Steve Cram is Ambassador to a global death machine that robs disabled children of their welfare benefits, independence, dignity and ability to survive.
Here's my take on the whole Cram v Coe thing. For me Coe is Britains greatest ever middle distance runner. However I think that Cram is Britains best ever 1500m/mile runner. On their best days best Coe wins the 800 and Cram the 1500 or mile. If they ran all 3 on the same day and it went to points, I'd go for Ovett for sheer guts and bottle.
fair play man for putting this on youtube... its great to see these old races again... in the days when britain ruled the world in middle distance running...
Deano I knew we would meet again. How are you. Hppy xmas and New Years. I would like to say Steve Cram is the greatest. English middle distance runner ever.
@deano27671 - I can see from your channel you're quite the Coe fan. Coe was a great one for sure. What is going on in GB now? I don't see many great performers except for Baddely. Not that we are great shakes here in the states but we don't have much of a tradition of middle or long distance running despite what some people claim. These days the kids would rather play Nintendo or go out for soccer than run anything over 400 meters.
There's really not a lot going on in the UK at the moment in men's middle distance, I'm sorry to say. Even our 3rd or 4th ranked guys in the 80's would beat what we have now. The US seem to have more potential than us at present. Symmonds I think is still learning the event and could get down to mid 1:43 this year, and Webb &Lagat are both a force to be reckoned with in the Mile when in top form. I really don't see Baddeley getting any better or winning any medals now at 28 this year.
? I presume you mean she won her Olympic medals while in her 30's!? Of course Baddeley could improve, but it's not the norm to start running faster after 28. Women are more likely to reach their peak later than men in middle distance events, but it really comes down to the individual.
@deano27671 I saw Webb's first international mile, what was it, 10 years ago... he managed 3:53 in a race won by El Guerrouj, set a new prep record... since then he has improved but can't catch the Africans.
It's good to have Lagat, he still shows flashes of brilliance, ran a good 3000 just recently, but it's kind of cheating cause he's Kenyan. Any country can have a Kenyan superstar immigrate.
@kozmon0t -Lucky you! It's a shame Webb has disappeared since his 3:46 a few years ago. That would be good enough at present to be right at the top. I know a lot of it's down to injuries and he's on the comeback at the moment. Ran a 3:41 last week and a 1:48 800m. I think he's running in Milan on the 9th. Unfortunately, I think he'll have to be even better than he was in 2007 if he's going to medal next year, as he hasn't much of a kick compared to other in a slow tactical race.
@deano27671 Then he should be like John Ngugi in 1988 and leave the slow and tactical to everyone else. Not easy in a 1500 but if you haven't got the kick, it's the only option in the Slo-lympics.
There's really not a lot going on in the UK at the moment in men's middle distance, I'm sorry to say. Even our 3rd or 4th ranked guys in the 80's would beat what we have now. The US seem to have more potential than us at present. Symmonds I think is still learning the event and could get down to mid 1:43 this year, and Webb &Lagat are both a force to be reckoned with in the Mile when in top form. I really don't see Baddeley getting any better or winning any medals now at 28 this year.
I should add I think Coe was the best trained of the Big 3 of the early and mid 80's. I think Ovett was the toughest - Cram nor Coe would never have raced suffering from bronchitis. Cram probably had the most natural ability of the three, but should have had the compartment surgery Walker had on his calves (fascia). The torque from his toe placement, with his thin ankles and large calves is a formula for injury, as it is for almost all runners with this leg structure.
Frank, you do make good points but I think you and Deano need to cool off. It doesn't do anyone much good arguing over races that can't be rerun. Sometimes the remarks make me laugh, I have to admit. Deano is the most rabid Coe fan I've ever seen. I think you post to simply push Deano's buttons.
Everyone likes to argue. Like Arthur Lydiard and Roger Bannister, I think Jim Ryun had the greatest natural ability (in '01 Lydiard said Ryun would still hold the 800 and mile records "...if I had coached him."). However, he was poorly coached and his best times have been eclipsed many times, just like Coe's records are gone, Ovett's etc. Down the line El G's, Kipketer's marks, etc. will be buried. The top guys merely set targets for future stars to take down. Leave it at that.
@bijection765 Yes, because now they have a decent test for EPO. Not full proof, but at least they have one now. They didn't in the 90's and they first test up to 2006 was pretty useless too.
cram has magnificent running form along side kipketer hes one of the greatest athletes to never attain an olympic gold medal but its quite beautiiful and inspiring to watch that majestic stride of his at full gear...btw does anyone know what happened to the other cram videos on youtube a few of the better ones have been removed over the last year why?for instance the 800m showdown where he beats joaquim cruz in 1983 in zurich.
Cram looked marvellous from a side view at full flow, but he had a unorthodox foot placement, which was part of the reason he had intermittent calf injuries.Head on he could look ungainly, especially when his head started rolling from side to side. He beat Cruz in the 800 at Zurich in 85 btw, not 83. A lot of races have disappeared, probably due to some violation of rights!
Steve is the man for me. Like fitzieo1 says it was the golden age of the mile. Coe and Ovett were at their peak and duelling each other back and forth for quite some time, than along comes Cram and smashes them both. Thanks for posting.
This was the golden era of middle distance running,it's the same old story some people like one of them more than another, I was always an Ovett fan,but over the years iv'e mellowed and now judge them as the three of them should have been judged at the time. All three were fantastic atheletes and we in the U.K will never have the top three middle distance runners in the world, in the same era.
Cram was fresh off setting a WR in the 1500 meter run (having also become the first man to cover the distance under 3:30). That's the main reason he was the center of attention. Coe's lack of top form at the time is also the reason he wasn't as much a target of the media's focus. They realized he was not in top condition and hence unlikely to give Cram a serious challenge.
The BBC commentary was so biased towards Cram at this time, just because Brendan Foster was Cram's mentor. I mean, the attention is all on Cram, they clearly want him to win. Coe was the reigning Olympic champion and Mile record holder, but is barely a footnote. They also conveniently forget to mention Coe was just back from a month out with injury. Complete lack of respect.
That's ok. Cram was injured before the '84 Games and it was conveniently only mentioned after the fact, the next season. Cram in his '83 or '85 form would have made for a very different race without injury at the '84 Games. But it's all conjecture. As sure as it's conjecture that Coe, even at his best, could have withstood such a long, strong drive to the line as Cram's in this race.
Mister I can see you're from the States, so with the greatest respect, I was watching these guys running domestically in the UK week in week out at this time, reading their interviews in AW and following all the articles written in the British newspapers. Cram was being bigged up all the time leading up to LA in the UK press, and Coe was given little chance in most quarters. I have the articles where Cram said he was in the same place as 83.
It was known before LA in Britain, that he had an injury in the mid season, but he also said he wouldn't go to the Olympics if he didn't believe he could win it. Both Ovett and Coe also missed races at home in June that year due to injuries. Where are the arguments for them not being in their best shape in LA? Cram underestimated Coe, and the excuses were being voiced straight after, well before the next season. Just as they did in 86 after he got beat in the 800.
AW was available here, and so was TV. It was invented here, mate. TAFNews had the best write-up before the Games. Of course the athletes talk themselves up, but it's well known Cram was fighting injury, Ovett was suffering from bronchitis, and Coe was short on training which probably kept him from being quite sharp enough in the 800. As to 1986, Cram peaked at the Commonwealth Games, where Coe was so scared of Cram's form he all of a sudden became "sick" after the prelims. Curb your Coe crush.
Lol! So you read The Times, Guardian, etc throughout summer 84 to know what was going on? Which channel did you get your insights from? Fox News? I wouldn't presume to know the in depth preparation of American athletes being the other side of the pond. Ovett wasn't suffering with bronchitis until the Games began. He probably had the best preparation of all 3 of them. You accuse me of biased, but at least I have all the facts at my disposal to inform my position.
Coe was ill in Edinburgh. He was scratched by the team doctor with a fever. What do you want, a doctor's sick note!? You've either invented or heard a rumour in the US which is without any validity. Do you think Ovett was feigning illness in LA? If Coe had carried on in Edinburgh he'd have ended up permanently damaged like Ovett was. FYI, Cram ran 7 races in the 2 months up to LA (incl 3 races in 4 days in mid July). Not what you'd expect from an injured athlete. Coe ran 4. Only 1 in July.
After LA Cram run 4 races within 18 days of the end of the Games, with big wins in Brussels and Koblenz, against the likes of Scott, Bile and Walker. Is that the sort of racing schedule of someone who is unfit?
Deano, I admire your perseverance in trying to defend Coe against all, but relax. Cram was injured during his prep for L.A., that's known by all. Like most top athletes, he didn't make a fuss over it. It's part of the game. A Cram at 100% would have started a very fast drive with 300 to go in L.A.. Would the outcome have been different? No one knows. Coe was known to pick and choose and his competitions carefully, much like Edwin Moses. Again, relax. You are too worked up. The vids are for fun.
Thanks for your concern. It's cool. But it's complete conjecture Cram would have been allowed to get to the front with 300m to go, especially at that pace.
@Daz555Daz Cram's coach said he was in a similar position going into LA as he'd been before the previous year's World Champs. He was short of a few races, but he wouldn't have gone to LA if he felt he wasn't capable of winning it. The difference is that in Helsinki, it went 3:41, in LA it was 3:32. Coe also didn't have a great build up in 84 and missed several months training in winter. Coe ran the last 800m in 1:49.8 & last 100m in 12.7 in LA.
If you can find me any performance from Cram where he ran as fast as Coe did in LA at the end of a 3:32 or faster 1500 race (or equivalent Mile) then I'll bow to your opinion. You won't find one. And when Coe won the 1500 at 84 Olympics, it was his 7th race in 9 days. Cram NEVER put together such a series of high intensity in his entire career. Cram's record is not as good as Coe's at 1500m, despite it being Coe's 2nd event. 2 Olympic golds, a 1500 WR and 3 x 1 Mile records, trumps Cram.
@deano27671 - Nobody's denying coe was magnificent, but Cram was incredible for British Athletics too and his silverware accomplishments and pb's prove this, 3.29.67 in the 1500 proved that, Coe's 3.29.77 pb however doesnt trump Cram, but still in the same league.
I think you'll find that no one individual actually invented television, although most recognise John Logie Baird as the inventor of the world's first working television system in Hastings, England in 1923. He was a Brit (Scot) not an American.
Baird's "system" was merely a scanner. The first true television, with an actual picture, was invented by Philo Farnsworth. And to confound you more, I'm originally from Scotland, but moved to the states when I was 5 - father's work took him here. Cram ran races for money like the rest of the lot. As for coverage, we all knew Ovett was ill before the 800 heats began, so you must have had carrier pigeon service mate. And you are so biased toward Coe as to be laughable.
Not at all. I have Ovett's biography in font of me now, and he said the problems only arose as the heats began. I'll quote it for you if thats what it takes. As for the tv, as I clearly said, no one person is responsible. Different references give different answers. Wiki says Baird "first publicly demonstrated television on 26 January 1926, in his small laboratory in the Soho district of London". But I can't be bothered to argue the toss about that.
Coe = the great time trilaller, Ovett = the great racer, Cram = the great talent.
smooveXXX 7 months ago
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Steve Cram is Ambassador to a global death machine that robs disabled children of their welfare benefits, independence, dignity and ability to survive.
BritishSnail 9 months ago
Here's my take on the whole Cram v Coe thing. For me Coe is Britains greatest ever middle distance runner. However I think that Cram is Britains best ever 1500m/mile runner. On their best days best Coe wins the 800 and Cram the 1500 or mile. If they ran all 3 on the same day and it went to points, I'd go for Ovett for sheer guts and bottle.
Daz555Daz 1 year ago
Cram won one for the tall guys
I always hated being outkicked by some little dude
kozmon0t 1 year ago
Amazing run thank you for posting
Squab1972 1 year ago
fair play man for putting this on youtube... its great to see these old races again... in the days when britain ruled the world in middle distance running...
junkybabes 1 year ago
Deano I knew we would meet again. How are you. Hppy xmas and New Years. I would like to say Steve Cram is the greatest. English middle distance runner ever.
newromantic888 2 years ago
Lol!
Happy New Year to you too!
I'm afraid Cram comes 3rd behind Coe and Ovett. He would need an Olympic title to get above them for starters, and a few more Wr's I'm afraid.
deano27671 2 years ago
I agree with you Deano, I believe Cram comes a close third. Hard to call between Ovett and Coe, but my god what we would do for any of them now.
fitzieo1 2 years ago
@deano27671 - I can see from your channel you're quite the Coe fan. Coe was a great one for sure. What is going on in GB now? I don't see many great performers except for Baddely. Not that we are great shakes here in the states but we don't have much of a tradition of middle or long distance running despite what some people claim. These days the kids would rather play Nintendo or go out for soccer than run anything over 400 meters.
jmcd2v 1 year ago
Hi jmcd2v!
There's really not a lot going on in the UK at the moment in men's middle distance, I'm sorry to say. Even our 3rd or 4th ranked guys in the 80's would beat what we have now. The US seem to have more potential than us at present. Symmonds I think is still learning the event and could get down to mid 1:43 this year, and Webb &Lagat are both a force to be reckoned with in the Mile when in top form. I really don't see Baddeley getting any better or winning any medals now at 28 this year.
deano27671 1 year ago
kelly holmes
mc1703 1 year ago
? I presume you mean she won her Olympic medals while in her 30's!? Of course Baddeley could improve, but it's not the norm to start running faster after 28. Women are more likely to reach their peak later than men in middle distance events, but it really comes down to the individual.
deano27671 1 year ago
@deano27671 I saw Webb's first international mile, what was it, 10 years ago... he managed 3:53 in a race won by El Guerrouj, set a new prep record... since then he has improved but can't catch the Africans.
It's good to have Lagat, he still shows flashes of brilliance, ran a good 3000 just recently, but it's kind of cheating cause he's Kenyan. Any country can have a Kenyan superstar immigrate.
kozmon0t 1 year ago
@kozmon0t -Lucky you! It's a shame Webb has disappeared since his 3:46 a few years ago. That would be good enough at present to be right at the top. I know a lot of it's down to injuries and he's on the comeback at the moment. Ran a 3:41 last week and a 1:48 800m. I think he's running in Milan on the 9th. Unfortunately, I think he'll have to be even better than he was in 2007 if he's going to medal next year, as he hasn't much of a kick compared to other in a slow tactical race.
deano27671 1 year ago
@deano27671 Then he should be like John Ngugi in 1988 and leave the slow and tactical to everyone else. Not easy in a 1500 but if you haven't got the kick, it's the only option in the Slo-lympics.
kozmon0t 1 year ago
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Hi jmcd2v!
There's really not a lot going on in the UK at the moment in men's middle distance, I'm sorry to say. Even our 3rd or 4th ranked guys in the 80's would beat what we have now. The US seem to have more potential than us at present. Symmonds I think is still learning the event and could get down to mid 1:43 this year, and Webb &Lagat are both a force to be reckoned with in the Mile when in top form. I really don't see Baddeley getting any better or winning any medals now at 28 this year.
deano27671 1 year ago
I should add I think Coe was the best trained of the Big 3 of the early and mid 80's. I think Ovett was the toughest - Cram nor Coe would never have raced suffering from bronchitis. Cram probably had the most natural ability of the three, but should have had the compartment surgery Walker had on his calves (fascia). The torque from his toe placement, with his thin ankles and large calves is a formula for injury, as it is for almost all runners with this leg structure.
franknjess 2 years ago
Frank, you do make good points but I think you and Deano need to cool off. It doesn't do anyone much good arguing over races that can't be rerun. Sometimes the remarks make me laugh, I have to admit. Deano is the most rabid Coe fan I've ever seen. I think you post to simply push Deano's buttons.
milerman 2 years ago
David coleman at his absolute best here, what a commentary.
What a race. Crammy at his peak, like a rolls royce.
markgregamy 2 years ago
Everyone likes to argue. Like Arthur Lydiard and Roger Bannister, I think Jim Ryun had the greatest natural ability (in '01 Lydiard said Ryun would still hold the 800 and mile records "...if I had coached him."). However, he was poorly coached and his best times have been eclipsed many times, just like Coe's records are gone, Ovett's etc. Down the line El G's, Kipketer's marks, etc. will be buried. The top guys merely set targets for future stars to take down. Leave it at that.
milerman 2 years ago
@milerman El G's record will stand for years more, it is a Monster!
bijection765 9 months ago
@bijection765 Yes, because now they have a decent test for EPO. Not full proof, but at least they have one now. They didn't in the 90's and they first test up to 2006 was pretty useless too.
deano27671 9 months ago
cram has magnificent running form along side kipketer hes one of the greatest athletes to never attain an olympic gold medal but its quite beautiiful and inspiring to watch that majestic stride of his at full gear...btw does anyone know what happened to the other cram videos on youtube a few of the better ones have been removed over the last year why?for instance the 800m showdown where he beats joaquim cruz in 1983 in zurich.
jerquie 2 years ago
Cram looked marvellous from a side view at full flow, but he had a unorthodox foot placement, which was part of the reason he had intermittent calf injuries.Head on he could look ungainly, especially when his head started rolling from side to side. He beat Cruz in the 800 at Zurich in 85 btw, not 83. A lot of races have disappeared, probably due to some violation of rights!
deano27671 2 years ago
Steve is the man for me. Like fitzieo1 says it was the golden age of the mile. Coe and Ovett were at their peak and duelling each other back and forth for quite some time, than along comes Cram and smashes them both. Thanks for posting.
fguy64s 2 years ago
This was the golden era of middle distance running,it's the same old story some people like one of them more than another, I was always an Ovett fan,but over the years iv'e mellowed and now judge them as the three of them should have been judged at the time. All three were fantastic atheletes and we in the U.K will never have the top three middle distance runners in the world, in the same era.
fitzieo1 2 years ago
Cram was fresh off setting a WR in the 1500 meter run (having also become the first man to cover the distance under 3:30). That's the main reason he was the center of attention. Coe's lack of top form at the time is also the reason he wasn't as much a target of the media's focus. They realized he was not in top condition and hence unlikely to give Cram a serious challenge.
milerman 2 years ago
The BBC commentary was so biased towards Cram at this time, just because Brendan Foster was Cram's mentor. I mean, the attention is all on Cram, they clearly want him to win. Coe was the reigning Olympic champion and Mile record holder, but is barely a footnote. They also conveniently forget to mention Coe was just back from a month out with injury. Complete lack of respect.
deano27671 2 years ago
That's ok. Cram was injured before the '84 Games and it was conveniently only mentioned after the fact, the next season. Cram in his '83 or '85 form would have made for a very different race without injury at the '84 Games. But it's all conjecture. As sure as it's conjecture that Coe, even at his best, could have withstood such a long, strong drive to the line as Cram's in this race.
franknjess 2 years ago
Mister I can see you're from the States, so with the greatest respect, I was watching these guys running domestically in the UK week in week out at this time, reading their interviews in AW and following all the articles written in the British newspapers. Cram was being bigged up all the time leading up to LA in the UK press, and Coe was given little chance in most quarters. I have the articles where Cram said he was in the same place as 83.
deano27671 2 years ago
It was known before LA in Britain, that he had an injury in the mid season, but he also said he wouldn't go to the Olympics if he didn't believe he could win it. Both Ovett and Coe also missed races at home in June that year due to injuries. Where are the arguments for them not being in their best shape in LA? Cram underestimated Coe, and the excuses were being voiced straight after, well before the next season. Just as they did in 86 after he got beat in the 800.
deano27671 2 years ago
AW was available here, and so was TV. It was invented here, mate. TAFNews had the best write-up before the Games. Of course the athletes talk themselves up, but it's well known Cram was fighting injury, Ovett was suffering from bronchitis, and Coe was short on training which probably kept him from being quite sharp enough in the 800. As to 1986, Cram peaked at the Commonwealth Games, where Coe was so scared of Cram's form he all of a sudden became "sick" after the prelims. Curb your Coe crush.
franknjess 2 years ago
Lol! So you read The Times, Guardian, etc throughout summer 84 to know what was going on? Which channel did you get your insights from? Fox News? I wouldn't presume to know the in depth preparation of American athletes being the other side of the pond. Ovett wasn't suffering with bronchitis until the Games began. He probably had the best preparation of all 3 of them. You accuse me of biased, but at least I have all the facts at my disposal to inform my position.
deano27671 2 years ago
Coe was ill in Edinburgh. He was scratched by the team doctor with a fever. What do you want, a doctor's sick note!? You've either invented or heard a rumour in the US which is without any validity. Do you think Ovett was feigning illness in LA? If Coe had carried on in Edinburgh he'd have ended up permanently damaged like Ovett was. FYI, Cram ran 7 races in the 2 months up to LA (incl 3 races in 4 days in mid July). Not what you'd expect from an injured athlete. Coe ran 4. Only 1 in July.
deano27671 2 years ago
After LA Cram run 4 races within 18 days of the end of the Games, with big wins in Brussels and Koblenz, against the likes of Scott, Bile and Walker. Is that the sort of racing schedule of someone who is unfit?
deano27671 2 years ago
Comment removed
AllanWellsfanclub 2 years ago
Deano, I admire your perseverance in trying to defend Coe against all, but relax. Cram was injured during his prep for L.A., that's known by all. Like most top athletes, he didn't make a fuss over it. It's part of the game. A Cram at 100% would have started a very fast drive with 300 to go in L.A.. Would the outcome have been different? No one knows. Coe was known to pick and choose and his competitions carefully, much like Edwin Moses. Again, relax. You are too worked up. The vids are for fun.
milerman 2 years ago
Thanks for your concern. It's cool. But it's complete conjecture Cram would have been allowed to get to the front with 300m to go, especially at that pace.
deano27671 2 years ago
I believe Coe would have beaten a fully fit Cram in 84.
jibjobjab 2 years ago 13
@jibjobjab if by 1984 you mean LA Olympics then I have to disagree. Cram looked short of his top sprinting speed by some margin.
Daz555Daz 1 year ago
@Daz555Daz Cram's coach said he was in a similar position going into LA as he'd been before the previous year's World Champs. He was short of a few races, but he wouldn't have gone to LA if he felt he wasn't capable of winning it. The difference is that in Helsinki, it went 3:41, in LA it was 3:32. Coe also didn't have a great build up in 84 and missed several months training in winter. Coe ran the last 800m in 1:49.8 & last 100m in 12.7 in LA.
deano27671 1 year ago
If you can find me any performance from Cram where he ran as fast as Coe did in LA at the end of a 3:32 or faster 1500 race (or equivalent Mile) then I'll bow to your opinion. You won't find one. And when Coe won the 1500 at 84 Olympics, it was his 7th race in 9 days. Cram NEVER put together such a series of high intensity in his entire career. Cram's record is not as good as Coe's at 1500m, despite it being Coe's 2nd event. 2 Olympic golds, a 1500 WR and 3 x 1 Mile records, trumps Cram.
deano27671 1 year ago
@deano27671 - Nobody's denying coe was magnificent, but Cram was incredible for British Athletics too and his silverware accomplishments and pb's prove this, 3.29.67 in the 1500 proved that, Coe's 3.29.77 pb however doesnt trump Cram, but still in the same league.
OurManInMarrakessh 1 year ago
I think you'll find that no one individual actually invented television, although most recognise John Logie Baird as the inventor of the world's first working television system in Hastings, England in 1923. He was a Brit (Scot) not an American.
deano27671 2 years ago
Baird's "system" was merely a scanner. The first true television, with an actual picture, was invented by Philo Farnsworth. And to confound you more, I'm originally from Scotland, but moved to the states when I was 5 - father's work took him here. Cram ran races for money like the rest of the lot. As for coverage, we all knew Ovett was ill before the 800 heats began, so you must have had carrier pigeon service mate. And you are so biased toward Coe as to be laughable.
franknjess 2 years ago
Not at all. I have Ovett's biography in font of me now, and he said the problems only arose as the heats began. I'll quote it for you if thats what it takes. As for the tv, as I clearly said, no one person is responsible. Different references give different answers. Wiki says Baird "first publicly demonstrated television on 26 January 1926, in his small laboratory in the Soho district of London". But I can't be bothered to argue the toss about that.
deano27671 2 years ago