I dont understand the fighting between allies concerning that topic...but somehow typical for winners...they won because they have done it right...who of the winners was more right who was less right??? well, fact is..the Merlin is an extraordinary engine and the Mustang wonderful designed in aerodynamics...so the combination did the success...and sorry to mention it but the guy who designed the Mustang was Edgar Schmued, born in Germany.
Dont get me wrong he was an american as many germans are
On the subject of Rolls royce engines, who knew that the JU 87 Stuka protypes, built secretly in Sweden, had Rolls Royce engines? How's that for sickening? Also, as somebody mentioned below, the British gave asdic/sonar to the USA.
@noonsight2010 lol. that's funny...........i'll let you make a fool of yourself a while longer and just shortly i'll give you what the REAL story of british input into the P-51 was! Better scramble and do some research................no folklore(national pride) to be included!;)
@lander4545 Not funny. Just TRUE. You have no knowledge of the subject and you do not even seem to know there were several marks P51. You are extremely ignorant even with all the people on here telling you the historical facts.
@tanamerdadodemonho I was studying and assessing WW11 before you were born! lol. The best ALL AROUND plane to come out of WW11 was the American built P-51D with the American build Packard V-1650-7 engine which was developed from Britain's Rolls Royce Merlin engine..................................Period!
@lander4545 ....do you spend your whole life defending the mustang.....you need to get a life if thats all you have to do.........without the input of the British the mustang would never have been what it was.......I know it....and you know it!!!!!!..anyway the best all round aircraft of WW2 was the Mosquito...Period!!!!!
@Aussiephil99 "do you spend your whole life defending the mustang"Yes I do when it comes to those who want change history based on folklore! What I stated is 100% unequivocally true and "you know it"....hurts a little doesn't?? I've spent alot of money to get the documentation and the resources to prove it. Why?just to shut up the coffee shop consultant's like yourself who perpetuating the lies! Edmund Schmued lead the design team for the P-51 Mustang at North American Aviation....
@Aussiephil99 with NO British input!........period! The American built Packard V-1650-7 engine was an improved,updated AND upgrated engine based on the Rolls Royce Merlin..........Period! Prove it to me if I'm wrong! Tell a big lie loud enough and often enough the simpletons (you) will believe it! ;)
@lander4545 ...regarding your no British input comment.....had British engineers not put a merlin in a mustang in the first place the Americans could not have made the 'minor' modifications to it they wanted. Basically the P-51 was a dud until it was redesigned by BRITISH engineers and given a ROLLS ROYCE engine.
@Aussiephil99 Here is the UNBIASED list of the top 10 aircraft of WW11. 1. North American P-51 Mustang 2. Focke-Wulf Fw-190 3. Supermarine Spitfire 4. Messerschmitt Bf-109 5. Mitsubishi A6 M Zero 6. Junkers 87 Stuka 7. Ilyushin-2 Shturmovik 8. Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress 9.Vought F4U Corsair 10.Messerschmitt 262. A "Mosquito" is what you swat on hot humid days! lol. ;)
@lander4545 .....regarding your UNBIASED list of top 10 aircraft......who the fuck are you to judge.........anyway. The Mosquito was a suberb aircraft as anybody who actually know anything about aircraft knows!!!b The Lancaster was a far superior bomber than the B-17.....the B-17 in Britsih terms was basically a light bomber given the pathetic bomb load it carried. As for the Ju-87....it was rubbish.......it was massacred on the western front.
@lander4545 ....might I suggest you read some books that aren't authored by Americans and written purely about American aircraft!!!........you might learn something......by the way depending on the criteria you use...far and away the best all round piston engined allied fighter of WW2 was the Hawker Tempest.......matched perhaps only by the Focke Wulf Ta-152
@Aussiephil99 O.K. Hear goes a book ;) "Building The P-51 Mustang" by Micheal O'Leary. This book was printed and distributed in the U.K. and Europe by Cre'cy Publishing Ltd. of Manchester, United Kingdom. Dude, I have all the facts about the P-51 at my fingertips in my office. Folklore and documented history are at different ends of the spectrum so if your going to take me on about the P-51 Mustang you better get your oars in the water! You learn from the facts not your ego! ;)
@lander4545 .....I don't deny you may have read a book about P-51s..so what. Without the decision to initially put the merlin in a mustang it never would have been the aircraft it was...you seem intent on giving the British absolutely no credit whatsoever for the evolution of the mustang. Your knowledge of aircraft generally must be questioned if you consider the Ju-87 a better combat aircraft than a Lancaster, or Mosquito......or Typhoon for that matter
@Aussiephil99 "I don't deny you may have read a book about P-51s..so what." Nice attempt at marginalizing my historical and factual knowledge of the P-51 Mustang,even from the British perspective in the book I mentioned! (did you read the book?) I give the British credit for needing a plane to replace the faults of the Spitfire. But the British did not design even the initial Mustang which was designated the NA-73X. That credit goes to North American design engineer Edmund Schmued.
@lander4545 ...this is where you are indicating what an idiot you are...the mustang was never designed to 'replace the faults of the spitfire' It was designed as Britain suspected they may have a shortage of front tline fighters. The initial Mustangs delivered to the British weren't up to the job so were used in army cooperation. Until the BRITISH modified the airframe and put a Merlin in it...the rest is history....much of the credit for it success must go to the BRITISH!!!!!!!!!
@Aussiephil99 Here is one fault of the British Spitfire. The spitfire was a defensive weapon because of it's short range and could NOT take the fight to the enemy. On the other hand American built P-51 Mustang with it's drop tanks was an offensive weapon because of it's long range. And don't forget that the original Mustang was built to BRITISH specs! After numerous modifications we have the best all around fighter of WW11, the American built P-51 Mustang ...................
@Aussiephil99 ............with the highly modified "from the original specs" American built Packard 1650-V-7 engine. And yes the Mustang was designed to replace the faults of the Spitfire! This is unadulterated knowlege to those who have studied the history of the P-51 Mustang. The only reason the British wanted the Mustang was because they couldn't get any P-40's from Curtiss-Wright because there production lines were maxed out and couldn't produce enough to fill British orders.
@lander4545 ...I repeat the Mustang was NOT designed to replace the faults of the spitfire. If Britain wanted to design an aircraft to replace the Spitfire they were quite capable of doing that themselves. Nearly all American aircraft at that time (1940) were hopeless by European standards.......and throughout WW2...Britain and Germany continued to be the two most technologically advanced airforces in terms of aircraft design....jet propulsion....radar..etc
@Aussiephil99 O.K. if the Mustang was not designed to replace the faults of the Mustang then why did Britain want a new fighter? Why didn't Britain design it themselves if they were quite capable of it as you say? They could have just stayed with the Spitfire. You researched and found out that i'm correct didn't you?lol. If American aircraft in 1940 were hopeless by "European standards" as you say then why did Britain want to purchase the P-40 Tomahawk.??
@lander4545 .Britain needed America's help because they were desperate..they were at war...the US wasn't. British factories were being bombed. The Spitfire was produced throughout the war and was a superb fighter.....later versions were every bit as good as the P-51, in a skilled pilots hand it could easily out 'dogfight' a P-51. The P-40 was possibly a similar level to the Hurricane...the only reason Britian wanted them is because they couldn't produce enough of their own aircraft.
@Aussiephil99 O.K. If the P-51 Mustang didn't solve the faults of the Spitfire as you say,then why didn't Britain license North American Aviation to produce the Spitfire? There were also later versions of the P-51 built. The P-51-K is one example. But that still doesn't answer your rant of, "much of the credit for it success must go to the BRITISH!!!!!!!!!"
@Aussiephil99" ....might I suggest you read some books that aren't authored by Americans and written purely about American aircraft!!!........" O.K. asshole I gave you the British authored book,"Building the P-51 Mustang" as one of my many references you air headed mother fucker. Now because your such a fucking asshole I will list all of the faults of the shit Spitfire that the American built P-51 Mustang solved. If you can't stand the heat next time try shutting your fuckin mouth!
@lander4545 ...yep sounds like that's the only book you've ever read. You are a typical uneducated yank....you know fuck all. Your country came into WW2 in the last 5 minutes had very light casualties...and then tried to take all the credit.
@lander4545 ...I really find it hard to believe that someone who seems to know abit about the P-51 knows so little about every other aircraft. Britain was well in advance of the US technologically in 1940 and most certainly didn't need the US to build them better aircraft!!!!!!! If you truly believe the P-51 was meant to address the spitfire shortcomings you are one hell of a seriously misinformed American idiot!!!!!!
@Aussiephil99 You would like me to wander off in another direction because so far I have proved you wrong on EVERYTHING! Do you agree that one of the faults that the American made P-51 solved with the Spitfire is that it was a defensive weapon and couldn't take the fight to the enemy? If i'm an idiot it's because your CONTAGIOUS! ;)
@lander4545 ....you haven't proven me wrong on anything!!! I just can't be bothered argueing with another American on youtube who gets his knowledge of WW2 from the history channel and hollywood movies.
@Aussiephil99 "....you haven't proven me wrong on anything!!! " That's because your another dellusional Brit that can stand the fact that without the American's you would have NO doubt lost the fight against Germany. You declared war on them and subsequently got your asses handed to you. You would like to change history by going on Youtube to try and spread more of your folklore! Ain't gonna happen shit for brains! ;)
@Aussiephil99 The Rolls Royce Merlin made by Britain was an engineering disaster compared to the upgrades and improvments made by the American company Packard. One fault the P-51 Mustang and Packard couldn't solve on the British made Rolls Royce Merlin was the fact that it was liquid cooled. One piece of shrapnel and you were history. The faults that the P-51 Mustang solved over the British made Spitfire are 1. New engine bearing (that was HUGE!) 2.New supercharger ........
@Aussiephil99 .....3.New pressure carburetor (before this change by Packard the British made spitfire would actually STALL in a dive,simply amazing!)4. Laminar Flow wing, designed in the United States of America and used on later models of the spitfire! 4. Stronger wing design for increase speeds. 5.Drop fuel tanks so the British could finally have a long rang offensive fighter plane thanks to American innovation! 6. More h.p. 1,470 spitfire vs. 1,720 Mustang .....
@lander4545 ......stalling has nothing to do with an engine....it an aerodynamic problem!!!!!!!!!...it is when an aerofoil exceeds a certain angle of attack....clearly you know nothing about flying. How many hours in your logbook......over 1000 in mine!!!!!
@Aussiephil99 Ahahahahah! ......you can't make this shit up..........1000 hrs in a carnival ride doesn't count! ;) Carburetor......no fuel......engine stop.......= British Spitfire! Ahahahahah! Look up the meaning of DO YOUR HOMEWORK!
@lander4545 ..yes I know that the early Merlins would cut out under negative G maneuvours...your engine cutting out is NOT I repeat NOT ....STALLING.......as you said it was. Your use of terminolgy demonstrates you know nothing about flying at all!!!....if you knew anything about flying you'd know what an aerodynamic stall is......and yes i have a commercial pilots licence and instructor rating and aerobatic endorsement.......I don't really give a fuck whether you believe me or not.
@Aussiephil99 Ahahahahah! "and yes i have a commercial pilots licence and instructor rating and aerobatic endorsement......." I couldn't stop laughing lol. Your really desperate now! Ahahahahah. "cutting out/stalling out " = Spitfire/Hurricanes and the best of British technology have NO Power in a dive to catch the Bf 109E because someone forgot to put on a pressurized carburettors from America's Bendix Corporation on your Spitfires and Hurricanes!............
@lander4545 dont want to spoil the fun but the Spitfire Mk.II and Messeschmitt BF109E were almost identical in performance, the only thing the spitfire was better in was climbing, and yes BF was better in diving and higher speeds
@Aussiephil99....... "Britain was well in advance of the US technologically in 1940 and most certainly didn't need the US to build them better aircraft!!!!!!!" Ah,maybe ya better take a second look! Ahahahahaha lol. .............you damned fool!..............stalling Spitfires/Hurricanes and all! ;) Feel like an idiot yet??
@lander4545 And Britain was in advance of technology, US needed another year maybe 1.5 years to match the performance of british/japanese/german fighters
@liambloemendaal not to mention the Meteor or ME262 who were available and flying combat missions in the end of 1943 (ME262), when did US jets come to life....ah yes.....1945.
@liambloemendaal .yes and when American jets did fly...they had british engines. Furthermore, the supersonic Bell X-1 only flew supersonically in 1947 after it's tail was modified to be identical to a Britsh research aircraft after Britian allowed American access to it high speed research in Britain. The reciprocal visit by the British to the US was cancelled at the last moment by the US. Some would call that industrial espionage'.
@Aussiephil99 ".yes and when American jets did fly...they had british engines.", is that all you talk about are british engines that American had to continually modify and update to make them air worthy?? .....................move on and get a life! .......Cha-Ching!
@lander4545 .......no they used British jet engines becuase the US had no jet technology FUCKWIT. BTW when the RAF evalauted to P-59 they thought it was a pile of shit and vastly inferior to the Britsh jets already flying. Stop embarrasing yourself you cretin!!!!
@Aussiephil99 "The GE J31 was a direct copy of the original Whittle jet.....A COPY." (Folks this is to easy,suckered this asshole right into the mix again.l.o.l.),shall I give you the improvements and updates that General Electric incorporated into this engine just as Packard did to the Merlin?? Here's a little slap upside the head for ya:....Currently the most feared fighter jet in the world is the American built F-22 Raptor. That's free.....no charge! :) lol.
@Aussiephil99 "BTW when the RAF evalauted to P-59 they thought it was a pile of shit and vastly inferior to the Britsh jets already flying." Please site one source to back up that statement! Here's were you got most of your technology....free from the U.S.A...ready?... Lend-Lease and ....ready? ....The Marshall Plan. You got cash 'cause by 1942 you were bankrupt and you got good 'ole American technology! ...free...you were so "smart" Churchhill came begging for help! Your welcome!
@Aussiephil99 "Until the BRITISH modified the airframe and put a Merlin in it...the rest is history....much of the credit for it success must go to the BRITISH!!!!!!!!!".........Now that I have proved @Aussiephil99 totally enept at providing any factual historical guidence here is what the official British Air Ministry said when North American Aviation and Ronnie Harker (Rolls Royce service liason pilot) wanted to mate the American built Packard V-1650-1 into the P-51's airframe,
@Aussiephil99 ......(Note: No actual Rolls Royce Merlin built engine was ever put into a manufactured P-51 Mustang,they were ALL Packard built!) Putting the Packard into the Mustang would draw valuable resources away from getting the Mk.IX into the frontline to combat the Luftwaffe's potent new threat-the Focke-Wulf Fw 190. The British Air Ministry would not approve and that there would not be any engines available anyhow as they were all reguired for the Spitfire (by this time ...
@lander4545 Packard built Merlin engines under licence from Rolls Royce. The engine is still a British design! The p51-D airframe was a British design. The teardrop canopy was British.
@Aussiephil99 .....the American built,updated and improved Packard engines were going into the Spitfires)-and why waste time on an untried American built aeroplane. ....end of quote! You see folks British arrogance is a state of mind,they simply believe that they are better than everybody at anything! .....It sure is fun having the factual documents to prove them wrong!....Notice how fast @Aussiephil wanted to get away from the Mustang and draw me into other arguments as he .....
@Aussiephil99 ....was confronted with factual historical data for the first time! The British had absolutely NO input into the design OR development of the Mustang. The Packard engine was light years ahead of the British Rolls Royce version.The British did come up with the idea of wanting a new plane to cover the faults of the Spitfire and North American did deliver even engineering the "light weight" Mustang that reached speeds of 495 m.p.h.,.....the rest is documented history! ;)
@TheRedDal3k Yes, I agree it was an awesome fighter! But it did have flaws. But the P-51 Mustang did indeed fix the "faults" of the Spitfire. That is why the British Air ministry had ask North American Aviation to come up with a new fighter......the P-51 Mustang.
@Aussiephil99 Here's another little bit of history for you. When Bernard Montgomery finally (Britain kept replacing failing comanders in the North African campaign against Erwin Rommel) defeated the Germans in North Africa he did it useing American built Grant and Sherman tanks! The U.S. had a total dominating presence through intelligence, military hardware and technologies ,but you'll NEVER hear a Brit admit it!....jealous pricks! Your welcome,need anything else??;)
@lander4545 You seem quite a patriot. But you are getting carried away with all the hype.- you need to get your facts right. The P-51 was an outstanding aircraft, but it was developed using the technology that was available at the time. A lot of that technology was learnt from the British, who had designed the 'Spit' 4 years earlier. The yanks learned from our mistakes, but at the same time took the 'plus points' from it. - So dont preach that the British had no input into the design of th P-51
@njmitchell641"The P-51 was an outstanding aircraft, but it was developed using the technology that was available at the time. A lot of that technology was learnt from the British," Please explain from an engineering standpoint and your sources,I just hope your not another Brit passing on more folklore?
@njmitchell641 The British had absolutley NO input into the design of P-51 Mustang. All the British Air Ministry did was to give North American Aviation the "specs" of what they were looking for in a new fighter. That first prototype was the NA-73X of which North American Aviation president James H. "Dutch" Kindelberger gave lead designer Edgar Schmued the go ahead to put together a design team. The design of the NA-73X had NO British input as did NONE of the succeeding........
@lander4545 The NA-73x was a prototype airframe that was designed by North American Aviation using British specs (and with your own design input),. Its power plant (Allison V) was not really 'up to the job'. So a better engine from Packhard was designed, built under Rolls R licence......... ie, a copy of it, - with improvements! .........So the British DID have input into the design of the P51D version of the Mustang. You obviously know a great deal about P51s, but please dont patronise me!
@njmitchell641.......lander says......." So a better engine from Packhard was designed, built under Rolls R licence"..........the facts are it was never an American idea to put a Merlin in a Mustang it wasa BRITISH idea. AND the engine wasn't DESGINED by PACKARD IT WAS DESIGED BY ROLLS ROYCE THAT WHY IT WAS CALLED A MERLIN who the fuck does he think he's kidding!!
@Aussiephil99 Stop your crying! Since I can't give you my data Google Packard V-1650 and on to Wikipedia. Look to the right at the picture of the Packard V-1650. At the bottom of the picture what does it say?........Developed from: Rolls Royce Merlin! ;).......The greatest obstacle to learning anything is thinking you already know everything!............you have not and cannot provide any sources for your rants. Folklorish lip service doesn't cut it! ;)
@njmitchell641 the Packard V-1650 Merlin was not anything close to the Ultimate Merlin and was merely a licence built copy of a series 60 Rolls Royce Merlin with modifications to suit high altitude escory work of the P-51....that's all.......it's a BRITISH engine. Just because a Toyota Corrolla is built in The US doesn't make it a US car
@Aussiephil99 The Toyota Corolla isn't licensed out to any other manufacturer and is built by Toyota in a plant owned by Toyota. You example is an Oxymoron! ;)
@noonsight2010 .....Landers basic argument is that in the case of the Packard Merlin .....a licence built version of something was designed by the people constructing it under licence..........which even a complete moron could see is ridiculous.....clearly he is a moron.
@Aussiephil99 Facts are facts boys and I know you've seen them...........now getting you to admit it and swallow your pride........well,thats another story! ;)
@lander4545 The P51-D was a British design. Earlier marks were American built and designed but the Allison engine was specified by the British. You have a computer. Research it! You really are an imbecile.
@noonsight2010 Who was the British design team of the P-51 Mustang. What was the lead designers name? I'll accept anything for proof! A British design drawing? A sketch on a tissue?.........ANYTHING?? (To the folks in the know,this attitude is exactly how the british have gotten there assess in a jam before)......Remember just because it sounds good and makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside does't make it the truth! .......Coffee shop consultants need not apply! lol. ;)
@lander4545 an NAA team lead by Schmeud and Rice designed the Mustang to specs. from British Purchasing Commission headed by Sir Henry Self, with significant input from Sir Wilfred Freeman. Capt. Eric brown, RN chief Test Pilot is a likely candidate for suggesting the Merlin. He reviewed the Mustang at the RAE. In Jan '43 Col. Mark Bradley was sent to England to collect teardrop canopy technology for Mustang. E W Hive lead the Rolls Royce team which perfected the Merlin.
@noonsightIn "Jan '43 Col. Mark Bradley was sent to England to collect teardrop canopy technology for Mustang." Ah,no.........the first American fighter the tear drop canopy went on was the P-47 Thunderbolt. The Mustang canopy came after the P-47 47 was fiited with it. "E W Hive lead the Rolls Royce "an NAA team lead by Schmeud and Rice designed the Mustang to specs. from British Purchasing Commission" Ah,no...... And the "design team" that designed the p-51?
@lander4545 In fact, as suggested by another poster below, the test pilot who suggested fitting a Merlin into the Mustang was Ronnie Harker. He had been a Rolls Royce liasion pilot pre-war and went into RAF operational service, then to return to test duties. He was invited to test the Mustang in April 1942 and as a result propsed the Merlin. The first Merlins fitted to the Mustang were in P51-Bs in 1942.
@lander4545 To repeat,you dont have to be a designer to produce a specification for the P-51, The Americans did the designing,- it just had to meet a certain British criteria. Lander, without sounding patronising, if you were Henry Ford and i was the client and i asked you to produce a car with a 4.7L engine, exceeds 150mph and must cane Ferrari's arse on a race track......you may come up with the GT40?. - This doesnt make me a designer does it? -But i would have a huge input in the design!
@lander4545 You,ve been given "chapter and verse" on the history of the Mustang and you still do not accept it. It was built to British specs (which the early marks failed to reach), had British Merlin engines from 1942 starting with the P51-B as proposed by RAF test pilot Ronnie Harker, and had the British teardrop canopy and consequential airframe/fuselage modifications after Col. Bradley was given the details in January 1943 when he came to England for that purpose.
@noonsight2010 The bubble canopy was a British product built by R. Malcom & CO. L.T.D.........you are correct!...........good job on the research! "You,ve been given "chapter and verse" on the history of the Mustang and you still do not accept it." No... I came into this discussion "chaptered and versed"your still in the learning stages but at least your finally doing some indepth research which is all one can ask. Did you find those British designers of the P-51 yet?? ......
@noonsight2010 A British built Rolls Royce Merlin engine never went into a production built P-51 Mustang. On the other hand the American built Packard V-1650 did go into your Spitfires,Mosquito and Lancaster bombers. I'm wait awhile longer while you research the British P-51 design team. From some of your accusation comments we must be having a cultural divide of some sort because I never said the "bubble canopy" or that the British built "Merlins" weren't British.
@lander4545 The merlin was a British design. I know those in the Mustang were US Built. By Packard under licence from Rolls Royce. So from the P-51 D to at least the P51-D marks, there were Britrish designed engines. Vickers and others built far more Spitfires than the tiny Supermarine company ever could. Under licence. They were still Supermarine Spitfires. You have stated there was no British input into the Mustang. You contradict yourself. It was full of British technology.
@noonsight2010 "You have stated there was no British input into the Mustang. You contradict yourself ". Once again.....Ah,no........There was NO British design nor any design specs presented by the British for the first P-51 Mustang prototypes "AIRFRAME" nor any subsequent design changes thereafter. Any and ALL design changes to the production Mustang were done by Edgar Schmued and his design team!..................Here is the REAL story of the P-51-Mustang from BRITISH data .....
@noonsight2010 ........which corresponds with the data I have from North American Aviation.... Initially the British Air Ministry wanted the P-40 Tomahawk produced by the Curtiss-Wright Corporation fom Buffalo,New York. Because of the large order that the British Purchasing Commisission had put in for the P-40,Curtiss-Wright could not fill the order. The British Air Ministry had been purchaing the North American NA-16 (at-16 Texan) trainer in 1938 to train there pilots for ....
@noonsight2010 ....the Royal Air Force and other Commonwealth air forces,so they knew of the excellent quality coming from North American Aviation. With that in mind they asked North American to build the P-40 under license but with the test data from the New Curtiss-Wright XP-46. (This plane looks alot loke the P-51 prototype). The British were impressed with the XP-46! North American Aviaton management team decided that it would be much more beneficial to the company to ....
@noonsight2010 ....create there own fighter design (corporate ego's were availible in 1940 also lol.) to present to the R.A.F. North American Aviation bought the specs from the XP-46 from Curtiss-Wright for $56,000 dollars. Those specs included data covering a comprehensive series of wind tunnel,cooling,and performance tests. This data is what North American Aviation used in the design and manufacture of the P-51 prototype. Hence... no British input. Here is the letter from .....
@noonsight2010 ....North American's Lee Atwood to Sir Henry Self of the purchasin commision dated May 1,1940. "In accordance with our understanding,we are proceeding with the design of a single seat fighter,our model NA-73,incorporating an Allison engine and fitted with provisions and armament as detailed more completely hereunder. "We have reached an extremely satisfactory agreement with the Curtiss Aeroplane Company of Buffalo (New York) wherein they are furnishing to us data ..
@noonsight2010 ...covering a comprhensive series of wind tunnel,cooling,and performance tests of a similar plane (the XP-46),which data will assist us in the design and manufacture and export of these airplanes and wish to assure you that all arrangements are entirely satisfactory."We are prepared to contruct and deliver to you 320 of these airplanes before September 30,1941. and gurantee to effect these deliveries with the following schedule.....(this letter continues for two ..
@noonsight2010 ...more pages) The total cost for the initial P-51 Mustang to the British Purchaing Commision was for $14,746,964.35! So,the initial P-51 Mustangs "specs" came from the Curtiss-Wright Corporation of Buffalo New York and were NOT presented to North American Aviation from the British Air Ministry no the British purchaing Commision or any other British entity. Those are some of the documented facts I have on the arrival of the P-51 Mustang! As a WW11 buff I have ....
@noonsight2010 ....alot of data from WW11 planes. (Don't get me started on Battleships! lol.) I also have the data on how the Rolls Royce Merlin/Packard V-1650 made it into the Mustang if you care to know? I will tell you this,the British Air Ministry did NOT want to do it! I will say that I admire Britain and in my opinion Sir Winston Churchill was the greatest statesman and ambassador EVER!
@lander4545 There were several marks of P51. The P51-D, the "classic" Mustang was a British design and very different to the earlier marks. Those earlier marks were American designed and produced with Allison engines as specified by the British for whom they were primarily intended. You really do not know anything about the subject. There is no excuse as you evidently have internet access, so do some research!
@noonsight2010 Get ready it's a coming. Keep up the good work! lol. ;) Probably will post tonight when I get home from work. Keep researching ,cause your not even close! l.o.l
@njmitchell641 The Allison engine was an excellent engine. The Allison V-1710-87 was exactly the right engine for the Mustang's initial combat mission. The engine mated to the Mustang was originally for low level ground attack. In fact it was heavily armed,highly maneuverable,had very good range,and could really get moving at altitudes below 10,000 feet,in fact it was capable of outrunning anything flown by the RAF or the Luftwaffe at or below that altitude!............
@lander4545 You have misread my message - i quoted that the (Allison V) was not really 'up to the job'.- i never said that it wasnt any good! You correctly admitted that it was not very good at high altitudes. Hence why a different power plant was opted for.
@njmitchell641 Correct! Britain specified the Allison engine in the P51 before the British designed P51-D was fitted with the Packard Merlin as the Allison was poor at high altitude, leaving early P51 marks best for ground attack roles.
@lander4545 The Mustang failed in it's intended role as a fighter and was relegated to army co-operation roles at low level as it did not perform to the British specifications until re-engined with the Merlin. So in fact the Allison was far from the right engine, although it was specified by the British.
@njmitchell641 ........as the war proggressed combat missions were fought at higher altitudes and the Allison not haveing a "high altitude supercharger" didn't perform well at those altitudes,so thats were the Rolls Royce Merlin comes into play. My data tells me that all of the changes to the Mustangs design,and there were many,came about by wind tunnel testing data at North American Aviation,there engineers,there test pilots and combat pilots.
@lander4545 So teardrop canopies were not British? The US did not have the technolgy to produce them and sent Colonel Mark Bradley from the US to England in January 1943 to collect the technical details. Merlin engines were not British?
Former Rolls Royce liasion pilot Ronnie Harker, in his role as an RAF test pilot tested the Mustang in 1942 and proposed the Merlin engine. The P51-B was the first mark to have the Merlin, in 1942.
@lander4545 MERLIN - ROLLS ROYCE. BRITISH DESIGN. A major input into the development of the P51 as suggested by British RAF test pilot Ronnie Harker in 1942.
@njmitchell641 ...design upgrades. All of that work was done by Edgar Schmued and his design team.The Packard Car Company didn't know much about airplanes but they did know engineering,so they updated,improved and modernized from an engineering stand point the Rolls Royce Merlin.From the concept of that engine they developed the Packard v-1650.Research everything a mentioned and you'll find it to be ALL factual. Some folks like "@Aussiephil99",as they say,"Can't handle the truth"!
@lander4545 The truth? - The facts are, that Britain and the USA shared technologies, like allies should when fighting a common foe. The British were miles ahead of the USA when it came to ASDIC, RADAR, SONAR, aircraft design, codebreaking etc.(we had to be, we were at war 3 years before your guys stepped in to help us) Whilst the Americans were better at tank design, ship building, and mass production. So when will you admit that the Brits had a major impact on the American war machine?
@njmitchell641 Oh! and by the way, i realise we would have lost the war if the USA hadnt steeped in. Just in case you feel the urge to remind me!.........But then if we had fallen, the Americans wouldnt have had that little 'stepping stone' we call 'Blighty' to launch an offensive against the Axis!
@njmitchell641 The term "Blighty" is just a "feel good" term one incorporates to substantiate an inferiority complex.,which is fine if it makes one feel better ;)......but the fact of the matter is by 1942 Britain was out of hope,bankrupt and begging the American's for help above and beyond "Lend/Lease. The Americans "stepping stone" as you put it, was the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor and our manufacturing base which was far more advanced than Britains! ;)
@lander4545 The US manufacturing base was larger than Britain's, certainly not more advanced. During WW2 Britian gave the USA the jet engine, radar, the cavity magnetron and developed poor US aircraft into superb fighters, such as the Vought Corsair and P521-D Mustang - a British design. We also gave the USA all of it's aircraft carrier technology - the steam catapault, angled flight deck and landing guidance signals. After WW2, supersonic flight (Bell x-1 based on Miles aircraft), VTOL etc.
@lander4545 So if we have 'Nicknames' for something, it translates to having an inferiority complex does it?? - ok, thanks for that! - Where does that leave 'The Big Apple' ?
@njmitchell641 "codebreaking" The British didn't break the enigma code if that's whay you are reffering to : That goes to the Polish mathematicians of the Polish Cipher Bureau". .(we had to be, we were at war 3 years before your guys stepped in to help us)", We saved Britain begining March 11,1941 with "Lend-Lease". Americans weren't in a joyous mood in 1939 to help Britain's warmongering ways. You declared war on Germany...we didn't! The Japenese bombing of Pearl Harbor is ....
@lander4545 The Poles invented the "enigma" machine to prevent industrial espionage. Polish code-breakers gave the British a strong lead into breaking enigma but it was Alan Turing with the "bomb" electro-mechanical computers and later Tommy Flowers with "Colossus", the first programmable electronic computer, at Bletchley Park who facilitated reliable and constant breaking of enigma. The irony was the enigma machine was fully detailed in files in London Patent Office, found too late after WW2!
@lander4545 Your right, the Poles showed us 'a way in' on how to decipher Enigma. But prior to the outbreak of ww2, the German military decided to add a plugboard and rotors. Hence we couldnt decrypt any messages. - Without Polish input we wouldnt have 'broken it'. But my friend, - it was Bletchley Park who 'cracked' the codes! - ........Do you accept anything that the Brits did during the war years was of any good? or are you anti British?
@njmitchell641 Not anti British at all. As a matter of fact I admire Britain. But when presented with documented historical facts you Brits seem to go bonkers!! Shall I say egotistical??
@lander4545 Bonkers..No ...Egotistical... Maybe, but we have a lot of historical facts that have been presented to us Brits. Some may have been lost or misrepresented with time. But most of those were in the days when it was carried through word of mouth (fables) and not recorded through depiction, documentation or film even........but then Hollywood is guilty of being egotistical more than anything, in the US.......Who knows, kids in the future may believe Tom Cruise was a genuine fighter ace!
@njmitchell641 I sense that you are at least somewhat logical. You've done some good research. @nimitchell641 is to vindictive of the facts and @Aussiephil99 is COMPLETELY gone! His idea of research is to lock on the caps and proclaim, "ITS BRITISH!!!! ITS BRITISH!!!!! L.O.L. Any luck on the British design team for the P-51 Mustang??;) Will post the data tomorrow as it requires alot of typing and am little tired after a long day in the engineering dept.
@njmitchell641 ....is what led America into being the "arsenal of democracy" in WW11 it certainly wasn't the British. Now getting back to the P-51. The British had absolutley NO design input on the P-51....NOTHING....not from the prototype and up to and including the last one built. If you don't agree please provide me with the British designer or the design team. Don't fall into the @Aussiephil99 trap of just saying things because it sounds and feels good!
@lander4545 The P51-D was a British design. The teardrop canopy, shortened fuselage and Rolls Royce Merlin engine (Packard built under licence) were British. The P51-A was conceived and built for supply to Britain and the British specified the Allison engine.
@lander4545 You dont have to be a designer to produce a specification for an aircraft, The Americans did the designing, - it just had to meet a certain British criteria at the time. So i dont see how you can deny that the British had no input into the design or performance of the Mustang.
@njmitchell641 Absolutely. Britain gave a vast asmount of technology to the USA as Imentioned in another post. Post war we gave supersonic flight technology and the microwave oven to the USA. The US benefitted enormously from British technology and still had the cheek to take cash as well in war repayments. The US were and are good at logistics, but were not great innovators prior to or during WW2. US tanks were inferior to later war British tanks such as Comet which matched nearly anything.
@njmitchell641 u know ur right... i mean we won either way i mean all we could do is rly just shake hands... we owe you guys and you us... thats how i see it no nation is better or anything like that... we are equal... we are allies plain and simple
@Aussiephil99 If the truth hurts your British pride than don't start an argument that your not qualified to cover, you can lie the facts but you can't hide them.ol.;)
@Aussiephil99 ".......ha ha ha even your fellow countrymen think you're a tool!!!" @njmitchell641""The yanks learned from our mistakes" Ah,no.......that would be from your fellow countryman!...Can't comprehend anything correctly can you.......that explains everything!;) lol.
@liambloemendaal ...Lander4545 knows nothing. He continually reverts back to waffling on about Packard...it's the only book he's read. It obviously really upsets him that far and away the best US aircraft of the war would have been ordinary had the British not stepped in and modified it. I've given up arguing with him. I have better things to do.
@Aussiephil99 "...Lander4545 knows nothing. He continually reverts back to waffling on about Packard...it's the only book he's read." Ahahahah.....you started the argument about my knowledge of the P-51 and you subsequently got your ass handed to you. AND when I presented you with documented historical facts you couldn't get out of the room fast enough. Do you think I was going to let you stray from your pig headed folkloric fantasies! ;)..............
@Aussiephil99 ..............and the engine in the first American fighter jet was the General Electric J31. The Bell P-59 Air Comet first flew on Oct.1, 1942.;) ..............notice @liambloemendaal didn't respond to you? He also knows your a know nothing loud mouth looking for trouble! Go troll another site........you've been had!
@lander4545 .....once again showing your massive intellect....NOT!! The GE J31 was a direct copy of the original Whittle jet.....A COPY. Your 'wonderful' sabre of the Korean war had a direct copy of a Rolls Royce Nene !!!!! I suggest you educate yourself.....your embarrassing yourself and your country
@Aussiephil99 Time to take your rose-colored glasses off and kiss mommie nite,nite! As a Brit your screwed. You guys are so fucked up your head of the 2012 Olympics security left the security details for the games on a train and some loving Brit turned it in to the tabloids! Aahahahahah! Oh,ya I'll feel safe at those games.................NOT!! Shall we (the Americans) come bail you out once again?? Ahahahahah! :)
@lander4545 The British gave the jet engine to both the USA and to Russia. The MiG 15 had a copy of the Rolls Royce Nene engine taken from two (sic) originals sent to Russia.
@Aussiephil99 Aside from the British designed P51-D, the Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm developed the poor Vought Corsair into the superb fighter it became.
@noonsight2010 .......yes the Corsair had a high accident rate with the US. It was the Royal Navy....and the Royal New Zealand Airforce in the pacific that showed the Americans how to fly the Corsair!!!!
@njmitchell641 ........yes and the angled flight deck seen on virtually all carriers these days....including American super carriers was a British post war invention.
@liambloemendaal "when did US jets come to life....ah yes.....1945." Ah,no.......The first U.S. fighter jet was the Bell P-59 Aira Comet and first flew on Oct.1, 1942.
The Mustang P-51 is an awesome machine without doubt.
My personal "bests" of all WWII aircraft by category:
Long range escort fighter: Mustang P-51D
Short range interceptor fighter: Spitfire MkXIV
Best handling at lower speeds: Nakajima K-84 "Frank".
Fastest: No contest; the Me 262.
Fighter-Bomber: It's a tie between the P-47 Thunderbolt and the DH Mosquito
Best Bomber: A tie between the B-29 and the Avro Lancaster.
Merlin2Stage2Speed 17 hours ago
Such an awe inspiring machine!!
peyo001 19 hours ago
Yay internet arguments... let me get my popcorn.
Beautiful video by the way.
AlexisBV 4 days ago
Beautiful, I loved it.
mreid08 4 days ago
What beautiful airplanes..! The P-51 is one of the all time best.
Velotracer 5 days ago
so beautiful,,, boy what these babys mustve looked like back in their hayday
metallicarox15 5 days ago
I dont understand the fighting between allies concerning that topic...but somehow typical for winners...they won because they have done it right...who of the winners was more right who was less right??? well, fact is..the Merlin is an extraordinary engine and the Mustang wonderful designed in aerodynamics...so the combination did the success...and sorry to mention it but the guy who designed the Mustang was Edgar Schmued, born in Germany.
Dont get me wrong he was an american as many germans are
grazyarnie 5 days ago
On the subject of Rolls royce engines, who knew that the JU 87 Stuka protypes, built secretly in Sweden, had Rolls Royce engines? How's that for sickening? Also, as somebody mentioned below, the British gave asdic/sonar to the USA.
noonsight2010 6 days ago
behold, the greatest aircraft built during WW2
fistacuff56 1 week ago
The Old Crow is Norwegian:-)
Hugonorge08 1 week ago
P-51 Mustangs in the air - The P-51 Mustang Video - "Sketches of Freedom"
themax3033 1 week ago
pura poesia
fullefficiency 1 week ago
Fabulous! The whistle is unmistakeable, made me cry x
kizzylump 2 weeks ago
I'd like to buy some of this aerial footage from the company you mention "Gemini".
reticulan5 3 weeks ago
Lucky men...
BeChucky 3 weeks ago
if i could, i would watch planes all day
TheQuichute 3 weeks ago
piękno siła potęga
arminiusz1 3 weeks ago
Isn't it ironic that this beautiful warbird was originally designed for the British as a replacement for the P40s they were buying from us?
rpsmith221 3 weeks ago
@rpsmith221 The P51-D was designed BY the British. The teardrop canopy, revised fuselage and Merlin engine in this mark were British.
noonsight2010 6 days ago
@noonsight2010 lol. that's funny...........i'll let you make a fool of yourself a while longer and just shortly i'll give you what the REAL story of british input into the P-51 was! Better scramble and do some research................no folklore(national pride) to be included!;)
lander4545 6 days ago
@lander4545 Not funny. Just TRUE. You have no knowledge of the subject and you do not even seem to know there were several marks P51. You are extremely ignorant even with all the people on here telling you the historical facts.
noonsight2010 6 days ago
WOW!!!!
kangasmom 3 weeks ago in playlist great 80's
WOW!!!!
kangasmom 3 weeks ago in playlist great 80's
awesome vid iv always loved p-51's love it thank you!
413ZEE 4 weeks ago
awesome airplane
peterpeugeotsaab 1 month ago
who knew bucket would go so good with mustangs!!!
nivekab 1 month ago 7
the sounds of the WW II birds close up beat all music hands down
Tubbytoobs 1 month ago 6
Beatiful fighters.
atvkajantti60 1 month ago
What an awesome video, Thank you for making it and sharing it. Maybe one day I can get my hands on one.
erikburns1 1 month ago
RIP Big Beautiful Doll 2011 Duxford...........
Fuzzbuttuk 1 month ago
most awesome Warbird ever !!
pointnozzleaway 1 month ago
Wonderful video, love these planes!
wreckdiver001 1 month ago
awasome,this is my favorite ww2 warbird
sithlord2225 1 month ago
i LOVE that scream
Joeaviation1712 1 month ago
beautiful
VaiMamalo1 1 month ago
1:13 = intro scene to Band of Brothers
espinaca27 1 month ago
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@TheMrUbul
ok, some reasons here.
1st: Erich Hartmann was the best pilot of germany, with 352 victories. He had a BF 109.
2nd: a Bf 109K was faster tha a P51.
3rd: all the Bf 109 had more firepower than a P51
4th: Bf 109 is still the more legendary plane of world
5th, and the best: Bf 109 was a german plane.
p.s.: usa controls the midia, and they dont tell the truth of 2ndww. germans were not the bad guys.
p.s.2: i am brazilian, and i am proud to have some german blood in my veins.
tanamerdadodemonho 1 month ago
@tanamerdadodemonho You'll be o.k. as soon as the fog clears!
lander4545 4 weeks ago
@lander4545
And u will be ok when u really try to study about ww2 and see that usa still holds the true of it!
tanamerdadodemonho 3 weeks ago
@tanamerdadodemonho I was studying and assessing WW11 before you were born! lol. The best ALL AROUND plane to come out of WW11 was the American built P-51D with the American build Packard V-1650-7 engine which was developed from Britain's Rolls Royce Merlin engine..................................Period!
lander4545 3 weeks ago
@lander4545 ....do you spend your whole life defending the mustang.....you need to get a life if thats all you have to do.........without the input of the British the mustang would never have been what it was.......I know it....and you know it!!!!!!..anyway the best all round aircraft of WW2 was the Mosquito...Period!!!!!
Aussiephil99 3 weeks ago
@Aussiephil99 "do you spend your whole life defending the mustang"Yes I do when it comes to those who want change history based on folklore! What I stated is 100% unequivocally true and "you know it"....hurts a little doesn't?? I've spent alot of money to get the documentation and the resources to prove it. Why?just to shut up the coffee shop consultant's like yourself who perpetuating the lies! Edmund Schmued lead the design team for the P-51 Mustang at North American Aviation....
lander4545 3 weeks ago
@Aussiephil99 with NO British input!........period! The American built Packard V-1650-7 engine was an improved,updated AND upgrated engine based on the Rolls Royce Merlin..........Period! Prove it to me if I'm wrong! Tell a big lie loud enough and often enough the simpletons (you) will believe it! ;)
lander4545 3 weeks ago
@lander4545 ...regarding your no British input comment.....had British engineers not put a merlin in a mustang in the first place the Americans could not have made the 'minor' modifications to it they wanted. Basically the P-51 was a dud until it was redesigned by BRITISH engineers and given a ROLLS ROYCE engine.
Aussiephil99 2 weeks ago
@Aussiephil99 Here is the UNBIASED list of the top 10 aircraft of WW11. 1. North American P-51 Mustang 2. Focke-Wulf Fw-190 3. Supermarine Spitfire 4. Messerschmitt Bf-109 5. Mitsubishi A6 M Zero 6. Junkers 87 Stuka 7. Ilyushin-2 Shturmovik 8. Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress 9.Vought F4U Corsair 10.Messerschmitt 262. A "Mosquito" is what you swat on hot humid days! lol. ;)
lander4545 3 weeks ago
@lander4545 .....regarding your UNBIASED list of top 10 aircraft......who the fuck are you to judge.........anyway. The Mosquito was a suberb aircraft as anybody who actually know anything about aircraft knows!!!b The Lancaster was a far superior bomber than the B-17.....the B-17 in Britsih terms was basically a light bomber given the pathetic bomb load it carried. As for the Ju-87....it was rubbish.......it was massacred on the western front.
Aussiephil99 2 weeks ago
@lander4545 ....might I suggest you read some books that aren't authored by Americans and written purely about American aircraft!!!........you might learn something......by the way depending on the criteria you use...far and away the best all round piston engined allied fighter of WW2 was the Hawker Tempest.......matched perhaps only by the Focke Wulf Ta-152
Aussiephil99 2 weeks ago
@Aussiephil99 O.K. Hear goes a book ;) "Building The P-51 Mustang" by Micheal O'Leary. This book was printed and distributed in the U.K. and Europe by Cre'cy Publishing Ltd. of Manchester, United Kingdom. Dude, I have all the facts about the P-51 at my fingertips in my office. Folklore and documented history are at different ends of the spectrum so if your going to take me on about the P-51 Mustang you better get your oars in the water! You learn from the facts not your ego! ;)
lander4545 2 weeks ago
@lander4545 .....I don't deny you may have read a book about P-51s..so what. Without the decision to initially put the merlin in a mustang it never would have been the aircraft it was...you seem intent on giving the British absolutely no credit whatsoever for the evolution of the mustang. Your knowledge of aircraft generally must be questioned if you consider the Ju-87 a better combat aircraft than a Lancaster, or Mosquito......or Typhoon for that matter
Aussiephil99 2 weeks ago
@Aussiephil99 "I don't deny you may have read a book about P-51s..so what." Nice attempt at marginalizing my historical and factual knowledge of the P-51 Mustang,even from the British perspective in the book I mentioned! (did you read the book?) I give the British credit for needing a plane to replace the faults of the Spitfire. But the British did not design even the initial Mustang which was designated the NA-73X. That credit goes to North American design engineer Edmund Schmued.
lander4545 2 weeks ago
@lander4545 ...this is where you are indicating what an idiot you are...the mustang was never designed to 'replace the faults of the spitfire' It was designed as Britain suspected they may have a shortage of front tline fighters. The initial Mustangs delivered to the British weren't up to the job so were used in army cooperation. Until the BRITISH modified the airframe and put a Merlin in it...the rest is history....much of the credit for it success must go to the BRITISH!!!!!!!!!
Aussiephil99 2 weeks ago
@Aussiephil99 Here is one fault of the British Spitfire. The spitfire was a defensive weapon because of it's short range and could NOT take the fight to the enemy. On the other hand American built P-51 Mustang with it's drop tanks was an offensive weapon because of it's long range. And don't forget that the original Mustang was built to BRITISH specs! After numerous modifications we have the best all around fighter of WW11, the American built P-51 Mustang ...................
lander4545 2 weeks ago
@Aussiephil99 ............with the highly modified "from the original specs" American built Packard 1650-V-7 engine. And yes the Mustang was designed to replace the faults of the Spitfire! This is unadulterated knowlege to those who have studied the history of the P-51 Mustang. The only reason the British wanted the Mustang was because they couldn't get any P-40's from Curtiss-Wright because there production lines were maxed out and couldn't produce enough to fill British orders.
lander4545 2 weeks ago
@lander4545 ...I repeat the Mustang was NOT designed to replace the faults of the spitfire. If Britain wanted to design an aircraft to replace the Spitfire they were quite capable of doing that themselves. Nearly all American aircraft at that time (1940) were hopeless by European standards.......and throughout WW2...Britain and Germany continued to be the two most technologically advanced airforces in terms of aircraft design....jet propulsion....radar..etc
Aussiephil99 2 weeks ago
@Aussiephil99 O.K. if the Mustang was not designed to replace the faults of the Mustang then why did Britain want a new fighter? Why didn't Britain design it themselves if they were quite capable of it as you say? They could have just stayed with the Spitfire. You researched and found out that i'm correct didn't you?lol. If American aircraft in 1940 were hopeless by "European standards" as you say then why did Britain want to purchase the P-40 Tomahawk.??
lander4545 2 weeks ago
@lander4545 .Britain needed America's help because they were desperate..they were at war...the US wasn't. British factories were being bombed. The Spitfire was produced throughout the war and was a superb fighter.....later versions were every bit as good as the P-51, in a skilled pilots hand it could easily out 'dogfight' a P-51. The P-40 was possibly a similar level to the Hurricane...the only reason Britian wanted them is because they couldn't produce enough of their own aircraft.
Aussiephil99 2 weeks ago
@Aussiephil99 O.K. If the P-51 Mustang didn't solve the faults of the Spitfire as you say,then why didn't Britain license North American Aviation to produce the Spitfire? There were also later versions of the P-51 built. The P-51-K is one example. But that still doesn't answer your rant of, "much of the credit for it success must go to the BRITISH!!!!!!!!!"
lander4545 2 weeks ago
@lander4545 .......you are an idiot. For fucks sake read some books!!!!!
Aussiephil99 2 weeks ago
@Aussiephil99" ....might I suggest you read some books that aren't authored by Americans and written purely about American aircraft!!!........" O.K. asshole I gave you the British authored book,"Building the P-51 Mustang" as one of my many references you air headed mother fucker. Now because your such a fucking asshole I will list all of the faults of the shit Spitfire that the American built P-51 Mustang solved. If you can't stand the heat next time try shutting your fuckin mouth!
lander4545 2 weeks ago
@lander4545 ...yep sounds like that's the only book you've ever read. You are a typical uneducated yank....you know fuck all. Your country came into WW2 in the last 5 minutes had very light casualties...and then tried to take all the credit.
Aussiephil99 2 weeks ago
@lander4545 ...I really find it hard to believe that someone who seems to know abit about the P-51 knows so little about every other aircraft. Britain was well in advance of the US technologically in 1940 and most certainly didn't need the US to build them better aircraft!!!!!!! If you truly believe the P-51 was meant to address the spitfire shortcomings you are one hell of a seriously misinformed American idiot!!!!!!
Aussiephil99 2 weeks ago
@Aussiephil99 You would like me to wander off in another direction because so far I have proved you wrong on EVERYTHING! Do you agree that one of the faults that the American made P-51 solved with the Spitfire is that it was a defensive weapon and couldn't take the fight to the enemy? If i'm an idiot it's because your CONTAGIOUS! ;)
lander4545 2 weeks ago
@lander4545 ....you haven't proven me wrong on anything!!! I just can't be bothered argueing with another American on youtube who gets his knowledge of WW2 from the history channel and hollywood movies.
Aussiephil99 2 weeks ago
@Aussiephil99 "....you haven't proven me wrong on anything!!! " That's because your another dellusional Brit that can stand the fact that without the American's you would have NO doubt lost the fight against Germany. You declared war on them and subsequently got your asses handed to you. You would like to change history by going on Youtube to try and spread more of your folklore! Ain't gonna happen shit for brains! ;)
lander4545 2 weeks ago
@Aussiephil99 The Rolls Royce Merlin made by Britain was an engineering disaster compared to the upgrades and improvments made by the American company Packard. One fault the P-51 Mustang and Packard couldn't solve on the British made Rolls Royce Merlin was the fact that it was liquid cooled. One piece of shrapnel and you were history. The faults that the P-51 Mustang solved over the British made Spitfire are 1. New engine bearing (that was HUGE!) 2.New supercharger ........
lander4545 2 weeks ago
@Aussiephil99 .....3.New pressure carburetor (before this change by Packard the British made spitfire would actually STALL in a dive,simply amazing!)4. Laminar Flow wing, designed in the United States of America and used on later models of the spitfire! 4. Stronger wing design for increase speeds. 5.Drop fuel tanks so the British could finally have a long rang offensive fighter plane thanks to American innovation! 6. More h.p. 1,470 spitfire vs. 1,720 Mustang .....
lander4545 2 weeks ago
@lander4545 ......stalling has nothing to do with an engine....it an aerodynamic problem!!!!!!!!!...it is when an aerofoil exceeds a certain angle of attack....clearly you know nothing about flying. How many hours in your logbook......over 1000 in mine!!!!!
Aussiephil99 2 weeks ago
@Aussiephil99 Ahahahahah! ......you can't make this shit up..........1000 hrs in a carnival ride doesn't count! ;) Carburetor......no fuel......engine stop.......= British Spitfire! Ahahahahah! Look up the meaning of DO YOUR HOMEWORK!
lander4545 2 weeks ago
@lander4545 ..yes I know that the early Merlins would cut out under negative G maneuvours...your engine cutting out is NOT I repeat NOT ....STALLING.......as you said it was. Your use of terminolgy demonstrates you know nothing about flying at all!!!....if you knew anything about flying you'd know what an aerodynamic stall is......and yes i have a commercial pilots licence and instructor rating and aerobatic endorsement.......I don't really give a fuck whether you believe me or not.
Aussiephil99 2 weeks ago
@Aussiephil99 Ahahahahah! "and yes i have a commercial pilots licence and instructor rating and aerobatic endorsement......." I couldn't stop laughing lol. Your really desperate now! Ahahahahah. "cutting out/stalling out " = Spitfire/Hurricanes and the best of British technology have NO Power in a dive to catch the Bf 109E because someone forgot to put on a pressurized carburettors from America's Bendix Corporation on your Spitfires and Hurricanes!............
lander4545 2 weeks ago
@lander4545 dont want to spoil the fun but the Spitfire Mk.II and Messeschmitt BF109E were almost identical in performance, the only thing the spitfire was better in was climbing, and yes BF was better in diving and higher speeds
liambloemendaal 1 week ago
@Aussiephil99....... "Britain was well in advance of the US technologically in 1940 and most certainly didn't need the US to build them better aircraft!!!!!!!" Ah,maybe ya better take a second look! Ahahahahaha lol. .............you damned fool!..............stalling Spitfires/Hurricanes and all! ;) Feel like an idiot yet??
lander4545 2 weeks ago
@lander4545 And Britain was in advance of technology, US needed another year maybe 1.5 years to match the performance of british/japanese/german fighters
liambloemendaal 1 week ago
@liambloemendaal not to mention the Meteor or ME262 who were available and flying combat missions in the end of 1943 (ME262), when did US jets come to life....ah yes.....1945.
liambloemendaal 1 week ago
@liambloemendaal Ah yes,and the P-51's shot down a few of those ME262'S to!
lander4545 1 week ago
@liambloemendaal .yes and when American jets did fly...they had british engines. Furthermore, the supersonic Bell X-1 only flew supersonically in 1947 after it's tail was modified to be identical to a Britsh research aircraft after Britian allowed American access to it high speed research in Britain. The reciprocal visit by the British to the US was cancelled at the last moment by the US. Some would call that industrial espionage'.
Aussiephil99 1 week ago
@Aussiephil99 ".yes and when American jets did fly...they had british engines.", is that all you talk about are british engines that American had to continually modify and update to make them air worthy?? .....................move on and get a life! .......Cha-Ching!
lander4545 1 week ago
@lander4545 .......no they used British jet engines becuase the US had no jet technology FUCKWIT. BTW when the RAF evalauted to P-59 they thought it was a pile of shit and vastly inferior to the Britsh jets already flying. Stop embarrasing yourself you cretin!!!!
Aussiephil99 1 week ago
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@Aussiephil99 "The GE J31 was a direct copy of the original Whittle jet.....A COPY." (Folks this is to easy,suckered this asshole right into the mix again.l.o.l.),shall I give you the improvements and updates that General Electric incorporated into this engine just as Packard did to the Merlin?? Here's a little slap upside the head for ya:....Currently the most feared fighter jet in the world is the American built F-22 Raptor. That's free.....no charge! :) lol.
lander4545 1 week ago
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@Aussiephil99 "BTW when the RAF evalauted to P-59 they thought it was a pile of shit and vastly inferior to the Britsh jets already flying." Please site one source to back up that statement! Here's were you got most of your technology....free from the U.S.A...ready?... Lend-Lease and ....ready? ....The Marshall Plan. You got cash 'cause by 1942 you were bankrupt and you got good 'ole American technology! ...free...you were so "smart" Churchhill came begging for help! Your welcome!
lander4545 1 week ago
@Aussiephil99 "Until the BRITISH modified the airframe and put a Merlin in it...the rest is history....much of the credit for it success must go to the BRITISH!!!!!!!!!".........Now that I have proved @Aussiephil99 totally enept at providing any factual historical guidence here is what the official British Air Ministry said when North American Aviation and Ronnie Harker (Rolls Royce service liason pilot) wanted to mate the American built Packard V-1650-1 into the P-51's airframe,
lander4545 1 week ago
@Aussiephil99 ......(Note: No actual Rolls Royce Merlin built engine was ever put into a manufactured P-51 Mustang,they were ALL Packard built!) Putting the Packard into the Mustang would draw valuable resources away from getting the Mk.IX into the frontline to combat the Luftwaffe's potent new threat-the Focke-Wulf Fw 190. The British Air Ministry would not approve and that there would not be any engines available anyhow as they were all reguired for the Spitfire (by this time ...
lander4545 1 week ago
@lander4545 Packard built Merlin engines under licence from Rolls Royce. The engine is still a British design! The p51-D airframe was a British design. The teardrop canopy was British.
noonsight2010 6 days ago
@Aussiephil99 .....the American built,updated and improved Packard engines were going into the Spitfires)-and why waste time on an untried American built aeroplane. ....end of quote! You see folks British arrogance is a state of mind,they simply believe that they are better than everybody at anything! .....It sure is fun having the factual documents to prove them wrong!....Notice how fast @Aussiephil wanted to get away from the Mustang and draw me into other arguments as he .....
lander4545 1 week ago
@Aussiephil99 ....was confronted with factual historical data for the first time! The British had absolutely NO input into the design OR development of the Mustang. The Packard engine was light years ahead of the British Rolls Royce version.The British did come up with the idea of wanting a new plane to cover the faults of the Spitfire and North American did deliver even engineering the "light weight" Mustang that reached speeds of 495 m.p.h.,.....the rest is documented history! ;)
lander4545 1 week ago
@lander4545 However, the spit was awesome.
TheRedDal3k 1 week ago
@TheRedDal3k Yes, I agree it was an awesome fighter! But it did have flaws. But the P-51 Mustang did indeed fix the "faults" of the Spitfire. That is why the British Air ministry had ask North American Aviation to come up with a new fighter......the P-51 Mustang.
lander4545 1 week ago
@Aussiephil99 Here's another little bit of history for you. When Bernard Montgomery finally (Britain kept replacing failing comanders in the North African campaign against Erwin Rommel) defeated the Germans in North Africa he did it useing American built Grant and Sherman tanks! The U.S. had a total dominating presence through intelligence, military hardware and technologies ,but you'll NEVER hear a Brit admit it!....jealous pricks! Your welcome,need anything else??;)
lander4545 1 week ago
@lander4545 You seem quite a patriot. But you are getting carried away with all the hype.- you need to get your facts right. The P-51 was an outstanding aircraft, but it was developed using the technology that was available at the time. A lot of that technology was learnt from the British, who had designed the 'Spit' 4 years earlier. The yanks learned from our mistakes, but at the same time took the 'plus points' from it. - So dont preach that the British had no input into the design of th P-51
njmitchell641 1 week ago
@njmitchell641"The P-51 was an outstanding aircraft, but it was developed using the technology that was available at the time. A lot of that technology was learnt from the British," Please explain from an engineering standpoint and your sources,I just hope your not another Brit passing on more folklore?
lander4545 1 week ago
@njmitchell641 The British had absolutley NO input into the design of P-51 Mustang. All the British Air Ministry did was to give North American Aviation the "specs" of what they were looking for in a new fighter. That first prototype was the NA-73X of which North American Aviation president James H. "Dutch" Kindelberger gave lead designer Edgar Schmued the go ahead to put together a design team. The design of the NA-73X had NO British input as did NONE of the succeeding........
lander4545 1 week ago
@lander4545 The NA-73x was a prototype airframe that was designed by North American Aviation using British specs (and with your own design input),. Its power plant (Allison V) was not really 'up to the job'. So a better engine from Packhard was designed, built under Rolls R licence......... ie, a copy of it, - with improvements! .........So the British DID have input into the design of the P51D version of the Mustang. You obviously know a great deal about P51s, but please dont patronise me!
njmitchell641 1 week ago
@njmitchell641.......lander says......." So a better engine from Packhard was designed, built under Rolls R licence"..........the facts are it was never an American idea to put a Merlin in a Mustang it wasa BRITISH idea. AND the engine wasn't DESGINED by PACKARD IT WAS DESIGED BY ROLLS ROYCE THAT WHY IT WAS CALLED A MERLIN who the fuck does he think he's kidding!!
Aussiephil99 1 week ago
@Aussiephil99 Stop your crying! Since I can't give you my data Google Packard V-1650 and on to Wikipedia. Look to the right at the picture of the Packard V-1650. At the bottom of the picture what does it say?........Developed from: Rolls Royce Merlin! ;).......The greatest obstacle to learning anything is thinking you already know everything!............you have not and cannot provide any sources for your rants. Folklorish lip service doesn't cut it! ;)
lander4545 1 week ago
@njmitchell641 the Packard V-1650 Merlin was not anything close to the Ultimate Merlin and was merely a licence built copy of a series 60 Rolls Royce Merlin with modifications to suit high altitude escory work of the P-51....that's all.......it's a BRITISH engine. Just because a Toyota Corrolla is built in The US doesn't make it a US car
Aussiephil99 1 week ago
@Aussiephil99 The Toyota Corolla isn't licensed out to any other manufacturer and is built by Toyota in a plant owned by Toyota. You example is an Oxymoron! ;)
lander4545 1 week ago
@lander4545 An oxymoron is a self-contradictory term, such as "'Sun' reader" or "Military intelligence", whereas you are just a moron.
noonsight2010 6 days ago
@noonsight2010 .....Landers basic argument is that in the case of the Packard Merlin .....a licence built version of something was designed by the people constructing it under licence..........which even a complete moron could see is ridiculous.....clearly he is a moron.
Aussiephil99 6 days ago
@Aussiephil99 Facts are facts boys and I know you've seen them...........now getting you to admit it and swallow your pride........well,thats another story! ;)
lander4545 6 days ago
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lander4545 6 days ago
@noonsight2010 Thank you,you just explained to the world your lack of knowledge AND terms of the American built AND designed P-51 Mustang! ;) lol.
lander4545 6 days ago
@lander4545 The P51-D was a British design. Earlier marks were American built and designed but the Allison engine was specified by the British. You have a computer. Research it! You really are an imbecile.
noonsight2010 6 days ago
@noonsight2010 Who was the British design team of the P-51 Mustang. What was the lead designers name? I'll accept anything for proof! A British design drawing? A sketch on a tissue?.........ANYTHING?? (To the folks in the know,this attitude is exactly how the british have gotten there assess in a jam before)......Remember just because it sounds good and makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside does't make it the truth! .......Coffee shop consultants need not apply! lol. ;)
lander4545 6 days ago
@lander4545 an NAA team lead by Schmeud and Rice designed the Mustang to specs. from British Purchasing Commission headed by Sir Henry Self, with significant input from Sir Wilfred Freeman. Capt. Eric brown, RN chief Test Pilot is a likely candidate for suggesting the Merlin. He reviewed the Mustang at the RAE. In Jan '43 Col. Mark Bradley was sent to England to collect teardrop canopy technology for Mustang. E W Hive lead the Rolls Royce team which perfected the Merlin.
noonsight2010 6 days ago
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@noonsightIn "Jan '43 Col. Mark Bradley was sent to England to collect teardrop canopy technology for Mustang." Ah,no.........the first American fighter the tear drop canopy went on was the P-47 Thunderbolt. The Mustang canopy came after the P-47 47 was fiited with it. "E W Hive lead the Rolls Royce "an NAA team lead by Schmeud and Rice designed the Mustang to specs. from British Purchasing Commission" Ah,no...... And the "design team" that designed the p-51?
lander4545 5 days ago
@lander4545 In fact, as suggested by another poster below, the test pilot who suggested fitting a Merlin into the Mustang was Ronnie Harker. He had been a Rolls Royce liasion pilot pre-war and went into RAF operational service, then to return to test duties. He was invited to test the Mustang in April 1942 and as a result propsed the Merlin. The first Merlins fitted to the Mustang were in P51-Bs in 1942.
noonsight2010 6 days ago
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@lander4545 To repeat,you dont have to be a designer to produce a specification for the P-51, The Americans did the designing,- it just had to meet a certain British criteria. Lander, without sounding patronising, if you were Henry Ford and i was the client and i asked you to produce a car with a 4.7L engine, exceeds 150mph and must cane Ferrari's arse on a race track......you may come up with the GT40?. - This doesnt make me a designer does it? -But i would have a huge input in the design!
njmitchell641 5 days ago
@njmitchell641 By the way......the first chassis that was built for the Ford GT40 in 1963 was built in Coventry, England.
njmitchell641 5 days ago
@njmitchell641 Hey,you forgot to mention the Ford/Cosworth! lol.
lander4545 5 days ago
@lander4545 I was gonna save that for another day lol
njmitchell641 4 days ago
@noonsight2010 Typical school behavior when you can't get your way,start name calling!
lander4545 5 days ago
@lander4545 You,ve been given "chapter and verse" on the history of the Mustang and you still do not accept it. It was built to British specs (which the early marks failed to reach), had British Merlin engines from 1942 starting with the P51-B as proposed by RAF test pilot Ronnie Harker, and had the British teardrop canopy and consequential airframe/fuselage modifications after Col. Bradley was given the details in January 1943 when he came to England for that purpose.
noonsight2010 5 days ago
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@noonsight2010 The bubble canopy was a British product built by R. Malcom & CO. L.T.D.........you are correct!...........good job on the research! "You,ve been given "chapter and verse" on the history of the Mustang and you still do not accept it." No... I came into this discussion "chaptered and versed"your still in the learning stages but at least your finally doing some indepth research which is all one can ask. Did you find those British designers of the P-51 yet?? ......
lander4545 5 days ago
@noonsight2010 A British built Rolls Royce Merlin engine never went into a production built P-51 Mustang. On the other hand the American built Packard V-1650 did go into your Spitfires,Mosquito and Lancaster bombers. I'm wait awhile longer while you research the British P-51 design team. From some of your accusation comments we must be having a cultural divide of some sort because I never said the "bubble canopy" or that the British built "Merlins" weren't British.
lander4545 5 days ago
@lander4545 The merlin was a British design. I know those in the Mustang were US Built. By Packard under licence from Rolls Royce. So from the P-51 D to at least the P51-D marks, there were Britrish designed engines. Vickers and others built far more Spitfires than the tiny Supermarine company ever could. Under licence. They were still Supermarine Spitfires. You have stated there was no British input into the Mustang. You contradict yourself. It was full of British technology.
noonsight2010 5 days ago
@noonsight2010 "You have stated there was no British input into the Mustang. You contradict yourself ". Once again.....Ah,no........There was NO British design nor any design specs presented by the British for the first P-51 Mustang prototypes "AIRFRAME" nor any subsequent design changes thereafter. Any and ALL design changes to the production Mustang were done by Edgar Schmued and his design team!..................Here is the REAL story of the P-51-Mustang from BRITISH data .....
lander4545 1 day ago
@noonsight2010 ........which corresponds with the data I have from North American Aviation.... Initially the British Air Ministry wanted the P-40 Tomahawk produced by the Curtiss-Wright Corporation fom Buffalo,New York. Because of the large order that the British Purchasing Commisission had put in for the P-40,Curtiss-Wright could not fill the order. The British Air Ministry had been purchaing the North American NA-16 (at-16 Texan) trainer in 1938 to train there pilots for ....
lander4545 1 day ago
@noonsight2010 ....the Royal Air Force and other Commonwealth air forces,so they knew of the excellent quality coming from North American Aviation. With that in mind they asked North American to build the P-40 under license but with the test data from the New Curtiss-Wright XP-46. (This plane looks alot loke the P-51 prototype). The British were impressed with the XP-46! North American Aviaton management team decided that it would be much more beneficial to the company to ....
lander4545 1 day ago
@noonsight2010 ....create there own fighter design (corporate ego's were availible in 1940 also lol.) to present to the R.A.F. North American Aviation bought the specs from the XP-46 from Curtiss-Wright for $56,000 dollars. Those specs included data covering a comprehensive series of wind tunnel,cooling,and performance tests. This data is what North American Aviation used in the design and manufacture of the P-51 prototype. Hence... no British input. Here is the letter from .....
lander4545 1 day ago
@noonsight2010 ....North American's Lee Atwood to Sir Henry Self of the purchasin commision dated May 1,1940. "In accordance with our understanding,we are proceeding with the design of a single seat fighter,our model NA-73,incorporating an Allison engine and fitted with provisions and armament as detailed more completely hereunder. "We have reached an extremely satisfactory agreement with the Curtiss Aeroplane Company of Buffalo (New York) wherein they are furnishing to us data ..
lander4545 1 day ago
@noonsight2010 ...covering a comprhensive series of wind tunnel,cooling,and performance tests of a similar plane (the XP-46),which data will assist us in the design and manufacture and export of these airplanes and wish to assure you that all arrangements are entirely satisfactory."We are prepared to contruct and deliver to you 320 of these airplanes before September 30,1941. and gurantee to effect these deliveries with the following schedule.....(this letter continues for two ..
lander4545 1 day ago
@noonsight2010 ...more pages) The total cost for the initial P-51 Mustang to the British Purchaing Commision was for $14,746,964.35! So,the initial P-51 Mustangs "specs" came from the Curtiss-Wright Corporation of Buffalo New York and were NOT presented to North American Aviation from the British Air Ministry no the British purchaing Commision or any other British entity. Those are some of the documented facts I have on the arrival of the P-51 Mustang! As a WW11 buff I have ....
lander4545 1 day ago
@noonsight2010 ....alot of data from WW11 planes. (Don't get me started on Battleships! lol.) I also have the data on how the Rolls Royce Merlin/Packard V-1650 made it into the Mustang if you care to know? I will tell you this,the British Air Ministry did NOT want to do it! I will say that I admire Britain and in my opinion Sir Winston Churchill was the greatest statesman and ambassador EVER!
lander4545 1 day ago
@lander4545 There were several marks of P51. The P51-D, the "classic" Mustang was a British design and very different to the earlier marks. Those earlier marks were American designed and produced with Allison engines as specified by the British for whom they were primarily intended. You really do not know anything about the subject. There is no excuse as you evidently have internet access, so do some research!
noonsight2010 6 days ago
@noonsight2010 Get ready it's a coming. Keep up the good work! lol. ;) Probably will post tonight when I get home from work. Keep researching ,cause your not even close! l.o.l
lander4545 6 days ago
@lander4545 So many publications and internet sources and tv documentaries must be so wrong according to you.
noonsight2010 6 days ago
@njmitchell641 Documented facts are not my ideas nor any of my input so if your going to complain about being "patronized" aim it at the historians!
lander4545 1 week ago
@njmitchell641 The Allison engine was an excellent engine. The Allison V-1710-87 was exactly the right engine for the Mustang's initial combat mission. The engine mated to the Mustang was originally for low level ground attack. In fact it was heavily armed,highly maneuverable,had very good range,and could really get moving at altitudes below 10,000 feet,in fact it was capable of outrunning anything flown by the RAF or the Luftwaffe at or below that altitude!............
lander4545 1 week ago
@lander4545 You have misread my message - i quoted that the (Allison V) was not really 'up to the job'.- i never said that it wasnt any good! You correctly admitted that it was not very good at high altitudes. Hence why a different power plant was opted for.
njmitchell641 1 week ago
@njmitchell641 Correct! Britain specified the Allison engine in the P51 before the British designed P51-D was fitted with the Packard Merlin as the Allison was poor at high altitude, leaving early P51 marks best for ground attack roles.
noonsight2010 6 days ago
@lander4545 The Mustang failed in it's intended role as a fighter and was relegated to army co-operation roles at low level as it did not perform to the British specifications until re-engined with the Merlin. So in fact the Allison was far from the right engine, although it was specified by the British.
noonsight2010 5 days ago
@njmitchell641 ........as the war proggressed combat missions were fought at higher altitudes and the Allison not haveing a "high altitude supercharger" didn't perform well at those altitudes,so thats were the Rolls Royce Merlin comes into play. My data tells me that all of the changes to the Mustangs design,and there were many,came about by wind tunnel testing data at North American Aviation,there engineers,there test pilots and combat pilots.
lander4545 1 week ago
@lander4545 So teardrop canopies were not British? The US did not have the technolgy to produce them and sent Colonel Mark Bradley from the US to England in January 1943 to collect the technical details. Merlin engines were not British?
Former Rolls Royce liasion pilot Ronnie Harker, in his role as an RAF test pilot tested the Mustang in 1942 and proposed the Merlin engine. The P51-B was the first mark to have the Merlin, in 1942.
noonsight2010 5 days ago
@lander4545 MERLIN - ROLLS ROYCE. BRITISH DESIGN. A major input into the development of the P51 as suggested by British RAF test pilot Ronnie Harker in 1942.
noonsight2010 5 days ago
@njmitchell641 ...design upgrades. All of that work was done by Edgar Schmued and his design team.The Packard Car Company didn't know much about airplanes but they did know engineering,so they updated,improved and modernized from an engineering stand point the Rolls Royce Merlin.From the concept of that engine they developed the Packard v-1650.Research everything a mentioned and you'll find it to be ALL factual. Some folks like "@Aussiephil99",as they say,"Can't handle the truth"!
lander4545 1 week ago
@lander4545 The truth? - The facts are, that Britain and the USA shared technologies, like allies should when fighting a common foe. The British were miles ahead of the USA when it came to ASDIC, RADAR, SONAR, aircraft design, codebreaking etc.(we had to be, we were at war 3 years before your guys stepped in to help us) Whilst the Americans were better at tank design, ship building, and mass production. So when will you admit that the Brits had a major impact on the American war machine?
njmitchell641 1 week ago 2
@njmitchell641 Oh! and by the way, i realise we would have lost the war if the USA hadnt steeped in. Just in case you feel the urge to remind me!.........But then if we had fallen, the Americans wouldnt have had that little 'stepping stone' we call 'Blighty' to launch an offensive against the Axis!
njmitchell641 1 week ago
@njmitchell641 The term "Blighty" is just a "feel good" term one incorporates to substantiate an inferiority complex.,which is fine if it makes one feel better ;)......but the fact of the matter is by 1942 Britain was out of hope,bankrupt and begging the American's for help above and beyond "Lend/Lease. The Americans "stepping stone" as you put it, was the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor and our manufacturing base which was far more advanced than Britains! ;)
lander4545 1 week ago
@lander4545 The US manufacturing base was larger than Britain's, certainly not more advanced. During WW2 Britian gave the USA the jet engine, radar, the cavity magnetron and developed poor US aircraft into superb fighters, such as the Vought Corsair and P521-D Mustang - a British design. We also gave the USA all of it's aircraft carrier technology - the steam catapault, angled flight deck and landing guidance signals. After WW2, supersonic flight (Bell x-1 based on Miles aircraft), VTOL etc.
noonsight2010 6 days ago
@lander4545 So if we have 'Nicknames' for something, it translates to having an inferiority complex does it?? - ok, thanks for that! - Where does that leave 'The Big Apple' ?
njmitchell641 6 days ago
@njmitchell641 "codebreaking" The British didn't break the enigma code if that's whay you are reffering to : That goes to the Polish mathematicians of the Polish Cipher Bureau". .(we had to be, we were at war 3 years before your guys stepped in to help us)", We saved Britain begining March 11,1941 with "Lend-Lease". Americans weren't in a joyous mood in 1939 to help Britain's warmongering ways. You declared war on Germany...we didn't! The Japenese bombing of Pearl Harbor is ....
lander4545 1 week ago
@lander4545 The Poles invented the "enigma" machine to prevent industrial espionage. Polish code-breakers gave the British a strong lead into breaking enigma but it was Alan Turing with the "bomb" electro-mechanical computers and later Tommy Flowers with "Colossus", the first programmable electronic computer, at Bletchley Park who facilitated reliable and constant breaking of enigma. The irony was the enigma machine was fully detailed in files in London Patent Office, found too late after WW2!
noonsight2010 6 days ago
@lander4545 Your right, the Poles showed us 'a way in' on how to decipher Enigma. But prior to the outbreak of ww2, the German military decided to add a plugboard and rotors. Hence we couldnt decrypt any messages. - Without Polish input we wouldnt have 'broken it'. But my friend, - it was Bletchley Park who 'cracked' the codes! - ........Do you accept anything that the Brits did during the war years was of any good? or are you anti British?
njmitchell641 6 days ago
@njmitchell641 Not anti British at all. As a matter of fact I admire Britain. But when presented with documented historical facts you Brits seem to go bonkers!! Shall I say egotistical??
lander4545 6 days ago
@lander4545 Bonkers..No ...Egotistical... Maybe, but we have a lot of historical facts that have been presented to us Brits. Some may have been lost or misrepresented with time. But most of those were in the days when it was carried through word of mouth (fables) and not recorded through depiction, documentation or film even........but then Hollywood is guilty of being egotistical more than anything, in the US.......Who knows, kids in the future may believe Tom Cruise was a genuine fighter ace!
njmitchell641 5 days ago
@njmitchell641 I sense that you are at least somewhat logical. You've done some good research. @nimitchell641 is to vindictive of the facts and @Aussiephil99 is COMPLETELY gone! His idea of research is to lock on the caps and proclaim, "ITS BRITISH!!!! ITS BRITISH!!!!! L.O.L. Any luck on the British design team for the P-51 Mustang??;) Will post the data tomorrow as it requires alot of typing and am little tired after a long day in the engineering dept.
lander4545 5 days ago
@njmitchell641 ....is what led America into being the "arsenal of democracy" in WW11 it certainly wasn't the British. Now getting back to the P-51. The British had absolutley NO design input on the P-51....NOTHING....not from the prototype and up to and including the last one built. If you don't agree please provide me with the British designer or the design team. Don't fall into the @Aussiephil99 trap of just saying things because it sounds and feels good!
lander4545 1 week ago
@lander4545 The P51-D was a British design. The teardrop canopy, shortened fuselage and Rolls Royce Merlin engine (Packard built under licence) were British. The P51-A was conceived and built for supply to Britain and the British specified the Allison engine.
noonsight2010 6 days ago
@lander4545 You dont have to be a designer to produce a specification for an aircraft, The Americans did the designing, - it just had to meet a certain British criteria at the time. So i dont see how you can deny that the British had no input into the design or performance of the Mustang.
njmitchell641 6 days ago
@njmitchell641 Absolutely. Britain gave a vast asmount of technology to the USA as Imentioned in another post. Post war we gave supersonic flight technology and the microwave oven to the USA. The US benefitted enormously from British technology and still had the cheek to take cash as well in war repayments. The US were and are good at logistics, but were not great innovators prior to or during WW2. US tanks were inferior to later war British tanks such as Comet which matched nearly anything.
noonsight2010 6 days ago
@noonsight2010 i agree, we shared technologies too cheaply in the post war years.
njmitchell641 6 days ago
@njmitchell641 u know ur right... i mean we won either way i mean all we could do is rly just shake hands... we owe you guys and you us... thats how i see it no nation is better or anything like that... we are equal... we are allies plain and simple
metallicarox15 5 days ago
@metallicarox15 Yep! - couldnt agree more. The P-51 was a great example of Anglo/US relations producing a wonderful airplane.
njmitchell641 4 days ago
@lander4545 ..........yawn yawn yawn....grow up little boy
Aussiephil99 1 week ago
@Aussiephil99 If the truth hurts your British pride than don't start an argument that your not qualified to cover, you can lie the facts but you can't hide them.ol.;)
lander4545 1 week ago
@lander4545 .......ha ha ha even your fellow countrymen think you're a tool!!!
Aussiephil99 1 week ago
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@Aussiephil99 ".......ha ha ha even your fellow countrymen think you're a tool!!!" @njmitchell641""The yanks learned from our mistakes" Ah,no.......that would be from your fellow countryman!...Can't comprehend anything correctly can you.......that explains everything!;) lol.
lander4545 1 week ago
@liambloemendaal ...Lander4545 knows nothing. He continually reverts back to waffling on about Packard...it's the only book he's read. It obviously really upsets him that far and away the best US aircraft of the war would have been ordinary had the British not stepped in and modified it. I've given up arguing with him. I have better things to do.
Aussiephil99 1 week ago
@Aussiephil99 "...Lander4545 knows nothing. He continually reverts back to waffling on about Packard...it's the only book he's read." Ahahahah.....you started the argument about my knowledge of the P-51 and you subsequently got your ass handed to you. AND when I presented you with documented historical facts you couldn't get out of the room fast enough. Do you think I was going to let you stray from your pig headed folkloric fantasies! ;)..............
lander4545 1 week ago
@Aussiephil99 ..............and the engine in the first American fighter jet was the General Electric J31. The Bell P-59 Air Comet first flew on Oct.1, 1942.;) ..............notice @liambloemendaal didn't respond to you? He also knows your a know nothing loud mouth looking for trouble! Go troll another site........you've been had!
lander4545 1 week ago
@lander4545 .....once again showing your massive intellect....NOT!! The GE J31 was a direct copy of the original Whittle jet.....A COPY. Your 'wonderful' sabre of the Korean war had a direct copy of a Rolls Royce Nene !!!!! I suggest you educate yourself.....your embarrassing yourself and your country
Aussiephil99 1 week ago
@Aussiephil99 Time to take your rose-colored glasses off and kiss mommie nite,nite! As a Brit your screwed. You guys are so fucked up your head of the 2012 Olympics security left the security details for the games on a train and some loving Brit turned it in to the tabloids! Aahahahahah! Oh,ya I'll feel safe at those games.................NOT!! Shall we (the Americans) come bail you out once again?? Ahahahahah! :)
lander4545 1 week ago
@lander4545 The British gave the jet engine to both the USA and to Russia. The MiG 15 had a copy of the Rolls Royce Nene engine taken from two (sic) originals sent to Russia.
noonsight2010 6 days ago
@Aussiephil99 Aside from the British designed P51-D, the Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm developed the poor Vought Corsair into the superb fighter it became.
noonsight2010 6 days ago
@noonsight2010 .......yes the Corsair had a high accident rate with the US. It was the Royal Navy....and the Royal New Zealand Airforce in the pacific that showed the Americans how to fly the Corsair!!!!
Aussiephil99 6 days ago
@Aussiephil99 And angled approach runs onto carriers to land them safely
njmitchell641 5 days ago
@njmitchell641 ........yes and the angled flight deck seen on virtually all carriers these days....including American super carriers was a British post war invention.
Aussiephil99 4 days ago
@liambloemendaal "when did US jets come to life....ah yes.....1945." Ah,no.......The first U.S. fighter jet was the Bell P-59 Aira Comet and first flew on Oct.1, 1942.
lander4545 1 week ago