What's "regeneration"? I think I am on stage two @@? Going on to stage three???....... (Pray for me, Christians... I think I am "LOST"(Not saved yet. Not born again yet)....)???
@8narrowgate20117 The stages usually are: lost sinner, then a sinner condemned under the moral law, repentace, and then faith in Christ that He died on a cross for your sins, and rose again to give you newness of life. Ye must be born again, i.e. spiritually reborn. No one's conversion is exactly the same as anyone else's, because God uses your life experiences to bring you to Him.
While this is rather complicated and academic in nature, I really appreciate the different concepts presented. It will help me in future evangelism opportunities.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
@Christsavedme77 this verse its adrresed to christians only!! the preceding verse makes it plain because he is taking to the beloved and who are the beloved ? those elected from ch;1 do not take verses out of context
God has not elected certain people to be saved and some are not. This is heresy. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
False conversions don't exist giving credence to its possibility is not truth.You cannot make a person who thinks they are saved and are not, saved, because you are correcting a false application. Better preaching does make a conversion. No elect person will ever not be saved, and no person falsely believing are non elect because of a bad message especially out of order to the description above.Those who preach Calvinism need to apply it.
when a child is born it is not required of that child that he understand how he was born to be born. When a child of God is born, it is not required of that child that he know how God accomplished it in such detail as is given here. God himself even describes it as his peculiar work. What is required, or should i say, is the proof of regeneration? Faith. All those things mentioned as requirements would more accurately be called realities of Holy Spirit given faith.
@HermitintheRain Psalm 131 A Song of degrees of David. LORD, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me. Surely I have behaved and quieted myself, as a child that is weaned of his mother: my soul is even as a weaned child. Let Israel hope in the LORD from henceforth and for ever.
Christ knows how to save He is not limited by ignorance.This complication is class educated people examining more the religious who don't show enough to be saved.This knowledge is for those preaching the gospel five times a year outside Church. Ive been preaching the gospel for thirty two years.I started in hell's kitchen Harlem the Bronx the last fifteen years local university,also in Korea and Mexico I never see people who teach this stuff out there with me.Christ never lost one sheep
If you say, "I love the music there", that means the preaching stinks. If you say, "I love the preaching," that means the music stinks....If you say, "No one judges me and I can be who I want to be"...You're at a bar! ~ Tim Hawkins
@k0smon Carlton Pearson creates more problems than anything else. He's a universalist. What's the problem with that? Jesus Christ was not a universalist.
I have almost every video that CrossTv has made. I love Kielar, he's just a view you need to be alert for (not tired at the time of watching). He reiterates a lot, so it gets solidified in the noggin.
Why worry about professing Christians I mean I know we should care for their soul.But does God ever miss one of His elect.?If someone was sprinkled with truth God is not fooled.We can adorn the gospel but we need to be careful not to make it a law.This is a lot for a depraved mind to get before conversion.
@brillstreet when traditions and church fathers beliefs contradict the bible what do we do. Who do we trust more tradition, fathers, or the Bible. I choose the bible go Sola Scripute
Sola scriptura is nothing more, but it is something less. It denies it's adherents 1500 years of Sacred Tradition which existed before there even was a New Testament. It's a 16th century invention, man made and incomplete.
I think it's hard to believe in the bible - there are so many...how du I say it in english....contrasts ? you know what I mean? Like one part is particulary bright and the other totally depressive... I'm not an atheist, but I'm not a traditional christian - I think everyone needs to find his own way to heaven - at least, it was humans who wrote the bible, and humans make mistakes, don't they? They could have understood something wrong or anything and now millions set their hopes in their thought
It is true that there are many translations. The Word that God send to us in not the dead letter of each word. God's Word is alive and gives us life. The message is the same in the translations, some are weak and some are more strong. also have the strongs concordance that we can refer back to the original language meaning. Joh 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
wow! The Lord directed me to Crosstv right after He made me new :-) I never heard of John Flavel before until today. This was absolutely amazingly poetic and in alignment with the word of God!
In my own case, I can attest to this drawing process. There was no man involved in the process either, it was just me and God. I didn't know any Christians nor did I have anyone 'lead' me to Christ.
The Biggest Most Serious Mistake Most People Tragically do Today is judge and condemn anyone because they don't follow what is Popular and what the Majority believe and follow.
i don't follow man made scribe and pharisee traditions and anything that end's with ism's.
i follow Jesus and His Word.
We need to follow the Voice of the Holy Spirit not the voice of man,the world and satan.
The Children of Abraham 31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
I believe, I repented of my sins, and I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior and asked him in my Heart.
I AM FREE, I trust him, I love him, I need him, and I follow Him.
AMEN! The Bible, nothing more nothing less. Only God is the ever righteous that can judge. Not mortals. Plus I have a question bout this lenghty detailed theory on this video. what about the Thief that was crucified with Jesus, he did not know any of these indepth theories, nor had enough time to prove to you people who are looking for evidence that he is actually save. All his life he was wicked, but he at the cross he humbled himself & said to Jesus to remember him when He enters heaven????
"saved" is a process, we are in the process of salvation, no man can ask another man to truly repent, true repentance comes from the heart, its a deep conviction done by the work of the Holy Spirit that first calls us to this action, not man, its a work of God, not a system of man, God the Holy Spirit sends the right people at the right time to give the words a person is being convicted of, this is the true calling of the Christian, we are to be led by the Spirit, and speak where we are called.
Ive been a christian for years and they make it very complicating. good information but for a nonbeliever it is hard to grasp all of this. Good video, but not so good of an explanation for a nonbeliever
Dang! most seem to miss that Baptism saves. It is not put first and it is added on a to do list but Peter qoutes "the baptism that now saves you". What a shame.
I am not. All the Apostle's did tough. We would all know that if we read all the letters and got the whole picture. Paul said: Baptism was the new covenant cirumcision, also that you cloth yourself with christ, and that you die and live a new life at baptism. PETER said: Baptism was for the forgiveness of your sins and that baptism saves you. I can actually reference this if you would like. I use to think like you intill I really studied with others.
Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying "If ye are the Christ, save Yourself and us." But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong."
Some of you confuse faith with hope/belief. Faith is a knowing, not a belief, it means you understand the love of God, and know God. Love matters more than the bible, which means the bible matters not. To say I need Christ to find the MOTHER and Father of creation is a lie created by christian cultist to create a middle MAN between me and god. Christianity and the bible are male dominated and fear based creations. I challenge you in the name of love/god to remove your judgments over humankind.
Lol! This is Hersey! "12 steps to Salvation"? Of course that is only for the elect?
"false hypocritically faith"? Now how and who would determine that! 12 steps in 3-4sub parts each?! Uh huh.
So...Where is the simplicity of Christ? Who can be saved. But of course, it only for the elite Christ elect club.
Lol! Okay sinners you can just go home! You have that special elect club before you can be saved. We should listen to men instead of reading the bible and taking God at his word.
Danny, I don't mind you disagreeing with things, but I do ask that you stay away from the pejorative rhetoric and actually address the points that you wish to address. If you're unable to do so, I can assist you with that.
"pejorative rhetoric". Lol! Now that is funny. Well Lane, I do thank you for your willingness to allow others to disagree.
But salvatio is immediate for those that except the invitation for God's salvation.
2Cor 5:18-6:1-2, Romam 10:9-13, John 3:16-18. Rom 12: 1-3. Now, If this is not enough. Who can be saved? Why do need a man's teaching to put such a unneassry burden on back and blocks us from God's salvation. But, perhaps I should be softer in my approach. I know your guys are good people
@simplydannygirl ,I see that you believe that there are 12 steps to salvation,this is not what Mark is saying at all.This is just the order that Salvation follows,all a person does to be saved is believe,God has taken care of everything else.He chose them,changed them,converted them and gave every gift to the person so that HIS WILL would be accomplished.Jesus is the beginner and finisher of our salvation,man is really just a bystander in the process.
12, let me repeat 12 steps! In 3-4+ subdivisions each. This salvation process, if you can call it that, is burdensome. Who can stand? How long does it take for God to forgive a repentant sinner anyway? PS: 32"1-2. Then Psalms 15. "Who shall ascend?"
Imagine if two wanted marry and had to go through 12 in 3-4+ subdivisions requirements. They would be weary of the whole thing and walk away.
2)Now, try obtaining God's Salvation by trying to walk in these 12 steps in 3-4 subdivisions directories. It makes these steps to God's saving Grace a Prerequisite. then it would still be by works of ones own righteousness. Which is never possible. But this is not God's Prerequisite. This 12 steps in 3-4 sub divisions. It makes God too hard to come to. It is a unnecessary burden put on by a man. It's not God Burden. His yoke is easy and His burden is light.
AMEN...sola scripta nothing more nothing less. For God so loved the world that means God wants us to be saved, and not any man should perish. God's yoke is easy. That means HE does not require of us to go to bootcamp to be save. Just simply through faith. Amen!
Your missing baptism. Read the whole book of acts and you will see that everyone who turned to christ was baptized immediately because baptism with faith forgives you of your sin, baptism saves you. I use to use every verse you used to get people saved but than I read and read and understood baptism was needed for salvation.
Romans 10 "if u confess if your mouth" etc was written by paul to the church but ppl like u use it to get ppl saved. Try reading romans 6 before 10 & u will see when we died to sin. At baptism not the alter call. Again read the beginning of John 3 before going all the way to verse 16. We have to be born again by spirit and WATER! If baptism doesnt save u than what power does it have? Paul "arise & be baptzed washing away ur sin calling on his name" U want me to believe him or u?
I was hoping that it wouldnt come to this. YOU: "Baptism itself does not save you" now compare what you said to what peter is saying. Open up your bible to 1 peter 3:21 "and this water symbolizes baptism (no baptism is not a symbol) THAT NOW SAVES YOU also- (later) it SAVES YOU BY THE RESURECTION of JESUS CHRIST! Who should I believe. You are giving more power to the unbiblical "alter call" and "sinners pray" than the biblical baptism.
First of all Jonyrock I guess I should ask you if you are Catholic or Lutheran. If you are then your salvation education is going to be totally skewed to begin with. I'm going to give you the versus you quoted AS they are written and then in context. I will let scripture interperet scripture so I may have to continue this on two sections. In John 3 Jesus is talking to Nicodemus who asks Jesus in verse 4 how a man can be born again when he is old as he cannot crawl back into the womb. Cont...
Catholiism is not christianity @ nothing they do really is in the bible. Lutherns r Ok but r kind of dry. I would say I like to associate with pentocastol @ apostolic teaching. They doing everything biblical: true church government, the gifts, helaing, dream interpertation, worship @ dance, revaltion @ a sound salvation doctrine. I accept your correction but I would rather baptize than asking some1 to pray jesus into their Heart. I would know. I did for yrs before I found out that I was false.
(cont.) Then he said to Jesus "Lord remember me when You come into Your kingdom." And Jesus said to him "Assuredly I say unto you, TODAY you will be with Me in Paradise."
No mention of any rituals in this mans personal guarantee from the lips of Christ Himself, that he was indeed justified. This was by his faith alone. Not my words my friend, but they are that of Jesus our Lord.
Wow! u sound like me 6 months ago. Remember the paralytic in Mathew chp 2. Jesus Said " i have authority on Earth to forgive Sins" let me ask u. Did king daved, samuel, daniel, ppl who died during jesus go to heaven? YES why? they where under the old convenant. So was the Thief on the Cross. The new covenant didnt come to pass when Jesus died but when he rose. That is why the 1st "altar cal"l was by peter "repent be BAPTIZED for the FORGIVNESS OF YOUR SINs. Explain that! Please I am begging
Don't get me wrong my friend, I am not trying to cheapen the idea of baptism. Jesus saw it as being important enough to do, so why should I not be baptized if I believe. But I won't say that everyone who is baptized is saved, nor will I say that everyone who is NOT baptized is not saved.
Obedience to God is not a "requirement" to have a relationship with Him, rather it is the "result" of said relationship. Thats all I'm saying...didn't mean to offend you at all.
It is not that. I get angry that pple say "repeat this prayer after me and u will be saved, Dear Jesus.." and they dont follow that with baptism. Than they have baptism services 6 months after the person recieved christ. And they say baptism is a symbol & it doesnt save which in my mind they are saying that a sincere prayer that is unbiblical has more power than baptism that is biblical. Baptism is not a work just like repentance and obedience isnt. They are the essentials to be really saved.
Your right. I am saying the only exception to being saved without water baptism is the baptism that John the baptist talked about it and that cornelius recieved before baptism and that is fine but much of the main stream church has used that as an accuse to even take out baptism of the Holy spirit and substifuting that with saying the sinner's pray "just pray Jesus into your heart" so people not being baptized with water or fire. That is what I was trying to say.
I believe in the Bible nothing more nothing less...if this is so true, then why did Jesus said to the thief on the cross that this day he will join Christ in Paradise?? All his life the thief was wicked until that day on the cross...he was not even baptized nor had the chance to do good to humanity...he simply put FAITH to Jesus on his last remaining hours on earth...and through faith...the Bible said Jesus saved him. its a perfect biblical example on salvation through faith.
Here is ur answer. Accept it. In the gospels jesus went around telling ppl that there sins were forgiven & they were saved. Jesus physically walked & ppl witnessed him justifying others. The theif in this case was justified during the old covenant, remember it is the resurrection that brought the world into the new covenant. Peter was to usher in the church which happened in Acts. HE didnt say "Pray jesus in ur heart" but rather "REPENT be BAPTIZED and THEN U wILL RECIEVE THE HOLY SPIRIT.
The moment one receives the atoning sacrifice of Christ as His redeemer, His faith makes him Holy, because Christ';s righteousness is imputed to him. It is by faitnot of works, least we have something to boast of. But let us continue in THAT faith in Christ, which continues to sanctify/cleanse us making us worthy of God. Muslims believe they can earn salvation by many words/prayers. Now God owes them?
I've always wondered that myself. The angel tells Daniel, go your way and rest until the time of the end. And the thief was told by Jesus, today you will be with Me in paradise. I'm confused.
Jesus understands his confusion in verse 5 and clarifies to Nicodemus that you are first born of the flesh (water in the womb) and THEN of the spirit. It is not speaking of Baptism here and I can qualify this by the fact that when Jesus was explaining salvation to Nicodemus he first mentioned being born of water and then mentioned born of the spirit. Clearly this is not in the right order if baptism is required for salvation. Baptism is a not required but an act of public obedience.
No wonder there is a massive confusion among christianity today. You don't even have to ask, but just look around & you'll be amazed by the numbers. The Holy Scriptures which are compiled into the Holy Bible, are all about one Church & that is The Church of the Lamb of God or even The Church of Jesus Christ. All will be given Salvation, but its our Exaltation matters.
Thank you for your words, which encourage me to press on toward the mark of Jesus Christ! Because of course, what you preach must be true! Especially when your goal is only to knock down others...and I'd rather be the lowest of Christ slaves than whatever you might be yoked to right now...
Wow, this in and of itself is a self refuting statement. Simply because you disagree you revert to playground like name calling?
The question really is "can it be demonstrated that we are indeed born sinners? Well do we have to teach our children to lie? Or be selfish, and self centered? Or to be brutal to other children? NO! They come this way! In fact we have to teach them to NOT do these things. WHY? Because we are BORN SINNERS! Whether you agree or not.
Beyond Catholicism there are about 10,000 Christian denominations. Us, as individual Christians, are not going to agree with ANYONE 100% of the time.
I agree with Mark Kieler about 97% of the time and honestly feel he is a blessed man of God! My prayers are with all my brothers and sisters that we find the truth.
Thanks again to LaneCh for posting all the great videos! -Peace-
Gee, imagine if one is not a seminary student. They would not understand made up terms like "Decisional Regeneration" They would think God hasd this elite club where only the elect could resaved.
This teaching makes to hard for most people to understans the call for salvation.
Why not jst preach the Romans road? Roman 10:9-13 and john 3:16-18. 1cor 5:18-6:2
Kielar is wrong. No where in the bible does it say anything about 12 steps to salvation. Where is the simplicity of the Gospel?
You can never be sure if someone is saved, only guess based on what you see. And even then you cant really know if someone is saved or not. Only God knows this, and he should be the only one. We must be careful before dealing out judgement when we ourselves all have things we are dealing with and sins we are struggling with. Being saved means coming to a point where you realize you cant live on your own but that you need God to take control of your life. Works have nothing to do with it, but are
You have to Here, believe, repent, and confess. "Who so ever shall call on the name of the Lord will be saved." How many people are theological students anyway? What a silly man made burden you have put on Men. You have now made difficult the simplicity of the Gospel. John 3:16-18. Your Idea of God's salvation is harder to pass then a Law exam. Then there is no love. By your standards, who can be saved?
In reading your post, I am curious, do you believe that people don't have to repent to be saved? Repent and confess is the same thing, and don't you believe, that we do have to believe in Jesus. I mean, what if you don't believe that He is God in the flesh. Would you still say that a person is saved? The devils believe, but they are not saved. Just asking in love, not any harshness... :)
You have to Here, believe, repent, and confess." Is what I said CLEARLY.
I repeat the Romans road. Rom 10:9-13. Then John 3:16-8. Clearly. You have to beleive what is clearly written in the/these scriptures to be saved. Jesus God made Flesh is the way the true and the Life. No other name under Heaven can we be saved.
Did you know not believing that Jesus came it the flesh is like a Muslim or a Jehovah's Witness or something. 1john4:3 say it is the Spirit of Anti Christ.
So we must beieve that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. It sis denial of his Good head and Resuurection.
I think that regeneration, conversion, and inward drawing are all really just different terms for the same general thing. We could say that when someone is inwardly drawn, they are thereby regenerated or converted, but this is all closely related. I like the way Piper explains the new birth. I don't like it when people say we must be born again before we have faith, because faith precedes being born again. But, God grants repentance and faith, which I think is what we are trying to emphasize.
I believe the Bible teaches the opposite. Regeneration precedes faith. See 1 John 5:1, John 1:13, Eph 2
Here's an analogy. Just as breath is the first thing that happens when a baby is born (physical life), likewise, faith is the "first gasp for air" when someone is given spiritual life (being born again)
Faith is the natural result of being made spiritually alive by God's grace, not the cause of it.
LOL! I saw the link, and the provocative title drew me in. I actually spend most of my time watching "Flight of the Conchord" clips, and anything with cute kittens in it. :)
When God saved me, I tried to get away by sinning. I said to myself, "this can't be happening, I must be over emotional, etc." Finally I surrendered. It's not a decision. I've never been the same since. I couldn't get enough of Him and I was convicted of my sins. It's truly supernatural on how God saves a person. Thank you for these truths, and I so hope that false converts will hear and come to true salvation. God Bless!
All the unbelievers I've shared the law with don't desire to keep it and do good. They mock and abhor me for even bringing it up, but apparently his unbeliever has a desire to keep it (per "He makes statements that the typical unbeliever would never make.".) Very interesting.
Can someone please clarify for me I seem to be bit confused on this. Is this video saying that God has an Elect group of people? If so why does scripture say that christ died for the whole world and not just the elect? Also is this video saying that the reason that the elect are drawn to the outward call is because of the holy spirit in them or is the holy spirit doing the drawing as scripture says?
1)Yes God has his elect. The Word "World" is used in different ways. In John 3:16 it is referring to certain people. The word "World" is used the same way in other places:
Luke 2:1
And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that ALL THE WORLD should be taxed.
2)Its the Holy Spirit in them (inward call) that makes them born again, and they now DESIRE to believe. Without the inward call, they WILL NOT believe nor care of the outward call.
That is referring to the Charismatic gifts given to the believers of infant church in the Apostolic age. These were for the establishment of the church before the New Testament was completed:
Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance
@Gospelboy190 tis confusing isn't it? hmmmmmm... how are we to receive the Kingdom again... right "like a child." Children could never understand this 12 step process of Salvation laid out here... it's ridiculous. So according to this "How can they be saved?"
Not rightly. They bring in many extrabiblical things like that notion of "free-will". Yet if you ask them to give you one indicative statement about free-will from the Bible, all they give you is no answer or imperative statements. The Bible simply doesn't teach it, yet we're the ones who are accused of trying to "rationalize Scripture and bring it into our bias." :)
Funny,,, that it is Jesus who calls us to REPENTANCE- God does not offer to repent for us.
On our own we do not have the power to repent, BUT WITH THE WORD- God gives us his grace so that we can repent. We can repent because it is God who gives us the power to do so- but he does not do it for us.
Just because the words "free-will" are not in the Bible does not mean the agency does not exist. That's like saying no one in the Bible ever "used the bathroom" because the words just aren't there. It's unreasonable and illogical to interpret in such a manner.
Paul said in Philippians 1:21-23. "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I CHOOSE? I do not know!" Ahhhh..... that's not FREE WILL?
We believe that, too. We just differ on the reason that one "walks through the door." Calvinists hold that it's because of God's grace. Non-Reformed (Arminians, Pelagians, etc.) believe that it's because in some way they are better than someone else whether that be smarter, more spiritually sensitive, able to follow argumentation, use coupons at the supermarket, wear Nike shoes... whatever... you can fill in why.
Apostates in the sense that they made a profession of faith and fell away. This doesn't mean that they were true Christians. When Jesus comes back and He says to people, "Depart from me, I never knew you." do you hold that the Bible messed up and He's going to say "Depart from me, I once knew you but because of your apostacy, I've become forgetful." No, He's says, "never knew".
If you follow the order given in John 6:44, first comes the drawing of the man, then comes the raising up (salvifically) of that same man. I'm happy to say that there's literally no (sound) way around this.
NO, I do not believe that "people are going to hell," or even that God sends them there. I believe that we are ALL BORN IN ORIGINAL SIN- that we are by nature sinful and corrupt- dead in our sins and trespasses, and ALREADY part of Satans kingdom when we are born.
But the good news is: That God so loved THE WORLD (since you ask what "all" means) *THE COSMOS* check your Koine- he gave his only Begotten Son, so that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES will not perish, but have eternal life.
"NO, I do not believe that "people are going to hell," or even that God sends them there. I believe that we are ALL BORN IN ORIGINAL SIN- that we are by nature sinful and corrupt- dead in our sins and trespasses, and ALREADY part of Satans kingdom when we are born."
So do you believe that we're in hell now? I think I saw a movie or heard a rap song that had that "theology" the other day, too.
The Bible says a man is dead in his sin (Eph 2:1 and made quickened (made alive) with Christ (Eph 2:5). We have a sovereign and omnipotent Lord. Praise God!
Jesus says that those who are drawn are those who are raised up at the last day. Is everyone raised up at the last day (meaning salvation)? Well, the Bible is pretty clear that there are people going to hell so the answer is no.
You are playing with words for the sake of defending your Calvinistic bias!
THAT is exactly the problem with our "Reformed" brothers- they take the Word of God and "rationalize it" in order to conform to their agenda.
Christ did not say that he would draw ONLY THOSE WOULD BE RAISED IN THE LAST DAY- (by the way, unbelievers will be raised too- Daniel 12). I wonder what rationalization you would give to John 12: 32 where Jesus says that if lifted up, he would draw ALL MEN unto himself?
Did I say that only believers would be raised in the sense you're talking about? No. I made it perfectly clear in that comment that the context means for it to be a salvific sense.
"You are playing with words for the sake of defending your Calvinistic bias!
THAT is exactly the problem with our "Reformed" brothers- they take the Word of God and "rationalize it"...
Also, if you don't quit with the pejorative rhetoric, you will be blocked. I have little time to babysit such inane gibberish.
"I wonder what rationalization you would give to John 12: 32 where Jesus says that if lifted up, he would draw ALL MEN unto himself?"
If you want to smuggle John 12:32 into John 6:44 you end up with universalism since all that are drawn to the Son as per John 6:44 are raised to eternal life.
John 12:32 has ANOTHER context than John 6:44 as the GREEKS (vs. 20) are coming to speak to Jesus. Hence he says that through his sacrifice on the cross people from all nations will come unto him.
NEGATIVE- you are over-extending the meaning of the passages. On passage need not overlap the other. "The context" (as you say) is actually dealing with Hellenistic Jews- not Gentiles.
But that is beside the point. You are interpreting "draw" with "saved." This is where the problem lies.
When Christ says that he will DRAW ALL MEN to himself, he does not mean something else. Jesus means what he says.
You Zwinglians always have trouble believing the plain words of Christ!
""The context" (as you say) is actually dealing with Hellenistic Jews- not Gentiles."
Lets EXAMINE that. Thayer Definition:
1) a Greek either by nationality, whether a native of the main land or of the Greek islands or colonies
2) in a wider sense the name embraces all nations not Jews that made the language, customs, and learning of the Greeks their own; the primary reference is to a difference of religion and worship
Anthropos is NOT in the text and ALL is qualified by the context.
Actually I am looking at John 6:44 where all those drawn by the Father to the Son are raised up (resurrection unto eternal life is in view John 6:40) on the last day
Jesus said " no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me DRAWS HIM and I will RAISE HIM UP on the last day
The same HIM Drawn is the same HIM raised. If one posits that John 12:32 teaches that EVERY PERSON is drawn by the Son, they are by default a Universalist as per John 6:44
"It is spoken also in Heb 6:5 of such as only taste, but digest not; that have their minds informed, not their hearts reformed; sanctified in profession, not in power. And the apostle was persuaded otherwise of these Hebrews to whom he wrote; he was convinced that their faith was not an historical one, but of the operation of God (Col 2:12), evidenced by their fruits, (Heb 6:9,10; 1Th 1:5)."
- Christopher Ness; An Antidote to Arminianism; Ch. 6
I am evil. I am handicapped. I do not understand the will of God. I cannot save myself. The only way is receiving God's mercy. I cannot understand the bible properly. I am corrupted. My heart wants evil things, my desires are wicked. I hate what I do and What I plan to do, but probably i will do it.
That is, I do not understand how many are so sure of their salvation. I find them arrogant. I do not how they know if their hearts are wicked or not.
After REGENERATION, you (your inner man) are NOT- You have been born again. What you feel is the battle between the nature of the flesh and your new nature. If you have been born again, then it is unbiblical to believe that you are by nature "evil."
"Paul didn't think so. See what he said in Romans 7. He said that post conversion." I think there are some reformed thinkers that might disagree with you here. Charles Leiter, a friend of Paul Washer, wrote a book called "Justification and Regeneration." The book was actually printed by Heartcry Ministries and Paul Washer wrote the foreword. Regarding Rom 7:7-12 he says: "In vs. 7-12 Paul begins to explain his statement in vs. 5 by reference to his own experience prior to conversion." (p. 151)
Give me some actual arguments instead of the fact that someone believes it. I could just as easily say that there some Reformed thinkers that would disagree with you. Now where have we got?
In the book Lieter bases these statements on a detailed exegesis of Romans 6 and 7. He notes that in Romans 7:18-19, 23-24, Paul, in his own words, is describing states of wretchedness, bondage, and inability to do good. This, among other things, leads him to believe that Paul is not describing the Christian. To understand Romans 7, Lieter says, you need to go back to two statements at the end of Chapter 5. (cont)
First, he says, "the Law came in that the transgression might increase", and then he says, "where sin increased, grace abounded all the more." Paul knew these statements would be misunderstood by the readers, and so he responds to potential objections in chapters 6 and 7. He frames these objections in the form of 4 questions, which are found in Romans 6:1, 6:15, 7:7, and 7:13. He then answers each one. The setting of Romans 7:14-25 is the answer to the question in 7:13. (cont)
Romans 7:14-25 flows from and is a continuation of Paul's discussion in v. 7-13 of the "man to whom the commandment has come." Up to the discussion in vs 13, Paul is only describing the relationship between the law and the flesh. He has not yet explained why the Law should produce such effects. This he can only do by a discussion of "the flesh." Then comes Romans 7:14-25. (Note that I've mixed quotes from Lieter with my own paraphrase here.)
So he holds that "For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing." (Rom 7:19) Paul was speaking of pre-conversion?
I think so. He says, "The man described in Rom 7:7-25 is not the typical 'lost man on the street' who knows nothing of the spirituality or real desirability of the law. The man in Romans 7:7-25 is the man 'to whom the commandment has come'. He makes statements that the typical unbeliever would never make."
So he's basically saying that if we hold that Romans 7:19 is speaking of an unbeliever then unbelievers desire to do good. Interesting. I don't agree in the least, but it's interesting.
Again, Leiter says, "Paul then continues in the present tense until the end of the chapter, giving a firsthand account of the 'bondage to sin' experienced by those who are 'in the flesh'. He does this from the vantage point of one who has now become a Christian and can see clearly the conflict that was formerly taking place in his life. For this reason the terminology that Paul uses in these verses shows much Christian influence, though it is descriptive of his pre-Christian state."
I see. So does he hold that Paul was doing good when he was a Pharisee or that people have the desire to do good pre-regeneration? Verse 19 says, "For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing."(Rom 7:19)
Paul wanted to do good here. Either Paul was speaking of his experience before conversion calling the things that he wanted to do then (kill Christians, be self-righteous, etc.) good, he was saying that unbelievers desire God and to do good, or he was speaking of his post conversion state saying that the things he wants to do now (keep the law, love Jesus with all his heart, mind and strength, etc.) good. I think the latter is the only rational response.
That's a good question. I'm not sure, but here's what Lieter says. "The state of misery that he is experiencing eventuates in his coming to Christ. 'Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord'. From this it is evident that this man is being 'taught by God' and is 'hearing and learning from the Father.'" So, I guess he would hold that the man is not regenerated, but his conscience has been awakened to some degree so that he experiences some grief for his sin.
As I sit here with the book in front of me, I should point out that Lieter may only be trying to address what Romans 7 is teaching. He finishes his chapter with this. "There is no doubt that every true Christian has felt at times as if he were 'in the middle' of Romans 7. Even the truly Righteous man falls 7 times. Christian experience always involves excruciating defeat as part of the process of learning to 'walk in the spirit.'... (cont)
"The question before us is not, 'what do Christians often experience?' but "What is Paul teaching in Romans 7?" Thus, this all may be an academic exercise. Romans 7 is a difficult passage for me to understand, and reading your post reminded me of this book.
Well, I don't believe that anyone can do anything like that apart from the Spirit's regeneration. We know that the law is spiritual and sin is the breaking of the law. If one is desiring to do good and keep the law, it's something spiritual that's occurred namely regeneration. This is a little off to the side, but it's interesting how Jesus says that the Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin. Is everyone in the entire world convicted of their sin or could it be that world means elect?
Right. Thus, I think your original disagreement with the statement,
"If you have been born again, then it is unbiblical to believe that you are by nature "evil.""
was on the mark. I guess the point is that Romans 7 may not be the passage to use.
Regarding your second question, I don't really know. This is all "above my paygrade." Don't the Calvanists have a doctrine of a "common grace" that restrains the unregenerated from acting like the complete sinners that they are capable of?
The term "common grace" has many different meanings. It depends on who you're talking to about it sometimes as to what answer you'll get. I don't think it's called common grace, but there is a doctrine that God restrains everyone from being as bad as they possibly could be (doing evil deeds, etc.)
Notice how the gentleman continues to try to reassure us that what he is teaching is BIBLICAL- as opposed to the rest of Christendom's soteriological misinterpretations.
What LACK OF HUMILITY in the midst of 2000 years of theology!
The "London Confession of Faith" is what is called a "Particular" confession as opposed to a "General" confession which is Arminian. Needless to say, BOTH are Wrong-
In Lutheranism, our philosophy is not "This or that" but rather, "This AND that..."
We are called to listen to the WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD rather than place one text above the other.
Christ is the propitiation NOT ONLY FOR US but for THE WHOLE WORLD. God wants ALL MEN TO BE SAVED.
The hidden agenda in this video is a Calvinistic doctrine called "irresistible grace." In other words, a person cannot REJECT the call of God to repent and believe the Gospel.
This (by default) leads to double-predestination, in which God "chooses" certain individuals to be saved while others to be damned, or left in their sins and trespasses.
Calvinism is a complete distortion of the Biblical account.
TainoRebelde, with all due respect, you're very ignorant as to what Calvinism is. It seems that you're pretty knowledgeable on the straw men, though. Watch my video on double predestination to answer all of these straw men that you've raised.
FUNNY- since I am an ex-Southern Baptist pastor with a Masters Degree in Theology, and working on another Masters, in Divinity from Concordia Theological Seminary...
Perhaps, it is you who just made a straw man out of me?
I know plenty about Calvinism- but explain to me, how is it that you suppose (as a Calvinist) that Christ, though fully God and Man, is DIVISIBLE as to his nature, by keeping his corpus in heaven and his human soul and spirit on earth? Is that not dividing Christ?
This "order" for Salvation is purely CALVINISTIC- and RATIONALIST. The agenda is that man does NOT HAVE THE POWER to either REPENT or have FAITH.
The Lutheran understanding is that with the preaching of the Word, grace is accompanied so that the sinner CAN repent and believe- but THIS does NOT happen BEFORE Regeneration.
To place "conversion" before "regeneration" is simply a lie- a Calvinistic misinterpretation and misapplication of God's Providence.
This is funny, that while watching this video this is an advertisment on how too attract anything in 30 days. Too bad there wasn't a way to have the right ads on a specific video.
I also have a question about the use of Gen 6:5 in point 6. I've heard Paul Washer blast people for using Rev 3:20 for evangelism, because Jesus was talking to the church. In exegeting Gen 6, therefore, should we not use the same method, since God was talking about the people that lived before the flood? If it is wrong to say that Jesus is making a general statement in Rev 3:20 on the basis of the original audience, what enables us to generalize Gen 6:5 in the same way?
No, and I agree with the doctrine of total depravity. I'm simply wondering what principle of exegesis allows one to use Gen 6:5 to support total depravity and condemn the use of Rev 3:20 in evangelism. Is it the existence of Gen 8:21?
In Gen 6:5, it says that "And GOD saw that the wickedness OF MAN..." (that's a universal term not excluding anyone.)
In Rev. 3:1, it says "And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write;..." (that's giving the context of a specific group of people namely the church).
There's the big difference. They aren't in the same context as each other.
Jesus was talking to the church of Laodicea in 3:20.. Jesus said to the church at Smyrna; "Behold, the devil is about to cast some of yo into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation........"
Can I use this verse in evangelism too?
When Jesus clearly addresses a certain group of people, can we honestly sling His words around like He was referring to everyone?
No, we can't just sling his words around. However, I believe it is possible to be talking to a specific audience and yet be making a more general statement. For example, since Jesus was talking to Nicodemus in John 3:16, does that mean that John 3:16 only applies to Nicodemus? I don't mean to take this too far off the subject of the video, but I think it is relevant, because Rev 3:20 is a favorite of decisional regenerationists. (cont).
And I'm not trying to defend the abuses of decisional regeneration. I'm just not sure, though, that we should say that Rev 3:20 cannot be used in evangelism, merely on the basis that Jesus was talking to the church.
If you were dumb enough to believe in satan and become a "satanist" you will fit right in with the Christians....silly humans.
mwqualls 5 months ago
What's "regeneration"? I think I am on stage two @@? Going on to stage three???....... (Pray for me, Christians... I think I am "LOST"(Not saved yet. Not born again yet)....)???
8narrowgate20117 6 months ago
@8narrowgate20117 The stages usually are: lost sinner, then a sinner condemned under the moral law, repentace, and then faith in Christ that He died on a cross for your sins, and rose again to give you newness of life. Ye must be born again, i.e. spiritually reborn. No one's conversion is exactly the same as anyone else's, because God uses your life experiences to bring you to Him.
pegcage 3 months ago
While this is rather complicated and academic in nature, I really appreciate the different concepts presented. It will help me in future evangelism opportunities.
janeym 6 months ago
Excellent...well done and formatted~!!! Scripturally Sound~!!!
akachristian 6 months ago
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Christsavedme77 9 months ago
@Christsavedme77 this verse its adrresed to christians only!! the preceding verse makes it plain because he is taking to the beloved and who are the beloved ? those elected from ch;1 do not take verses out of context
patriotsfan1379 2 months ago
God has not elected certain people to be saved and some are not. This is heresy. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Christsavedme77 9 months ago
The video says..."Salvation is a divine, unilateral, sovereign, miraculous, transformation of the human soul."
Are you saying that someone can make a decision to follow Christ (ala Acts 14:1 and Acts 17: 1-4) and be wrong?
Two simple questions:
1. How exactly does someone know whether they are saved?
2. What EXACTLY is the criteria someone uses to test whether they are saved?
GuyWilliams100 11 months ago
False conversions don't exist giving credence to its possibility is not truth.You cannot make a person who thinks they are saved and are not, saved, because you are correcting a false application. Better preaching does make a conversion. No elect person will ever not be saved, and no person falsely believing are non elect because of a bad message especially out of order to the description above.Those who preach Calvinism need to apply it.
polopowers1 11 months ago
What crap. YYaawwnn
trixxxy100 1 year ago
when a child is born it is not required of that child that he understand how he was born to be born. When a child of God is born, it is not required of that child that he know how God accomplished it in such detail as is given here. God himself even describes it as his peculiar work. What is required, or should i say, is the proof of regeneration? Faith. All those things mentioned as requirements would more accurately be called realities of Holy Spirit given faith.
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@HermitintheRain Psalm 131 A Song of degrees of David. LORD, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me. Surely I have behaved and quieted myself, as a child that is weaned of his mother: my soul is even as a weaned child. Let Israel hope in the LORD from henceforth and for ever.
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
Christ knows how to save He is not limited by ignorance.This complication is class educated people examining more the religious who don't show enough to be saved.This knowledge is for those preaching the gospel five times a year outside Church. Ive been preaching the gospel for thirty two years.I started in hell's kitchen Harlem the Bronx the last fifteen years local university,also in Korea and Mexico I never see people who teach this stuff out there with me.Christ never lost one sheep
polopowers1 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
If you say, "I love the music there", that means the preaching stinks. If you say, "I love the preaching," that means the music stinks....If you say, "No one judges me and I can be who I want to be"...You're at a bar! ~ Tim Hawkins
AcaiBunch 1 year ago
Carlton Pearson's gospel of inclusion solves this whole problem.
k0smon 1 year ago
@k0smon Carlton Pearson creates more problems than anything else. He's a universalist. What's the problem with that? Jesus Christ was not a universalist.
HeReformedMe 1 year ago
Does Anyone Have access to this series in its chronological form? It would be nice to see everything from 1 to 12.
gamhazell 1 year ago
Wow lots of false conversions out there.
I still see Christians sinning till today. Not one is clean. NOT ONE. Lots have sin in their anger, in lust, in hate.
Makes you wonder why God didn't put an electrical fence around THAT Tree in the first place.
MrHawklan 1 year ago
I have almost every video that CrossTv has made. I love Kielar, he's just a view you need to be alert for (not tired at the time of watching). He reiterates a lot, so it gets solidified in the noggin.
BahnsenApologetics 1 year ago
Great Video God Bless :)
Bearkiller777 1 year ago
Why worry about professing Christians I mean I know we should care for their soul.But does God ever miss one of His elect.?If someone was sprinkled with truth God is not fooled.We can adorn the gospel but we need to be careful not to make it a law.This is a lot for a depraved mind to get before conversion.
polopowers1 1 year ago
@brillstreet when traditions and church fathers beliefs contradict the bible what do we do. Who do we trust more tradition, fathers, or the Bible. I choose the bible go Sola Scripute
bradensmagic 1 year ago
Thanks Lane. Excellent.
UrbanGypsy2 2 years ago
You mean intellectually I can analyze whether I'm saved huh?
polopowers1 2 years ago
There is no such thing as a false conversion just a false profession.Your already confusing the unsaved.
polopowers1 2 years ago
Sola scriptura is nothing more, but it is something less. It denies it's adherents 1500 years of Sacred Tradition which existed before there even was a New Testament. It's a 16th century invention, man made and incomplete.
brillstreet 2 years ago
I think it's hard to believe in the bible - there are so many...how du I say it in english....contrasts ? you know what I mean? Like one part is particulary bright and the other totally depressive... I'm not an atheist, but I'm not a traditional christian - I think everyone needs to find his own way to heaven - at least, it was humans who wrote the bible, and humans make mistakes, don't they? They could have understood something wrong or anything and now millions set their hopes in their thought
Iriien 2 years ago
It is true that there are many translations. The Word that God send to us in not the dead letter of each word. God's Word is alive and gives us life. The message is the same in the translations, some are weak and some are more strong. also have the strongs concordance that we can refer back to the original language meaning. Joh 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
GodsSeer 2 years ago
wow! The Lord directed me to Crosstv right after He made me new :-) I never heard of John Flavel before until today. This was absolutely amazingly poetic and in alignment with the word of God!
sisjelaine 2 years ago
Calvinism has explicitly described in biblical terms to me, what happend to me and why.
i was visited by the Holy Ghost when i was 19. [no tongues] and spiritually raised from the dead.
Calvinism describes exactly what happend to not just me.,
But all drawn by the Father to Christ.
agentorangetechno 2 years ago
I was a Satanist when i was younger, and that didnt stop God at all.
he really really does work all things for those who love God.,to those called according to his own purpose. romans8;28
agentorangetechno 2 years ago 3
There was just no way i was coming to Christ ever, unless he hath choosen to do so before the foundations of the planet.
i would have utterly hated God and his church even till i died.
agentorangetechno 2 years ago 2
@agentorangetechno if you were dumb enough to believe in satan, you are dumb enough to believe in christianity....
mwqualls 5 months ago
Excellent video.
In my own case, I can attest to this drawing process. There was no man involved in the process either, it was just me and God. I didn't know any Christians nor did I have anyone 'lead' me to Christ.
It was purely an act of God.
silmalila 2 years ago 2
You shall know them by their fruits!
AbaloneKid 2 years ago
The irony is almost palpable when he says "a false manmade hypocritical conversion"
CntrBrdr 2 years ago
So true & just on an artistic note, these vids are beautifully done.
fruitofspirit 2 years ago
The Biggest Most Serious Mistake Most People Tragically do Today is judge and condemn anyone because they don't follow what is Popular and what the Majority believe and follow.
i don't follow man made scribe and pharisee traditions and anything that end's with ism's.
i follow Jesus and His Word.
We need to follow the Voice of the Holy Spirit not the voice of man,the world and satan.
Ontario925 2 years ago
AMEN!
I couldn't have said it any Better.
In this case scripture
John 8:31-32 (NIV)
The Children of Abraham 31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
I believe, I repented of my sins, and I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior and asked him in my Heart.
I AM FREE, I trust him, I love him, I need him, and I follow Him.
I praise him,
Deesrickchevrolet 2 years ago
AMEN! The Bible, nothing more nothing less. Only God is the ever righteous that can judge. Not mortals. Plus I have a question bout this lenghty detailed theory on this video. what about the Thief that was crucified with Jesus, he did not know any of these indepth theories, nor had enough time to prove to you people who are looking for evidence that he is actually save. All his life he was wicked, but he at the cross he humbled himself & said to Jesus to remember him when He enters heaven????
icepickflip 2 years ago
"saved" is a process, we are in the process of salvation, no man can ask another man to truly repent, true repentance comes from the heart, its a deep conviction done by the work of the Holy Spirit that first calls us to this action, not man, its a work of God, not a system of man, God the Holy Spirit sends the right people at the right time to give the words a person is being convicted of, this is the true calling of the Christian, we are to be led by the Spirit, and speak where we are called.
SewingGoodSeeds 3 years ago 2
Ive been a christian for years and they make it very complicating. good information but for a nonbeliever it is hard to grasp all of this. Good video, but not so good of an explanation for a nonbeliever
LetsRapeGovernment 3 years ago
Dang! most seem to miss that Baptism saves. It is not put first and it is added on a to do list but Peter qoutes "the baptism that now saves you". What a shame.
jonyrock777 3 years ago
are you implying that by being sprinkled, and or dunked in water, that we some how ADD to the work that Christ did?
HeReformedMe 3 years ago
I am not. All the Apostle's did tough. We would all know that if we read all the letters and got the whole picture. Paul said: Baptism was the new covenant cirumcision, also that you cloth yourself with christ, and that you die and live a new life at baptism. PETER said: Baptism was for the forgiveness of your sins and that baptism saves you. I can actually reference this if you would like. I use to think like you intill I really studied with others.
jonyrock777 3 years ago
Lk.23:39-43
Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying "If ye are the Christ, save Yourself and us." But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong."
(cont)
HeReformedMe 3 years ago
Some of you confuse faith with hope/belief. Faith is a knowing, not a belief, it means you understand the love of God, and know God. Love matters more than the bible, which means the bible matters not. To say I need Christ to find the MOTHER and Father of creation is a lie created by christian cultist to create a middle MAN between me and god. Christianity and the bible are male dominated and fear based creations. I challenge you in the name of love/god to remove your judgments over humankind.
silverthorn777 3 years ago
Lol! This is Hersey! "12 steps to Salvation"? Of course that is only for the elect?
"false hypocritically faith"? Now how and who would determine that! 12 steps in 3-4sub parts each?! Uh huh.
So...Where is the simplicity of Christ? Who can be saved. But of course, it only for the elite Christ elect club.
Lol! Okay sinners you can just go home! You have that special elect club before you can be saved. We should listen to men instead of reading the bible and taking God at his word.
simplydannygirl 3 years ago
Danny, I don't mind you disagreeing with things, but I do ask that you stay away from the pejorative rhetoric and actually address the points that you wish to address. If you're unable to do so, I can assist you with that.
LaneCh 3 years ago
"pejorative rhetoric". Lol! Now that is funny. Well Lane, I do thank you for your willingness to allow others to disagree.
But salvatio is immediate for those that except the invitation for God's salvation.
2Cor 5:18-6:1-2, Romam 10:9-13, John 3:16-18. Rom 12: 1-3. Now, If this is not enough. Who can be saved? Why do need a man's teaching to put such a unneassry burden on back and blocks us from God's salvation. But, perhaps I should be softer in my approach. I know your guys are good people
simplydannygirl 3 years ago
"Why do need a man's teaching to put such a unneassry burden on back and blocks us from God's salvation."
Explain how your loaded (complex) question is true.
LaneCh 3 years ago
lane i tried to post it twice. But it is not here. Even though. It said "Comment Posted!" What gives?
Danny
simplydannygirl 3 years ago
I'm not sure. This one came through, and this video doesn't have comment moderation on.
LaneCh 3 years ago
@simplydannygirl ,I see that you believe that there are 12 steps to salvation,this is not what Mark is saying at all.This is just the order that Salvation follows,all a person does to be saved is believe,God has taken care of everything else.He chose them,changed them,converted them and gave every gift to the person so that HIS WILL would be accomplished.Jesus is the beginner and finisher of our salvation,man is really just a bystander in the process.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
1)Oh, that had more room in this box!
12, let me repeat 12 steps! In 3-4+ subdivisions each. This salvation process, if you can call it that, is burdensome. Who can stand? How long does it take for God to forgive a repentant sinner anyway? PS: 32"1-2. Then Psalms 15. "Who shall ascend?"
Imagine if two wanted marry and had to go through 12 in 3-4+ subdivisions requirements. They would be weary of the whole thing and walk away.
simplydannygirl 3 years ago
2)Now, try obtaining God's Salvation by trying to walk in these 12 steps in 3-4 subdivisions directories. It makes these steps to God's saving Grace a Prerequisite. then it would still be by works of ones own righteousness. Which is never possible. But this is not God's Prerequisite. This 12 steps in 3-4 sub divisions. It makes God too hard to come to. It is a unnecessary burden put on by a man. It's not God Burden. His yoke is easy and His burden is light.
Sola Scriptura.
Danny
simplydannygirl 3 years ago
AMEN...sola scripta nothing more nothing less. For God so loved the world that means God wants us to be saved, and not any man should perish. God's yoke is easy. That means HE does not require of us to go to bootcamp to be save. Just simply through faith. Amen!
icepickflip 2 years ago
Your missing baptism. Read the whole book of acts and you will see that everyone who turned to christ was baptized immediately because baptism with faith forgives you of your sin, baptism saves you. I use to use every verse you used to get people saved but than I read and read and understood baptism was needed for salvation.
jonyrock777 3 years ago
Comment removed
simplydannygirl 3 years ago
Romans 10 "if u confess if your mouth" etc was written by paul to the church but ppl like u use it to get ppl saved. Try reading romans 6 before 10 & u will see when we died to sin. At baptism not the alter call. Again read the beginning of John 3 before going all the way to verse 16. We have to be born again by spirit and WATER! If baptism doesnt save u than what power does it have? Paul "arise & be baptzed washing away ur sin calling on his name" U want me to believe him or u?
jonyrock777 3 years ago
Comment removed
simplydannygirl 3 years ago
I was hoping that it wouldnt come to this. YOU: "Baptism itself does not save you" now compare what you said to what peter is saying. Open up your bible to 1 peter 3:21 "and this water symbolizes baptism (no baptism is not a symbol) THAT NOW SAVES YOU also- (later) it SAVES YOU BY THE RESURECTION of JESUS CHRIST! Who should I believe. You are giving more power to the unbiblical "alter call" and "sinners pray" than the biblical baptism.
jonyrock777 3 years ago
First of all Jonyrock I guess I should ask you if you are Catholic or Lutheran. If you are then your salvation education is going to be totally skewed to begin with. I'm going to give you the versus you quoted AS they are written and then in context. I will let scripture interperet scripture so I may have to continue this on two sections. In John 3 Jesus is talking to Nicodemus who asks Jesus in verse 4 how a man can be born again when he is old as he cannot crawl back into the womb. Cont...
sixthday132 2 years ago
Catholiism is not christianity @ nothing they do really is in the bible. Lutherns r Ok but r kind of dry. I would say I like to associate with pentocastol @ apostolic teaching. They doing everything biblical: true church government, the gifts, helaing, dream interpertation, worship @ dance, revaltion @ a sound salvation doctrine. I accept your correction but I would rather baptize than asking some1 to pray jesus into their Heart. I would know. I did for yrs before I found out that I was false.
jonyrock777 2 years ago
(cont.) Then he said to Jesus "Lord remember me when You come into Your kingdom." And Jesus said to him "Assuredly I say unto you, TODAY you will be with Me in Paradise."
No mention of any rituals in this mans personal guarantee from the lips of Christ Himself, that he was indeed justified. This was by his faith alone. Not my words my friend, but they are that of Jesus our Lord.
HeReformedMe 3 years ago
Wow! u sound like me 6 months ago. Remember the paralytic in Mathew chp 2. Jesus Said " i have authority on Earth to forgive Sins" let me ask u. Did king daved, samuel, daniel, ppl who died during jesus go to heaven? YES why? they where under the old convenant. So was the Thief on the Cross. The new covenant didnt come to pass when Jesus died but when he rose. That is why the 1st "altar cal"l was by peter "repent be BAPTIZED for the FORGIVNESS OF YOUR SINs. Explain that! Please I am begging
jonyrock777 3 years ago
Don't get me wrong my friend, I am not trying to cheapen the idea of baptism. Jesus saw it as being important enough to do, so why should I not be baptized if I believe. But I won't say that everyone who is baptized is saved, nor will I say that everyone who is NOT baptized is not saved.
Obedience to God is not a "requirement" to have a relationship with Him, rather it is the "result" of said relationship. Thats all I'm saying...didn't mean to offend you at all.
HeReformedMe 3 years ago
It is not that. I get angry that pple say "repeat this prayer after me and u will be saved, Dear Jesus.." and they dont follow that with baptism. Than they have baptism services 6 months after the person recieved christ. And they say baptism is a symbol & it doesnt save which in my mind they are saying that a sincere prayer that is unbiblical has more power than baptism that is biblical. Baptism is not a work just like repentance and obedience isnt. They are the essentials to be really saved.
jonyrock777 3 years ago
Not everyone can be baptised in clean water. No one wants to be baptised in dirty water. Some have limited use to so much water to cover the body.
Baptism is NOT essential to being saved. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is not water baptism.
JudgeEden 3 years ago
Your right. I am saying the only exception to being saved without water baptism is the baptism that John the baptist talked about it and that cornelius recieved before baptism and that is fine but much of the main stream church has used that as an accuse to even take out baptism of the Holy spirit and substifuting that with saying the sinner's pray "just pray Jesus into your heart" so people not being baptized with water or fire. That is what I was trying to say.
jonyrock777 3 years ago
Okay, thank you very much for clearing that up. I wasn't sure if that was indeed what you were saying, so I just decided to say it.
JudgeEden 3 years ago
I believe in the Bible nothing more nothing less...if this is so true, then why did Jesus said to the thief on the cross that this day he will join Christ in Paradise?? All his life the thief was wicked until that day on the cross...he was not even baptized nor had the chance to do good to humanity...he simply put FAITH to Jesus on his last remaining hours on earth...and through faith...the Bible said Jesus saved him. its a perfect biblical example on salvation through faith.
icepickflip 2 years ago 3
Here is ur answer. Accept it. In the gospels jesus went around telling ppl that there sins were forgiven & they were saved. Jesus physically walked & ppl witnessed him justifying others. The theif in this case was justified during the old covenant, remember it is the resurrection that brought the world into the new covenant. Peter was to usher in the church which happened in Acts. HE didnt say "Pray jesus in ur heart" but rather "REPENT be BAPTIZED and THEN U wILL RECIEVE THE HOLY SPIRIT.
jonyrock777 2 years ago
The moment one receives the atoning sacrifice of Christ as His redeemer, His faith makes him Holy, because Christ';s righteousness is imputed to him. It is by faitnot of works, least we have something to boast of. But let us continue in THAT faith in Christ, which continues to sanctify/cleanse us making us worthy of God. Muslims believe they can earn salvation by many words/prayers. Now God owes them?
GodsSeer 2 years ago
I've always wondered that myself. The angel tells Daniel, go your way and rest until the time of the end. And the thief was told by Jesus, today you will be with Me in paradise. I'm confused.
jamakras 3 years ago
Jesus understands his confusion in verse 5 and clarifies to Nicodemus that you are first born of the flesh (water in the womb) and THEN of the spirit. It is not speaking of Baptism here and I can qualify this by the fact that when Jesus was explaining salvation to Nicodemus he first mentioned being born of water and then mentioned born of the spirit. Clearly this is not in the right order if baptism is required for salvation. Baptism is a not required but an act of public obedience.
sixthday132 2 years ago
No wonder there is a massive confusion among christianity today. You don't even have to ask, but just look around & you'll be amazed by the numbers. The Holy Scriptures which are compiled into the Holy Bible, are all about one Church & that is The Church of the Lamb of God or even The Church of Jesus Christ. All will be given Salvation, but its our Exaltation matters.
leSavaii 3 years ago
They should retitle this to:
'How Religious Hypocrites Brainwash the Ignorant and Enslave their Wallets'
What a load of bull plop!
Nobody is born evil.......Retard!
And you're only saved......If it's done the right way?
Religion is the biggest lie perpitrated on humans.
Your not a true slave, until you fall for this story.
bigboy45454545 3 years ago
Thank you for your words, which encourage me to press on toward the mark of Jesus Christ! Because of course, what you preach must be true! Especially when your goal is only to knock down others...and I'd rather be the lowest of Christ slaves than whatever you might be yoked to right now...
porlafesola 3 years ago
"Nobody is born evil...Retard!"
Wow, this in and of itself is a self refuting statement. Simply because you disagree you revert to playground like name calling?
The question really is "can it be demonstrated that we are indeed born sinners? Well do we have to teach our children to lie? Or be selfish, and self centered? Or to be brutal to other children? NO! They come this way! In fact we have to teach them to NOT do these things. WHY? Because we are BORN SINNERS! Whether you agree or not.
HeReformedMe 3 years ago
Beyond Catholicism there are about 10,000 Christian denominations. Us, as individual Christians, are not going to agree with ANYONE 100% of the time.
I agree with Mark Kieler about 97% of the time and honestly feel he is a blessed man of God! My prayers are with all my brothers and sisters that we find the truth.
Thanks again to LaneCh for posting all the great videos! -Peace-
randy95023 3 years ago
Gee, imagine if one is not a seminary student. They would not understand made up terms like "Decisional Regeneration" They would think God hasd this elite club where only the elect could resaved.
This teaching makes to hard for most people to understans the call for salvation.
Why not jst preach the Romans road? Roman 10:9-13 and john 3:16-18. 1cor 5:18-6:2
Kielar is wrong. No where in the bible does it say anything about 12 steps to salvation. Where is the simplicity of the Gospel?
simplydannygirl 3 years ago
Praise Jesus!
Dejan2116 3 years ago
this was really good, I liked it alot, God bless, and keep making these videos so that men can understand biblical salvation,
Jon
illbehonest 3 years ago
You can never be sure if someone is saved, only guess based on what you see. And even then you cant really know if someone is saved or not. Only God knows this, and he should be the only one. We must be careful before dealing out judgement when we ourselves all have things we are dealing with and sins we are struggling with. Being saved means coming to a point where you realize you cant live on your own but that you need God to take control of your life. Works have nothing to do with it, but are
thecrossofjesus7 3 years ago
it has nothing to do with works at all.
thecrossofjesus7 3 years ago
Romans 10:9-13 requirments:
You have to Here, believe, repent, and confess. "Who so ever shall call on the name of the Lord will be saved." How many people are theological students anyway? What a silly man made burden you have put on Men. You have now made difficult the simplicity of the Gospel. John 3:16-18. Your Idea of God's salvation is harder to pass then a Law exam. Then there is no love. By your standards, who can be saved?
You must love Brothers. You gotta Love.
God Bless
Danny
simplydannygirl 3 years ago
In reading your post, I am curious, do you believe that people don't have to repent to be saved? Repent and confess is the same thing, and don't you believe, that we do have to believe in Jesus. I mean, what if you don't believe that He is God in the flesh. Would you still say that a person is saved? The devils believe, but they are not saved. Just asking in love, not any harshness... :)
carpentersdaughter2 3 years ago
To qoute myself: "Romans 10:9-13 requirments:
You have to Here, believe, repent, and confess." Is what I said CLEARLY.
I repeat the Romans road. Rom 10:9-13. Then John 3:16-8. Clearly. You have to beleive what is clearly written in the/these scriptures to be saved. Jesus God made Flesh is the way the true and the Life. No other name under Heaven can we be saved.
In love as well. No harshness with me either.
God Bless
Danny
Check Out my John and Sarha video
simplydannygirl 3 years ago
Did you know not believing that Jesus came it the flesh is like a Muslim or a Jehovah's Witness or something. 1john4:3 say it is the Spirit of Anti Christ.
So we must beieve that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. It sis denial of his Good head and Resuurection.
Love in Christ
Danny
simplydannygirl 3 years ago
I think that regeneration, conversion, and inward drawing are all really just different terms for the same general thing. We could say that when someone is inwardly drawn, they are thereby regenerated or converted, but this is all closely related. I like the way Piper explains the new birth. I don't like it when people say we must be born again before we have faith, because faith precedes being born again. But, God grants repentance and faith, which I think is what we are trying to emphasize.
Studier101 3 years ago
"because faith precedes being born again."
I believe the Bible teaches the opposite. Regeneration precedes faith. See 1 John 5:1, John 1:13, Eph 2
Here's an analogy. Just as breath is the first thing that happens when a baby is born (physical life), likewise, faith is the "first gasp for air" when someone is given spiritual life (being born again)
Faith is the natural result of being made spiritually alive by God's grace, not the cause of it.
skalapunk 3 years ago
Wow. You comment everywhere! And I thought GOD was omnipresent... ;)
ClumsyRoot 3 years ago
Hey I remember you!
Curious why you're always on theistic material webpages?
skalapunk 3 years ago
LOL! I saw the link, and the provocative title drew me in. I actually spend most of my time watching "Flight of the Conchord" clips, and anything with cute kittens in it. :)
ClumsyRoot 3 years ago
When God saved me, I tried to get away by sinning. I said to myself, "this can't be happening, I must be over emotional, etc." Finally I surrendered. It's not a decision. I've never been the same since. I couldn't get enough of Him and I was convicted of my sins. It's truly supernatural on how God saves a person. Thank you for these truths, and I so hope that false converts will hear and come to true salvation. God Bless!
mdkbdshan 3 years ago
All the unbelievers I've shared the law with don't desire to keep it and do good. They mock and abhor me for even bringing it up, but apparently his unbeliever has a desire to keep it (per "He makes statements that the typical unbeliever would never make.".) Very interesting.
LaneCh 3 years ago
aTrueHybrid-
Tell me what OSAS is, please.
I keep hearing it used and don't know what it is. : (
Studier101 3 years ago
Once Saved Always Saved
newbirth35 3 years ago
Can someone please clarify for me I seem to be bit confused on this. Is this video saying that God has an Elect group of people? If so why does scripture say that christ died for the whole world and not just the elect? Also is this video saying that the reason that the elect are drawn to the outward call is because of the holy spirit in them or is the holy spirit doing the drawing as scripture says?
Gospelboy190 3 years ago
Yes, God has an elect group. Christ laid His life down for the sheep.
The reason the elect are drawn is... well, the reason they COME to God, is that they are drawn.
They are drawn, because it's God's sovereign will.
SalvationEternity777 3 years ago
GospelBoy,
1)Yes God has his elect. The Word "World" is used in different ways. In John 3:16 it is referring to certain people. The word "World" is used the same way in other places:
Luke 2:1
And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that ALL THE WORLD should be taxed.
2)Its the Holy Spirit in them (inward call) that makes them born again, and they now DESIRE to believe. Without the inward call, they WILL NOT believe nor care of the outward call.
ChristianTULIP 3 years ago
But I thought no man is filled with the holy spirit until afer he is saved or at the moment of accepting salvation?
Gospelboy190 3 years ago
GospelBoy,
That is referring to the Charismatic gifts given to the believers of infant church in the Apostolic age. These were for the establishment of the church before the New Testament was completed:
Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance
ChristianTULIP 3 years ago
@Gospelboy190 tis confusing isn't it? hmmmmmm... how are we to receive the Kingdom again... right "like a child." Children could never understand this 12 step process of Salvation laid out here... it's ridiculous. So according to this "How can they be saved?"
jmatsilv 1 year ago
Thanks, aTH. I appreciate your kind words. Likewise on my end, brother. Never hesitate to let me know if I can be of help.
LaneCh 3 years ago
Not rightly. They bring in many extrabiblical things like that notion of "free-will". Yet if you ask them to give you one indicative statement about free-will from the Bible, all they give you is no answer or imperative statements. The Bible simply doesn't teach it, yet we're the ones who are accused of trying to "rationalize Scripture and bring it into our bias." :)
LaneCh 3 years ago
Funny,,, that it is Jesus who calls us to REPENTANCE- God does not offer to repent for us.
On our own we do not have the power to repent, BUT WITH THE WORD- God gives us his grace so that we can repent. We can repent because it is God who gives us the power to do so- but he does not do it for us.
Mark 1:15- Repent ye, and believe the Gospel!
TainoRebelde 3 years ago
Just because the words "free-will" are not in the Bible does not mean the agency does not exist. That's like saying no one in the Bible ever "used the bathroom" because the words just aren't there. It's unreasonable and illogical to interpret in such a manner.
Paul said in Philippians 1:21-23. "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I CHOOSE? I do not know!" Ahhhh..... that's not FREE WILL?
jmatsilv 1 year ago
We believe that, too. We just differ on the reason that one "walks through the door." Calvinists hold that it's because of God's grace. Non-Reformed (Arminians, Pelagians, etc.) believe that it's because in some way they are better than someone else whether that be smarter, more spiritually sensitive, able to follow argumentation, use coupons at the supermarket, wear Nike shoes... whatever... you can fill in why.
LaneCh 3 years ago
Your salvation is SECURE IN CHRIST- but the Scriptures also teach concerning Apostates- those who leave the faith.
TainoRebelde 3 years ago
Apostates in the sense that they made a profession of faith and fell away. This doesn't mean that they were true Christians. When Jesus comes back and He says to people, "Depart from me, I never knew you." do you hold that the Bible messed up and He's going to say "Depart from me, I once knew you but because of your apostacy, I've become forgetful." No, He's says, "never knew".
LaneCh 3 years ago
John 12: 32-
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL MEN unto me."
My friend- The Father draws ALL MEN to Christ through the preaching of the Gospel.
TainoRebelde 3 years ago
If all men are drawn why aren't all men raised to eternal life? You do believe that people are going to hell right?
Also, how can you convince people with your positive assertion that "all" means every single person in existence and not all of a particular group?
LaneCh 3 years ago
If you follow the order given in John 6:44, first comes the drawing of the man, then comes the raising up (salvifically) of that same man. I'm happy to say that there's literally no (sound) way around this.
LaneCh 3 years ago
NO, I do not believe that "people are going to hell," or even that God sends them there. I believe that we are ALL BORN IN ORIGINAL SIN- that we are by nature sinful and corrupt- dead in our sins and trespasses, and ALREADY part of Satans kingdom when we are born.
But the good news is: That God so loved THE WORLD (since you ask what "all" means) *THE COSMOS* check your Koine- he gave his only Begotten Son, so that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES will not perish, but have eternal life.
TainoRebelde 3 years ago
"NO, I do not believe that "people are going to hell," or even that God sends them there. I believe that we are ALL BORN IN ORIGINAL SIN- that we are by nature sinful and corrupt- dead in our sins and trespasses, and ALREADY part of Satans kingdom when we are born."
So do you believe that we're in hell now? I think I saw a movie or heard a rap song that had that "theology" the other day, too.
LaneCh 3 years ago
I have a good mp3 on this subject from James White. Here's the link.:
tinyurl(.)com/96cq2p
LaneCh 3 years ago
The Bible says a man is dead in his sin (Eph 2:1 and made quickened (made alive) with Christ (Eph 2:5). We have a sovereign and omnipotent Lord. Praise God!
derran15 3 years ago
Yes, it's in that very verse.
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(Joh 6:44)
Jesus says that those who are drawn are those who are raised up at the last day. Is everyone raised up at the last day (meaning salvation)? Well, the Bible is pretty clear that there are people going to hell so the answer is no.
LaneCh 3 years ago
You are playing with words for the sake of defending your Calvinistic bias!
THAT is exactly the problem with our "Reformed" brothers- they take the Word of God and "rationalize it" in order to conform to their agenda.
Christ did not say that he would draw ONLY THOSE WOULD BE RAISED IN THE LAST DAY- (by the way, unbelievers will be raised too- Daniel 12). I wonder what rationalization you would give to John 12: 32 where Jesus says that if lifted up, he would draw ALL MEN unto himself?
TainoRebelde 3 years ago
Did I say that only believers would be raised in the sense you're talking about? No. I made it perfectly clear in that comment that the context means for it to be a salvific sense.
"You are playing with words for the sake of defending your Calvinistic bias!
THAT is exactly the problem with our "Reformed" brothers- they take the Word of God and "rationalize it"...
Also, if you don't quit with the pejorative rhetoric, you will be blocked. I have little time to babysit such inane gibberish.
LaneCh 3 years ago
"I wonder what rationalization you would give to John 12: 32 where Jesus says that if lifted up, he would draw ALL MEN unto himself?"
If you want to smuggle John 12:32 into John 6:44 you end up with universalism since all that are drawn to the Son as per John 6:44 are raised to eternal life.
John 12:32 has ANOTHER context than John 6:44 as the GREEKS (vs. 20) are coming to speak to Jesus. Hence he says that through his sacrifice on the cross people from all nations will come unto him.
Arrsht 3 years ago
NEGATIVE- you are over-extending the meaning of the passages. On passage need not overlap the other. "The context" (as you say) is actually dealing with Hellenistic Jews- not Gentiles.
But that is beside the point. You are interpreting "draw" with "saved." This is where the problem lies.
When Christ says that he will DRAW ALL MEN to himself, he does not mean something else. Jesus means what he says.
You Zwinglians always have trouble believing the plain words of Christ!
TainoRebelde 3 years ago
""The context" (as you say) is actually dealing with Hellenistic Jews- not Gentiles."
Lets EXAMINE that. Thayer Definition:
1) a Greek either by nationality, whether a native of the main land or of the Greek islands or colonies
2) in a wider sense the name embraces all nations not Jews that made the language, customs, and learning of the Greeks their own; the primary reference is to a difference of religion and worship
Anthropos is NOT in the text and ALL is qualified by the context.
Arrsht 3 years ago
"You are interpreting "draw" with "saved."
Actually I am looking at John 6:44 where all those drawn by the Father to the Son are raised up (resurrection unto eternal life is in view John 6:40) on the last day
Jesus said " no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me DRAWS HIM and I will RAISE HIM UP on the last day
The same HIM Drawn is the same HIM raised. If one posits that John 12:32 teaches that EVERY PERSON is drawn by the Son, they are by default a Universalist as per John 6:44
Arrsht 3 years ago
God's intervention is the only way that man is able to come to Him.
"No man can (has the ability; is able) come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:..."
- Jesus Christ
(Joh 6:44a)
LaneCh 3 years ago
"It is spoken also in Heb 6:5 of such as only taste, but digest not; that have their minds informed, not their hearts reformed; sanctified in profession, not in power. And the apostle was persuaded otherwise of these Hebrews to whom he wrote; he was convinced that their faith was not an historical one, but of the operation of God (Col 2:12), evidenced by their fruits, (Heb 6:9,10; 1Th 1:5)."
- Christopher Ness; An Antidote to Arminianism; Ch. 6
I have the book. I could send it to you online.
LaneCh 3 years ago
His way and thoughts are higher and we can never simply to such Godly understanding! Repent and continue to live Holy and pleasing to God!
ephr123 3 years ago
Everytime I make a contrast between me and what God wants from me, I fall short. I feel pity, but my wicked heart does not see the dimension of sin.
agfigueroaa 3 years ago
You are paying attention to the devil- he is a liar and a deceiver.
If you have been born again, through the Water and the Spirit, THEN you have a new nature. You are a new "genea" or "generation."
The grief you feel is your good heart in its battle against the sin of the flesh. Read Romans 7 carefully.
TainoRebelde 3 years ago 2
I am evil. I am handicapped. I do not understand the will of God. I cannot save myself. The only way is receiving God's mercy. I cannot understand the bible properly. I am corrupted. My heart wants evil things, my desires are wicked. I hate what I do and What I plan to do, but probably i will do it.
That is, I do not understand how many are so sure of their salvation. I find them arrogant. I do not how they know if their hearts are wicked or not.
agfigueroaa 3 years ago
You were ONCE in nature sinful and unclean.
After REGENERATION, you (your inner man) are NOT- You have been born again. What you feel is the battle between the nature of the flesh and your new nature. If you have been born again, then it is unbiblical to believe that you are by nature "evil."
TainoRebelde 3 years ago
"If you have been born again, then it is unbiblical to believe that you are by nature "evil.""
Paul didn't think so. See what he said in Romans 7. He said that post conversion.
LaneCh 3 years ago
"Paul didn't think so. See what he said in Romans 7. He said that post conversion." I think there are some reformed thinkers that might disagree with you here. Charles Leiter, a friend of Paul Washer, wrote a book called "Justification and Regeneration." The book was actually printed by Heartcry Ministries and Paul Washer wrote the foreword. Regarding Rom 7:7-12 he says: "In vs. 7-12 Paul begins to explain his statement in vs. 5 by reference to his own experience prior to conversion." (p. 151)
KyleVonMour 3 years ago
My response to that is: "So?"
Give me some actual arguments instead of the fact that someone believes it. I could just as easily say that there some Reformed thinkers that would disagree with you. Now where have we got?
LaneCh 3 years ago
In the book Lieter bases these statements on a detailed exegesis of Romans 6 and 7. He notes that in Romans 7:18-19, 23-24, Paul, in his own words, is describing states of wretchedness, bondage, and inability to do good. This, among other things, leads him to believe that Paul is not describing the Christian. To understand Romans 7, Lieter says, you need to go back to two statements at the end of Chapter 5. (cont)
KyleVonMour 3 years ago
First, he says, "the Law came in that the transgression might increase", and then he says, "where sin increased, grace abounded all the more." Paul knew these statements would be misunderstood by the readers, and so he responds to potential objections in chapters 6 and 7. He frames these objections in the form of 4 questions, which are found in Romans 6:1, 6:15, 7:7, and 7:13. He then answers each one. The setting of Romans 7:14-25 is the answer to the question in 7:13. (cont)
KyleVonMour 3 years ago
Romans 7:14-25 flows from and is a continuation of Paul's discussion in v. 7-13 of the "man to whom the commandment has come." Up to the discussion in vs 13, Paul is only describing the relationship between the law and the flesh. He has not yet explained why the Law should produce such effects. This he can only do by a discussion of "the flesh." Then comes Romans 7:14-25. (Note that I've mixed quotes from Lieter with my own paraphrase here.)
KyleVonMour 3 years ago
So he holds that "For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing." (Rom 7:19) Paul was speaking of pre-conversion?
LaneCh 3 years ago
I think so. He says, "The man described in Rom 7:7-25 is not the typical 'lost man on the street' who knows nothing of the spirituality or real desirability of the law. The man in Romans 7:7-25 is the man 'to whom the commandment has come'. He makes statements that the typical unbeliever would never make."
KyleVonMour 3 years ago
So he's basically saying that if we hold that Romans 7:19 is speaking of an unbeliever then unbelievers desire to do good. Interesting. I don't agree in the least, but it's interesting.
LaneCh 3 years ago
Again, Leiter says, "Paul then continues in the present tense until the end of the chapter, giving a firsthand account of the 'bondage to sin' experienced by those who are 'in the flesh'. He does this from the vantage point of one who has now become a Christian and can see clearly the conflict that was formerly taking place in his life. For this reason the terminology that Paul uses in these verses shows much Christian influence, though it is descriptive of his pre-Christian state."
KyleVonMour 3 years ago
I see. So does he hold that Paul was doing good when he was a Pharisee or that people have the desire to do good pre-regeneration? Verse 19 says, "For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing."(Rom 7:19)
...
LaneCh 3 years ago
Paul wanted to do good here. Either Paul was speaking of his experience before conversion calling the things that he wanted to do then (kill Christians, be self-righteous, etc.) good, he was saying that unbelievers desire God and to do good, or he was speaking of his post conversion state saying that the things he wants to do now (keep the law, love Jesus with all his heart, mind and strength, etc.) good. I think the latter is the only rational response.
LaneCh 3 years ago
That's a good question. I'm not sure, but here's what Lieter says. "The state of misery that he is experiencing eventuates in his coming to Christ. 'Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord'. From this it is evident that this man is being 'taught by God' and is 'hearing and learning from the Father.'" So, I guess he would hold that the man is not regenerated, but his conscience has been awakened to some degree so that he experiences some grief for his sin.
KyleVonMour 3 years ago
As I sit here with the book in front of me, I should point out that Lieter may only be trying to address what Romans 7 is teaching. He finishes his chapter with this. "There is no doubt that every true Christian has felt at times as if he were 'in the middle' of Romans 7. Even the truly Righteous man falls 7 times. Christian experience always involves excruciating defeat as part of the process of learning to 'walk in the spirit.'... (cont)
KyleVonMour 3 years ago
"The question before us is not, 'what do Christians often experience?' but "What is Paul teaching in Romans 7?" Thus, this all may be an academic exercise. Romans 7 is a difficult passage for me to understand, and reading your post reminded me of this book.
KyleVonMour 3 years ago
Well, I don't believe that anyone can do anything like that apart from the Spirit's regeneration. We know that the law is spiritual and sin is the breaking of the law. If one is desiring to do good and keep the law, it's something spiritual that's occurred namely regeneration. This is a little off to the side, but it's interesting how Jesus says that the Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin. Is everyone in the entire world convicted of their sin or could it be that world means elect?
LaneCh 3 years ago
Right. Thus, I think your original disagreement with the statement,
"If you have been born again, then it is unbiblical to believe that you are by nature "evil.""
was on the mark. I guess the point is that Romans 7 may not be the passage to use.
Regarding your second question, I don't really know. This is all "above my paygrade." Don't the Calvanists have a doctrine of a "common grace" that restrains the unregenerated from acting like the complete sinners that they are capable of?
KyleVonMour 3 years ago
The term "common grace" has many different meanings. It depends on who you're talking to about it sometimes as to what answer you'll get. I don't think it's called common grace, but there is a doctrine that God restrains everyone from being as bad as they possibly could be (doing evil deeds, etc.)
LaneCh 3 years ago
I think that's referred to as "restraining grace". That's the only way I've heard it spoken of anyways.
skalapunk 3 years ago
LOL- Pull out the Saltines and the grape juice and lets do our memorial funeral!!! LOL
TainoRebelde 3 years ago
Notice how the gentleman continues to try to reassure us that what he is teaching is BIBLICAL- as opposed to the rest of Christendom's soteriological misinterpretations.
What LACK OF HUMILITY in the midst of 2000 years of theology!
TainoRebelde 3 years ago
LOL-
The "London Confession of Faith" is what is called a "Particular" confession as opposed to a "General" confession which is Arminian. Needless to say, BOTH are Wrong-
In Lutheranism, our philosophy is not "This or that" but rather, "This AND that..."
We are called to listen to the WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD rather than place one text above the other.
Christ is the propitiation NOT ONLY FOR US but for THE WHOLE WORLD. God wants ALL MEN TO BE SAVED.
TainoRebelde 3 years ago
Regeneration and Conversion occur simultaneously
The hidden agenda in this video is a Calvinistic doctrine called "irresistible grace." In other words, a person cannot REJECT the call of God to repent and believe the Gospel.
This (by default) leads to double-predestination, in which God "chooses" certain individuals to be saved while others to be damned, or left in their sins and trespasses.
Calvinism is a complete distortion of the Biblical account.
TainoRebelde 3 years ago
TainoRebelde, with all due respect, you're very ignorant as to what Calvinism is. It seems that you're pretty knowledgeable on the straw men, though. Watch my video on double predestination to answer all of these straw men that you've raised.
LaneCh 3 years ago
FUNNY- since I am an ex-Southern Baptist pastor with a Masters Degree in Theology, and working on another Masters, in Divinity from Concordia Theological Seminary...
Perhaps, it is you who just made a straw man out of me?
I know plenty about Calvinism- but explain to me, how is it that you suppose (as a Calvinist) that Christ, though fully God and Man, is DIVISIBLE as to his nature, by keeping his corpus in heaven and his human soul and spirit on earth? Is that not dividing Christ?
TainoRebelde 3 years ago
This "order" for Salvation is purely CALVINISTIC- and RATIONALIST. The agenda is that man does NOT HAVE THE POWER to either REPENT or have FAITH.
The Lutheran understanding is that with the preaching of the Word, grace is accompanied so that the sinner CAN repent and believe- but THIS does NOT happen BEFORE Regeneration.
To place "conversion" before "regeneration" is simply a lie- a Calvinistic misinterpretation and misapplication of God's Providence.
TainoRebelde 3 years ago
This is funny, that while watching this video this is an advertisment on how too attract anything in 30 days. Too bad there wasn't a way to have the right ads on a specific video.
Shoots1978 3 years ago
I also have a question about the use of Gen 6:5 in point 6. I've heard Paul Washer blast people for using Rev 3:20 for evangelism, because Jesus was talking to the church. In exegeting Gen 6, therefore, should we not use the same method, since God was talking about the people that lived before the flood? If it is wrong to say that Jesus is making a general statement in Rev 3:20 on the basis of the original audience, what enables us to generalize Gen 6:5 in the same way?
KyleVonMour 3 years ago
Gen 8:21 is after the flood. Did God change man's heart by flooding the earth?
jpmckown 3 years ago
Jeremiah proclaimed, "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick;", which concurs with Gen6:5.
jpmckown 3 years ago
No, and I agree with the doctrine of total depravity. I'm simply wondering what principle of exegesis allows one to use Gen 6:5 to support total depravity and condemn the use of Rev 3:20 in evangelism. Is it the existence of Gen 8:21?
KyleVonMour 3 years ago
In Gen 6:5, it says that "And GOD saw that the wickedness OF MAN..." (that's a universal term not excluding anyone.)
In Rev. 3:1, it says "And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write;..." (that's giving the context of a specific group of people namely the church).
There's the big difference. They aren't in the same context as each other.
LaneCh 3 years ago
Jesus was talking to the church of Laodicea in 3:20.. Jesus said to the church at Smyrna; "Behold, the devil is about to cast some of yo into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation........"
Can I use this verse in evangelism too?
When Jesus clearly addresses a certain group of people, can we honestly sling His words around like He was referring to everyone?
jpmckown 3 years ago
No, we can't just sling his words around. However, I believe it is possible to be talking to a specific audience and yet be making a more general statement. For example, since Jesus was talking to Nicodemus in John 3:16, does that mean that John 3:16 only applies to Nicodemus? I don't mean to take this too far off the subject of the video, but I think it is relevant, because Rev 3:20 is a favorite of decisional regenerationists. (cont).
KyleVonMour 3 years ago
And I'm not trying to defend the abuses of decisional regeneration. I'm just not sure, though, that we should say that Rev 3:20 cannot be used in evangelism, merely on the basis that Jesus was talking to the church.
KyleVonMour 3 years ago