Hitchens Vs Tharoor - Freedoms of Speech - Part 7/9

[b4rf3r]

the lady in the middle is obsessed with the microphones

[Nusrat5791]

if i were a hot female, i would be banging hitchens 24/7.

[kixmet]

Does the freedom of speech include the right to call gay people fags and perverts?

[detahdomo]

@kixmet yes

[Iamtopcoach]

@kixmet yes, it should,

but, we should all approach our conversations with good manners.

Because good manners are a statement about us, not the other person.

[daarkmatter]

That random Indian guy nailed the winning arguments in a few crisp sentences.

[arterioes]

I think the indian who asked a question towards the end of this video summed up and provided the best point towards the whole debate, much better than either speakers.

[iowntwocats]

Oh no, these people are very dumb.

[iowntwocats]

oh yes she is drunk.

[zencat999]

There is no middleground on this subject. Give an inch of free speach to religion and religion will take not only the arm, but all of you. See the enemy for what he is

[AxeHomeless]

Just wanted to brag once: hitchens quoted Rosa Luxemburg in the same way I do and did. It feels like approval from the highest ranks. THANKS CHRIS :D

[slovakmath]

i hope that woman gets gang raped and tortured on her way home, she needs a little excitement in her life...and what is the deal with all these pussies screaming that they are "offended"? Im agnostic too but I wouldnt hesitate for a second to murder any human or police who wants to take my rights from me, even if my life wasnt directly threatened. stop crying about being offended and DO something about it. that WAS the whole point of these revolutions that created our republics

[tuliobell]

sad to see tharoor being run down so badly........

[preemptivestrike20]

@TheAwokenMind LOL, you are Galloway's impersonator. What a loser.

[MrTonyInchpractice]

people accuse me of being aggressive... *shakes head* and i'm not aggressive... *snarls* ...

they took the microphone away before she'd managed to give her order for regular fries and two large cokes.

[sol3a1]

@TheAwokenMind - As you hurt my feelings, shouldn't I take you up before the same group Tharoor and others who think like him are making so everyone's feelings aren't hurt?

"Never wrestle a chimney sweep, because you'll never come out clean" - yeah and when I think about those who complain while they're held to their own standards ->

"Never get into a pissing match with a prick"

[sol3a1]

@TheAwokenMind - Wow, for someone who lamented how the audience was against Tharoor and then said "Tharoor is more intelligent than Hitchens and it was cruely surpressed"

Yet wasn't it Tharoor that was droning on about "not hurting others feelings?" so he was suppressed and didn't go out as to not antagonize those listening to him

Isn't that what he said everyone must do? If so, how can you lament squat while he's doing what he preaches

"you spoke complete idiocy" ah, you hurt my feelings!

[sol3a1]

@TheAwokenMind - In other words you got caught in your own trap by your own trap and don't like it? You've offended me now go apologize and realize that my upbringing "may not be as diverse as yours" and that you should make amends for being "superior" somehow

[sol3a1]

@TheAwokenMind "Tharoor is more intelligent than Hitchens and it was cruely surpressed" but then again he was "curbing himself" then wasn't he?

As he is the one saying "moderate your voice", he can't complain and those who support his views can't complain either, that is what he can do

Don't like doing it for that group? Then why should anyone want to do it for any group

There's another saying "Those who trade freedoms for security deserve neither"

[bhriguaneja]

I think that Indian guy made much sense to an Indian such as me, living in India. It is easy to live the way Christopher lives in the US but it is totally a different ball game in countries not as privileged. Christopher left his country because of a certain law he didn't like and that works seamlessly with him and his lifestyle. Not all have that flexibility.

[Experiment47]

Not only is freedom of speech a human right, it is THE most important right because it is the root of all other rights, and must be defended to the death from those fascists and theocrats who would oppress it.

[miyamoopen]

goooood lord ask your quesion. we don't want your damn life story.

[soham087]

DavidPirtle: In terms of taking offense, you are probably right. Most of my countrymen in India are not as civilized as, say, christopher Hitchens. The question is, how would you exert your freedom of speech in India without tearing the society apart? You pity or scorn doesn't matter.

[YourNameHere1212]

I guess tharoor thinks that throwing small pebbles at a fortification will bring it down. Censorship should be fought at every step. Under ANY circumstance, the only damage words do is that which you allow them to do. Word in themselves have no meaning. There is no compromise on our rights because compromise always leads to forfeiture.

The only thing that freedom cannot best is indifference

[jrwilson98]

When I was a child we had a saying. Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me. I would think adults need to learn this and live by it.

[GeneralGuitFiddle]

Liked the debate overall, but immature side note: because of the missing period in the description, I read "Joan Bakewell Vigorous". I sprayed beer all over my keyboard... And about the long-winded audience participation... it's better than no input at all. There are some stinkers but if the debaters are good, then it's a good jump-off point.

[yatter1]

I don´t believe in free speech, I think a nominal charge is fair.

[DavidPirtle]

That last question was so foolish, and basically amounted to the man saying that India isn't civilized enough for free speech.

[Kralhonj]

Oh great, the debate has now deteriorated into allowing lots of old farts in the audience their input of flowery home-spun wisdom thinly veiled as questions...zzz

Hitchens is on the ropes now....

I'm an aetheist, but if there, I would have played advocatus diaboli, just to make Hitchens earn his money. They all just want to kiss his scholarly arse. This isn't a healthy debate it's a grovelling contest.

Muslims are like policemen (no pun intended;-), never around when you need them!

[bademoxy]

1200s ad-was st thomas making an error proclaiming science and reasoning complimentary to his faith? -allowing a reformation, europe goes from wagons(from behind the islamic advances))to spacecraft in 3oo yrs. thinkers like hitchens are freed to point out flaws in the new testament, the abominations of the torah and war crimes in the hadiths. so christianity shot itself in the foot, but helped western cultural to survive jihadis take its east empire.hope that leftists don't betray this respite.

[EsotericDesi]

Democratic societies need to euthanize all pricks who hate freedom of speech

[UnderTheTunk]

How very democratic that would be.

[oneki]

But you know people who agree with me are the least vocal. We are all looking for heroes instead of standing for what we believe in. Carol thatcher made a comment in private, the person with her there did not challenge her there, instead cowardly reported it in the public. The comment made in private, how was that offensive to me when i was not there . The cartoons were drawn in denmark, how was that offensive to people in Saudi arabia. Its sick and we must speak irrespectvie of race, country..

[Freshhhhh1982]

Hey oneki. As a matter of interest, would you consider Swedish a hard language to learn. Im thinking of moving there as my own country is getting on my last nerve.

[oneki]

lol!! Well sweden is nice and the language is not difficult to learn besides they speak very good english, except i love the uk more :))))) dude we can't run from the problems we need more people to voice opinions without fear. we can't keep depending on dawkins or hitchens and of course we cannot run to the extremist like the "griffins". Decent people have got to stand up for our rights to offend them "magic people".

[Freshhhhh1982]

Yeah I noticed that Swedish people tend to have a really good grasp of English on my travels. Griffin would be leaving my country in a bodybag if he ever visited. Our terrorists are leftists.

[rugbyanden]

Freshhhhh1982: If you are thinking of moving here because of our free thinking, mainly athestic, secular (sane?) way of life you should probably wait and see... Islamic "freedoms" and "rights" are growing in power... In a few years we may just as well be Europes newest theocracy... Guess we will have to wait and see. You wouldn't want to have learnt all that difficult swedish for nothing, right?;)

Best wishes/ a swede

[oneki]

to the side and whisper to you. "you are bang on point" and it irks me when they do this. They are all cowards and that's what is destroying us. You know you are grounded in more realistic ideas of the world but are cowered into pretending to accept that the path destroying us is too big to undo by just speaking out. I say these same for those who are also very quick to claim discrimination and racism even in comedy, art or drama, that sickens me. I will be prepared to speak out and do ...

[oneki]

IF more of us were as bold as hitchens and not cowardly, we would find out we are not the minority, we would find out that even in the most uneducated areas of the world there are more people who beilieve in these values of free speech than not. IT seems to me the higher your IQ and education, the more easily it is to capitulate to these illiterarte bufffons who terrorise us with brute force. I have friends in Nigeria who would not even come and say religion is bullshit, but will call you later

[aweiss]

7:45

They don't have the same opportunities BECAUSE they have societies where you can't speak as you like.

[simplyarun]

Shashi makes an amazing point here: 0:50 to 1:32.

[walkenjb]

I actually think this is the only youtube debate with Hitchens, that he actually has some difficulty proving his point definitively.  Plus its just hilarious that he's chain smoking the entire time.

[Freshhhhh1982]

All us atheists should start a church and appoint Hitchens the head. Then whenever we feel offended by religious encroachment on our live we can hold mass protests. It would happen every day though.

[circe888]

Great idea! We could declare our homes to be churches because we practice our faith of no faith every day there. We could designate a time every day to raise a toast to Hitchens with consecrated scotch. We could get tax free status & have wonderful fund raising events. Hey, if L. Ron Hubbard could pull it off, why not Hitch? Where do I sign up?

[Freshhhhh1982]

Exactly. We need to become more millitant though. I also think a church is needed. What about the local pub/bar. I used to be atheist, I think im more of an antitheist now.

[Inquisitr]

He wouldn't do it. Even if we went out in masse he'd tell us all to piss off.

Look up the argument he had with Dawkins when he proposed the bright system.

[Hirnlego999]

I don't think a "church" is needed. I think it will be enough if more people are encouraged to speak out and dare to do so.

On the internet for instance we're pretty dominant in many cases..

[Domzdream]

HA ha. If only.

However in starting a 'church' of atheism would justify theists calling atheism a faith and a religion, which it isn't one. It's a lack of belief in ALL faiths and religions.

No, I think the answer to that would be to open up atheistically supported places of education- to teach children of all these religions, icluding the Roman ones, then teach them the falacies of it all, and let them decide on their own what they want to choose..

[aweiss]

haha excellent

[aweiss]

we can make our prophets all the great thinkers of the Enlightenment and our efforts would be not at a caliphate but at worldwide secular civil society

[Freshhhhh1982]

I dont think that will ever happen unfortunately. Idiots are breeding at an alarming rate.

[aweiss]

that is true.  The western world is declining in population and the worst places in the world are growing...

[Freshhhhh1982]

Thats why education is key to eradicating poverty, overpopulation and environmental damage. Specifically education of women. Also intelligence isnt a big factor in sexual selection unfortunately. Thats why iq is falling fast. Im not optimistic.

[aweiss]

well, somewhat education. Cuba and Saudi Arabia have lots of education but its of no use because there is not free enterprise in Cuba and it is religious education in Saudi Arabia.

But frankly, Western society should be doing more to encourage high income earners to have children and pass on their genes, instead of subsidizing low income earners. policies should, I think discourage poor, who have tendencies towards lower IQs from having children. subsidize abortion, economic incentives

[Freshhhhh1982]

Cuba and S.Arabia arent exactly high on the list for world education ranking. In addition, both countries suffer from undemocratic systems. I really dont know if their is a solution. Ill tell you one thing, overpopulation is going to get really serious in this century.

[aweiss]

should food aid be cut? I dunno but this monster growing population in the rest of the world is both sad and dangerous

[Freshhhhh1982]

No, human life is the most precious thing in the universe. The problem is how to get people to stop having so many babies. Religion, poverty and lack of education are to blame.

[aweiss]

oh... u think a fetus is a person and deserves rights? Abortion has had marvelous effects for America, you should read Freakonomics

[Freshhhhh1982]

I was referring to the other five billion people who live in abject poverty. However, as medical technology advances the age at which a fetus can survive without its mother is getting lower and lower. Hence, it raises some ethical issues. Furthermore, im familiar with freakonomics but you can explain anything with statistics. Since I dont believe in god, human life is the only thing I deem as sacred.

[aweiss]

for poor not to have kids, a restructuring of welfare to discourage that. Maybe even welfare payments decrease with having children. What other measures do you like?

[Freshhhhh1982]

Education of women is the only way. Wealth doesnt necessarily mean an individual is intelligent. I knew a millionaire who couldnt write his own name.

[oneki]

Fresh and aweiss - should I be worried about the two of you. As an idea - i find it shocking you people are talking about stopping people with lower IQ from giving birth. IQ- ??? I think you should be talking about people who believe in free speech not to capitulate instead of talk about aiding abortion etc. From histopry ideas like these start with good intentions and end up being another form of dictatorship in itself. Evil people are not born, society makes them. if more of us...

[Freshhhhh1982]

Um. I never advocated aborting the fetuses of people with low IQ`s. I just said people with low IQ`s tend to have more children which isnt really beneficial to the human race. As for evil people not being born that way, some people are actually born psychopaths. Scans of their brainwaves show remarkable differences from the rest of the population.

[oneki]

Thanks to science we know that they are not necessarily evil, they just have a brain malfunction. thanks to science we know not to just leave them to their fate but to study better ways of diagnosing early and treating them. Just imagine if we leave the worlds to the magic people believers, what the world will look like :)) I am telling you i know. Visit the outskirts of my country where the beileve children are witches

[amairaja]

Tharoor's explanation is really true. I think when religious guys question the rationality of Hitchen's belief or unbelief they should do that with due respect, and not as if it is an insult, and I also expect the same from Hitchens and his friends.

Tharoor's point is excellent. Islam is not always violent to anyone who critiques it.

[TaurusCanser]

Tharoor's explanation is wrong. Questioning does not cause the firebombing of homes, murders, or any other terrorist activity; TERRORISTS do these acts. Look at who is now getting that go-ahead to commit these atrocities. Its not the person whose common sense and logic is offended, it's the one holding illogically unstable sensibilities. What if laws were designed to keep cults of terrorist child molesters from hearing that what they believe in is wrong? Would you support this?

[jacobins3000]

Most religious people do not respect atheists like Hitchens or their arguments, and I dont expect them too. There are many people who I meet every day, who for some reason or another don't feel the need to respect me or my ideas. I dont go around bitching about it, or threatening them with violence. Such people exist, if you need their respect then earn it, if you don't need their respect then ignore them.

[yreuq0]

that dumb bitch bakewell barely lets them answer questions and keeps moving on to the next questioner...just shut up and relax and let them answer this isn't a race.

[Jabo007Celt]

Please have your SHORT questions ready people. I hate when people in the audience ramble on and on. Get to the fuckin point!

[directedchaos]

Why didn't they talk about inciting violence and lying? Maybe Hitchins wouldn't be so fundamentalist there... fraud is bad m'kay.

[happyinnanaimo]

Finally, Tharoor gets a chance to explain his point, and it all makes perfect sense.

[omgwtfwhoami]

You mean what he says at 0:45 that essentially suggests limiting expression based upon a hypothetical reaction from bullies? You can be a push-over all you want, I'm glad I have the First Amendment. I'm not afraid of intolerant bullies who become violent if I say things that they may interpret as insulting. Where does it end?

[buntpan]

ahh i love when people stand up during Q&A time and share their personal opinions that NOBODY CARES ABOUT.

i didnt realize this was Hitchens vs Tharoor vs Some random idiot in the audience.

[happyinnanaimo]

I agree....the only worthy question was the last one.

[littlegrad]

The guy who asks the question at 5.17--is that the dude from the guardian science podcast?

[jonnykzj]

i agree with most of wht Hitchens says. Regarding slander though id say tht it depends whether it is moral slander, e.g. adultery, lying, laziness or slandering by accusing someone of a LEGALLY ACCEPTED CRIME, e.g. murder, robbery, rape etc, WITHOUT LEGALLY RECOGNIZED EVIDENCE, i repeat, WITHOUT legaly recognized EVIDENCE. The latter is problematic because that could result in the government to intrude into the privacy of the thus slandered person and hence be an infringement to his/her rights.

[jonnykzj]

sorry i forgot to add slander of a LIVING person. not tht ppl get the view i meant criticizing historical dead ppl of anything shld be a prob

[DreadLaw2]

I agree entirely, that you can't claim someone is a criminal, when they are not... I know Hitchens unfortuantely does not believe the same, despite our laws being too extreme, as he often calls Clinton a rapist in a form and without the collection of more convincing evidence, and I feel sometimes, that that simply isn't the expression of an opinion in the slightest

[PurushaDesa]

"Can't - four letter - hear", would be, "I can't fuck here." Here, I actually find myself in support of the right not to have to watch Christopher fuck here.

[Deepstarr7020]

Atheist play defense

Evangelicals play offense

Agnostics play mediator

How about removing yourself from this silly game we play in society, and free yourself from your title and absolutely not care ,if anything God is a spectator . God is a spectator

[PistonDriven]

Yes, I'm sure that kind of aloofness will come in handy the day you find yourself with a knife in your belly...

[Deepstarr7020]

The random schizophrenic crap you're spewing is pathetic.

[PistonDriven]

yeah? Well at least we're taking a stance.. Wtf are you about?

[jackfin]

Who gives a fuck what muslims think? Stuff em.

[dgdfhfghgfhgfgffjhj]

Religion has been protected by blasphemy laws for thousands of years. What has that done to reduce religious assaults?

[canary1492]

"Has someone a microphone?" x20

[christiansoldier3434]

It's called good old fashion English.

[truestefq]

The guy on 2:22 confuses rights with privileges.

[hellavadeal]

If speech we do not like is illegal , than there is no free speech. Get over it and move on . Forced beliefs are of no use.

[kimberlily1983]

I totally agree. We should all be able to choose how offensive we want to be. Just because I would act in such a way that would be more in line with what Tharoor says (I would try not to offend unnecessarily), does not mean I want laws in place to force me to be that way.