Can an Atheistic Worldview Account for a Desire for Justice?

[christallh24]

Justice is a human concept, you idiots!

[Rahavin1]

no volume

[dlbattle100]

Fuck you.

[DrHowbeit]

This is such a strange fight for a Christian to take. Is the Bible just? Christianity today is not by a long shot what it was back in those days. The ideas of justice have changed. How can that be if the Bible was written under divine guidance? If there's a divine justice it should be cemented in the Bible and stay that way.

[Faidros62]

If you need a god to have empathy I would not call you a good person at all. When I feel that something is wrong I feel it strongly and I stand up for that no matter what explanation model I have for that feeling. Christians and muslims on the other hand will often defend their dogma even when they feel it´s wrong because they reason that because their god defines what is good, he can not be wrong. That´s to me is selling out ones human dignity and integrity.

[jmobo93]

@TheHigherVoltage ...and a little more knowledgable, perhaps.

[jmobo93]

@TheHigherVoltage You're right in everything you said about the God of the OT. I'd just like to point out, though, that the animal sacrifice is a manifestation of His grace, not just some sort of bloodlust. "The wages of sin are death", so it was a mercy that God allowed the Israelites to sacrifice an animal instead. And, of course, The sacrifice of the Lamb, Christ, is the culmination of that process of atonement. Message me if you'd like to talk more with someone respectful and rational.

[jmobo93]

@JPBuysjr Friend, while I understand your zeal and eagerness to defend the God you admire so much, you do not represent Christ well when, in your anger, you say things like "You fool!" which Jesus himself explicitly speaks against in Matthew 5:22. We are called in 1 Timothy 5:13 to defend our faith in meekness and with respect, not out of anger or pride. You seem to be a fan of Tim Keller. Well, Keller is very humble and respectful in his responses to non-believers. If you admire him, emulate h

[JPBuysjr]

I can only address so many things at once. Again I still dont see much point in dialoging over youtube, and I only do it to give you a new perspective so that one day in the future other people might come into your life and continue telling you about the goodness of Christ. God did not inflict pain on someone else, but rather on the cross absorbed the pain, evil and violence of the world into himself. The god of the bible is not like primitive deities who demands blood to appease his wrath...

[TheHigherVoltage]

@JPBuysjr "The god of the bible is not like primitive deities who demands blood to appease his wrath..."

So you've never actually read the bible. Try it some time. It helped cure me of the Christian mental disease.

Biblegod IS a primitive deity who demands blood to appease his wrath. Read Deuteronomy and Numbers. Find out what animal sacrifices biblegod demands for what offense and how to get the blood to spill on the alter just right.

And of course, how to properly beat slaves and wives.

[JPBuysjr]

@TheHigherVoltage You fool! God tells a husband to love his wife like how Jesus loves the Church. Jesus died and gave it all for the church. A real man by the biblical standard is someone who denies themself for there wife, subjecting and sacrificing himself for her. How much of a man are you. You talk about justice, in order for God to have done true justice would be for him to kill us, but the Son went willingly to die in your place when you or I didnt deserve it.

[sum1unxpected]

i did not evolve to have a sense of justice. i evolved to have sense, justice results from that.

[compvm33]

...what arrogant condescending buullsshiitt...i don't know who this guy is, and i don't care...he's a flat-dick jack-off...

[truckcompany]

'God' I hate when Christian use a moral argument for evidence of God (or justice in this case). It's really boring.. It usually boils down to this...

It's not nice to think humans have no absolute morality, therefor God must give this morality to us.

[niinja2]

It just feels right and wrong but its not really right and wrong?

well how do you determine what is right and wrong except by the "feeling" of it

[kwcarp1]

Atheism only leads to selfishness and it has to. Don't see too many atheists starting homeless shelters, going to calcutta, mobilizing after global disasters. I do see the stellar example of selflessness of atheists such as Hitler, Stalin, Mao and other winners. 

[niinja2]

@kwcarp1

well hitler was also a catholic and a vegetarian

i bet many of people who volunteer at these shelters are atheists.

[planetdarwin]

Sam Harris has some good points to make about "universal" morality amongst a group of individuals without the existence of gods.

[planetdarwin]

Basically he's describing the Golden Rule and our human sensibilities about it, not evidence for any higher power.

[timgoughuk]

hi. just a quick thought for manchester26m.

You say

1 - there is no universal moral code.

But you also say

2 - this applies to what people do to themselves

3 - this doesn't apply to what people force others to do

However if (1) is correct, (3) cannot be as you have no code to make a right/wrong statement.

To be fair you might just be saying 'its an uncomfortable feeling, but we can't actually say forcing is ultimately wrong.' If so - sorry about pointing out a non-inconsistency!

[Sojourneer]

Love this guy.

[manchester26m]

What a crock!! There IS no universal moral code, no ultimate judge! If a woman decides she wants to cut off bits of her genitals then fine - Some western women do weird things with their own. The uncomfortable feeling comes when someone is FORCED to do these things. It gets to us because we are empathic animals - We can put ourselves in someone elses shoes and picture ourselves being robbed, raped, murdered, mutilated - And it doesnt feel nice.

[EPR89]

He gives a speech at a university and uses arguments from ignorance? Great job, great job.

The poor guys who had to listen to this should, politely, ask him to give them back their fucking time, that he wasted by saying this bullshit.

[TheHigherVoltage]

well lets see...religions do not teach compassion for all, atheism leads to compassion for all...yes it does.

When Christianity ruled, it was called the Dark Ages.

Where Islam rules, it's a 3rd world country.

And in secular nations? Higher quality of life, lower crime rates, tolerant behavior towards one another, overall improved standard of living.

Sorry Charlie, religion itself is the anti-Christ...if there actually was such a thing.

[foxfire0002]

@TheHigherVoltage

I find it hypocritical when atheists and secularists claim they are all tolerant and better. How can you be tolerant when you make statements like the above? either you are tolerant or you are a hypocrite. you cannot be both. please choose one.

Stop bashing Christianity if you are tolerant.

[MrGoodNKinky]

@foxfire0002

Christianity needs bashed because of what it teaches.

To push a message of Vicarious Redemption is Not based on Personal Responcibility for ones actions!

Just as Thought Crime is always Tyrantical. John 3:16 is all about Thought Crime!

Then there is the idea that if someone isn't just like you that means it is good to torture them.

This is not only not a good message but a socially destructive one!

Add to that the fact that there is Zero evidence for Any God!

[MrGoodNKinky]

@foxfire0002

Only a Fool would be tolerant of a Child molester priest!

Only a Fool would be tolerant of a group hell bent on enslaving everyone else to their way of thought!

Only a Fool would be tolerant of a group which by virtue of their history has killed more in the name of their fantasy God then All Wars Combined!

Being tolerant of others doesn't mean you let them strip away Your rights / freedoms just because They think it is good!

You do Not have the right to dictate shit to me!

[MrGoodNKinky]

@foxfire0002

The backlash at Christian's can be seen as the Karma your group sent out over the near Thousand Years of Torture and Murder in the name of Your God! Called the Inquisitions!

Many Christian's still hold to the Inquisition mindset!

That being if someone Thinks, Lives or Speaks in a way They don't like then They feel it is Good, Just & even Righteous to Endlessly Torture them!

It is the violent undertone of Christianity that draws more condemnation from rational people!

[TheHigherVoltage]

@foxfire0002 Tolerance for people does not include tolerance of intolerant ideologies.

Stop bashing Christianity? I can point to the bible which declares "love for all" - YET all non-believers (and even some believers) are evil and enemies of biblegod that must be converted or destroyed. That's not tolerance - THAT'S hypocritical. Christianity has a 2000 year history of bashing everyone else...claiming to be persecuted while persecuting other...no different than Islam's DoubleThink.

[TheHigherVoltage]

@foxfire0002 (CONT) Specifically : explain to me how a doctrine of an "all-loving god" condemning people to eternal torture (for, say, not believing an "all-loving god" is capable of inflicting eternal torture), promotes tolerance for others.

Explain to me how declaring everyone (inside and outside your cult) evil, sinful, worthless and unworthy - could possibly be called spreading "peace and love".

[JPBuysjr]

@TheHigherVoltage If you are gonna judge Christianity, dont judge it by the people who claimed to follow did, or dont judge it by the hypocrites, judge Christianity by Christ himself. God comes down and is perfect and loving and caring and then we kill him. You (im assuming) believe man to be inately good, whereas theology says man is not good. You wouldnt want a god who was not just I dont think either. Please dont judge Christianty by anyone else except Christ himself. Read the gospels friend

[TheHigherVoltage]

@JPBuysjr I judge Christianity first by the content of it's mythology, then by it's believers.

A loving God that needs a blood sacrifice? so he sentences himself? as his son? to be butchered? instead of a billion other things he could do? Including just forgiving us? or fixing us? or just stopping by to say hi?

And because this sounds like more fiction than fact, I'm going to burn forever no matter how good I am?

Even if Jesus did say some good stuff, Christianity is sadistic.

[JPBuysjr]

@TheHigherVoltage If somebody murdered the person you loved the most you wouldn't just go oh whatever, ill just forgive. You yourself would demand reperations and blood. The amazing thing is that God bore your penelty himself. I wont convince you of anything on facebook, I just want to do anything to lead you to God. Do you know what true blasphemizing of the holy spirit that jesus spoke of is? A lot of people misinterpret it by thinking its special magic words that immediatly condemns someone

[JPBuysjr]

@TheHigherVoltage Blasphemizing the holy spirit is this; its calling the one person in the world who ever was good, the one person who loved everyone, the one person who gives hope, the one who stands for everything that is good and calling that person evil. Christ is the only being that is or ever was good, and to call him evil is sad. The holy spirit is the only thing that leads to salvation but people continually deny it because they dont want to live for Christ who is good.

[TheHigherVoltage]

@JPBuysjr Why did you change the subject? Why would you believe that an all-loving god requires a human sacrifice? What is good (or just) about killing your son for someone else? You only want to look at it like "Jesus was good and we killed him". Where is your honesty? The mythology says biblegod ordered him sacrificed, a blood sacrifice, to appease himself on our behalf. This is not the actions of an all-loving or all-just god.

Why would any moral person believe this?

[TheHigherVoltage]

@JPBuysjr (CONT) "Blasphemizing the holy spirit is this; its calling the one person in the world who ever was good, ...(Christ)"

No. You're provably lying. Jesus specifically said that blaspheme against him didn't matter - it was only blaspheme against the holy spirit that mattered. And here you stating beliefs that are contradicted by the bible.

Why is that? Why do Christians just make shit up and say it like it's truth? When it's provably false?

[JPBuysjr]

@TheHigherVoltage Rather this is a God who becomes human and offers his own lifeblood in order to honour moral justice and merciful love so that he can destroy evil without destroying us. The cross is not an example of sacrificial love, throwing your life away needlessly isnt good. Jesus had to die because there was a debt needed to be paid, God paid it. There was a penelty, God bore it.

[TheHigherVoltage]

@JPBuysjr

#1 a human sacrifice is immoral, not moral.

#2 the debt (and penalty) you claim biblegod paid, was to himself.

#3 Jesus dying did not destroy evil, nor does the Christian religion destroy evil. The history of Christianity proves that it causes just as much evil (if not more) than it does good.

#4 begging forgiveness or deciding to believe in something, is not justice- it's avoidance of justice.

#5 Mercy is the suspension of justice - so is your god just or merciful? He can't be both.

[2003SCT]

He is talking about justice? LOL. God has really set up a world full of justice for humans...or not. Christianity requires "justice" to happen after everyone is dead...good old religious version of "it will get all sorted out in the wash". Enjoy living with heads in la la land.

[MaMastoast]

This guy faisl to see, Yes we do FEEL its right and wrong, but we FEEL it BECAUSE it's practical, it's not something we think when we deem it right or wrong ,but it is because it is beneficial for us that we do feel that way however

[mightymergz]

So if something is practical, then it is objectively right?

[TheFallibleFiend]

The implication is that people like Lewis who do not understand science should avoid drawing conclusions from it.

[gusb232]

It's not actually right and wrong because our sense of justice comes from reality?

WTF

I think Christians Are in much more of a pickle trying to express why things like genital mutilation and slavery are wrong since these are acts instructed by yahew.

Our sense of justice is not exist as some platonic shadow cast by a bronze age diety; It is a product of concrete and natural forces.

[samlowry1971]

So, his argument is "wouldn't that be awful if it were true"? And, of course, it is true that we get our morality from our evolutionary history, but also from our ability to reason. Don't like it? Too bad!

We have words like "bad", "wrong", and "evil" to describe pain, and other unpleasant things -- that's all you need. Unpleasant things, unfair things, are unjust. You don't need to assume some ultimate framework of morality; human morality is what it is, and it adds nothing to bring a god in.

[FlyingFree333]

It has nothing to do with being practical, social animals have empathy it promotes social cohesion. Simple biological need for social animals, nothing more.