Added: 1 year ago
From: godlessmessiah
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  • Robert M Price is just incoherent. No historian denyies that Jesus existed in the time and place that history records and that he was crucified by the Roman authorites.

    The New Testament is the most accurately transmitted document from antiquity; it is the most widely transmitted document from antiquity. It is the earliest attested document from antiquity, by a factor of ten!

    Price appeals to fiction to create his own fiction.

    I wish people could be capable of rational reasoning.

  • @Surfxeo There exists at least one historian who "denies that Jesus existed" at all.

    I wish people could be capable of rational reasoning.

  • @TwistedLemniscate Robert M Price is not a historian. His background is theology and he does not work in any New Testament fields of research, nor does he teach. He only writes sensational books.

    Even Bart Ehrman asked him to produce any evidence for his views, which he failed to produce.

    The real question is why did you think he was a historian?

  • @Surfxeo My point is valid whether or not this guy is a historian.

  • Price's educational background is theology, not ancient history. Actual scholars with advanced degrees in the field do not promote such outlandish, revisionist ideas, apparently with the single exception of Richard Carrier, whose anti-religiosity and pseudoskepticism is evident in his disreputable, fringe "scholarship." Love Christianity or hate it, love Jesus of Nazareth or hate him--the theory that he never existed is about as reasonable as as the theory that the Holocaust is a Zionist myth.

  • I love this guy

  • He's got some facts wrong. Romulus wasn't killed in a battle, he was engulfed by a cloud in the presence of the senators. (He also wasn't a king.) Apollonius is post-Christian, and it baffles me that people use that in an attempt to find Pagan predecessors. Regarding the novels, he himself points out that they are 2nd century, that is, post-Gospel. I'm not a Christian, and don't think that Jesus rose from the dead, but this is just sad..

  • @Naiant He is not using Apollonius as an example of a "Pagan predecessor". He is saying that this is an example of a myth that people accept as an obvious myth, but then make a special pleading case for Jesus.

    Also regarding the last line, it's not "sad" to question people's sacred beliefs. This is exactly what we should do.

  • @terracottapie But he fails to show any logical connection between these pagan mythical archetypes, and a Jewish culture that abhorred idolatry and pagan beliefs as blasphemous crimes punishable by death. He does not provide a reason why 1st century Jews should suddenly start creating myths.

    Secondly, there is good evidence to show that what he's calling comparative is in fact irrelevant. For example, the Epistles of Paul predate all those 2nd century tomb stories he mentions.

  • @Satarack Half of the epistles weren't in fact written by paul but rather were written by an unknown corrupt person who claimed to be Paul hence those and more writings in the bible CANNOT be trusted as truth.

  • Comment removed

  • @ivlfounder

    When did dawlins say that? That doesn't sound like something he would exactly say. I imagine that he would grant something like that while making a more important point. i could be wrong, but I would just like to read it/see it for myself.

  • @Inclousid

    No Dawkins said a man named Jesus existed and he founded Christianity.

  • And, you are indeed driven to the Holy Bible. Once the new conscience leads you, you end up learning the word of God as it was written. This newfound knowledge and awareness cannot be boasted or forced upon anyone. You cannot force anyone to believe in God because it cannot possibly work. God reveals himself to those who are seeking him, knowingly or unknowingly. I didn't even know who he was until he revealed himself while I was on a stage playing in a band one night. My heart changed.

  • @highnote606

    Numbers 31:17-18 from your " Holy Bible". This is a command from the biblical "god" spoken by the sadistic zealot Moses character.

    "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." "Once the new conscience leads you". If your new consciousnesses lead you to this shit you must be a nut or a sadistic asshole.

  • All the circumstanstial evidence of Apollonius, Jesus, or whatever doesn't matter. God is realized at an individual, personal level. The enlightment leads to new knowledge and a drive towards knowing more. This sets a new path that separates one from the worldly perspective. A new perspective is born. A new awareness is born. The conscience becomes a living entity that guides us and tells us. I live this every day and life has proven meaningful in ways no atheist could ever know.

  • @highnote606 I'm sorry to say it, but your rhetoric about old Biblical characters is utterly nonsensical. Biblical dogma is not a 'new perspective' it is old one. The claim that this 'enlightenment leads to new knowledge' is downright false. The Enlightenment ESCAPED religious dogma and led to NEW knowledge. Finally the far more sinister idea of a 'new path that separates one from the worldly perspective', yes, it breaks one's hold on reality altogether and replaces it with a dangerous delusion.

  • LOL even Dawkins says Jesus existed as a person.

  • @ivlfounder

    Yes but Dawkins position is less substantiated on this subject.

  • @godlessmessiah

    Meaning?

  • @ivlfounder

    Theres more reason to believe this position over Dawkins.

  • @godlessmessiah

    However the vast majority of experts on the topic agree that Jesus existed as a historical person at the very least.

  • @ivlfounder

    Naturally this can change as more 'experts' come to be familiar with the evidence that all the essential parts of the Jesus story existed in fictional lierature before the alleged birht of Jesus.

  • @proudfootz

    It really is comical the way you look down your nose at people who have PHD's on a topic from the best Universities all because they dare to disagree with your fantasy.

  • @ivlfounder

    Never said I 'look down' on anyone.

    That's *your* fantasy.

    These people have their opinions, but I was talking about a matter of evidence which substantiates such a conclusion.

  • @proudfootz

    Your arrogance is truly priceless.

    Not only do you assume people with PHD's on a topic know less about it than you but that if they see this "evidence" you assume they don't already know of they will assuredly agree with you.

    You're living a lie.

  • @ivlfounder

    Nope. Not 'living a lie'

    That's more of your fantasy life intruding on the real world.

    Have already seen the 'evidence' that allegedly convinces some people that there was a person called Jesus upon whom Christ story was based.

    But since Christ story predates alleged Jesus it seems Jesus was based on Christ, not the other way around.

  • @proudfootz

    Let's see who to trust dozens of experts or some nutter on the net?

  • @ivlfounder

    Let's see... Robert Price is the expert, and you're the nutter?

  • @proudfootz

    No Price is rouge academic who is in disagreement with the finding of the vast majority in his field.

  • @ivlfounder

    Price may not have the support of the bible scholar industry, but that doesn't prove he is wrong.

    Inscience sometimes the 'rogue academics' lead the way - the truth is not determined by majority votes.

  • @proudfootz

    Ah so there's a conspiracy afoot is there?

  • @ivlfounder

    I never said anything about such a thing.

    There didn't have to be a 'conspiracy' against Copernicus for him to be the first to lead the way to understanding reality of Earth orbiting the Sun.

    No need for 'conspiracy' to explain why Alfred Wegener's theory of continental drift was rejected by a majority before becoming accepted by the majority.

  • @proudfootz

    You said price lack the support of "the bible scholar industry".

  • @ivlfounder

    That these people disagree with Price and other scholars does nothing to show Price's thesis is wrong.

    It need not be a conspiracy either.

  • @proudfootz

    Exactly.

    Its also important to note that the majority in this field are not actually historians themselves, rather theologians, many of which have the predetermined position that Jesus had to existed, rather than a conclusion notable evidence. In historical terms theres very little in determining the validity of the Jesus story so Robert Price isn't actually that much of a rogue either..

  • @godlessmessiah

    There more I read about the ideas floating around which predate the alleged lifetime of a man called Jesus the more reasonable it seems that since the myth already existed there was no need for the man to exist to explain why people would have such ideas.

  • @proudfootz

    So the supposed industry doesn't have an interest in concealing the truth?

  • @ivlfounder

    If you say so - just as the people who believed the sun orbited the earth might have an 'interest' in concealing the truth they need not engage in a 'conspiracy' to oppose Copernican theory that the earth orbits the sun.

  • @proudfootz

    No I don't say so the question is do you?

  • @ivlfounder

    I haven'r said so.

    What I do say is that it seems the Jesus Myth hypothesis is a comprehensive theoeory which explains many puzzling problems created by assuming there was a man named Jesus upon whom all these legends are supposedly based.

  • @ivlfounder Yes, Jesus probably existed as a PERSON. His name likely was Joshua. But Jesus as a god, or incarnate of YHWH? Now THAT'S a myth!

  • @ivlfounder

    No !

    All he has said, at least in the last 20 years, is that there is no peticular reason to asume that the Jesus myth wassent based on a real person. And then its the story of how 1 feather turned into 10 chickens.

    He is absolutely spot on. That is the most likely senario.

    But thats it, its just what seems most likely to have happend, and it may be wrong, and Jesus may have been an utter fabrication.

    Until a workable timemashine is invented, that is all we can reasonable asume

  • @dinomand

    "uh uh uh I take that back Jesus existed".

    that's what Dawkins said when confronted with the facts.

  • @ivlfounder This is a bad argument. Just because I agree with Dawkins about a lot of things doesn't mean he is right about everything.

  • @terracottapie

    Why do you doubt Dawkins on this matter?

  • @ivlfounder It's not about "doubting Dawkins". That's not a good way of phrasing it. More like, I looked at the same evidence as he did and came to a different conclusion.

    (Well sort of. It's hard to say what Dawkins thinks because in his book he said Jesus probably doesn't exist, which I agree with. Then sort of recanted.)

  • @terracottapie

    Why do you doubt Dawkins is right about this?

  • @ivlfounder Because there is no contemporary evidence to confirm that Jesus existed.

    All evidence comes from the Bible (an unreliable source), and other writings from decades after he supposedly died.

  • @terracottapie Were that a problem wouldn't Dawkins bring it up?

  • @ivlfounder He did bring it up. In his book.

    Do YOU think it's a problem that there isn't a single word written about Jesus until 40 years after he supposedly died?

  • @terracottapie

    If I am not mistaken Dawkins recanted that stance.

  • @ivlfounder Dawkins is a smart guy but he is not an expert in History but im not sure this guy is either. i dont even know who this is hehe

  • @keggerous

    Dawkins is known for pretending his is an authority on subjects he knows little about.

    I wonder what he learned that forced him to admit Jesus existed least as a person?

  • @ivlfounder No, Dawkins thinks perhaps that an historical figure may have been the prototype for the mythical figure of the gospels.

  • @ivlfounder Existing as a person and being the "son of God" are two entirely different things.

  • @jake44514

    and?

  • @ivlfounder Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Saying a man could have existed that was named Jesus, who cares? So he did, big deal. Say a man existed that was God as his own son that came to earth to sacrifice himself to himself to forgive a sin that never happened, where is the extraordinary evidence for that man? Sounds ridiculous to me and I see no reason to believe those claims over any other religious claim.

  • @MrBigInfidel

    "who cares"?

    Oh I don't know maybe the millions of Christians and Muslims who have said for ages he existed and the thousands of atheists who have been saying for decades he's an fabrication based on earlier myths?

  • So you think that our Maker would not visit us.

    You are wrong. We do have a Maker and He would visit us.

    We should expect that our Maker would be able to do amazing things.

    watch?v=qZev7hb40uk

  • /watch?v=bGfOTorHDVU

  • Comment removed

  • What do you think about religion, and birthrates? Also, what do you think about religion and it's moral influence over people who don't tend to think deeply? Lately, I've been suspecting that religion might actually have an important role in society, as they breed more (keeping the western society going), and keep the uneducated\untrained reason to be good without thinking about it. The problem is when they go too far in it. What do you think?

  • @TheMathKing

    1/2

    1) I would say that there is a strong correlation between intelligence (a lack thereof), high birth rates and probability with being religious, in a 'chicken or the egg' scenario.

    2) It can be argued both ways, a gigantic number of Issues with equality have stemmed from generally good people who have gained discriminatory views due to religious perspectives, many non-religious people are also limited in thinking skills, but lack problems with being good people...

  • 2/2

    ..It really comes down to the old theistic rhetoric of 'if people didn't have god, they'd just be immoral rapists and murders', this is a perspective I'm not inclined to believe is accurate in the slightest.

    My personal conclusion of this argument can be summed up as 'religion is a crutch' 'religion takes credit for good deeds' and 'for good people to do bad things, that takes religion'.

  • 3/3

    In regards to population numbers, this is also very subjective to opinion that can't be covered in a few comment boxes, So I can sum the key words here:

    'Africa' 'condoms' 'abortion' 'population growth' 'earths resources' 'national IQ' 'political voting choice' 'natural selection' 'idiocracy' and 'referring back to point (1) in the first response message.

  • @godlessmessiah It's not that religion may cause good, it's that religion may justify being good. People need to justify and understand why they do the instinctual good deeds they feel compelled to do, for them to extend that good to a more serious level (I suspect, anyways). Religion may be a good crutch for some people for that purpose.

  • I've never heard of that guy before, but this was pretty cool. Great upload.

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