J. C. Ryle, Blogrich55, John Mac Arthur (SANCTIFICATION)

[TCMAO0]

I teach what Ryle and MacArthur teach (as far as I know). Find me a quote by either of these men that say... Oh, Christians can intentionally sin as much as they want and still go to heaven. Find any legitimate teacher that teaches such heresy! I dare you!

[jforsy01]

"Yes, someone says, but can't Christians put themselves outside God's grace? What about those who commit abominable sins? Don't they nullify the work of redemption in themselves? Don't they forfeit the love of God? Certainly not ... it's preposterous to think that we can forfeit it [salvation] by anything we do" (John MacArthur, Jr., The Love of God, Word Publishing, 1996, p. 159

[TCMAO0]

@jforsy01 I see your issue with that! And the point is that if a truly born-again person were to sin intentionally they would be lost. But that is a strawman. John MacArthur is saying that such a person never could exist in the universe that God has created. God has prevented it sovereignly from happening. The born-again never intentionally sins. PERIOD. END OF STORY!

[TCMAO0]

You are a liar... Go ahead and post my comments. Let the world see that I have never ever taught sinless perfectionism. I merely differentiated between intentional sin and unintentional. A true saint no longer intentionally sins. That is not the same thing as never sinning at all. Get the details right, would you!?

[Haukman66]

Oh, I am a liar? Remember your comments I posted on your page, after you were harassing me? You know, the ones you erased rather quickly? Or did you forget them?

I have never stated, that we will be sinless. I have never stated, that we can go on sinning.

You on the other hand, like to, in a Pharisaical manner, point out splinters in your brothers eye, while the plank in your own is blinding you. You remember, calling me all kinds of names for no reason about a month ago?

[TCMAO0]

@Haukman66 You are imagining things. I only posted what was relevant and true. You were the one pointing out faults of mine. So, let's try it again, now. Right here.  Do you think a person can continue to intentionally sin and still be assured of heaven despite their ungodly behavior. Or, is it always true that one puts the deeds of the flesh to death as a result of being born-again?

[Haukman66]

@TCMA0o, you know, it might help, if you hit that little "reply" button, on the comment you are responding to, as that makes it easier to know, that you have replied to ME.

I have stated from the beginning, that the true regenerate, born again believer, will turn from their sins. Their sin that they use to love, they now hate. They are a new creation. But will they be sinless? No. You seem to think that just because you are a Christian, that you dont sin intentionaly. Got verses for this?

[TCMAO0]

@Haukman66 Do you really think I don't have good reasons from the Holy Writ that led me to this conclusion? Anyway, the kind of intentional sin I am talking about that true believers avoid is one where going into it they know it is a sin and with malice aforethought they still hate God enough to go through with it all the while thinking they are saved because they believe the gospel properly. I will after a good nite sleep post more on the Scriptural support.

[TCMAO0]

@Haukman66 Willfully sinning is to blaspheme God: "'But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or alien, blasphemes the Lord, and that person must be cut off from his people." Numbers 15:30

[TCMAO0]

@Haukman66 God does not change. The same applies in the New Testament: If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death. 1 John 5:16-17

[TCMAO0]

@TCMAO0 That last one is a real good way to explain why John says... "If we have no sin we are a LIAR". Yet, also says, "The child of God does not commit sin!" John differentiates between categories of sin. Do you??? The OT differentiates between categories of intentional v. intentional sin! But does your pastor teach that? Isn't this just another example of slackness in the modern church?!

[TCMAO0]

@Haukman66 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Romans 7:15-19

[TCMAO0]

@TCMAO0 Catch the phrase... it is no longer I myself who do it - hmm sounds like this is in the category of sinning yet not sinning at the same time. Which is properly understood that the born-again person has a split personality (to put in in worldly terms) the new child of God does not commit sin! This agrees with 1 John - what harmony!

[TCMAO0]

@Haukman66 You hypocrite... We both made comments for the world to see on the video that started our argument (Biblical Assurance by Gordon H. Clark) but where are all those after the THEOLOGY MATTERS 101 COVER-UP. What does the bible say about people who supress the truth? Let's look at those comments if you still have them.

[Haukman66]

@TCMAo0, I'm not even talking about comments on that particular video. I'm talking about you spamming my channel with your harassment, because I didnt agree with you. Remember, I had to block you? My comment about that very thing, is still on your page, unless you have removed it.

As far as the supposed "cover up", comments were blocked, after Redbeetle and his posse were saying some crude things. So Dwayne blocked the comments. Had nothing to do with you. Get over yourself!

[TCMAO0]

@Haukman66 I never said it had anything to do with me. The cover-up is an example of unintentional sin toward me on your part since I needed those comments to disprove your charges. I never spammed you and you didn't HAVE TO block me. You just were being evasive about it all. I have always wanted to know what it is you are taking exception to.

[TCMAO0]

@Haukman66 Intentional sins could not be atoned for by sacrifice in the Old Testament of the Bible. Intentional, deliberate, willful sins such as sacrificing children to the demon god Molech, consulting mediums or spiritists, cursing father or mother, and committing adultery or other sexual misconduct were punishable by death (Leviticus 20).

[TCMAO0]

I can shed some light on this. There is a group within the Calvinist camp that views sanctification in the same legal sense as justification. In other words, the Christian who believes is already sanctified. The attitude of these immature people is... Don't worry about sin and mortification of the flesh... It is all finished.... Just believe... Don't expend a lot of effort avoiding sin like the plague. This is antinomianism.

[Haukman66]

TCMAO0, get your facts straight before spreading your heresies. We are saying the same thing Ryle is saying. Those who God justifies, He will sanctify. But it seems to be "heresy" these days to even bring up Sanctification. Or even mention obedience to Christ, or the 10 commandments. We have never said, that doing these things are what justifies. All we have said, is that the one who is justified, will be sanctified. Period.

[TCMAO0]

@Haukman66 I am saying the same thing as Ryle, and MacArthur. So are you calling them heretics? What is your problem, Haukman66? Are you producing 30 fold fruit or are you just running around youtube accusing people of heresy? God's power justifies and sanctifies it is all grace (100%). But it causes people to live very, very holy lives if they are born-again.

[1689Baptist]

TCMAO0

We are trying to pull you back,it is great to have a zeal for Christ but you cant set a number on how many works you have to have or you are not saved. When Jesus said 30 fold He did not mean 300% (btw how do you measure that?) all He meant was is there will be fruit some more than others. As Paul Washer said "if I would lose my faith tomorrow, and could only get up enough strength to sit on the back pew, God would love me no less".

[TCMAO0]

@1689Baptist It was Jesus who said that you would have 3000% more works than anyone who just claims to be a Christian. And this is consitent with the general message of Paul Washer, John MacArthur, and Mark Kielar (3 of the most honest people when it comes to this aspect of the bible). The point isn't that you can count works. The point is that among all the false professer's of the faith you will have some that are obviously true Christians. I have met many at all, though.

[TCMAO0]

@TCMAO0 I meant to say I haven't met many who make me do a double take and say... Wow look at all that fruit/works!

[Haukman66]

@TCMAO0, we have seen your "fruit". Should we post some of your last comments from about a month ago? I wouldnt call them "biblical".

And no, I am not calling Mac, or Ryle heretics. They teach the same as we do. Remember, they dont teach that sinless perfection heresy, you are trying to spread.

[DefendingTheTruth]

To: 1689Baptist and Blogrich55,

Both of you are precious brothers in the Lord, and I love you both.

-You both believe we are justified by faith alone.

-You both believe that all who are justified will also be sanctified.

-You both believe that good works are the result of salvation, not the cause.

This endless arguing over words is fruitless.

Is this division bringing honor to the Lord? I think it's time to move on past this. :-)

If I am wrong, please tell me why.

God bless you both.

[1689Baptist]

DefendingTheTruth

Thats why I want to get this hammered out.

I dont think I had a wrong spirit in this video.

Blogrich has made videos against MacArthur for saying the same thing IMO.

[DefendingTheTruth]

@1689Baptist,

I do not think you had the wrong spirit in the video.

But, until we all can define "Lordship Salvation" the same way, this pointless arguing will continue.

You believe Lordship Salvation teaches that God sanctifies those who he justifies.

He believes that Lordship Salvation teaches that men are saved by works.

These are two very different definitions of Lordship Salvation. And that is why this debate is still raging. In reality, you both believe the same thing.

[Haukman66]

Amen Jeff. Glad you put this one up. BlogRich, told me to read it too, and to my surprise, it refutes his stance. Ryle says, exactly what MacArthur says!

"Genuine sanctification will show itself in habitual respect to God's law, and habitual effort to live in obedience to it as the rule of life. There is no greater mistake than to suppose that a christian has nothing to do with the law and the 10 commandments, because he cannot be justified by keeping them."-page 26.

Hmmm.........

[Blogrich55]

@Haukman66 So would you mind telling me EXACTLY how this contradicts what I have always taught? Mac does NOT say the same thing as Ryle. To say God NEVER sanctifies someone who He has not justified (Ryle and I) is NOT the same as saying:

"God will not justify those He does not sanctify."

GOSPEL ACCORDING TO JESUS pg 198

John MacArthur jr

All Ryle was saying is that the two things are inseparable. Mac makes it look as if justification DEPENDS on sanctification when it is the other way around

[Haukman66]

@Blogrich55 Did you not see what I just said above? Ryle believes Christians will strive to keep the law. And notice, he uses the term "Obedience"? Hmm...now isnt that heresy according to you? However, you and your posse, go running around calling people heretics, who even mention the law!! LOL. As far as the quote, they say the same thing, basically. But you must condemn. You are too influenced by Monte. We've seen his fruit. But I will be praying for you.

[Blogrich55]

@Haukman66 You have TOTALLY misrepresented me here. Have you seen NONE of my videos against atheism where I claim the Bible is our axiom and that God's laws determine what is or is NOT moral? When have I EVER called Ryle's position heresy? As to my POSSE, you think we are some kind of a cult blindly following Monty. What a joke! I was reading Clark LONG before I knew Monty. I was preaching the gospel before hw was born. Sadly YOU can't even see the difference in the statements in the video :(

[Haukman66]

@Blogrich55 I have misrepresented you? Maybe you should take a look in the mirror my friend. You have done this to me, Jeff(1689Baptist), Dwayne And Jordan over and over again. How many times have you, along with your "Posse", twisted what we have said? You have spoken to us all on Skype, then the next day, put out a video, mocking us. How many vids have you made, twisting what Mac has said? As I have said, Ryle taught, the same as what Mac, and other LS advocates teach. ; )

[KarensFaith]

I don't get it either....I just can't figure them out.

Thanks for this. God bless you! 5 stars! :) And a favorite.

[bibliosca]

there is no difference of view here, as to the timing of them in conversion some have made a difference when they say they have not yet recieved the Spirit to have power to witness or the 2nd blessing or the cornellius example.

i believe sanctification, justification and the recieving the Spirit all happen at conversion, how else could we be saved.we need all Gods saving at once.

there are times of being filled with the Spirit and other times of doubt as with all the saints and Elijahs caveetc

[MustardSeedish]

I really don't get what all the fuss is all about either.

[callofchrist]

seems a perception difference rather than deep doctrinal rift IMHO... but what do i know?

[1689Baptist]

callofchrist

Thats what I think.

[TCMAO0]

@1689Baptist No! It is a deep rift! Because The Beetle Gang are antiChrist!

[APSOC38]

@MustardSeedish IIRC, the guys at TheologyMatters101 supposedly made claims that Gordon Clark was in line with their views on Lordship Salvation. Well, that touched a nerve with Monty Collier aka RedBeetle. Ever since then, they've been going back and forth, and it's gotten heated at times.

If I've gotten my facts wrong, then I apologize. What I can say is that there's been some drama in the Reformed Camp, and it hasn't been pretty.

[TCMAO0]

@APSOC38 That's because not everyone who calls themselves Reformed actually is!