Bill Kynes -Why can't women be elders?

[elinikk]

@MrCava1ier What you are doing, that is called twisting scripture MrCava1ier. I will have no part.

[elinikk]

@MrCava1ier You must do a plain reading of the text. A metaphor is a metaphor and history is a history. You must apply some context to the text. Yes, Paul references creation, so he was also referencing the husband/wife relationship. So, to take this verse in reference a woman is not to upsurp the man in the husband/wife relationship. This has nothing to do with woman being pastors or elders!

[BigG99]

@elinikk yes but the bible is clear.. "women are not to have leadership over a man", and the bible specifically says not to "teach over a man", which is a place of authority and is the major role of a pastor Elder.. also the qualification of an elder/pastor spelled out in timothy is "husband of one wife".... seems to me that scripture is overwhelmingly clear on the subject that women are not to be pastors or elders.

[elinikk]

@BigG99 It is clear to you, but not the rest of us who do not twist scripture. You arguement is a waste of time, it has no eternal benifit.

[BigG99]

@elinikk well its clear to me because of 5 years of college theological training where i can study the bible properly and properly interpret it, just like youll see, john piper, rc sproul, john Mcarthur, the entire catholic church as well, agree with me. you say i twist scripture? you cant be more wrong my friend.. if thats the case then so does the majority of theologians in the pentecostal church. wake up buddy and study it will help.

[elinikk]

@BigG99 I have studied. I have study much of RC Spouls work. I not only know much of what the Catholic church has said, I believe that I am Catholic. Unfortunately many people have misinterpreted and twisted scripture. And especially on these gray areas which have no direct impact on being a Christian there is much opinion. So, if we must give value to the two scriptures that Paul gives to Timothy we must put them low. For we know that he was talking of the husband/wife relationship and

[elinikk]

@BigG99 ...and a social response to woman talking loudly in the church causing disruption. We must hold higher value to scriptures like I have said: Gal. 3:28 and Joel 2:29, Romans 8:1 (we don't condem woman for them being female!), Gal 3:26 (male and female we are all Son's of God), John 1:12 (we all become the Son's of God). So, looking at scripture as a whole, woman are allowed to teach and be elders. It is through our ignorance of scripture that these false doctrine become manifest.

[BigG99]

@elinikk also here you are again having a problem with understanding the roles of men and women and the value of en and women... do you believe that because a women isnt told to lead she is of less value. have you ever read the scripture where it says that men are to lead and women are to be helper.. what was the reason? because adam was made first and eve second it says.. so the scripture referes to the created order not a cultural distinctive to assume the roles of men and women.

[elinikk]

@BigG99 I understand the roles of men and woman. I also understand that you don't understand what I say.

[BigG99]

@elinikk My friend, i can see you love the lord and you love the scriptures.. but i must press in that if you believe that Women can be elders you are seriously scewing the biblical, historical, and spiritual truth. I just Preached on this subject and discussed it among a group of elders for a year. searching and studying the scriptures together. there can be no doubt apart from using the excuse of culture, that Women are not to teach men or lead over them, which is a distinctive of eldership.

[elinikk]

@BigG99 And I am sure that you were inspired by Wayne Gruden, that man has done more evil for the church then good. I am saddened that you spent a year on something so trivial to the gospel of Jesus Christ that only two twisted verses from the writtings of Paul to timothy in a contect that is obscure is its claim. What happened to truth and mercy. It is written that we beheld the only begotten of the Father full of grace and truth. Why not spend a year on these things instead?

[elinikk]

@BigG99 I think we can see who is screwing the biblical historical and spiritual truth! Did not Jesus go to the woman at the well and not only speak to that samaritan woman, but gave her life value. Did not Jesus allow Mary to be the first to see him after he rose from the dead? He was not even glorified to the father yet, meaning if she touched him it would all have been in vain. He valued her that much that he stopped to reasure her, yet you preached a year the rejection of woman!

[BigG99]

@elinikk your using a fallacy of theology. your saying that if a women cannot be an elder then she is somehow devalued. That is so so wrong.!!!! Jesus never said to the Samaritan women at the well that she should go lead a church. Nor was mary magdalen one of the 12 disciples but a helper . Just as God said to eve that Adam will tend the garden and she will be his helpmate. Its a beautiful, complimentary relationship. tell me, did jesus try to usurp the fathers role as head of the trinity?

[elinikk]

@BigG99 I am not saying that woman cannot be an elder, you are. I am not saying that a woman is devalued, you are.

Jesus could not have Mary Magdalen as a disciple because he travelled and slept with his disciples, it would have been improper even today with separate hotel rooms. You are confusing issues that are not related. There are social reasons that woman were not Elders at the time just like there were social issues why a woman could not have been a disciple. But they are different.

[elinikk]

@BigG99 I do not disagree that a woman can be the helpmate to the man under the covering of the man. In fact one of the scriptures that you take out of context is refering to that very thing, for woman to not upsurp her husband in the family!

It is written; "I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh". The all includes females. Men are not allowed to be leaders or speak for God, but the "oracle of God". "Your Sons and your Daughters will prophesy" (no distiction to gender by the Spirti).

[elinikk]

@BigG99 Further it is written "God is no respectors of persons" (Acts 10:34). God does not give respect to you or more distinction to you if you are old or young, rich or poor, educated or not, or Male or Female. We are each treated the same by God. God judges the heart, not that which is outwardly. If we are called to be Goddly why are you acting contrary to this and after the flesh?

[BigG99]

@elinikk oh dear.. i suppose ill let the majority of christians scholars agree with my position and leave it at that.. women have been given gifts to work in the church, they can lead other women and lead children. they can even speak boldly of Gods truth. But there role is not rule over men, not to teach over men, and not to lead men. This much is all clearly written in the bible and that in no way devalues a women under christ and in this world. i think only the spirit can reveal this to you

[elinikk]

@BigG99 The spirit has revealed this evil lie that you are pushing, to me! If woman are not to teach why was Prisca, called an apostle by Paul. The same is Pricilla who was the wife of Aquila. Of the seven times they are mentioned she is listed first five times. She with her husband also taugh Apollos in "a more excellent way". Just based on this your foul doctrine must be seriously questioned. The Holy Spirit can teach us all things, hopefully he will teach you the truth!

[BigG99]

@elinikk the spririt can teach us many things yes. as long as they conform to scripture because we know that the HS wrote scripture and the spirit that speaks to your heart cannot contradict the spirit that wrote the bible.. Priscilla was under her husbands authority and ministered according to the truth. As well an apostle is not the same as an elder. Did Priscilla have a sign of authority on her? absolutley, it was her husband. it is not a valid example of female eldership

[elinikk]

@BigG99 It is a valid example of female eldership. Paul wrote most of the new testament as an apostle, dictating who can be an elder or bishop, etc. So any apostle then is superior to the elder. The apostle is also allowed to speak and preach without requiring permission.

So there are many levels that you er on. Pricilla was the head of the church in her home based on the Greek method of putting the head persons name first in writting.

[BigG99]

@elinikk obsured.Paul calls himself a fellow elder in acts and he does not have authority over the elders but calls on them to obey scripture and teaching. the idea that putting the greek name first implies leadership, I have never heard the principle in all of me greek studies at university. you are flatly ignorning the numerous passages that deal with male headship and leadership, pointing back to the fall of eve as the reason and the created order of Adam being created first.

[elinikk]

@BigG99 "The fall of eve"? You obviously have never read the bible. It is called the fall of man for a reason. It was man that sinned! Man was commanded to not eat, and he ate of the tree. Eve took the fruit first but gave it to her husband "who was with her". Both Adam and Eve and the World was cursed becuase of Adam's sin. Eve was decieved, but no by the serpent, it was her husband who lied to her and said "We cannot look at it or even touch it". Adam added to what God said (aka lied).

[BigG99]

@elinikk read from 1 timothy 2:11-14... it illustrates plainly what i am talking about....

[elinikk]

@BigG99 BTW, Adam and Eve were created at the same time! Eve was in Adam from the begining. Eve was taken out of Adam. Adam even said "this is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh".

[BigG99]

@elinikk your still confusing equality with roles.. bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh indicates equality in nature and equally valuable... but God says to adam tend the garden (lead) to eve he said i will make a helpmate! thus 1 tim 2:12-13- "i do not permit a women to have authority over men.. for adam was formed first then eve, and adam was not the one deceived"... so why arent women to have authority over men? 1)adam was formed first and given authority 2) eve was deceived.

[elinikk]

@BigG99 Yes, but as it pertains to the Mariage relationship. "I do not permit a wife to have authority over her husband"

[elinikk]

@BigG99 You sound shocked to hear something about the Greeks that wasn't covered in you 5 year survey course of study. I on the other hand did not read "the idiots guide to eveything greek", or whatever the book was called, like yourself. I dare say, that if I should study the Greek culture and literature for the rest of my life I would still be discovering things new even on my death bed. Ones mind should not be the highest sourse of authority of any culture!

[BigG99]

@elinikk im not shocked just stating that this principle you speak of could be made up is all... And my greek studies were at an accredited university to which at the end we all received a greek new testament from which to read the bible. Have you ever read the new testament in greek?.. its very enlightening. I fear this conversation is going nowhere because you are being biblically dodgy .

[elinikk]

@BigG99 Only five years studying the bible. BigG99 you are just a babe. I have been studying the scripture for 30 years. I have listened to all of the great pastors. I have sat in countless services. I have read the scriptures in many versions and languages. I have memorized scripture. I know many passages by memory from the original Hebrew. I just seem to never grow tired of that book. As a book, the greatest writing of mankind, but I also find it to be a personal letter from the Lord.

[BigG99]

@elinikk i said 5 years of university study. what great preacher taught you that women are to be elders? I find it very interesting however that as a person who is so strongly loving the hebrew scriptures you cant understand the historicity and meaning of the word elder. Which according to the greek and hebrew tradition means a position for men. You know the men who stand in the gate and are not put to shame. how much culture and humanism have you mixed into your theology

[elinikk]

@BigG99 The historical meaning of the word elder is an adult or someone with a beard. Yes only men can have beards, but it is more in reference to the age of the person then only having the ability to grow a beard.

I only know the bible. I do not put culture or humanism into my theology.  Unlike you I prefer the truth of God's word, not obsfucation.

[BigG99]

@elinikk i dont know why you insist on ignoring 4 thousand years of church history and teaching from the most respected theologians in modern day christianity. Women were never elders in the early church .. look it up my friend... find me one from a church of direct apostolic descent. You say you use the bible? well then show me in scripture where women are allowed to be elders? have fun with that.

[elinikk]

@BigG99 Church history also allowed slaves. Paul even said to those who were slaves to serve their masters well. How are your slaves doing? Do you let them have something other then bread and water? Church history does not a good doctrine make. Shall we go on another crusade and vanquish more muslims? Should we take away womans ability to vote because the writers of scriptures say they speak in "idle tales" or in other words "total nonsense" and unable to reason?!

[BigG99]

@elinikk oh so you dont use the bible as your source then? you seem to be saying that if the bible taught slavery was ok but now its not appropriate culturally you would go with the cultural morality?... slavery isnt taught as ok in the bible. in fact Jesus pretty much destroyed the idea of slavery when he said tht under christ all are equal, slave and jew, male and female etc..my point is your being very inconsistent. you have troubles distinguishing between timeless truth and cultural truth.

[elinikk]

@MrCava1ier Yes, there is no difference between male and female spiritually! You are taking Titus 1 and Tim 3 out of context which were given for specific situations. Paul address Timothy who had woman speaking out in the service loudy cause disruption. If Paul was against woman elders/pastors then he should have verbally denounce Pricilia or many of the other woman "fellow workers" but he did not. So the tim/titus references are specific and not general doctrine.

[elinikk]

@MrCava1ier Homosexuality is a sin. It is a sin against the commandment "Thou shalt not commit adultery". Any sex outside of marriage (one man and one woman) is adultery. Yes, Paul speaks against homosexuality and Lesbianism in Romans 1 and 1 Cor 6. What does this have to do with woman being elders?

[elinikk]

@MrCava1ier Boom, you are done all right. The natural straight forward interpretation of God's word is that there is no difference between male and female. A woman can be an elder or preacher in the Church.

[elinikk]

@MrCava1ier What are you stupid? It is just a typo. If I was writting a book I would get my editor to look it over. The fact is you understood what I meant, you are just trying to make someone else look bad. This arguement of yours is not the arguement on topic. This is a common tactic used by those who have no good arguement at all.

[elinikk]

@MrCava1ier If Paul was alive today, hey would be against this false doctrine which twists what he wrote. And he would be explicit about it if he was writting to this group, however Paul was writting to Timothy and they both understood the context of his writing.

I do not talk scripture out of context. I tell the truth.

[elinikk]

I have read the bible many times and I do not agree with this doctrine. To believe it you have to reject some scripture in favor of others and I cannot do that. Elders were in the new testament times males and Paul writes: the husband of one wife (tit 1:6). But, I think he could have written: the wife of one husband. Paul is just addressing specific churches that have male elders. Further one has to reject the scripture: there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

[StrumstickJoe]

I agree that women shouldn't be elders, teachers, preachers in churches.

Completely.

But I also believe that men shouldn't either.

That way we could shed the mythology and move the world forward a couple of thousand years in one fell swoop!

There is no soul, there is no afterlife, (heaven would be hell!)

And there never was a spirit in the sky.

Peace.

[RedLetterChristian]

if you are going to maintain that women can not teach or have authority and you use this text to prove your case then you must also say that women are only saved through child bearing?! I am sure you would not say that this is the case and the whole issue about deception and being saved is refering to the garden of eden where god said that the women would be saved through childbearing 'her child will crush your head, and you shall bruise his heel'. next "if they" refer to both sexes in vs 15

[RedLetterChristian]

there is an arguement to be made for the man to be head of the household. (the final word when agreement can not be reached on an action of plan of action) a leader for the family both in spiritual and non spiritual matters. However, this does not follow into any other sphere. in a chuch setting there is a hiearchy of authority already in place that is responcable for the church at large. meaning that women have every right to hold those positions. period. apostolic succession does not exist.

[littlemonkey613]

god this is disgusting.

[1nicawilly]

It amazes me that biblically oriented Christians IGNORE the issue of spiirtual gifts which are NON+GENDER specific. Has anyone read the second chapter of Acts lately? Those who insist on selecting texts that prohibit women from ministry as elders and deacons are simply grieving the Holy Spirit.

[vladdy3]

@1nicawilly It's obvious you're upset, but let me just try to explain it to you in another way. First of all, I completely agree that the spiritual gifts are non-gender specific and even further that women can and do have the gift of teaching. With that said when the Paul says that we should allow those who have gifts to use them in 1 Cor. 12 he's saying that assuming that the gifts will be used within the context of their roles. Women should teach, it's just who that's the question. Thoughts?

[Video182]

 romans16:7 says you wrong, soft-talking man!!

[AJ6644]

This is called rationalization.

[debblouin]

What is the theological imperative today for a male-led body of believers? What is its biblical foundation? Much of what Paul taught about hierarchy and leadership had to do with cultural proscriptions concerning women in the public sphere. And yet many of the churches were actually headed by women--Lydia, Chloe, Dorcas, and other women called co-workers. The churches met at their homes. Significant considering property ownership and citizen laws of the NT era. We must look at the referential a

[JCAinONTARIO]

Yes girls, let us all remember that our role in life is to be submissive to men. Do not question. Obey. After all, we do not have the same capacity for understanding that males do. And as the Bible tells us, God is a man.

It does tell us that, right? I mean, that's what I was told, anyway. By a man. And who am I to question the word of a man?

[zenowing]

@JCAinONTARIO I actually don't think The Bible says 'God is a man'. I guess you're probably referring to the masculine references to God.

I think you're pretty close on the 'submissive' part, but it would be to God, and your husband - not 'men' in general. Politeness aside, I'm sure some girls are all about that, but that wouldn't be exactly Biblical, if you take my meaning. Sounds like you have some serious man-issues. That's what I'm reading, right?

[JCAinONTARIO]

@zenowing My issues are with ignorance in general and with anyone who wishes to subjugate others. As for my use of the term "girls", my statement that "God is a man", as well as the entire second paragraph of my comment, those are examples of what we call sarcasm.

[zenowing]

@JCAinONTARIO Apologies, I must have misunderstood your intended meaning. I wasn't able to extract these further explanations that you are giving in your original text. For some reason I misinterpreted your original post as man-hating criticism. My mistake.

In fairness, the last two sentences of this response are what I call sarcasm.

[5555miles]

This is a rather bad explanation.

The role of women in the society isn't a part of God's design but a consequence of the Fall. Male dominance is a painful curse, Genesis 3:16.

It's not a godly ideal but a horrible consequence. It's not something to support or promote, but a part of the corruption. Male dominance is a historical fact about human societies after the Fall.

[PianoMan8912]

@5555miles, There are 10 reasons this is incorrect: 1- Adam was created first, then Eve, Gen. 2:7&2:18-23&1Tim 2:13; 2-Adam, not eve, had special role in representation of human race, 1Cor. 15:22, 45-49,Rom. 5:12-21; 3-Eve didn't name Adam Gen. 2:23; 4-God named the human race "man" not woman; 5-God called adam to account after the fall Gen.3:9; 6-Eve was created as a helper for Adam, not the otherway Gen.2:18,1Cor.11:9; ...

[anthonythirteen]

@PianoMan8912

1. Timing Irrelevant. God made both.

2. Eve does 'represent' the human race as well. Don't drag out 1 Corinth: we must have discernment as to what is universal & what s culturally specific, otherwise we'd all live like the Amish.

3. Naming has nothing to do with leading a church.

4. But there is man in woman - rather desperate point.

5. Eve is called to account for her role as well.

6. Yes, doesn't stop her helping others.

[PianoMan8912]

@5555miles ... to continue 7-The curse brough a distortion of previous roles, not intro. of new ones Gen. 3:16; 8- Salvation in Christ in the NT reaffirms creation order Colossians3:18-19; 9-Marriage from the beginning was a picture of the relationship between Christ and Church Eph.5:32-33; 10-The equality differences, and unity between men and women reflect the equality, differences, and unity in the Trinity 1Cor.11:3.

[anthonythirteen]

@PianoMan8912

7. There was no 'Eldership' role before the church.

8. Don't drag out wives submitting to husbands, I presume you provide your servants what is 'right & fair'?

9. You mean Ephs 22-23 I presume? The word is 'submit' is not the same as 'obey' (used in repsect to children & slaves), and besides husbands should submit to their wives (read the passage vefore).

10. Paul is referring to public worship, specifically. Again a culturally specific passage passed off as universal.

[MRKetter81]

@5555miles Man having dominion over women is a case befor the fall as well wother you like it or not.

The bible does not fit in to political correctness and it never will.

[5555miles]

@MRKetter81

Political correctness isn't my point. It's true that woman was intended to be a suitable companion to man. The Bible metaphorically talks about woman created from Adam's side (or rib). The first time the Bible talks about male dominion is after the Fall, where the inequality was greatly enhanced.

[MRKetter81]

@5555miles The Bible "metaphorically" talks about women created from Adam's rib?

Really? I guess I didn't read my side notes well enough, because last I checked it didn't say anything about it being metaphorical or not. I guess Cain "metaphorically" killed Abel too.

Regaurdless... When man "names" women just as God "named" man; It is a declaritive dominion over the person/animal/plant/object named.

Parents "name" their children not the other way around.

[5555miles]

@MRKetter81 I really don't want to argue about this, it's not fruitful here in the YouTube comments.

Male or female is based on chromosomes. A fetus is at first intersex, but if it has an extra chromosome Y, it becomes male. Without the Y chromosome and without male hormones a person is female by default.

I really didn't mean to make this an issue. The message of my comment is the same even without the word 'metaphorically'.

[5555miles]

@MRKetter81 So do we just ignore the concequences of the Fall? Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you? I know the division or the inequality was there pre-Fall, just like birthpangs are 'greatly enhanced', not first created. But I'd still rather go with what the Bible actually says word for word.

[MrGoodNKinky]

This is nothing but male dominant bullshit!

Clearly this guy is to stupid to realize in the fucking bible this God used women to lead on some occasions!

Women like:

1. Miriam - Protecting Moses & sending him to Egypt

2. Deborah - National hero and leader of the Israelites. Also Spoke for God!

3. Huldah - Was a respected prophetess.

4. Esther - Saving the entire nation of Israel from destruction.

5. Anna - Was a prophetess

6. Lydia - A successful businesswoman.

[PianoMan8912]

@MrGoodNKinky Who says that they were not exceptions?

[MrGoodNKinky]

@PianoMan8912

An Exception is a CHANGE and your God CAN'T CHANGE!

Except it does CHANGE over and over again so that means it is a LIAR!

Oh wait your bible says your God can't lie?

Well if a Liar says they can't Lie it really has no value since THEY ARE A LIAR!

Women didn't have the same Rights as a man until the 1960's!

And in a lot of cases they still struggle for equal Pay, equal respect, Equal time.

[AlmostEveryKnight]

It is evident that the Gospel hereon Youtube is hitting the right targets. So many of you have no idea what the Bible says. Time to buck up and get some knowledge rather than just say he's wrong just because you disagree. Taking things out of Biblical context only leads you astray. But then again it sounds like you are happy being there.

[PianoMan8912]

@AlmostEveryKnight amen.

[MrGoodNKinky]

@PianoMan8912

That's right PRAISE EGYPTIAN GODS!

LMAO!

[Godsrose1951]

In the eyes of God, according to Paul, there is no male, no female, no greek, no jew---how does that line up with what Bill is saying???????

[RoyalBaller9]

@Godsrose1951

Truly, the Bible says it clearly in the verse you stated. This is a definite lack of context on his behalf, he didn't even cite a verse or a Bible passage, just his perception of the way God made things. In actuality, most of the laws that separated these types of things were created by man and not God.

[anthonythirteen]

@Godsrose1951 Exactly, there were female prophets. Plenty of women lead families very capably.

Not every woman can lead at all times. Paul was addressing a specific problem of unread women trying to take over.

I have heard & witnessed awful male elders & pastors. I have also come across excellent female elders & pastors.

[elderaps]

@anthonythirteen Paul says why he gives those instructions in the book of Timothy, and it is not primarily because of a cultural situation. He cites a pre-fall ordering and ordaining of gender roles.

[anthonythirteen]

@elderaps Mmmm, don't place too much emphasis upon "Man was not the one decieved" - oh yes he was. So, Phoebe & the other servants (i.e. Deaconesses) aren't allowed either? You've not bothered to answer why there can be female prophets. Taking Paul's specific instructions to one church with particular problems is problematic.

[PianoMan8912]

@anthonythirteen a good Greek rendering of the passage that mentions Deaconesses is actually translated as "servant". In the Greek that is a general role assigned to anyone who wishes to serve the church, not a special role found like a board of elders or a session.

[anthonythirteen]

@elderaps I understand the problems caused by uneducated people grabbing positions of power in a church - indeed, 'Pastor's Wife Syndrome' where a woman gets to say & do things beyond their 'gifting' & spiritual maturity (too put it politely). But this promotion beyond competency applies to uneducated men as well. I know of very fine female pastors & poor male pastors: too split on gender lines is difficult to maintain.

[elderaps]

@Godsrose1951 The verse you are referring to in Galatians 3 is dealing with equal accessibility to the gospel. In other words, it is talking about our ontological worth and equality. Paul wasn't saying that there is no such thing as nationality or gender - but only that all nationalities and genders can be saved by the gospel. He's not saying there aren't still distinctions and different roles that might be in play.

[masala505]

To be fair I think Bill Kynes is trying to be reasonable. What is unpleasant though is his patronising tone. Indeed he beleives what he is saying and that is what is part of the uglyness. He beleives that women are in their place through a mandate of heaven which he and other like thinking christians agree upon. How thouroughly self-centered and patronising! Look at his smug face...what arrogance!

[ecaa]

Who is audacious enough to tell all the women in the world to "graciously respond submissively" to their husbands?

Telling half the planet that they are subservient to the other half because a man in the sky wrote it in a book 2000 years ago is a complete and utter joke. Call it divine mandate if you want, but anyone with any sense in their head will call you what you are, bigots and fascists.

That said, Mr. Kynes's video on postmodernism was decent. Trying to be nice.

[masala505]

What absolute nonsense. You are making it up as you go along!