Murray's book, which is really a report, is confusing at best. It twists the word "desire" and makes it seem impossible for God to contradict Himself. Better to understand this is the idea that God does NOT desire the death of the elect.
Jesus Christ is NOT who catholics Idolize or worship.They pray to dead saints and Mary among other abominations.This 1900 year old false church was responsible for the murder of 10s of 1000s of True Followers of Jesus and they still seek to kill whatever The Spirit of Truth seeks to do. These are anti-christ spirits that will lead you to hell, dont buy their Lies.Catholics were going to be stopped from entrance into USA by Order of President Lincoln but a catholic sympathizer (Booth) Killed Him
After watching many of your videos and agreeing with most of it, this is the first video i have come across where i can't find myself agreeing. Romans 9 says some vessels are prepared for destruction. proverbs 16:4 says that all is made for the LORD, yes even the WICKED for the day of evil. Another place i think it says god desires NOT to reveal himself to certain people. And how does this line up with limited atonement? If god desired all to be saved he would, but he did not. Please explain
/// Romans 9... proverbs 16:4... god desires NOT to reveal himself to certain people... limited atonement?
Hey bro! Good point. Those verses of Scripture refer not to the Free Offer (God's Benevolent will/desire), but to His "Decretive" will - what He has decreed to happen. God has decreed many things to happen that are contrary to His nature (e.g. sin)
/// If god desired all to be saved he would ///
If you mean "decretively" desired, then yes. but not in this case.
Francis Turretin on Ezek. 18-"Although God declares that he ‘does not will the death of the wicked, but that he turn from his way and live,’ it does not follow that he has willed and planned from eternity the conversion and life of everyone, [even] subject to any condition, for … it is certain that this refers to God’s will as commanding, not to the will of his good pleasure…."
/// Francis Turretin on Ezek. 18-"Although God declares that he ‘does not will the death of the wicked, but that he turn from his way and live,’ it does not follow that he has willed and planned from eternity the conversion and life of everyone ///
Again, that doesnt contradict the Free Offer - for we freely confess that GOd "DECRETIVELY" wills only some to be saved (which is what Turretin is referring to), but that He BENEVOLENTLY desires all to repent.
"If it is equally in God’s power to convert men as well as to create them, it follows that the reprobate are not converted, because God does not wish their conversion; for if he wished it he could do it: and hence it appears that he does not wish it." -John Calvin
/// God does not wish their conversion; for if he wished it he could do it: and hence it appears that he does not wish it... John Calvin ///
Again, Calvin is referring to God's DECRETIVE will/wish, not His BENEVOLENT desire (or the Free Offer).
For Calvin elsewhere says...
"He [BENEVOLENTLY] invites to Himself BOTH THE REPROBATE 'AND' THE ELECT IN COMMON; but the former, by their ingratitude, defraud themselves of this inestimable blessing."
I wonder what people in your position do with Romans 9:22- What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience VESSELS OF WRATH PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION. How are they "prepared" for destruction? Maybe all the things you call "grace"? Just as Calvin stated.
/// Romans 9:22- What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience VESSELS OF WRATH PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION. How are they "prepared" for destruction? ///
Again, that is referring to what God has planned DECRETIVELY - what SHALL happen, or what He has DECRETIVELY willed.
However, God shows in Scripture explicit "desires" for things that He had not DECREED to come about. ("OH THAT..." etc)
@doctorh2005 It sound as if you are teaching that God really desires the salvation of the reprobate, but for some reason it will further His Glory more if He reprobates them instead of saving them, so now to fulfill His Glory it is like a bitter pill He must take. Does He now loath Himself for all eternity for having such a warped sense of Glory?
/// It sound as if you are teaching that God really desires the salvation of the reprobate ///
Again, the word "really" doesnt do justice. The word is either "BENEVOLENTLY" or "DECRETIVELY".
We should say "God DECRETIVELY wills the destruction of the reprobate", but (from EZEKIEL 33:11 and ISAIAH 45:22 etc) He "BENEVOLENTLY desires [all] the wicked to comply with the conditions mentioned within the Gospel overture [aka... repentance]."
/// so now to fulfill His Glory it is like a bitter pill He must take. Does He now loath Himself for all eternity for having such a warped sense of Glory? ///
Beware: Mockery pertains to blasphemy. Our job is to go with what SCRIPTURE says, regardless whether we can understand it incomprehensibly within our 3 pound human brains or not."
Good video this helped me out a lot!! Thanks!! hypercalvinists only choose to believe in one side of the coin!
Also other theology I know says this is CH Spurgeon (greatest preacher ever and 5 point calvinist), John Calvin mentions it, Martin Luther as well. But the hypercalvinists ignore it or they are blind to it when they read these guys. Or they simply say "I dont care calvinism doesnt mean we follow john calvin."
We have to fight this heresy man! I think its more dangerous than armins
@Haukman66 Grace isnt only saving grace. There is a difference. God blessing people and giving them the good things in life like friends and family etc, provisions is grace. They dont deserve such things but God does it anyway out of compassion. Saving grace is an intentional special grace given that gives a man the ability to repent and believe. How is this unbiblical?
@MaharlikaAWA Where in scripture is there 2 different types of grace? The reprobate, does not get grace at all. You can call it mercy, but never grace. When God gives people sunshine, rain, and "friends" as you say, it is only sealing their destruction. That is not grace. Why did God raise Pharoah up?
/// When God gives people sunshine, rain, and "friends" as you say, it is only sealing their destruction. ///
WRONG. Its more than that. The Lord Jesus, in the sermon on the mount, shows us that in the same way as God commands us to love every single one of our enemies, God likewise bestows "benevolent" lovingkindness to every single one of HIS enemies. All of God's commands proceed from His very nature. And sun, rain, etc, are meant to be expressions of His lovingkindness.
@doctorh2005 "and sun, rain,etc. are meant to be expressions of His lovingkindness". You are showing, you have no understanding of Gods judgement. These people, who never repent, are storing up wrath for the day of judgement, by soaking up them rays of sunshine you claim are grace. I dont see the word grace used in connection with the wicked in scripture. He gives grace to the humble, never to the prideful.
Many prominent theologians actually support Common Grace - HODGE, BERKHOF, JOHN MURRAY, GRUDEM, BAVINCK, ROBERT REYMOND....
Only those who follow "Hoeksema" seem to think that its wrong - and Hoeksema is wrong on that one. Differentiating between God's BENEVOLENT lovingkindness and His SALVIFIC lovingkindness (as MURRAY so clearly points out) is the key to seeing this in Scripture.
@doctorh2005 I sure would love for you to provide us, with proof there is 2 different types of lovingkindness in scripture. All those names you listed, can be wrong. I mean Grudem believes in an old earth. I have his Systematic Theology. He is wrong.
Hey bro, its ok to say "Salvation is conditioned upon repentance and faith" aslong as we maintain that its (1) salvation "in the APPLICATORY sense" (not the accomplishment) - the "applying" cause of salvation to the sinner is faith - saving faith (and repentance) - but (2) we also maintain that man in and of his own efforts, ability, power, decision, CANNOT produce this saving faith (which is the applicatory cause), because GOD produces it in us. (BERKHOF supports this)
@doctorh2005 So what you are saying is that election is actually uncodnitional because God is the one who does it, but then it puts in us an ability to repent which is the "condition" of faith. We are given faith which causes us to repent. If we dont repent we are not in the condition of salvation? Do you follow TULIP?
Yeah I follow tulip. Repentance includes faith - and Jesus said "unless you repent you will all perish" (LUKE 13:3), so repentance (and faith) are conditions for "not perishing" - but Calvinism says that God "causes" us (by His irresistible grace) to fulfill those conditions" - as John Owen said.
Good book to get is "Redemption Accomplished and Applied" by John Murray.
@doctorh2005 Then why did you say salvation is conditional? I dont believe it is conditional. When you say "salvation is conditioned..." what does it mean? I am not trying to fight you I sincerely want to understand.
@doctorh2005" Hey bro, its ok to say "Salvation is conditioned upon repentance and faith" aslong as we maintain that its (1) salvation "in the APPLICATORY sense"
Now your just spewing heresy dude. there are no conditions on salvation. Faith and Repentance are FRUITS of regeneration! Salvation comes by the grace of God. Unconditionally!
@MaharlikaAWA Murray’s exegesis relies on an ambiguity in the word will. Will can mean either command or decree. It is God’s will (command) that murder not be committed, and it is his will (decree) that Jesus should be murdered. There is no contradiction in this statement once one sorts out the two meanings of the word will in Scripture. But Murray would have us believe that God wills and not wills murder—and salvation—in a similar sense.
He fails repeatedly to distinguish between God’s decree and God’s command. That is why his use of the word impliedly fails in this passage. God is commanding all the ends of the Earth to look to him and be saved. He is not wishing, still less decreeing. God is unequivocal, but Murray is not.
@1689Baptist Why would God command something, as in demand it happen, if He never even intended it to happen? How is that logical and what purpose does it serve?
@MaharlikaAWA You are speaking like an Arminian. Why does God command all men everywhere to repent when He know they are totally depraved and cannot come? Gods Word never returns void it accomplishes what He intends for it to do, so when He commands it will bring His elect to Christ and/or further sanctification, or it will add to and strengthen reprobation by causing further rebellion.
@1689Baptist I am in no way an arminian. Are you trying to say that God commands people to repent and wants them to repent? Or he has absolutely no intention of them repenting and actually does not have any want of them to repent? Why does God command it if he doesnt want it to happen? If God only was calling the elect wouldnt it say "God calls only the elect to repent.?" But the bible only says "God calls all men to repent!" There is no specification. yet you say God has no desire for it.
The hypercalvinists today are in denial. They deny they are hypercalvinists and seem to think they arnt, but everything they are teaching to people is hypercalvinism. They dont even see the error of their ways and behave like elitists. They are just heretics and delusional. Its very sad. Especially the ones who are out "street preaching" to people.
/// "Look here, you dingleberry, you have God desiring something He has not decreed to happen" ///
(1)
I would rather be classed as a Bible-believing "dingleberry" anyday rather than one who believes only what he can "fully comprehend" within his 3pound fallen human brain.
Comprende?
(2)
God says "OH THAT you had heeded My commandments!" - proof positive that God sometimes expresses a "desire" for something He had not DECREED to happen.
@doctorh2005 Long time no talk too. So can you answer my question I posed about 4 or 5 months ago? I asked you what you know about evolution. You told me you were working a lot of over time and had a hard time getting back to me.
This is what happens when a person is still worshiping the Arminian God and has yet to come to grips with the Gospel being NEWS not an offer.
This is what happens when someone is oblivious to law/Gospel distinction.
This is what happens when someone does not understand justification is conditioned on the righteousness of Christ alone and that faith is how we receive news; not a condition of justification.
This is a joke. Common grace and the FOG are both unscriptural.
/// justification is conditioned on the righteousness of Christ alone ///
Straw Man.
/// and that faith is how we receive news; not a condition of salvation ///
Actually, its BOTH how we receive AND a condition.... Read what the Puritan, Calvinist divine, JOHN OWEN stated: "What do the preachers of the gospel OFFER to them to whom the Word is preached? Is it not life and salvation through Christ, UPON THE CONDITION of faith and repentance?"
@Haukman66 A hyper-Calvinist is someone who either:
Denies that the gospel call applies to all who hear, OR
Denies that faith is the duty of every sinner, OR
Denies that the gospel makes any "offer" of Christ, salvation, or mercy to the non-elect (or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal), OR
Denies that there is such a thing as "common grace," OR
Denies that God has any sort of love for the non-elect.
@MaharlikaAWA So now you are redefining terms? Hyper-Calvinism, says that we dont need to evangelize, because God has already chosen those to be saved. You are adding your own terms to the mix.
Where did Hyper calvinism state anything about 'common grace'? And if God loves all, who does He hate?
@Haukman66 I am not re-defining terms. You can try to witness to people or evangelie and still be a hypercalvinist thats not the only defining factor. Hyper calvinists usually dont believe in common grace. God hates the wicked who are in hell, but on earth he DOES give them equal compassion but not saving grace.
@MaharlikaAWA You said, "but on earth he DOES give them equal compassion but not saving grace". So are you veering from your original position, saying that God gives "compassion" but not grace? Let me ask you, was all the great things that God did with Pharaoh "compassion"? And does God make evil people, only to shower them with lovingkindness? Then send them to hell?
@Haukman66 Do you believe that God makes evil people? Like God makes them evil? or the people become evil as a result of the fall? Is God the author of sin? Who is responsible?
I am not verring from my original position. Common grace is not saving grace. Its not the same thing. Compassion goes along with common grace that all people enjoy. Some of the things God did with Pharaoh was compassion, he lived wealthy, had a family, was given over 10 warnings to let Israel go and more.
@MaharlikaAWA I asked you the question, "Does God make evil people"? You havent answered.
"Some of the things God did with Pharaoh was compassion, he lived wealthy, had a family, was given 10 warnings....." Now think about that statement. Is that really compassion? Riches profit nothing (Prov. 11:4). All that was doing , fattening him up for the slaughter. Check out Romans 9:17-18 to see why God did what he did with Pharaoh.
@Haukman66 No He does not. Your view is very schitzophrenic. Your God seems to be like this: I hate sin boo hoo its wrong. I will create it anyway and mechanistically put it inside people and control every aspect about them and download heresy/lust,blasphemy,hate,murder,honmosexuality and more into people! I will control their perverse acts and actually cause the people to do them for my pleasue (even though before I said I hate it). Then i will send them all to hell for my pleasure! YAY!"
@MaharlikaAWA You should really do some more reading my friend. I used to believe in common grace as you do. But you cant logically hold your position, if you believe all the bible has to say about God.
@Haukman66 Benevolent means good actions charitable deeds etc...obviously when it says the rain falls on the wicked as well as the righteous it is benevolence. Pray for thoe who persecute you. Do good things for strangers etc...when God helped out Ishmael who was NOT ELECT and its obvious he wasnt.
Its not illogical. Where in the bible does it say "God only hates non elect people and is only fattening them up for pleasure and in no way has ever loved or been kind to any of them." Its not there
@MaharlikaAWA Heres a thought. Look at Matt. 7:21-23. What does Jesus say to those false teachers, who claim mighty works in His name? "Depart from me, I NEVER KNEW YOU"!! Did Jesus not know who they were? Of course He did. The word "Knew", means He never had love for them. So you are saying, HE did love them, then He stopped loving them. This verse refutes your position.
@MaharlikaAWA As a matter of fact, Romans 2:5 says, they are storing up wrath for the day of wrath. Every good thing, the reprobate shares along with the elect, is sealing their destruction, heaping more and more judgement on their heads. This could never be called grace! There is no "unmerited favor" there. Call it mercy if you will, but not grace.
@Haukman66 But you could also say the wrath stored up is a result of their "supressing the truth in unrighteousness" as Romans 1:18 says. God gives out mercy and blessings in earthly living letting people know who He is and His nature, but they supress the truth and ignore God and hate Him. So it is a result of their sins that stores up wrath. You need to read back in the first chapter before the 2nd to understand why the wrath is being stored up. Verse 2:5 says the reason is unrepentence.
@MaharlikaAWA Of course the wrath stored up, is because of their suppressing the truth. They do this because they are slaves to sin. And why are they not repenting? Because God has not given them the ability to do so. This is not grace. I think we could agree, that we believe the same things, but the terms are not clear. God is not "sincerely wanting everyone saved". That is not scriptural at all.
@Haukman66 Well we probably believe some of the same things. But I dont think its true that God isnt sincere in his call for reptance of all people (Acts 17:30). In God's decretive will He does not will the non-elect to be saved but His offer is sincer to all men. It is their enslavement to sin that keeps them from repenting. They ought to repent but they dont want to. Its not against their will that they cant repent, they simply hate God out of their own self-determined desires.
@MaharlikaAWA You dont seem to grasp the contradictions to Gods character you have in your view. How could God be "sincerely hoping people will repent", when He infallibly knows they will not, because He has not decreed them to? Is God schizophrenic to you? Scripture knows nothing of 2 different wills of God. All that is, is something devised by man, to keep God from looking like a meanie to the reprobate.
@Haukman66 There are no contradictions. You just think there are. Does God sincerely command all people to repent as it says in Acts 17:30? Why would he command a reprobate to repent if He knows they never will? That to me is more schitzophrenic than anything you accuse me of.
@MaharlikaAWA God commands all to repent. Just because He commands all to repent, does not imply, ANYONE can. What, is God supposed to change His character, maybe lower His standards, because no one can? NOPE. God shows all His attributes this way. His Holiness, His righteousness, His wrath, His mercy, and grace.
Why would God give His law, if He knows, no one can keep them?
@Haukman66 That sounds schitzophrenic. God commands people as in demands they repent but its impossible for the person to repent. How is that any different from the words "God desires all to repent" even if they cant? Same idea just different words.
@MaharlikaAWA Again, your arminianism is showing through. How does one repent? God grants it to them. (2Tim. 2:25) How does one believe? God has ordained those who believe. (Acts 13:48) So we know, God is commanding those He infallibly knows will never repent, TO REPENT!!
@Haukman66 But it says He commands ALL people to repent. not just the elect. You are aisegeting the text now. I am not arminian. If I am arminian then John Calvin was arminian. It absolutely is illogical to think God is commanding people He knows are incapable of repenting to repent if you believe he has no desire for them to repent. Now your God is schitzophrenic. You are a hypercalvinist man.
@Haukman66 That is not my position. That is a straw man attack. God doesnt think they will, but he has a desire for them to repent but knows they wont. Its like if you are training a dog and put fresh steak on a plate and dont want him to eat it, but you know he will yet you still desire and command the dog not to. I dont believe anything came outside of God.
@MaharlikaAWA So you are saying God desires something, that is never going to take place? Again, you are irrational. Never mind what Psalm 115:3 says. Our God is in the heavens; he does ALL that He pleases!! Yet, you dont agree with this.
But He is unchangeable and who can turn him back? What He DESIRES that He does. -Job 23:13. Its so clear in scripture, but you wanna change what God has revealed about Himself.
@MaharlikaAWA You are appealing to men, I am showing you from scripture, your view is wrong!! You said "God doesnt think they will, but He has a desire that they will". I showed you from scripture, Job 23:13, that what He desires, HE DOES!! But you wanna come with some Matt Slick/.BB Warfield nonsense. You have not provided any scripture tonite, to prove your position. Why? Because you have none. ;)
@Haukman66 I do have scripture and I did provide some last night. Also this video has enough to prove you wrong as well. You dont want to answer this video but avoid it and keep pasting only one kind of verses.
@MaharlikaAWA I havent read Warfield, but he is not infallible. Scripture is!! I would love to stay up all night debating with you, but I have to work tomorrow. As I said, you havent provided any scripture to prove your point. I would suggest you bring scripture next time, and leave Matt Slick on the bench. Just saying.....;)
@Haukman66 Why do you not like Matt Slick? He is not my boss I just found that. You never refuted the interpretations of Rah you just left it.
I did bring scripture but you ignored it. Acts 17 has a good verse. I want you to admit you are a hypercalvinist.
No historic calvinists would agree with what you promote nor does the bible. Your verses do not even prove your case. yes God created wicked people but didnt great their wickedness.
@MaharlikaAWA I didnt say I dont like Slick. I actually listen to his podcasts, but he is wrong on some of his points. I showed you that even the copy/paste job you did, with Slicks stuff, those things were evil! But you wanna pick and choose, to make your theology stick. I have shown you, your error about God desiring things that never come to pass. (read Job 23). Yet you still have not answered this.
@Haukman66 I have read job 23. God did allow Satan to attack and hurt job, and yes God decreed it but God did not do the sinning or evil. Also you can say "Wow negative things sound evil" but that doesnt actually mean things are evil. The word Harm isnt evil. I could harm an enemy in self defense, that is not evil. Calamity can result as judgment that is not evil. You are the one trying to pidgenhole Rah as meaning ONLY MORAL evil/Sin. You are the one in error. Admit you are a hypercalvinist.
@MaharlikaAWA LOL. You havent read Job 23. It doesnt say anything about Satan attacking Job! It says "What He desires, that HE DOES!! But you say, "oh, He desires all people to repent, but they dont". Scripture refutes you. It says, If HE actually desires it, it WILL take place.
Also, you cant seem to follow context. In Is. 45. God is saying He does all these things. He forms light, AND darkness, He creates well being AND calamity. You cant get around it.
@Haukman66 Calamity does not = evil. God is righteous if he was also evil it would be a contradiction. Job is all about Job's problems of suffering that were brought upon by satan because God allowed it. Job is talking about God decreeing things for him. It says so in verse 14. In verse 13 that desire goes with his decree. Its not the same as his desire for godliness despite reprobates never repent. This verse taken in such a context as you would refute your beliefs of Gods command as well.
@MaharlikaAWA I never said God was evil. I said, He created it. Thats what Isaiah 45 says. Or should I say, that Genesis 8:21 says, for the imagination of mans heart is calamity from his youth? That is your theology my friend.
Now, you are saying, that God DOESNT do all that He desires! Ha! You have to, to make your position valid!
@Haukman66 God doesnt have to do something like make a person repent against their will...God can do whatever HE desires, but it doesnt mean that every sinful human will repent even though God desires them to, but has not decreed it to pass since he has no elected them. Why do you want to be a hypercalvinist?
Also the word Rah is not always translated evil it depends on the context it has several meanings which Matt Slick showed you. You only choose to interpret one meaning to fit yourbelief
@MaharlikaAWA "God can do whatever HE desires, but it doesnt mean that every sinful human will repent even though God desires them to...." That is an arminian/ roman catholic doctrine. You really should stop calling yourself reformed. The word Ra is used and translated at least 50 times in the OT, and it refers to a variety of ugly sins. Maybe look at Gen. 6:5 as well. And God saw saw that the wickedness(Ra) of man was great in the earth.
@Haukman66 If you want to be sily and force an interpretation on Rah then that is your problem. but you are wrong. And if you want God to be the author of a veriaty of ugly sins that makes God evil. yet you try to deny it. It makes no sense.
My theology stands with john calvin and the reformers. You label anything less than your extreme hypercalvinism as arminianism to your own folly. You only create strawman arguments.
@MaharlikaAWA Ha, again, you havent proven with scripture your view. But the verses I have posted, stand on their own. Yet you wanna come with Matt. 23:37? That is a favorite Arminian verse. You know it is. Its note even about Jesus desiring to gather Israel, its about the Pharisees trying to keep God from saving His elect.
What about Isaiah 46:10-11? It says, HE will DO all His GOOD Pleasure!! But you dont agree with scripture.
@Haukman66 you ar flat out wrong!!!! You are blind to what is obvious and want to force a faulty interpretation of scripture and ignore the mounds of verses that would contradict your view and keep saying Job 23! Job 23! You make no sense. I do agree with Is. but I dont agree with your interpretation of understanding of it. According to you John Calvin was an arminian. Seriously you are rediculus. You only want to hate everyone and assume you are some special elect person.
@MaharlikaAWA Yeah, I think we are done here dude. Your arminian claws are coming out. I think you should go read a few theology books by some good authors. I have used plenty of verses, but you deny them As a matter of fact, you havent refuted any of the ones I have used to show your illogical view. ALL THAT HE DESIRES, THAT HE DOES!!! Oh, but that doesnt mean for anyone but Job,. huh? LOL.
@Haukman66 no, you are just an arrogant fool. typical of what proverbs talks against. Yeah we are done. you thnk john calvin is arminian you are a joke. I read a lot of books from many great authors like CH Spurgeon, John calvin, Martin Luther, John Piper, john macArthur. Also, BB warfield, Johnothan Edwards and more they all do not agree with what you believe. You are BEYOND calvinism and a heretic. Your hyper-calvinistic venom is stinking up the comments section. im out.
@MaharlikaAWA Thats typical, of people like you, who dont like what the bible has to say. You somehow think its all about you or something. I have never called you a heretic. That was uncalled for. I agree with alot of what the men you named say. I just dont agree with them on "common grace", which I dont see in scripture. Grace is only given to the elect. You just dont want to see my side. I have provided info to read, (which you refused). What does that say about you?
/// Hmmm... I do not see the word "Decretively" in that text!!!! Can you show it to me? ///
Thats old!
(1) What's known as the "CONTEXT" of Scripture points that distinction out.
and
(2) The word "incarnation" or "Bible" or "Trinity" doesnt appear in the text of Scripture either, and yet they are Scriptural terms - as are "DECRETIVE" and "BENEVOLENT"
@doctorh2005 You still have not shown, anywhere in scripture, where God is showing grace, benevolence, or love to the reprobate. You cant do it, because its not there. Instead, you add words to texts like Job 23, and 2Peter 3:9. Nevermind, that verse is talking about the elect, not all unregenerate mankind.
@doctorh2005 Yeah I pointed this out that your video proves him wrong and he ignored it. He wont respond to your video but like a retarded parrot just keeps slurring the same nonsense over and over even when you answer it properly.
@MaharlikaAWA Hmmm. I was just looking through Calvins Institutes, and found a "nugget"!
"Every promise which God makes is evidence of his good will. This is invariably true, and is not inconsistent with the fact, that the large benefits which the divine liberality is constantly bestowing on the wicked are preparing them for heavier judgment."
Wow, does this sound like grace? I guess Calvin was a heretic too?
/// "the divine liberality is constantly bestowing on the wicked are preparing them for heavier judgment." ///
That is viewed from the OUTSET - from human perspective. But, apart from God saying "Do I have ANY pleasure in the death of a wicked Person?"... Paul says... "God's kindness is meant to lead to repentance".
Likewise, God's gifts of common grace and the blessings (which proceed from His attribute of 'Lovingkindness') are expressions of His kindness IN SPITE of sin/guilt
@doctorh2005 "Paul says...Gods kindness is meant to lead to repentance". This is referring to the elect!! Do the reprobate repent? Gimme a break. Gods kindness is to His people, the elect. Those who are not His people, are storing up wrath for the day of wrath!!!!
All of these verse show God expressing a desire that does not come about because he has not decreed it. Your hypercalvinistic beliefs do not work with these verses so you choose to ignore them.
@MaharlikaAWA You are kidding me right? This is what you have? Deut. 5:29- Oh that they had such a mind as this? That is not showing God desiring something. Sorry. 32:29? "If they were wise, they would understand this; they would discern their latter end." What?! I am amazed.
I guess you dont know, the word used for "Oh That" in Hebrew, is Loo, Loo, Loo, which means, "If". So properly translated it says, IF my people.
@Haukman66 That would still mean the same thing. If or Oh that. It doesnt matter. It still is expressing a desire that they would turn from sins. When you say "if" it sounds like you are implying that "if they turn away from sins they can got o heaven" but then God hasnt elected them. So it makes no sense according to your view but you try to pretend it does. All of those verses are expressing a DESIRE or want of something. Why are you a hypercalvinist?
@MaharlikaAWA Calvin goes on in the same section, and says this:" Now, without controversy, God loves no man out of Christ." (Book 3 Chapter 2 Section 32.)
/// Calvin goes on in the same section, and says this:" Now, without controversy, God loves no man out of Christ." ///
Since Calvin's day, theology has deepened considerably - with the distinction between God's "SALVIFIC" or "saving" love (bestowed upon the elect only).... and God's "BENEVOLENT" lovingkindness experienced by all without exception.
Common Grace is Biblical - as MATTHEW 5 shows. I will debate that one aswell.
@doctorh2005 Matt. 5 never says God loves the evil. Just because He sends rain, and sun on them, doesnt show love. It is actually storing up more wrath for them, as Calvin clearly stated.
/// Matt. 5 never says God loves the evil. Just because He sends rain, and sun on them, doesnt show love ///
Actually, the Lord Jesus said "Love your enemies....". Why? for God HIMSELF likewise loves all of HIS enemies, and expresses His lovingkindness towards them in the sun, rain, food, air, etc. The Lord implied that the sun, moon etc are explicitly intended to be expressions of His lovingkindness.
God's commandments are a MIRROR IMAGE of who He is.
/// You are kidding me right? This is what you have? Deut. 5:29- Oh that they had such a mind as this? That is not showing God desiring something. ///
Are you trying to say that the words "OH THAT" do not show an explicit "desire"?????
@doctorh2005 You using Matt. 23:37 is clearly bringing out your arminian roots. You do realize, Jesus saying, "but you were not willing", does not imply, He is not able to gather the children of Israel. It is just stressing the point, that the Pharisees, were trying to stand in the way of the elect coming to Christ.
As for Ezek. 33:11, you gonna add the word "desire" into the text? Cuz thats what you need to do, to make your point. You cant get your ideas from just plain scripture.
/// I guess you dont know, the word used for "Oh That" in Hebrew, is Loo, Loo, Loo, which means, "If". So properly translated it says, IF my people ///
John Murray clearly refuted that idea! (if you bothered to read the document).
@Haukman66 Christ dwells within us not for the purpose of sinking our being into His being, nor of substituting Himself for us as the agent in our activities; much less of seizing our wills and operating them for us in contradiction to our own immanent mind; but to operate directly upon us, to make us good, that our works, freely done by us, may under His continual leading, be good also.
@Haukman66 Your God seems to have no true love or even desire genuine worship of Himself as it is forced or completely controlled. John calvin did not teach anything like this you speak of.
@MaharlikaAWA "Your God seems to have no true love or even desire genuine worship of Himself as it is forced or completely controlled."
I am starting to see your arminian tendencies coming out. This is why common grace is a myth. It leads back to arminianism. Your comments are very telling. If you are a calvinist, you should know, Gods grace is irrisistable to the elect.
@Haukman66 I know about irrisistible grace. I am in no way arminian. You are just going in the most extreme opposite direction from arniniamism and creating some of the same mistakes.
@MaharlikaAWA No, I am taking what scripture says, at face value. You still have not answered Is. 45, and the word Rah! It is the same word used in Gen. 8. And God says in Is. 45 He creates it. So was He just fibbing, or are you eisegeting the text?
@Haukman66 Where is Gen 8 does it say Rah? Also my bible does not say God created wicked but disaster. Are you saying all the english translations are heretical then and have messed up?
@MaharlikaAWA Do you have esword? I am talking about the greek word. You do realize, that the bible was not written in english? Gen 8:21- for the intention of mans heart is evil(Rah) from his youth. The KJV says, in Isaiah 45:7-I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil(Rah): I the LORD do all these things. Were they wrong?
@Haukman66 I dont know about this so I cant answer you. but I dont believe that God created evil and i think the word Rah must have other meanings as well and not only sinful things.
@MaharlikaAWA The Lord has made EVERYTHING for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.-Proverbs 16:4. Notice, that says everything!! Even the wicked!!
@Haukman66 the Hebrew word for evil, "rah," is used in many different ways in the Bible. In the KJV Bible it occurs 663 times. 431 times it is translated as "evil." The other 232 times it is translated as "wicked," "bad," "hurt," "harm," "ill," "sorrow," "mischief," "displeased," "adversity," "affliction," "trouble," "calamity," "grievous," "misery," and "trouble."
@MaharlikaAWA Is "hurt" evil? Is "harm" evil? Is "ill" evil? Is "sorrow" evil? Is "mischief" evil? LOL. You just proved my point. And the fact you got your info from Slick is very telling.
@Haukman66 So we can see that the word does not require that it be translated as "evil." This is why different Bibles translate this verse differently. It is translated as "calamity" by the NASB and NKJV; "disaster" by the NIV; and "woe" by the RSV. carm dot org told me that refute it.
@MaharlikaAWA Yeah, you dont know me, but Skype is a way to talk, without all this typing. Its not like we have to give out personal information to each other. But thats cool. No biggie. But as I said, you need to read that article without your presuppositions obscuring your thinking. As I said, I used to buy into your position.
@MaharlikaAWA I suggest you read an article on Vincent Cheungs website, title The Myth of Common Grace. Look it up on google, and read it. Then let me know what you think. And then, maybe you could answer my question I asked earlier. ;)
@Haukman66 I dont undestand what you mean by "maybe you could answer my qiestion i asked earlier." I already did answer everything you asked.
Common grace is not a myth. It is a fact. Do you seriously believe God creates reprobates for the entire purpose of hating them? As in He puts sin in them on purpose in order to hate them. Is God the author of sin? Is God benevolent?
@MaharlikaAWA You have not read the article I pointed you to. You must not care about truth. I pointed you to Romans 9. What was Gods whole purpose in raising Pharaoh up? Yes, God creates reprobates. Who do you think creates them? Is God the author of sin? That is a loaded question. Depends on how you look at it. What does Isaiah 45:7 say? Better yet, go and read Proverbs 16:4. Then tell me, what God has made for its purpose.
@Haukman66 I briefly looked at the article. Vincent Chueng straight up says God is the author of sin. Do you agree? You say you dont know how to answer it (loaded question).
I know about Romans 9 but I dont see it as God authoring sin or creating it inside Pharaoh. You will have to be specific as to what exactly about Romans 9 you are trying to explain.
Is 45:7 says God creates light and darkness success disaster etc. That doesnt mean sin or coercion. Prov 16:4 does not mean God madewickedsin
@MaharlikaAWA What do you think Is 45:7 means? It says He creates evil. The Hebrew word, is Rah, which means exactly that! Maybe you should go read Gen. 8:21. The word for Evil in mans heart, is the same exact word used in Isaiah 45. Prov. 16 says HE makes all things for HIS purposes, even the wicked!!! Why cant you accept Gods word?
@Haukman66 No, God did not create sin. God is holy and He would not create that which is contrary to His nature. Sinfulness is the opposite of holiness. It is lawlessness (1 John 3:4). God is the author of the Law which is a reflection of His holy character (Exodus 20). Therefore, God cannot create that which is in direct violation of the Law any more than a person can wish himself to be bigger than the sun. It just isn’t possible.
@MaharlikaAWA So you are saying, something came about, outside of God? Is that your position? God had no say in the matter? I wonder how that serpent ended up in the garden? I wonder why God told Adam to not eat the fruit, when He already knew he would? How did that tree get in the garden? Hmmm.....
Murray's book, which is really a report, is confusing at best. It twists the word "desire" and makes it seem impossible for God to contradict Himself. Better to understand this is the idea that God does NOT desire the death of the elect.
bygracethrufaith119 6 days ago
@bygracethrufaith119
/// It twists the word "desire" and makes it seem impossible for God to contradict Himself. ///
God does not contradict Himself.
/// God does NOT desire the death of the elect ///
In the actual text, God says "I do not desire the death of THE ONE WHO DIES", and also "I do not desire the death of the wicked".
Also, how would you explain all those verses where God expresses a "desire" for things that He has not decreed to come to pass?.
doctorh2005 5 days ago
@bygracethrufaith119
Many times, God said "OH THAT.... you HAD DONE this".
Thats a clear expression of a desire for something that He had decreed the opposite to happen.
Have you seen all the video? :-)
doctorh2005 5 days ago
Jesus Christ is NOT who catholics Idolize or worship.They pray to dead saints and Mary among other abominations.This 1900 year old false church was responsible for the murder of 10s of 1000s of True Followers of Jesus and they still seek to kill whatever The Spirit of Truth seeks to do. These are anti-christ spirits that will lead you to hell, dont buy their Lies.Catholics were going to be stopped from entrance into USA by Order of President Lincoln but a catholic sympathizer (Booth) Killed Him
randywatchingbush 3 weeks ago
@randywatchingbush
Sorry, but whats this gotta do with the Free Offer of the Gospel??? : )
doctorh2005 3 weeks ago
@randywatchingbush He is the God of the living, none of the saints is dead.
Jesusisthetreeoflife 11 hours ago
....
randywatchingbush 3 weeks ago
I have ordered the Book and look foward to receiving it in the mail next week.
BaptistPrayer 2 months ago
@BaptistPrayer
Hey bro! Did you manage to get the book afterwards? :-)
doctorh2005 3 weeks ago
After watching many of your videos and agreeing with most of it, this is the first video i have come across where i can't find myself agreeing. Romans 9 says some vessels are prepared for destruction. proverbs 16:4 says that all is made for the LORD, yes even the WICKED for the day of evil. Another place i think it says god desires NOT to reveal himself to certain people. And how does this line up with limited atonement? If god desired all to be saved he would, but he did not. Please explain
Krustbox 7 months ago
@Krustbox
/// Romans 9... proverbs 16:4... god desires NOT to reveal himself to certain people... limited atonement?
Hey bro! Good point. Those verses of Scripture refer not to the Free Offer (God's Benevolent will/desire), but to His "Decretive" will - what He has decreed to happen. God has decreed many things to happen that are contrary to His nature (e.g. sin)
/// If god desired all to be saved he would ///
If you mean "decretively" desired, then yes. but not in this case.
doctorh2005 7 months ago
@doctorh2005 this is very interesting stuff, i will have to pick up that booklet asap. thanks for responding
Krustbox 7 months ago
Francis Turretin on Ezek. 18-"Although God declares that he ‘does not will the death of the wicked, but that he turn from his way and live,’ it does not follow that he has willed and planned from eternity the conversion and life of everyone, [even] subject to any condition, for … it is certain that this refers to God’s will as commanding, not to the will of his good pleasure…."
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66
/// Francis Turretin on Ezek. 18-"Although God declares that he ‘does not will the death of the wicked, but that he turn from his way and live,’ it does not follow that he has willed and planned from eternity the conversion and life of everyone ///
Again, that doesnt contradict the Free Offer - for we freely confess that GOd "DECRETIVELY" wills only some to be saved (which is what Turretin is referring to), but that He BENEVOLENTLY desires all to repent.
doctorh2005 7 months ago
"If it is equally in God’s power to convert men as well as to create them, it follows that the reprobate are not converted, because God does not wish their conversion; for if he wished it he could do it: and hence it appears that he does not wish it." -John Calvin
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66
/// God does not wish their conversion; for if he wished it he could do it: and hence it appears that he does not wish it... John Calvin ///
Again, Calvin is referring to God's DECRETIVE will/wish, not His BENEVOLENT desire (or the Free Offer).
For Calvin elsewhere says...
"He [BENEVOLENTLY] invites to Himself BOTH THE REPROBATE 'AND' THE ELECT IN COMMON; but the former, by their ingratitude, defraud themselves of this inestimable blessing."
[JOHN CALVIN (Psalm 16:7)]
doctorh2005 7 months ago
I wonder what people in your position do with Romans 9:22- What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience VESSELS OF WRATH PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION. How are they "prepared" for destruction? Maybe all the things you call "grace"? Just as Calvin stated.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66
/// Romans 9:22- What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience VESSELS OF WRATH PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION. How are they "prepared" for destruction? ///
Again, that is referring to what God has planned DECRETIVELY - what SHALL happen, or what He has DECRETIVELY willed.
However, God shows in Scripture explicit "desires" for things that He had not DECREED to come about. ("OH THAT..." etc)
doctorh2005 7 months ago
@Haukman66
/// As for Ezek. 33:11, you gonna add the word "desire" into the text? Cuz thats what you need to do, to make your point. ///
Let me likewise ask YOU a question...
As for ROM.2:4, you're gonna add the word "elect" into the text? Because I can't see it there.
doctorh2005 7 months ago
So God gets everything He doesn't really want b/c He decreed it for His Glory so He can be miserable for all eternity.
1689Baptist 7 months ago
@1689Baptist
/// So God gets everything He doesn't really want ///
(1) "Everything"???? Where did THAT come from??? Lol.
(2) The words "really want" are simply an attempt to blurr two clear distinct terms, and are therefore a "Straw Man".
I would word it like this.
All that He DECRETIVELY wills will happen.
However, (from the "OH THAT" etc verses mentioned in this video) not all that He BENEVOLENTLY desires happens.
I go with Scripture, and not exaggerated ideology.
doctorh2005 7 months ago
@doctorh2005 It sound as if you are teaching that God really desires the salvation of the reprobate, but for some reason it will further His Glory more if He reprobates them instead of saving them, so now to fulfill His Glory it is like a bitter pill He must take. Does He now loath Himself for all eternity for having such a warped sense of Glory?
1689Baptist 7 months ago
@1689Baptist
/// It sound as if you are teaching that God really desires the salvation of the reprobate ///
Again, the word "really" doesnt do justice. The word is either "BENEVOLENTLY" or "DECRETIVELY".
We should say "God DECRETIVELY wills the destruction of the reprobate", but (from EZEKIEL 33:11 and ISAIAH 45:22 etc) He "BENEVOLENTLY desires [all] the wicked to comply with the conditions mentioned within the Gospel overture [aka... repentance]."
There is no contradiction.
doctorh2005 7 months ago
/// so now to fulfill His Glory it is like a bitter pill He must take. Does He now loath Himself for all eternity for having such a warped sense of Glory? ///
Beware: Mockery pertains to blasphemy. Our job is to go with what SCRIPTURE says, regardless whether we can understand it incomprehensibly within our 3 pound human brains or not."
As John Murray says, "This is indeed mysterious"
Have you actually READ the document yet btw?????
doctorh2005 7 months ago
Good video this helped me out a lot!! Thanks!! hypercalvinists only choose to believe in one side of the coin!
Also other theology I know says this is CH Spurgeon (greatest preacher ever and 5 point calvinist), John Calvin mentions it, Martin Luther as well. But the hypercalvinists ignore it or they are blind to it when they read these guys. Or they simply say "I dont care calvinism doesnt mean we follow john calvin."
We have to fight this heresy man! I think its more dangerous than armins
MaharlikaAWA 8 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA What is a hypercalvinist to you? Is not believing in "common grace" heresy? Its not biblical, if you know what grace is.
Haukman66 8 months ago
@Haukman66 Grace isnt only saving grace. There is a difference. God blessing people and giving them the good things in life like friends and family etc, provisions is grace. They dont deserve such things but God does it anyway out of compassion. Saving grace is an intentional special grace given that gives a man the ability to repent and believe. How is this unbiblical?
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA Where in scripture is there 2 different types of grace? The reprobate, does not get grace at all. You can call it mercy, but never grace. When God gives people sunshine, rain, and "friends" as you say, it is only sealing their destruction. That is not grace. Why did God raise Pharoah up?
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66
/// When God gives people sunshine, rain, and "friends" as you say, it is only sealing their destruction. ///
WRONG. Its more than that. The Lord Jesus, in the sermon on the mount, shows us that in the same way as God commands us to love every single one of our enemies, God likewise bestows "benevolent" lovingkindness to every single one of HIS enemies. All of God's commands proceed from His very nature. And sun, rain, etc, are meant to be expressions of His lovingkindness.
doctorh2005 7 months ago
@doctorh2005 "and sun, rain,etc. are meant to be expressions of His lovingkindness". You are showing, you have no understanding of Gods judgement. These people, who never repent, are storing up wrath for the day of judgement, by soaking up them rays of sunshine you claim are grace. I dont see the word grace used in connection with the wicked in scripture. He gives grace to the humble, never to the prideful.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66
/// You can call it mercy, but never grace ///
Says WHO????
Many prominent theologians actually support Common Grace - HODGE, BERKHOF, JOHN MURRAY, GRUDEM, BAVINCK, ROBERT REYMOND....
Only those who follow "Hoeksema" seem to think that its wrong - and Hoeksema is wrong on that one. Differentiating between God's BENEVOLENT lovingkindness and His SALVIFIC lovingkindness (as MURRAY so clearly points out) is the key to seeing this in Scripture.
doctorh2005 7 months ago
@doctorh2005 I sure would love for you to provide us, with proof there is 2 different types of lovingkindness in scripture. All those names you listed, can be wrong. I mean Grudem believes in an old earth. I have his Systematic Theology. He is wrong.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 Salvation is in no way conditional. It is unconditional election.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA Tell that to the Doctor!
Haukman66 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA
Hey bro, its ok to say "Salvation is conditioned upon repentance and faith" aslong as we maintain that its (1) salvation "in the APPLICATORY sense" (not the accomplishment) - the "applying" cause of salvation to the sinner is faith - saving faith (and repentance) - but (2) we also maintain that man in and of his own efforts, ability, power, decision, CANNOT produce this saving faith (which is the applicatory cause), because GOD produces it in us. (BERKHOF supports this)
doctorh2005 7 months ago
@doctorh2005 So what you are saying is that election is actually uncodnitional because God is the one who does it, but then it puts in us an ability to repent which is the "condition" of faith. We are given faith which causes us to repent. If we dont repent we are not in the condition of salvation? Do you follow TULIP?
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA
Yeah I follow tulip. Repentance includes faith - and Jesus said "unless you repent you will all perish" (LUKE 13:3), so repentance (and faith) are conditions for "not perishing" - but Calvinism says that God "causes" us (by His irresistible grace) to fulfill those conditions" - as John Owen said.
Good book to get is "Redemption Accomplished and Applied" by John Murray.
doctorh2005 7 months ago
/// but then it puts in us an ability ///
No it doesnt mean that.
/// We are given faith which causes us to repent ///
Repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin.
doctorh2005 7 months ago
@doctorh2005 Then why did you say salvation is conditional? I dont believe it is conditional. When you say "salvation is conditioned..." what does it mean? I am not trying to fight you I sincerely want to understand.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@doctorh2005" Hey bro, its ok to say "Salvation is conditioned upon repentance and faith" aslong as we maintain that its (1) salvation "in the APPLICATORY sense"
Now your just spewing heresy dude. there are no conditions on salvation. Faith and Repentance are FRUITS of regeneration! Salvation comes by the grace of God. Unconditionally!
Haukman66 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA Murray’s exegesis relies on an ambiguity in the word will. Will can mean either command or decree. It is God’s will (command) that murder not be committed, and it is his will (decree) that Jesus should be murdered. There is no contradiction in this statement once one sorts out the two meanings of the word will in Scripture. But Murray would have us believe that God wills and not wills murder—and salvation—in a similar sense.
Cont...
1689Baptist 8 months ago
Cont...
He fails repeatedly to distinguish between God’s decree and God’s command. That is why his use of the word impliedly fails in this passage. God is commanding all the ends of the Earth to look to him and be saved. He is not wishing, still less decreeing. God is unequivocal, but Murray is not.
1689Baptist 8 months ago
@1689Baptist Why would God command something, as in demand it happen, if He never even intended it to happen? How is that logical and what purpose does it serve?
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA You are speaking like an Arminian. Why does God command all men everywhere to repent when He know they are totally depraved and cannot come? Gods Word never returns void it accomplishes what He intends for it to do, so when He commands it will bring His elect to Christ and/or further sanctification, or it will add to and strengthen reprobation by causing further rebellion.
1689Baptist 7 months ago
@1689Baptist I am in no way an arminian. Are you trying to say that God commands people to repent and wants them to repent? Or he has absolutely no intention of them repenting and actually does not have any want of them to repent? Why does God command it if he doesnt want it to happen? If God only was calling the elect wouldnt it say "God calls only the elect to repent.?" But the bible only says "God calls all men to repent!" There is no specification. yet you say God has no desire for it.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@1689Baptist So how is God being logical and not being a schitzophrenic then according to your view?
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
The hypercalvinists today are in denial. They deny they are hypercalvinists and seem to think they arnt, but everything they are teaching to people is hypercalvinism. They dont even see the error of their ways and behave like elitists. They are just heretics and delusional. Its very sad. Especially the ones who are out "street preaching" to people.
MaharlikaAWA 8 months ago
You sound like Allister Beg (or hoever you spell his last name). Did you know that?
MaharlikaAWA 8 months ago
John Murray is Awesomeeeeeee. Writes some of the best biographies available, I think.
mrjoshua1414 8 months ago
@ObeyTheGospelOrDie
/// "Look here, you dingleberry, you have God desiring something He has not decreed to happen" ///
(1)
I would rather be classed as a Bible-believing "dingleberry" anyday rather than one who believes only what he can "fully comprehend" within his 3pound fallen human brain.
Comprende?
(2)
God says "OH THAT you had heeded My commandments!" - proof positive that God sometimes expresses a "desire" for something He had not DECREED to happen.
Whos the dingleberry???
doctorh2005 9 months ago
Looks like this guy has been having Bible study with Van Til!
LOL!
I like how Job 23:13 and Psalm 115:3 were not even mentioned in your video!
I guess they don't matter to you.....it's MYSTERIOUS!
LOL!
ObeyTheGospelOrDie 9 months ago
@ObeyTheGospelOrDie
/// I like how Job 23:13 and Psalm 115:3 were not even mentioned in your video! ///
There is no contradiction!
From the "OH THAT" verses of Scripture being "benevolent" and not "decretive" desires/pleasure/will, we now interpret the following...
JOB 23:13
"What He desires DECRETIVELY, that He does."
PSALM 115:3
"Our God is in the heavens; He does all that He DECRETIVELY pleases."
or "He does all that He is pleased to DECREE".
Go with plain Scripture.
doctorh2005 9 months ago
@doctorh2005 Long time no talk too. So can you answer my question I posed about 4 or 5 months ago? I asked you what you know about evolution. You told me you were working a lot of over time and had a hard time getting back to me.
Is that still the case?
metalsusa1 8 months ago
@ObeyTheGospelOrDie
Well??? Don't you have something to defend yourself in light of these comments?
I will be doing a video defending Common Grace soon, exposing Herman Hoeksema for the heretic that he is regarding this topic.
doctorh2005 8 months ago
@ObeyTheGospelOrDie
Well???? You havent refuted anything with those verses, you only supported what I said in my video refuting "FOG".
Have you anything ELSE to offer???
doctorh2005 8 months ago
This is what happens when a person is still worshiping the Arminian God and has yet to come to grips with the Gospel being NEWS not an offer.
This is what happens when someone is oblivious to law/Gospel distinction.
This is what happens when someone does not understand justification is conditioned on the righteousness of Christ alone and that faith is how we receive news; not a condition of justification.
This is a joke. Common grace and the FOG are both unscriptural.
ObeyTheGospelOrDie 9 months ago
@ObeyTheGospelOrDie
/// justification is conditioned on the righteousness of Christ alone ///
Straw Man.
/// and that faith is how we receive news; not a condition of salvation ///
Actually, its BOTH how we receive AND a condition.... Read what the Puritan, Calvinist divine, JOHN OWEN stated: "What do the preachers of the gospel OFFER to them to whom the Word is preached? Is it not life and salvation through Christ, UPON THE CONDITION of faith and repentance?"
LOL!
doctorh2005 9 months ago
@doctorh2005 LOL, so is salvation conditional? I had heard a rumor you were a calvinist. Not so?
Haukman66 8 months ago
@Haukman66 A hyper-Calvinist is someone who either:
Denies that the gospel call applies to all who hear, OR
Denies that faith is the duty of every sinner, OR
Denies that the gospel makes any "offer" of Christ, salvation, or mercy to the non-elect (or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal), OR
Denies that there is such a thing as "common grace," OR
Denies that God has any sort of love for the non-elect.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA So now you are redefining terms? Hyper-Calvinism, says that we dont need to evangelize, because God has already chosen those to be saved. You are adding your own terms to the mix.
Where did Hyper calvinism state anything about 'common grace'? And if God loves all, who does He hate?
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 I am not re-defining terms. You can try to witness to people or evangelie and still be a hypercalvinist thats not the only defining factor. Hyper calvinists usually dont believe in common grace. God hates the wicked who are in hell, but on earth he DOES give them equal compassion but not saving grace.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA You said, "but on earth he DOES give them equal compassion but not saving grace". So are you veering from your original position, saying that God gives "compassion" but not grace? Let me ask you, was all the great things that God did with Pharaoh "compassion"? And does God make evil people, only to shower them with lovingkindness? Then send them to hell?
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 Do you believe that God makes evil people? Like God makes them evil? or the people become evil as a result of the fall? Is God the author of sin? Who is responsible?
I am not verring from my original position. Common grace is not saving grace. Its not the same thing. Compassion goes along with common grace that all people enjoy. Some of the things God did with Pharaoh was compassion, he lived wealthy, had a family, was given over 10 warnings to let Israel go and more.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA I asked you the question, "Does God make evil people"? You havent answered.
"Some of the things God did with Pharaoh was compassion, he lived wealthy, had a family, was given 10 warnings....." Now think about that statement. Is that really compassion? Riches profit nothing (Prov. 11:4). All that was doing , fattening him up for the slaughter. Check out Romans 9:17-18 to see why God did what he did with Pharaoh.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 No He does not. Your view is very schitzophrenic. Your God seems to be like this: I hate sin boo hoo its wrong. I will create it anyway and mechanistically put it inside people and control every aspect about them and download heresy/lust,blasphemy,hate,murder,honmosexuality and more into people! I will control their perverse acts and actually cause the people to do them for my pleasue (even though before I said I hate it). Then i will send them all to hell for my pleasure! YAY!"
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA You should really do some more reading my friend. I used to believe in common grace as you do. But you cant logically hold your position, if you believe all the bible has to say about God.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 You arnt believing in Gods benevolent love which is taught in the Bible. You only choose one side of the coin.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA Your position is illogical. Where is Benevolent love for the reprobate, in the bible? I'll be waiting for a verse.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 Benevolent means good actions charitable deeds etc...obviously when it says the rain falls on the wicked as well as the righteous it is benevolence. Pray for thoe who persecute you. Do good things for strangers etc...when God helped out Ishmael who was NOT ELECT and its obvious he wasnt.
Its not illogical. Where in the bible does it say "God only hates non elect people and is only fattening them up for pleasure and in no way has ever loved or been kind to any of them." Its not there
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA Heres a thought. Look at Matt. 7:21-23. What does Jesus say to those false teachers, who claim mighty works in His name? "Depart from me, I NEVER KNEW YOU"!! Did Jesus not know who they were? Of course He did. The word "Knew", means He never had love for them. So you are saying, HE did love them, then He stopped loving them. This verse refutes your position.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA As a matter of fact, Romans 2:5 says, they are storing up wrath for the day of wrath. Every good thing, the reprobate shares along with the elect, is sealing their destruction, heaping more and more judgement on their heads. This could never be called grace! There is no "unmerited favor" there. Call it mercy if you will, but not grace.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 But you could also say the wrath stored up is a result of their "supressing the truth in unrighteousness" as Romans 1:18 says. God gives out mercy and blessings in earthly living letting people know who He is and His nature, but they supress the truth and ignore God and hate Him. So it is a result of their sins that stores up wrath. You need to read back in the first chapter before the 2nd to understand why the wrath is being stored up. Verse 2:5 says the reason is unrepentence.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA Of course the wrath stored up, is because of their suppressing the truth. They do this because they are slaves to sin. And why are they not repenting? Because God has not given them the ability to do so. This is not grace. I think we could agree, that we believe the same things, but the terms are not clear. God is not "sincerely wanting everyone saved". That is not scriptural at all.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 Well we probably believe some of the same things. But I dont think its true that God isnt sincere in his call for reptance of all people (Acts 17:30). In God's decretive will He does not will the non-elect to be saved but His offer is sincer to all men. It is their enslavement to sin that keeps them from repenting. They ought to repent but they dont want to. Its not against their will that they cant repent, they simply hate God out of their own self-determined desires.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA You dont seem to grasp the contradictions to Gods character you have in your view. How could God be "sincerely hoping people will repent", when He infallibly knows they will not, because He has not decreed them to? Is God schizophrenic to you? Scripture knows nothing of 2 different wills of God. All that is, is something devised by man, to keep God from looking like a meanie to the reprobate.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 There are no contradictions. You just think there are. Does God sincerely command all people to repent as it says in Acts 17:30? Why would he command a reprobate to repent if He knows they never will? That to me is more schitzophrenic than anything you accuse me of.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA God commands all to repent. Just because He commands all to repent, does not imply, ANYONE can. What, is God supposed to change His character, maybe lower His standards, because no one can? NOPE. God shows all His attributes this way. His Holiness, His righteousness, His wrath, His mercy, and grace.
Why would God give His law, if He knows, no one can keep them?
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 That sounds schitzophrenic. God commands people as in demands they repent but its impossible for the person to repent. How is that any different from the words "God desires all to repent" even if they cant? Same idea just different words.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA Again, your arminianism is showing through. How does one repent? God grants it to them. (2Tim. 2:25) How does one believe? God has ordained those who believe. (Acts 13:48) So we know, God is commanding those He infallibly knows will never repent, TO REPENT!!
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 But it says He commands ALL people to repent. not just the elect. You are aisegeting the text now. I am not arminian. If I am arminian then John Calvin was arminian. It absolutely is illogical to think God is commanding people He knows are incapable of repenting to repent if you believe he has no desire for them to repent. Now your God is schitzophrenic. You are a hypercalvinist man.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
Comment removed
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 That is not my position. That is a straw man attack. God doesnt think they will, but he has a desire for them to repent but knows they wont. Its like if you are training a dog and put fresh steak on a plate and dont want him to eat it, but you know he will yet you still desire and command the dog not to. I dont believe anything came outside of God.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA So you are saying God desires something, that is never going to take place? Again, you are irrational. Never mind what Psalm 115:3 says. Our God is in the heavens; he does ALL that He pleases!! Yet, you dont agree with this.
But He is unchangeable and who can turn him back? What He DESIRES that He does. -Job 23:13. Its so clear in scripture, but you wanna change what God has revealed about Himself.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 You are making straw man arguments. You are the one who is not being logical...
Was BB Warfield an arminian in your view?
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA You are appealing to men, I am showing you from scripture, your view is wrong!! You said "God doesnt think they will, but He has a desire that they will". I showed you from scripture, Job 23:13, that what He desires, HE DOES!! But you wanna come with some Matt Slick/.BB Warfield nonsense. You have not provided any scripture tonite, to prove your position. Why? Because you have none. ;)
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 I do have scripture and I did provide some last night. Also this video has enough to prove you wrong as well. You dont want to answer this video but avoid it and keep pasting only one kind of verses.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA All it takes is one verse to refute this video. LOL.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 Which one...?
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@Haukman66 Job 23:13. Nuff said.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA I havent read Warfield, but he is not infallible. Scripture is!! I would love to stay up all night debating with you, but I have to work tomorrow. As I said, you havent provided any scripture to prove your point. I would suggest you bring scripture next time, and leave Matt Slick on the bench. Just saying.....;)
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 Why do you not like Matt Slick? He is not my boss I just found that. You never refuted the interpretations of Rah you just left it.
I did bring scripture but you ignored it. Acts 17 has a good verse. I want you to admit you are a hypercalvinist.
No historic calvinists would agree with what you promote nor does the bible. Your verses do not even prove your case. yes God created wicked people but didnt great their wickedness.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA I didnt say I dont like Slick. I actually listen to his podcasts, but he is wrong on some of his points. I showed you that even the copy/paste job you did, with Slicks stuff, those things were evil! But you wanna pick and choose, to make your theology stick. I have shown you, your error about God desiring things that never come to pass. (read Job 23). Yet you still have not answered this.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 I have read job 23. God did allow Satan to attack and hurt job, and yes God decreed it but God did not do the sinning or evil. Also you can say "Wow negative things sound evil" but that doesnt actually mean things are evil. The word Harm isnt evil. I could harm an enemy in self defense, that is not evil. Calamity can result as judgment that is not evil. You are the one trying to pidgenhole Rah as meaning ONLY MORAL evil/Sin. You are the one in error. Admit you are a hypercalvinist.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA LOL. You havent read Job 23. It doesnt say anything about Satan attacking Job! It says "What He desires, that HE DOES!! But you say, "oh, He desires all people to repent, but they dont". Scripture refutes you. It says, If HE actually desires it, it WILL take place.
Also, you cant seem to follow context. In Is. 45. God is saying He does all these things. He forms light, AND darkness, He creates well being AND calamity. You cant get around it.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 Calamity does not = evil. God is righteous if he was also evil it would be a contradiction. Job is all about Job's problems of suffering that were brought upon by satan because God allowed it. Job is talking about God decreeing things for him. It says so in verse 14. In verse 13 that desire goes with his decree. Its not the same as his desire for godliness despite reprobates never repent. This verse taken in such a context as you would refute your beliefs of Gods command as well.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA I never said God was evil. I said, He created it. Thats what Isaiah 45 says. Or should I say, that Genesis 8:21 says, for the imagination of mans heart is calamity from his youth? That is your theology my friend.
Now, you are saying, that God DOESNT do all that He desires! Ha! You have to, to make your position valid!
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 God doesnt have to do something like make a person repent against their will...God can do whatever HE desires, but it doesnt mean that every sinful human will repent even though God desires them to, but has not decreed it to pass since he has no elected them. Why do you want to be a hypercalvinist?
Also the word Rah is not always translated evil it depends on the context it has several meanings which Matt Slick showed you. You only choose to interpret one meaning to fit yourbelief
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA "God can do whatever HE desires, but it doesnt mean that every sinful human will repent even though God desires them to...." That is an arminian/ roman catholic doctrine. You really should stop calling yourself reformed. The word Ra is used and translated at least 50 times in the OT, and it refers to a variety of ugly sins. Maybe look at Gen. 6:5 as well. And God saw saw that the wickedness(Ra) of man was great in the earth.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 If you want to be sily and force an interpretation on Rah then that is your problem. but you are wrong. And if you want God to be the author of a veriaty of ugly sins that makes God evil. yet you try to deny it. It makes no sense.
My theology stands with john calvin and the reformers. You label anything less than your extreme hypercalvinism as arminianism to your own folly. You only create strawman arguments.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA Ha, again, you havent proven with scripture your view. But the verses I have posted, stand on their own. Yet you wanna come with Matt. 23:37? That is a favorite Arminian verse. You know it is. Its note even about Jesus desiring to gather Israel, its about the Pharisees trying to keep God from saving His elect.
What about Isaiah 46:10-11? It says, HE will DO all His GOOD Pleasure!! But you dont agree with scripture.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 you ar flat out wrong!!!! You are blind to what is obvious and want to force a faulty interpretation of scripture and ignore the mounds of verses that would contradict your view and keep saying Job 23! Job 23! You make no sense. I do agree with Is. but I dont agree with your interpretation of understanding of it. According to you John Calvin was an arminian. Seriously you are rediculus. You only want to hate everyone and assume you are some special elect person.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA Yeah, I think we are done here dude. Your arminian claws are coming out. I think you should go read a few theology books by some good authors. I have used plenty of verses, but you deny them As a matter of fact, you havent refuted any of the ones I have used to show your illogical view. ALL THAT HE DESIRES, THAT HE DOES!!! Oh, but that doesnt mean for anyone but Job,. huh? LOL.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 no, you are just an arrogant fool. typical of what proverbs talks against. Yeah we are done. you thnk john calvin is arminian you are a joke. I read a lot of books from many great authors like CH Spurgeon, John calvin, Martin Luther, John Piper, john macArthur. Also, BB warfield, Johnothan Edwards and more they all do not agree with what you believe. You are BEYOND calvinism and a heretic. Your hyper-calvinistic venom is stinking up the comments section. im out.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA Thats typical, of people like you, who dont like what the bible has to say. You somehow think its all about you or something. I have never called you a heretic. That was uncalled for. I agree with alot of what the men you named say. I just dont agree with them on "common grace", which I dont see in scripture. Grace is only given to the elect. You just dont want to see my side. I have provided info to read, (which you refused). What does that say about you?
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66
/// ALL THAT HE DESIRES, THAT HE DOES!!! ////
All that He DECRETIVELY desire, that He does!
The words "OH THAT..." show a desire do they not???
If not, prove it.
doctorh2005 7 months ago
@doctorh2005 Hmmm... I do not see the word "Decretively" in that text!!!! Can you show it to me?
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66
/// Hmmm... I do not see the word "Decretively" in that text!!!! Can you show it to me? ///
Thats old!
(1) What's known as the "CONTEXT" of Scripture points that distinction out.
and
(2) The word "incarnation" or "Bible" or "Trinity" doesnt appear in the text of Scripture either, and yet they are Scriptural terms - as are "DECRETIVE" and "BENEVOLENT"
doctorh2005 7 months ago
@doctorh2005 You still have not shown, anywhere in scripture, where God is showing grace, benevolence, or love to the reprobate. You cant do it, because its not there. Instead, you add words to texts like Job 23, and 2Peter 3:9. Nevermind, that verse is talking about the elect, not all unregenerate mankind.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66
/// What about Isaiah 46:10-11? It says, HE will DO all His GOOD Pleasure!! But you dont agree with scripture. ///
I answered that verse in this very VIDEO.
Its referring not to His BENEVOLENT will, but His DECRETIVE will/pleasure.
doctorh2005 7 months ago
@doctorh2005 Ohh.,.. "His Decretive will/pleasure" huh? Thats not in the text my friend. You have added to it!! Nice try.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@doctorh2005 Yeah I pointed this out that your video proves him wrong and he ignored it. He wont respond to your video but like a retarded parrot just keeps slurring the same nonsense over and over even when you answer it properly.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA Hmmm. I was just looking through Calvins Institutes, and found a "nugget"!
"Every promise which God makes is evidence of his good will. This is invariably true, and is not inconsistent with the fact, that the large benefits which the divine liberality is constantly bestowing on the wicked are preparing them for heavier judgment."
Wow, does this sound like grace? I guess Calvin was a heretic too?
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66
/// "the divine liberality is constantly bestowing on the wicked are preparing them for heavier judgment." ///
That is viewed from the OUTSET - from human perspective. But, apart from God saying "Do I have ANY pleasure in the death of a wicked Person?"... Paul says... "God's kindness is meant to lead to repentance".
Likewise, God's gifts of common grace and the blessings (which proceed from His attribute of 'Lovingkindness') are expressions of His kindness IN SPITE of sin/guilt
doctorh2005 7 months ago
@doctorh2005 "Paul says...Gods kindness is meant to lead to repentance". This is referring to the elect!! Do the reprobate repent? Gimme a break. Gods kindness is to His people, the elect. Those who are not His people, are storing up wrath for the day of wrath!!!!
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66
/// Paul says...Gods kindness is meant to lead to repentance". This is referring to the elect!! ///
SAYS WHO???
Sorry, but I don't see "the elect" mentioned in that passage...
Paul is therefore obviously making a general statement about God's kindness - to all without exception.
/// Those who are not His people, are storing up wrath for the day of wrath!!!! ///
You're commiting the "APPLES AND ORANGES" Fallacy - this is unrelated to the Free Offer.
doctorh2005 7 months ago
@Haukman66 Duet. 5:29, 32:29
Ps. 81:13
Is. 48:18, 45:22
Matt. 23:37
Luke 13:34
Ezek. 18:23, 18:32. 33:11
Acts 17:27, 17:30
All of these verse show God expressing a desire that does not come about because he has not decreed it. Your hypercalvinistic beliefs do not work with these verses so you choose to ignore them.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA You are kidding me right? This is what you have? Deut. 5:29- Oh that they had such a mind as this? That is not showing God desiring something. Sorry. 32:29? "If they were wise, they would understand this; they would discern their latter end." What?! I am amazed.
I guess you dont know, the word used for "Oh That" in Hebrew, is Loo, Loo, Loo, which means, "If". So properly translated it says, IF my people.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 That would still mean the same thing. If or Oh that. It doesnt matter. It still is expressing a desire that they would turn from sins. When you say "if" it sounds like you are implying that "if they turn away from sins they can got o heaven" but then God hasnt elected them. So it makes no sense according to your view but you try to pretend it does. All of those verses are expressing a DESIRE or want of something. Why are you a hypercalvinist?
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
Comment removed
Haukman66 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA
Bro, John Murray answered the idea of "IF" that Hauky mentioned. He didnt mention that to you did he now? Lol.
doctorh2005 7 months ago
@doctorh2005 Ya doesnt mention a lot of things on purpose because it would prove his worldview wrong. He loves it too much to believe in truth.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA Calvin goes on in the same section, and says this:" Now, without controversy, God loves no man out of Christ." (Book 3 Chapter 2 Section 32.)
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66
/// Calvin goes on in the same section, and says this:" Now, without controversy, God loves no man out of Christ." ///
Since Calvin's day, theology has deepened considerably - with the distinction between God's "SALVIFIC" or "saving" love (bestowed upon the elect only).... and God's "BENEVOLENT" lovingkindness experienced by all without exception.
Common Grace is Biblical - as MATTHEW 5 shows. I will debate that one aswell.
doctorh2005 7 months ago
@doctorh2005 Matt. 5 never says God loves the evil. Just because He sends rain, and sun on them, doesnt show love. It is actually storing up more wrath for them, as Calvin clearly stated.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66
/// Matt. 5 never says God loves the evil. Just because He sends rain, and sun on them, doesnt show love ///
Actually, the Lord Jesus said "Love your enemies....". Why? for God HIMSELF likewise loves all of HIS enemies, and expresses His lovingkindness towards them in the sun, rain, food, air, etc. The Lord implied that the sun, moon etc are explicitly intended to be expressions of His lovingkindness.
God's commandments are a MIRROR IMAGE of who He is.
doctorh2005 7 months ago
@Haukman66
/// You still have not shown, anywhere in scripture, where God is showing grace, benevolence, or love to the reprobate ///
MATTHEW 5:44-48 and LUKE 6:27-26 show us how God bestows lovingkindness towards all of HIS enemies without exception.
God's commands are a mirror image of who HE is, and are based on His attributes.
The words, "so that you may be sons of your Father", implies we are to imitate Him.
Also theres ACTS 14:17, which stems from MATTHEW 44-48.
doctorh2005 7 months ago
@Haukman66
/// You are kidding me right? This is what you have? Deut. 5:29- Oh that they had such a mind as this? That is not showing God desiring something. ///
Are you trying to say that the words "OH THAT" do not show an explicit "desire"?????
LOL
doctorh2005 7 months ago
@doctorh2005 Thats exactly what I am saying. LOL. What does it mean in Hebrew?
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66
/// What does it mean in Hebrew? ///
Take a look at the following where it is used:
"OH THAT Ishmael might live before thee!" [GEN.17:18]
"OH THAT my grief were throughly weighed" [JOB 6:2]
"OH THAT My people had hearkened unto Me, and Israel had walked in My ways!" [PS.81:13]
"OH THAT Thou wouldest rend the heavens" [ISA.64:1]
Clearly an INTERJECTION - for "IF ONLY!" or "WOULD THAT!" or "OH THAT!"
Besides, look at MATT.23:37 and EZEK.33:11 - they give clear context.
doctorh2005 7 months ago
@doctorh2005 You using Matt. 23:37 is clearly bringing out your arminian roots. You do realize, Jesus saying, "but you were not willing", does not imply, He is not able to gather the children of Israel. It is just stressing the point, that the Pharisees, were trying to stand in the way of the elect coming to Christ.
As for Ezek. 33:11, you gonna add the word "desire" into the text? Cuz thats what you need to do, to make your point. You cant get your ideas from just plain scripture.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66
/// You do realize, Jesus saying, "but you were not willing", does not imply, He is not able to gather the children of Israel ///
STRAW MAN. I mentioned nothing about the Lord's "ability".
The passage clearly shows the Lord expressing a DESIRE for something.... which didnt come to pass.
Correct?
The words "How often I WANTED" imply a desire, do they not?
doctorh2005 7 months ago
@Haukman66
/// I guess you dont know, the word used for "Oh That" in Hebrew, is Loo, Loo, Loo, which means, "If". So properly translated it says, IF my people ///
John Murray clearly refuted that idea! (if you bothered to read the document).
doctorh2005 7 months ago
@Haukman66 Christ dwells within us not for the purpose of sinking our being into His being, nor of substituting Himself for us as the agent in our activities; much less of seizing our wills and operating them for us in contradiction to our own immanent mind; but to operate directly upon us, to make us good, that our works, freely done by us, may under His continual leading, be good also.
B.B. Warfield
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@Haukman66 Your God seems to have no true love or even desire genuine worship of Himself as it is forced or completely controlled. John calvin did not teach anything like this you speak of.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA "Your God seems to have no true love or even desire genuine worship of Himself as it is forced or completely controlled."
I am starting to see your arminian tendencies coming out. This is why common grace is a myth. It leads back to arminianism. Your comments are very telling. If you are a calvinist, you should know, Gods grace is irrisistable to the elect.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 I know about irrisistible grace. I am in no way arminian. You are just going in the most extreme opposite direction from arniniamism and creating some of the same mistakes.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA No, I am taking what scripture says, at face value. You still have not answered Is. 45, and the word Rah! It is the same word used in Gen. 8. And God says in Is. 45 He creates it. So was He just fibbing, or are you eisegeting the text?
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 Where is Gen 8 does it say Rah? Also my bible does not say God created wicked but disaster. Are you saying all the english translations are heretical then and have messed up?
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA Do you have esword? I am talking about the greek word. You do realize, that the bible was not written in english? Gen 8:21- for the intention of mans heart is evil(Rah) from his youth. The KJV says, in Isaiah 45:7-I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil(Rah): I the LORD do all these things. Were they wrong?
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 I dont know about this so I cant answer you. but I dont believe that God created evil and i think the word Rah must have other meanings as well and not only sinful things.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA So you believe something came about outside of God, and it took Him by surprise. Admit it.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA The Lord has made EVERYTHING for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.-Proverbs 16:4. Notice, that says everything!! Even the wicked!!
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 the Hebrew word for evil, "rah," is used in many different ways in the Bible. In the KJV Bible it occurs 663 times. 431 times it is translated as "evil." The other 232 times it is translated as "wicked," "bad," "hurt," "harm," "ill," "sorrow," "mischief," "displeased," "adversity," "affliction," "trouble," "calamity," "grievous," "misery," and "trouble."
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA Is "hurt" evil? Is "harm" evil? Is "ill" evil? Is "sorrow" evil? Is "mischief" evil? LOL. You just proved my point. And the fact you got your info from Slick is very telling.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 So prove Matt Slick wrong. Is it true Rah cannot at all be translated as such? Those are not always evil events or things.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA What is the context of the verse my friend? Context will dictate what it means. But all the words you provided, are sin!! LOL.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 So we can see that the word does not require that it be translated as "evil." This is why different Bibles translate this verse differently. It is translated as "calamity" by the NASB and NKJV; "disaster" by the NIV; and "woe" by the RSV. carm dot org told me that refute it.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA LOL, is "calamity" evil? Or is it good? Is "disaster" evil? Or is that good?
Haukman66 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA I would be willing to discuss this with you on Skype, if you are up for it. If not, I understand.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 Sorry not interested. I prefere on youtube comments. I dont know you.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA Yeah, you dont know me, but Skype is a way to talk, without all this typing. Its not like we have to give out personal information to each other. But thats cool. No biggie. But as I said, you need to read that article without your presuppositions obscuring your thinking. As I said, I used to buy into your position.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66
/// How could God be "sincerely hoping people will repent", ///
That is a STRAW MAN.
The Free Offer of the Gospel NOWHERE states that God "hopes" people will comply.
You are in error and deceit. Deceit = LIES
doctorh2005 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA I suggest you read an article on Vincent Cheungs website, title The Myth of Common Grace. Look it up on google, and read it. Then let me know what you think. And then, maybe you could answer my question I asked earlier. ;)
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 I dont undestand what you mean by "maybe you could answer my qiestion i asked earlier." I already did answer everything you asked.
Common grace is not a myth. It is a fact. Do you seriously believe God creates reprobates for the entire purpose of hating them? As in He puts sin in them on purpose in order to hate them. Is God the author of sin? Is God benevolent?
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA You have not read the article I pointed you to. You must not care about truth. I pointed you to Romans 9. What was Gods whole purpose in raising Pharaoh up? Yes, God creates reprobates. Who do you think creates them? Is God the author of sin? That is a loaded question. Depends on how you look at it. What does Isaiah 45:7 say? Better yet, go and read Proverbs 16:4. Then tell me, what God has made for its purpose.
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 I briefly looked at the article. Vincent Chueng straight up says God is the author of sin. Do you agree? You say you dont know how to answer it (loaded question).
I know about Romans 9 but I dont see it as God authoring sin or creating it inside Pharaoh. You will have to be specific as to what exactly about Romans 9 you are trying to explain.
Is 45:7 says God creates light and darkness success disaster etc. That doesnt mean sin or coercion. Prov 16:4 does not mean God madewickedsin
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA What do you think Is 45:7 means? It says He creates evil. The Hebrew word, is Rah, which means exactly that! Maybe you should go read Gen. 8:21. The word for Evil in mans heart, is the same exact word used in Isaiah 45. Prov. 16 says HE makes all things for HIS purposes, even the wicked!!! Why cant you accept Gods word?
Haukman66 7 months ago
@Haukman66 No, God did not create sin. God is holy and He would not create that which is contrary to His nature. Sinfulness is the opposite of holiness. It is lawlessness (1 John 3:4). God is the author of the Law which is a reflection of His holy character (Exodus 20). Therefore, God cannot create that which is in direct violation of the Law any more than a person can wish himself to be bigger than the sun. It just isn’t possible.
MaharlikaAWA 7 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA So you are saying, something came about, outside of God? Is that your position? God had no say in the matter? I wonder how that serpent ended up in the garden? I wonder why God told Adam to not eat the fruit, when He already knew he would? How did that tree get in the garden? Hmmm.....
Haukman66 7 months ago