DNC 2008:- Rape and Abortion

[chalomirof63]

"I was raped to get pregnant!!" Uh, okay. So good to have two such profoundly articulate individuals speaking for the "Pro-Life" side. Would one expect anything other than this.

[aprilschone1]

I'm sorry...but she is dumb. They both are.

[leiapeison]

after 24 hours the heart starts beating? not hardly!!

[aprilschone1]

That "man" is very uneducated.

[leiapeison]

so because this woman wants to continue a rape pregnancy every woman should have to? that is ridiculous. not everyone is the same or reacts to trauma the same. some women would not be able to handle it or would grow to resent what was growing inside them. it would be torturous for both.

[hermanainchrist]

What is growing inside them is innate human life with intrinsinc value equal to that of the mother or any other human being. The right not to be killed outweighs the right not to be pregnant. Having an abortion is an act of violent assault against a human being, it is the ultimate form of child abuse. These facts don't change however human life is concieved.

[leiapeison]

it isnt just as simple as not being pregnant. when you take away choice for rape victims, you enact a second sexual violation upon them that is worse than the first. forced pregnancy is more vile than forced sex. not to mention birth is not like breaking a nail. even when it is voluntary it is traumatic. when it is forced it is nothing short of torture. rape victims must not be subjected to further degradation of their bodies and person by being turned into brood mares

[hermanainchrist]

You're just not seeing it are you. I never said it was simple and unfortunately there can sometimes be 2 victims of rape, the mother and her child, abortions can oftentimes be emotionally damaging and traumatic for many women, killing the child won't fix the problem, but could certainly enhance it. Not to mention abortion procedures themselves are nothing short of torture and a denial of the unborn's right to live.

[leiapeison]

research the birth trauma association or google birth rape. these are the stories of women who gave birth willingly and yet they are traumatized. i cant imagine if it was forced. the unborn has no inherent right to life because it is an infringement upon the womans bodily privacy. it is using her against her will and nobody has a right to do that not even the unborn

[hermanainchrist]

The baby can't help being concieved and it shouldn't be made to pay for the crimes of the rapist. Despite rape constituting for a significantly small percentage of all legal abortions, I believe victims of rape should recieve the right support and counselling instead of being manipulated into killing their own children by lucrative abortion industries like planned parenthood.

[leiapeison]

the only one manipulating these women is you. women do not get abortions to victimize the unborn. they do it to preserve their dignity and in this case possibly their sanity. giving birth costs more money than abortions do. if these doctors really wanted to get rich, they would be obgyns instead. abortion is not torture. it is a sterile procedure. all surgery is graphic and gory to some extent. that doesnt make it wrong. i never said abortion would undu the rape just that it prevents another 1

[hermanainchrist]

the debate of abortion has nothing to do with money, at least not on my part, it is about justice. Surgery? it is not simply 'a removal of contents' from the womb it is a destruction of a newly formed life

All i hope to do is create an awareness of which i certainly gain no profit. Women deserve better than abortion, they deserve to know the truth behind this disgusting agenda. They deserve to know what abortion involves, knowledge which they'll never recieve from the abortion industries.

[leiapeison]

the knowledge you want to give them is baised and has been proven false. i have been on the websites that you glean info from. they are not legitimate. the only agenda is for them to be treated like human beings and not breeding chattel which is what you do if you force these women to be pregnant against their will. it is indeed a form of rape. which can never and should never be legislated in a society that values its women

[hermanainchrist]

Seeing as about half of the victims of abortion are female - and the fact abortion damages women I'd urge you to rethink your last statement. How has any of the information been proven wrong. I'd like to see proof that the unborn child is not human and not alive, only after that will any of your arguments have any ground. - How can a society that doesn't value life value women?

[leiapeison]

i can send you a video explaining why abortion is permissable even if hte unborn are human. it all has to do with the right to defend ones own body against aggressors. feti are aggressors by their very nature. i already explained that forced pregnancy is the ultimate violation of a womans mind, body and spirit as there is no more intimate experience a person can experience and to have it forced upon you is worse than having sex forced on you. i consider rape to be worse than murder especially

[hermanainchrist]

So, since we were all feti, we were all agressors, undeserving of the right to life. This has nothing to do with rape. being concieved isn't a crime, a baby shouldn't be punished for being alive. Outlawing abortion woulnd't deny a women of her right not be pregnant - abstinance does that, save in the rare cases of rape. But even in rape, neither the child or mother is responsible and deserving of punishment.

[leiapeison]

yes feti are aggressors. if i was unwanted in the womb my mother would have had every right to abort me. this has EVERYTHING to do with rape. you obviously have no true grasp of the ramifications for women and society at large if you legislated such an archaic position. being conceived is not a crime, but forced pregnancy is a form of torture under international law. outlawing abortion would demean women. if a woman cannot decide something as far reaching as pregnancy and childbearing

[hermanainchrist]

"being conceived is not a crime, but forced pregnancy is a form of torture under international law."

The only time pregnancy could be seen as forced is through rape/ incest (which constitute for a very small amount of all legal abortions) Anyone else could insure their right not to be pregnant through abstinance, the main function of sex is to pro-create afterall! Abortion nowadays is seen as a contraceptive, this is something you seem to ignore - it is disturbing.

[leiapeison]

the main function of sex is to procreate? that is such an outdated notion. sex has so many differant purposes. and abstinence is not a practical option for all. married women get abortions after all.

[leiapeison]

that is the point though. to force a rape victim to continue the pregnancy IS psychological torture. rape violates a woman beyond words. many say it is a form of murder since it "kills the soul" forced pregnancy is even worse than rape.

[Headhunter004]

No, it is forced if you force them to continue the pregnancy against their will. In America, we have free will, but we don't have the right to live at the expense of other people's bodies and rights, which is exactly what an unwanted fetus does.

Sex is NOT just for procreation, it's for us to enjoy, tell me how many people have sex just to procreate nowadays? Very few. Most people do it mainly (or only) for the pleasure of it. You think most undergraduates do it just to procreate? HELL NO!

[hermanainchrist]

My friend you have it backwards. The right to life overrites the right not to be pregnant because it is the most fundamental right. No. I don't think the only purpose of sex is to pro-create, but that is how you, I and every one else got here, which is says a lot about the functions of sex.

[leiapeison]

the most fundamental right is the right to be free in ones own body. which includes the right to life. no one has a right to life at the expense of someone's body. i cant force you to use your body to keep me alive. neither can a fetus. to force a woman to share her body with a fetus is to rape her.

[hermanainchrist]

I think it is a travesty that anyone would even consider comparing the development of a young human life to an evil act of rape. As if the child purposeless, selfishly decides to cause pain to his/ her mother. Can you not see that this child is vulnerable, defenceless and innocent? The fact that the life in the womb is human and living does not change regardless personal preferences and circumstances surrounding conception!

[leiapeison]

i never said it was the baby's fault. that doesnt change anything. it is an aggressor by its very nature. it doesnt matter if it means to. lots of born humans do things they cant help. that doesnt justify us laying down and letting us walk all over us. if someone is inside me against my will, they are an aggressor. if someone is tearing open my vagina, they are an aggresor. this video is about rape and abortion. check out the violonist experiment. it explains this perfectly.

[leiapeison]

"it wouldnt be as tortorours with the right supports"

do you ever listen to yourself? so because it wouldnt be "as" tortorous we should go ahead and torture her anyway? you dont get to decide who gets a chance at life because it is my body. if i am not free in my own skin i cant be free anywhere. my body is my domain. i am the only one in a position to dictate what happens to it. i am not your or anyone else's slave.

[Headhunter004]

"As if the child purposeless, selfishly decides to cause pain to his/ her mother."

Lame argument... cancer doesn't "choose" to enter anyone's body, either! Should you just live with it then, and let it kill you? And don't even give me that "pregnancy doesn't kill like cancer does" BS, unwanted pregnancy (ESPECIALLY one resulting from rape) DOES kill the one thing that TRULY matters: the spirit. Even if it doesn't kill physically, it's still a grave enough invasion of our body to fight it.

[Headhunter004]

No, it doesn't, your rights stop when they infringe on the rights of others, this is a WELL-KNOWN FACT in both constitutional and international law! There is no right to live at the expense of someone else's life or body. Just as the government can't force me to give up my kidney for someone with heart failure to survive, they can't force a woman to remain pregnant for the sake of a fetus's life. It doesn't matter how fundamental it is, if it infringes on another's rights, it's nonexistent.

[hermanainchrist]

forced pregnancy wouldn't be so torturess if the right care and support is provided. - If being concieved is not a crime then why make the unborn pay by penalty of death? - Don't you see here that the right to life outweighs the right not to be pregnant.

[leiapeison]

i agree that proper help is needed to suppor these women. your use of the term death penalty is emotional word play. the death penalty and abortion are two seperate things with differant motives and functions in society? once again this has little to do with "just not being pregnant" this has to do with the right to the disposition of ones own body which you would be robbing this violated woman of. you would be raping her again.

[Headhunter004]

"forced pregnancy wouldn't be so torturess if the right care and support is provided."

Yes, it would, pregnancy is NOT like breaking a fingernail and NO amount of care or support is going to mask this. You "pro-lifers" show absolutely no care or regard for women who are raped and thereafter get pregnant (or even get pregnant by means other than rape), "supporting" her in forcing her to carry the seed of a rapist? I could literally strangle her to death and it would be more loving!

[Headhunter004]

In fact, I'm sure she would rather have me grab a noose and strangle her to death than go through the obliviously awful fate YOU would subject her to, at least then her spirit would die at the same time as her body and not long before.

[TheGeekyNinjaStudios]

@Headhunter004 Do you mind giving evidence for that statement? GOP governors have created some of the best support centers and improved state care to cater to these issues.

[leiapeison]

since in this instance the one being murdered has no awareness of it to begin with. we do value life. so much so that we value the women that give that life and we want to make sure these children will not be born into a world where woman are subjugated in such an archaic and discriminatory fashion. study after study shows that abortion rarely has lasting physical or psychological consequences. i can show you stories of what happens to rape victims when they are forced to give birth.

[hermanainchrist]

Just because the baby is not aware that justifies it's death? Young infants outside the womb can be unaware, but that does not mean we can kill them. Killing, however subtle, is still killing.

I too, can bring up evidence and studies showing women that have regretted and been damaged by abortion.Still, I fail to see any evidence disproving the unborn's life and human nature.

[leiapeison]

a newborn is not an imposing itself upon anyone neither is it harming a woman in any way. feti that are unwanted are. i am far more concerned with the suffering and welfare of a sentient women who knows what it is to suffer and who will have to live with that suffering forever than a speck of dna in her uterus who has no life experience to begin with.

[hermanainchrist]

You argue that women who don't have the choice of killing their offspring are being subjugated - and that children shouldn't be born into this world - do you see the contradiction. You're advocating the freedom to kill people so they won't be born into a world where there is no freedom to kill. What we should make sure of, is that children are born into a world that doesn't view early life as dispensible and insignificant, this starts by allowing them to live!

[leiapeison]

i never said children should not be born. you are putting words in my mouth. i advocate that they be born into a world where women are not subjected to degrading treatment.

[hermanainchrist]

I apologise if I misunderstood. However, I think what is happening to the unborn children - a denial of right to life - is far more degrading.

[leiapeison]

she cannot fully participate in society. degrading for whom, the unborn? if aborted, they will never know. a woman will though. she will have to live with that for the rest of her life if she doesnt kill herself first which i have read about happening. you dont get to decide whose life is ruined or who gets a chance at life because you are not the one that has to live with the consequences. you dont have to go through the pain of birth. she does. so it is under her discretion

[hermanainchrist]

"if aborted they will never know" - that justifies their killing? Neither would a newborn baby know, but to advocate their mass-destruction would be considered evil and absurd. The fact is - 1 hour before birth/ 1 hour after - there is no difference! It could be credited that a fetus or newborn "looks more human" but his/her nature has been the same since conception - it is an innate human, - the zygote, embryo, fetus, are all our earliest stages of development as humans

[leiapeison]

1 hour before birth? dont be ridiculous. we are not advocating late term abortions for frivilous reasons. i do not advocate the "mass destruction" of anything. that is a strawman. i never said it makes their killing morally neutral. just that to consider the woman as just an incubator for the needs of a primitive life is heinous and no civilized society would subjugate women to such a deranged degree.

[hermanainchrist]

So what justifies "early" abortions over late ones?

It's the same blood shed.

As if the child's value increases as it grows... the unborn is ALREADY human and therefore ALREADY has value.

[leiapeison]

early abortions cannot survive on their own physiologically. i am not a breeding pig. to protect my own body is a fundamental need and right. it is the same as fighting off any other aggressors. when you deny consent to a woman over the use of her body, you subjugate her as a rapist does.

[hermanainchrist]

Again where are you getting the idea that the life in the womb is an aggressor wilfully causing distress and pain? Its not denying a women of controlling her body. The choice comes the night before not the morning after. However, seeing as the ONLY case of pregnancy you ever seem to talk about is rape, this still isnt the babys fault, it is the rapists.

[Headhunter004]

"It's the same blood shed."

CLEAR-CUT difference when it's viable then beforehand: when it's viable it is then an actual, LEGITIMATE human being instead of by religious wacko standard of having a single cell. There's a REASON non-viable embryos or feti aren't treated as people (besides the fact that they're NOT people): treating them as such strips women of control over their own bodies, at which point they might as well not even be alive, and because it inflicts mass suffering on REAL people.

[hermanainchrist]

There have been women who have attempted suicides after regretting having abortions aswell! It is clearly damaging. I understand it could hurt a women to continue an unwanted pregnancy, but the difference is I'm thinking of the life in the womb aswell, you obviously think of abortion as plucking a hair, which it isn't, but rather a destruction of life.

[aprilschone1]

pro life people's arguments are counter productive....said by President Barack Obama.

[hermanainchrist]

Instead of government's pouring money into this industry, they should be providing pregnant women with better health care/ counselling/ financial support etc. adoption is always the best option if they really couldn't bring up the child - I know it's hard for women to go through a pregnancy 'just to give her child away' but woulnd't it be better for that child to be given a chance in life.

[leiapeison]

you dont get to choose who gets a chance at life or whose life is ruined because it is not your life and welfare that hangs in the balance. this is someone elses well being we are talking about.

[Headhunter004]

"adoption is always the best option"

No, it's not, we are already have over 500,000 unwanted orphaned children currently in foster care, not to mention children are often abused, both sexually and physically, or even KILLED in FC, to sacrifice women's mental and physical health and to bring them below economic survival (it cost $6,000 just to carry a pregnancy full term) just to bring even MORE unwanted children into the world is deplorable, to say the least.

[hermanainchrist]

So you're suggesting killing them all instead. That's clever.

Yes, what you're saying is probably true, but I'm sure it would be considered absurd to kill the "unwanted" children who are already outside the womb. What is the difference? One living human being is denied the the right to life for existing inside the womb? It's a dangerous thing to view human life as disposable... especially for the sake of saving a dollar...

[leiapeison]

dont talk to us about making people disposable. you are making women disposable by turning them into nothing more than fetal batteries. the only one abusing human life is you by making women be pregnant to appease your conscience. it doesnt get anymore dehumannizing than forced pregnancy. there is no greater abuse of a person than what you are suggesting. to put the needs of a non-sentient barely alive organism above a woman is reckless and irresponsible to say the least.

[Headhunter004]

"What is the difference?"

MAJOR difference: those unwanted people outside the womb, besides being fully sentient beings WITH THOUGHTS, FEELINGS AND SENSES, unlike unborn embryos or fetuses, aren't using anyone's body against their will and in such a grave way.

"One living human being is denied the the right to life for existing inside the womb?"

It's NOT a human being until it's viable. Until then, the woman is CLEARLY the only rights-bearing human being to be considered.

[leiapeison]

i have talked with rape crisis counselors, rape victims advocates and rape victims that have conceived concerning abortion rights. these are professionals that actually have experience with these women. i think they know what they are talking about. i have researched ptsd rates and other psychological disorders in rape victims. the effects are far reaching and profound. this is just for women that were not revictimized through forced pregnancy.

[hermanainchrist]

In the extreme case of pregnancy by rape, the fact is: both mother and baby are innocent of the crime - it is either the mother sacfricing 9 months of pregnancy (which can indeed be traumatic) - or the child's life being sacrificed. The right to life is the most fundamental right. But abortion violates this right in the name of the mother's convenience.

[leiapeison]

your statement that this is just "conveniance" shows how little you understand the vastness of this type of trauma or what these violated women actually experience. it has nothing to do with conveniance. it isnt just 9 months. rape is permanent and to subject her to another rape that last 9 months violates the womans entire being beyond reason. the right to life is not absolute. there is another human being here with a right to her own bodily integrity which includes abortion

[Lynxcat78]

God bless that young lady with her choice, but they are both still confusing their religious beliefs with the Bill of Rights.