@dagoose109 I should add, though, that in ONE sense nothing is outside the ULTIMATE will of God. I do believe the world has never been outside of God's control or outside his reach. He could call all of existence outside himself into non-existence if he wanted to.
It's just that within the little sandbox that is the Universe, God did create free agents using real free will to make real decisions, including whether or not to live in love towards God and each other.
@Hrugnir---Exactly. When we discuss God it is important to clarify whether we are speaking of the Absolute Macrocosm or the Relative Microcosm of the little sandbox on the shore. We are free agents in this relative physical plane with an infinite number of possibilities and potentials to choose from because we "appear' to be separate from the Absolute. However, in Absolute Reality every single possibility and potential outcome is already accounted for. We just can't see it from here.
Boyd answers all of this in this very video. 01:45 onwards.
I don't first and foremost believe in a particular doctrine about the Bible.
I first and foremost believe that God was perfectly revealed in Jesus Christ forgiving and praying for his enemies while dying on the cross. That's the core, the rest comes in addition to that.
Now, if I make Jesus my Lord, I can't just decide to throw away the fact that Jesus' entire life was set in the grand narrative of the OT. I have to deal with it.
As a non-Christian, I cannot help but wonder why anyone would even keep the Old Testament in the Bible since it is in direct conflict with Jesus. Personally, I would not even choose to read a book filled with stories of genocide, murder, infanticide, and animal sacrifice----especially when they are attributed to God. The Old Testament and parts of the New Testament seem to be bearing false human witness to The Infinite Supreme Being.
@Hrugnir ---If you consider the Trinity to be One God, and the Bible to be the "Word of God", then Jesus authored both the OT and NT. If you believe in an Unchanging God as Christianity claims, then how do you explain the complete metamorphosis and personality change of God from the OT to the NT?
@dagoose109 The Bible is only the "Word" of God in a secondary meaning (Jesus is the Word of God, John 1), I don't think it is the writing of God as such, but rather it was written by very human authors who were inspired by the Holy Spirit while writing.
Also, I believe in progressive revelation. God was, in a way, more "hidden" and also more restricted in the OT. Not in the sense that he was less powerful, but in that he accomodated to the culture more. Google "Boyd Wrath and Love" for more.
@Hrugnir----There are 30,000 to 40,000 sects of Christianity and 27 versions of the Bible, so the number of interpretations is astronomical. Each and every Christian believes they are a "True Christian" and that their interpretation of Scripture is the only true one. Personally, I think the Bible is nothing more than Bronze Age humans opinions of God.
@dagoose109 Well, I don't believe it is my specific interpretation that makes me a Christian. I believe, like the absolute majority of all Christians through all ages, that Jesus Christ is God, and that HE is my salvation. Whether or not I interpret the Genesis Flood literally or whether or not I believe baptism should preferably be performed on infants or adults, doesn't really matter in the big picture.
@Hrugnir---I do not deny that there is a Spiritual aspect to Christianity, and I think that it is the Big Picture and the most important part of it. All I am saying is that the Bible and Christian Dogma are not spiritually sane to me. Whenever I hear Holier than Thou Christians claiming that God is on their side and their's is the only true religion they appear incredibly ignorant of God.
And I agree with you. I don't think Jesus was among those people, though. He confronted hypocrisy, nationalism and religious self-righteousness, and lived a life of love even unto death, forgiving and praying for the very people crucifying him to His last breaths. That's the God in whose hands I put my life, and whom I try to emulate with my life.
@Hrugnir---The word "Spiritual" is difficult to put into physical language and words. By "Spiritual" I mean the intangible reality which transcends the material dimension. The Wholeness of Divine Love and Oneness of Being. Everything is infused with Holy Spirit, yet it cannot be described or contained in any book. Personally, I think that if Jesus did return he would reject Christianity and the Bible as well as all the other religions of earth.
@dagoose109 I see. By spiritual, I mean something that transcends physicality as well, so at a simple metaphysical level, we might agree there. I also agree that God is omnipresent, and that his loving Holy Spirit works in all places, and wants to envelop and dwell in each of us.
And so do many, many Christians. Just be aware of this. Our actual point of (respectful) disagreement, is that I believe in a very personal Creator, who albeit transcendent, became incarnate. See next comment.
@dagoose109 I believe in the Incarnation, not because God is so simple that he might as well be physical, but as the greatest mystery. I believe that He who should be unknowable, yet infinitely intelligent, found a way to literally become human. And so, Jesus showed us what God is really like, as well as what humanity should be like.
He did in a way come to abolish "religion", and introduce personal relationship with Himself as the norm. Christianity is primarily lived through Spirit, not Law.
@dagoose109 Finally, the perhaps most controversial thing about Christian faith is the concept of sin and evil.
It's hard to say what evil is or how it started, but the Holocaust shows me that it exists. It's been said that the goal of the universe is Love, and Love requires Free will. So, if humans are to choose between loving or not loving God, they must be able to choose for or against His will. The choice to choose against Him was what sent this world into shit.
@Hrugnir---I understand what you are saying, but I disagree on many levels. Your first premise is that we as humans are capable of knowing exactly what God's Will is. To this I would say that we do not--- except as we would imagine it. Secondly, everything both good and bad are in perfect alignment with God whether we see it that way or not through our earthly eyes. Otherwise we are Judging God by our human standards. In other words I feel that we are in Perfect Hands period.
@dagoose109 The thing I don't get with the argument "We can't know X about God" or "God is too big for that to be possible", is that such an argument IS a statement about God. If you believe that God is too transcendent to interact personally with human beings, where did you get that knowledge from? If you believe God is too transcendent to literally be incarnate or literally make a message understandable to human beings, what message did you interpret to state that fact about God?
@Hrugnir---Great point! When we are engaged in discussing the Intangible, we inevitably use tangible terms and concepts. If I state that God is completely transcendent of any human conceptualization, and can only be perceived through one's heart/soul I have indeed stated a belief and concept. However, I cannot validate, prove, or cling to that because the Reality is always greater than the idea of that reality. I question all beliefs including my own, and I really have none to defend.
@dagoose109 Basically this is what I'm saying: My view of God states that He is so great, intelligent and so loving that he lowered himself to our level so we could come closer to His level, and found a way of getting His message across to us. The creator of human beings surely knows how to communicate higher truths to those very same human beings.
Of course, every argument has presumptions, and mine is that love requires duality. Monism (which you seem to believe in) thus excludes love for me.
@Hrugnir---Because God to me is Everything, yet no specific thing the only accurate description I could apply to the Divine Presence is through negation; God is not this, God is not that. I could never even begin to imagine what God actually IS because the human mind just cannot wrap itself around that. It is like trying to imagine Infinity or Eternity---eventually the mind just has to give up. It is very much like Zen to me.
@Hrugnir---Yes I am definitely Monistic. Love in separation creates an incredible feeling of longing for dissolving back into the Beloved Wholeness or Holiness of God. Even if it takes some egos millions of years to awaken and remember, eventually all waves of separation return to their source. Once back in Absolute Oneness beyond time and space, those millions of years will simply be a blink---a Holy Instant so to speak. It is an amazing journey for us all.
@dagoose109 And once we have arrived at the fullness, what? The end of consciousness?
That's the thing, I do long for unity with God and going become more like Him, but I don't like not being an I anymore. I do believe in dying from myself and my selfish passions. But that is not the same as saying God wishes to annihilate personhood, which Eastern monism (Buddhism and Hinduism) implies, at least.
@Hrugnir---Free Will is an illusion of being incarnate in this physical dimension of apparent separation from God. In the Absolute Reality of Divine Providence there is only One Will period. Love is not a choice, but rather our true nature as part of God. The nature of this physical dimension is one of duality because it would not exist without the polarity of opposites. Spiritually we know this, but being incarnate here we temporarily forget as we become lost in the material dimension.
@Hrugnir---God created all that is---good and bad, personal and impersonal. Isaiah 45:7. I believe as you have stated that True Christianity is about Spirit and not dogmatic doctrine. Man cannot serve two masters--every ego chooses itself before God. Even as a Non-Christian the Jesus I envision in my heart and soul has almost nothing to do with the Bible and Christianity. You sound very open-minded compared to the Fundamentalists within your fold! I respect your discourse.
@dagoose109 This is where it seems we radically disagree: I do not think God created evil as an actuality. I believe he created the possibility of evil (which is by definition "the non-will of God"), only because free will entails the possibility of obeying and disobeying God's will/norms. He created free will because the goal of creation is Love, and love cannot be forced.
If God did not give us a real free will, love is impossible. Without love, I'd rather not exist.
@Hrugnir---Of course Free Will cannot be forced, but in an Absolute sense there really is no such thing as Free Will to begin with. In this dimension of space-time relativity we only "appear" to have Free Will and Choice in a Field of Infinite Possibility, but in the bigger Universal Picture everything past present and future has already happened in the Eternal Now. As God is the First Cause of all that is, everything is perfectly pre-determined. Only God's Will exists.
@Hrugnir---Regarding the issue of good and evil, if humans were suddenly removed from earth would there still be evil? Is evil simply a human judgment of the world? Is nature good and evil or simply just being nature? Could evil even exist independently outside the control of an Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient God? "Nothing is evil lest thinking make it so"....Shakespeare
"And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering." - Judges 11:30-31
"And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter. And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back." Judges 11:34-35
"And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel, That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year." - Judges 11:39-40
"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." Deuteronomy 22:28-29
"But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an EVIL SPIRIT FROM THE LORD troubled him." - 1 Samuel 16:14
"the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee." 1 King 22:23 & 2 Chronicles 18:22.
"And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet" - Ezekiel 14:9
"God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" - 2 Thessalonians 2:11.
@dagoose109 I should add, though, that in ONE sense nothing is outside the ULTIMATE will of God. I do believe the world has never been outside of God's control or outside his reach. He could call all of existence outside himself into non-existence if he wanted to.
It's just that within the little sandbox that is the Universe, God did create free agents using real free will to make real decisions, including whether or not to live in love towards God and each other.
Hrugnir 1 year ago
@Hrugnir---Exactly. When we discuss God it is important to clarify whether we are speaking of the Absolute Macrocosm or the Relative Microcosm of the little sandbox on the shore. We are free agents in this relative physical plane with an infinite number of possibilities and potentials to choose from because we "appear' to be separate from the Absolute. However, in Absolute Reality every single possibility and potential outcome is already accounted for. We just can't see it from here.
dagoose109 1 year ago
Boyd answers all of this in this very video. 01:45 onwards.
I don't first and foremost believe in a particular doctrine about the Bible.
I first and foremost believe that God was perfectly revealed in Jesus Christ forgiving and praying for his enemies while dying on the cross. That's the core, the rest comes in addition to that.
Now, if I make Jesus my Lord, I can't just decide to throw away the fact that Jesus' entire life was set in the grand narrative of the OT. I have to deal with it.
Hrugnir 1 year ago
As a non-Christian, I cannot help but wonder why anyone would even keep the Old Testament in the Bible since it is in direct conflict with Jesus. Personally, I would not even choose to read a book filled with stories of genocide, murder, infanticide, and animal sacrifice----especially when they are attributed to God. The Old Testament and parts of the New Testament seem to be bearing false human witness to The Infinite Supreme Being.
dagoose109 1 year ago
@dagoose109 First of all, you're reading selectively. The majority of the OT portrays an unfathomably loving God who is faithful and trustworthy.
Second of all, the main reason why the Church continued using the OT is because Jesus and the apostles saw it as inspired Scripture...
Hrugnir 1 year ago
@Hrugnir ---If you consider the Trinity to be One God, and the Bible to be the "Word of God", then Jesus authored both the OT and NT. If you believe in an Unchanging God as Christianity claims, then how do you explain the complete metamorphosis and personality change of God from the OT to the NT?
dagoose109 1 year ago
@dagoose109 The Bible is only the "Word" of God in a secondary meaning (Jesus is the Word of God, John 1), I don't think it is the writing of God as such, but rather it was written by very human authors who were inspired by the Holy Spirit while writing.
Also, I believe in progressive revelation. God was, in a way, more "hidden" and also more restricted in the OT. Not in the sense that he was less powerful, but in that he accomodated to the culture more. Google "Boyd Wrath and Love" for more.
Hrugnir 1 year ago
@Hrugnir----There are 30,000 to 40,000 sects of Christianity and 27 versions of the Bible, so the number of interpretations is astronomical. Each and every Christian believes they are a "True Christian" and that their interpretation of Scripture is the only true one. Personally, I think the Bible is nothing more than Bronze Age humans opinions of God.
dagoose109 1 year ago
@dagoose109 Well, I don't believe it is my specific interpretation that makes me a Christian. I believe, like the absolute majority of all Christians through all ages, that Jesus Christ is God, and that HE is my salvation. Whether or not I interpret the Genesis Flood literally or whether or not I believe baptism should preferably be performed on infants or adults, doesn't really matter in the big picture.
So I don't see your point.
Hrugnir 1 year ago
@Hrugnir---I do not deny that there is a Spiritual aspect to Christianity, and I think that it is the Big Picture and the most important part of it. All I am saying is that the Bible and Christian Dogma are not spiritually sane to me. Whenever I hear Holier than Thou Christians claiming that God is on their side and their's is the only true religion they appear incredibly ignorant of God.
dagoose109 1 year ago
@dagoose109 What do you mean by "Spiritual"?
And I agree with you. I don't think Jesus was among those people, though. He confronted hypocrisy, nationalism and religious self-righteousness, and lived a life of love even unto death, forgiving and praying for the very people crucifying him to His last breaths. That's the God in whose hands I put my life, and whom I try to emulate with my life.
Hrugnir 1 year ago
@Hrugnir---The word "Spiritual" is difficult to put into physical language and words. By "Spiritual" I mean the intangible reality which transcends the material dimension. The Wholeness of Divine Love and Oneness of Being. Everything is infused with Holy Spirit, yet it cannot be described or contained in any book. Personally, I think that if Jesus did return he would reject Christianity and the Bible as well as all the other religions of earth.
dagoose109 1 year ago
@dagoose109 I see. By spiritual, I mean something that transcends physicality as well, so at a simple metaphysical level, we might agree there. I also agree that God is omnipresent, and that his loving Holy Spirit works in all places, and wants to envelop and dwell in each of us.
And so do many, many Christians. Just be aware of this. Our actual point of (respectful) disagreement, is that I believe in a very personal Creator, who albeit transcendent, became incarnate. See next comment.
Hrugnir 1 year ago
@dagoose109 I believe in the Incarnation, not because God is so simple that he might as well be physical, but as the greatest mystery. I believe that He who should be unknowable, yet infinitely intelligent, found a way to literally become human. And so, Jesus showed us what God is really like, as well as what humanity should be like.
He did in a way come to abolish "religion", and introduce personal relationship with Himself as the norm. Christianity is primarily lived through Spirit, not Law.
Hrugnir 1 year ago
@dagoose109 Finally, the perhaps most controversial thing about Christian faith is the concept of sin and evil.
It's hard to say what evil is or how it started, but the Holocaust shows me that it exists. It's been said that the goal of the universe is Love, and Love requires Free will. So, if humans are to choose between loving or not loving God, they must be able to choose for or against His will. The choice to choose against Him was what sent this world into shit.
That's why Jesus saves us.
Hrugnir 1 year ago
@Hrugnir---I understand what you are saying, but I disagree on many levels. Your first premise is that we as humans are capable of knowing exactly what God's Will is. To this I would say that we do not--- except as we would imagine it. Secondly, everything both good and bad are in perfect alignment with God whether we see it that way or not through our earthly eyes. Otherwise we are Judging God by our human standards. In other words I feel that we are in Perfect Hands period.
dagoose109 1 year ago
@dagoose109 The thing I don't get with the argument "We can't know X about God" or "God is too big for that to be possible", is that such an argument IS a statement about God. If you believe that God is too transcendent to interact personally with human beings, where did you get that knowledge from? If you believe God is too transcendent to literally be incarnate or literally make a message understandable to human beings, what message did you interpret to state that fact about God?
Hrugnir 1 year ago
@Hrugnir---Great point! When we are engaged in discussing the Intangible, we inevitably use tangible terms and concepts. If I state that God is completely transcendent of any human conceptualization, and can only be perceived through one's heart/soul I have indeed stated a belief and concept. However, I cannot validate, prove, or cling to that because the Reality is always greater than the idea of that reality. I question all beliefs including my own, and I really have none to defend.
dagoose109 1 year ago
@dagoose109 Basically this is what I'm saying: My view of God states that He is so great, intelligent and so loving that he lowered himself to our level so we could come closer to His level, and found a way of getting His message across to us. The creator of human beings surely knows how to communicate higher truths to those very same human beings.
Of course, every argument has presumptions, and mine is that love requires duality. Monism (which you seem to believe in) thus excludes love for me.
Hrugnir 1 year ago
@Hrugnir---Because God to me is Everything, yet no specific thing the only accurate description I could apply to the Divine Presence is through negation; God is not this, God is not that. I could never even begin to imagine what God actually IS because the human mind just cannot wrap itself around that. It is like trying to imagine Infinity or Eternity---eventually the mind just has to give up. It is very much like Zen to me.
dagoose109 1 year ago
@Hrugnir---Yes I am definitely Monistic. Love in separation creates an incredible feeling of longing for dissolving back into the Beloved Wholeness or Holiness of God. Even if it takes some egos millions of years to awaken and remember, eventually all waves of separation return to their source. Once back in Absolute Oneness beyond time and space, those millions of years will simply be a blink---a Holy Instant so to speak. It is an amazing journey for us all.
dagoose109 1 year ago
@dagoose109 And once we have arrived at the fullness, what? The end of consciousness?
That's the thing, I do long for unity with God and going become more like Him, but I don't like not being an I anymore. I do believe in dying from myself and my selfish passions. But that is not the same as saying God wishes to annihilate personhood, which Eastern monism (Buddhism and Hinduism) implies, at least.
Hrugnir 1 year ago
@Hrugnir---Free Will is an illusion of being incarnate in this physical dimension of apparent separation from God. In the Absolute Reality of Divine Providence there is only One Will period. Love is not a choice, but rather our true nature as part of God. The nature of this physical dimension is one of duality because it would not exist without the polarity of opposites. Spiritually we know this, but being incarnate here we temporarily forget as we become lost in the material dimension.
dagoose109 1 year ago
@Hrugnir---God created all that is---good and bad, personal and impersonal. Isaiah 45:7. I believe as you have stated that True Christianity is about Spirit and not dogmatic doctrine. Man cannot serve two masters--every ego chooses itself before God. Even as a Non-Christian the Jesus I envision in my heart and soul has almost nothing to do with the Bible and Christianity. You sound very open-minded compared to the Fundamentalists within your fold! I respect your discourse.
dagoose109 1 year ago
@dagoose109 This is where it seems we radically disagree: I do not think God created evil as an actuality. I believe he created the possibility of evil (which is by definition "the non-will of God"), only because free will entails the possibility of obeying and disobeying God's will/norms. He created free will because the goal of creation is Love, and love cannot be forced.
If God did not give us a real free will, love is impossible. Without love, I'd rather not exist.
Hrugnir 1 year ago
@Hrugnir---Of course Free Will cannot be forced, but in an Absolute sense there really is no such thing as Free Will to begin with. In this dimension of space-time relativity we only "appear" to have Free Will and Choice in a Field of Infinite Possibility, but in the bigger Universal Picture everything past present and future has already happened in the Eternal Now. As God is the First Cause of all that is, everything is perfectly pre-determined. Only God's Will exists.
dagoose109 1 year ago
@Hrugnir---Regarding the issue of good and evil, if humans were suddenly removed from earth would there still be evil? Is evil simply a human judgment of the world? Is nature good and evil or simply just being nature? Could evil even exist independently outside the control of an Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient God? "Nothing is evil lest thinking make it so"....Shakespeare
dagoose109 1 year ago
@dagoose109 Thank you for your compliment - you sound like a pleasant person to discuss with compared to many on YouTube :)
PS. Eventually, PMs might be a better place to continue this conversation.
Hrugnir 1 year ago
"And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering." - Judges 11:30-31
MisterBoswell 2 years ago
"And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter. And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back." Judges 11:34-35
MisterBoswell 2 years ago
"And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel, That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year." - Judges 11:39-40
MisterBoswell 2 years ago
"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." Deuteronomy 22:28-29
MisterBoswell 2 years ago
"But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an EVIL SPIRIT FROM THE LORD troubled him." - 1 Samuel 16:14
"the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee." 1 King 22:23 & 2 Chronicles 18:22.
"And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet" - Ezekiel 14:9
"God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" - 2 Thessalonians 2:11.
MisterBoswell 2 years ago
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7
"shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" - Amos 3:6
"And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people." - Exodus 32:14
"And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil" - 1 Chronicles 21:15
MisterBoswell 2 years ago