This woman is so full of shit. Do a little research on her, and you'll quickly see that she has a nasty little habit of saying things that can't be substantiated at all. "Oh, I did this, and I did this, and the kids improved, and the test scores went up, etc. etc. blah blah blah". Yet, when pressed, she can never lay hands on any documents and such to back any of her lies up. She'd make an excellent politician.
NEVER MIND THAT BITCH TALKING BOUT GIVING 2 HOURS OF DAMN HOMEWORK FUCT THAT I MEAN I GET ABOUT 30 MIN MAX A DAY FOR ALL MY CLASES AND IM GETTING A'S AND B'S FUCK YOU MICHELLE RHEE FUCK YOU
@neelantra Okay. First of all, let's get one thing straight. It is completely inappropriate for you to be calling kids "shitty." Not only does that comment have no moral value, but it is completely irrelevant to the problem at hand. Children are not "shitty." If they are misbehaved and inattentive in class, it is because the parents have not done a right job with instilling them with the moral values they need to succeed in a classroom. Every child has the potential, ability and want to learn.
so weird why would a new teacher be given the the students who had the most challenges academically and behaviorally? shouldn't it be the more experienced teachers?
The fact is that Discipline is a prequisite befor learning. Most of these shitty kids have NO interest in learning at all. If behaviour is good, and the student values education, teaching and learning is a breeze.
If the reformers are right, why have SAT scores decline slowly but steadily since 2002 when they took charge? (Scores fell in Rhee's own district of D. C.) See: ateacheronteaching.blogspot.com.
Teach for America is a lost cause anyway. Most of the teachers are college grads who couldn't get into medical/law/graduate school or find a real job. They don't give two shits about inner city kids. They just use the Teach for America program to fill in the blank for a year or two on their resumes. And even if they did care, the inner city kids are doomed to a life of poverty and petty crime. Nothing anyone can do about that.
Why do we listen to Michelle Rhee? She lasted three years in the D. C. schools and antagonized parents. From 2006-2007 to 2008-09, attendance in her district declined to 88%, meaning the average kid stayed home 21.6 days. That has nothing to do with teachers and everything to do with parents...unless you fault teachers for lacking telepathic powers. During the same period, SAT scores in Rhee's district dropped on average from 1217 to 1196, down in all areas, reading, math and writing.
PEOPLE PEOPLE - OUR SCHOOL SYSTEM IS SO OUT OF PLACE AND SHIT FOR OUR CHILDREN - AT LEAST THERE IS A VOICE OF CONCERN - YOU PEOPLE GOING ON ABOUT HOW FRAUDULENT MICHELLE IS - YOU TRY THE JOB
I think Rhee simplifies everything when she says education is all about teachers. See: ateacheronteaching.blogspot.com. Read the post on "Michelle Rhee and the Dumb Judge
Born here or not - you can't take the slope out of a slope; she's a simple crook, and banking on Americans to be too candy-ass to investigate then levy harsh justice for chong-hong trash-level forgery for grand fraud. As in Unforgiven should pay $20 a head to clear 'em out then no votes unless Aussie style 'no crap imegrations' is part of the platform! :0 What an ugly little crook with unnatural, - not it's - teeth. Yech!!
In the WAITING FOR SUPERMAN movie, Geoffrey Canada states, " I actually know how hard it is to be a GOOD teacher. It took me 3 years to become a DECENT teacher, BEFORE I really LEARNED my CRAFT. And then in about 5 years, I was a MASTER teacher."
Ironically, 50% of NEW teachers QUIT within 5 years.
Inner-city schools are innundated with NEW teachers, because once a teacher gains EXPERIENCE, she moves to a school in the suburbs. Schools where the kids actually listen to the teacher.
This rancid human LIED about her test scores. It came out in the Washington Post, if anyone is interested go to the post site and read the article and her response to being outed. The woman lied.
Rhee not only was abusive to children during her BRIEF classroom experience, falsified test scores throughout her career, and offered victims of child sexual abuse payoffs for not reporting such allegations against Kevin Johnson, founder of St. Hope charter schools in Sacramento.
She's a fraud, a liar, and potentially a criminal...
How THIS cunt has been given a public platform to tout hate against teachers and their unions is demonstrable of her willingness to sell her soul...
@bbbbmer this is a comlpete lie an undoubtedly came from someone that prefers to protect overpaid teachers who generate no good results and who spend more time collecting their paychecks than investing proper time in students. Every child, regardless of circumstances can learn.WELL DONE MICHELLE RHEE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Having see Rhee lecture in person a few times, I can see why people in DC approved of the job she did, but not of her. She deserves a medal for her obvious dedication and efforts...and also a slap across the chops for being a total b***h about it. She is one of the most obnoxiously smug and rude people I have ever seen. For someone who cares so much about education, she could stand a few lessons in bedside manners.
Michelle's goal is to put a safety net to all our kids by putting student first. We adults have gave up on our kids. We are almost dead last in math and science. Did any of us made a move to turn things around? Did we ever teach close to 100% effectively towards our students? If not then we should try to achieve what Michelle had accomplished. 90% is sure good enough!
Go to youtube... channel... lionking4277... and try my basic elem. math 100% effective. Your students starts solving with you.
Teachers and parents. If you struggle teaching basic elem. math in your class. Go to youtube... channel ... lionking4277... and watch my videos the easiest math ever!
@MsJanetWood Why is this improvement statistically impossible? She has a small subset of students so from a simple mathematical standpoint that kind of improvement is entirely possible.
If you have proof she is a liar, why don't you provide the proof. If you don't then I think you're a either a union thug or a bad teacher that Michelle Rhee fired.
@retsep81 Rhee has her own problems she should have to explain. See the blog: Ateacheronteaching.blogspot.com (Grading School Reformers: Michelle Rhee and the Miracle of Rising Test Scores).
@lvll138inrs If done right. Finland for example treats teachers like professionals, not slaves. Students are taught at home to respect authorities. Teachers in return respect the students. A friend of mine was called a "white cracker", and "dumb white bitch". When she called the parents, only a few responded. The administrator did little or nothing. So yeah, while some tenured teachers need to leave, because they are no good, a whole picture and setting needs to be looked at first!
I know many, many people who have come through the Teach America program. The program gets a lot of hype but they cannot even last a year in the class. I'm not saying none of them but I will look at 14 people who I knew that came through the program only 1 lasted. The others left. They couldn't handle the children. They were made to believe that a teacher's job was easy. Some tried to last long for the next 3 to five years to so that they wouldn't have to pay those monies back. Blame teachers???
Rhee talks a good fight, but the reality is that she couldn't cut it as a teacher and left for administration. She thinks that by using the revolving door of fresh meat from Teach for America (the majority leave after 2 years once their contracts are up) is the solution. Let's see Rhee stick with it for a decade if she truly believes in her spiel. If she's still standing and has achieved the results then we'll believe her.
Michelle Rhee is too cocky and she doesn't address the issues that teachers face, and just wants to be divisive so she can get her way.
The main problem is that there ar enot enough resources and that the parents don't instill a respect for academics.
There are a lot of bad teachers, but there are not enough teachers in general to teach. 30+ kids is too many to get anything done. Independent schools have ratios of 1:8, that is why those students get into competitive colleges.
@AntaresInScorpius BULLSHIT! "Bad parenting" is a LAME EXCUSE to turn the spotlight from the GREEDY cockroaches in the teacher unions. Sure their is greed on Wall Street and in casinos, but their is a LOT of greed in unions too!
I was a victim of "bad parenting" too, but I would've been RELIEVED if the public schools would've my oasis, instead, I went from abuse in home to school bullies because the schools TOLERATE bullies because they receive MONEY for EVERY WARM BODY in class!
@HearingEveryRhyme Did you know that countries who are successful in math and sciences have 50 students in their class. The issue here is not class size but students in elementary can't even solve basic elem. math. Go to my videos at youtube .. channel .. lionking4277 .... and watch how I teach., 100% of my class starts solving with me within minutes of instruction. I could fill the whole auditorium and it won't matter. They all start solving with me. Spread my site to all teachers. It works!
The IMPACT evaluations are BIASED and lead to FAVORITISM ! Mean-spirited and UNFAIR!
The majority of the teachers fired were OLDER, BLACK WOMEN who had a vested interest in the community. They were fully credentialled and had years of experience.
They were replaced with YOUNG, WHITE, inexperienced kids who were temporary "slumming" through the ghetto.
BLATANT DISCRIMINATION and OUTRIGHT RACISM!
Michelle Rhee has NO RESPECT for teachers, and often refers to them with disdain!
@MsJanetWood black culture is the true problem. black kids should not have to have it imposed on them to work hard, not steal and not be a menace to society. this should be built into their culture and come from their parents. black culture glorifies a lack of education, violence, promiscuity, etc. and that's the REAL problem that no one is talking about
My point is this. If there is to be standards in the classroom then those standards need to be governed by what is in the best interest of the kids who are sent to school with the intention that they will be able to survive in the competitive global jungle. There are folks, like me, who would rather live on a farm raising my own children with the collected works of Plato and St. Augustine, but since the vast majority of people don't want that, they need to be equipped to do the other thing well.
@BandofSorensons If you are coerced into 12 hour daily educational drill and have to time, energy or guidance for cultivating a soul, you will never develop into a human being capable of choosing to live on a farm reading Augustine or Plato. You will automatically choose the jungle. And you will live in a way that makes alternative choices less and less likely and possible. It is a million times harder to break into academe than it was twenty years ago. Fewer posts, and more applicants.
Here is my simple answer. Go to YouTube channel... lionking4277... watch my videos on how to teach basic elem. math the easiest way ever. It will change a teacher the way they teach in just minutes of watching my videos..... thank you... john j.
I'm a Senior in High School and I do not love anything more in this world than Children. I'm going to college to become a teacher. I hope I can help students in the future.
Teacher "X" teaches 5 classes. He teaches 3 Algebra classes, 1 Advanced Algebra class, and 1 remedial class. His first four classes are okay, but his last class is utter chaos!
Why?
Is it because the class has 43 students instead of 35?
Or maybe because the majority of the students don't speak English?
Could it be that it's late in the day and the kids are tired?
Or maybe, just maybe, the kids are DOWN-RIGHT LAZY?
Stop blaming the hard-working, dedicated teachers!
The kids that talk loud and laugh during the movie! The ones that throw popcorn at the screen! The ones that run up and down the movie aisles. The ones that keep getting up to go to the bathroom! Those kids!
Do you think those kids could sit down for a 45 minute Math Lesson?
They can't sit still during a movie! You think they are going to pay attention to their math teacher?
So, who do we blame? The teacher? The administrators? The parents? Or the kids?
@MsJanetWood Yes. I believe that those kids, under the right guidance, could be great students, sitting down 45 minutes for a math lesson. I believe that for any student.
@rbrtchng Well, good luck in your new job teaching in the inner city. I really do hope you can reach those kids. There are a few unique teachers like Jaime Escalante that can create miracles, but most teachers are average.
Again, good luck! I will pray for you! I hope you never lose sight of your goal. I think most teachers start off with the best intentions, and then the whole system just beats them up! The kids, the parents, the administration, society, nobody understands or cares
@MsJanetWood You've just described every child that is not somehow rendered unconscious. Perhaps an inept math lesson from someone who barely made it out of college and who does not actually understand mathematics (in operation or in its nature) would help lull such precocious children (all children) to sleep. That's how I got through public school.
@massilivefly I'm sorry, but I don't believe it! If she had been that successful, she would have stayed in the classroom.
It has been my experience that most people that go into administration are people who could not handle the classroom. Then, they spend the rest of their lives playing "arm-chair quarterback" and pretending to be educational experts!
@MsJanetWood This is silly. 1) Most people go into administration simply because the pay is so much greater 2) There is no good reason to believe that Rhee left teaching just because she struggled with it, especially in light of the fact that it is fairly obvious why she left teaching since she basically tells us: she never intended to be a full-time teacher and is instead interested in public policy and education reform, which explains why she does what she does in the first place.
@BandofSorensons (re: @MsJanetWood) You really ought to spend some time in a classroom. The teachers are beyond exhausted. They're given virtually no time at work to grade papers, prepare report cards, etc. That's done late into the evenings and over the weekend. And being in constant contact with children -- many of whom have emotional and cognitive issues -- is a drain. Administrators work hard, too, but believe me, when they leave the classroom, they are escaping an unsustainable situation.
I would like to inform you of a job opening at McGavock High School in Nashville Tennessee.
An Algebra teacher, Mr.Donald Wood recently was let go . . . Perhaps, this is your opportunity to prove that you are just not an arm-chair quarterback. I want to see you do it! 3 months! That is all!
Hey, if you think you're qualified to evaluate teachers, then, you should be able to teach, right?
@BandofSorensons: Do you really believe that 140,000 kids missing more than a month of school is good? That it can be blamed on teachers? I'm going to assume you're joking; because I can't believe you'd be that obtuse.
@viall4diabetes When did I say that it was good? I merely suggested that it could have been justified insofar as the various causes for that purported phenomenon are complex. Why put the blame on kids/parents? Why not blame teachers and administrators? Teachers often have little to teach because they often know little themselves. I had public school teachers who struggled with algebra & English. I might have shown up to school more often if I didn't realize that it was often a waste of time.
@BandofSorensons: I cite specific examples from my 33 years of teaching because Rhee (who lasted 3) is so prone to simplistic statements. Apparently, she never MET any bad parents. Is anyone so foolish as to say they don't exist? In the NYC schools in 2009, 140,000 kids missed a month of classes or more last year. Do you expect teachers to use telepathic powers to educate students who don't show? Even Teach for America idealists (who only commit to 2 years) couldn't do that?
@viall4diabetes She is very careful to qualify her position with the admission that social ills endured by these children matter. Why does it matter that you were a teacher for 33 years? Rhee's career is not reducible to 3 years with teach for America, she has dedicated her life to education reform. Maybe those kids were better off missing class when their teachers are hardly educated themselves. How frustrating is it to show up for something you know is pointless? That's how I felt in school.
@BandofSorensons You just don"t get it . We can not teach students who do not show up. I have talked to parents who do not see the need to make their children go to school.Most teachers want to help kids and need someone with class room experience on their side in administration. Ms. Rhee did not teach long enough to help young teachers. She has political ambitions and s advancing herself at teachers expense. Just another grand stander who has no solutions other than to fire people.
@alansjf33 I think that we are operating within entirely different paradigms. I believe that teachers ought to provide a good reason for kids to show up in the first place, rather than arbitrarily expecting kids to just come. In my experience it is justified that kids would not want to waste their time. Why is it that so many people believe what is needed here is "class room experience" when it is so easy to offer counter examples showing that "experience" does not entail effective teaching?
I'd like to see a reality show where Michelle Rhee teaches Remedial Math at a junior high in the inner-city! 5 classes with 35 students each! 5 days a week for at least 3 months! Then, a panel of education experts can critique her teaching!
Arm-chair quarterback? Back-seat driver? Delusions of grandeur?
Saturdays? Do you plan on paying teachers for this? Rhee, you are a complete grandstanding hack who spent 3 whole years in a classroom. If you can get buy in from parents you can be successful and you lucked out in your second year. After your third mediocre year you decided to play know it all and your act worked for a little while. Now, your job is to look for a new job.
@Chrisrokk239 Well, yes, I think that is the idea isn't it? Pay teachers wages applicable to highly educated/motivated professionals and then demand the kind of output that is to be expected of such professionals. The truth about teaching, today, is that it attracts the lowest common denominator of "college graduates" who simply fall into the task because, quite frankly, it is really easy to get hired and easy to languish in. Most everyone else goes on to professional school and internships.
Unlike Rhee, hundreds of thousands of good teachers work for ten, twenty and thirty years. Rhee did 3 years, including two working with a UNION teacher in a cooperative way.
I used to teach. I had one mother who let her son miss 106 days of school in a single year. I had a girl in seventh grade whose father abused her sexually, And I had plenty of parents who complained because we gave TOO much homework. You have to be naive to believe that teachers are the whole problem in education.
@viall4diabetes Well many inept teachers continue to work, unchallenged, for ten, twenty, and thirty years. I come from a backwards/poor school system and I had plenty of inept teachers who had been inept for decades. The amount of time they work is not sufficient for good teaching. It may not even be necessary. I'm not sure why you think having specific examples of social problems among your students is pertinent. What is the upshot of that? Give up? Why have a school at all?
10/13/10 Union vermin just got rid of her. Her mayor lost and she thinks she has to resign. The reason the mayor lost the Democratic primary was because of her radical changes to the crap DC school system, which were very sorely needed. The other candidate was a complete union slave.
1. You just said you got the parents on board.....PLEASE, if the parents aren't in the picture, how can kids do 2 hours of homework on their own?
2. Where is the proof of your "miraculous" test scores?
3. Your first year was a wash. If TFA teach for two years (about how long they stay) we are getting a 50% success rate. Is this a better success rate than teachers who stay and get better each year? Seems that "career" teachers would have better success due to the long run.
@mrskorn 1) They can. It doesn't necessarily follow that kids with bad home circumstances are rendered incapable of doing homework. If they are given a reason and have a knowledgeable/passionate guide then this is possible. 2) Increased test scores among students with better prepared, motivated teachers isn't a miracle. I'm starting to think that it is pretty much a fact. 3) She accomplished a great deal in 3 years, and if anything, ought to be celebrated for challenging an inept/corrupt system.
@mrskorn (1) Primary students might be more focussed if they had worthwhile instruction and classroom leadership. I see no reason to think that they cannot do homework. (2 & 3) DCPS publicly posts the information you are looking for on their website. Since she began there have been gains in student achievement. The Washington Post also mentions this in the 8/19/2010 issue. I don't know what you are referring to in Baltimore. Surely she fired inept teachers, and I never heard about her chauffeur.
This may come across as incredibly shallow, especially because what she's speaking about is so vitally important to the country and our culture, but....man, for some reason, I find Michelle Rhee SO HOT!!
@MsJanetWood Can you post a link to a credible source indicating that test scores went down? Being a "fully credentialed" public school teacher doesn't mean very much. It certainly doesn't necessitate being an actual good teacher. If she replaced those positions with white teachers it is only accidental insofar as, as a matter of fact, the vast majority of candidates with the credentials she's after happen to be white or asian. Teachers can teach for many more than 3 years and still be bad.
Furthermore, being a FULLY-CREDENTIALLED TEACHER means that after having PASSED all your classes and required tests, you DONATE your TIME and TEACH FOR FREE under a MASTER TEACHER for a period of 6 to 8 months! It is rigourous process with frequent evaluations from the university professor, as well as the master teacher!
"Taping your kids mouths with tapes" like Ms. Rhee did to her students, would probably lead to a GRADE OF FAIL!
@MsJanetWood I attempted to look it up but I have failed to find anything that demonstrates your claim that "test scores, in general, all fell". I don't think you understand my point and I have to vehemently disagree. Such credentials are obviously NOT enough to necessitate a good teacher. Education, as an academic field, is a low achieving field in general and it does not require that much rigor to succeed in it. To the extent of finishing and getting a job. I know the system and it's a scam.
@BandofSorensons@BandofSorensons Elementary school teachers CANNOT major in Education! They must major in ANYTHING, but EDUCATION! They must have a B.A. degree from a 4 year university. Once, they have their degree in Business, Politics, History, Literature, Foreign Languages, Biology, Chemistry, etc., they can apply to a GRADUATE PROGRAM where they can pursue their TEACHING CREDENTIAL!
Just like police officers working in the inner-city, teachers are UNDER-APPRECIATED and UNDER-PAID!
@MsJanetWood Many people major in things like "child education" etc in college thus never acquiring the kind of BA you describe. Further, getting teaching credentials is absolutely nothing like graduate school as it pertains to academic disciplines. They have almost nothing in common and they have radically divergent standards and minimum requirements. Teachers are not under-appreciated or paid insofar as they are incompetent. The job ought to pay more, however, for those qualified.
This is straight comedy. By her "logic" we should only allow recent Ivy league grads do all jobs of substance. Training, years of experience, logic, whatever.
To date, there has been absolutely no documentation of these test scores (or the 35 students per teacher which clearly violates the law in Maryland). Are teachers in DC given the option of making decisions about classroom structure as she states she was? Are veteran teachers respected for the insight and assistance they provide to new teachers? Additionally, Rhee says she got buy in from the parents--she has not made a significant attempt to do that in DCPS.
Not to demean the woman's intellect or trivialize the importance of the subject but she's kind of cute! Not a great face but a pretty nice body. Nice overall package especially when you consider how incredibly bright she seems to be. I'll bet Kevin Johnson enjoys tappin' that over-achieving, Asian-American ass!
the united States has a Horrible attitude toward teachers! Because of this US schools will always be inferior to schools in other countries!!
In countries like India teachers are revered! Students in these countries work so hard in school. There is so much respect for teachers in India and other Asian countries!!
Parents in the US need to be much more involved in their child's education and take Responsibility!!!
of course the expectations were high for her, asian immigrants place greater emphasis on education than other ethnic groups.... now ifother families would put more effort and focus on their children's education, there wouldn't be such a great need for this program.
@therealnicemike absolutely, and one other important point...most of the Asian children when they come in as English learners, they still far out pace the children from poorer homes, where the parents do not motivate for success.
This is excellent, I'm a High school student In DC, I'm also in Chancellor Rhee's High school Cabinet. I don't know why so many people don't agree or don't like Chancellor Rhee, (At least in DC) there is a lot of positive change going on. She Knows what she's doing
Point to an elite group of teachers from a program "tougher to get into than Harvard" and say: "They can do it, so everyone should be able to." Start cutting pink slips.
How is that different from pointing to a few rags-to-riches stories, saying: "They can do it, so everyone should be able to" and then cutting programs for the underprivileged?
Rhee's silver-spoon/silver-bullet cadre is little more than an excuse to scapegoat. Systemic problems are hard, and require bigger brains than hers.
@anomalogue : and yet she got results. And yet teachers who's students were doing the worst got thrown out. And yet those who remain got the fear of god put in them that if they goof off they'll be thrown out. And yet those of us working outside schools in corporate America know to work with a "right to work state" mentality, and the quality stays high, even with the usual dead weight of bureaucracies and office politicians challenging our very commitment to excellence at work.
We need to stop letting classroom escapees dictate what goes on in the classroom. They dip in for a few years then get the hell out and play know-it-all for the rest of their lives.
Here's an idea for reform: 1) All school administrators should have 10 interrupted years of classroom experience before moving into administration. 2) Every four years administrators should be required to return to the classroom for a full year. 3) Same for all university professors who teach K12 education.
Certainly, some young, ambitious, idealistic 20-somethings with Ivy league degrees can work relentlessly nights and weekends bringing up test scores for a few years before escaping the classroom by dropping out of the profession or getting a fat promotion into administration -- but does it make sense to behave as if all teachers should be able to do that -- and for decades on end, beyond their youths into adulthood, parenthood, and into their 40s, 50s and beyond?
@anomalogue : this is a fair point. Clearly the teacher needs to be obsessed with and concerned with education, more than merely collecting a paycheck. I certainly remember both kinds in school, too. Some in disciplines I never pursued after HS, yet the inspirational ones inspired me anyway.
@anomalogue Yes. All teachers should aim to be as competent as those ambitious, idealistic 20 somethings with Ivy league degrees. That would be a very good change in the right direction, if it were a norm.
@BandofSorensons Listen, I am absolutely not disagreeing that IF we had sufficient numbers of idealistic 20 somethings with Ivy league degrees the kids would benefit. But we do not have this workforce, and we do not compensate teachers enough to attract people like this in sufficient numbers. My concern is Rhee uses the performance of highly trained and inspired young teachers as a standard, by which she can justify using fear tactics against a demoralized and undercompensated workforce.
@anomalogue I see what you're saying, but why not just raise the pay and the bar simultaneously? If they are really just "demoralized" and not incompetent then the boost in pay along with the increase in hard working, intelligent coworkers ought to go far in the direction of re-inspiring them to do the kind of job they probably should have been doing all along. If they fail in this then, well, maybe they would be better suited doing something else? Something less challenging.
@BandofSorensons Yes. If we change the system as a whole -- including management, compensation, training -- then it is fair to expect higher performance. Without these changes, the standards are only a coercive device. And absolutely: purge the incompetents -- but not only teachers, but also administrators, and also incompetent educational theorists. There's too much fantasy in the educational profession.
@anomalogue I agree very strongly with you that administrators need to be held just as accountable as teachers in all of this. I also strongly agree that "education" as a theoretical endeavor is a total wash (silly if anything). A comprehensive overhaul akin to what you just described, is, I think, way over due.
@BandofSorensons That was really what I was trying to get at: placing disproportional emphasis on individual incompetent teachers distracts from a much deeper problem in the system as a whole. And I am not at all convinced that Rhee herself is not a part of this systemic problem. My concern centers on standardized tests. Tests should measure the effectiveness of education, but higher test scores are not the goal of education. In the absence of clear vision, they've become just that.
@anomalogue I agree that it is an unrealistic expectation. But to put it in perspective, don't doctors do the same? Go to medical school, working hard relentlessly as residentials, and then staying a doctor for decades? Why is that expected? Because they see their jobs as a serious profession. Their jobs save lives. Teaching, while may not appear to directly affect lives, does indeed influence the course of students' lives. Should teachers not work just as hard as doctors in their own field?
@PagingDrAsian I hate to be obvious, but the medical profession attracts highly ambitious people because it compensates them. Teachers make significantly less. Rhee takes advantage of fresh, idealistic kids with elite educations, with low living expenses and no history of burnout and does a sneaky Taylorism move. Measures their performance and uses it as a stick to coerce the same out of people with much higher time and energy commitments, who have suffered with low wages and poor management...
@anomalogue You've got a point there that she's not mentioning all scopes of teachers here but maybe she's got a point in saying that it is what teachers should strive for, in general. Teaching is just as important as many other professions out there and we should expect the standard to be as high as possible. Hey, at least Canada's talking about providing more incentives for teachers in the panel discussion for Waiting for Superman. If we could just get the system on board...
@PagingDrAsian And maybe if there were enough of these young teachers available we could replace the whole teaching field with new blood. But I am not so sure these young kids will be able to sustain their energy levels, esp if they ever get married and have kids. Do we want teaching to be a field with a ~5 year turnover? I feel like nobody is looking at the question of sustainability in the profession.
@dsf1224 Oh boy, another hard-nosed realist. It's so simple: "Why not expect the best?" This is NOT realism -- it is a common and destructive form of rationalist delusion. You have to manage to REALITY. Teachers are not compensated well enough to attract talent in large numbers. Along comes Rhee. She recruits and trains elite teachers, driven by youthful idealism, benchmarks (a la Fredrick Taylor) their performance and uses coercion and threats to accomplish what inspiration achieved.
@anomalogue This is not "realism" insofar as it is pretty clear that you are just stating, without evidence, a presupposition about facts that are not actually known. Namely, that the model for education reform proposed by Michele Rhee will not work. However, in light of the fact that she has had real, measurable success, the burden of proof then falls on you or anyone else who would reject this model on the grounds of a purported "realism". There is nothing realistic about question begging.
@BandofSorensons There's two directions to take this. One will never resolve, which is this: what are we measuring when we measure teacher effectiveness? We can measure comprehension of facts and the ability to perform various skills, but the more important dimension of education is unmeasurable. not that facts and skills are dispensable, but we've grown so obsessed with maximizing measurable success that there's no time left for the rest -- the essence of education. But this is unarguable...
@anomalogue I think what you are hinting at is something that I am sympathetic to and it is the question of what a education ought to really be about. I think that what drives the disagreement is that one camp sees education in a humanistic light. That is, as the betterment of humanity. The other sees it as a matter of sheer economic utility. If the latter, then it is clear what we ought to measure. Black and white outcomes. If the former, it is not something really altogether measurable.
@BandofSorensons ...But my "realism" comment was aimed at the idea that we can "expect the most" from teachers, punish/eliminate them if they fail to live up to our expectations, and think that's going to get us the best possible results. I'm all for high expectations, but let's look at the whole problem and figure out the best possible way to realize them, instead of turning our aspirations into threats.
@anomalogue I think that the danger here is to put these two philosophical approaches to education in opposition to each other. I think I am inclined to say that public schools should focus on the economic model of what an education is because this is something that can be tested and governed effectively. Kids don't go to school, or college, to become sages but to acquire requisite knowledge for operating within our incentive driven society. Is it right? No, but it is why people go to school.
@BandofSorensons But they are in opposition. The relentless teaching to tests displaces not only paideia, it occupies all a child's waking hours. Children today have far less free time to follow their own interests, so socialize and learn political skills. We've become so sure that we know what a child needs that we leave no room for anything but the training we think they need. We're cultivating cubicle occupants, not human beings. Why? Because we lack the education to approach it differently.
@anomalogue A trade approach to education exists out of necessity. A humanities education has become mostly irrelevant (outside of personal interest) and in its wake lies the challenge of a high degree of specialization in the applied sciences, business, and law (among others). In order to rise to the reality of this technocracy, that is demanded by our society, kids need to be tested in a specific skill set. This way they can do well on the SAT, go forward, and specialize.
@BandofSorensons A humanities education has not become irrelevant simply because its value is unacknowledged. When purely technical training for a profession passes for education, and those who have received this training are mistaken for educated and occupy stations requiring education, the result is precisely the sort of inhuman functionalist excesses we see everywhere today. It takes education to see the value of education. We don't see it. We enslave ourselves because that's all we know.
@anomalogue I agree with what you are saying here but I still have doubts about whether or not this sort of education ought to fall within the domain of a public education. What we are talking about is a value laden education and there are just too many disagreements about that should constitute while there is almost no disagreement about what kids need to know in order to do well in college and in their respective careers. I don't think people need formal training in ethics to know evil/good.
@BandofSorensons I do not accept the relegation of wisdom to monasteries and libraries. When too many people who have been given the gifts of discernment fail to question and resist the common assumption that meaning has no place in "the world", and shirk their cultural duty by treating their learning as a hobby or indulgence the world becomes uninhabitable. It's natural for crass minds to think strictly quantitatively, but if you've been given more, more is expected from you.
@anomalogue I agree, however, I am honestly just not sure about pursuing such higher things as part and parcel to a formal education. Indeed, I would say doing so in college is actually counter to one's aim insofar as the humanities, as taught at most schools, are a jumbled heap of nonsense and that people do well not to waste their time or money. I think many professionals will continue to seek wisdom in spite of never meeting it in school. It's human nature to desire to know and live well.
@BandofSorensons Now I'm going to sound just like the purveyors of jumbled nonsense. There is no such thing as values-neutral education, and what we have now is actually aggressively values-laden. It places value in certain domains of knowledge, and places no value in others. As a result of these values there is no concern for whether a child endowed with ability and need in these areas can pursue them independently. This is doubly true for talented students.
@anomalogue I agree that all possible educational formats presuppose some kind of value in the sense that in the process of deciding what ought to be taught one has prejudged what is worth being taught. However, I think that what seems to make the most sense, given our circumstances, is an education most fit to succeeding in terms of those circumstances which is one rooted in factual knowledge and not questions about the good life that most people seem to grasp and yet argue vehemently about.
@BandofSorensons I guess you're right. We've neglected the liberal arts for so long, we're so poorly educated in civility, our nation has lost its capacity to deliberate on anything related to values or culture. (Can't be an absolutist or a pluralist!) We're even losing our capacity to agree on facts. But things have a way of working themselves out, don't they? The Invisible Hand works in mysterious ways. In that we trust.
@BandofSorensons It is not enough to rise to the reality of technocracy. Responsibility demands we rise above it and direct it, so techne becomes a tool of man, rather than man a tool of techne. But from pre-K on public education drills kids relentlessly, inculcates them with passivity, breaks them so they just fall in, and participate in reality as given. Even would-be philosophers accept conventional wisdom and fail to question what they're told, that they can be a professor or a hobbyist.
@anomalogue I think you are right to point out that humanity seems to serve tech. interests as opposed to it being the other way around (as it clearly ought to be). I think that this is a function of our rather complicated social circumstances which are, I think, driven by a perceived need for comfort and the desire to cheat death. The value of an education has become one in which we hope a child will "cure cancer" or "innovate" some new convenience for market. Few stop to ask if this is right.
@BandofSorensons Here's the core of my concern: I think application of a liberal arts education in practical life can slow or reverse technocratization. When a culture quarantines their thinkers in universities and home studies, technology grows autonomous, and humans become morally passive participants in whatever happens. -- Think of what happened when the Russian intelligentsia fled Russia in the 19th century. Liberal arts people keep a nation conscious, sane and fully human.
@anomalogue I disagree here as I think that technocratization is a function of an innate human desire to be comfortable and live as long as possible and thus that, really, tech. dominates our interests only as long as our interests are what they are by nature: to survive w/o pain. This is why people think this kind of education is good because it is more useful for this end. Who needs poets when you might have a surgeon instead? Values/ethics are projections of the heart and are unanalyzable.
@BandofSorensons My concern is that cubicle training is not an education that will allow us to transmit our national tradition. A free nation must have a sizable portion of its population educated for citizenship. But not only are we not taking this need seriously. We don't even keep it alive as adults. It's all about our jobs, houses and portfolios. We seem to think that as long as we've got our Constitution, the tradition will take care of itself -- if we even think about it at all..
@anomalogue I'm not really too concerned with the values of a good citizenry, b/c I have doubts about ideological solutions in the first place. Free nations are composed of an educated/virtuous populace and yet I know of no so such society either now or in history and I doubt it will ever come to pass by any natural means. There are those few people out there who truly love the good and true, but they are exceedingly rare. So rare that we ought not put our hope in them but in what is present.
@dsf1224 Because you get what you pay for. Rhee wants to use Taylorist techniques to wring inspired performance out of a beleaguered, unsupported, exhausted workforce. The youthful idealists she uses as a benchmark are motivated by excitement, hope and feeling a part of a movement. If she used her coercive fear tactics on them, their lights would be snuffed out, and they'd probably perform worse, too. See Daniel Pink's TED talk (the RSA one is good, too) on what really motivates professionals.
@anomalogue Isn't it true that the same "tactics" are applicable to those ideologue teachers just as much as anyone else? Why shouldn't they be excited to do what they are doing? Why is it that an indifferent complacency is somehow a permissible norm with regards to teachers? I think it is silly to take a reductive stance on what motivates most professionals, but I would bet it is some combination of power or money.
@BandofSorensons Obviously indifferent complacency is unacceptable. I believe our disagreement centers on how to change that attitude. It seems many people think "indifference" is the result of not fearing the consequences of not working hard or not being tantalized by rewards. I think the more common case is burnout. Teachers work insane hours, are under incredible stress, and are scrutinized and criticized from every angle. Skinnerism can't fix this sort of problem...
@anomalogue I think that lots of professionals work excessive hours with excessive stress: doctors, lawyers, politicians, bankers, etc. It's just that these people get two things that teachers lack: prestige from a public that views such jobs as "important" and financial compensation. People persists in these challenging professions, more often than not, because the rewards simply outweigh the cost. Teachers are often looked at as people who couldn't hack it in the professional world.
@BandofSorensons ...However, I don't deny that there are some crappy teachers out there who should not be teaching. And I also think there are talented teachers out there who chose other professions because they needed to make a decent living. So I'm not against firing incompetents and raising salaries, per se. But NOT in the spirit of reward or punishment. And it cannot be used as a red herring to distract from the systemic problems...
@anomalogue I agree about not losing sight of other problems but as it stands there is a strong case that the chief problem is an unacceptable labor pool. In every other professional endeavor you are rewarded for excellence and punished for incompetence. For too many years teaching has provided a kind of cozy retreat for college graduates who want to avoid such pressures. It's time to attract those who don't want an easy way out of such difficulties or who simply fell into the job.
@BandofSorensons ... (last one) And finally, we've got to figure out how to create conditions where teachers actually can make a career of teaching. Listen to Rhee's story, how much time & energy she put into it. That is not something people can do for years. Should a teaching careers burn white hot for 5 years then crash? This is what I meant by managing to reality. How can we get enough good teachers into the system and retain them and have have widespread success? People aren't disposable.
@anomalogue I think that most fields dominated by educated people are this way. When I worked in business this kind of attitude was expected of me. I know that in the future this will be expected of me. Is it right? I am not so sure, but if I want to compete and remain in the professional system, so to speak, then I best persist with diligence. Incentives keep the world moving forward, teachers have no such incentives and they eventually crumple under the shear lack of expectations. I would.
@BandofSorensons Why aren't you in business now? ... I think the way people work is making our culture sick. And honestly, this has a lot more to do with the problems in our schools than bad teachers. Parents prioritize their careers over their children, and try to foist their parental duties on teachers -- then we blame the teachers for not being able to parent 20-30+ feral, sleepless, malnourished children and keep their scores in an upward trajectory.
@anomalogue I agree that our culture is overworked, overstressed, and detrimentally preoccupied with material gain and superficial prosperity. I don't work now b/c I quit my job to go back to school. Our schools are riddled with problems at all levels. In large part the challenge is the general aim of educating everyone whether they think they want it or not. But good, inspiring teachers might be the best hope such unfortunate people have at rectifying their stance toward wisdom.
I think it's excellent that Michelle and her fellow teacher raised the achievement levels so high for their group of students. As a young teacher myself, I find it hard to find that balance of commitment though. She mentioned coming in before and after school and on Saturdays. If every teacher did this I think their family lives, health, and overall well-being would be compromised. I think many things in our society need to be improved for a SUSTAINABLE system, not just teachers.
the united States has a Horrible attitude toward teachers! Because of this US schools will always be inferior to schools in other countries!!
In countries like India teachers are revered! Students in these countries work so hard in school. There is so much respect for teachers in India and other Asian countries!!
Parents in the US need to be much more involved in their child's education and take Responsibility!!!
Unfortunately, school advocates in the city say that Rhee is the most secretive superintendent in memory, as well as the one who demonstrates the least understanding of budgeting
This woman is so full of shit. Do a little research on her, and you'll quickly see that she has a nasty little habit of saying things that can't be substantiated at all. "Oh, I did this, and I did this, and the kids improved, and the test scores went up, etc. etc. blah blah blah". Yet, when pressed, she can never lay hands on any documents and such to back any of her lies up. She'd make an excellent politician.
hotfingersandwich 6 days ago
NEVER MIND THAT BITCH TALKING BOUT GIVING 2 HOURS OF DAMN HOMEWORK FUCT THAT I MEAN I GET ABOUT 30 MIN MAX A DAY FOR ALL MY CLASES AND IM GETTING A'S AND B'S FUCK YOU MICHELLE RHEE FUCK YOU
michaelperez36 2 weeks ago
MMHH I WANNA FUCK HER
michaelperez36 2 weeks ago
@neelantra Okay. First of all, let's get one thing straight. It is completely inappropriate for you to be calling kids "shitty." Not only does that comment have no moral value, but it is completely irrelevant to the problem at hand. Children are not "shitty." If they are misbehaved and inattentive in class, it is because the parents have not done a right job with instilling them with the moral values they need to succeed in a classroom. Every child has the potential, ability and want to learn.
raynica94 2 weeks ago
so weird why would a new teacher be given the the students who had the most challenges academically and behaviorally? shouldn't it be the more experienced teachers?
minididi42 2 months ago
she's a korean version of rosie o'donnel, along with the bullshit vomit coming out of her disgusting mouth.
neelantra 2 months ago
The fact is that Discipline is a prequisite befor learning. Most of these shitty kids have NO interest in learning at all. If behaviour is good, and the student values education, teaching and learning is a breeze.
neelantra 2 months ago
Rhee knows about one-tenth of what she thinks she does. See: ateacheronteaching.blogspot.com: Lady with a Broom: Michelle Rhee
viall4diabetes 2 months ago
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2:16 Michelle Rhee claims that she took 90% of her students from the 13th percentile to the 90th percentile or above in less than 2 years!
Isn’t that statistically impossible? “Normal Distribution”? “Bell Curve”?
Why hasn’t anyone interviewed her former students? Or their parents? Or her former principal? Or her former co-workers? Her fellow teachers?
Where's the proof of her academic success?
The public deserves to know the truth!
MsJanetWood 2 months ago
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If the reformers are right, why have SAT scores decline slowly but steadily since 2002 when they took charge? (Scores fell in Rhee's own district of D. C.) See: ateacheronteaching.blogspot.com.
viall4diabetes 4 months ago
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Teach for America is a lost cause anyway. Most of the teachers are college grads who couldn't get into medical/law/graduate school or find a real job. They don't give two shits about inner city kids. They just use the Teach for America program to fill in the blank for a year or two on their resumes. And even if they did care, the inner city kids are doomed to a life of poverty and petty crime. Nothing anyone can do about that.
bostonewyork1 5 months ago
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bostonewyork1 5 months ago
Interesting... It is impossible to rate comments up or down. Curious.
Werebat 6 months ago
Why do we listen to Michelle Rhee? She lasted three years in the D. C. schools and antagonized parents. From 2006-2007 to 2008-09, attendance in her district declined to 88%, meaning the average kid stayed home 21.6 days. That has nothing to do with teachers and everything to do with parents...unless you fault teachers for lacking telepathic powers. During the same period, SAT scores in Rhee's district dropped on average from 1217 to 1196, down in all areas, reading, math and writing.
viall4diabetes 6 months ago
PEOPLE PEOPLE - OUR SCHOOL SYSTEM IS SO OUT OF PLACE AND SHIT FOR OUR CHILDREN - AT LEAST THERE IS A VOICE OF CONCERN - YOU PEOPLE GOING ON ABOUT HOW FRAUDULENT MICHELLE IS - YOU TRY THE JOB
FreneticKey 6 months ago
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I think Rhee simplifies everything when she says education is all about teachers. See: ateacheronteaching.blogspot.com. Read the post on "Michelle Rhee and the Dumb Judge
viall4diabetes 8 months ago
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Born here or not - you can't take the slope out of a slope; she's a simple crook, and banking on Americans to be too candy-ass to investigate then levy harsh justice for chong-hong trash-level forgery for grand fraud. As in Unforgiven should pay $20 a head to clear 'em out then no votes unless Aussie style 'no crap imegrations' is part of the platform! :0 What an ugly little crook with unnatural, - not it's - teeth. Yech!!
fuhmeregan 9 months ago
What a fraud.
rjdc1991 9 months ago
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In the WAITING FOR SUPERMAN movie, Geoffrey Canada states, " I actually know how hard it is to be a GOOD teacher. It took me 3 years to become a DECENT teacher, BEFORE I really LEARNED my CRAFT. And then in about 5 years, I was a MASTER teacher."
Ironically, 50% of NEW teachers QUIT within 5 years.
Inner-city schools are innundated with NEW teachers, because once a teacher gains EXPERIENCE, she moves to a school in the suburbs. Schools where the kids actually listen to the teacher.
MsJanetWood 10 months ago
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She is so full of shit.
murdledd 10 months ago
This rancid human LIED about her test scores. It came out in the Washington Post, if anyone is interested go to the post site and read the article and her response to being outed. The woman lied.
NiobeJones 10 months ago
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Rhee not only was abusive to children during her BRIEF classroom experience, falsified test scores throughout her career, and offered victims of child sexual abuse payoffs for not reporting such allegations against Kevin Johnson, founder of St. Hope charter schools in Sacramento.
She's a fraud, a liar, and potentially a criminal...
How THIS cunt has been given a public platform to tout hate against teachers and their unions is demonstrable of her willingness to sell her soul...
bbbbmer 10 months ago
@bbbbmer LOL! Conservatives are hellbent on destroying public education, they'l buy the most stupid bullshit imaginable.
robertmike57 9 months ago
@bbbbmer this is a comlpete lie an undoubtedly came from someone that prefers to protect overpaid teachers who generate no good results and who spend more time collecting their paychecks than investing proper time in students. Every child, regardless of circumstances can learn.WELL DONE MICHELLE RHEE!!!!!!!!!!!!
sakinah291 5 months ago
@bbbbmer CLEARLY THIS IS ONE OF THOSE OVERPAID TEACHERS.
MICHELLE RHEE IS AN INSPIRING ADVOCATE FOR KIDS. KEEP IT UP MICHELLE
sakinah291 5 months ago
So -- why did Michelle leave her kids in the lurch??
HollywoodGuy48 10 months ago
The 7 dislikes are some of THE most SELFISH people on earth!
carnivorerepublican 11 months ago
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In foreign countries, there is no SOCIAL PROMOTION. If a student fails, he must repeat the entire year . . . AGAIN!
In America, it is literally impossible to "flunk" a student!
A teacher must attend a "special retention meeting", where she must present her case to a panel of experts.
Even, if the team agrees to retain the student, the parents can still veto their decision!
That is how you end up with junior high kids that don't know their time tables and read at a 2nd grade level!
MsJanetWood 11 months ago 2
Having see Rhee lecture in person a few times, I can see why people in DC approved of the job she did, but not of her. She deserves a medal for her obvious dedication and efforts...and also a slap across the chops for being a total b***h about it. She is one of the most obnoxiously smug and rude people I have ever seen. For someone who cares so much about education, she could stand a few lessons in bedside manners.
dkupke 11 months ago
@dkupke Not to be too gruff about it, but FUCK THAT!!!
The time for being nice is over.
This has been going on for decades. We don't have time to coddle people anymore.
Do what's right for the kids or get the fuck out of my school.
Plain and simple
EchoMike03 11 months ago
@dkupke You are a moron.
UCSDEngineerDoctor 4 months ago
Michelle's goal is to put a safety net to all our kids by putting student first. We adults have gave up on our kids. We are almost dead last in math and science. Did any of us made a move to turn things around? Did we ever teach close to 100% effectively towards our students? If not then we should try to achieve what Michelle had accomplished. 90% is sure good enough!
Go to youtube... channel... lionking4277... and try my basic elem. math 100% effective. Your students starts solving with you.
lionking4277 11 months ago
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lionking4277 11 months ago
Teachers and parents. If you struggle teaching basic elem. math in your class. Go to youtube... channel ... lionking4277... and watch my videos the easiest math ever!
lionking4277 11 months ago
selling the Utopian dream is easy! Ron L Hubbard said it best If you want to make money just lie to people.
Shoopycat 11 months ago
Michelle Rhee claims that she took 90% of her students from the 13th percentile to the 90th percentile or above in less than 2 years!
Isn’t that statistically impossible? “Normal Distribution”? “Bell Curve”?
Why hasn’t anyone interviewed her former students? Or their parents? Or her former principal? Or her former co-workers? Her fellow teachers?
I’m sure they all will have plenty to say about those scores!
Where's the proof of her academic success?
MsJanetWood 11 months ago
@MsJanetWood Why is this improvement statistically impossible? She has a small subset of students so from a simple mathematical standpoint that kind of improvement is entirely possible.
If you have proof she is a liar, why don't you provide the proof. If you don't then I think you're a either a union thug or a bad teacher that Michelle Rhee fired.
retsep81 11 months ago 6
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@retsep81 Rhee has her own problems she should have to explain. See the blog: Ateacheronteaching.blogspot.com (Grading School Reformers: Michelle Rhee and the Miracle of Rising Test Scores).
viall4diabetes 6 months ago
eliminate teacher tenure so bad teacher can be rid of
install merit pay based on standarized testing
thats how we should fix education in this country
lvll138inrs 1 year ago
@lvll138inrs If done right. Finland for example treats teachers like professionals, not slaves. Students are taught at home to respect authorities. Teachers in return respect the students. A friend of mine was called a "white cracker", and "dumb white bitch". When she called the parents, only a few responded. The administrator did little or nothing. So yeah, while some tenured teachers need to leave, because they are no good, a whole picture and setting needs to be looked at first!
1falconeye2 10 months ago 5
I know many, many people who have come through the Teach America program. The program gets a lot of hype but they cannot even last a year in the class. I'm not saying none of them but I will look at 14 people who I knew that came through the program only 1 lasted. The others left. They couldn't handle the children. They were made to believe that a teacher's job was easy. Some tried to last long for the next 3 to five years to so that they wouldn't have to pay those monies back. Blame teachers???
nikki72fly 1 year ago
Rhee talks a good fight, but the reality is that she couldn't cut it as a teacher and left for administration. She thinks that by using the revolving door of fresh meat from Teach for America (the majority leave after 2 years once their contracts are up) is the solution. Let's see Rhee stick with it for a decade if she truly believes in her spiel. If she's still standing and has achieved the results then we'll believe her.
harvey1954 1 year ago
Go Michelle! I like it. The stats behind what she did in DC (firings) are curious, but I like her passion. Drastic times call for drastic measures!
coachk62 1 year ago
Michelle Rhee is too cocky and she doesn't address the issues that teachers face, and just wants to be divisive so she can get her way.
The main problem is that there ar enot enough resources and that the parents don't instill a respect for academics.
There are a lot of bad teachers, but there are not enough teachers in general to teach. 30+ kids is too many to get anything done. Independent schools have ratios of 1:8, that is why those students get into competitive colleges.
HearingEveryRhyme 1 year ago
@HearingEveryRhyme completely agree, parents are 98 percent of the problem
AntaresInScorpius 1 year ago
@AntaresInScorpius BULLSHIT! "Bad parenting" is a LAME EXCUSE to turn the spotlight from the GREEDY cockroaches in the teacher unions. Sure their is greed on Wall Street and in casinos, but their is a LOT of greed in unions too!
I was a victim of "bad parenting" too, but I would've been RELIEVED if the public schools would've my oasis, instead, I went from abuse in home to school bullies because the schools TOLERATE bullies because they receive MONEY for EVERY WARM BODY in class!
carnivorerepublican 11 months ago
@HearingEveryRhyme Did you know that countries who are successful in math and sciences have 50 students in their class. The issue here is not class size but students in elementary can't even solve basic elem. math. Go to my videos at youtube .. channel .. lionking4277 .... and watch how I teach., 100% of my class starts solving with me within minutes of instruction. I could fill the whole auditorium and it won't matter. They all start solving with me. Spread my site to all teachers. It works!
lionking4277 11 months ago
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Why hasn't anyone interviewed Michelle Rhee's former students? Ask them what kind of teacher she was?
HBO documentary: "Hard Times at Douglass High."
Suggested Reading:
"Bad Students, Not Bad Schools” by Robert Weissberg
"The Dumbest Generation” by Mark Bauerlein
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
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The IMPACT evaluations are BIASED and lead to FAVORITISM ! Mean-spirited and UNFAIR!
The majority of the teachers fired were OLDER, BLACK WOMEN who had a vested interest in the community. They were fully credentialled and had years of experience.
They were replaced with YOUNG, WHITE, inexperienced kids who were temporary "slumming" through the ghetto.
BLATANT DISCRIMINATION and OUTRIGHT RACISM!
Michelle Rhee has NO RESPECT for teachers, and often refers to them with disdain!
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
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@MsJanetWood black culture is the true problem. black kids should not have to have it imposed on them to work hard, not steal and not be a menace to society. this should be built into their culture and come from their parents. black culture glorifies a lack of education, violence, promiscuity, etc. and that's the REAL problem that no one is talking about
theherdmentality 1 year ago
My point is this. If there is to be standards in the classroom then those standards need to be governed by what is in the best interest of the kids who are sent to school with the intention that they will be able to survive in the competitive global jungle. There are folks, like me, who would rather live on a farm raising my own children with the collected works of Plato and St. Augustine, but since the vast majority of people don't want that, they need to be equipped to do the other thing well.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons If you are coerced into 12 hour daily educational drill and have to time, energy or guidance for cultivating a soul, you will never develop into a human being capable of choosing to live on a farm reading Augustine or Plato. You will automatically choose the jungle. And you will live in a way that makes alternative choices less and less likely and possible. It is a million times harder to break into academe than it was twenty years ago. Fewer posts, and more applicants.
anomalogue 1 year ago
Here is my simple answer. Go to YouTube channel... lionking4277... watch my videos on how to teach basic elem. math the easiest way ever. It will change a teacher the way they teach in just minutes of watching my videos..... thank you... john j.
lionking4277 1 year ago
I'm a Senior in High School and I do not love anything more in this world than Children. I'm going to college to become a teacher. I hope I can help students in the future.
SugarMountain15 1 year ago
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Teacher "X" teaches 5 classes. He teaches 3 Algebra classes, 1 Advanced Algebra class, and 1 remedial class. His first four classes are okay, but his last class is utter chaos!
Why?
Is it because the class has 43 students instead of 35?
Or maybe because the majority of the students don't speak English?
Could it be that it's late in the day and the kids are tired?
Or maybe, just maybe, the kids are DOWN-RIGHT LAZY?
Stop blaming the hard-working, dedicated teachers!
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
The kids that talk loud and laugh during the movie! The ones that throw popcorn at the screen! The ones that run up and down the movie aisles. The ones that keep getting up to go to the bathroom! Those kids!
Do you think those kids could sit down for a 45 minute Math Lesson?
They can't sit still during a movie! You think they are going to pay attention to their math teacher?
So, who do we blame? The teacher? The administrators? The parents? Or the kids?
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
@MsJanetWood Yes. I believe that those kids, under the right guidance, could be great students, sitting down 45 minutes for a math lesson. I believe that for any student.
rbrtchng 1 year ago
@rbrtchng Well, good luck in your new job teaching in the inner city. I really do hope you can reach those kids. There are a few unique teachers like Jaime Escalante that can create miracles, but most teachers are average.
Again, good luck! I will pray for you! I hope you never lose sight of your goal. I think most teachers start off with the best intentions, and then the whole system just beats them up! The kids, the parents, the administration, society, nobody understands or cares
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
@MsJanetWood Thanks. I'll try my best.
rbrtchng 1 year ago
@MsJanetWood You've just described every child that is not somehow rendered unconscious. Perhaps an inept math lesson from someone who barely made it out of college and who does not actually understand mathematics (in operation or in its nature) would help lull such precocious children (all children) to sleep. That's how I got through public school.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
She did teach. Her kids went from failing to an upper ninety percent performance on standardized tests (No relation to Michelle Rhee)
massilivefly 1 year ago
@massilivefly I'm sorry, but I don't believe it! If she had been that successful, she would have stayed in the classroom.
It has been my experience that most people that go into administration are people who could not handle the classroom. Then, they spend the rest of their lives playing "arm-chair quarterback" and pretending to be educational experts!
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
@MsJanetWood This is silly. 1) Most people go into administration simply because the pay is so much greater 2) There is no good reason to believe that Rhee left teaching just because she struggled with it, especially in light of the fact that it is fairly obvious why she left teaching since she basically tells us: she never intended to be a full-time teacher and is instead interested in public policy and education reform, which explains why she does what she does in the first place.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons (re: @MsJanetWood) You really ought to spend some time in a classroom. The teachers are beyond exhausted. They're given virtually no time at work to grade papers, prepare report cards, etc. That's done late into the evenings and over the weekend. And being in constant contact with children -- many of whom have emotional and cognitive issues -- is a drain. Administrators work hard, too, but believe me, when they leave the classroom, they are escaping an unsustainable situation.
anomalogue 1 year ago
Dear Ms. Michelle Rhee,
I would like to inform you of a job opening at McGavock High School in Nashville Tennessee.
An Algebra teacher, Mr.Donald Wood recently was let go . . . Perhaps, this is your opportunity to prove that you are just not an arm-chair quarterback. I want to see you do it! 3 months! That is all!
Hey, if you think you're qualified to evaluate teachers, then, you should be able to teach, right?
Sincerely yours,
Ms. Janet Wood
(no relation to Mr. Donald Wood)
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons: Do you really believe that 140,000 kids missing more than a month of school is good? That it can be blamed on teachers? I'm going to assume you're joking; because I can't believe you'd be that obtuse.
viall4diabetes 1 year ago
@viall4diabetes When did I say that it was good? I merely suggested that it could have been justified insofar as the various causes for that purported phenomenon are complex. Why put the blame on kids/parents? Why not blame teachers and administrators? Teachers often have little to teach because they often know little themselves. I had public school teachers who struggled with algebra & English. I might have shown up to school more often if I didn't realize that it was often a waste of time.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons: I cite specific examples from my 33 years of teaching because Rhee (who lasted 3) is so prone to simplistic statements. Apparently, she never MET any bad parents. Is anyone so foolish as to say they don't exist? In the NYC schools in 2009, 140,000 kids missed a month of classes or more last year. Do you expect teachers to use telepathic powers to educate students who don't show? Even Teach for America idealists (who only commit to 2 years) couldn't do that?
viall4diabetes 1 year ago
@viall4diabetes She is very careful to qualify her position with the admission that social ills endured by these children matter. Why does it matter that you were a teacher for 33 years? Rhee's career is not reducible to 3 years with teach for America, she has dedicated her life to education reform. Maybe those kids were better off missing class when their teachers are hardly educated themselves. How frustrating is it to show up for something you know is pointless? That's how I felt in school.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons You just don"t get it . We can not teach students who do not show up. I have talked to parents who do not see the need to make their children go to school.Most teachers want to help kids and need someone with class room experience on their side in administration. Ms. Rhee did not teach long enough to help young teachers. She has political ambitions and s advancing herself at teachers expense. Just another grand stander who has no solutions other than to fire people.
alansjf33 1 year ago
@alansjf33 I think that we are operating within entirely different paradigms. I believe that teachers ought to provide a good reason for kids to show up in the first place, rather than arbitrarily expecting kids to just come. In my experience it is justified that kids would not want to waste their time. Why is it that so many people believe what is needed here is "class room experience" when it is so easy to offer counter examples showing that "experience" does not entail effective teaching?
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
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I'd like to see a reality show where Michelle Rhee teaches Remedial Math at a junior high in the inner-city! 5 classes with 35 students each! 5 days a week for at least 3 months! Then, a panel of education experts can critique her teaching!
Arm-chair quarterback? Back-seat driver? Delusions of grandeur?
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
Saturdays? Do you plan on paying teachers for this? Rhee, you are a complete grandstanding hack who spent 3 whole years in a classroom. If you can get buy in from parents you can be successful and you lucked out in your second year. After your third mediocre year you decided to play know it all and your act worked for a little while. Now, your job is to look for a new job.
Chrisrokk239 1 year ago
@Chrisrokk239 Well, yes, I think that is the idea isn't it? Pay teachers wages applicable to highly educated/motivated professionals and then demand the kind of output that is to be expected of such professionals. The truth about teaching, today, is that it attracts the lowest common denominator of "college graduates" who simply fall into the task because, quite frankly, it is really easy to get hired and easy to languish in. Most everyone else goes on to professional school and internships.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
Unlike Rhee, hundreds of thousands of good teachers work for ten, twenty and thirty years. Rhee did 3 years, including two working with a UNION teacher in a cooperative way.
I used to teach. I had one mother who let her son miss 106 days of school in a single year. I had a girl in seventh grade whose father abused her sexually, And I had plenty of parents who complained because we gave TOO much homework. You have to be naive to believe that teachers are the whole problem in education.
viall4diabetes 1 year ago
@viall4diabetes Well many inept teachers continue to work, unchallenged, for ten, twenty, and thirty years. I come from a backwards/poor school system and I had plenty of inept teachers who had been inept for decades. The amount of time they work is not sufficient for good teaching. It may not even be necessary. I'm not sure why you think having specific examples of social problems among your students is pertinent. What is the upshot of that? Give up? Why have a school at all?
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
10/13/10 Union vermin just got rid of her. Her mayor lost and she thinks she has to resign. The reason the mayor lost the Democratic primary was because of her radical changes to the crap DC school system, which were very sorely needed. The other candidate was a complete union slave.
SMASH THE TEACHERS UNIONS!
Meritocrats of the World, Unite!
RuflessRecords 1 year ago
1. You just said you got the parents on board.....PLEASE, if the parents aren't in the picture, how can kids do 2 hours of homework on their own?
2. Where is the proof of your "miraculous" test scores?
3. Your first year was a wash. If TFA teach for two years (about how long they stay) we are getting a 50% success rate. Is this a better success rate than teachers who stay and get better each year? Seems that "career" teachers would have better success due to the long run.
mrskorn 1 year ago
@mrskorn 1) They can. It doesn't necessarily follow that kids with bad home circumstances are rendered incapable of doing homework. If they are given a reason and have a knowledgeable/passionate guide then this is possible. 2) Increased test scores among students with better prepared, motivated teachers isn't a miracle. I'm starting to think that it is pretty much a fact. 3) She accomplished a great deal in 3 years, and if anything, ought to be celebrated for challenging an inept/corrupt system.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons 1. Most primary students cannot stay focused for 2 hours on their own, let alone do homework. What are you basing this on?
2. Can you show me the data to prove her tests scores in Baltimore really went from 13%-90%?
3. Can you provide the data to show that she made "great progress" in her three years? All I see is that she fired lots of people.
Btw...did she really need a chauffeur that costs lots of money?
mrskorn 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons 1. Most primary students cannot stay focused for 2 hours on their own, let alone do homework. What are you basing this on?
2. Can you show me the data to prove her tests scores in Baltimore really went from 13%-90%?
3. Can you provide the data to show that she made "great progress" in her three years? All I see is that she fired lots of people.
Btw...did she really need a chauffeur that costs lots of money
mrskorn 1 year ago
@mrskorn (1) Primary students might be more focussed if they had worthwhile instruction and classroom leadership. I see no reason to think that they cannot do homework. (2 & 3) DCPS publicly posts the information you are looking for on their website. Since she began there have been gains in student achievement. The Washington Post also mentions this in the 8/19/2010 issue. I don't know what you are referring to in Baltimore. Surely she fired inept teachers, and I never heard about her chauffeur.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
This may come across as incredibly shallow, especially because what she's speaking about is so vitally important to the country and our culture, but....man, for some reason, I find Michelle Rhee SO HOT!!
BigMojoDevil 1 year ago
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@BandofSorensons According to an article published by the W-a-s-h-i-n-g-t-o-n Post on July 10, 2010: "D.C. elementary test scores show decline"
This is unfortunate, because student test scores had been steadily improving since 1998!
P.S. I'm RETIRED and my kids are all grown, so I can sit here and argue with you ALL DAY if you like!
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
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@BandofSorensons According to an article published by the Washington Post on July 10, 2010: "D.C. elementary test scores show decline"
This is unfortunate, because student test scores had been steadily improving since 1998!
P.S. I'm RETIRED and my kids are all grown, so I can sit here and argue with you ALL DAY if you like!
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@BandofSorensons According to an article published by the Washington Post on July 10, 2010: "D.C. elementary test scores show decline"
This is unfortunate, because student test scores had been steadily improving since 1998!
P.S. I'm RETIRED and my kids are all grown, so I can sit here and argue with you ALL DAY if you like!
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
The "bad teachers" she fired were mostly fully-credentialled, older, black women who had a vested interest in the community.
She replaced them with mostly white, inexperienced young people that didn't have teaching credentials and were just PASSING THROUGH the "ghetto".
TEST SCORES went DOWN EVEN LOWER!
Michelle Rhee only taught for 3 years and DOES NOT have a teaching credential. As Chancellor, she made over a quarter of a million dollars per year!
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
@MsJanetWood Can you post a link to a credible source indicating that test scores went down? Being a "fully credentialed" public school teacher doesn't mean very much. It certainly doesn't necessitate being an actual good teacher. If she replaced those positions with white teachers it is only accidental insofar as, as a matter of fact, the vast majority of candidates with the credentials she's after happen to be white or asian. Teachers can teach for many more than 3 years and still be bad.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons You can look it up yourself!
Furthermore, being a FULLY-CREDENTIALLED TEACHER means that after having PASSED all your classes and required tests, you DONATE your TIME and TEACH FOR FREE under a MASTER TEACHER for a period of 6 to 8 months! It is rigourous process with frequent evaluations from the university professor, as well as the master teacher!
"Taping your kids mouths with tapes" like Ms. Rhee did to her students, would probably lead to a GRADE OF FAIL!
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
@MsJanetWood I attempted to look it up but I have failed to find anything that demonstrates your claim that "test scores, in general, all fell". I don't think you understand my point and I have to vehemently disagree. Such credentials are obviously NOT enough to necessitate a good teacher. Education, as an academic field, is a low achieving field in general and it does not require that much rigor to succeed in it. To the extent of finishing and getting a job. I know the system and it's a scam.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons @BandofSorensons Elementary school teachers CANNOT major in Education! They must major in ANYTHING, but EDUCATION! They must have a B.A. degree from a 4 year university. Once, they have their degree in Business, Politics, History, Literature, Foreign Languages, Biology, Chemistry, etc., they can apply to a GRADUATE PROGRAM where they can pursue their TEACHING CREDENTIAL!
Just like police officers working in the inner-city, teachers are UNDER-APPRECIATED and UNDER-PAID!
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
@MsJanetWood Many people major in things like "child education" etc in college thus never acquiring the kind of BA you describe. Further, getting teaching credentials is absolutely nothing like graduate school as it pertains to academic disciplines. They have almost nothing in common and they have radically divergent standards and minimum requirements. Teachers are not under-appreciated or paid insofar as they are incompetent. The job ought to pay more, however, for those qualified.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
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sfcx92 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@BandofSorensons According to an article published by The Washington Post
on July 13, 2010, "D.C. elementary test scores show decline".
This is unfortunate because student test scores had been improving steadily each year since 1998!
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons According to an article published by the Washington Post on July 10, 2010: "D.C. elementary test scores show decline"
This is unfortunate, because student test scores had been steadily improving since 1998!
P.S. I'm RETIRED and my kids are all grown, so I can sit here and argue with you ALL DAY if you like!
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@BandofSorensons According to an article published by the Washington Post on July 10, 2010: "D.C. elementary test scores show decline"
This is unfortunate, because student test scores had been steadily improving since 1998!
P.S. I'm RETIRED and my kids are all grown, so I can sit here and argue with you ALL DAY if you like!
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
This is straight comedy. By her "logic" we should only allow recent Ivy league grads do all jobs of substance. Training, years of experience, logic, whatever.
sfcx92 1 year ago
@sfcx92
I don't think you should be judging other people's logic.
Glasya666 1 year ago
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sfcx92 1 year ago
To date, there has been absolutely no documentation of these test scores (or the 35 students per teacher which clearly violates the law in Maryland). Are teachers in DC given the option of making decisions about classroom structure as she states she was? Are veteran teachers respected for the insight and assistance they provide to new teachers? Additionally, Rhee says she got buy in from the parents--she has not made a significant attempt to do that in DCPS.
gotmypearls 1 year ago
Not to demean the woman's intellect or trivialize the importance of the subject but she's kind of cute! Not a great face but a pretty nice body. Nice overall package especially when you consider how incredibly bright she seems to be. I'll bet Kevin Johnson enjoys tappin' that over-achieving, Asian-American ass!
Number1Dougster 1 year ago
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the united States has a Horrible attitude toward teachers! Because of this US schools will always be inferior to schools in other countries!!
In countries like India teachers are revered! Students in these countries work so hard in school. There is so much respect for teachers in India and other Asian countries!!
Parents in the US need to be much more involved in their child's education and take Responsibility!!!
martinal99 1 year ago
of course the expectations were high for her, asian immigrants place greater emphasis on education than other ethnic groups.... now ifother families would put more effort and focus on their children's education, there wouldn't be such a great need for this program.
therealnicemike 1 year ago
@therealnicemike absolutely, and one other important point...most of the Asian children when they come in as English learners, they still far out pace the children from poorer homes, where the parents do not motivate for success.
Elin48 1 year ago
This is excellent, I'm a High school student In DC, I'm also in Chancellor Rhee's High school Cabinet. I don't know why so many people don't agree or don't like Chancellor Rhee, (At least in DC) there is a lot of positive change going on. She Knows what she's doing
=)
pillsbury202 1 year ago 5
Point to an elite group of teachers from a program "tougher to get into than Harvard" and say: "They can do it, so everyone should be able to." Start cutting pink slips.
How is that different from pointing to a few rags-to-riches stories, saying: "They can do it, so everyone should be able to" and then cutting programs for the underprivileged?
Rhee's silver-spoon/silver-bullet cadre is little more than an excuse to scapegoat. Systemic problems are hard, and require bigger brains than hers.
anomalogue 1 year ago 8
@anomalogue very well said.
Elin48 1 year ago
@anomalogue : and yet she got results. And yet teachers who's students were doing the worst got thrown out. And yet those who remain got the fear of god put in them that if they goof off they'll be thrown out. And yet those of us working outside schools in corporate America know to work with a "right to work state" mentality, and the quality stays high, even with the usual dead weight of bureaucracies and office politicians challenging our very commitment to excellence at work.
mowriter 1 year ago 2
We need to stop letting classroom escapees dictate what goes on in the classroom. They dip in for a few years then get the hell out and play know-it-all for the rest of their lives.
Here's an idea for reform: 1) All school administrators should have 10 interrupted years of classroom experience before moving into administration. 2) Every four years administrators should be required to return to the classroom for a full year. 3) Same for all university professors who teach K12 education.
anomalogue 1 year ago 12
@anomalogue Hip-Hip Hooray! Listen to the voice of reason!
I love your ideas!
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
Certainly, some young, ambitious, idealistic 20-somethings with Ivy league degrees can work relentlessly nights and weekends bringing up test scores for a few years before escaping the classroom by dropping out of the profession or getting a fat promotion into administration -- but does it make sense to behave as if all teachers should be able to do that -- and for decades on end, beyond their youths into adulthood, parenthood, and into their 40s, 50s and beyond?
anomalogue 1 year ago 12
@anomalogue : this is a fair point. Clearly the teacher needs to be obsessed with and concerned with education, more than merely collecting a paycheck. I certainly remember both kinds in school, too. Some in disciplines I never pursued after HS, yet the inspirational ones inspired me anyway.
mowriter 1 year ago
@anomalogue Yes. All teachers should aim to be as competent as those ambitious, idealistic 20 somethings with Ivy league degrees. That would be a very good change in the right direction, if it were a norm.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons Listen, I am absolutely not disagreeing that IF we had sufficient numbers of idealistic 20 somethings with Ivy league degrees the kids would benefit. But we do not have this workforce, and we do not compensate teachers enough to attract people like this in sufficient numbers. My concern is Rhee uses the performance of highly trained and inspired young teachers as a standard, by which she can justify using fear tactics against a demoralized and undercompensated workforce.
anomalogue 1 year ago
@anomalogue I see what you're saying, but why not just raise the pay and the bar simultaneously? If they are really just "demoralized" and not incompetent then the boost in pay along with the increase in hard working, intelligent coworkers ought to go far in the direction of re-inspiring them to do the kind of job they probably should have been doing all along. If they fail in this then, well, maybe they would be better suited doing something else? Something less challenging.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons Yes. If we change the system as a whole -- including management, compensation, training -- then it is fair to expect higher performance. Without these changes, the standards are only a coercive device. And absolutely: purge the incompetents -- but not only teachers, but also administrators, and also incompetent educational theorists. There's too much fantasy in the educational profession.
anomalogue 1 year ago
@anomalogue I agree very strongly with you that administrators need to be held just as accountable as teachers in all of this. I also strongly agree that "education" as a theoretical endeavor is a total wash (silly if anything). A comprehensive overhaul akin to what you just described, is, I think, way over due.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons That was really what I was trying to get at: placing disproportional emphasis on individual incompetent teachers distracts from a much deeper problem in the system as a whole. And I am not at all convinced that Rhee herself is not a part of this systemic problem. My concern centers on standardized tests. Tests should measure the effectiveness of education, but higher test scores are not the goal of education. In the absence of clear vision, they've become just that.
anomalogue 1 year ago
@anomalogue I agree that it is an unrealistic expectation. But to put it in perspective, don't doctors do the same? Go to medical school, working hard relentlessly as residentials, and then staying a doctor for decades? Why is that expected? Because they see their jobs as a serious profession. Their jobs save lives. Teaching, while may not appear to directly affect lives, does indeed influence the course of students' lives. Should teachers not work just as hard as doctors in their own field?
PagingDrAsian 1 year ago
@PagingDrAsian I hate to be obvious, but the medical profession attracts highly ambitious people because it compensates them. Teachers make significantly less. Rhee takes advantage of fresh, idealistic kids with elite educations, with low living expenses and no history of burnout and does a sneaky Taylorism move. Measures their performance and uses it as a stick to coerce the same out of people with much higher time and energy commitments, who have suffered with low wages and poor management...
anomalogue 1 year ago
@anomalogue You've got a point there that she's not mentioning all scopes of teachers here but maybe she's got a point in saying that it is what teachers should strive for, in general. Teaching is just as important as many other professions out there and we should expect the standard to be as high as possible. Hey, at least Canada's talking about providing more incentives for teachers in the panel discussion for Waiting for Superman. If we could just get the system on board...
PagingDrAsian 1 year ago
@PagingDrAsian And maybe if there were enough of these young teachers available we could replace the whole teaching field with new blood. But I am not so sure these young kids will be able to sustain their energy levels, esp if they ever get married and have kids. Do we want teaching to be a field with a ~5 year turnover? I feel like nobody is looking at the question of sustainability in the profession.
anomalogue 1 year ago
@anomalogue Michelle Rhee is a Teach For America Alum. Did she dip out or is she making revolutionary change in the field of education? lol...
massilivefly 1 year ago
@anomalogue Yes it does. Why wouldn't we expect the very best of our teachers? Why wouldn't we expect the very best of our students?
dsf1224 1 year ago
@anomalogue Yes it does. Why shouldn't we expect the very best of our teachers?
dsf1224 1 year ago
@dsf1224 Oh boy, another hard-nosed realist. It's so simple: "Why not expect the best?" This is NOT realism -- it is a common and destructive form of rationalist delusion. You have to manage to REALITY. Teachers are not compensated well enough to attract talent in large numbers. Along comes Rhee. She recruits and trains elite teachers, driven by youthful idealism, benchmarks (a la Fredrick Taylor) their performance and uses coercion and threats to accomplish what inspiration achieved.
anomalogue 1 year ago
@anomalogue This is not "realism" insofar as it is pretty clear that you are just stating, without evidence, a presupposition about facts that are not actually known. Namely, that the model for education reform proposed by Michele Rhee will not work. However, in light of the fact that she has had real, measurable success, the burden of proof then falls on you or anyone else who would reject this model on the grounds of a purported "realism". There is nothing realistic about question begging.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons There's two directions to take this. One will never resolve, which is this: what are we measuring when we measure teacher effectiveness? We can measure comprehension of facts and the ability to perform various skills, but the more important dimension of education is unmeasurable. not that facts and skills are dispensable, but we've grown so obsessed with maximizing measurable success that there's no time left for the rest -- the essence of education. But this is unarguable...
anomalogue 1 year ago
@anomalogue I think what you are hinting at is something that I am sympathetic to and it is the question of what a education ought to really be about. I think that what drives the disagreement is that one camp sees education in a humanistic light. That is, as the betterment of humanity. The other sees it as a matter of sheer economic utility. If the latter, then it is clear what we ought to measure. Black and white outcomes. If the former, it is not something really altogether measurable.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons ...But my "realism" comment was aimed at the idea that we can "expect the most" from teachers, punish/eliminate them if they fail to live up to our expectations, and think that's going to get us the best possible results. I'm all for high expectations, but let's look at the whole problem and figure out the best possible way to realize them, instead of turning our aspirations into threats.
anomalogue 1 year ago
@anomalogue I think that the danger here is to put these two philosophical approaches to education in opposition to each other. I think I am inclined to say that public schools should focus on the economic model of what an education is because this is something that can be tested and governed effectively. Kids don't go to school, or college, to become sages but to acquire requisite knowledge for operating within our incentive driven society. Is it right? No, but it is why people go to school.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons But they are in opposition. The relentless teaching to tests displaces not only paideia, it occupies all a child's waking hours. Children today have far less free time to follow their own interests, so socialize and learn political skills. We've become so sure that we know what a child needs that we leave no room for anything but the training we think they need. We're cultivating cubicle occupants, not human beings. Why? Because we lack the education to approach it differently.
anomalogue 1 year ago
@anomalogue A trade approach to education exists out of necessity. A humanities education has become mostly irrelevant (outside of personal interest) and in its wake lies the challenge of a high degree of specialization in the applied sciences, business, and law (among others). In order to rise to the reality of this technocracy, that is demanded by our society, kids need to be tested in a specific skill set. This way they can do well on the SAT, go forward, and specialize.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons A humanities education has not become irrelevant simply because its value is unacknowledged. When purely technical training for a profession passes for education, and those who have received this training are mistaken for educated and occupy stations requiring education, the result is precisely the sort of inhuman functionalist excesses we see everywhere today. It takes education to see the value of education. We don't see it. We enslave ourselves because that's all we know.
anomalogue 1 year ago
@anomalogue I agree with what you are saying here but I still have doubts about whether or not this sort of education ought to fall within the domain of a public education. What we are talking about is a value laden education and there are just too many disagreements about that should constitute while there is almost no disagreement about what kids need to know in order to do well in college and in their respective careers. I don't think people need formal training in ethics to know evil/good.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons I do not accept the relegation of wisdom to monasteries and libraries. When too many people who have been given the gifts of discernment fail to question and resist the common assumption that meaning has no place in "the world", and shirk their cultural duty by treating their learning as a hobby or indulgence the world becomes uninhabitable. It's natural for crass minds to think strictly quantitatively, but if you've been given more, more is expected from you.
anomalogue 1 year ago
@anomalogue I agree, however, I am honestly just not sure about pursuing such higher things as part and parcel to a formal education. Indeed, I would say doing so in college is actually counter to one's aim insofar as the humanities, as taught at most schools, are a jumbled heap of nonsense and that people do well not to waste their time or money. I think many professionals will continue to seek wisdom in spite of never meeting it in school. It's human nature to desire to know and live well.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons Now I'm going to sound just like the purveyors of jumbled nonsense. There is no such thing as values-neutral education, and what we have now is actually aggressively values-laden. It places value in certain domains of knowledge, and places no value in others. As a result of these values there is no concern for whether a child endowed with ability and need in these areas can pursue them independently. This is doubly true for talented students.
anomalogue 1 year ago
@anomalogue I agree that all possible educational formats presuppose some kind of value in the sense that in the process of deciding what ought to be taught one has prejudged what is worth being taught. However, I think that what seems to make the most sense, given our circumstances, is an education most fit to succeeding in terms of those circumstances which is one rooted in factual knowledge and not questions about the good life that most people seem to grasp and yet argue vehemently about.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons I guess you're right. We've neglected the liberal arts for so long, we're so poorly educated in civility, our nation has lost its capacity to deliberate on anything related to values or culture. (Can't be an absolutist or a pluralist!) We're even losing our capacity to agree on facts. But things have a way of working themselves out, don't they? The Invisible Hand works in mysterious ways. In that we trust.
anomalogue 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons It is not enough to rise to the reality of technocracy. Responsibility demands we rise above it and direct it, so techne becomes a tool of man, rather than man a tool of techne. But from pre-K on public education drills kids relentlessly, inculcates them with passivity, breaks them so they just fall in, and participate in reality as given. Even would-be philosophers accept conventional wisdom and fail to question what they're told, that they can be a professor or a hobbyist.
anomalogue 1 year ago
@anomalogue I think you are right to point out that humanity seems to serve tech. interests as opposed to it being the other way around (as it clearly ought to be). I think that this is a function of our rather complicated social circumstances which are, I think, driven by a perceived need for comfort and the desire to cheat death. The value of an education has become one in which we hope a child will "cure cancer" or "innovate" some new convenience for market. Few stop to ask if this is right.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons Here's the core of my concern: I think application of a liberal arts education in practical life can slow or reverse technocratization. When a culture quarantines their thinkers in universities and home studies, technology grows autonomous, and humans become morally passive participants in whatever happens. -- Think of what happened when the Russian intelligentsia fled Russia in the 19th century. Liberal arts people keep a nation conscious, sane and fully human.
anomalogue 1 year ago
@anomalogue I disagree here as I think that technocratization is a function of an innate human desire to be comfortable and live as long as possible and thus that, really, tech. dominates our interests only as long as our interests are what they are by nature: to survive w/o pain. This is why people think this kind of education is good because it is more useful for this end. Who needs poets when you might have a surgeon instead? Values/ethics are projections of the heart and are unanalyzable.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons My concern is that cubicle training is not an education that will allow us to transmit our national tradition. A free nation must have a sizable portion of its population educated for citizenship. But not only are we not taking this need seriously. We don't even keep it alive as adults. It's all about our jobs, houses and portfolios. We seem to think that as long as we've got our Constitution, the tradition will take care of itself -- if we even think about it at all..
anomalogue 1 year ago
@anomalogue I'm not really too concerned with the values of a good citizenry, b/c I have doubts about ideological solutions in the first place. Free nations are composed of an educated/virtuous populace and yet I know of no so such society either now or in history and I doubt it will ever come to pass by any natural means. There are those few people out there who truly love the good and true, but they are exceedingly rare. So rare that we ought not put our hope in them but in what is present.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
@dsf1224 Because you get what you pay for. Rhee wants to use Taylorist techniques to wring inspired performance out of a beleaguered, unsupported, exhausted workforce. The youthful idealists she uses as a benchmark are motivated by excitement, hope and feeling a part of a movement. If she used her coercive fear tactics on them, their lights would be snuffed out, and they'd probably perform worse, too. See Daniel Pink's TED talk (the RSA one is good, too) on what really motivates professionals.
anomalogue 1 year ago
@anomalogue Isn't it true that the same "tactics" are applicable to those ideologue teachers just as much as anyone else? Why shouldn't they be excited to do what they are doing? Why is it that an indifferent complacency is somehow a permissible norm with regards to teachers? I think it is silly to take a reductive stance on what motivates most professionals, but I would bet it is some combination of power or money.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons Obviously indifferent complacency is unacceptable. I believe our disagreement centers on how to change that attitude. It seems many people think "indifference" is the result of not fearing the consequences of not working hard or not being tantalized by rewards. I think the more common case is burnout. Teachers work insane hours, are under incredible stress, and are scrutinized and criticized from every angle. Skinnerism can't fix this sort of problem...
anomalogue 1 year ago
@anomalogue I think that lots of professionals work excessive hours with excessive stress: doctors, lawyers, politicians, bankers, etc. It's just that these people get two things that teachers lack: prestige from a public that views such jobs as "important" and financial compensation. People persists in these challenging professions, more often than not, because the rewards simply outweigh the cost. Teachers are often looked at as people who couldn't hack it in the professional world.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons ...However, I don't deny that there are some crappy teachers out there who should not be teaching. And I also think there are talented teachers out there who chose other professions because they needed to make a decent living. So I'm not against firing incompetents and raising salaries, per se. But NOT in the spirit of reward or punishment. And it cannot be used as a red herring to distract from the systemic problems...
anomalogue 1 year ago
@anomalogue I agree about not losing sight of other problems but as it stands there is a strong case that the chief problem is an unacceptable labor pool. In every other professional endeavor you are rewarded for excellence and punished for incompetence. For too many years teaching has provided a kind of cozy retreat for college graduates who want to avoid such pressures. It's time to attract those who don't want an easy way out of such difficulties or who simply fell into the job.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons ... (last one) And finally, we've got to figure out how to create conditions where teachers actually can make a career of teaching. Listen to Rhee's story, how much time & energy she put into it. That is not something people can do for years. Should a teaching careers burn white hot for 5 years then crash? This is what I meant by managing to reality. How can we get enough good teachers into the system and retain them and have have widespread success? People aren't disposable.
anomalogue 1 year ago
@anomalogue I think that most fields dominated by educated people are this way. When I worked in business this kind of attitude was expected of me. I know that in the future this will be expected of me. Is it right? I am not so sure, but if I want to compete and remain in the professional system, so to speak, then I best persist with diligence. Incentives keep the world moving forward, teachers have no such incentives and they eventually crumple under the shear lack of expectations. I would.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
@BandofSorensons Why aren't you in business now? ... I think the way people work is making our culture sick. And honestly, this has a lot more to do with the problems in our schools than bad teachers. Parents prioritize their careers over their children, and try to foist their parental duties on teachers -- then we blame the teachers for not being able to parent 20-30+ feral, sleepless, malnourished children and keep their scores in an upward trajectory.
anomalogue 1 year ago
@anomalogue I agree that our culture is overworked, overstressed, and detrimentally preoccupied with material gain and superficial prosperity. I don't work now b/c I quit my job to go back to school. Our schools are riddled with problems at all levels. In large part the challenge is the general aim of educating everyone whether they think they want it or not. But good, inspiring teachers might be the best hope such unfortunate people have at rectifying their stance toward wisdom.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
Wonderful actions taken in Washington DC. The best should always be promoted and the worst.... well sent home...
Sigma341 1 year ago
What is the connection between MR's work in her 2-3 years of teaching and the structure function of TFA in the classroom?
SableYork 1 year ago
I think it's excellent that Michelle and her fellow teacher raised the achievement levels so high for their group of students. As a young teacher myself, I find it hard to find that balance of commitment though. She mentioned coming in before and after school and on Saturdays. If every teacher did this I think their family lives, health, and overall well-being would be compromised. I think many things in our society need to be improved for a SUSTAINABLE system, not just teachers.
adamsahib 1 year ago 8
From what I hear, most Teach for America candidates hate what they're doing and
it's telling that few stick around for 5 years or more. Studies now show that they
do not achieve any better results than a 3rd year, normally certified teacher who
plans to teach for a career.
MrRandyDick 1 year ago 3
the united States has a Horrible attitude toward teachers! Because of this US schools will always be inferior to schools in other countries!!
In countries like India teachers are revered! Students in these countries work so hard in school. There is so much respect for teachers in India and other Asian countries!!
Parents in the US need to be much more involved in their child's education and take Responsibility!!!
FTWEVEREYONE 1 year ago
@FTWEVEREYONE well said!
7thDayAtheist 1 year ago
Unfortunately, school advocates in the city say that Rhee is the most secretive superintendent in memory, as well as the one who demonstrates the least understanding of budgeting
FTWEVEREYONE 1 year ago