Mitchell and Webb - Stalin Vs Hitler (arguing the moral toss)

[Jcolinsol]

The long and honorable history debate: where we find the HItler inside all of us.

[DannyPhantomBeast]

4 people feel very tired.

[lukessummerguitar]

Creationists...take heed, for you are born of witchcraft!!! (probably?)

[Xezlec]

I actually don't think it's that strange. History is how we learn what is and isn't a good idea. Of course the biggest moral failures of the past will figure large in any discussion of modern morality.

[demonliberal]

"This one is dedicated to the force for epic stupidity that is ben stein ("darwin leads to hitler")."

Actually, it's a parody of a Radio 4 programme called "The Moral Maze," hosted by Michael Burke, who used to stand next to starving Ethiopians looking sad, but now sits next to Claire Fox and Melanie Phillips and sounds cranky.

[demonliberal]

Actually, all of those statements are more sensible than anything Melanie Phillips has ever said. Satire pales in comparison.

[squamish4244]

it's really bizarre how so many internet arguments quickly degenerate into one or both participants comparing the other to the biggest assholes in history.

[SiriusPunk]

To be honest, I'm not going to lie but I'm an A-levels student (18yrs old) and I have absolutely no idea who this Stalin person is or what he does, even though I studied history :/

But this is still quite good, as is all ther work.

xx

[outsidepers]

@SiriusPunk Stalin was a communist dictator in russia during the early 20th centuary responsible for alot of economic issues in russia along with the death of millions. :)

[GBJ83]

@SiriusPunk um wow, a-levels means you are in the UK, so theres absolutely no excuse for this. Everyone reads Animal Farm or is that not in the high school curriculum any more? Wikipedia is your friend for a starting point, but seriously wow

[SiriusPunk]

@GBJ83 no animal farm isn't in the curriculum :S.. to be honest it sounds like a childrens book.

We learn about ww1, ww2, crime and punishment, medicine, and a bit about modern terrorism like 9/11 in history.

I read loads but no one's ever suggested animal farm before, and no one's ever metioned Stalin at school.

xx

[foxmcloud555]

@SiriusPunk You should read it, A child wouldn't really understand the themes involved. I read it in two years ago in year 12 and it's good.

[GBJ83]

@SiriusPunk at least your replied with politeness, and thats something that cant be taught at school so its all good. I suggest like foxmcloud, that you read it and check out other Orwell books if you get a chance, you can learn a lot from this guy. In fact I find movies are good if you dont ike reading so at least you get the themes

(ps you could have googled it before saying its a kids book :p )

[SiriusPunk]

@GBJ83 When I googled it a load of pictues of cartoon pigs came up, so I assumed I had been right, I'm guessing it's not really about a farm then?

Will have to read this book, but also I can't understand why this part of history would not be taught in school when I am assured by you, and other comments, of it's historical importance :S

Thanks anyway!

xx

[GBJ83]

@SiriusPunk it will only take a few hours to read, there is an animated film right here which I found for you

watch?v=NZldlyeR8DU

basically its set on a farm, where the farm animals decide they are doing all the work and dont see why the farmer should rule over them, they then rally and overthrow him... sounds good for the animals who are supposedly all equal now, but the interesting thing is what happens next when they try to rule themselves

[SiriusPunk]

@GBJ83 Is this it?:

The country..(Russia?) was under the control of an unfair capitalist leader who let the people struggle and the country go to ruin for his own gains.

There was a revolution and a communist leader took his place, though he was idealistic in his views about leadership and equality, he was quickly overthrown by a power-hungry dictator (Stalin?)

After this the state of the country spiralled downwards, eventually causing another revolution (this time with foreign support.?)

xx

[SiriusPunk]

@SiriusPunk Communist leader 1 being Snowball and 2 being Napolean.

No idea who they are in real life though, but I'm guessing Stalin was 2, and he didn't exactly practice what he preached..?

x

[GBJ83]

@SiriusPunk yes you got the gist of it! napoleon was meant to be stalin...basically it is trying to show that communism sounds good on paper, in theory, but it makes it easy for a power hungry dictator to take advantage.. he knew how to get people on his side , was very manipulative and hurt people who spoke against him

snowball is meant to be modelled on a guy called Trotsky who lost out to Stalin during the power struggle after the revolution and generally opposed Stalins rule

[GBJ83]

@SiriusPunk now I think is a good idea if you read or watch 1984 when you have time, i'm sure you'll like that one, I like because its about the working class losing their freedoms even further than in animal farm...eg in this one Boxer (or human working class) was made to work until he dies but he had some kind of choice, he just made the wrong choice to be loyal to a bad leader like Stalin because he was duped. Now imagine if someone could completely control your thoughts.... dun dun dun!

[foxmcloud555]

@GBJ83 I think that's a one off, I finished my A-levels last year with only the sciences and maths, but am most definitely clued up on Stalin. Animal farm is not in our curriculum any more for english oddly enough. I only took english to GCSE and our reading choices tend to be more about testing our knowledge of the concepts of the english language rather than social and political awareness. We do a lot of Shakespere and such. We usually leave orwellian ideas to general studies unfortunately :(

[GBJ83]

@foxmcloud555 sounds good, Im 27 now but school still seems like yesterday. We had eng. lit. and eng. language which I did for gcse but not a-level too. i dn't think we read it in history either, I do remember an inspector calls and lord of the flies in the baby years then of mice and men and orwell stuff maybe in the 3rd or 4th form but its hazy

i also realise that 911 must have taken up a lot of school time

Congrats on finishing your a-levels, I don't know if you are at uni yet, but gd luck

[SiriusPunk]

@foxmcloud555 yeah, it's not taught in school officially, and general studies in our school ended in my sister's year (above mine)... we did citizenship instead, I guess Stalin got inadvertently wiped from the curriculum :S

xx

[Kan2209]

I would think godwins law has it's basis on Hitler being a universal worse case scenario.It's universally accepted as being hard to top for being the worse. So the law might be that when the unprofessional debaters are going further and further away from common ground, it might, from a personal perspective seem that the other is metaphorically as far as Hitler to them. Also, as an argument goes far enough, people wil start admitting into things they have not thought of out of defencive stance.

[TheWonderfulWombat]

Pfft, everyone should have to listen to this before they are allowed to comment on any youtube video. :)

[adzug]

this is exactly what passes for real debate in america.

[Kan2209]

@adzug Sadly

[SecuR0M]

@adzug Hey, you know, at least Americans don't live in an Orwellian shithole. :D

[fritspas]

I agree with Mary.

[JakeLucGoodman]

this is genius

[kinggod654]

the disregard of stalin in north american elementary and high school history is appaling

[Misishaxi]

@kinggod654 it's the same in Britain.

[lelouch3]

@kinggod654 Indeed.

[666satanification666]

Haha, awesome. It is so true, people seem completely incapable of arguing a moral cause without somehow bringing Hitler into it.

[masteroftheobvious86]

@666satanification666

And they then immediately lose by doing so, as Godwin's Law states

[BrokenSplinter]

Was odd to find this after I watch QI on Germany.

This is know as (if remember correctly) Godam theory.

The longer an Internet Aurgument goes on for the more likely it is to desend into comparing it to Nazi. But it is at that point the augrument is over and is just slurring

[Athaeus]

@BrokenSplinter Godwin's Law actually.

[Kington99]

@BrokenSplinter it's Godwin's theory, but yes you were broadly right. When hitler is mentioned the argument is over and the mentionee automatically loses.

[paulbottomley42]

@Kington99

With, of course, the caveat, "unless the argument in question is actually about Nazi Germany"

:)

[pithie84]

@Kington99 , ahhh a fan of QI? love that show too

[Kan2209]

@Kington99 Unless, you are actually talking about Hitler. Hitler had other thoughts and deeds outside of his mass murdering racist tendencies. Comparing Stalin to Hitler, for example. Comparing Hitlers painting skills to someone else. Comparing Hitler's other political view points to someone else. There are many things about Hitler which one can discuss, but it helps if the topic is actually Hitler. In a moral discussion, one can also be as cold as Hitler, but to accuse someone is another issue.

[fudge1monkey]

scared the crap out of me when he said "angus" my name, caught me unawares. i wonder when i will get desensitized to hearing my own name...

[tigsdk]

Surprisingly many discussions on the internet go that way.

[aModernDandy]

That's not surprising! Saying something was surprising when it is not is EXACTLY what the nazis did in the second world war you idiot!

;) kidding of course! You're right, it IS surprising, and shocking how fast people compare others to fascists!

[Misishaxi]

@tigsdk Hell, just look down.

[TheBlackwaterDemon]

Oh man, that was hilarious - thanks for posting!

[sheepwshotguns]

reminds me of godwin's law

[TheDoctorWholigan]

@sheepwshotguns thats try as hell having argument with christen fundamentalist it went straight to hitler