John Pilger interview with Alan Clark on Indonesia/East Timor

[Frohicky1]

Up against the wall, bang, sorted.

[Vot63]

As with Enoch Powell the saying, "that we can always recognize a true genius by the mob of mediocrity that gathers to tear them down".

[AlanWattParrot]

@Vot63 yes absolutely spot on

[Eaglesfanmd]

thats a sick human being

[lizclegg]

I'm surprised he did an interview with Pilger. As Defence Minister his job was to facilitate sales of arms by British companies. Of course those arms are used to kill people. Of course he knew he was promoting an industry which kills people. Of course he didn't care or he wouldn't have done it.

His is a vile man, and his being vegetarian was always weird, although I hear Hitler was a vegetarian.

[AlanWattParrot]

@lizclegg if you read his trilogy of diarioes you'll discover he wasn't really a vegetarian .. he was a complex man . worth a thousand ten-a-penny lizcleggs not fit to be his maid lol

[lizclegg]

@AlanWattParrot Which would make him worth what, ten billion AlanWattParrots not fit to wipe his bum, although he would still be vile. I read his diaries many years ago, and thought he was pretty vile then.

[AlanWattParrot]

@lizclegg the unfailingly courteous Tony Benn who i also admire greatly (like Clark another highly impressive & unique character whose passing the thinking public will come to mourn), gives a typically kind eulogy

Like all of us Clark was a product of his social class /genetics; a snob, callously aloof toward human suffering, yet when his other character & personality traits (incl. disarmingly brutal self-assessment) are taken into acc they somehow, miraculously, mitigate such obnoxious flaws

[kevinastraw]

I do loathe this man, but his "The Donkeys" is a real classic of WWI, and in that he has a huge sympathy for the courage and tenacity of the ordinary soldiers whose lives were wasted by a vain and indifferent top brass.- the Donkeys who led the Lions.

[LietenantAwesome]

@kevinastraw Which of course is rapidly becoming an outdated thought.

[kevinastraw]

@LietenantAwesome An outdated thought originating in the mind of the German top brass - Clark gives undeniable proof that tens of thousands of British lives were wasted by impossible tasks - one British officer, a schoolmaster, showed his superiors a map of the military situation proving that attack would be futile - he still had to lead his men to certain death. It is not enough to say that the British military were stuck in a situation and could do no other.

[AlanWattParrot]

@kevin The Donkeys is a masterpiece. I have Barbarossa too but haven't found time. The Tories was his long dreamed of /awaited magnum opus but it's a patch job, overall lacking in depth that needed atleast 3 vols to do it justice - cramming it into one proved too much even for AC's effortless mastery as a writer (too often concision blurs into superficiality). He studiously overlooks the archival account in Quigley's Anglo American Est., a Must Read First re. Tory history & a must read, period.

[paccodata]

@myrrhtreeconvo Alan clark love or loath him was one of the last mps in my view to say what he thought ,how many do that now? instead they do the same but coat it in pc bull,just wish we had a few more alan clarks about now.Without people like him politics is just bland sadly.

[disastersimon]

the fact that he didn't squirm was rather refreshing, even if bloody brutal

[SunnySide247]

Jesus F***ing Krust!!!

.

How can government officials look at you with a straight face and say... " I sell deadly weapons that can massacre entire towns, I make money, and I don't give a rats-ass what you think"

.

And at the same time those government officials make laws that say: "You can't grow, sell, or smoke pot. That is illegal."

.

Major "WTF !" There....

.

[Logicopositivi]

I know it's an odd comment but at least he's brutally honest about it.

[Oskadella69]

Alan Clark Stone cold psychopath, he could rationalize anything. Hard core killer.

[simonzon]

Alan Clarke was not a vegetarian - for one thing, he ate venison.

[jakeZaks2012]

If anyone wants to find out the truth behind Britain's foreign policy, then visit ww w markcurtis (dot) info. Mark Curtis is a British historian and journalist who uses declassified government documents to reveal what our so-called representatives have been doing with our money and our votes for decades.

[ericsonny]

Psychotic Monster springs to mind!! Well done John Pilger

[margotdarby]

I love John Pilger. I love the late Alan Clark, too. Can't we all jes' git along?

[toxoid]

fucking insane guy

[JohanHelenius]

This is great. Haha. What an extraordinary man!

[borderlord]

As one of his best friends said after he died:"He was a complete shit!"

[evilofisalm]

PUBLIC SCHOOL EDUCATED MORON always got what he wanted {born with silver spoon} thank fuck he neve$r got high in polotics

[JIMBOB911112]

Whats public school got to do with anything?

[evilofisalm]

@JIMBOB911112 everything { schools for morons }

[mrzack888]

scum british cunt.

[userblue]

WHY AREN'T THERE MORE CLIPS OF HIM?

YouTube needs more. Society needs more.

[userblue]

@cormacof

It's like seeing an older version of myself.

[Partijs42]

@cormacof How elegantly put, brave boy, hiding behind you screen, scolding at people you have never even met.

[Indul1]

Alan Clark is saying that war is war.....I'am a leftie myself but the reality of international affairs and wars is brutal.

[atticvs53]

Great man.

[tigerarmyrule]

Simple realpolitik. Left wing regimes sell arms. The Swedes have made an art of prating about rights while running a huge arms industry. Referring to this as "right wing" is nonsensical.

[fransciscoau]

Real politik is just another way of saying : moral abyss. Whether its left or right (merely a label by the way), the pursuit of arms sales for pure profit (irrespective of consequences) is standard. The difference between British or Russian arms, or US or Chinese arms dealers is actually none i.e. they do not act differently because of their home domestic political system.

[fransciscoau]

What the Swedes etc do is nothing more than the typical hypocrisy that so called enlightened nations engage. Obviously China or Russia do not bother.

What "should be" shocking is not the politics, nor the existence of a so called arms industry, but the callous disregard for human life and suffering displayed by men such as Clark. He is honestly expressing views that were obviously "acceptable" within the corridors of power.

[fransciscoau]

The CAVR report on East Timor is worth reading, because through these pages you can see just how little regard men like Clark had for human life. The complicity of the US, UK and Australia in the deaths of 187, 000 thousand human beings is not a little post script.

[canisfamilliaris]

The pursuit of anything for profit is standard, it's the reason we in the West have such a nice life compared to those in backwards nations.

It's nobodies fault if some cultures, peoples aren't capable of dealing with the consequences of the 20th Century. (although it's vaguely racist to say so I think?)

With that attitude we'd never have become the superior culture/people we are.

[fransciscoau]

The pursuit of anything for profit is standard...

Yes, that is logical, but the pursuit of profit "irrespective" of the human consequences is not standard, but it has been imposed on many aspects of the global financial system..

This heartless attitude owes its origins to mercantilist capitalism of the 18th C (where slavery was essential) and then to the so called progress of the Industrial revolution.

You should read Adam Smith, 'The Wealth of Nations'.

[canisfamilliaris]

The same industrialised countries that got rid of slavery, because it was "immoral", are those the ones you mean.? Then stopped the Arabs and Blacks slaving by force of arms. Ironic really, industrial might and capitalism bringing about a better moral outlook, and then creating a better world.

Obviously I'm not including the blacks still slaving each other in Africa(women, children), or the Arabs/Islamists (Sudan, Somalia)

You should really get a moral perspective, jeez.

[fransciscoau]

Perhaps you should read:

Capitalism and Slavery Eric Williams

Slavery helped finance the Industrial Revolution in England. Plantation owners, shipbuilders, and merchants connected with the slave trade accumulated vast fortunes that established banks and heavy industry in Europe and expanded the reach of capitalism worldwide.

get a moral perspective...

I agree, "YOU" should get a moral perspective and a scholarly "Historical" perspective too. You have a very simplistic understanding of history

[canisfamilliaris]

lol, all whites did was put slavery of blacks on a firm commercial basis.

I know it jibs your world view that blacks sold white people other blacks for the purposes of slavery and have been slaving each other and eating each other for thousands of years, without technically advancing at all, you don't like the fact that Arabs have been (and still are) slaving blacks in the most bestial fashion for thousands of years as well.

The reason you don't mention the worst culprits is?

I can imagine.

[canisfamilliaris]

Well funnily enough I don't realise that, and the tactic (shallow and vapid as it is), of saying you're not going to enter into any further argument, then finishing off by falsely claiming that you have "decimated" mine, rather smacks of desperation. If you'd managed to do that I'd be rightly contrite, but stringing together a few half thought out vaguely "leftist" "thoughts", and then going ta da, as if anyone is going to be impressed is hardly decimation.

I'm really contrite, really, lol.

[canisfamilliaris]

Love it when the veneer slips and they have a hissy fit, and take there ball away. It's about as useful are their fake moral outrage, don't you think?

Still you go on shouting, it saves making a point, and why start now, and probably makes you feel better.

Denying reality is soooo easier than dealing with it., lol..

[fransciscoau]

No legitimate scholarly journal or mainstream newspaper in the UK would even consider publishing your views in an article or letter - as they breech UK and EU racial vilification law.

Every word you type continues to demonstrate your willful ignorance and prejudices. Indeed, your contribution to "any debate" could only be vapid.

[canisfamilliaris]

You're right of course, none of the Left leaning quasi Marxist publications you speak of would publish my views, what a surprise.

But light does get shone, Burt, Jensen, The Bell Curve.

You are quick to accuse, but short of facts.

Remember you are the one deploring Alan Clark's refusal to discriminate against blacks/ethnics on the grounds of culture and race.

You are the one who has implied they should be treated like children: not trusted with white man's technology.

How is that not racist?

[fransciscoau]

Ok, I'll have to bite! Are there no worthwhile places that you can publish your written genius in the UK? How frustrating for you to be reduced to the impurity of You Tube. I never realised that The Times or the BBC were all mad red bastards. Mate, how ignorant am I, thanks for clearing that all up! It would be a shame if you didn't at least try to write a book educating us all in all your intellectual glory. LOL!

[canisfamilliaris]

Well you are ignorant, bacause it's axiomatic, and widely talked about, usually under the monica of the "mainstream liberal media", who, like good Marxists, lie, conive and distort the truth at every opportunity.

Just in fact, like you do. The way you do this is like the BBC, CNN etc, you distort the truth, and positively, horror of horrors, refuse to answer any question I've asked about Arab slaving etc, not to mention your blatant paternalistic racism towards ethnics.

Dissonance or what, lol?

[fransciscoau]

{to the sound of violins}...oh my poor, thwarted, c how do you ever get through the day? You horribly put upon oppressed white Englishman, all those commies, immigrants and foreigners ruining your life. You should be lecturing at Oxford with that superior white brain. Having read your usage of paternalism, racism, ethnics, backwards nations, white mans toys etc I love how you (a latent white supremacist) dish out the racial arguments. LOL By the way don't you mean moniker rather than Monica?

[canisfamilliaris]

Well how can I be a white supremacist? Yet again I ask legitimate questions about your point of view, and you refuse to answer?

If I was a white supremacist I wouldn't (like you) be claiming that we should discriminate in arms sales based on culture or ethnicity. I'd treat all races equally, and see what happened, wouldn't you?

The manifest success of Africa, Asia and the Middle East speaks for itself, makes me wonder why we have to subsidise our equals so much?

Still, you keep discriminating.

[fransciscoau]

[To the sound of Benny Hill Theme]

with the greatest of respect I do not advocate any racial basis to arms sales. You, by dear sad Canisignoramus, are the one banging on about race! I only advocate a regime that upholds the most basic rules of international law and where the UK (or anyone else) does not provide technological assistance for genocide and or the slaughter of fellow 'human beings'.

PS - take note of this last concept i.e. 'human beings'.

[canisfamilliaris]

Well then we'd only be able to sell arms to each other, because by some startling coincidence, if you exclude all the despotic, criminal, and homicidal regimes in the world, you exclude asia, africa and the middle east.

So actually by your semantic quibbling (yet again), you are demarcating arms sales on the basis of race/culture, but can't bring yourself to say it. Which would be amusing if it didn't display your total lack of commitment to reality.

Sad man really sad.

[fransciscoau]

Back for another beating I see! LOL! "despotic, criminal, and homicidal regimes in the world, you exclude..., oh my dear canis, are you actually suggesting that there is no money for British arms dealers if they stop selling weapons to dictatorships and genocidal regimes. [insert the sound of ironic violins] Are these the same brutal regimes that Great Britain, the United States et al have supported for decades undermining all local attempts at social and economic justice?

[canisfamilliaris]

There is obviously a market share for arms, and if we don't sell those arms, some other country will, which will mean we won't get the money. The despotic regimes, and sundry foreigners will still get to kill each other, but we won't have a share. Why should the uk go without because they are backwards and primitive?

That's the "ironic violins", you're fake moral outrage, which solves nothing, saves nobody, and makes no difference to anyone.

Attitude without conscience, never pretty.

[fransciscoau]

Ah, back again displaying that genetically superior white English brain! LOL Oh my dear Caniswhitesepremis, how many ways can you demonstrate your ignorance (perhaps without even realising it?) Oh, it would seem you are a bottomless pit of entertainment. I am really enjoying your responses - priceless! LOL The argument you have given here is exactly the same argument used in the late 18thC 19thC to defend the continuation of British commercial slavery. Ah, for the good old days eh C man!

[fransciscoau]

"Why should the uk go without."

Ergo, the UK government should just participate in all these appalling crimes? ie instigator, accessory, before and after the fact, monetary bagman, apologist and business/military partner), least you miss out on all that $? At Nuremberg we tried and executed people for such crimes against humanity. How enlightened and noble to profit from the suffering of human beings 'Attitude without conscience, never pretty". You demonstrate this every time you type. Ugly!

[canisfamilliaris]

We executed people at Nuremburg for selling arms. Could you give me the dates and names of these executed arms dealers?

There are crimes against humanity, carried out by ethnics all over the world, but that's there problem not ours. All we are doing is trading with them.

Your mock mendacious morality, that we should treat races/cultures/religions differently from white's, is appalling. I'm sure you'd like the same to happen for jobs, and medical care too?

Confused you are.

[fransciscoau]

My dear Canisignoramus, three posts of your genetically superior white wisdom! Thank you for the entertainment, priceless. At Nuremberg an array of Germans (your sort of white guys by the way), were tried for crimes against humanity (economic, administrative, military and conspiracy) i.e. including economic measures and logistics to the Nazi Empire. "but that's there problem not ours"

But dear C man, if the UK is part of the conspiracy and crime it "is" your problem.

[canisfamilliaris]

and they were tried for selling guns were they, lol.

Could you give me the names and dates of conviction of the people who were tried for selling arms. Think you're missing the point old chap?

Honestly, you maintain that ethnic people are not capable of self control, say they can't have weapons made by white people because they can't control themselves, think that they should be treated differently from white people, and then claim you are some sort of egalitarian, laughable, really, lol.

[fransciscoau]

Oh dear little little C man. Is that all you have? Your obdurance in misrepresenting what I say (and what I have not) is only matched by the emptiness of your logic. Can I lend you some legs to stand on? Perhaps I can provide you some lessons in logic and historical method. The saddest aspect of what you display is that it is all based on the worst kind of logic (neo-fascist racial eugenics) and delusion. I can only imagine the oh so middling little existance you live. I wonder who you vote for!

[canisfamilliaris]

I've asked you this question before, on a number of occasions, which you never answered on a number of occasions. So i'll try again.

Why do you go on about the relatively short period of time when blacks and arabs sold slaves to whites, whilst ignoring the thousands and thousands of years when Arabs and Blacks slaved each other in the most bestial fashion?

Why do you ignore Arab slaving now, as it's still going on around the world?

I find your tacit support for ethnic slaving disturbing?

[fransciscoau]

But I did answer it C man, (see comment from 5 days ago). Oh, how your genetically white heart must sting with the cry of justice for those enslaved by Arabs and blacks. All those marches and letters you must attend and write LOL! So how exactly do I support slavery canisignoramus; I condemn "all slavery", "exploitation" and "crimes against humanity", even (shock horror), those by those white slavers that you seem so keen to defend. Oh dear little C man, you were just born in the wrong Century?

[canisfamilliaris]

No you don't condemn all slavery, you go on about white slavery, as if it was the worst, when in fact it was a small blib by the white nations, who then put it right.

If you condemned all slavery, you'd go on about all slavery, but you know, and I know, in your heart of hearts, that the fact that blacks have been slaving other blacks and Arabs have, and still are slaving blacks, is in inconvenience you'd rather deny.

It was the blacks and Arabs who sold the slaves, we put a stop to the as well.

[canisfamilliaris]

But yet again you don't answer any of my points.

You support treating people of different racial groups differently (except for the Japanese), you support Arab slaving, or at least you have a sliding scale in your head, that only flashes red when Arabs and Blacks sell slaves to whites.

You are being deliberately obtuse, you never mentioned Arab/Black slaving until I did, and you know it.

To sum up, you want the uk not to sell guns, because you like foreigners to die by other countries bullets?

[fransciscoau]

1. You are deliberately attempting to amuse yourself with arguments that you yourself could not take seriously, but utilise in the belief that they might somehow irritate an ideological opponent;

OR 2. You actually take what you have typed seriously and find nothing in your text to be anything less than the only possible conclusion that any reasonable person could have. It is my hope that it is 1. and not 2. Then, intellectually you are at least only worth contempt, rather than pity.

adéu

[fransciscoau]

[Insert the Twilight Zone Theme here]

"I'd treat all races equally, and see what happened, wouldn't you?"

Given your belief in the superiority of white British cultures (as per your support for the quasi neo-eugenics of the Pioneer Fund), you obviously believe that on a so level field (which it is not), whites will always win. Ergo, C man, you ARE a latent white supremicist. Happy New Year by the way.

[canisfamilliaris]

Well it's not really a belief is it? Not white British culture, but Western Democratic culture. So you give me examples of superior cultures, in human rights, technology, food production, or any metric you like (grubbing in the dirt doesn't count), for black and asian cultures/races.

You see I'm dealing with a manifest reality, and you're dealing with a fiction that exists entirely in your head.

Guess what, you can't name one can you, not one.

Or can you, your answer should be revealing?

[fransciscoau]

Your white supremacist ideology implies that African, Asian and Arab leaders are all criminal and homicidal. Strange how you claim equality, but advocate selling weapons to criminal regimes so that they can slaughter the very citizens striving for democratic reform, human rights and justice. But you naturally believe that these cultures are genetically inferior to your own - this is your reality. Post 1960; Japan is clearly superior to UK US in all respects based on criteria you have supplied.

[canisfamilliaris]

Well that's because all African, Asian, and Arab countries are ruled by nutty dictators, who rule with untold barbarism their subject peoples, while being vastly backwards, culturally, technologically, and in the sphere of human rights. I don't imply it, it's a manifest fact. The very fact you could only come up with one country that was on a par with the West, and which is like that due to the West, sort of proves my point.

Love the support for the democratic countries of Arabia, touching.

[fransciscoau]

Ah, dear canisignoramus, back again for yet another smack down! I see by your comments you have finally acknowledged your white supremacist belief system. Manifest reality, really... sounds like you are claiming membership of the master race! Is it not interesting how such noble places like the UK aid and assist the barbarous crimes of these "nutty" dictators just to get their grubby hands on some oil, diamonds or gold?

[fransciscoau]

As for the example, dear C man, you only asked for one example...remember what you typed..."Guess what, you can't name one can you, not one". Japan is actually superior in all respects (based on your own criteria) to the UK US. Your ignorance of Post-1950s Japan is touching, so childlike. Just remember C it is never too late to get an education at a University...put that genetically superior white brain into action eh! LOL

[canisfamilliaris]

So your hypothesis is that the entire Western arms industry should sell its weapons to Japan. A country that had to be bombed into civilised behaviour, and then benefited from the generosity lavished on it by that nasty old usa.

Allowed to export while protecting its own markets I might add.

So, to sum up, we should discriminate against asians, arabs and blacks in arms sales, unless they are running a western style democracy, but there aren't any so we have to discriminate.

lol, a joke really.

[fransciscoau]

Oh, I think the whites only stand up comedy circuit beckons you C man...oh, the masterly genetic logic.{please slowly C} if the UK sells guns to criminal regimes (which it has done for decades) and also profits from the human carnage this causes, then that fits the criteria (outlined through the UN) of crimes against humanity. Are you as ignorant of US foreign policy history as you sound? It seems to be a big "Yes".

[fransciscoau]

Dear C man,

Just a thought, if believe yourself so genetically superior to all other races, are your shameless and bizarre appeals to the language of human equality and racism frankly...well as empty as your head? Why would you care if "ethnics" as you call them, (so much less than you, oh mighty white Englishman...let us worship you as god), if they kill each other with British guns? Oh, thats right, my affirmative action arms crusader, you could not care one bit.

[canisfamilliaris]

So to sum up,

you don't think that the UK should sell arms to ethnic regimes, (although you can't bring yourself to say it, so you use the world criminal instead), so no guns to anywhere in Africa, the Middle East, most of Asia then, just Japan.

You acknowledge this will make absolutely no difference, that they will just kill each other with other countries' guns, that your petty patronising racism will not stop one death.

So the uk should not get a share of the market so you can feel smug? lol

[fransciscoau]

So what exactly does Arab slaving have to do with what I said about Clark/British arms dealing?

But thanks to your logical genius I now know the British arms dealing community is one the biggest anti-racist organisations in your entire country. Hah ha LOL! So very noble!

Let me ask, do you even believe this, can you (presumably a middle aged man) seriously believe that this makes any sense?

PS - You are not a BNP speech writer by any chance?

[FIFTY2WEEKS]

He was a cold fish.

[jppage3005]

Sound thinking margotdarby?> I think not. Am reading his diaries at the moment and wanted to get a flavour of the man himself so watched this clip. The argument that you can manufacture and sell weapons without any concern for the consequences seems pretty ignorant to me. I know it goes on and it sustains jobs but his point of view is morally vacuous.

[jammythedodger]

Tbh though, his responsibility is purely to his constituents and his country.

Someone who weighs up these pro & cons of world affairs works in the UN. A British Minister should think solely of British interests, that is why they are there.

[fransciscoau]

If Indonesia's Defence establishment provided weaponry for legal arms sale (and lets say sold weaponry to UK citizens who visited Indonesia). If these weapons happened to be used for violence against other UK citizens that would be irrelevant (even if they suspected that would be the case). After all the Indonesians only have to worry about Indonesia besides what would they care if UK foreigners murder other UK foreigners. What is so special about the UK for Indonesians? Are they justified? No.

[canisfamilliaris]

Yes they are justified in trying. Unfortunately we have the rule of law in this country, and if they tried that hardly anybody would buy the weapons and those that did would be arrested.

Civil society wouldn't break down now would it?

Similar to the way guns are widely available in the United States, but endimic murder only occurs in certain "ethnic" enclaves.

Do you notice a consistent pattern developing here?

[fransciscoau]

By your own admission you are suggesting that should they manage to kill British citizens they are justified in defending themselves in precisely the same way as Clark.

------------------------------­---------------

...but endimic murder only occurs in certain "ethnic" enclaves.

"I" made no reference to ethnicities, non western cultures, or so called socio economic ghettos. YOU are the one asserting this view as opinion without providing evidence.

[canisfamilliaris]

Well if "they" started to kill British citizens it would be "them" that was doing it, which would be "murder", or if attempted on mass an act of "war". Which I'm sure we would retaliate against.

This has nothing to do with anybody selling arms to anybody else.

Does it?

[canisfamilliaris]

But isn't it racist to not sell arms to foreigners because they are foreigners? Surely that's morally vacuous?

Could you explain how having your leg blown of by a British landmine is different from having your leg blown off by a Russian or Chinese landmine?

I do think we should not sell arms to foreigners, but I think first the country should be asked their attitude to this practice and any loss of revenue should be taken as a % from the people who don't like it, that's democracy.

[sophieisahomo]

you are a right wing arse hole

[canisfamilliaris]

Well I'm not being Right Wing am I? You're the one implying that we shouldn't sell weapons to ethnics. That's blatant racism in my book, treating people differently just because their skin colour, or culture is different from ours.

Bet you don't agree women should have the vote either, in case they abuse the power.

Think things through, or just think, you'll find it helps.

[canisfamilliaris]

If you have an argument, which I doubt, could you please answer in the public forums and not be such a coward.

No you didn't mention skin colour, you didn't actually mention anything.

I'd just like everyone else to see your lack of coherence. If that's Left Wing, I'll stick with the Right.

Although as I'm actually proclaiming that we should treat all colours equally and sell guns to anyone who wants them, I'd say I was the one being inclusive, surely?

[sophieisahomo]

@canisfamilliaris Alright you win your a TWAT.He was evil, no respect for his wife his family . Used his money for sexual favors as his personality would have got him nowhere. Thatcher and clarke will burn in hell like you will too.

[canisfamilliaris]

Ah what's the matter, not everyone agrees with you, can't handle it.

"burn in hell", really, do people laugh at you when you tell them you believe in the sky pixie?

As I said, I doubt you've got an argument, and you certainly can't articulate it if you have. Leave the world to your betters, there's lots of them.

[fransciscoau]

..explain how having your leg blown of by a British landmine......

You have answered your own question, but failed to consider the implications.

[canisfamilliaris]

Yes but explain how it's different. Given the nature of the world in which we live?

You have looked at my statement and refused to answer, which in itself has implications?

[fransciscoau]

"You" have suggested that there is no difference between having a leg blown off by a British or Chinese landmine. Therefore there is "no" difference in the end result in the usage of that weapon after sale.

The obvious implication being that there is ultimately 'NO' moral or ethical difference between British or Chinese arms dealing. I think in your own way {!} this was what you were hinting at.

[canisfamilliaris]

That's right there is no moral problem at all in selling weapons to governments, or in some countries people who wish to buy them. Your implication that it is wrong to sell weapons to people of colour, or general ethnicity, is just racist.

It's not the West's fault that some cultures/races are to dumb, backwards and stupid to handle advanced weaponry invented in Western factories.

Next you'll be deploring the sale of machetes, because blacks can't help chopping women's tits off, ridiculous.

[fransciscoau]

...loss of revenue should be taken as a % from the people who don't like it, that's democracy.

I am afraid that is not any definition of democracy. That would be arbitrary and practically impossible to enforce. Secondly, it presumes that money from arms sales it placed into the Treasury for domestic usage (services etc) It is not.

[canisfamilliaris]

Not really impossible, it would be simple to enforce. Those who don't want arms sales, because they admit, blacks and asians and so forth aren't capable of dealing with the toys of advanced western cultures, could be put on a central database, and then they could be charged for any loss of revenue that results.

I always find it's the principles that cost you something that are worth having, don't you?

[fransciscoau]

Arms sales, manufacturing and procurement ceased to be in the sole domain of Western nations a long time ago. The Chinese have also recently emerged as global competitors and manufacturers of modern weapons.

As for your views about revenue from arms sales I do see a practical or even cogent argument.

[canisfamilliaris]

And the Russians, and the Chinese and sheds in India, there are weapons manufactured everywhere, so what's the point of your useless moral outrage. You seem to be suggesting as long as the British go without the revenue, the jobs, and technical innovation, then that's a "moral" win.

The people will still die of course, it'll just be someone else's weapons, and you can feel smug about achieving nothing much at all.

So practical suggestions?

[fransciscoau]

Your argument is as follows:

Clark is not a racist because he is willing to sell weapons to Indonesians who used these weapons to slaughter East Timorese. Ergo, because, they are both non-white, this proves that Clark is "not" a racist. You then defend this position by making references to the superiority of British society (law, lifestyle and technology) and the backwardness and brutality of non-white cultures. That is, with due respect, a remarkably absurd and insipid position to adopt.

[canisfamilliaris]

No my argument is you are racist because you want, or imply you want, the British government not to sell weapons to certain ethnic groups on the grounds of race.

It was Muslims who where slaughtering the East Timorese, (as usual), where they got their weapons is irrelevant.

Well the superiority of Western society yes. The backwardness of most "ethnic" cultures is self evident. Otherwise they'd invent something, and wouldn't rely on charity.

In what sense is it absurd?

Self evident I'd say.

[fransciscoau]

You imply that the only argument "against arms sales" is based on ethnocentrism. Any cursory examination of scholarly materials on the trade would demonstrate that you are completely mistaken on this point. You are actually suggesting that Clark (who ignored "human suffering" by his own admission) is not a "racist" because he sold arms to Indonesians (who in turn use these arms) to slaughter East Timorese. Yet when objections are made to such arms sales "you" accuse objectors of racism. Wow!

[stephemf]

having recently read his diaries, just want to say thanks for the clip! We need more Clark vids on the web!

[margotdarby]

Good man, good man. Sound thinking. I happen to believe East Timor was in the right, but Clark's defense is sound. Why (unless one is a working missionary or journalist) should one fill one's mind with worries about what one group of foreigners does to another group of foreigners?

[McFS15]

Well considering he was the Minister for Defence Procurement, and responsible for foreign arms sales to countries such as Indonesia, I would say it is his concern.

[margotdarby]

Yes, perhaps, if this is during his tenure. I don't know the timeline of events or date of this interview. But I doubt very much the jets were sold to Indonesia with the express intent (or even anticipation) that they would be used against East Timor.

[JohanHelenius]

@McFS15

No, it isn't. What happens in Indonesia has nothing to do with the British defence agenda.

[durbansouthafrica]

Excellent! So I am sure in your world-view, both 9/11 and 7/7 were total non-events as well! Who cares indeed that all those people died, eh! P.S Not really, of course. I am sure on the day after those events you had your head bowed for the minute silence like a good little child.

[margotdarby]

Nope. Wrong again. Want to try for the Trifecta?

[toxoid]

@margotdarby oh, i don't know. moral decency or some such bullshit.

[margotdarby]

@toxoid Haha, okay, good one. But you have to admit, it's not much of a stretch to like both Clark and Pilger! Brothers under the skin. Strike that—brothers on the surface, quibbling over details.

[momintheweedzone]

@margotdarby they're nothing alike. also, you speak a lot of shit.

[jakeZaks2012]

@margotdarby, you are clearly ignorant of world affairs. General Suharto was installed into power by the US in 1965. Over 1 million people were butchered in the process. The CIA subsequently ranked Suharto as one of the most brutal dictators of the 20th Century. America wanted a compliant dictator that would allow the US and UK to plunder Indonesia of its resources and wealth.

Alan Clark knew this, and that's why he armed Indonesia - to keep Suharto in power and UK business in profit.

[JimmyC1983]

Superb, any more footage?

[ShalomAMOR]

Sorry for swearing but you deserved that...

Even you're gone!!! Dead... Your decision was screwed up man...

[ShalomAMOR]

He fucked up!!!

He doesn't concern about human rights John...

He is a fucking bastard, one of the insane Defense Ministers ever nominated....

FUCK YOU ALAN CLARK... FUCK YOUR FUCKING DECISION...I am a Timorese, my people were suffered... You are real DOG...

Imagine if you were born as a Timorese at that time..? Asshole

[dmoney11000]

Er, its not alan clarke's problem that one of villagers were smashing the shit of another lot of villagers thousands of miles of away.

If you bunch of animals are incapable of resolving differences and wanna buy weapons, then clearly you must look closer to home for culprits to blame