I seriously believe in the massa damnata. Jesus, Himself, even says that many will try to enter and few will get in. I, myself, may very well end up going to Hell. I'm pretty confident in that. I just hope God has mercy on me.
@kubrox91 I think that you may not be far from the kingdom of God. And yet, both you and I could easily be damned. May God save and have mercy on you and on me.
Father, it seems you are implicitly denouncing Calvinist doctrine, both on freewill and the nature of God. It would be great to see a video on your thoughts on Calvinism and particularly the Calvinist resurgence we are seeing in America.
@wordonfirevideo Yes of course :).. It would be great to see a Catholic perspective on Calvinism given its resurgence we are seeing in American culture at the moment. We are now seeing Calvinist mega churches with guys like Mark Driscoll and Francis Chan. I find this very worrying development. I could not think of anything worse than believing in Calvinist doctrine, at least the way it is being presented recently. I think we need a counter Calvinist reformation!
@ndzoko Read the section by Boethius in The Consolation of Philosophy on omniscience and free will. They are not mutually exclusive. And it's not just verbal juggling.
Hell is real. God does not desire anyone to enter the gates of Hell, however, Hell is very real. The danger of Hell is real. Please visit, share, comment on all my videos today.
For important truths on the traditional Catholic Faith, its necessity for salvation, proof of Catholicism in the Bible, creation, miracles, and what really happened to the Catholic Church after Vatican II, please visit channel: MHFM1.
ah well in his last comments those who insist on not attending the party fck that crap wake up this is 2012 we dont need religious ideas fron 2000 ys ago from stupid mid eastern fools ! sheeple get a clue and use ur internet to research where the hell the fckn bible came from !
what jesus was referring to was the land dump in the holy city where ppl were burned alive/for crimes an full of flames an fire not an actual hell stupids ! it was a fckn dump next to the city ! if hell was real the devil wouldnt torture his homies fool , as those who went there would have the welcome mat ! got it !
Fr. Barron, how can you say God wants everyone to be saved? In Mark 4:12 Jesus himself says he teaches in parables to some people instead of explaining himself so that that they will look but never see, and will listen but not understand, lest they turn and be forgiven.
I agree totally. the North Korean authorities are not sending its people to jail and concentration camps for not crying during their leader's death. They themselves are sending to jail and torture by not honestly crying... Right?
I realy like this video Father it's made me look at hell in a whole new way. But how dose this fitt into matt 7: 23 ? It sounds like the people want to go into heaven but Jesus says go away i never knew you!
@Daniel151jesus We are judged by our actions in this life, not just by the yes or no we utter. Jesus said, "let your yes be yes and your no be no" and we read in the letter of James "Show me your faith without works and I will show you mine through my works " The implication being that a yes (belief) without follow through (action) is as bad as a no (unbelief).
The people who refuse to acknowledge hell are those who bask in sin and so don't want to really face the consequences of their "NO!" to God's Love. It's the denial of responsibility and accountability for ones actions, a typical relativist approach.
If you believe in hell, you believe that god is the worst tyrant imaginable. Earthly tyrants murdered their opponents, and that is the end. But this loving , heavenly father tortures FOR ALL ETERNITY not only his opponents, but even those who happen to not believe in him. North Korea is a paradise compared to god`s realm
@wordonfirevideo Father Barron i think that this is a very good clarification about what the doctrine of hell is. I have commented and watched some of your videos. Im a Baptist myself, but i find them interesting. I think that an even better analogy to use when speaking of the doctrine of hell is the one that you used when you spoke about how humans are wired to God, and equated it to how we are wired to food by nature(continued)
@wordonfirevideo food is a necessity for our physical survival. If we deny ourselves of food, then first we become hungry, then if it gets really bad we starve, and we eventually die. In the same sense if we deny the desire of soul which is God, we've spiritually starved it, and it eventually withers away(in the abstract sense). I least, thats what i get from an allegorical reading of scripture
@ndzoko The point being made is that there is no "torture" in hell. There is torment, but no torture. Why torment? It's the torment of the loving embrace of a person that you hate. If you do not hate God then there is no hell. Stop thinking of it as a sort of torture chamber, it's nothing like that.
BTW, I'm not even a christian. I just understood the argument. ;)
@ndzoko It's not nitpicking. The difference is crucial. Are the people who are having fun at a party "torturing" the person who retreats into a corner, and is bothered by the very same elements that make the party so much for the others? I think that your gut reaction to the concept of hell is what is infantile, anyway. The illustration could not be more clear.
@dannytibi If you believe in the existence of hell, you believe that thi god is the worst tyrant, the worst revengeful individual ever. Earthly tyrants kill their opponents and that is the end, but this loving heavenly father tortures for all eternity,not only his opponents, but even those who happen to not believe in him. Your idea of hell ,is not the idea of the meanstream of believers. Anyway, luckily, hell is infantilism.
@wordonfirevideo I will, if you can give me ONE good reason why father barons explanation is better or more believable tahn the explanation of the thousands of his predecessors.
@ndzoko Listen to the argument: the possibility of Hell is predicated upon two more basic assumptions, namely, that God is love and we are free. You can't have those two claims without holding out the possibility of Hell. It has nothing at all to do with capriciousness or cruelty on God's part.
@wordonfirevideo namely, that God is love and we are free. You can't have those two claims without holding out the possibility of Hell.... So, your dogma is that this ALMIGHTY god is bound by the limitations of the human mind ??? If you are right, who set it up that way ? Allmighty means, that he has thousands of ways to do justice in the afterlife, for the sins committed in this life. Hell is not necessary and excludes , from the human point of view, an ALL LOVING god,
@ndzoko Because Barron's explanation is in line with what Orthodox Christianity has always taught. This idea of God as an aggressor is a heresy that has utterly engulfed the protestant world but it has very little grounding in historic Orthodox Christianity.
@dannytibi It is Jesus who explicitly taught hell exists and how it is real in the story of the rich man & Lazarus. He also taught that hell was not made for humans but for Satan & his angles. Jesus also taught that men do not have to go to hell particularly when you read the gospel of John. This father Barron is somehow teaching, not plainly, that "he is not sure if anyone is there (in hell); now that is heresy & denying what Jesus taught. Pope JPII taught the same thing.
@bulyabalive This teaching does not deny the existence of hell, it only reconciles it with what we know to be true about God, that he is light and love. To those who love darkness the light is scorching and painful.
@bulyabalive I admire the myriad of opposing views on every aspect of the bible and the gospels. It makes any outsider conclude that NONE is right. All religion is BULLS..
@dannytibi The Bible teaches who will go to hell & here are some:
Ps. 9:17 "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." Mat. 5:22 "..whosoever shall say, you fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Mat 5:28-29 Adulterly & lust; John 3: those who refuse to be born again unto God's family; 18 those who reject Christ; 19 those who love darkness because they do evil; Rev. 21-8 the fearful, unbelieving, the abominable, muderers, whoremongers,....
@bulyabalive Would you mind defining " THE WICKED ". Than we will know if we go to hell or not . If you ask me, everybody is wicked to some degree, NONE IS PERFECT.
@dannytibi ..sorcerers, idolaters, all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone; which is the second death. This is not exhaustive. Scripture talkes about hell more than people want to believe. It is a place and not something which a person lives here on earth without God's love as this Barron Father is teaching. God's love is around us here on earth even when we do not recognize it. Hell exists after death as Jesus taught in Luke 16:19-31.
@bulyabalive Witches, kill them. Homosexuals, kill them.fortunetellers, kill them. those who don`t listen to priests, kill them. those hitting their dad, kill them. those who curse their parents, kill them, adulterers, kill them. fornicators, kill them. people who believe in other religions, kill them. non-believers,kill them. fals prohets ,kill them. blasphemers, kill them. those who work on the Sabbath, kill them. This is the word of god !!
@ndzoko I do not believe that God tortures anybody. This is not something that is peculiar to me either, this has been the mainstream view in Eastern Christianity, (and in a few enlightened Western communities) since the beginning of the Christian era. Theologians like Tertulian, Augustine, Aquinas and Calvin are responsible for this view of God as an aggressor, but that is their theology, it is not Orthodox Christianity.
@dannytibi So, according to your point of view, the most influential theologians in christendom, Augustine, Aquinas,Calvin were wrong, but father Baron is right !! That`s Amazing. !! Is he a "Doctor of the Church " too ?. Father Baron is trying to put a reasonable cloak on an unreasonable proposition. Hell is fantasy, plain and simple.
@ndzoko Fr. Barron is one among many in the Western Church who are coming in line with what the Eastern Church has always taught. Research the tradition of the Eastern Church and you will see that every single Father of the EOC has taught this from Gregory of Nyssa to Alexandre Kalomiros. C.S. Lewis and N.T. Wright are 2 other examples of Westerners who have come to this conclusion as well. Augustine and Aquinas have little standing in the EOC, and Calvin is an outright heretic.
@ndzoko Not to mention, the Catholic Catechism itself supports Fr. Barron even apart from the teaching of the EOC: To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."
@dannytibi The Catholic Catechism itself defines hell as being this spiritual state of definitive self exclusion from communion with God, not some sort of cosmic torture chamber. Glad to see the Latin`s are finally caching up to what the EOC has been teaching for 2,000 years.
@ndzoko One does not follow from the other. If one believes in earthly justice (the legal system) does it follow that you believe all judges are personally evil or the legal system itself is inherently evil? Of course not.
God judges sin. There's nothing tyrannical about that.
@Yesica1993 Human justice( imperfect as it is) has a scale of transgressions and a corresponding scale of punishment, but this JUST(LOL) heavenly, father has only one punishment for all non-repentant sinners. ....HELL. How just can that be ??
@ndzoko Absolutely just, for the depth of wickedness we all have in our thoughts, words and actions. Remember, the standard we are measured by is not comparison to other people. (After all, we can ALWAYS find someone just a little better or just a little worse than ourselves!)
No, the standard we are measured by is perfection - God, Himself. Compared to perfection, who can stand?
@ndzoko There's plenty of justification for it, including the fact that you seem to have ideas of "just" vs. "unjust" - which ideas can only exist in the first place if there are objective standards of right and wrong.
@ndzoko What reason do I have to believe that you have any interest in what I have to say? After all, you're not even paying attention to what I've said so far. I'll say it one last time:
YOU are the one claiming God's punishment for sin is unjust. (Even simply on the theoretical level, if you don't believe that God exists.) That, in itself, demonstrates that you have a sense that some things are morally right and others morally wrong.
@ndzoko What gives you the right to criticize or condemn the rude or selfish behavior of other people when they do things that are upsetting or inconvenient to you? Please answer the question.
@ndzoko "Freedom of expression." That's what the guy was doing when he cut in front you at the DMV line. So why are you right in being mad at him? Why isn't he just as right to use his (or her) "freedom of expression" to cut in front of you? Remember: There are no objective standards of right or wrong. (BUT you still might be able to take him/her in a fistfight, if it comes to that.)
@billybagbom Socety dictates the standards of right and wrong. If you don`t agree, tell me on what basis the Aztecs should consider human sacrifice immoral ? On what basis would the people of Papoua New Guinee consider canibalism immoral , ?
@ndzoko Socety dictates the standards of right and wrong. If you don`t agree, tell me on what basis the Aztecs should consider human sacrifice immoral ? On what basis would the people of Papoua New Guinee consider canibalism immoral ,?
@ndzoko So you would defend the right of the Aztec to cut the hearts out of living human beings, and the rights of cannibals to eat other people. This is interesting. Would you also defend the right of South African whites to impose apartheid or the rights of agrarian American southerners to own slaves? If not, on what basis would you oppose them? (HINT: Bishop Tutu and William Wilberforce were not atheists.)
@billybagbom Oh, I get what you're saying now! WE, today, as The Enlightened Ones, The Epitome of All Wisdom and Knowledge, WE of the postmodern western secular society, the very Goal of all History (after all, what else is there, really?), yes: WE decide by a 51% vote (or majority consensus) what is and has ALWAYS been "right" and "wrong"! And the Christians are the bigots and the chauvinists.
@billybagbom I say, that in aztec society human sacrifice was moral to the extend that the aztecs societu approved of it. just like I say that in New- Guinee cannibalisn was moral to the extend that those people approved it. Are you claiming that slavery was not moral in biblical times. Read your bible. There is nowhere any objection to sell, buy or inherit slaves. I don`t condone apartheid, Apartheid was IMMORAL because a minority imposed it on a majority, who did not approve.
@ndzoko But (and I don't want to put words in your mouth), would you say any action can become moral if only we can get 51% of a given society to approve it? (The biblical point is well taken of course, but you must understand that in ancient times slavery was a human institution with a long and respected tradition.It didn't go back as far as marriage, but it went pretty far back.It was both evil and entrenched, and also eradicated by those who were enlightened by the Judeo-Christian tradition.)
@billybagbom would you say any action can become moral if only we can get 51% of a given society to approve it? I am not into hypothetical discussions. I would say in that society that action would be 51 % moral. If the people accept that, than that action in my opinion is moral. There is no other standard for morality than human consent. Is there is one show it to me.
@billybagbom By the way I cannot accept your point of view that in biblical times slavery was a human institution with RESPECTED tradition. , Is it respectable because it`s in the bible ?.
@ndzoko No, it was "respected" in the sense that it was "accepted," much as gay marriage and abortion in present society. In fact, much as anti-semitism and racism has been in other societies in the not-too-distant past.
@ndzoko No. No. Slavery WAS "accepted" in Old Testament times, but a corner has been turned, according to the New Testament (Acts 14:16f; 17:30-31). Even to Israel herself, John the Baptist began by saying that the time had come to REPENT, for the kingdom of God was at hand (Mark 1:1-15). But you do believe that 51% majority dictates what is "moral"?
@billybagbom I probably would, if I was living in Aztec times. And you would probably too. We are living in 2011 and we do not approve of cannibalism or slavery NOW. I ask you again , if there is an absolute morality, where is it written down ?
@ndzoko It's written in your own inner being, in your soul, your "gut," whatever you want to call it. Whenever you protest against the actions of another person who says or does something that is offensive or hurtful to you, you are saying more than,"What you did was offensive to me." You're also admitting that is is WRONG (in the classic sense of the word) to do things that harm other people. Otherwise, why bother to respond at all? Your opinion about the matter would be just your opinion. See?
@billybagbom It's written in your own inner being, in your soul, your "gut.. The absolute morality in the guts of mass-murderers is of low quality
HM, Are you sure ? So, the absolute morality was written down in the inner being Of Hitler ? Stalin ? Pol Pot ? I think satan wrote his absolute morality down in those gentlemen.
@ndzoko I don't think Hitler is a particularly helpful individual to introduce to this discussion, but I think I see your point. I think people violate what we know in our guts to be truth and morality all the time. Some do so to the point of becoming quite scarred and disfigured in their inner lives. It doesn't mean they didn't know better; it means they had another agenda besides truth and morality. I assume that since you don't believe in God or the supernatural (?), "satan" is excluded, too.
@billybagbom Didn`t you say that god has a plan for everybody ? If one can deviate from god`s plan, and force another outcome than the one foreseen in god`s plan. than this god is no longer omniscient. You can have either a fixed, unchangeable plan from god, or you can have an omniscient god. You can`t have them both. Only theology, the art of wordsmithing) can find a way around this.
I watch this insane man called Father Barron on tv today 1/11/2012
These are actual words said by Barron, he made the fallowing assertion:
"God can't be known! even by the saints in heaven,but we must try to know him "
What an absolutely absurd affirmation, it alone is flagrant evidence of his irrationality & the irrationality of Christianity, and those who believe the nonsense that is religion!
Dificilmente encontrare otro individuo tan repugnante como este desquiciado individuo llamado Barron. Nunca pense que era posible concebir tanta tonteria como las que habla este charlatan desvergonzado. Nomas le fata que diga que la tierra y la luna son cuadradas o triangulares.
Por favor gente eduquense para que les laven el cerebro estos charlatanes con sus cuentos chinos de que existe un amigo invisible llamado dios.
I'm currently reading your And Now I Can See.... And I can tell you: I read a lot. In fact, I'm a compulsive reader. Reading between 1-3 books a week. And I mean this honestly: this is an absolutely wonderful book thus far. You seem to get it. You paint the picture I find so little of in the words of other Christians. You explain things with great lucidity, and in a way that most people would be willing to accept if they could move past their distaste for the Christian lexicon.
I go in and out of the Catholic church like a revolving door. And I'm about to go out of it again...
1. Confession is weird. For whatever reason, my parish seems to advocate face-to-face confession. I went during advent and I swear the Priest gave me this look of, Awww its you:-(
What the hell?! Jeez, it's not as if I get in there and tell him some sort of perverted sexual sins. Or is that why he was disappointed, I don't.
2. Fanaticism is a little too prevenent by clery and staff.
It's like my theology professor, Dr.Berry, would say: "I don't fail students. It's students who choose to not do the readings, review the material or pass the course."
A few minutes ago I wrote a bad comment about you, Father, out of, so I perceive, a misunderstanding. In charity, I must ask, since it has to do with my misunderstanding: When you say the damned suffer God's Love, do you mean they are somehow with God, as in, in His Presence?
By the way, CS Lewis's comment on hell being locked from the inside makes no sense, as it is established by the Church that once you are in hell you cannot escape it (unlike purgatory, from which you can go to heaven). So there is not possibility to "unlock" the door.
Of course, by saying "reject" I simply mean commit a sin of, for instance, masturbation or not showing up for Mass on a Sunday, by which according to the Church, you separate yourself from God for eternity. By the way, even if we accept the evasive explanation that it is sinners who send themselves to hell, this very institution must still be credited to God, as the maker of all things. Why would he create such a cruel institution? Not even the cruelest governments torment criminasl for eternity
And what about Limbo, Father? Have unbaptized infants rejected God too and decided they'd be better off in Limbo? Or is the whole idea a nonsense and the Church has been both wrong and extremely cruel for ages by spreading it.
This is just an evasive explanation to present the hell sentence in more humane terms. The fact remains that it is not your decision to go to hell, you only decide to 'reject' God, not to go to hell. In fact you may not even believe in its existence. Just as it is the Government's, not your, decision for you to end up in jail. You only do the crime, you don't send yourself to jail. The only difference is, in the jail case you at least know for sure it exists.
You, dear brother (I apologize if you prefer the term father), are a precious grace from God. Continue to speak that which is True, and spread the good news that God is not a fancy of the past, but an everlasting Good that penetrates even the depths of modern culture. As Lewis says "A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word 'darkness' on the walls of his cell."
So what you are saying, Father Barron, is that hell is not a literal place where people burn for eternity? It is merely a metaphorical rejection of the love of God? Also, what constitutes this rejection of God's love? If I, an atheist, reject the claims of God and Jesus as not being supported by enough evidence, am I rejecting the love of God? Or is rejecting the love of God merely going against the moral teachings of one of many religions and denominations?
## To reject the Love of God is - ultimately - to reject all happiness, and to chose frustration and misery. Freely, deliberately, knowingly, for ever. The imagery of fire is a very faint representation of what we risk, if we turn for ever from the Only True Source of all joy. That is how important, and how vitally necessary, God truly is. To lose Him, is to lose all possibility of human fulfilment, of love, of peace, of good of any kind.
Haters of God will know instinctivly that they don't want God when it comes time to meet him. Because they lived their lives believeing and preaching their hatred of Him. When their "nothing" really is "something". They will go to a place where all the other "haters of God" are. Could anyone be in a place where they hated everyone? They will KNOW that they're in the right place because of their freedom, beliefs and actions in this life. Good luck.
I have a question, If our confessor says we dont have to make restitution for stolen things, is that decision accepted by God or do we have to make restitution in order to be forgiven?
In the near death experiences I have seen, the person who died seems to automatically end up in Hell, due to their unsaved state and sinful condition. In otherwords, Hell appears to be the appropriate final destination for fallen humanity. The good news is, that our God of love, through Jesus Christ, sends people to heaven, who were otherwise going to Hell. Hallelujah!
Fr. Barron, the Catholic church says God wants all men to be saved. But Jesus himself says in Mark 4:10-12
"unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."
It seems here that Jesus is choosing to express himself in a certain way so that some people will NOT be saved. What gives?
After reading the Inferno, I never understood why Virgil would reproach Dante for weeping at justice given to the condemned. It seems right that one would have empathy for others suffering. Your words tying Gods love to the fire in Hell cleared this up. For the greater the glory of God, the more the suffering in Hell! Their suffering is directly (or is it indirectly) relational with HIs love. Thank you for this teaching! May the Lord be with your spirit.
the last sentence confuses me, how can you say we don'even know if anyone is in hell? Didn't Jesus say it would have been better for Judas to never been born? I think the only way he can say that is by suggesting that Judas will go to hell. Also, he said that few enter the narrow gate (which leads to heaven) suggesting that maybe even a majority of people go to hell (I'm not sure if the Lord was speaking as a statistician there, but it certainly would not make sense if zero people were in hell)
@Zami9000 He said no one is OBLIGED TO BELIEVE anyone is in Hell. I'm sure, however, he really didn't have those two examples in mind. I'd love to see what he'd have to say about it.
@Zami9000 This type of teaching is deliberate attempt to lead people into hell. When God says there is hell, then there is hell. Suffering on earth is not hell. There is no love of God in hell, but there is love of God when one is still living in the physical body here on earth. People go hell because they reject the gift of salvation God offers through the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the only way to the Father. Believe God's Word, not confusing teachings.
@bulyabalive What type of teaching are you referring to? I don't think I said anything in my comment contrary to what you said here, neither did Fr Barron in his video
@bulyabalive Do you think that God tortures people? This video is not saying hell does not exist, it is simply saying that God does not torture people. There is no confusion here, you are the one who is confused.
This video explains there is no after-life, no second coming whatsoever. If we die, we die, accept the reality. Christians should open their eyes and stop believing beyond reality nonsense.
Heaven and hell are just state of life. Heaven - joy, happiness, contentment, success, kindness, love. Hell - suffering, agony, pain, hatred, jealousy, wars.
Eternal life is impossible. If it is, it's really boring.
And how certain are you that there is an eternal life? I said it's impossible for an eternal life for the reason it is contradictory. If you are a all-loving person in all kinds of goodness, can you enjoy your eternal paradise while billions of people burning in anguish and pain in hell? If you can still enjoy your eternal paradise, you aren't a all-loving person at all.
Same as on earth, you eat and waste food, without even realizing thousands of people dying in starvation.
@chesster423 Funny thing is I'm not. At least, not empirically. I have all kinds of philosophical arguments and evidence from my own experience that He exists, and so I believe in Him. I find it a lot more compelling than atheism. Only a great fool demands empirical evidence for everything. "PROVE TO ME THAT YOU LOVE MEEE!!!" Lol.
@chesster423 Reason does not equal proof. I might require proof of insurance, and proof that a drug is going to treat an illness, but why would I need empirical evidence of God's existence when his love and wisdom is so ingrained in my intellect? Examine what you and I have said so far...not even your well-reasoned arguments have internal coherence. Just think about it.
@Apacalola Probably because they don't need to. ;-) God isn't a rapist. He doesn't rape people's minds...He can be ignored. In fact, he's easily ignored because he's a gentleman, to put it in simplest terms. Scientists are intelligent people, but that doesn't mean everything they say is true or well thought out. Why would you quote a scientist's views of God if he has a third grade understanding of who God IS? What if he hasn't sought knowledge of God in years? What an irrational thing to do!
@ThereWasADream You state: "Why would you quote a scientist's views of God if he has a third grade understanding of who God IS?" Your comment makes no sense since I didn't quote any one of the world's non-believing scientists. Their religious backgrounds encompass everything from none to sophisticated knowledge of various religions. You say god is a "gentleman". Why then, does this omnipotent gentleman allow 9,000,000 children to suffer and die every year from disease before age 5?
@Apacalola I shouldn't have said "you quote." I meant simply to say that many people, including you, seem to value scientist's statements next to fact on things other THAN science. Nevertheless, my point remains that scientists are not theologians.
You are quick to switch to another tired atheistic argument and I will be no less quick to point out your error. You blame this on God as if this is His fault. Why?
@ThereWasADream Many people listen to the statements by scientist and others claimed to convey truth and evaluate those statements based on whether or not there is verifiable evidence to support those claims. Many scientists make many claims that are at first viewed favorably by the scientific community because of what appears to be good evidence only to falsified at a later time by better evidence. Science is a method not a subject. It moves toward truth in fits and starts.
@ThereWasADream You ask why I blame god for the annual death of nine million children under age 5? I don’t because I don’t believe in the Biblical god. If there is a loving and all-powerful god, he would not create disease organisms that cause children to suffer and die horrible deaths. He would not create a worm that bores through a child’s eye. He would not create an Earth where natural disasters kill thousands of people such as the 2004 tsunami that killed 230,000 people.
@Apacalola Not even God could create a world within which people could act upon one another in free will and not have pain. Why would we want such a world, anyway, if we really understand what life is about? If you think that suffering is always completely bad, you are sorely without the full experience of life. I am not the only one who could tell you pain is a great motivator towards good, and true love propels us towards the good. Earthly death is nothing compared to eternal life anyway.
@ThereWasADream You state: “Not even God could create a world within which people could not act upon one anotherin free will and not have pain.” You denied a principal doctrine of the Catholic religion which declares that God is omnipotent and can do anything. Your claim that the pain suffered by those 9,000,000 kids who die before age 5 “ is a great motivator towards good…. “ defies reason. How are those innocent children motivated toward good when their only life experience is pain?
@Apacalola No, God's WILL is omnipotent, meaning that if God wills something, it can be done. He cannot defy his own will. God limits himself to provide us free will. I have not denied any Catholic doctrine. You claim to know the minds of those 9,000,000. I will not, because I only know in my own experience of pain that it has caused me to be grateful and strive to greater virtue. It is arrogant to say I know someone is ONLY experiencing pain. How do you justify this?
@ThereWasADream Your saying: “that if God wills something, it can be done” directly contradicts your previous assertion "that not even God could create a world within which people could not act upon won another in free will and not have pain.” Your attempt to let your god off the hook for imposing such wretched cruelty upon an innocent child who can have no comprehension of you and your god's cruel sense of “value” but only grimace in pain until dying in misery, is a complete failure.
@Apacalola You are trying to set up a scarecrow argument by ignoring what I've said. There was no contradiction, you simply must learn how to read. I find your judgement of other people's lives, pain or no pain, to be ignorant. I hope someday the pain you experience in your own life (because I am not wishing you pain, I know that because you are human you must have some) causes you to reflect on your own pursuit of love and goodness. That's what it's done for me, and THAT is why God allows it!
@ThereWasADream "Scarecrow" - What the heck are you talking about? Are you referring to a strawman argument? Your initial denial of Catholic Doctrine concerning the Christian God's omnipotence and subsequent claim that you meant something else is glaringly apparent. There is no need for me to reassert the absurdity of your claim that a god's imposition of pain on millions of children every year leads to love and goodness. You demonstrate the mind-numbing effect of religious brainwashing.
@Apacalola Err...strawman, yes. And no, I might have had a poor choice of words but I definitely didn't make a contradiction. Now you're moving from a strawman to an ad hominem attack, so this is the point where I say "cool story bro" and ignore you.
"Not even God could create a world within which people could act upon one another in free will and not have pain." Yes He could. He could confirm people in grace, and also move their wills so that they freely and spontaneously will only what pleases Him. They would therefore be acting as God willed & as they willed. To say otherwise is to say that the angels and Saints in heaven do not love God freely, but only under external compulsion - IOW, that they do not love Him.
@chesster423 As for goodness, I am troubled at your false dichotomy. I am of course still sad that my Mom died 6 years ago, but that doesn't mean I can no longer be really happy at the same time. Even YOU just exposed your false dichotomy. Are you starving yourself, or did you just say that you can neither eat nor waste food at all because there are thousands of people dying in starvation?
I was comparing a heaven-like life to hell-like life basing on reality. Not that I'm starving, I'm living in a life of contentment while others where suffering to death. I'm talking about the concept of Heaven and Hell to justify how ridiculous it can be for a all-loving man enjoying himself selfishly while billions are in great pain to INFINITY. And please don't be subjective over your matter.
He who asks question is a fool for a minute, he who doesn't, is a fool forever.
@Glasya666 Hell is not punishment from God, it is only punishment in the sense that it causes pain and anguish, by rejecting what God offers, humans place them selves in hell. there is one door in life, that is the door to heaven, god offers it, we reject his offer, the result is hell.
@Glasya666 God did not create hell. Hell is an absence of of God, people choose to separate themselves from God by willing sin instead of God. By choosing hate instead of love.
I think that the words "sin" and "hell" are old-speak for that which afflicts humanity -individually and collectively. The problem with those words is that they lack rational moderation because of their use in the context of the apocalyptic struggle of "good" and "evil". They have also been used abusively -scaring children with eternal hellfire and damnation is not my idea of compassion.
Arrrgh. Nobody told me the "new" way (which is, in fact, pretty old by now) of posting a video response. I actually didn't see it. So... putting it on now.
Father Barron, what about those who find joy in cruelty? They turn away from love and like it. Will hell be enjoyable to them if they choose to continue in their wicked ways that they find pleasure in?
the plain fact is that people reject hell because of their self righteousness. they think that the idea that they are deserving of such punishment as the Bible describes and Barron tries to wiggle out of is utterly unthinkable.
Knowing my sins i no longer need that luxury.
but neither do i need C S Lewis' attempts to fudge the issue.
we dont need clever arguments but real grace of the Spirit who convicts of sin
@Strefanasha It is, in fact, utterly unthinkable that there be any justification to punish 70 years by eternal torment. Human beings are capable of recognizing this. God, the pinnacle of justice, isn't. Go figure.
If you choose not to be convinced by arguments, that's your choice; please be aware that you then choose to give up on your right to take part in a grown-up discussion though; as those consist of exchanging arguments in order to convince each other.
Barron does nothing less than his duty in holding that hell is real. it shows the rottenness of modern religion that the obvious need to be commented on.
but he still fudges the issue by denying or trying to distance himself from the fact that God the Holy and Terrible condemns.
Hell is still eternal punishment, actual punishment. and to say the sinner suffers from the presence of God is unbiblilcal. hell is TOTAL separation from God,
THERE IS A MAJOR WAR BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL GOING ON RIGHT NOW
IT IS A WAR FOR SOULS NOT A WAR BETWEEN GOD AND LUCIFER (HE CANT FIGHT GOD) YOU MUST UNDERSTAND THAT THE DEVIL WILL DO ANYTHING TO DISPROVE HIS EXISTENCE AND OF HELL TO MAN EVERY MAN AND WOMAN MUST ENGAGE IN A TUG O WAR FOR THEIR OWN SOULS WITH SATAN IF YOU DON'T HE WILL DRAG YOUR SOUL INTO HELL IF YOU DO YOU WILL NEED ASSISTANCE FROM GOD AND HIS ARMY THE LORD ,MARY,THE ANGELS AND THE SAINTS
WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IN HELL OR NOT, YOU CAN LAUGH AT IT AND PEOPLE FOR BELIEVING IN IT BUT THE TRUTH WILL ALWAYS REMAIN
HELL IS REAL IF YOU DID YOUR RESEARCH TO TRY TO DISCOVER THE TRUTH INSTEAD OF FINDING OTHER NON BELIEVERS TO DISCUSS THE TOPIC YOU WILL FIND THAT HELL IS REAL AND ITS MOSTLY THE PEOPLE THAT DO NOT BELIEVE IN HELL THAT END UP THERE WHY ? BECAUSE IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN HELL AND SATAN YOU CANT FIGHT AGAINST HIM SMH AND IF YOU DONT FIGHT YOU WILL BE LOST
I seriously believe in the massa damnata. Jesus, Himself, even says that many will try to enter and few will get in. I, myself, may very well end up going to Hell. I'm pretty confident in that. I just hope God has mercy on me.
kubrox91 1 day ago
@kubrox91 I think that you may not be far from the kingdom of God. And yet, both you and I could easily be damned. May God save and have mercy on you and on me.
billybagbom 10 hours ago
@billybagbom the Good Lord will shower us with love if we ask for it and keep His Commandments.
kubrox91 10 hours ago
Father, it seems you are implicitly denouncing Calvinist doctrine, both on freewill and the nature of God. It would be great to see a video on your thoughts on Calvinism and particularly the Calvinist resurgence we are seeing in America.
brendos444 5 days ago
@brendos444 I do indeed renounce Calvinist doctrines on free will and the nature of God! After all, I'm a Catholic priest.
wordonfirevideo 4 days ago
@wordonfirevideo Yes of course :).. It would be great to see a Catholic perspective on Calvinism given its resurgence we are seeing in American culture at the moment. We are now seeing Calvinist mega churches with guys like Mark Driscoll and Francis Chan. I find this very worrying development. I could not think of anything worse than believing in Calvinist doctrine, at least the way it is being presented recently. I think we need a counter Calvinist reformation!
brendos444 4 days ago
@ndzoko Read the section by Boethius in The Consolation of Philosophy on omniscience and free will. They are not mutually exclusive. And it's not just verbal juggling.
Pi10sco 1 week ago
Hell is real. God does not desire anyone to enter the gates of Hell, however, Hell is very real. The danger of Hell is real. Please visit, share, comment on all my videos today.
juliantt11 2 weeks ago
For important truths on the traditional Catholic Faith, its necessity for salvation, proof of Catholicism in the Bible, creation, miracles, and what really happened to the Catholic Church after Vatican II, please visit channel: MHFM1.
8marioch 3 weeks ago
ah well in his last comments those who insist on not attending the party fck that crap wake up this is 2012 we dont need religious ideas fron 2000 ys ago from stupid mid eastern fools ! sheeple get a clue and use ur internet to research where the hell the fckn bible came from !
flexbrat 3 weeks ago
turn away from the fckn love of a fantasy god ah well fck that crap its all fckn fantasy ppl wake up the churches are so damn evil and have to go !
flexbrat 3 weeks ago
what jesus was referring to was the land dump in the holy city where ppl were burned alive/for crimes an full of flames an fire not an actual hell stupids ! it was a fckn dump next to the city ! if hell was real the devil wouldnt torture his homies fool , as those who went there would have the welcome mat ! got it !
flexbrat 3 weeks ago
watch?v=hL10TrrIsUg
pjaymulholland 4 weeks ago
Comment removed
badpanda84 1 month ago
Fr. Barron, how can you say God wants everyone to be saved? In Mark 4:12 Jesus himself says he teaches in parables to some people instead of explaining himself so that that they will look but never see, and will listen but not understand, lest they turn and be forgiven.
Mystagogia87 1 month ago
The Lake of Fire is prepared for the Devil and His Angels (Matt 25:41)
jofo817 1 month ago
Thanks for posting, I have learned something new.
raven22at 1 month ago
I agree totally. the North Korean authorities are not sending its people to jail and concentration camps for not crying during their leader's death. They themselves are sending to jail and torture by not honestly crying... Right?
muteskutes1 1 month ago
I realy like this video Father it's made me look at hell in a whole new way. But how dose this fitt into matt 7: 23 ? It sounds like the people want to go into heaven but Jesus says go away i never knew you!
Daniel151jesus 1 month ago
@Daniel151jesus We are judged by our actions in this life, not just by the yes or no we utter. Jesus said, "let your yes be yes and your no be no" and we read in the letter of James "Show me your faith without works and I will show you mine through my works " The implication being that a yes (belief) without follow through (action) is as bad as a no (unbelief).
RainBirdLori 1 month ago
The people who refuse to acknowledge hell are those who bask in sin and so don't want to really face the consequences of their "NO!" to God's Love. It's the denial of responsibility and accountability for ones actions, a typical relativist approach.
slaveofmary3 1 month ago
Well said Father, I really enjoyed the video and this has really helped strengthen my faith!
limalaister 1 month ago
If you believe in hell, you believe that god is the worst tyrant imaginable. Earthly tyrants murdered their opponents, and that is the end. But this loving , heavenly father tortures FOR ALL ETERNITY not only his opponents, but even those who happen to not believe in him. North Korea is a paradise compared to god`s realm
ndzoko 1 month ago
@ndzoko Did you watch the video?!
wordonfirevideo 1 month ago 9
@wordonfirevideo This is a nice idea -- but I would like to see you support this idea with scripture..
badpanda84 1 month ago
@wordonfirevideo Father Barron i think that this is a very good clarification about what the doctrine of hell is. I have commented and watched some of your videos. Im a Baptist myself, but i find them interesting. I think that an even better analogy to use when speaking of the doctrine of hell is the one that you used when you spoke about how humans are wired to God, and equated it to how we are wired to food by nature(continued)
jamaicanification 2 weeks ago
@wordonfirevideo food is a necessity for our physical survival. If we deny ourselves of food, then first we become hungry, then if it gets really bad we starve, and we eventually die. In the same sense if we deny the desire of soul which is God, we've spiritually starved it, and it eventually withers away(in the abstract sense). I least, thats what i get from an allegorical reading of scripture
jamaicanification 2 weeks ago
@ndzoko The point being made is that there is no "torture" in hell. There is torment, but no torture. Why torment? It's the torment of the loving embrace of a person that you hate. If you do not hate God then there is no hell. Stop thinking of it as a sort of torture chamber, it's nothing like that.
BTW, I'm not even a christian. I just understood the argument. ;)
dannytibi 1 month ago
@dannytibi If you want to nitpick and make a distinction between eternal torture and eternal torment. that`s just fine. Hell is infantilism anyway.
ndzoko 1 month ago
@ndzoko It's not nitpicking. The difference is crucial. Are the people who are having fun at a party "torturing" the person who retreats into a corner, and is bothered by the very same elements that make the party so much for the others? I think that your gut reaction to the concept of hell is what is infantile, anyway. The illustration could not be more clear.
dannytibi 4 weeks ago
@dannytibi If you believe in the existence of hell, you believe that thi god is the worst tyrant, the worst revengeful individual ever. Earthly tyrants kill their opponents and that is the end, but this loving heavenly father tortures for all eternity,not only his opponents, but even those who happen to not believe in him. Your idea of hell ,is not the idea of the meanstream of believers. Anyway, luckily, hell is infantilism.
ndzoko 4 weeks ago
@ndzoko Did you listen even to a few seconds of the video?!
wordonfirevideo 3 weeks ago
@wordonfirevideo I will, if you can give me ONE good reason why father barons explanation is better or more believable tahn the explanation of the thousands of his predecessors.
ndzoko 3 weeks ago
@ndzoko Listen to the argument: the possibility of Hell is predicated upon two more basic assumptions, namely, that God is love and we are free. You can't have those two claims without holding out the possibility of Hell. It has nothing at all to do with capriciousness or cruelty on God's part.
wordonfirevideo 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@wordonfirevideo namely, that God is love and we are free. You can't have those two claims without holding out the possibility of Hell.... So, your dogma is that this ALMIGHTY god is bound by the limitations of the human mind ??? If you are right, who set it up that way ? Allmighty means, that he has thousands of ways to do justice in the afterlife, for the sins committed in this life. Hell is not necessary and excludes , from the human point of view, an ALL LOVING god,
ndzoko 3 weeks ago
@ndzoko Because Barron's explanation is in line with what Orthodox Christianity has always taught. This idea of God as an aggressor is a heresy that has utterly engulfed the protestant world but it has very little grounding in historic Orthodox Christianity.
dannytibi 3 weeks ago
@dannytibi It is Jesus who explicitly taught hell exists and how it is real in the story of the rich man & Lazarus. He also taught that hell was not made for humans but for Satan & his angles. Jesus also taught that men do not have to go to hell particularly when you read the gospel of John. This father Barron is somehow teaching, not plainly, that "he is not sure if anyone is there (in hell); now that is heresy & denying what Jesus taught. Pope JPII taught the same thing.
bulyabalive 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@bulyabalive This teaching does not deny the existence of hell, it only reconciles it with what we know to be true about God, that he is light and love. To those who love darkness the light is scorching and painful.
dannytibi 3 weeks ago
@bulyabalive I admire the myriad of opposing views on every aspect of the bible and the gospels. It makes any outsider conclude that NONE is right. All religion is BULLS..
ndzoko 3 weeks ago
@ndzoko Or that the gates of hell will not prevail against the true church. :)
danielsiskandfriends 2 weeks ago
@dannytibi The Bible teaches who will go to hell & here are some:
Ps. 9:17 "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." Mat. 5:22 "..whosoever shall say, you fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Mat 5:28-29 Adulterly & lust; John 3: those who refuse to be born again unto God's family; 18 those who reject Christ; 19 those who love darkness because they do evil; Rev. 21-8 the fearful, unbelieving, the abominable, muderers, whoremongers,....
bulyabalive 3 weeks ago
@bulyabalive Would you mind defining " THE WICKED ". Than we will know if we go to hell or not . If you ask me, everybody is wicked to some degree, NONE IS PERFECT.
ndzoko 3 weeks ago
@ndzoko >>If you ask me, everybody is wicked to some degree, NONE IS PERFECT.<<
Correct. That is why there was a need for a Redeemer!
bulyabalive 3 weeks ago
@dannytibi ..sorcerers, idolaters, all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone; which is the second death. This is not exhaustive. Scripture talkes about hell more than people want to believe. It is a place and not something which a person lives here on earth without God's love as this Barron Father is teaching. God's love is around us here on earth even when we do not recognize it. Hell exists after death as Jesus taught in Luke 16:19-31.
bulyabalive 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@bulyabalive Witches, kill them. Homosexuals, kill them.fortunetellers, kill them. those who don`t listen to priests, kill them. those hitting their dad, kill them. those who curse their parents, kill them, adulterers, kill them. fornicators, kill them. people who believe in other religions, kill them. non-believers,kill them. fals prohets ,kill them. blasphemers, kill them. those who work on the Sabbath, kill them. This is the word of god !!
ndzoko 3 weeks ago
@ndzoko I do not believe that God tortures anybody. This is not something that is peculiar to me either, this has been the mainstream view in Eastern Christianity, (and in a few enlightened Western communities) since the beginning of the Christian era. Theologians like Tertulian, Augustine, Aquinas and Calvin are responsible for this view of God as an aggressor, but that is their theology, it is not Orthodox Christianity.
dannytibi 3 weeks ago
@dannytibi So, according to your point of view, the most influential theologians in christendom, Augustine, Aquinas,Calvin were wrong, but father Baron is right !! That`s Amazing. !! Is he a "Doctor of the Church " too ?. Father Baron is trying to put a reasonable cloak on an unreasonable proposition. Hell is fantasy, plain and simple.
ndzoko 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ndzoko Fr. Barron is one among many in the Western Church who are coming in line with what the Eastern Church has always taught. Research the tradition of the Eastern Church and you will see that every single Father of the EOC has taught this from Gregory of Nyssa to Alexandre Kalomiros. C.S. Lewis and N.T. Wright are 2 other examples of Westerners who have come to this conclusion as well. Augustine and Aquinas have little standing in the EOC, and Calvin is an outright heretic.
dannytibi 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ndzoko Not to mention, the Catholic Catechism itself supports Fr. Barron even apart from the teaching of the EOC: To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."
dannytibi 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@dannytibi The Catholic Catechism itself defines hell as being this spiritual state of definitive self exclusion from communion with God, not some sort of cosmic torture chamber. Glad to see the Latin`s are finally caching up to what the EOC has been teaching for 2,000 years.
dannytibi 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"The point being made is that there is no "torture" in hell. There is torment, but no torture. Why torment?"
Yet the bible makes it clear that there is burning fires in hell several times..
badpanda84 1 month ago
@ndzoko stfu god love's everyone even you, SO ACCEPT IT!
vontheborderline 3 weeks ago
@ndzoko One does not follow from the other. If one believes in earthly justice (the legal system) does it follow that you believe all judges are personally evil or the legal system itself is inherently evil? Of course not.
God judges sin. There's nothing tyrannical about that.
Yesica1993 2 weeks ago
@Yesica1993 Human justice( imperfect as it is) has a scale of transgressions and a corresponding scale of punishment, but this JUST(LOL) heavenly, father has only one punishment for all non-repentant sinners. ....HELL. How just can that be ??
ndzoko 2 weeks ago
@ndzoko Absolutely just, for the depth of wickedness we all have in our thoughts, words and actions. Remember, the standard we are measured by is not comparison to other people. (After all, we can ALWAYS find someone just a little better or just a little worse than ourselves!)
No, the standard we are measured by is perfection - God, Himself. Compared to perfection, who can stand?
Yesica1993 2 weeks ago
@Yesica1993 You have no evidence for this perfection of god. In fact you have no evidence for his existence at all.
ndzoko 2 weeks ago
@ndzoko There's plenty of justification for it, including the fact that you seem to have ideas of "just" vs. "unjust" - which ideas can only exist in the first place if there are objective standards of right and wrong.
Yesica1993 2 weeks ago
@Yesica1993 How did you come to such a silly conclusion ? Show me where these objective standards are written down .
ndzoko 2 weeks ago
@ndzoko From you! You are the one accusing God of being unjust. Or, at least, claiming that the concept of hell/punishment for sins is unjust!
Yesica1993 2 weeks ago
@Yesica1993/Show me these objective standards of right and wrong. Please. Thank you.
ndzoko 2 weeks ago
@ndzoko What reason do I have to believe that you have any interest in what I have to say? After all, you're not even paying attention to what I've said so far. I'll say it one last time:
YOU are the one claiming God's punishment for sin is unjust. (Even simply on the theoretical level, if you don't believe that God exists.) That, in itself, demonstrates that you have a sense that some things are morally right and others morally wrong.
Yesica1993 2 weeks ago
@ndzoko When someone pushes ahead of you in line at the movie theatre or the DMV, do you protest that you have been mistreated? If so, on what basis?
billybagbom 1 week ago
@billybagbom If you don`t see on what basis, what are you doing here , look out for a good psychiatrist,
ndzoko 1 week ago
@ndzoko What gives you the right to criticize or condemn the rude or selfish behavior of other people when they do things that are upsetting or inconvenient to you? Please answer the question.
billybagbom 1 week ago
@billybagbom What gives you the right to criticize or condemn... ; it`s called FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION.
ndzoko 1 week ago
@ndzoko "Freedom of expression." That's what the guy was doing when he cut in front you at the DMV line. So why are you right in being mad at him? Why isn't he just as right to use his (or her) "freedom of expression" to cut in front of you? Remember: There are no objective standards of right or wrong. (BUT you still might be able to take him/her in a fistfight, if it comes to that.)
billybagbom 1 week ago
@ndzoko After all, there are no objective standards of right and wrong. Don't you agree?
billybagbom 1 week ago
@billybagbom Socety dictates the standards of right and wrong. If you don`t agree, tell me on what basis the Aztecs should consider human sacrifice immoral ? On what basis would the people of Papoua New Guinee consider canibalism immoral , ?
ndzoko 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ndzoko Socety dictates the standards of right and wrong. If you don`t agree, tell me on what basis the Aztecs should consider human sacrifice immoral ? On what basis would the people of Papoua New Guinee consider canibalism immoral ,?
ndzoko 1 week ago
@ndzoko So you would defend the right of the Aztec to cut the hearts out of living human beings, and the rights of cannibals to eat other people. This is interesting. Would you also defend the right of South African whites to impose apartheid or the rights of agrarian American southerners to own slaves? If not, on what basis would you oppose them? (HINT: Bishop Tutu and William Wilberforce were not atheists.)
billybagbom 1 week ago
@billybagbom Oh, I get what you're saying now! WE, today, as The Enlightened Ones, The Epitome of All Wisdom and Knowledge, WE of the postmodern western secular society, the very Goal of all History (after all, what else is there, really?), yes: WE decide by a 51% vote (or majority consensus) what is and has ALWAYS been "right" and "wrong"! And the Christians are the bigots and the chauvinists.
billybagbom 1 week ago
@billybagbom I say, that in aztec society human sacrifice was moral to the extend that the aztecs societu approved of it. just like I say that in New- Guinee cannibalisn was moral to the extend that those people approved it. Are you claiming that slavery was not moral in biblical times. Read your bible. There is nowhere any objection to sell, buy or inherit slaves. I don`t condone apartheid, Apartheid was IMMORAL because a minority imposed it on a majority, who did not approve.
ndzoko 1 week ago
@ndzoko But (and I don't want to put words in your mouth), would you say any action can become moral if only we can get 51% of a given society to approve it? (The biblical point is well taken of course, but you must understand that in ancient times slavery was a human institution with a long and respected tradition.It didn't go back as far as marriage, but it went pretty far back.It was both evil and entrenched, and also eradicated by those who were enlightened by the Judeo-Christian tradition.)
billybagbom 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@billybagbom would you say any action can become moral if only we can get 51% of a given society to approve it? I am not into hypothetical discussions. I would say in that society that action would be 51 % moral. If the people accept that, than that action in my opinion is moral. There is no other standard for morality than human consent. Is there is one show it to me.
ndzoko 1 week ago
@billybagbom By the way I cannot accept your point of view that in biblical times slavery was a human institution with RESPECTED tradition. , Is it respectable because it`s in the bible ?.
ndzoko 1 week ago
@ndzoko No, it was "respected" in the sense that it was "accepted," much as gay marriage and abortion in present society. In fact, much as anti-semitism and racism has been in other societies in the not-too-distant past.
billybagbom 1 week ago
@billybagbom FINALLY a christian who admits there is slavery in the bible.
ndzoko 1 week ago
@ndzoko No. No. Slavery WAS "accepted" in Old Testament times, but a corner has been turned, according to the New Testament (Acts 14:16f; 17:30-31). Even to Israel herself, John the Baptist began by saying that the time had come to REPENT, for the kingdom of God was at hand (Mark 1:1-15). But you do believe that 51% majority dictates what is "moral"?
billybagbom 1 week ago
@billybagbom I probably would, if I was living in Aztec times. And you would probably too. We are living in 2011 and we do not approve of cannibalism or slavery NOW. I ask you again , if there is an absolute morality, where is it written down ?
ndzoko 1 week ago
@ndzoko It's written in your own inner being, in your soul, your "gut," whatever you want to call it. Whenever you protest against the actions of another person who says or does something that is offensive or hurtful to you, you are saying more than,"What you did was offensive to me." You're also admitting that is is WRONG (in the classic sense of the word) to do things that harm other people. Otherwise, why bother to respond at all? Your opinion about the matter would be just your opinion. See?
billybagbom 1 week ago
@billybagbom It's written in your own inner being, in your soul, your "gut.. The absolute morality in the guts of mass-murderers is of low quality
HM, Are you sure ? So, the absolute morality was written down in the inner being Of Hitler ? Stalin ? Pol Pot ? I think satan wrote his absolute morality down in those gentlemen.
ndzoko 1 week ago
@ndzoko I don't think Hitler is a particularly helpful individual to introduce to this discussion, but I think I see your point. I think people violate what we know in our guts to be truth and morality all the time. Some do so to the point of becoming quite scarred and disfigured in their inner lives. It doesn't mean they didn't know better; it means they had another agenda besides truth and morality. I assume that since you don't believe in God or the supernatural (?), "satan" is excluded, too.
billybagbom 1 week ago
Comment removed
ndzoko 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@billybagbom Didn`t you say that god has a plan for everybody ? If one can deviate from god`s plan, and force another outcome than the one foreseen in god`s plan. than this god is no longer omniscient. You can have either a fixed, unchangeable plan from god, or you can have an omniscient god. You can`t have them both. Only theology, the art of wordsmithing) can find a way around this.
ndzoko 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Hello allow me to butt in.
I watch this insane man called Father Barron on tv today 1/11/2012
These are actual words said by Barron, he made the fallowing assertion:
"God can't be known! even by the saints in heaven,but we must try to know him "
What an absolutely absurd affirmation, it alone is flagrant evidence of his irrationality & the irrationality of Christianity, and those who believe the nonsense that is religion!
Patambo2000 1 month ago
@Patambo2000
Since you religious folks are to slow to understand what his assertion means, I 'll tell you.
It basically means all of his own words, and all he claims about God, is meaningless!
Since by his own assertion he knows absolutely nothing about the being in discussion!
Patambo2000 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Dificilmente encontrare otro individuo tan repugnante como este desquiciado individuo llamado Barron. Nunca pense que era posible concebir tanta tonteria como las que habla este charlatan desvergonzado. Nomas le fata que diga que la tierra y la luna son cuadradas o triangulares.
Por favor gente eduquense para que les laven el cerebro estos charlatanes con sus cuentos chinos de que existe un amigo invisible llamado dios.
Patambo2000 1 month ago
I'm currently reading your And Now I Can See.... And I can tell you: I read a lot. In fact, I'm a compulsive reader. Reading between 1-3 books a week. And I mean this honestly: this is an absolutely wonderful book thus far. You seem to get it. You paint the picture I find so little of in the words of other Christians. You explain things with great lucidity, and in a way that most people would be willing to accept if they could move past their distaste for the Christian lexicon.
Much peace.
AZ0960036 1 month ago
I go in and out of the Catholic church like a revolving door. And I'm about to go out of it again...
1. Confession is weird. For whatever reason, my parish seems to advocate face-to-face confession. I went during advent and I swear the Priest gave me this look of, Awww its you:-(
What the hell?! Jeez, it's not as if I get in there and tell him some sort of perverted sexual sins. Or is that why he was disappointed, I don't.
2. Fanaticism is a little too prevenent by clery and staff.
DakotaY24 1 month ago
It's like my theology professor, Dr.Berry, would say: "I don't fail students. It's students who choose to not do the readings, review the material or pass the course."
Norrington516 1 month ago
Thank you very much Father =)
ferrymulyono 1 month ago
A few minutes ago I wrote a bad comment about you, Father, out of, so I perceive, a misunderstanding. In charity, I must ask, since it has to do with my misunderstanding: When you say the damned suffer God's Love, do you mean they are somehow with God, as in, in His Presence?
mariomusicmadness 1 month ago
@mariomusicmadness Sure. Whatever exists is in the presence of God. What makes the difference is how we react to that presence.
wordonfirevideo 1 month ago
@wordonfirevideo Is this the offical teaching of the catholic church??
Because if it is -- it wasnt alway the case.. are you saying the pope in the past were wrong when they claim hell was literial.
But if there was a hell it would probably be simlar to being tortured by the inqustion
badpanda84 1 month ago
I CALL BRAIN WASH!
mrjohnyrocketballsac 1 month ago
@mrjohnyrocketballsac I call: complete lack of a coherent counter-argument.
wordonfirevideo 1 month ago 9
Comment removed
Patambo2000 1 month ago
@mrjohnyrocketballsac I call time out!
billybagbom 1 week ago
By the way, CS Lewis's comment on hell being locked from the inside makes no sense, as it is established by the Church that once you are in hell you cannot escape it (unlike purgatory, from which you can go to heaven). So there is not possibility to "unlock" the door.
muteskutes1 1 month ago
@muteskutes1: CS Lewis was a book writer and initally a non believer. Then he believes, and suddenly he's a religious authority?
DakotaY24 1 month ago
Of course, by saying "reject" I simply mean commit a sin of, for instance, masturbation or not showing up for Mass on a Sunday, by which according to the Church, you separate yourself from God for eternity. By the way, even if we accept the evasive explanation that it is sinners who send themselves to hell, this very institution must still be credited to God, as the maker of all things. Why would he create such a cruel institution? Not even the cruelest governments torment criminasl for eternity
muteskutes1 1 month ago
And what about Limbo, Father? Have unbaptized infants rejected God too and decided they'd be better off in Limbo? Or is the whole idea a nonsense and the Church has been both wrong and extremely cruel for ages by spreading it.
muteskutes1 1 month ago 2
This is just an evasive explanation to present the hell sentence in more humane terms. The fact remains that it is not your decision to go to hell, you only decide to 'reject' God, not to go to hell. In fact you may not even believe in its existence. Just as it is the Government's, not your, decision for you to end up in jail. You only do the crime, you don't send yourself to jail. The only difference is, in the jail case you at least know for sure it exists.
muteskutes1 1 month ago
You, dear brother (I apologize if you prefer the term father), are a precious grace from God. Continue to speak that which is True, and spread the good news that God is not a fancy of the past, but an everlasting Good that penetrates even the depths of modern culture. As Lewis says "A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word 'darkness' on the walls of his cell."
God bless.
AZ0960036 2 months ago
So what you are saying, Father Barron, is that hell is not a literal place where people burn for eternity? It is merely a metaphorical rejection of the love of God? Also, what constitutes this rejection of God's love? If I, an atheist, reject the claims of God and Jesus as not being supported by enough evidence, am I rejecting the love of God? Or is rejecting the love of God merely going against the moral teachings of one of many religions and denominations?
josephferano 2 months ago
@josephferano
## To reject the Love of God is - ultimately - to reject all happiness, and to chose frustration and misery. Freely, deliberately, knowingly, for ever. The imagery of fire is a very faint representation of what we risk, if we turn for ever from the Only True Source of all joy. That is how important, and how vitally necessary, God truly is. To lose Him, is to lose all possibility of human fulfilment, of love, of peace, of good of any kind.
5355vbxjbj76rvn 2 months ago
This is the best explanation of hell that I've ever heard. Very enlightening. Thank you, Fr. Barron.
temeculaCA1 2 months ago
That was a very profound explination, that you I sincerely appreciate it.
TheRekcabOfTheD 2 months ago
Terrible video.
WolfSyndrome 2 months ago
Haters of God will know instinctivly that they don't want God when it comes time to meet him. Because they lived their lives believeing and preaching their hatred of Him. When their "nothing" really is "something". They will go to a place where all the other "haters of God" are. Could anyone be in a place where they hated everyone? They will KNOW that they're in the right place because of their freedom, beliefs and actions in this life. Good luck.
bheadh 2 months ago
I have a question, If our confessor says we dont have to make restitution for stolen things, is that decision accepted by God or do we have to make restitution in order to be forgiven?
HeavenJoans1 3 months ago
In the near death experiences I have seen, the person who died seems to automatically end up in Hell, due to their unsaved state and sinful condition. In otherwords, Hell appears to be the appropriate final destination for fallen humanity. The good news is, that our God of love, through Jesus Christ, sends people to heaven, who were otherwise going to Hell. Hallelujah!
voyagersystem 3 months ago
Fr. Barron, the Catholic church says God wants all men to be saved. But Jesus himself says in Mark 4:10-12
"unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."
It seems here that Jesus is choosing to express himself in a certain way so that some people will NOT be saved. What gives?
Mystagogia87 4 months ago
After reading the Inferno, I never understood why Virgil would reproach Dante for weeping at justice given to the condemned. It seems right that one would have empathy for others suffering. Your words tying Gods love to the fire in Hell cleared this up. For the greater the glory of God, the more the suffering in Hell! Their suffering is directly (or is it indirectly) relational with HIs love. Thank you for this teaching! May the Lord be with your spirit.
sdunlevy1 4 months ago
the last sentence confuses me, how can you say we don'even know if anyone is in hell? Didn't Jesus say it would have been better for Judas to never been born? I think the only way he can say that is by suggesting that Judas will go to hell. Also, he said that few enter the narrow gate (which leads to heaven) suggesting that maybe even a majority of people go to hell (I'm not sure if the Lord was speaking as a statistician there, but it certainly would not make sense if zero people were in hell)
Zami9000 4 months ago
@Zami9000 He said no one is OBLIGED TO BELIEVE anyone is in Hell. I'm sure, however, he really didn't have those two examples in mind. I'd love to see what he'd have to say about it.
ThereWasADream 4 months ago
@Zami9000 This type of teaching is deliberate attempt to lead people into hell. When God says there is hell, then there is hell. Suffering on earth is not hell. There is no love of God in hell, but there is love of God when one is still living in the physical body here on earth. People go hell because they reject the gift of salvation God offers through the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the only way to the Father. Believe God's Word, not confusing teachings.
bulyabalive 1 month ago
@bulyabalive What type of teaching are you referring to? I don't think I said anything in my comment contrary to what you said here, neither did Fr Barron in his video
Zami9000 1 month ago
@bulyabalive Do you think that God tortures people? This video is not saying hell does not exist, it is simply saying that God does not torture people. There is no confusion here, you are the one who is confused.
dannytibi 4 weeks ago
@dannytibi Who is your God?
bulyabalive 4 weeks ago
@bulyabalive reality rules fck all religions !
flexbrat 3 weeks ago
@flexbrat In your condition you should not concern yourself with God, heaven or hell.
bulyabalive 3 weeks ago
This video explains there is no after-life, no second coming whatsoever. If we die, we die, accept the reality. Christians should open their eyes and stop believing beyond reality nonsense.
Heaven and hell are just state of life. Heaven - joy, happiness, contentment, success, kindness, love. Hell - suffering, agony, pain, hatred, jealousy, wars.
Eternal life is impossible. If it is, it's really boring.
chesster423 4 months ago
@chesster423 You know this because you've died and come back to tell us? LOL Sounds to me like you're the one being unreal and nonsensical.
ThereWasADream 4 months ago
@ThereWasADream
And how certain are you that there is an eternal life? I said it's impossible for an eternal life for the reason it is contradictory. If you are a all-loving person in all kinds of goodness, can you enjoy your eternal paradise while billions of people burning in anguish and pain in hell? If you can still enjoy your eternal paradise, you aren't a all-loving person at all.
Same as on earth, you eat and waste food, without even realizing thousands of people dying in starvation.
chesster423 4 months ago
@chesster423 Funny thing is I'm not. At least, not empirically. I have all kinds of philosophical arguments and evidence from my own experience that He exists, and so I believe in Him. I find it a lot more compelling than atheism. Only a great fool demands empirical evidence for everything. "PROVE TO ME THAT YOU LOVE MEEE!!!" Lol.
ThereWasADream 4 months ago
@ThereWasADream
If great fools don't need evidence for everything, therefore there is no need for humanity to think any longer.
Humanity has the right to reason out, to believe what agrees with their own reason and own common sense.
chesster423 4 months ago
@chesster423 Reason does not equal proof. I might require proof of insurance, and proof that a drug is going to treat an illness, but why would I need empirical evidence of God's existence when his love and wisdom is so ingrained in my intellect? Examine what you and I have said so far...not even your well-reasoned arguments have internal coherence. Just think about it.
ThereWasADream 4 months ago
@ThereWasADream I wonder why 90% of the world's leading scientists don't recognize god's love and wisdom ingrained in their intellects?
Apacalola 3 months ago
@Apacalola Probably because they don't need to. ;-) God isn't a rapist. He doesn't rape people's minds...He can be ignored. In fact, he's easily ignored because he's a gentleman, to put it in simplest terms. Scientists are intelligent people, but that doesn't mean everything they say is true or well thought out. Why would you quote a scientist's views of God if he has a third grade understanding of who God IS? What if he hasn't sought knowledge of God in years? What an irrational thing to do!
ThereWasADream 3 months ago
@ThereWasADream You state: "Why would you quote a scientist's views of God if he has a third grade understanding of who God IS?" Your comment makes no sense since I didn't quote any one of the world's non-believing scientists. Their religious backgrounds encompass everything from none to sophisticated knowledge of various religions. You say god is a "gentleman". Why then, does this omnipotent gentleman allow 9,000,000 children to suffer and die every year from disease before age 5?
Apacalola 3 months ago
@Apacalola I shouldn't have said "you quote." I meant simply to say that many people, including you, seem to value scientist's statements next to fact on things other THAN science. Nevertheless, my point remains that scientists are not theologians.
You are quick to switch to another tired atheistic argument and I will be no less quick to point out your error. You blame this on God as if this is His fault. Why?
ThereWasADream 3 months ago
@ThereWasADream Many people listen to the statements by scientist and others claimed to convey truth and evaluate those statements based on whether or not there is verifiable evidence to support those claims. Many scientists make many claims that are at first viewed favorably by the scientific community because of what appears to be good evidence only to falsified at a later time by better evidence. Science is a method not a subject. It moves toward truth in fits and starts.
Apacalola 3 months ago
@ThereWasADream You ask why I blame god for the annual death of nine million children under age 5? I don’t because I don’t believe in the Biblical god. If there is a loving and all-powerful god, he would not create disease organisms that cause children to suffer and die horrible deaths. He would not create a worm that bores through a child’s eye. He would not create an Earth where natural disasters kill thousands of people such as the 2004 tsunami that killed 230,000 people.
Apacalola 3 months ago
@Apacalola Not even God could create a world within which people could act upon one another in free will and not have pain. Why would we want such a world, anyway, if we really understand what life is about? If you think that suffering is always completely bad, you are sorely without the full experience of life. I am not the only one who could tell you pain is a great motivator towards good, and true love propels us towards the good. Earthly death is nothing compared to eternal life anyway.
ThereWasADream 3 months ago
@ThereWasADream You state: “Not even God could create a world within which people could not act upon one anotherin free will and not have pain.” You denied a principal doctrine of the Catholic religion which declares that God is omnipotent and can do anything. Your claim that the pain suffered by those 9,000,000 kids who die before age 5 “ is a great motivator towards good…. “ defies reason. How are those innocent children motivated toward good when their only life experience is pain?
Apacalola 3 months ago
@Apacalola No, God's WILL is omnipotent, meaning that if God wills something, it can be done. He cannot defy his own will. God limits himself to provide us free will. I have not denied any Catholic doctrine. You claim to know the minds of those 9,000,000. I will not, because I only know in my own experience of pain that it has caused me to be grateful and strive to greater virtue. It is arrogant to say I know someone is ONLY experiencing pain. How do you justify this?
ThereWasADream 3 months ago
@ThereWasADream Your saying: “that if God wills something, it can be done” directly contradicts your previous assertion "that not even God could create a world within which people could not act upon won another in free will and not have pain.” Your attempt to let your god off the hook for imposing such wretched cruelty upon an innocent child who can have no comprehension of you and your god's cruel sense of “value” but only grimace in pain until dying in misery, is a complete failure.
Apacalola 3 months ago
@Apacalola You are trying to set up a scarecrow argument by ignoring what I've said. There was no contradiction, you simply must learn how to read. I find your judgement of other people's lives, pain or no pain, to be ignorant. I hope someday the pain you experience in your own life (because I am not wishing you pain, I know that because you are human you must have some) causes you to reflect on your own pursuit of love and goodness. That's what it's done for me, and THAT is why God allows it!
ThereWasADream 3 months ago
@ThereWasADream "Scarecrow" - What the heck are you talking about? Are you referring to a strawman argument? Your initial denial of Catholic Doctrine concerning the Christian God's omnipotence and subsequent claim that you meant something else is glaringly apparent. There is no need for me to reassert the absurdity of your claim that a god's imposition of pain on millions of children every year leads to love and goodness. You demonstrate the mind-numbing effect of religious brainwashing.
Apacalola 3 months ago
@Apacalola Err...strawman, yes. And no, I might have had a poor choice of words but I definitely didn't make a contradiction. Now you're moving from a strawman to an ad hominem attack, so this is the point where I say "cool story bro" and ignore you.
ThereWasADream 3 months ago
@ThereWasADream I hope you have a good life.
Apacalola 3 months ago
@ThereWasADream
"Not even God could create a world within which people could act upon one another in free will and not have pain." Yes He could. He could confirm people in grace, and also move their wills so that they freely and spontaneously will only what pleases Him. They would therefore be acting as God willed & as they willed. To say otherwise is to say that the angels and Saints in heaven do not love God freely, but only under external compulsion - IOW, that they do not love Him.
5355vbxjbj76rvn 2 months ago
@chesster423 As for goodness, I am troubled at your false dichotomy. I am of course still sad that my Mom died 6 years ago, but that doesn't mean I can no longer be really happy at the same time. Even YOU just exposed your false dichotomy. Are you starving yourself, or did you just say that you can neither eat nor waste food at all because there are thousands of people dying in starvation?
ThereWasADream 4 months ago
@ThereWasADream
I was comparing a heaven-like life to hell-like life basing on reality. Not that I'm starving, I'm living in a life of contentment while others where suffering to death. I'm talking about the concept of Heaven and Hell to justify how ridiculous it can be for a all-loving man enjoying himself selfishly while billions are in great pain to INFINITY. And please don't be subjective over your matter.
He who asks question is a fool for a minute, he who doesn't, is a fool forever.
chesster423 4 months ago
The only thing that can possibly deserve to burn in hell is the "god" that created it.
Glasya666 4 months ago
@Glasya666 Perhaps you could listen to the video again. My whole point is that God does not "create" Hell. Human freedom does.
wordonfirevideo 4 months ago 7
@wordonfirevideo What the hell is that supposed to mean?
Glasya666 4 months ago
@Glasya666 As I said, listen to the video again.
wordonfirevideo 4 months ago
@Glasya666 Hell is not punishment from God, it is only punishment in the sense that it causes pain and anguish, by rejecting what God offers, humans place them selves in hell. there is one door in life, that is the door to heaven, god offers it, we reject his offer, the result is hell.
1spoon1fork 1 month ago
@Glasya666 are the three sixes in ur screen name a coincidence?
jofo817 1 month ago
@Glasya666 God did not create hell. Hell is an absence of of God, people choose to separate themselves from God by willing sin instead of God. By choosing hate instead of love.
TheKevin9000 1 month ago
I think that the words "sin" and "hell" are old-speak for that which afflicts humanity -individually and collectively. The problem with those words is that they lack rational moderation because of their use in the context of the apocalyptic struggle of "good" and "evil". They have also been used abusively -scaring children with eternal hellfire and damnation is not my idea of compassion.
pogo265 4 months ago
Arrrgh. Nobody told me the "new" way (which is, in fact, pretty old by now) of posting a video response. I actually didn't see it. So... putting it on now.
alphabetablogger 4 months ago
Sadly, video replies don't seem to work at the moment, so... v=eyAvrtZPRng
alphabetablogger 4 months ago
Father Barron, what about those who find joy in cruelty? They turn away from love and like it. Will hell be enjoyable to them if they choose to continue in their wicked ways that they find pleasure in?
Jugglable 4 months ago
the plain fact is that people reject hell because of their self righteousness. they think that the idea that they are deserving of such punishment as the Bible describes and Barron tries to wiggle out of is utterly unthinkable.
Knowing my sins i no longer need that luxury.
but neither do i need C S Lewis' attempts to fudge the issue.
we dont need clever arguments but real grace of the Spirit who convicts of sin
Strefanasha 4 months ago
@Strefanasha Why do you believe the bible and what makes you think that hell is a "real place"?
SecularMJ 4 months ago
@Strefanasha It is, in fact, utterly unthinkable that there be any justification to punish 70 years by eternal torment. Human beings are capable of recognizing this. God, the pinnacle of justice, isn't. Go figure.
If you choose not to be convinced by arguments, that's your choice; please be aware that you then choose to give up on your right to take part in a grown-up discussion though; as those consist of exchanging arguments in order to convince each other.
alphabetablogger 4 months ago
Barron does nothing less than his duty in holding that hell is real. it shows the rottenness of modern religion that the obvious need to be commented on.
but he still fudges the issue by denying or trying to distance himself from the fact that God the Holy and Terrible condemns.
Hell is still eternal punishment, actual punishment. and to say the sinner suffers from the presence of God is unbiblilcal. hell is TOTAL separation from God,
not the party but willfull absence from it
Strefanasha 4 months ago
THERE IS A MAJOR WAR BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL GOING ON RIGHT NOW
IT IS A WAR FOR SOULS NOT A WAR BETWEEN GOD AND LUCIFER (HE CANT FIGHT GOD) YOU MUST UNDERSTAND THAT THE DEVIL WILL DO ANYTHING TO DISPROVE HIS EXISTENCE AND OF HELL TO MAN EVERY MAN AND WOMAN MUST ENGAGE IN A TUG O WAR FOR THEIR OWN SOULS WITH SATAN IF YOU DON'T HE WILL DRAG YOUR SOUL INTO HELL IF YOU DO YOU WILL NEED ASSISTANCE FROM GOD AND HIS ARMY THE LORD ,MARY,THE ANGELS AND THE SAINTS
cmgbeme 4 months ago
WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IN HELL OR NOT, YOU CAN LAUGH AT IT AND PEOPLE FOR BELIEVING IN IT BUT THE TRUTH WILL ALWAYS REMAIN
HELL IS REAL IF YOU DID YOUR RESEARCH TO TRY TO DISCOVER THE TRUTH INSTEAD OF FINDING OTHER NON BELIEVERS TO DISCUSS THE TOPIC YOU WILL FIND THAT HELL IS REAL AND ITS MOSTLY THE PEOPLE THAT DO NOT BELIEVE IN HELL THAT END UP THERE WHY ? BECAUSE IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN HELL AND SATAN YOU CANT FIGHT AGAINST HIM SMH AND IF YOU DONT FIGHT YOU WILL BE LOST
cmgbeme 4 months ago