jesus is Central.
banahdecristoROB 4 months ago
Yet God can only be "just" if we each have the freedom to choose to accept or reject him. This doesnt automatically negate "the security of the believer" for once I have chosen God, I find that he also has chosen me and am secure in HIS power. Nor does it (As Arminius speculated) mean we can choose to lose our salvation either, but that's contrary to many verses that show us secure. The fact remains, for God to be "JUST" we must each have a choice (from God) & the ability to choose God or not.
banahdecristoROB 4 months ago
the way we practice our free will is to choose. The second (God being sovereign is UNKNOWABLE in practice yet Reformist continualy assert that they know HOW God is sovereign in practice...HE MAKES US WANT to do good. This is the great assumption of Calvin-Reformed Theology which doesnt work out (as Beza proves) when you try to say that this is ALWAYS "How" God is sovereign over our freewill. You find yourself blaming God for Adam's sin and thus all of mankind's. This is extra-biblical theology.
banahdecristoROB 4 months ago
Following the logic of Calvin, Beza...his greatest student, came to the conclusion that God caused Adam to sin. This was the straw that broke another student's back...Arminius who said, Wait a second, if God CAUSED Adam to sin, then when can man be held responsible for his sin? This is the dilema which has been passed on by reformists for centuries now. Man must be somehow responsible for his actions while God must somehow be sovereign. The first is clearly stated and defined in practice. (cont)
banahdecristoROB 4 months ago
Or Reformed soteriology but baptist ecclessiogy and dispensational eschatology , pastor Macarthur is doing the same he is not a real reformed pastor like presbiterians o dutch reformed...
arturin 4 months ago
The origin of this huge problem, men teaching and doing what they want in the name of Christianity, is Calvinism. They believe they are saved no matter how far they drift away from the true gospel of Jesus Christ. How do you bring them back when they are totally deceived in what they believe. They do not believe that without holiness no man shall see the Lord.
aaa4all2000 4 months ago
max2right 5 months ago
Of whom is John MacArthur speaking? . . . Mark Driscoll??? If he is is then we should ask ourselves why the reformed theologians are starting to fight amongst each other.
That's right Mac, blame the Arminians for the unholy lifestyles of your reformed buddies. That's exactly what Adam and Eve did - blame someone else for your own sins. Or is is called the Pharisaic prayer: "Oh thank you Lord for I am not a sinner like the Armenian publicans. They are wretched reprobates." Shame on you Mac.
lessingtom 5 months ago
Wow...well said Pastor MacArthur...great wisdom, great insight, and sound foresight.
youthleadermgf 5 months ago
First I've heard John MacArthur say something critical regarding John Piper/Rick Warren.
Finally!
Good for you, Dr. MacArthur.
theologymattrz 5 months ago
Christianity should go back to the doctrine of Thomas Muntzer and the German Peasants' Revolt.
AndrewMann552 5 months ago
This is a good advice. Thanks Pastor John MacArthur.
moisescho 5 months ago
Our good works come from faith in Christ. Our good works do not produce a faith in Christ.
whatthehellbook . com
alyssafaithbaer 5 months ago
Pretty sad
gnjacs 5 months ago
@gnjacs Thank you for sharing.
yeshua4U 5 months ago
True and Good.... but John need not lump all Young Reformed in the same boat. I, for instance do not fit any of the characteristics that John name. I do believe in sanctification, holiness, shepherding the flock, discipline, and modesty to say the least. a
Just saying...lol but I love my brother John though, he is so sound. I thank God for him... Shalom Shalom...
onemanofgod 5 months ago
Please address the argument.
Mac loves to play the justification only gospel card, because in his view justification is incomplete. He works to guilt trip us into doing more for God. So it's not about you, according to him, it's about God, but oh by the way, have you done enough for God? Because if you haven't, then you're going to Hell, even if you've been justified. Hebrews 10:1-2. You should learn it. What do my works secure? Nothing! And anyone who denies this denies Christ.
rofyle 6 months ago
lol. What Reformed revival?! Mac's reformation is a perversion of the Gospel of Grace. He's right about absorbing the culture, but then again, Satan is right about God being one too.
rofyle 6 months ago
@rofyle Easy believism is a perversion of the Gospel of grace that Paul condemned in Romans 8:13 and which Revelation 2 condemns regarding the Niccolatains. Lordship is the Gospel of grace since by grace you are granted regeneration, faith, justification and sanctification - submission to God in all of it - all by grace. I think the easy believists don't understand depravity or regeneration or the nature of saving faith; what a person who exercises saving faith looks like.
KeithTruth 6 months ago
@KeithTruth Catch the false dichotomy? If you're not for MacArthur, then you must be an easy believist. It's obvious you have no other choice. Or is it?
Why is it the Mac never references the Haldanes, Gill, Owen?
I'm not an advocate of Zane Hodges. The Bible says believe, and you continue to believe or you never believed to begin with. Mac says you might have been justified, but unless you work, you're lost. Hodges and Mac are both false
rofyle 6 months ago
@rofyle MacArthur quotes Gill on pp. 265-66 in the Gospel According to Jesus. He quotes Gill's work A Body of Divinity where Gill affirms the nature of the regenerated individual who has converted and is being sanctified. And Gill agrees with MacArthur. This is the historic Protestant position. It is what the Bible teaches. Neither Mac nor other Lordship writers say unless you work you're lost. They say those who cease to work, if they are truly justified, will be chastised and put back on track
KeithTruth 6 months ago
@KeithTruth "Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny" - J MacArthur, Hard to Believe, p. 93
What works did the thief on the cross perform?
rofyle 5 months ago
@rofyle That's about final salvation i.e., glorification which is true. "Rom. 8:13 if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." He's not talking about forensic justification which is by a repentant faith or trust in Jesus. The thief was justified by repentant faith and didn't have a chance to show his faith by his life like everyone else does. Everyone else is ordered to show their faith by their works James 2:18
KeithTruth 5 months ago
@KeithTruth Yes, he is talking about forensic justification. I would explain here, but just plain not enough space to do so. Won't leave you empty handed though. See Robert Haldane's commentary on Romans 8. You can read it online. Just "Google Robert Haldane Commentary on Romans online"
rofyle 5 months ago
@rofyle living a life in obedience and service to Christ is the result of salvation, not the cause of it. the washing of regeneration by the Holy Spirit with the blood of Jesus Christ is salvation. the soul that is justified in Christ's blood by the power of the Holy Spirit will exhibit a life that is being consecrated unto a life of holiness and to walking after the righteousness that is Jesus Christ, who as Jeremiah put it is THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle the fruit are the evidence of this work of the Holy Spirit. it is afterall so named the fruit of the Spirit, not the fruit of man. men have over the centuries made great efforts at counterfeiting the fruit of the Spirit. but God knows which fruit is his. it is the Vine that is Jesus Christ himself, through the Holy Spirit that produces fruit. the branch, which we are, does not of itself produce any fruit.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle the works which the thief performed on the cross is the first work, the first fruit which all those who are born of the Spirit perform; which Jesus declared in John 6:29 when he said: This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
the evidence of the work of the Spirit in that thief's life was evident in him crying out to Jesus, and Jesus demonstrating his promise (Jn 6:37) of not casting out any that the Father give to him, who by the Spirit do come to him.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle have you read the parable of the landowner who at the end of the day paid each and everyone whom he hired to work in his field the same wage as those who had been their all day? for the reward was not in what they had done or not done, but in being employed of such a gracious and merciful Lord. oh the blessing to be found working in the field of him who is the root and branch of Jesse, to glean in the fields of Boaz, where we find both our daily bread and the Bread of Life-our Redeemer.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain Have you read the parable of Lazarus and the rich man? Do you think those in Hell are able to communicate with Abraham? That is the problem with developing theology through the use of parables. The parable of the landowner doesn't contradict, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace." It's only your interpretation of the parable of the landowner which does this.
rofyle 5 months ago
@rofyle you have read correctly what i have stated. there is nothing in what i stated that would suggest that salvation is anything but grace. rather the point of what was attempted here was to point to the fact that whatever works are accomplished is all by the work of God himself. whatever works we demonstrate, as James would agree, that proves our faith, are works that are produced by the Holy Spirit working in us.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle they are works in the same way that the breath that we breathe is ours; which is only ours by the gift of God to give us each and every breath that we breathe. the works that we accomplish which are born of faith; all of it, including that faith, though we may declare it to be our own, is truly only that which is from the Father of lights, from whom flow all good things, without exception. all of which are our own as being made partakers of the inheritance that is found in Christ.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle all that is Christ's is ours by inheritance, by adoption, by imputation. Christ's faith becomes our faith, by which Christ's righteousness becomes our righteousness. when God declares that the just shall live by faith; while in another passage declares that there is none good, no not one; there must be a means by which we who are nothing but sin, might obtain this life, this faith; for there was ever only one who was ever perfectly just, who could then live by his faith:
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle therefore the only means by which we might be saved is if he who is the Author and finisher of faith should have means by which he might impart his faith unto us, by which we would also be made to be partakers in his righteousness; and thus through his resurrection obtain the lively hope that rests in the work and person, the kinsman Redeemer-Jesus Christ. how will we know if we have this saving faith? if it emulates the life of the Author of it in loving submission to God's will.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain That's antiChrist, Catholic horsecrap. .
Westminster Confession of Faith, Chaper XI.
Section I.—Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth: not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience . . .
rofyle 5 months ago
@rofyle Jeremiah 23:6 refers by name he who will be doing the saving: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS with Jeremiah 33:16 speaking of those who will be saved by him being called: The LORD our righteousness. 2 Cor 5:21 speaks of us being made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Pet 1:1 addresses those who have obtained (Greek speaks of that which is by lot chosen of God). there is no way one can have the righteousness that is of Christ w/o also having the faith of Christ.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle the sign of regeneration is in fact a heart that is enlightened by faith which comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, which the Holy Spirit in his peculiar work does cause us to have ears to hear and a heart to understand. an ability which is altogether impossible without the eyes of faith. it is by this grace-the gift of faith-by which all of the elect are made to cry out to God with the utterance of 'Abba, Father'.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle where Romans 5 speaks of us having peace with God through Christ it is only to echo and further elaborate what has already been stated in Isaiah 26:12-LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us. The works that are accomplished in us are not by our own hands, but by God through the work of the Holy Spirit applying the blood of Christ to our souls unto justification, by which the same Spirit also leads us unto the path of sanctification.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle as a child of the Everlasting Father Jesus Christ, as Romans 8 reveals, being made inheritors through Christ, we have all that is Christ by being in Christ. There is nothing of Christ that is not accounted unto us. It is by this standing we find perfect acceptance with the Father. We do nothing, we have nothing, that is not of and by Christ with regards to that which is good, acceptable and perfect according to the will of God.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle in 1 Pet 1 we are told of the trying of our faith. It is indeed ours as much as Christ is ours, and we are Christ's. that trial is not to prove to God that we have faith; for God knows what faith we have obtained. as with the analogy used there of gold tried by fire which doesn't increase in the quality or quantity of gold through the fire; but rather removes all that which is not of that gold. the trials we face are for us-that we may see how truly remarkable is the gift we have in us
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle that we find that we can sing a hearty amen with Jeremiah when he testifies of the Lord's compassions which fail not, when we wake to every day seeing that they are renewed everyday; that despite the trials, and even through them all, we have learned to say with all the saints before us, that we do, and will indeed wait, trust and believe on the Lord; not by our determined will to do so, but by the everlasting mercy of the Lord to keep us faithful to the end.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain Then you repent of the idea that Christ imparts His faith to us, and of the idea that we are justified by His faith?
rofyle 5 months ago
@rofyle i repent of nothing of the sort. imputed righteousness is the righteousness of Christ which is accounted to us through faith. imparted righteousness is that by which God through Christ makes us to be partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4). As this letter of Peter is addressed to those who have obtained, (i.e., received by lot according to the election of grace), like precious faith. the faith that i have is not faith that i created or made, but was given to me by God.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle as to all good things i have that are from the Father of lights is through Christ, by Christ and from Christ; even the faith that i have unto salvation i have by God through Christ, by Christ and from Christ. all that i have that is unto life everlasting is but the gift of God to my soul. there is nothing in me that can be said to be originated by me that would make me acceptable before God. the faith that i have unto the lively hope found in the resurrection of Christ..
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle ..is the first fruit of the Spirit to my soul that causes me daily to cry out to the Lord of glory. it is in fact the anchor of the Lord in me. when Paul speaks of being crucified with Christ...and of it being Christ who lives in him, it is that faith that is present in him which is that part of Christ by which he knows Christ lives in him.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle Paul had his own version of faith; a faith that was zealous after God, which was based on his own righteousness; a faith that was man-made. but on the day he met the Lord on that Damascus road, that faith died, and the faith that is from Christ was imparted to him, by which he was made partaker of his divine nature, as is with all who have walked after Christ in spirit and truth.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle many will speak of their faith in Christ which is really not much different than that which the Pharisees exhibited when they crucified the Lord and proceeded to persecute the church. it will be in fact the same whom Jesus in John 16 tells us will think they are serving God when they exile and even kill those that are true disciples of Christ.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle there is only one faith that has ever, or will ever save anyone; and that is that faith which is created by the Author and finisher of it. that faith that i have is that which God in his mercy has imparted unto me. all that i have i have by Christ. there is nothing that i have that is worth anything apart from Christ. Christ is my bread, Christ is my door, Christ is my life, Christ is my all in all. what i have apart from Christ is but dung and even less than worthless.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle the greatest of rubbish that is of me is any righteousness that is by me, including any faith that is generated or originated by me. if i repent of anything, i pray, and trust the Lord will continue to grant me such repentance, is that repentance which puts any hope or trust in anything i do, or in anything about me, especially the pride and conceit of righteousness and/or faith originating in me. my trust is in the Lord, who works all that i need in me.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle that according to the good pleasure of the Lord towards me, that whatever i need i find i have it in him, by him. by the grace of the Lord i will not be as those seven women in Isaiah 4 who wanted to be known after the name of the Lord, but were content in seeking their own bread (life) and their own clothes (righteousness). may it never be that i should find such contentment in my own attainments-be they life, righteousness, and especially faith-the root of it all.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle technical point: Romans 3:25ff ..διὰ τῆς πίστεως ἐν τῷ αὐτοῦ αἵματι.. translators state that it says "through faith in his blood". but that is not what the Greek is saying here at all. τῆς πίστεως + τῷ αὐτοῦ αἵματι are all nouns with a qualifying preposition 'in' to link them together. a further qualification is revealed in the relationship of these nouns to one another. namely that it first speaks of his faith in the τῆς πίστεως + τῷ αὐτοῦ which..
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle which are all further qualified by the use of these nouns being written in the genitive case which points to them being of or from something; which in this case is clarified by the ἐν + αἵματι which is a preposition denoting direction with αἵματι written inthe dative case revealing from which the noun phrase " the faith of him, or 'his faith'" is originating-that is in his blood. this is further elaborated to in Hebrews where we learn of the blood of Jesus
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle speaking better things than that of Abel (Heb 12:24).
when Rom 3:25 is taken in its proper translation, it doesn't speak of a propitiation being found by faith in his blood; but rather speaks of a propitiation that is the blood of Jesus Christ, that faith that is found there in his blood. my blood, your blood, or no other man's blood, not even Abel's can witness or testify of a faith which is found in the blood of Jesus Christ.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle early verses in this same passage already established this when it spoke of the righteousness of God that is found in the faith of Jesus Christ. that is that faith which is his faith, which his own blood when it was poured for us, does bear a good report, even the good news, even the gospel of all them that are washed in and by that same precious blood of Jesus Christ. if you receive the blood, you also receive the faith that is found in it.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle it is not only by this that Jesus presents the atonement to the Father, but it is also by this same blood that the Holy Spirit anoints us, and even baptizes us to be justified through the imputation of the righteousness found in it; but also continually begins to work in us as the work of Holy Spirit unto sanctification imparts unto his righteousness to prepare and to grow us unto that perfect day.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle therefore do i not only not repent, i proclaim hallelujah to the Lord Jesus Christ whose blood was sufficient, whose blood testifies of that faith that is perfect and holy and alone able to justify any and all whom the Father calls to come to the Son; and do and will so come by the power and work of the Holy Spirit. For it is the blood of Jesus that redeemed me. it is the blood of Jesus which must justify me. the righteous shall live by HIS faith. who are the righteous?
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle God said there is none righteous, no not one. if none of us being righteous, how is it that we think that we have any faith that originates in ourselves that would help us in one iota? there is indeed only one who is righteous-the Holy One of Israel. unless somehow you are first made to be the righteousness of God in him, all the faith in the world will do you no good. but the soul that finds itself regenerated in his righteousness, it would only want that faith which comes from him too.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle it is your faith as much as it is your righteousness; insomuch that you are made partakers of his divine nature. whereas children of God you are inheritors of all that is from God-his righteousness, his holiness, his life, his way, his truth, etc. it won't be imputed only. For God doesn't intend for us to remain as we are, but that we should not only be imputed righteous, but that we should actually be made to be righteous-thus the impartation, the sanctification that is apart of it all.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain Again, Catholic BS. I know a lot of modern Calvinists have thoroughly deceived themselves into believing Christ's righteousness is both inputed and imparted (imparted being a Methodist invention), but the Reformers (Turretin, Calvin, Luther) flatly reject this. The greater part of the Puritans do, as well. "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him" - Romans 4:8. No impartation. Imputation only. New birth is not justification.
rofyle 5 months ago
@rofyle new birth is in fact the first fruit of being justified. that new birth which is actual, is by the very experience impartation. when we meet Christ at his coming our sins are not only going to be covered by the imputation of his righteousness, but there will be no evidence of them by the work of the Holy Spirit transforming us into being his righteousness-impartation. this is the promise God declared through his servant Jeremiah when he spoke of his elect as The LORD our righteousness.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle it is indeed a blessing to that man whose sin the Lord pardons; equally and of that double portion of that blessing is that same man whom the Lord also causes him to walk in his ways, to put a new heart in him, and to put his Spirit in them, to cause them to walk in his righteousness, to walk in his ways, to be made one with Christ in all his truth.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle Righteousness shall go before him; and shall set us in the way of his steps. Psalm 85:13
To pull a man out of the sewer and grave of sin is indeed a blessing that cannot be measured. But the Lord has more in mind when he bring his people out of such bondage. Not only has he purposed to forgive them of their sins, but he has equally purposed in it, to also cause them to walk in the beauty of holiness and to know the blessed life of living after godliness and righteousness.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle and as the loving Everlasting Father that he is; he shall not fail to bring each and everyone of his children up in the ways of his righteousness; such that when they are made perfect at his coming, we will once and for all eternity understand what it truly means to be called after him-The LORD our righteousness. For the Lord who died for our sins, has also been resurrected that we might live in the hope that is his way, his truth and his life-his righteousness, his peace, his love, etc
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle the catholics that you attempt to attribute this to know nothing about it. they are fixed on what they do, what they don't do. what has been declared to you here, and before all the world to see is that what all of God's elect have-the free forgiveness of sins through the justifying blood of Jesus Christ, we also have been given all that pertains to life and godliness by the divine power of Jesus Christ. we take no glory to ourselves in any of it-it is all of Christ
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle for the record I have actually read Calvin's institutes, and there is nothing in what he has written there that is contrary to what has been stated. he may have chosen other forms of expression, but he has stated as much as has already been stated. what they were rejecting was the catholic definition, which cannot be construed in anything i have said to be equivalent to anything catholicism teaches. for you to suggest so is to make a fallacy of equivocation.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain What does Calvin's Institutes have anything to do with anything? I thought we were discussing MacArthur's denial of the gospel as revealed in Scripture. If you're referring to the Westminster Confession of 1647, you'll notice that the year 1647 is not the year 1536. I have no idea why you're bringing Calvin into this discussion. I really don't. You accuse me of equivocation, but as far as I can tell, you've just given me a straw man.
rofyle 5 months ago
@rofyle you indicated that the Reformers in which you identified Calvin among them flatly denied it; of which i was pointing out, that in Calvin's Institutes in no way rejects what has been taught by John Wesley; but was rather refuting the Catholic notion of it-especially with regards to justification. John Wesley's use of the word had nothing to do with justification; but was rather in reference to the process of sanctification, which is as vital, and even complimentary to justification.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle which i have attempted on more than one occassion to clarify. either i have not be articulate enough and/or you have not cared to give a more careful reading of what is actually being stated.
When the Lord indicates through his servant Ezekiel of putting his Spirit in us and causing us to walk in his commandments-it is exactly this truth, which is elaborated on more than one occassion throughout the Old & New Testament-which is what is meant when the term imparted righteousness is used.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle one could choose other synonymous terms for those whose palate is uncomfortable with such terminology. yet the idea would remain the same. where we find that we have first been justified by the imputation of Christ's righteousness through faith-which is by the propititious blood of Jesus which bears testimony of the faithful obedience, even the holiness of Jesus; further evidence of this reality is displayed in the ongoing work of sanctification.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle there is nothing in Reformed theology that would suggest that there is justification apart from sanctification. being careful to distinguish each one from another, they are equally careful to indicate that they are inseparable in that there is no sanctification where there is first no justification; nor is there any justification that exists apart from sanctification. all of which are by the grace and work of God to the soul of the elect.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle justification being the redemptive work by which the elect find peace with God through the perfectly faithful obedience of Christ as the Lamb of God who bore our sins propitiously in his holy righteous blood. the secondary reality of this justification is found in the first act of sanctification-believing in Christ that he has indeed become our substitute for our sin. that act of believing is ongoing, the evidence of being born of the Spirit. for as Romans 8 points out:
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle of how it is impossible for those who are in the flesh to please God. even the act of believing in the flesh cannot please God. the act of believing which is unto salvation must be in fact that which is done in the Spirit. the gift of grace is first and foremost in God giving his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. the ongoing truth of that grace is then revealed in God giving us a heart to believe by the washing of regeneration of the Holy Spirit that causes us to believe.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain The elect are not saved by regeneration. The elect are saved by justification. That is what you are not getting. You are under the impression that justification is just the first step in the process. No, it is the only step in the process. Regeneration and sanctification are because of justification. Mac believes that if we don't have enough works to show Christ at the last day, then we'll go to Hell even if we've been justified. Do you agree or disagree? Why?
rofyle 5 months ago
@rofyle show me someone who is justified that is not regenerated? or show me someone who is regenerated that is not justified.
I don't know about Mac's claim as you put it. If that is true, though I have not found evidence of that, than I would disagree with him. If he teaches such then he would be no different than traditional catholicism which teaches a grace + works salvation. but i have not found him to actually be teaching that.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle you seem to be wanting to stress the order of events. fair enough. Election (the Father being merciful to whom he will be merciful); Propitiation (the Son being the perfect Lamb of God); Calling (the Spirit drawing the elect unto Christ through the preaching of the word); Justification (the Spirit quickening the elect by applying the propitious blood of Jesus which gives faith in Jesus to cry out, "Abba, Father"), Sanctification, Glorification.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain I am not wanting to stress the order of events. I am wanting to stress the gospel - not by works, but by grace alone. To propitiate means to satisfy. Christ satisfied God's wrath. Rom. 3:25 Justification is not the Spirit quickening the elect! That is regeneration! I have told you time and again you are confusing justification with regeneration. Here now is the proof.
rofyle 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
How can the elect be drawn to Christ by the preaching of the Word when they are unable to hear, as Paul Washer says? They are dead in their sins and trespasses and merely corpses (like that of Lazarus prior to his resurrection) and first need to be made alive (regenerated) before they can hear the Gospel. That's putting the cart before the horse, isn't it? OK, so that means the elect must first be saved before they can hear the Gospel in order to be saved.
lessingtom 5 months ago
@lessingtom no real disagreement in anything you have stated. ".. that means the elect must first be saved before..in order to be saved." Though your wording is a little awkward, the sentiment would be accurate. As Paul speaks of having been chosen before the foundation of the world; that choosing of all the elect in that instance did save them even before they existed. the awareness & experience of that salvation is through the hearing of the Gospel by which faith is found in the heart.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
Though my wording may be a wee bit awkward, it says exactly what Calvinists believe. Your salvation was consummated before your existence? Really? And the rest's reprobation was also consummated before their existence? You believed before your existence or were you saved the moment you believed? Would you have been lost if you did not believe? I have noticed that most Calvinists know very little about Calvinism. I don't blame them because it is a most confusing doctrine.
lessingtom 5 months ago
@lessingtom we are saved from the foundation of the world by the Lamb of God who became our surety before the world even began. with the Son of God being the surety for those whom he would save, that salvation is guaranteed not to fail. my knowing of my own salvation when i did was but the result of the Son of God effectively fulfilling that promise he made before the world began. When God makes a promise of something being done-one might as well count it being done.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
Where in the Bible does it say that you were redeemed from the foundation of the world? Does it mean that those who were not saved from the foundation of the world are irreversibly condemned to eternal punishment in hell. Does it mean that Jesus only died for those who were saved from the foundation of the world?
lessingtom 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@lessingtom "..whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Rev 13:8
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 2Tim1:9
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@lessingtom Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, WHICH GOD, THAT CANNOT LIE, PROMISED BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN; But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; Titus 1:1-3
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
Of course God cannot lie but you are implying that He is a liar when He said: "For God so loved the WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Joh 3:16). Are the "WHOSOEVER" only the elect who were supposedly chosen unto salvation before the foundation of the world or ANYONE who BELIEVES? Israel as a nation is called God's elect (Is 45:4; 65:9, 22; Mat 24:31). Are they all saved?
lessingtom 5 months ago
@lessingtom According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Eph 1:4
Context is Eph 1:3-12
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: Eph 1:9
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
Nowhere in these passages does it say that God's election is unto salvation. God foreknew who would respond to his Gospel before the foundation of the world and chose them to be the recipients of his special blessings. Ephesians 1 describes the blessings God bestows on the saints and is not a dissertation on how to be saved. Paul underscores the blessings that follow one's salvation. Thus he speaks of the inheritance of the already redeemed and not salvation per se.
lessingtom 5 months ago
@lessingtom 2 Thessalonians 2: 13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
bondservantpaul 5 months ago
@bondservantpaul
The salvation spoken of here is not the regeneration of the unbeliever to believer but from believer to the final consummation of his salvation. This will occur at the Rapture when all believers (dead and alive) are going to be resurrected to meet the Lord in the air. The first regeneration (form unbeliever to believer) occurs through faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross; this one, the final consummation, occurs through sanctification of the Spirit.
lessingtom 4 months ago
@lessingtom What makes you say that? (that this is a different salvation). That seems weird...we are saved - as in continual - being saved until glorification. - why speculate like God would elect people to later blessing, but not the earlier? If a person is chosen or elected to "final consummation", then how is it they are not to the initial one in which they are recipients of salvation? i mean - what if a person messed up - and denied Christ but God elected them to later things ....
bondservantpaul 4 months ago
@bondservantpaul
Absolutely not! Believers are awaiting the day when they will be saved from their present bodies which are prone to sinning. That will occur when they receive their glorified bodies like unto that of Christ at the Rapture. In the meantime they are being sanctified daily for that day.. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 speaks of this salvation THROUGH sanctification. Being born from above is not THROUGH sanctification. You are nor sanctified and then born again.
lessingtom 4 months ago
Comment removed
lessingtom 4 months ago
Comment removed
lessingtom 4 months ago
Comment removed
lessingtom 4 months ago
@lessingtom the fact that i find myself believing is but the evidence of the electing grace of God that was laid upon me before i ever existed. Had God not chosen me from the foundation of the world i would never come to that saving faith which now is my pearl of great price. for all that God has chosen, Christ will find every single one of them, and give unto them also that pearl of great price-saving faith. as Jesus declared himself:
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@lessingtom All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Jn 6:37
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Jn 6:44
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me. (Joh 12:32). He seems to be saying ALL MEN and not ALL THE ELECT. Kapich?
lessingtom 5 months ago
@lessingtom calvinism is not a confusing doctrine. it is an offensive doctrine. it offends the pride of man. it offends the wisdom of man. the key component to all of calvinism rests the essential doctrine: the sovereignty of God. that in being God, he does whatsoever he pleases. and whatever he pleases, whether we comprehend it or not is altogether perfect, good, holy and just. that all his ways are indeed mercy and truth.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
And so it pleased God to save you and send others to hell? "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live." (Ezek 18:32). Is He speaking here of the elect only or ANYONE? MacArthur spreads the infamous lie that Jesus died for the elect only. Does that sound like HE has no pleasure in the death of ANYONE? You have a very strange idea of God's sovereignty
lessingtom 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain Calvinism as an assumptive doctrine which claims to know EXACTLY how the sovereignty of God functions. The Bible does say we are saved by his choice, but it also says we that saving isnt appropriated until WE repent and believe. The error of Calvin was to assume that he could define HOW is Sovereign over our freewill. Even the early church fathers and even Paul know "how unfathomable is the Knowledge and Wisdom of God." Calvin and Beza assumed they figured it out.
banahdecristoROB 4 months ago
@HermitintheRain secondly...just because we have a few examples in Scripture of God "causing men to choose a certain action" does not necessarily means that God does this in this fashion every time! That is a huge and unbiblical assumption of Calvinism. What we can know is that WE are responsible for our choices, what we cant grasp is how God's sovereignty exists over that, yet it must since the Bible states it. My reply for anyone who asks..(cont)
banahdecristoROB 4 months ago
@banahdecristoROB both Calvinists and Arminians in their heated debates over the issue of free will have actually missed the obvious: the honest evaluation of our own wills individually. there is no doubt that we have a will within ourselves. whether one believes in free will or not, the basic question that fails to be addressed is: what shapes that will? when asked in everyday conversation about why we choose a particular path in life-be it mundane or profound-our answers will vary..
HermitintheRain 4 months ago
@banahdecristoROB (2) what is more, whatever we attribute towards us causing to choose whatever it is we choose, more often than not the response is less than complete to indicate all that went into our making that choice. often times the most honest answer will simply be "I don't know". all that we will be able to answer is that at that moment our will was inclined unto that choice.
HermitintheRain 4 months ago
@banahdecristoROB (3) for the born again there will be a humbling enlightenment by the Holy Spirit as to the nature of who they are. such an enlightenment that they will be made to confess the utter wretchedness of their being. that their wills in the mix of that wretchedness, even on its 'best' day was ever only inclined to sin. that unless God in his mercy had given him a heart of repentance, that he would still to this day be inclined only to sin-and willfully so.
HermitintheRain 4 months ago
@banahdecristoROB (4) if left to ourselves, it wouldn't be our choice that would be the cause of condemnation, (though this would in no way help in the matter), the cause of condemnation is the state of our heart (which governs the will of man) that is utterly depraved and has nothing but enmity against God. the mercy of the Lord is in the fact that God sends his Spirit to us to give us a new heart, to give us a new spirit, to cause us to walk in his ways.
HermitintheRain 4 months ago
@banahdecristoROB (5) as to the sovereignty of God in it all a passage in Psalms sheds much light on it:
Do good, O LORD, unto those that be good, and to them that are upright in their hearts. As for such as turn aside unto their crooked ways, the LORD shall lead them forth with the workers of iniquity: but peace shall be upon Israel. Psalm 125:4-5
If another Psalm, which is actually reiterated in Romans 3, declares there is none righteous, none that seek after God; who then...
HermitintheRain 4 months ago
@banahdecristoROB (6) who then are these that do good, that are upright in their hearts? if all of us have gone astray; among which none of us have sought after God, to know him, to understand his ways; but rather, as Isaiah tells us, we have excelled only in inquity and learned to drink it up as water; something had to change these that do good and be upright in heart to make them that way. The Holy Spirit indeed does tell us how-that he is the one who makes the change.
HermitintheRain 4 months ago
@banahdecristoROB (7) it is the Holy Spirit according to his peculiar work he does lead those who are foreknown by God before the foundation of the world, who as Paul summarizes:
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Rom 8:29-30
HermitintheRain 4 months ago
@banahdecristoROB (8) the details of that calling is indeed peculiar. for everyone of God's elect there is sure to be as many varied testimonies on how the Holy Spirit brought them to the saving knowledge and faith in Jesus Christ. truth be told: as detailed and as insightful as each and one of these testimonies might be; they wouldn't know the half of how the Holy Spirit brought them to that day where the psalmist declared: "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power" (Ps 110:3a)
HermitintheRain 4 months ago
@banahdecristoROB (9) the wonder of God's grace in bringing anyone to be saved is in how he is able to take a people who are altogether opposed to God and to bring them to that precious day when they go from casting scorn and derision at Christ (just like that thief on the cross) to then suddenly finding one's own soul pleading for his mercy; while others who hang on their own cross remain obstinate and hard hearted to the grave.
HermitintheRain 4 months ago
@banahdecristoROB (10) man's will if left free to do whatever it wants, can and will only do what is in the nature of his heart. if that heart is the heart of an unregenerate sinner, it can and will only do that which is sin; whose ways will be anything but upright-and it will do so willingly. the gardener who cuts a tree down because it produces only bad fruit; has done no wrong; though the tree by its very sick nature was unable to do anything else.
HermitintheRain 4 months ago
@banahdecristoROB (11) yet if this gardner has a forest of sickly trees, and out of the desire of his own heart elects to give attention to some to save them, while passing others to be destroyed; he still has done no wrong in so choosing. we all who have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God; if God should so choose, as he indicates on numerous occassions that he has, to save some, and pass others by, his righteousness remains holy and true all the while.
HermitintheRain 4 months ago
@banahdecristoROB (12) that remnant, that elect will have no cause for glorying in themselves to their salvation; for they will know without any doubt that their salvation from beginning to end had every bit to do with what Paul called the election of grace. that it was entirely God's choosing them that has caused them to be saved, and nothing in themselves. that they were just as wretched and as deserving of hell-maybe even more so-as the one that was passed by.
HermitintheRain 4 months ago
@banahdecristoROB 1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
why am i not in hell already? not only was i as those that he just finished saying shall not inherit the kingdom of God, i know i was far worse than many of the people i have known in my own life? why should i believe unto salvation? i am not smarter than them. my own sins proved my lack of will power to do good
HermitintheRain 4 months ago
@banahdecristoROB (14) many of my own friends sat and heard the same gospel messages that i heard. for years i heard the gospel and gave lip service to it while my heart spent its time pursuing the pleasures of the flesh, promoting the pride of life, lusting after everything my eyes could see. most my friends were less ambitious towards sin; whereas i should have been in hell a long time before any of them, and in the darkest recesses of it; God had another purpose-to call me, to justify me, etc
HermitintheRain 4 months ago
@banahdecristoROB (15) i didn't wake up one morning and from an act of my free will suddenly change my heart and say, "I think I will believe in Jesus and be saved." but i did find my life being slowly turned upside down; everything happening contrary to my 'free will'. i found my heart getting more angry with God, (yes, i believed in God-just didn't want to have anything to do with him). over a long 12+ years my life with all of my ambitious dreams came crashing down on all sides.
HermitintheRain 4 months ago
@banahdecristoROB (16) then as is told in Hosea and in Psalm 107, when i was at my witts end, and in the desolation of my life, God the Holy Spirit began to visit me in a way that I had never known before. He began to speak comfortably to my heart of the beauty of God's Son; of his holiness, of his righteousness; of his power; and of his cross. And in the day of his power, I was broken like I had never been broken before, or since. My pride was destroyed. I was made to be humble before him.
HermitintheRain 4 months ago
@banahdecristoROB (17) in that humility, i found a hope i never knew existed-though i had heard the gospel for 30+ years since my childhood. when all my sins, and the devil's accusations against me, were screaming how God could never love a sinner like me; one so rebellious, so backslidden, so apostate as me; the Father's grace proved sufficient even for me, as the Holy Spirit flooded my soul, by calling to my remembrance passages of Scripture of his promise and power to love me.
HermitintheRain 4 months ago
@banahdecristoROB (18) people argue about having the choice to believe. i don't know what they are talking about. in that moment of being renewed unto the Lord, choice was a byproduct, not a cause. i didn't choose to believe and then believe. the reality was that i believed, and found my soul absolutely rejoicing at the reality of belief i was finding present in my soul. was i willing? absolutely. what i found in my soul was the greatest gift i have ever received-faith in Jesus Christ.
HermitintheRain 4 months ago
@banahdecristoROB (19) the Holy Spirit, by his peculiar working made me thirsty and hungry for his righteousness. and according to his wisdom and timing, when faith filled my heart, it was that spring of living water that satisfied by soul. I didn't ask for it. but when i first tasted it, i couldn't think of anything else but to ask for more and more. it was and is that pearl of great price that i found in my soul that the Holy Spirit put there. and i find i am perfectly willing indeed.
HermitintheRain 4 months ago
@HermitintheRain (cont) How can God hold a man responsible for an act freely chosen if God causes him to cwant to choose it or fails to cause him to choose the good which he is uncapable of choosing? The answer is as Paul says...It must truly your free choice to do either. THey ask then..."How does that reconcile with God's sovereignty?" Answer: The same way FORE-knowledge reconciles with God not being limited to time. It is an anthropomorphism of an unknowable and undefinable attribute of God.
banahdecristoROB 4 months ago
@banahdecristoROB the use of the word foreknowledge is not rightly meant to mean God seeing down the corridors of time, from his position in eternity, knowing who would choose him. the foreknowledge spoken of here is that kind of knowledge which is the same kind of knowledge which David speaks about of God knowing him before he was born, or of Mary when she speaks to Gabriel of not knowing a man, or as is often spoken of a women and man knowing one another intimately.
HermitintheRain 4 months ago
@banahdecristoROB (2) When Peter speaks of being foreknown by God, he is speaking of that intimacy which God had for his elect before the world began in the hidden counsel of his being.
HermitintheRain 4 months ago
@HermitintheRain Wow...a long list of typical Calvinistic Interpretations of verses that are not supported by either the text or elsewhere. As I said at the beginning...you assume to know how God CAUSES us to IRRESISTIBLY choose him. Which is nowhere stated in Scripture and if it was true, then dont you think God would have made a much clearer reference to it than the poetic Psalms which as every scholar knows is difficult to stretch into foundations for doctrines? (Not to change the subject)...
banahdecristoROB 4 months ago
@HermitintheRain (cont) but in all your 19 supports of TULIP you have done no more than the JWs do...you have your doctrine all figured out, then you find verses that could possibly be interpreted to mean what you want them to mean, even though the verses dont explicitly say what you say that do. i.e. Foreknowledge definition is not having intimacy with a woman...yes it is the same greek word but any greek scholar knows that the context, not the other uses defines its meaning. (cont)
banahdecristoROB 4 months ago
@HermitintheRain "Knowing" a man is way to say "having sex with" without using the more explicit term. That is like saying that since the word "tapping" is used of "having sex" in today's language, then hitting a hammer lightly is an intimate act. You cant tie foreknowledge to an ancient slang use of the word "konosko" as its meaning as JMac has done and other Reformist continue to do. How God is sovereign over our free will is unknowable but because of God's eternal grace, we all have a choice.
banahdecristoROB 4 months ago
@lessingtom when Habakkuk was approached by God to tell him of how he would raise up the Babylonians-an evil wicked people-to be the rod of judgment against his people; he could not comprehend how God could do this. when God divided the nation of Israel into 2 kingdoms, he gave the northern tribes to a man whose wickedness would only further curse them unto their being taken into captivity.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
And yet they are still God's elect (Romans 11:28).
lessingtom 5 months ago
@lessingtom when God purposed to kill Ahab, he took counsel, and gave authority to an evil spirit to deceive Ahab through the work of lying prophets. Paul reveals that there would be those whom God would send a strong delusion that they might believe a lie and be delivered over to destruction. of all the thrones that have been in this world; there has ever been only one throne that has ever mattered: the throne of God upon which all life lives or dies.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
Yep! Why does God send a strong delusion? " . . . because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." Calvinists' doctrine of electoral salvation is not the truth and therefore they believe a delusion. Is this delusion a God sent? You said it!
lessingtom 5 months ago
@lessingtom the sun doesn't rise unless God says so. the rain will only fall when and where the Lord commands it to fall. what God commands happens. what God promises never fails. when from his throne before the foundation of the world when God purposed to make a people for himself, every soul of that people, was already existing in the mind of God; and as such would exist, shall exist, because he who began such a work would perfect it to the very last soul.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@HermitintheRain
God is omniscient. Yes of course, and what He promises never fails. One of God's most wonderful promises is: "And it shall come to pass, that WHOSOEVER shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Act 2:21). Calvinists have a serious semantic problem. They don't know what WHOSOEVER means. They think it means "ELECT."
lessingtom 5 months ago
@lessingtom one of my favorite verses that declares this so beautifully:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 8-10
'his workmanship'=(Greek from which we get the word poem).
We are the poem of Jesus who is also called The Word of God.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@lessingtom when and where and under what circumstance each and everyone of the elect knows it is a matter of innumerable testimonies of how God brought the saving power of the gospel-the sword of the Spirit-to them to enlighten their minds, to regenerate their hearts, to quicken their spirit. the salvation was their's from the foundation of the world, though the experience and awarenss of it may have not occured for thousands of years into creation, or for decades in their own lives.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
The "T" in TULIP as you know stands for Total Depravity which according to Calvinists equals total inability. That's why Calvinists like Washer, MacArthur and Driscoll constantly refer to Lazarus as a metaphor of regeneration. Man is a corpse or dead bones which needs to be made alive supernaturally before he can believe the Gospel. It cannot possibly be that because Lazarus was already a saved man and in Paradise with Abraham when Jesus resurrected him from amongst the dead.
lessingtom 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain Christ imparts nothing to HIs people. Absolutely nothing! He imputes. And He only imputes His righteousness, not His faith.
rofyle 5 months ago
@rofyle everything i have that pertains to life and godliness i have by the divine power of the Lord Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:3).
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@rofyle
J MacArthur's kind of justification is the kind the Pharisees in the time of Jesus practised. They too believed that their law abiding lifestyles secured for them eternal life. It is called a works salvation. MacArthur can't be saved when he proclaims a Roman Catholic kind of works salvation.
lessingtom 5 months ago
@lessingtom INDEED!!!!!!!!
rofyle 5 months ago
@rofyle No, I have not read Horton's book yet, but I put it on my shortlist to buy next Amazon book order.
Myself, Keith, and anyone else who you say is for MacArthur is not standing behind MacArthur just because he is Jmac, we are standing behind his views here because like Keith said, this is the historical Protestant view on what the fruits of sanctification look like in a believers life.
Surely, you are not going to say that JMac is espousing a works based faith here.
calebcook77 5 months ago