Isaiah 53 Debate pt2

[3457lkande1]

He was is past not present.He was cut off HEe was taken away is talkins of past

[moabedom]

@3457lkande1 And then, in this same chapter of Isaiah 53:11,12 He lives again! " He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: ... for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he SHALL DIVIDE the spoil with the strong; because he hath POURED OUT his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." NOTE: IN ORDER TO DIVIDE SPOIL HE'S ALIVE!

[moabedom]

The Talmud ALSO identified the Messiah with this Servant!!!!!!! (Sanh 98b)::

"What is his [the Messiah's] name? — The School of R. Shila said: His name ...Others say: His name is Menahem the son of Hezekiah,for it is written, Because Menahem [‘the comforter’ ], that would relieve my soul, is far. The Rabbis said: His name is ‘the leper scholar,’ as it is written, Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted. [Soncino]

[moddie84]

well we don't get to see the orthodox response but he would have pointed out that at this point Israel is forgiven of all its sins Isaiah 40, and that it has no deceit in its mouth, Zephaniah 3. So at this point Israel would be sinless before God.

[moabedom]

@moddie84 See Pt1 response about the New Covenant wiping away all sin (therefore now making sin offerings irrelevant) in Is. 31:31-34, "..I will remember their sin no more". We believe this New covenant to be the covenant servant spoken of in Is 49:8 and that this servant is expounded more fully upon in Is. 53. (53:11-righteous servant). He is introduced in 53:1 as God's Arm. This Arm accompanies salvation to the world & rules (Is, 40:10,11). The Messiah is to rule Micah 5:2. Servant = Messiah

[moddie84]

@moabedom well the problem with the new covenant is it hasn't happened yet because part of the new covenant is that jerusalem would never be destroyed and it would happen after all 12 tribes of israel were reunited. The twelve tribes were not reunited and in fact after jesus the temple was destroyed and there was a bigger exile. Also there was not a universal knowledge of God and people still sin, all contrary to jeremiah 31's new covenant.

[moabedom]

@moddie84 As Jesus prophesied in Mt 24 the temple & Jerusalem were destroyed by the Romans in A.D. 70 & about A.D. 125. Our ancestors were then scattered. Today, God alone knows which of the 12 tribes we belong to. The are all now represented in the Jews of the state of Israel. Universal knowledgeof God only occurs after Israel is regathered in unbelief (Ezek. 36:24, 25 ) Israel finally realizes who Messiah is after Israel is attacked by Iran & Russia (Ezek. 38:5 - & then Ezek. 39:7 - study all

[rakovsky]

@moabedom Hello Brother! You are right that the temple & Jerusalem were destroyed then, and the ancestors were scattered. As a sidenote, Jesus applied the prophecy of "scattering" to his disciples when he was captured. Many Jews know that they probably come from the biggest tribe, of Judah (the "Jews" / Yehudite). Since 10 tribes were lost, I doubt that a "Jewish State" represents all 12, rather than simply the ancient kingdom of Judea (Yehuda). Peace.

[moabedom]

@rakovsky Since God knows the ancestry of every Jew living in Israel today, God knows which of the 12 tribes they each came from! Yes, mankind does not know which tribes they came from, but God does!

[rakovsky]

@moabedom (cont.) Thanks for the food for thought, btw. I am skeptical about your view of Ezek 36, that it means Israel must be gathered as unbelievers before everyone can believe in God. I hope that Israel doesn't have to be attacked by Iran before it realizes who the Messiah is, and am not sure about this view. Also, Ezek 39 doesn't say that "Russia" attacks Israel, it explicitly refers to Iran, Ethiopia, and Libya, according to the "Bible CC" website's verse commentary.

Shalom.

[moabedom]

@rakovsky In Ezek. 38:1 thru 39:7 (Emphasizing 39:7 after you've started reading at 38:1) - 39:7 - God says He will make Himself known to Israel by destroying the Mesheck/Tubal armies along with Iran & Libya + northern Africa AFTER they attack regathered israel! So they are clearly regathered BEFORE they are attacked & then after God destroys them, He says in 39:7 " So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel..." BY DESTROYING the attackers He makes His name known!

[moabedom]

@moabedom It says that Meshech & Tubal are allied WITH Iran (38:3-5 note "with them") If you carefully study the origin of the words Meshech & Tubal you will find that they stand for the areas of Moscow & Tobolsk. Russia is also the country to the "north" of Israel from which they come (39:2).

[moabedom]

@moabedom In 1909, under the rule of the Czars, before Russia had any significance in world power, C. I. Scofield commented; "That the primary reference is to the northern (European) powers, headed up by Russia, all agree....The reference to Meshech and Tubal (Moscow and Tobolsk) is a clear mark of identification. Russia and the northern powers have been the latest persecutors of dispersed Israel."

[SuperAlexrios]

these two assholes are bias

[rakovsky]

Thanks for posting!

Do you think the speakers were given equal time?

Lapide points out Jeremiah says " 'I am like a sheep led to the slaughter,' but everyone knows he was not a sheep." Lapide's point is that Isaiah could be saying he is a servant like a sheep led to the slaughter too, even though he wasn't.

[rakovsky]

David says in Psalm 22 "Roaring lions tearing their prey open their mouths wide against me... They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing." If you take Psalm 22 completely literally, it doesn't apply to David OR Jesus, since lions, as far as I know, didn't open their mouths at either. So Lapide is right, Isaiah could be making poetic descriptions of God's servant. Calling the servant a lamb doesn't exclude Isaiah himself or Israel.

[rakovsky]

On the other hand, Kaiser pointed out that the servant's lack of deceit excludes Israel.

I liked Kaiser's comment that

"for the transgression of my people he was stricken" means "he" is not my people Israel.

What do you say about the comment that Isaiah 53 has the words of a foreign king glorifying God, and "his people" is the Babylonians?

[moabedom]

No, it's not about Cyrus. Jesus refers directly to isaiah 53 as speaking about himself in Luke 22:37 when Jesus refers to Is. 53:12 "...and he was numbered among the transgressors". Jesus says there in Luke " For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end."

[rakovsky]

@moabedom Thanks for your discussion. In my everyday life I am often shy to discuss my faith, so your discussion is special. You are right that it's not about Cyrus, because the OT never describes Cyrus as killed for another people's sake. Sure Jesus applies Is:53:12 to himself, but His authority only works as a proof if you are already accept it. On the other hand, Jesus is CORRECT that He fulfilled it.

[moabedom]

You don't need to use Psalm 22 to show that Isaiah 53 is about Jesus. in Is. 53:9 God says about this person "...neither was any deceit in his mouth." Yet, in Is. 48:1 God says that the house of Jacob - Israel & Judah, "...make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor righteousness." If Israel is speaking "not in truth" then they are deceitful and cannot be the one spoken of in Isaiah 53:9 who speaks without any deceit. Verse 8 - "stricken for .. transgression of my people(Israel).

[rakovsky]

@moabedom You are also right, brother, that you don't need Psalm 22 to show Is 53 is about Jesus. You are right to show that applying Is.53:9, describing the Servant's honesty, to Israel contradicts Is 48, where it says the opposite of Israel. And you are right that verse 8 - stricken for my people- means my people Israel. I seems to me that Is 53 is the Song of Jerusalem and Zion in Is 52. So Jerusalem's people is "my people" Israel.

[moabedom]

Yes, they were given equal time. If you get a copy of the entire "debate" you will see that Pinchus Lapide and Walter Kaiser Jr. are good friends, and neither appeared unhappy at the conclusion of the taping of the debate. They appeared very frioendly and comfortable with each other. Get it and watch it.

[rakovsky]

@moabedom I am glad to hear, that. I am sure they weren't unhappy, and that they are friends. Sure I would like to watch the entire debate. People can have different interpretations of poetry and faith and be good friends. The scriptures are beautiful poetry. And more! In fact, I read someplace else that Lapide sees Jesus as anointed to bring the gentiles to the scriptures. Putting aside for a moment the implicit admissions in the claim, it shows that he sympathizes with Christians.

[moabedom]

Hezekiah means God is strength. Quite a difference from addressing one as Lord. He shall be called, The Lord our righteousness" Jer. 23:5 - And, Ps. 110:1 "..The Lord said to my Lord" and " But thou Bethlehem..out of thee shall one come..ruler..whose goings forth are from ancient days.." Micah 5:1 Who else but God is from ancient days? Also, they first 'smite the judge of Israel" (Micah 4:14) then He "gives "them up" then His brethren (believers in Jesus) "return with the children of Israel"

[rakovsky]

Moab, Good point that the Messiah's "disease" also means "grief."

what do you say about New Tubber's comment that Jesus didn't have offspring, which it says the Messiah does in isaiah?

And what about his comment "Lev. the 4:1 chapter tell us plainly that sacrafices are for sins done unwittingly." I think he is right about this rule in the law, yet the Bible says Jesus' death fulfilled the law.

Thanks.

[moabedom]

"offspring' - you mean where it says in verse 10 that "..he shall see his seed"? I take that to mean that when we are born again after believing in Jesus His "seed" planted in our hearts has taken hold. As born again Christians we are fulfilled spiritual "seed". Spiritual "seed" planted has "spiritual" results! Those born in the "spirit" are the result. However, the "natural man receiveth not these things of the spirit.." Unless "seeking." They are spiritually discerned. 1Cor. 2:13-16.

[rakovsky]

@moabedom Yes I referred to verse 10 where Isaiah 53 says the Messiah would have offspring(seed). You are right that it is fulfilled in Jesus in that we are born again by faith in him. Although I doubt that this necessarily occurs at the exact moment we ourselves have faith, because the New Testament gives a time where a wife believed and Jesus said her husband would be or was saved too. So it seems that a faithful family's baptism of a person could also serve as such a moment.

[rakovsky]

@moabedom I doubt that the term seed in Isaiah 53 refers to Christ's "seed" like a plant-seed being planted in our own hearts. I believe that it refers to a reproductive "seed" as a term for one's descendants. St Paul in Galatians and/or Romans specifically describes Christians as Abraham's spiritual seed through baptism/faith in Israel's Messiah.

[moabedom]

@rakovsky Agreed.

[rakovsky]

@moabedom I understand your commentary that born again Christians are fulfilled spiritual seed with spiritual results (I could add, like a tree's fruits). However, I defer to the plain meaning of Isaiah 53 that the term "seed" is a reproductive term that refers to one's offspring, whereby those born in the spirit are the seed (offspring).

[moabedom]

@rakovsky Agreed

[rakovsky]

@moabedom I don't think that the words that the natural man receiveth not these things of the spirit unless seeking, because the things are spiritually discerned (1 Cor. 2 13-16) leads to the view that the term seed in Isaiah 53 means a kind of plant-seed, over the more plain view that they refer to offspring.

After watching your movie and others, I have come to believe the scriptures prophecy the Messiah's resurrection. I wrote about it on my "rakovskii" blog on livejournal. Shalom brother.

[rakovsky]

@moabedom You are right that the name Hezekiah means something alot different from calling Hezekiah someone's "Lord". And you are right that the term "ancient days" suggests God, but it could also be another godlike being, I assume. I haven't looked into Micah 3-4, but your explanation sounds ok. Thanks!

[newtubber77]

Hebrew names have God in them.. Hezekiah whom Isaiah spoke of his name means the mighty God.

He's not God. Elijah mean mighty Yah he is not Yah! His name shall be called the Lord our righteousness. its interesting you didnt give verse 3 of Micah. When she who is in labor has borne a child. Then the remainder of his brothers shall return with the sons of Israel.

The disperse of Israel did not return when Jesus was born.

[moabedom]

For those of you interested, there is more explanation in part 1 (pt1) of this video.

[newtubber77]

The servant in Isaiah is Israel.

The servant has "Zera" which means seed children..jesus did not have any children...from Isaiah 49 up to 53 God is speaking of Israel as his servant

[moabedom]

As Is.53:8 says: "...For he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due" Remember God said "Let my people go" To Phaoroh? Israel is God's people. The stroke is due to God's people (Israel). (Is. 53: Isaiah says Israel is "deceitful" (see Is.48:1,etc.) but of the person spoken of in Is. 53:9 it says: "...Neither was any deceit in his mouth". Messiah "..bared his soul unto death..and made intercession for the transgressors (Is.53:12).

[newtubber77]

Isaiah 53:10 But the Lord chose to crush him by disease. Jesus didnt have a disease! Verse 10 says He might see offspring and have long life! Jesus died at 33..Yes God said let my people go and Israel went astray! But you know we have a bible and our bible tells us plainly in the book of Chronc. That when we pray and repent then and only then will God hear from heaven and heal our land..we dont need blood from a man for God to come and heal us! God says I desire mercy not sacrafice

[moabedom]

Disease? The word can be translated as "grief" also. But the context clearly indicates that this "person' suffered vicariously for Israel, for "my people" as it says in verse 8. Additionally, He offers his own soul (it is his choice) as it says in verse 10 and in verse 12 "...He bared his soul unto death...yet he bore the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors" (53:12). Verse 10 uses the word "asham" or trespass offering - see Leviticus 5:6, 7, 15 etc. - a bloody offering.

[newtubber77]

Lev. the 4:1 chapter tell us plainly that sacrafices are for sins done unwittingly..

So if Israel sins and knows they have sinned..a sacrafice is no good...repentence is needed and a sacrafice cannot atone for them.

[moabedom]

As far as you saying "we don't need blood from a man... to heal us". Who are we to tell God what we "need'. He decides. Throughout Isaiah God says He will do something 'new," "hidden", and hard to believe. Additionally, in 49:8 God gives this person as a "covenant". When God made covenant previously it often involved "blood".

[newtubber77]

I'm not telling you what Yezreel thinks I'm telling you God says to us in Torah. Lev. 4:1 everthing I said to u is quoted from God. You are giving me chapters and verses with your christiandom complex. I am telling u what God says. You believe that God came down and was born of man and died for the sins of Israel and the world. That is no where in Torah or Tanakh no where. God says through out the Tanakh I am not a man or a son of man. Jesus refers to himslf as son of man.

[moabedom]

As it says in the Tanakh - "For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder...And his name is called ...el gibbor.."(mighty God) Isaiah 9:5,6. Also, in Jeremiah 23:5 speaking about Messiah Our Father in heaven says " And this is His name whereby He shall be called, The Lord our righteousness" And, Ps. 110:1 "..The Lord said to my Lord" and " But thou Bethlehem..out of thee shall one come..ruler..whose goings forth are from ancient days.." Micah 5:1

[sh3rv]

Im Christian and I see Jews as my close cousins. There are many obvious sections of the Torah which point to Jesus and many hidden ones too, for example the name of the first 10 ancestors of Jesus points to his ministry and outlines the NT. I think the Jewish people dont see this because God had hidden the kindom age from them Until his return.

If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace— but now it is hidden from your eyes.

[newtubber77]

this Jewish guy is bull he is holding back truth

[sh3rv]

What would you say ?

[moabedom]

I'm the "Jewish guy". The one with the maroon shirt on the left. I say the evidence shows Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel. What do you say?

[newtubber77]

What would I say..I would say what scripture says..I would quote God!