Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the Remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
@caneishaprince You Asked --->Why was Jesus baptized? He was sinless.
It was not about Jesus being baptised by John in the river Jordan, for Jesus to be Saved. Jesus was without sin and did not need to be saved because he was the SAVER.
Jesus was Baptised was so that he could receive the Holy Ghost and in turn fulfill what John said that "one greater would come that would baptize with the Holy Ghost and Fire".Jesus now and then baptizes with the Holy Ghost and not WATER.
Abraham was given the Gospel of Jesus Christ {Gal 3:8}, ....and Abraham "Believed God" ...so if "water baptism" is part of salvation, then why did not Abraham get water baptized simply on the basis of prophecy alone. I mean if it carries ALL the GREAT WEIGHT of importance that you C-of-Cers PUT on it, then Abraham would have WANTED to be H2o baptized, out of FAITH alone....having always BELIEVED GOD. He would have known, or did Abraham ALSO KNOW H2o Baptism was only symbolic, as we do.
" Baptism, however, is not our work, but God's (for, as was stated, you must put Christ-baptism far away from a bath-keeper's baptism). God's works, however, are saving and necessary for salvation, and do not exclude, but demand, faith; for without faith they could not be apprehended. ... continued
"cont. ...Thus you see plainly that THERE IS NO WORK DONE BY US , but a treasure which He GIVES US, and which faith apprehends; just as the Lord Jesus Christ upon the cross is not a work, but a treasure comprehended in the Word, and offered to us and RECIEVED BY FAITH. Therefore they do us violence by exclaiming against us as though we preach against faith; while we alone insist upon it as being of such necessity that without it nothing can be received nor enjoyed.
"Faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law; faith it is that brings the Holy Spirit through the merits of Christ. The Spirit, in turn, renders the heart glad and free, as the law demands. Then good works proceed from faith itself. That is what Paul means in chapter 3 when, after he has thrown out the works of the law, he sounds as though the wants to abolish the law by faith. No, he says, we uphold the law...."--Martin Luther, "Preface to the Letter of St. Paul to the Romans"
" But if they say, as they are accustomed: Still Baptism is itself a work, and you say works are of no avail for salvation; what then, becomes of faith? Answer: Yes, our works, indeed, avail nothing for salvation; BAPTISM HOWEVER, IS NOT OUR WORK BUT GOD'S, (for, as was stated, you must put Christ-baptism far away from a bath-keeper's baptism). God's works, however, are saving and necessary for salvation, and do not exclude, but demand, faith; "
@Ydnar0591 - Dont give me that baloney about all the people who wont be saved because of lack of water in your rare battlefield situations. God is fair and just and will deal with them as He sees fit, But for the rest of us , we are commanded to obey this and teaching others to willfully reject this is rebellion against God.
@ Ydnar0591- Im still waiting for a reply to my question concerning Simon the Sorceror. Your question neither answers nor invalidates the truth of those circumstances. You hold the opinion that the Seal of The Holy Spirit comes from belief alone, then why was this believer trying to purchase the Holy Spirit from Peter ?
Just his attempt at doing so proves he obviously DID NOT have the Holy Spirit, because no Spirit filled person would have done this. And HOW was the Holy Spirit being given ?
@ydnar0591- My answer to your question concerning Ephesians 1:13-14 , Yes of course being Sealed with the Holy Spirit comes only after belief and requires belief. This scripture not only tells us that they were sealed after belief, but it also includes the neccesity of HEARING the WORD of TRUTH , THE GOSPEL, the very thing that you reject was neccessary . But even further , this scripture tells us that they heard the Gospel and TRUSTED . And what does the Gospel command ? - BE BAPTIZED.
Then in YOUR religion there will be a lot of people who can't be saved , if there are in a situation where water is not available when they want to be saved. God would not make Salvation so diffacult.
Like I have already said , I'm sure there have been many young men die on the battle field who heard the Gospel and wanted to believe and trust God for salvation but HAD NO WATER. 2 world wars and a ton of other wars, and men on both sides. Frozen areas and deserrts,crashing planes.
@ydnar0591 "Then in YOUR religion there will be a lot of people who can't be saved , if there are in a situation where water is not available when they want to be saved." Pardon me, but it seems that not only do you tell us what YOU believe, you ALSO tell ME (and Bobsblues) what WE must believe." No wonder you take such offense at "where no ability to obey exists, God's grace is sufficient." At the time, I didn't realize that such a charitable statement of belief was a FRONTAL ATTACK on you.
@ydnar0591 "Exactly how many ways to you have of being saved OR Not saved?" ONE PLAN, ONE WAY of salvation since Adam sinned: TRUST in GOD, REPENTANCE from sin, OBEDIENCE to whatever God commanded. That will work from Adam on down to 2011.
That depends on the word "do". Believe yes, works yes BUT ...only by faith..... but the works of faith do not SAVE. Your works should be "want to" NOT ...."have to"...God will not accept "have to" for salvation.
The Pharisee {sinner} Beginning at LUKE 18:9 was bragging on all his giving, fasting, praying etc.
The publican {sinner} simply ask God for MERCY, and Jesus said THIS MAN went down to his house JUSTIFIED rather than the other. LUKE 18:9-14. I will stand on FAITH.
@ydnar0591 "God will not accept "have to" for salvation." Sure He will. "Unless ye believe that I am He, ye shall die in your sins." "Without faith, it is impossible to please God." "Unless ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." "Unless a man is born of water and of the Spirit, he shall not enter ... " Those are all conditional phrases - "have to's". If you HAVE TO "DO" something, and you DO that particular something, and you DID it, and no one else DID it for you, then you WORKED.
You totally MISSED the point. I was not talking about FAITH & Repentance. I meant "have to" DO the LAW or COMMANDS for salvation. That he won;'t accept. Faith is about the "WILL" not "WORKS".
@ydnar0591 I don't think I missed the point: the bottom line is that you draw some sort of false distinction between "mental" work and any other work, and, once that pseudodistinction is drawn, you'll affirm that the mental work is NECESSARY to salvation, but any other work is NOT. Now I think that's it in a nutshell.
@ydnar0591 “I am going to maintain that there is no act at all that any man in the Old Testament time or the New ever had to perform in order to be saved. Salvation is received by faith, and faith is the only thing you can do without doing anything.” Ben Bogard, 1938, in discussion with N. B. Hardeman. Do you note the logical contradiction there?" I had asked if YOU notice any contradiction in Mr. Bogard's statement? I do, and most others would, I think, but I'm not so sure YOU do.
@ydnar0591 "I don't care what YOU are sure of about ME." I don't think ANYTHING about you personally - you're probably a nice person. Your RELIGIOUS THEOLOGY is contradictory and illogical, but that means nothing about you, personally. There are some "nice" people among the Hindus and Moslems. The fact that you can BELIEVE (and not boast), then REPENT (and not boast), but if you have to be BAPTIZED you "boast" about it, IS a little silly, but is not a PERSONAL thing.
I sincerely beieve that God does not want us to be a bunch of do or die Christians and FEAR him for the wrong reasons. Reverence is the kind of fear we should have.
I have been baptized, beacuse I wanted to do what the Lord said. That's the reason I was baptized and that is obedient. That's why we try to do everything he commanded, BUT if we were saved by keeping the commandments then we must keep them all .....Galations 5:3-4
@ydnar0591 "That's why we try to do everything he commanded, BUT if we were saved by keeping the commandments then we must keep them all" You know I can FLIP that on you: it is a FACT that we are commanded to REPENT, isn't it? And you teach that one MUST KEEP that commandment, don't you? So by your own reasoning (which is contradictory, by the way), since you teach we MUST repent (a command) "then we must keep them all". That would include baptism, by your own deductions.
@ydnar0591 "Faith and repentance do not require physical action." So? I certainly consent that one may do a mental or spiritual WORK without "lifting a finger". But bear in mind, the person STILL DID IT. If you DID it, whether physical, mental, or sitting on a stump in-between, it's STILL a work. To be anywhere in the ballpark, you have to claim that "works" only means "physical works", and somehow EXCLUDES "mental works". I've never met anyone willing to take that on.
@ydnar0591 "Faith is an invisible action in the heart." So? It's an action YOU took, wasn't it? Either YOU did it, or it was done FOR you (in which case you were passive).
@ydnar0591 "This is getting borinly redundant." Probably because you know that faith (belief) and repentance are active mental works. Being baptized is a passive physical work. And the difference in "working" among faith, repentance, and baptism is the difference between tweddle-dee and tweedle-dum. It's an imaginary "difference."
@uwique "repentance=remission of sins,,not baptism..got it get it good!!" Umm... you having a half-price sale on remission? "Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you ... unto the remission of sins." "Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins." Yeah, I think I got it good.
@ydnar0591 "The definition of faith is "things unseen" in Hebrews 11." LOL No, it's not - faith is the EVIDENCE of things not seen. It's not a "leap-in-the-dark" at all. Faith is based upon logical, rational reasoning concerning the EVIDENCES which are presented both in the Bible and out of it.
@ydnar0591 "I will stand on FAITH." I hope you do, but please don't try to "stand" on "faith only" - a dead, inactive, "of no force" faith such as James described. What avails? "Faith WORKING through love." The word "faith" is often used as a synechdoche for the entirety of man's response towards God, so as long as you are standing on the all-encompassing "faith once delivered", you'll be fine. When a man tries to stand on faith without repentance, for instance, he is on shaky ground.
@ydnar0591 You can't get it into your head that when (1) one HEARS, (2) one LISTENS, (3) one CONTEMPLATES, (4) one STUDIES, (5) one WEIGHS the evidence, (6) one DECIDES in favor of Jesus, and one (7) repents of his sins ---- he has DONE something ... and DOING SOMETHING is a work, whether mental or physical. That's another logical inconsistency - just like "faith" and "repentance" being inseparable, when you know they ARE.
@ydnar0591 "“I am going to maintain that there is no act at all that any man in the Old Testament time or the New ever had to perform in order to be saved. Salvation is received by faith, and faith is the only thing you can do without doing anything.” Ben Bogard, 1938, in discussion with N. B. Hardeman. Do you note the logical contradiction there? Sounds DIFFERENT when someone else said it, but that's YOUR position exactly, and Bogard tried to affirm your position on baptism when he said that.
To the contrary I take NO offense at anything or anyone. I only try to help . Even God does'nt MAKE or FORCE anyone to be Saved, or lost. I believe God's Grace is sufficient "ALL THE TIME". God's Grace trumps everything. This does not mean that verses are not correct they are. It just means that God's Grace is greater.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: Many verses are trumped by Grace.
@ Ydnar0591 - If you hold the opinion that a person is sealed and recieves the Holy Spirit at the point they believe, then how do you explain the fact of Simon the Sorceror , offered to purchase this from the Apostle Peter ? The scriptures state that he was a BELIEVER so then why didnt he have the Holy Spirit ?
@ ydnar 0591 - you said - " When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,"
BOLONEY - Read the TRUTH
Acts 19
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye BELIEVED ? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
" In order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may OBTAIN IN THE WATER THE REMISSION OF SINS FORMERLY COMMITED , there is pronounced over him who chooses to be Born Again, And Has Repented Of His Sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the Laver the person that is to be Washed calling him by this name alone. - continued
cont. - For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness. And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed. "
@ ydnar0591 - So in other words you're trying to sell us that repentance is also just an outward sign of an inward grace. WRONG - its Repent and Be Baptized FOR FOR FOR ,[ As in To Obtain ] Remisssion of Sins, Not because Of. How Long will you be in denial of the wording of that passage ? Just cant make your phony baloney belief system line up without rewritting passages .
@ lllannallll - @Bobsblues Absolutely every ... EVERY ... writer of the early church taught that baptism is "for" - "unto" - the remission of sins, and NOT ONE ever had the temerity to say "eis" means "because of" in Acts 2: 38. Not only that, but NO Greek lexicon gives "because of" as the meaning, and even Thayer (an Episcopalian) said "to obtain the forgiveness".
How in the world can they believe that All the early church writers could'nt read Greek properly ? Total reality denial !
The "simplicity " really IS quite simple isnt it ? Peter told it to us, 'Repent and be Baptized FOR the Remission of sins . No baptism = no forgiveness of sins. Its just That simple. But you writhe and twist and turn like the Pharisees of old in order to make this of No Effect.
They already BELIEVED unto SALVATION just like Cornelius and his friends in Acts 10:43-47, now Peter is telling them to openly REPENT and then be baptized to demonstrate their FAITH in what they BEILIEVED ...in Acts 2:38.
@ ydnar0591 - What occured in the case of the Cornellius group in Acts 10 was a special event to show Peter that the Gentiles were also to be included in the New Covenent. Had God not brought the Holy Spirit onto these people as proof , Peter would never have believed that these people were to be accepted. Is this an example of how it will happen to for others ? NO WAY ! ,we are shown the proof of this as Paul had to re-baptize people and lay hands on them in order to recieve the Holy Spirit.
@ ydnar0591 - The FOR in -repent and be baptized FOR the remission of sins, is to obtain remission of sins , not because they have already been remitted. The modern perverters of scripture try rather hard to bend that passage backwards , but ive not seen even one of the early church writers who interpret the greek eis as ' because of ', they ALL render it as ' to obtain '. Are we to believe that the whole of the early church world couldnt read Greek properly that was contemporary to their time?
@Bobsblues Absolutely every ... EVERY ... writer of the early church taught that baptism is "for" - "unto" - the remission of sins, and NOT ONE ever had the temerity to say "eis" means "because of" in Acts 2: 38. Not only that, but NO Greek lexicon gives "because of" as the meaning, and even Thayer (an Episcopalian) said "to obtain the forgiveness". And NO reputable translation gives a "because of" meaning, either. So the early writers, lexicographers, and translations are ALL WRONG? LOL
Verse 43 of Acts 10 says that whoever Believes in HIM recieves remission of sins. Then the Holy Ghost falls on then in Vs 44, when they HEARD the WORD. They were not H2o baptized until verse 47, AFTER the manifestations of the spirit were alrady evident.
Therfore the word FOR in Acts 2:38 has to mean "Because of" remission of sins.
@ydnar0591 "Therfore the word FOR in Acts 2:38 has to mean "Because of" remission of sins." Ummm .... that's not quite the way you should go about determining the MEANING of "eis". Tell you what: the ASV (1901) is STILL the standard text for quite a few colleges and was translated by 101 of America's best scholars. The verse reads, "Repent ... be baptized ... UNTO the remission of sins." Why don't you try twisting UNTO into "because of"?
@ydnar0591 "Verse 43 of Acts 10 says that whoever Believes in HIM recieves remission of sins. Then the Holy Ghost falls on then in Vs 44, when they HEARD the WORD." The EVENTS of Acts 10 are FACTUAL and INERRANT, but not necessarily IN ORDER. You are quoting step-by-step AS IF they are in chronological order. Acts 11 IS in order, and so states this fact. The baptism of the Spirit occurred JUST AS PETER BEGAN TO SPEAK - and was not for the purpose of demonstrating salvation.
Oh really? Is that also what happened in ACTS 2:38? You are trying to make God's word conform to you , instead of conforming to the Word.
You can be saced by water baptism in your version of the Gospel, if that's what you want. No one is trying to stop you from doing what you want. God gives us all a free will.
Go for it.
Why worry about it ? Don't fret over things you believe if you really believe them , just believe them and get on with life..
@ydnar0591 "ACTS 2:38? You are trying to make God's word conform to you , instead of conforming to the Word." Nope, it appears in Acts 2: 38 than a gospel message was preached, people BELIEVED IT, they were pricked in their hearts, and cried out "Men and brethren, what shall we DO?" The answer is as follows: (1) Repent - well, WHY? Because they HAD NOT DONE SO, apparently, (2) be baptized - well, WHY? (3) "unto the remission of sins." Then what? (4) Receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
" And when we come to refute them, we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith. For the Baptism instituted by the visible Jesus was for the remission of sins "
@ ydnar0591 - Its not God you have to thank for those who have been taught to reject baptism. As for those who follow " Another Jesus ", the Real Jesus commanded baptism and had disciples traveling with him who did exactly that, and who continued to do and command others to do the same .
|||anna||||, I've seen many of your posts and it brings me great joy to see someone as strong in the word as you are. Cheers.
As for hypothetical questions, I don't know that it really gets anyone anywhere. We can ask "what if..." to anything, for instance, what if someone lives their lives mostly faithfully and loves God but sins right before they die? Are they condemned? What good does it do to ask that?
What we have is the Word of God, what we know is the Word of God, let's stick to it.
How would YOU pull off this 3 rd part of salvation if you were lost, had heard the Gospel and had not yet made up your mind. Then you get on a 747 Jet and after about an hour the plane starts to go down. Death is a certainty, what would you do?
This time answer the question instead picking out the easy part and ignoring the stuff you have no answer for. You've only done that abou a couple dozen times. Did you think I did'nt notice that you pruposely avoid parts of the comments.
There you go putting water in VSs again, that is'nt there.Jesus bap. with HS
2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied. 4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
lllannallll Actually there was not Campbellite Church of Christ until 1820's. Alexander Campbell had to be baptized by a baptist preacher in 1812. The CofC did not have the doctrine of salvation by water baptism back then.
@ydnar0591 "Actually there was not Campbellite Church of Christ until 1820's." There still isn't. One thing's for sure: there was the CHURCH back then in AD33 - the church, the church of Christ, the church of God. I can call the church "the church by Christ Jesus", "the church of Christ", "the church of God", etc without OFFENDING ANYONE. However, when I step OUTSIDE THE BIBLE and start INSULTING the church by NAMING some SECT after BAPTISM, I'm on shaky ground.
@ydnar0591 "Yes Jimmy Allen tried to say that Jesus had not died yet, the Bible makes it clear that the Blood of Jesus Christ Cleaneth us of ALL sins." Jesus was ALIVE when the THIEF was SAVED, and YOU are in the position of saying YOU want to BE SAVED under the SAME TERMS as a Jewish thief who LIVED and WAS SAVED under the JEWISH LAW. The Great Commission had NOT EVEN BEEN GIVEN at that point; there was NO HOLY SPIRIT given; the Lord's church did NOT EXIST - yet you cling to your thief!
@ydnar0591 "Yes Jimmy Allen tried to say that Jesus had not died yet, the Bible makes it clear that the Blood of Jesus Christ Cleaneth us of ALL sins." Jesus was ALIVE when the THIEF was SAVED, and YOU are in the position of saying YOU want to BE SAVED under the SAME TERMS as a Jewish thief who LIVED and WAS SAVED under the JEWISH LAW. The Great Commission had NOT EVEN BEEN GIVEN at that point; there was NO HOLY SPIRIT given; the Lord's church did NOT EXIST - yet you cling to your thief!
@ydnar0591 Well, for all I know, YOU might be a THIEF, and you might be SAVED - but if so, I'll guarantee you weren't SAVED like the thief on the cross. I'm quite sure he was never baptized with the baptism of the Commission because IT HAD NOT BEEN GIVEN. He was never "added to the church" - there WAS NO CHURCH of CHRIST until Pentecost. If he ever had the Holy Spirit, scripture fails to record it. I think it's dangerous to look to our favorite thief as a good example of NT conversion.
This is not my first encounter with this doctrine. I have looked at the totallity of scrpitures that deal with this subject and I wanted for years to know the truth NO MATTER WHAT TRUTH IS. I would be a fool not to. I would NOT allow stupid PRIDE to keep me from Salvation. Therfore I connot believe this doctrine in the total context of Scripture.
Faith & Repentance are with the mouth, confessing Christ, Romans 10:9... but H2o Baptism, is "physical works" of MAN, to boast of.
@ydnar0591 "Faith & Repentance are with the mouth, confessing Christ, Romans 10:9... but H2o Baptism, is "physical works" of MAN, to boast of." LOL you can't "boast" of baptism: what's there to "boast" about? Confession WITH THE MOUTH is definately a "work": you DID it, didn't you? God sure didn't DO it - YOU DID. You HEARD the word, you PONDERED it, you STUDIED it, you ACCEPTED it, you BELIEVED in Jesus Christ, you REPENTED - then said, "Praise God, it wasn't of works, or I'd boast."????
What I'm saying with the 747 thing IS why would GOD make it so diffacult for a person to be saved in places where you cannot get water, when your life is on the line. That does'nt make sense.Now don't tell me I should have thought of that before, because like the thief we don't know for sure when we will get saved, nor why. He did it for obvious reason he was about to die.
Peter denied Christ to SAVE his life.
I'm sure many have been saved by FAITH going down on a big jet.
@ydnar0591 Think about how you sound - saying being a PASSIVE RECIPIENT of water baptism is a "work to boast of", yet INHALING on your own, OPENING YOUR MOUTH on your own, and CONFESSING your faith own your own - and being an ACTIVE PARTICIPANT, at that - somehow "slides by". WHO believed? YOU did, that's who. WHO repented? YOU did, that's who. WHO confessed? YOU did. Can you BOAST OF IT? No - you can't "boast" that you were PASSIVELY baptized, either. If so, that's some strange boasting.
Faith and repentance are inseprable, they are an invisible "Action of the heart" . Repent and believe are the 2 things that can be done anytime, anywhere, any place....In the Frozen north of Anartica....in the hot sands of the Sahara desert...on top of the highest mountain, in a 747 plane at 30,000 ft..."FAITH" can work anywhere...with "baptism" you need WATER, and it has to be deep enough for emmersion, you must have someone to baptize you, and it must be another believer !?
@ydnar0591 "Faith and repentance are inseprable" Certainly they are SEPARABLE. The 3,000 on Pentecost BELIEVED first, and Peter KNEW that: he THEN commanded them to REPENT. For a person to REPENT, he must have Godly sorrow for his sins - unbelievers generally have NO SORROW. For a person to REPENT, he must recognize the goodness of God, unbelievers frequently do not even BELIEVE in ANY GOD. Believing/trusting in Christ is ONE THING; repenting of one's sins is quite another.
Maybe in your case that's true BUT to true believers YOU cannot separate the 2 things....If you understand the Gospel YOU cannot TURN to one...... BELIEVE...withoput TURNING from the other...... REPENT
Why do people misquote this verse "Godly repentance?" That verse simply means what it means in Acts 20:21.
21Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, "repentance toward God", and ...."faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ".....ACTS 20:21
Godly repentance is a repentance in a Godly MANNER...and NOT like the world repents...the world Does'nt repent if they love their sins.2 Cor 7 speaks of this issue.
Vs 10 says godly sorrow that brings salvation..which is by Faith.
@ydnar0591 "you must have someone to baptize you, and it must be another believer !?" Oh, the necessity of another person is kinda weak. "Faith cometh by hearing." Pray tell, if that's how FAITH comes, how do you propose to HAVE FAITH without ever having HEARD ANYTHING. And if HEARING is necessary, then logically, ANOTHER PERSON did the talking. And if FAITH - by a stretch - came by READING THE BIBLE, then ANOTHER PERSON penned it. Some you have human agency either way.
How are you going to be water baptized though 6 ft of ice, or in the desert, or on an Air Plane, or a mountain top?
What does all that have to do with being water baptized by another believer.we were talking about your doctrine,h2o
The believers baptixed each other AFTER they were Saved.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Timothy 3:16
Unbelievable ! In order to spare a "non essential" doctrine like H2o baptism you are willing to sacrifice the 2 "essential doctrines" of "Believing and repentance" and say that they are WORKS. There are hundreds of commands of Christ for Christian living, water baptism is only one of them. If I were going to pick a non-essential {TO Salvation} doctrine it would be "Soul winning". Jesus commanded us to Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature, {souls or H2o?}
@ydnar0591 "you are willing to sacrifice the 2 "essential doctrines" of "Believing and repentance" and say that they are WORKS." They are not works of HUMAN MERIT, and NEITHER is water baptism. What's AMAZING is that you think "not of works, lest any man should boast" even vaguely refers to baptism. You can't "boast" of your baptism: you didn't EARN anything by being baptized, and you didn't even dream up the idea. In baptism, you were PASSIVE from start to finish.
@ydnar0591 "There are hundreds of commands of Christ for Christian living, water baptism is only one of them." That sounds more like the language of a Baptist Manual than the Bible. Suppose I do the same: I'll just ASSERT that I'm not willing to "sacrifice the essential doctrines of believing, repenting, and being baptized." Then I'll ASSERT that the THREE are inseparable - all part of the synecdoche of "living faith."
Assert whatever you want. I still say God would not limit the places a person can get saved by adding water baptism to the "Saving Faith".
2 World wars, Korea, Viet Nam, Iraq, Afganastan, the Civil War, etc etc are good examples of places where millions died with NO place to be baptized, but you can bet your life they remembered what grandma & grandpa taught them or they heard the preacher say on Sunday. There are no atheists in foxholes and there's usually no water either.
@ydnar0591 "There are no atheists in foxholes and there's usually no water either." And there's usually PLENTY of water in a Baptist church building, but they will usually WAIT until they have HEARD and ASSESSED your "EXPERIENCE", then VOTE on whether you're geniune or a faker, then might wait a MONTH til they can pack the house with aunts and uncles for a "baptismal service." I'd rather take my chances in a foxhole than follow the Baptist formula. And I suppose you would also.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. JOHN 15:13
These men, most of whom were only 18-21 years old {had not even lived yet} & killed in World wars to keep us free. Why would a loving God allow these YOUNG men to die who had heard the Word, and believed when they were pinned down by enemy fire & CRIED out to God for help, and were DENIED "ETERNAL LIFE" because there was NO water for baptism. NO, I'm sorry, I can't believe that.
@ydnar0591 " they were pinned down by enemy fire & CRIED out to God for help, and were DENIED "ETERNAL LIFE" because there was NO water for baptism" WHO said GOD did? I SAID repeatedly that when NO ABILITIY AT ALL exists to OBEY a COMMAND (such as repentance, confession, or baptism) THEN THAT COMMAND is rendered "non-essential" IN THAT CASE. You can't CONFESS Christ before men if you are ALONE, can you? You can't be baptized if there is NO WATER, can you?
I SAID repeatedly that when NO ABILITIY AT ALL exists: YES YOU HAVE said that repeatedly, BUT where did you get the scripture for that? Show me in CLEAR, verses anywhere that says that GOD will allow ANYONE who is able bodied a free ticket to Heaven without "BELIEVING THE GOSPEL AND REPENTING OF their SINS? Then show me VSs that say if they can't be H2o bap.tized, they get a free ride? What you are saying is according to YOUR DOCTRINE of H2o baptism they had NO ABILITY AT ALL.
@lllannallll I SAID repeatedly that when NO ABILITIY AT ALL exists to OBEY a COMMAND (such as repentance, confession, or baptism) THEN THAT COMMAND is rendered "non-essential" IN THAT CASE.
YES YOU HAVE said that repeatedly, BUT where did you get the scripture for that? show me VSs that say if they can't be H2o bap.tized, they get a free ride? What you are saying is according to YOUR DOCTRINE of H2o baptism they had NO ABILITY AT ALL.
@ydnar0591 "show me VSs that say if they can't be H2o bap.tized, they get a free ride?" Well, oddly enough, there is NO INSTANCE of a person who desired to be baptized BEING UNABLE TO DO SO. Out of tens of thousands of converts, NOT A ONE fits your ICU ward, foxhole, doomed jetliner, or anything else. And it's still about that way, I suppose. So why depend upon such a thing? You can't prove a doctrine by such a uncertain exception.
@ydnar0591 Trouble is this: like others, you seek to DISPROVE the necessity of baptism by MAKING UP examples of people who were plugging right along, but SIMPLY COULD NOT DO SO. Then you think it's just awful to condemn them to hell for NOT DOING SOMETHING that they COULDN'T DO! But when I SAY that 'where NO ABILITY EXISTS, then the person must be EXEMPTED from the command, you demand PROOF. Why would you care?
@lllannallll It quite simply proves, IFyou have NO scripture for the exemption you talk of, then NO exemption exsists, becuse H2o baptism was NEVER a part of Saving Faith to begin with.
It's hard enough to keep people from being decieved by errors in Calvinism, and Aminianism issues, without having to deal with people who want to pile on Non-essential doctrine like H2o,& tongues {UPCI} to the Faith & Repenteance requireed to recieve the Grace of God which SAVES men's souls.
@ydnar0591 "It's hard enough to keep people from being decieved by errors" I just BET it's tough to convince non-Calvinists and non-Arminians that "faith" and "repentance" cannot exist separately - and we all know such a reasoning is solely due to being HARD-PRESSED - and yet totally deny the necessity of baptism when the Bible plain says baptism is unto the remission of sins, doth also now save us, is the putting on of Christ, etc. That WOULD be a toughie.
@ydnar0591 "It quite simply proves, IFyou have NO scripture for the exemption you talk of, then NO exemption exsists" LOL No, it doesn't. I never claimed to KNOW that a person who DESIRES to be baptized, but CANNOT, is still saved; however, such IS my belief. One reason for never finding such an example is: out of tens of thousands of saved people on/after Pentecost, NOT ONE PERSON fits your extenuating circumstances.
@ydnar0591 I DO, however, have an example of 3,000 or so BELIEVERS who were PRICKED in their hearts, yet were COMMANDED to .. what? REPENT and BE BAPTIZED. Why? Because at that point, these believers had done NEITHER. Yet YOU quote the 23rd chapter of your imagination, fly in the face of this example, and ASSERT that "repentance and faith are inseparably connected." Well, they WERE NOT in that case, were they?
@ydnar0591 "I said real believers KNOW that Faith Repentance are 2 sides of the same coin and they are.
Got verses YET?" Nope, and there won't BE any verses for that ASSERTION, either. There are PLENTY of narratives of BELIEVERS being COMMANDED to REPENT; hence, we know for sure that the two are SEPARATE. But as far as finding anything remotely implying that "faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin"? No.
I did;nt say YOU believed it. I said WE believe it in traditional Biblical Chrisianity. Yes and when those commands are given we know that they are Faith/Believing Repentance. WE knoiw it...NOT YOU !!! Faith and repentance should happen at just about the same time, Belief comes first, otherwise you won't know how to repent. Many people are sorry for things they've done, and even tell God. Are they saved by that alone?or do they need faith in Jesus first? Just being sorry means O
@ydnar0591 "I did;nt say YOU believed it. I said WE believe it in traditional Biblical Chrisianity." No, you don't. You believe in a semi-Calvinistic, semi-Lutheran theology which became extremist in response to 16th century Roman Catholic doctrines of salvation by works of human merit, the VERY types of works of which men might BOAST. Your beliefs on the efficacy of baptism, however, are AT ODDS with the "traditional Christianity" of the first, second, and third centuries.
@ydnar0591 "I'll tell you what I believe. I believe you have a different Gospel." I certainly DO have a "different so-called gospel" than what you teach. Look at you: you believe in salvation by "grace alone". That's fine - but you can't be ADDING THINGS to something THAT IS ALONE. You believe in salvation by "grace alone", then what? You TACK ON faith and repentance. So there's THREE THINGS ALREADY - with more to come, I suppose.
@ydnar0591 "Repent and be baptized every one of you unto the remission of sins ... " Acts 2: 38 (ASV, 1901). Is it your position that (1) the 101 translators of the ASV were ALL WRONG and simply MISTRANSLATED the word "eis"? or (2) that "unto" is a correct translation, and "unto" means "BECAUSE OF"? Answer those two questions, and I surmise that anyone should see the folly of trying to force a "because of" meaning.
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the "SIMPLICITY" that is in Christ.
I'm STILL WAITING for your answer to the problem of the young men on the many battle fields who wanted saved but ha dnot a drop of water, but are somehow exempted from the 3 rd part of salvation ....H2o. I know YOU BEIEVE that....SO...you have scripture for everything else...at least you think you do.
@ydnar0591 "I'm STILL WAITING for your answer to the problem of the young men on the many battle fields" In the first place, your "situation" isn't much of a "problem" - it's only so because you try to MAKE it a problem. It is doubtful that ANY young men on a battlefield NEVER had an opportunity to be baptized, but assuming such MIGHT be the one in a million case - what of it? I told you what I believe, and I do not base my belief on an extreme RARITY, bordering on an IMPOSSIBLITY. Do you?
I hardly think it's a rarity. I would say it happened quite frequently during all those wars, and with men on both sides.
It's easy to say they should have benn baptized earlier. We all should do a lot of things, but we did'nt.
Many times it takes a life and death situation for men to get saved. The thief on the cross is a common situation. Not the cross part, but the getting saved in the last hours or even minutes of peoples lives. I have preached the Gospel to several .....
@ydnar0591 "It's easy to say they should have benn baptized earlier." Indeed it is, and GOD is the JUDGE of such a person - not you or me. The difference is that YOU run around telling normal, healthy people that they don't HAVE TO BE baptized - and try to pawn off a definition of "eis" (for, unto) as "because of." But "unto" in the ASV MEANS "for", and "for" means "unto," and "eis" means "unto", and "unto" does not mean "because of". THAT is the difference between you and Peter.
@ydnar0591 "The thief on the cross is a common situation." LOL The "thief on the cross" is an IMPOSSIBLE SITUATION today, and such has BEEN IMPOSSIBLE ever since Jesus Christ DIED. That thief LIVED and DIED prior to the Great Commission and PRIOR TO the Holy Spirit directing Peter to speak Acts 2: 38.
...people on their death beds. Death beds conversions are quite common. They can be in a bed on on a battle field. Hardily rarities as you would try to make someone believe.
In fact I would say that MOST people need some kind of tragedy in their lives to bring them to Christ. The Bible speaks of this. So don't try that. Just say what you said , you don't have any biblical back up for your assertion of non -compliance to H20 baptism exemptions. There are none.
@ydnar0591 "Death beds conversions are quite common." Really? I do not personally KNOW of any, but nonetheless, I'd like to HEAR of ONE DEATHBED CONVERSION in the entire Christian dispensation. Since you hedge your doctrine on deathbed conversions, surely out of tens of thousands of conversions to Christianity since it began on Pentecost, you can point out ONE.
@ydnar0591 "This simply means at the end of life . The thief is a perfect example." I bet the thief isn't a "perfect example" of CHRISTIAN CONVERSION under the terms of the GREAT COMMISSION. You look to a DYING JEW for your example of CHRISTIAN DEATHBED CONVERSIONS. That thief was SAVED under the TERMS of the Old Covenant, and is a POOR CHOICE for a supposed example of Christian conversion.
@ydnar0591 "Just say what you said , you don't have any biblical back up for your assertion of non -compliance to H20 baptism exemptions. There are none." Yes, I said that is my personal belief: that a person who WOULD obey the gospel by being baptized but CANNOT is still saved. However, I can find NO EXAMPLE of such an occurance, and have no argument with one who says, "No, they are NOT saved." HOWEVER, such is not YOUR POSITION, is it?
@ydnar0591 "So don't try that. Just say what you said , you don't have any biblical back up for your assertion of non -compliance to H20 baptism exemptions." I never said there WERE, and in fact, it is MUCH EASIER and MORE DEFENSIBLE just to say that those who passed up opportunities to be baptized and reached the end of life's way - having neglected this command for YEARS - are LOST. That's EASIER, MORE LOGICAL, and VERY DEFENSIBLE. It simply happens not to be my personal belief.
@ydnar0591 "" When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit .. " (#1) Repent ye and (#2) be baptized every one of you (#3) unto the remission of sins, and (#4) ye SHALL RECEIVE the gift of the Spirit. Not only do you negate baptism with your assertion, you have BELIEVERS receiving the Spirit BEFORE REPENTANCE. You said repentance follows BELIEF: a person BELIEVES and then REPENTS, say, eight hours later. YOU have him receiving the Spirit EIGHT HOURS TOO SOON.
@ydnar0591 ""For " in Acts 2:38 means "Because of Faith" be baptized." Well, I have NEVER heard anyone take a position as you do: that "unto" in Acts 2: 38 means "because of". Pray tell, what DICTIONARY do you use to determine that "unto" means "because of" or anything resembling it? I'd like to see that dictionary! Truth is: all you're doing is making a play on the KJV "for", but when presented with equally accurate ASV "unto", you haven't got a word to say, do you?
Well it has to mean something since in the entire context of scripture , it does not mean we are saved by our h2o baptism. So whatever it means it can't mean that.
@ydnar0591 "Well it has to mean something since in the entire context of scripture , it does not mean we are saved by our h2o baptism." You mean to tell me that you decided "for" or "unto" in Acts 2: 38 simply CAN'T mean "unto" (which Webster defines as "in view of an unreached end) simply because you have already decided that baptism is non-essential to salvation, so you must try to place an awkward meaning on the verse?
@ydnar0591 "I told you that I don't believe God would make it impossible for some to be SAVED .....JUST because they had NO H2o." #1 ... I never affirmed that a person who CANNOT POSSIBLY be baptized (or CANNOT POSSIBLY confess faith in Christ with the mouth) is ETERNALLY LOST due to INABILITY. That is my belief. #2 ... I wouldn't FORMULATE an ENTIRE THEOLOGY over a one in ten thousand EXCEPTION, because, for one thing, I MIGHT BE WRONG about that.
@ydnar0591 "Well it has to mean something since in the entire context of scripture , it does not mean we are saved by our h2o baptism." The "entire context" would mean John 3: 5, Mark 16: 16, Matthew 28: 19, Acts 2: 38, Rom 6: 4, Eph 4: 4-6, Gal 3: 27, I Pet 3: 21, Acts 22: 16, Acts 8, and others. THOSE verses explain the purpose of baptism - and if you'd like to know about baptism, you'll have to look at PASSAGES that deal with baptism.
@ydnar0591 In other words, if you'd like to know about REPENTANCE - what it is, who is to do it, the purpose of it, you can't look to verses about BAPTISM. You are looking to verses about "faith", then deciding that they refer to a faith before and without baptism, then try to force a meaning on "baptism verses" that spin them into agreement with a pre-determined theology. You know that won't work. I think that's being NICE, and besides, it's the TRUTH - whether nice or not.
@ydnar0591 "Faith and repentance should happen at just about the same time" They might - then again - they MIGHT NOT! THAT is why the two are DISTINCT ACTS: separate by definition and separate logically. I repeat: those querists in Acts 2: 37 were BELIEVERS. They asked, "...what shall WE DO?" They weren't told to believe - they ALREADY BELIEVED. Yet they had not REPENTED. And most Baptists, by the way, stick REPENTANCE before FAITH - again, very illogical.
That's the way it happened for me. When I heard the Gospel and believed , and I knew why I needed to repent. How can you repent effectively if you've never heard the Gospel, and if you don't believe it , you WON'T repent either. Well you might if you were beliveing another Gospel. There are about a million Gospels on the Internet alone. LOL
btw: I'm not a Baptist either, and I'm certainly not a Lutheran. Most thinking people are only partialy in agreement with Calvin, also.
@ydnar0591 "Most thinking people are only partialy in agreement with Calvin, also." I'm not so sure about that. 'Tis very hard to be a "less-than-five-point" Calvinist. One pretty much MUST start with "total depravity", then logically I guess one COULD wind up at "final perseverance of the saints." Problem is: "total hereditary depravity" is rotten to the core and is the tap root of all the other silly dogmas that sprout from it.
@ydnar0591 "How can you repent effectively if you've never heard the Gospel, and if you don't believe it , you WON'T repent either." That's all TRUE; however, it is the polar OPPOSITE of what Baptists believe, so according to you, the Baptists have the ORDER ALL WRONG. I think they do also, but I'd be more inclined to SAY it.
@ydnar0591 "by Grace alone, through Faith alone , IN CHRIST alone +NOTHING." You oughta THINK about that! You believe in GRACE or GRACE ALONE? There's the difference between truth and error. You believe in FAITH or FAITH ONLY/FAITH ALONE? If it's GRACE ALONE, then, bless your soul, WHY get trapped in a corner by ADDING FAITH to it. Then when you add FAITH, you'll also, by implication, try to add REPENTANCE. And I suppose you'd add LOVING GOD. You're adding ALOT to an ALONE, aren't you?
Let's face it , you would'nt believe I or anyone else was saved if we are simply baptised in water , {which I am} unless they belong to your religion. Jimmy Allen said that already.
You not only have to be H2o baptized but you must do it in our water , by our people! You are'nt fooling anyone.
@ydnar0591 I can flip the coin: suppose a person BELIEVES and TRUSTS in Jesus Christ, but kicks the bucket BEFORE he can REPENT, CONFESS HIS FAITH, OR BE BAPTIZED. We'll suppose he simply died an in INPENITENT. Saved without repentance? Saved without EVER confessing Christ? See how SILLY your extreme examples are? And I believe that EVERY ADULT who believes in Christ and repents of his sins MUST BE BAPTIZED as soon as the opportunity presents itself.
That;'s why FAITH & Rep.are invisible actions of the HEART, IF he BELIEVES and GOD sees, he IS saved. 1Sam16:7 "God sees the haert"{unlike men.}
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. Eph1:13-14
@lllannallll 3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the SIMPLICITY that is in Christ.
4For if he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER JESUS, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another SPIRIT, which ye have not received, or another GOSPEL, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Thank God, most folks I've talked to don't swallow the H2o addition anyway.
@ydnar0591 "Thank God, most folks I've talked to don't swallow the H2o addition anyway." Well, I don't know that I'd especially "thank God" for anyone who reads Mark 16: 16, Acts 2: 38, Gal 3: 27, or I Pet 3: 21 then argues to high heaven that, despite the plain words of Jesus, Peter, and Paul, baptism is merely a "public profession of prior salvation." Perhaps, "most people you've talked to" have been sorely misled by zealous sectarian pseudo-theologians.
@ydnar0591 "NO, I'm sorry, I can't believe that." I'm not asking you to. I think that you feel you have some defense in these emotional "deathbed" situations - even though I've repeatedly denied that a command is ESSENTIAL in a case where NO ABILITY to obey EXISTS. Still, you PERSIST: you've taken us through WARS and HOSPITAL ROOMS. Apparently YOU believe that were a COMMAND exists, yet a person CANNOT OBEY IT, that PERSON is LOST. You MUST believe that .
In Hebrews 11 The entire chapter says by faith...then it states what they did it is not invisible at all.
bwilliams13able 5 days ago
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the Remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Bobsblues 3 weeks ago
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GOD said in the ten commandments,"Thou shall have no other gods before me".
If people think water will save them, that the same as putting a physical god(water) before GOD!
Think about it.
JESUS DID IT ALL ON THE CROSS !! (IT IS FINISHED)
All we have to do is call on the name of Jesus Christ to be SAVED !!
IF you turn to Jesus Christ, you turn away from the ways of Satan !!
USAFreedomReform 1 month ago
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USAFreedomReform 1 month ago
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USAFreedomReform 2 months ago
Why was Jesus baptized? He was sinless.
caneishaprince 3 months ago
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@caneishaprince You Asked --->Why was Jesus baptized? He was sinless.
It was not about Jesus being baptised by John in the river Jordan, for Jesus to be Saved. Jesus was without sin and did not need to be saved because he was the SAVER.
Jesus was Baptised was so that he could receive the Holy Ghost and in turn fulfill what John said that "one greater would come that would baptize with the Holy Ghost and Fire".Jesus now and then baptizes with the Holy Ghost and not WATER.
USAFreedomReform 1 week ago
If baptism is not an act of faith then why did Paul, get baptized?
caneishaprince 3 months ago
Abraham was not a christian. You should the whole passage
caneishaprince 3 months ago
Abraham was given the Gospel of Jesus Christ {Gal 3:8}, ....and Abraham "Believed God" ...so if "water baptism" is part of salvation, then why did not Abraham get water baptized simply on the basis of prophecy alone. I mean if it carries ALL the GREAT WEIGHT of importance that you C-of-Cers PUT on it, then Abraham would have WANTED to be H2o baptized, out of FAITH alone....having always BELIEVED GOD. He would have known, or did Abraham ALSO KNOW H2o Baptism was only symbolic, as we do.
ydnar0591 3 months ago
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@ydnar0591 "He would have known, or did Abraham ALSO KNOW H2o Baptism was only symbolic, as we do"
++++++++++++
USAFreedomReform 1 week ago
" Baptism, however, is not our work, but God's (for, as was stated, you must put Christ-baptism far away from a bath-keeper's baptism). God's works, however, are saving and necessary for salvation, and do not exclude, but demand, faith; for without faith they could not be apprehended. ... continued
Bobsblues 7 months ago
"cont. ...Thus you see plainly that THERE IS NO WORK DONE BY US , but a treasure which He GIVES US, and which faith apprehends; just as the Lord Jesus Christ upon the cross is not a work, but a treasure comprehended in the Word, and offered to us and RECIEVED BY FAITH. Therefore they do us violence by exclaiming against us as though we preach against faith; while we alone insist upon it as being of such necessity that without it nothing can be received nor enjoyed.
{Martin Luther }
Bobsblues 7 months ago
"Faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law; faith it is that brings the Holy Spirit through the merits of Christ. The Spirit, in turn, renders the heart glad and free, as the law demands. Then good works proceed from faith itself. That is what Paul means in chapter 3 when, after he has thrown out the works of the law, he sounds as though the wants to abolish the law by faith. No, he says, we uphold the law...."--Martin Luther, "Preface to the Letter of St. Paul to the Romans"
Calvinist007 7 months ago
" But if they say, as they are accustomed: Still Baptism is itself a work, and you say works are of no avail for salvation; what then, becomes of faith? Answer: Yes, our works, indeed, avail nothing for salvation; BAPTISM HOWEVER, IS NOT OUR WORK BUT GOD'S, (for, as was stated, you must put Christ-baptism far away from a bath-keeper's baptism). God's works, however, are saving and necessary for salvation, and do not exclude, but demand, faith; "
{ Martin Luther }
Bobsblues 7 months ago
@Ydnar0591 - Dont give me that baloney about all the people who wont be saved because of lack of water in your rare battlefield situations. God is fair and just and will deal with them as He sees fit, But for the rest of us , we are commanded to obey this and teaching others to willfully reject this is rebellion against God.
Bobsblues 7 months ago
@ Ydnar0591- Im still waiting for a reply to my question concerning Simon the Sorceror. Your question neither answers nor invalidates the truth of those circumstances. You hold the opinion that the Seal of The Holy Spirit comes from belief alone, then why was this believer trying to purchase the Holy Spirit from Peter ?
Just his attempt at doing so proves he obviously DID NOT have the Holy Spirit, because no Spirit filled person would have done this. And HOW was the Holy Spirit being given ?
Bobsblues 7 months ago
@Bobsblues
BTW: YOUR Replys are not going to my E-mail In-box, I just happened on to your reply by chance, here.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591- My answer to your question concerning Ephesians 1:13-14 , Yes of course being Sealed with the Holy Spirit comes only after belief and requires belief. This scripture not only tells us that they were sealed after belief, but it also includes the neccesity of HEARING the WORD of TRUTH , THE GOSPEL, the very thing that you reject was neccessary . But even further , this scripture tells us that they heard the Gospel and TRUSTED . And what does the Gospel command ? - BE BAPTIZED.
Bobsblues 7 months ago
@Bobsblues
Then in YOUR religion there will be a lot of people who can't be saved , if there are in a situation where water is not available when they want to be saved. God would not make Salvation so diffacult.
Like I have already said , I'm sure there have been many young men die on the battle field who heard the Gospel and wanted to believe and trust God for salvation but HAD NO WATER. 2 world wars and a ton of other wars, and men on both sides. Frozen areas and deserrts,crashing planes.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "Then in YOUR religion there will be a lot of people who can't be saved , if there are in a situation where water is not available when they want to be saved." Pardon me, but it seems that not only do you tell us what YOU believe, you ALSO tell ME (and Bobsblues) what WE must believe." No wonder you take such offense at "where no ability to obey exists, God's grace is sufficient." At the time, I didn't realize that such a charitable statement of belief was a FRONTAL ATTACK on you.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
Exactly how many ways to you have of being saved OR Not saved?
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "Exactly how many ways to you have of being saved OR Not saved?" ONE PLAN, ONE WAY of salvation since Adam sinned: TRUST in GOD, REPENTANCE from sin, OBEDIENCE to whatever God commanded. That will work from Adam on down to 2011.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
Trust & Repentance + OBEDIENCE to COMMANDS? .......I see. Well that's an answer. Thank you.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 You're welcome: it beats "do nothing", doesn't it?
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
Not really !
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 I'd much rather say a man has to BELIEVE or TRUST in God and REPENT of his sins than says, "There's NOTHING you can do - NOTHING."
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
That depends on the word "do". Believe yes, works yes BUT ...only by faith..... but the works of faith do not SAVE. Your works should be "want to" NOT ...."have to"...God will not accept "have to" for salvation.
The Pharisee {sinner} Beginning at LUKE 18:9 was bragging on all his giving, fasting, praying etc.
The publican {sinner} simply ask God for MERCY, and Jesus said THIS MAN went down to his house JUSTIFIED rather than the other. LUKE 18:9-14. I will stand on FAITH.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "God will not accept "have to" for salvation." Sure He will. "Unless ye believe that I am He, ye shall die in your sins." "Without faith, it is impossible to please God." "Unless ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." "Unless a man is born of water and of the Spirit, he shall not enter ... " Those are all conditional phrases - "have to's". If you HAVE TO "DO" something, and you DO that particular something, and you DID it, and no one else DID it for you, then you WORKED.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
You totally MISSED the point. I was not talking about FAITH & Repentance. I meant "have to" DO the LAW or COMMANDS for salvation. That he won;'t accept. Faith is about the "WILL" not "WORKS".
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 I don't think I missed the point: the bottom line is that you draw some sort of false distinction between "mental" work and any other work, and, once that pseudodistinction is drawn, you'll affirm that the mental work is NECESSARY to salvation, but any other work is NOT. Now I think that's it in a nutshell.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8-9
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 “I am going to maintain that there is no act at all that any man in the Old Testament time or the New ever had to perform in order to be saved. Salvation is received by faith, and faith is the only thing you can do without doing anything.” Ben Bogard, 1938, in discussion with N. B. Hardeman. Do you note the logical contradiction there?" I had asked if YOU notice any contradiction in Mr. Bogard's statement? I do, and most others would, I think, but I'm not so sure YOU do.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
I don't care what YOU are sure of about ME.
I believe that I am saved by Grace through Faith and this NOT of myself, it is the Gift of God not of my works, lest I or any other should boast.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "I don't care what YOU are sure of about ME." I don't think ANYTHING about you personally - you're probably a nice person. Your RELIGIOUS THEOLOGY is contradictory and illogical, but that means nothing about you, personally. There are some "nice" people among the Hindus and Moslems. The fact that you can BELIEVE (and not boast), then REPENT (and not boast), but if you have to be BAPTIZED you "boast" about it, IS a little silly, but is not a PERSONAL thing.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
I sincerely beieve that God does not want us to be a bunch of do or die Christians and FEAR him for the wrong reasons. Reverence is the kind of fear we should have.
I have been baptized, beacuse I wanted to do what the Lord said. That's the reason I was baptized and that is obedient. That's why we try to do everything he commanded, BUT if we were saved by keeping the commandments then we must keep them all .....Galations 5:3-4
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "That's why we try to do everything he commanded, BUT if we were saved by keeping the commandments then we must keep them all" You know I can FLIP that on you: it is a FACT that we are commanded to REPENT, isn't it? And you teach that one MUST KEEP that commandment, don't you? So by your own reasoning (which is contradictory, by the way), since you teach we MUST repent (a command) "then we must keep them all". That would include baptism, by your own deductions.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
Faith and repentance do not require physical action. These are spiritual actions only and men do not have to raise a hand to do beleieve.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "Faith and repentance do not require physical action." So? I certainly consent that one may do a mental or spiritual WORK without "lifting a finger". But bear in mind, the person STILL DID IT. If you DID it, whether physical, mental, or sitting on a stump in-between, it's STILL a work. To be anywhere in the ballpark, you have to claim that "works" only means "physical works", and somehow EXCLUDES "mental works". I've never met anyone willing to take that on.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
God looks on the heart according to 1Samuel 16:7 when he picked David to be King of Israel.
Faith is an invisible action in the heart.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "Faith is an invisible action in the heart." So? It's an action YOU took, wasn't it? Either YOU did it, or it was done FOR you (in which case you were passive).
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
This is getting borinly redundant.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "This is getting borinly redundant." Probably because you know that faith (belief) and repentance are active mental works. Being baptized is a passive physical work. And the difference in "working" among faith, repentance, and baptism is the difference between tweddle-dee and tweedle-dum. It's an imaginary "difference."
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
There are MANY COMMANDS.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
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@ydnar0591 "There are MANY COMMANDS." So?
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll repentance=remission of sins,,not baptism..got it get it good!!
uwique 3 weeks ago
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@uwique "repentance=remission of sins,,not baptism..got it get it good!!" Umm... you having a half-price sale on remission? "Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you ... unto the remission of sins." "Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins." Yeah, I think I got it good.
lllannallll 3 weeks ago
@lllannallll
God looks on the heart according to 1Samuel 16:7 when he picked David to be King of Israel.
Faith is an invisible action in the heart.
The definition of faith is "things unseen" in Hebrews 11.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
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@ydnar0591 "The definition of faith is "things unseen" in Hebrews 11." LOL No, it's not - faith is the EVIDENCE of things not seen. It's not a "leap-in-the-dark" at all. Faith is based upon logical, rational reasoning concerning the EVIDENCES which are presented both in the Bible and out of it.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "I will stand on FAITH." I hope you do, but please don't try to "stand" on "faith only" - a dead, inactive, "of no force" faith such as James described. What avails? "Faith WORKING through love." The word "faith" is often used as a synechdoche for the entirety of man's response towards God, so as long as you are standing on the all-encompassing "faith once delivered", you'll be fine. When a man tries to stand on faith without repentance, for instance, he is on shaky ground.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 You can't get it into your head that when (1) one HEARS, (2) one LISTENS, (3) one CONTEMPLATES, (4) one STUDIES, (5) one WEIGHS the evidence, (6) one DECIDES in favor of Jesus, and one (7) repents of his sins ---- he has DONE something ... and DOING SOMETHING is a work, whether mental or physical. That's another logical inconsistency - just like "faith" and "repentance" being inseparable, when you know they ARE.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "“I am going to maintain that there is no act at all that any man in the Old Testament time or the New ever had to perform in order to be saved. Salvation is received by faith, and faith is the only thing you can do without doing anything.” Ben Bogard, 1938, in discussion with N. B. Hardeman. Do you note the logical contradiction there? Sounds DIFFERENT when someone else said it, but that's YOUR position exactly, and Bogard tried to affirm your position on baptism when he said that.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
To the contrary I take NO offense at anything or anyone. I only try to help . Even God does'nt MAKE or FORCE anyone to be Saved, or lost. I believe God's Grace is sufficient "ALL THE TIME". God's Grace trumps everything. This does not mean that verses are not correct they are. It just means that God's Grace is greater.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: Many verses are trumped by Grace.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ Ydnar0591 - If you hold the opinion that a person is sealed and recieves the Holy Spirit at the point they believe, then how do you explain the fact of Simon the Sorceror , offered to purchase this from the Apostle Peter ? The scriptures state that he was a BELIEVER so then why didnt he have the Holy Spirit ?
Bobsblues 7 months ago
@Bobsblues
What do YOU get from Eph 1:13-14? I can't wait to hear this!
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ ydnar 0591 - you said - " When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,"
BOLONEY - Read the TRUTH
Acts 19
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye BELIEVED ? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Bobsblues 7 months ago
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Bobsblues 7 months ago
" In order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may OBTAIN IN THE WATER THE REMISSION OF SINS FORMERLY COMMITED , there is pronounced over him who chooses to be Born Again, And Has Repented Of His Sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the Laver the person that is to be Washed calling him by this name alone. - continued
Bobsblues 7 months ago
cont. - For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness. And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed. "
{ Justin Martyr }
Bobsblues 7 months ago
@ ydnar0591 - So in other words you're trying to sell us that repentance is also just an outward sign of an inward grace. WRONG - its Repent and Be Baptized FOR FOR FOR ,[ As in To Obtain ] Remisssion of Sins, Not because Of. How Long will you be in denial of the wording of that passage ? Just cant make your phony baloney belief system line up without rewritting passages .
Bobsblues 7 months ago
@ lllannallll - @Bobsblues Absolutely every ... EVERY ... writer of the early church taught that baptism is "for" - "unto" - the remission of sins, and NOT ONE ever had the temerity to say "eis" means "because of" in Acts 2: 38. Not only that, but NO Greek lexicon gives "because of" as the meaning, and even Thayer (an Episcopalian) said "to obtain the forgiveness".
How in the world can they believe that All the early church writers could'nt read Greek properly ? Total reality denial !
Bobsblues 7 months ago
The "simplicity " really IS quite simple isnt it ? Peter told it to us, 'Repent and be Baptized FOR the Remission of sins . No baptism = no forgiveness of sins. Its just That simple. But you writhe and twist and turn like the Pharisees of old in order to make this of No Effect.
Bobsblues 7 months ago
@Bobsblues
They already BELIEVED unto SALVATION just like Cornelius and his friends in Acts 10:43-47, now Peter is telling them to openly REPENT and then be baptized to demonstrate their FAITH in what they BEILIEVED ...in Acts 2:38.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ ydnar0591 - What occured in the case of the Cornellius group in Acts 10 was a special event to show Peter that the Gentiles were also to be included in the New Covenent. Had God not brought the Holy Spirit onto these people as proof , Peter would never have believed that these people were to be accepted. Is this an example of how it will happen to for others ? NO WAY ! ,we are shown the proof of this as Paul had to re-baptize people and lay hands on them in order to recieve the Holy Spirit.
Bobsblues 7 months ago
@ ydnar0591 - The FOR in -repent and be baptized FOR the remission of sins, is to obtain remission of sins , not because they have already been remitted. The modern perverters of scripture try rather hard to bend that passage backwards , but ive not seen even one of the early church writers who interpret the greek eis as ' because of ', they ALL render it as ' to obtain '. Are we to believe that the whole of the early church world couldnt read Greek properly that was contemporary to their time?
Bobsblues 7 months ago
@Bobsblues Absolutely every ... EVERY ... writer of the early church taught that baptism is "for" - "unto" - the remission of sins, and NOT ONE ever had the temerity to say "eis" means "because of" in Acts 2: 38. Not only that, but NO Greek lexicon gives "because of" as the meaning, and even Thayer (an Episcopalian) said "to obtain the forgiveness". And NO reputable translation gives a "because of" meaning, either. So the early writers, lexicographers, and translations are ALL WRONG? LOL
lllannallll 7 months ago
@Bobsblues
Verse 43 of Acts 10 says that whoever Believes in HIM recieves remission of sins. Then the Holy Ghost falls on then in Vs 44, when they HEARD the WORD. They were not H2o baptized until verse 47, AFTER the manifestations of the spirit were alrady evident.
Therfore the word FOR in Acts 2:38 has to mean "Because of" remission of sins.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
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@ydnar0591 "Therfore the word FOR in Acts 2:38 has to mean "Because of" remission of sins." Ummm .... that's not quite the way you should go about determining the MEANING of "eis". Tell you what: the ASV (1901) is STILL the standard text for quite a few colleges and was translated by 101 of America's best scholars. The verse reads, "Repent ... be baptized ... UNTO the remission of sins." Why don't you try twisting UNTO into "because of"?
lllannallll 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "Verse 43 of Acts 10 says that whoever Believes in HIM recieves remission of sins. Then the Holy Ghost falls on then in Vs 44, when they HEARD the WORD." The EVENTS of Acts 10 are FACTUAL and INERRANT, but not necessarily IN ORDER. You are quoting step-by-step AS IF they are in chronological order. Acts 11 IS in order, and so states this fact. The baptism of the Spirit occurred JUST AS PETER BEGAN TO SPEAK - and was not for the purpose of demonstrating salvation.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
Oh really? Is that also what happened in ACTS 2:38? You are trying to make God's word conform to you , instead of conforming to the Word.
You can be saced by water baptism in your version of the Gospel, if that's what you want. No one is trying to stop you from doing what you want. God gives us all a free will.
Go for it.
Why worry about it ? Don't fret over things you believe if you really believe them , just believe them and get on with life..
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "ACTS 2:38? You are trying to make God's word conform to you , instead of conforming to the Word." Nope, it appears in Acts 2: 38 than a gospel message was preached, people BELIEVED IT, they were pricked in their hearts, and cried out "Men and brethren, what shall we DO?" The answer is as follows: (1) Repent - well, WHY? Because they HAD NOT DONE SO, apparently, (2) be baptized - well, WHY? (3) "unto the remission of sins." Then what? (4) Receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
Yes when you Believe and Repent!
ydnar0591 7 months ago
" And when we come to refute them, we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith. For the Baptism instituted by the visible Jesus was for the remission of sins "
[ Ireneaus ]
Bobsblues 8 months ago
@ ydnar0591 - Its not God you have to thank for those who have been taught to reject baptism. As for those who follow " Another Jesus ", the Real Jesus commanded baptism and had disciples traveling with him who did exactly that, and who continued to do and command others to do the same .
Bobsblues 8 months ago
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ydnar0591 8 months ago
|||anna||||, I've seen many of your posts and it brings me great joy to see someone as strong in the word as you are. Cheers.
As for hypothetical questions, I don't know that it really gets anyone anywhere. We can ask "what if..." to anything, for instance, what if someone lives their lives mostly faithfully and loves God but sins right before they die? Are they condemned? What good does it do to ask that?
What we have is the Word of God, what we know is the Word of God, let's stick to it.
Concatenate 8 months ago
How would YOU pull off this 3 rd part of salvation if you were lost, had heard the Gospel and had not yet made up your mind. Then you get on a 747 Jet and after about an hour the plane starts to go down. Death is a certainty, what would you do?
This time answer the question instead picking out the easy part and ignoring the stuff you have no answer for. You've only done that abou a couple dozen times. Did you think I did'nt notice that you pruposely avoid parts of the comments.
ydnar0591 8 months ago
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There you go putting water in VSs again, that is'nt there.Jesus bap. with HS
2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied. 4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
St. Paul..ACTS 19:2-4
ydnar0591 8 months ago
lllannallll Actually there was not Campbellite Church of Christ until 1820's. Alexander Campbell had to be baptized by a baptist preacher in 1812. The CofC did not have the doctrine of salvation by water baptism back then.
ydnar0591 8 months ago
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@ydnar0591 "Actually there was not Campbellite Church of Christ until 1820's." There still isn't. One thing's for sure: there was the CHURCH back then in AD33 - the church, the church of Christ, the church of God. I can call the church "the church by Christ Jesus", "the church of Christ", "the church of God", etc without OFFENDING ANYONE. However, when I step OUTSIDE THE BIBLE and start INSULTING the church by NAMING some SECT after BAPTISM, I'm on shaky ground.
lllannallll 8 months ago
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ydnar0591 8 months ago
@ydnar0591 "Yes Jimmy Allen tried to say that Jesus had not died yet, the Bible makes it clear that the Blood of Jesus Christ Cleaneth us of ALL sins." Jesus was ALIVE when the THIEF was SAVED, and YOU are in the position of saying YOU want to BE SAVED under the SAME TERMS as a Jewish thief who LIVED and WAS SAVED under the JEWISH LAW. The Great Commission had NOT EVEN BEEN GIVEN at that point; there was NO HOLY SPIRIT given; the Lord's church did NOT EXIST - yet you cling to your thief!
lllannallll 8 months ago
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@ydnar0591 "Yes Jimmy Allen tried to say that Jesus had not died yet, the Bible makes it clear that the Blood of Jesus Christ Cleaneth us of ALL sins." Jesus was ALIVE when the THIEF was SAVED, and YOU are in the position of saying YOU want to BE SAVED under the SAME TERMS as a Jewish thief who LIVED and WAS SAVED under the JEWISH LAW. The Great Commission had NOT EVEN BEEN GIVEN at that point; there was NO HOLY SPIRIT given; the Lord's church did NOT EXIST - yet you cling to your thief!
lllannallll 8 months ago
@ydnar0591 Well, for all I know, YOU might be a THIEF, and you might be SAVED - but if so, I'll guarantee you weren't SAVED like the thief on the cross. I'm quite sure he was never baptized with the baptism of the Commission because IT HAD NOT BEEN GIVEN. He was never "added to the church" - there WAS NO CHURCH of CHRIST until Pentecost. If he ever had the Holy Spirit, scripture fails to record it. I think it's dangerous to look to our favorite thief as a good example of NT conversion.
lllannallll 8 months ago
@lllannallll
This is not my first encounter with this doctrine. I have looked at the totallity of scrpitures that deal with this subject and I wanted for years to know the truth NO MATTER WHAT TRUTH IS. I would be a fool not to. I would NOT allow stupid PRIDE to keep me from Salvation. Therfore I connot believe this doctrine in the total context of Scripture.
Faith & Repentance are with the mouth, confessing Christ, Romans 10:9... but H2o Baptism, is "physical works" of MAN, to boast of.
ydnar0591 8 months ago
@ydnar0591 "Faith & Repentance are with the mouth, confessing Christ, Romans 10:9... but H2o Baptism, is "physical works" of MAN, to boast of." LOL you can't "boast" of baptism: what's there to "boast" about? Confession WITH THE MOUTH is definately a "work": you DID it, didn't you? God sure didn't DO it - YOU DID. You HEARD the word, you PONDERED it, you STUDIED it, you ACCEPTED it, you BELIEVED in Jesus Christ, you REPENTED - then said, "Praise God, it wasn't of works, or I'd boast."????
lllannallll 8 months ago
@lllannallll
What I'm saying with the 747 thing IS why would GOD make it so diffacult for a person to be saved in places where you cannot get water, when your life is on the line. That does'nt make sense.Now don't tell me I should have thought of that before, because like the thief we don't know for sure when we will get saved, nor why. He did it for obvious reason he was about to die.
Peter denied Christ to SAVE his life.
I'm sure many have been saved by FAITH going down on a big jet.
ydnar0591 8 months ago
@ydnar0591 Think about how you sound - saying being a PASSIVE RECIPIENT of water baptism is a "work to boast of", yet INHALING on your own, OPENING YOUR MOUTH on your own, and CONFESSING your faith own your own - and being an ACTIVE PARTICIPANT, at that - somehow "slides by". WHO believed? YOU did, that's who. WHO repented? YOU did, that's who. WHO confessed? YOU did. Can you BOAST OF IT? No - you can't "boast" that you were PASSIVELY baptized, either. If so, that's some strange boasting.
lllannallll 8 months ago
@lllannallll
Faith and repentance are inseprable, they are an invisible "Action of the heart" . Repent and believe are the 2 things that can be done anytime, anywhere, any place....In the Frozen north of Anartica....in the hot sands of the Sahara desert...on top of the highest mountain, in a 747 plane at 30,000 ft..."FAITH" can work anywhere...with "baptism" you need WATER, and it has to be deep enough for emmersion, you must have someone to baptize you, and it must be another believer !?
ydnar0591 8 months ago
@ydnar0591 "Faith and repentance are inseprable" Certainly they are SEPARABLE. The 3,000 on Pentecost BELIEVED first, and Peter KNEW that: he THEN commanded them to REPENT. For a person to REPENT, he must have Godly sorrow for his sins - unbelievers generally have NO SORROW. For a person to REPENT, he must recognize the goodness of God, unbelievers frequently do not even BELIEVE in ANY GOD. Believing/trusting in Christ is ONE THING; repenting of one's sins is quite another.
lllannallll 8 months ago
@lllannallll
Maybe in your case that's true BUT to true believers YOU cannot separate the 2 things....If you understand the Gospel YOU cannot TURN to one...... BELIEVE...withoput TURNING from the other...... REPENT
ydnar0591 8 months ago
@lllannallll
Why do people misquote this verse "Godly repentance?" That verse simply means what it means in Acts 20:21.
21Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, "repentance toward God", and ...."faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ".....ACTS 20:21
Godly repentance is a repentance in a Godly MANNER...and NOT like the world repents...the world Does'nt repent if they love their sins.2 Cor 7 speaks of this issue.
Vs 10 says godly sorrow that brings salvation..which is by Faith.
ydnar0591 8 months ago
@ydnar0591 "you must have someone to baptize you, and it must be another believer !?" Oh, the necessity of another person is kinda weak. "Faith cometh by hearing." Pray tell, if that's how FAITH comes, how do you propose to HAVE FAITH without ever having HEARD ANYTHING. And if HEARING is necessary, then logically, ANOTHER PERSON did the talking. And if FAITH - by a stretch - came by READING THE BIBLE, then ANOTHER PERSON penned it. Some you have human agency either way.
lllannallll 8 months ago
@lllannallll
How are you going to be water baptized though 6 ft of ice, or in the desert, or on an Air Plane, or a mountain top?
What does all that have to do with being water baptized by another believer.we were talking about your doctrine,h2o
The believers baptixed each other AFTER they were Saved.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Timothy 3:16
What saith the scriptures.
ydnar0591 8 months ago
@lllannallll
Unbelievable ! In order to spare a "non essential" doctrine like H2o baptism you are willing to sacrifice the 2 "essential doctrines" of "Believing and repentance" and say that they are WORKS. There are hundreds of commands of Christ for Christian living, water baptism is only one of them. If I were going to pick a non-essential {TO Salvation} doctrine it would be "Soul winning". Jesus commanded us to Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature, {souls or H2o?}
ydnar0591 8 months ago
@ydnar0591 "you are willing to sacrifice the 2 "essential doctrines" of "Believing and repentance" and say that they are WORKS." They are not works of HUMAN MERIT, and NEITHER is water baptism. What's AMAZING is that you think "not of works, lest any man should boast" even vaguely refers to baptism. You can't "boast" of your baptism: you didn't EARN anything by being baptized, and you didn't even dream up the idea. In baptism, you were PASSIVE from start to finish.
lllannallll 8 months ago
@ydnar0591 "There are hundreds of commands of Christ for Christian living, water baptism is only one of them." That sounds more like the language of a Baptist Manual than the Bible. Suppose I do the same: I'll just ASSERT that I'm not willing to "sacrifice the essential doctrines of believing, repenting, and being baptized." Then I'll ASSERT that the THREE are inseparable - all part of the synecdoche of "living faith."
lllannallll 8 months ago
@lllannallll
Assert whatever you want. I still say God would not limit the places a person can get saved by adding water baptism to the "Saving Faith".
2 World wars, Korea, Viet Nam, Iraq, Afganastan, the Civil War, etc etc are good examples of places where millions died with NO place to be baptized, but you can bet your life they remembered what grandma & grandpa taught them or they heard the preacher say on Sunday. There are no atheists in foxholes and there's usually no water either.
ydnar0591 8 months ago
@ydnar0591 "There are no atheists in foxholes and there's usually no water either." And there's usually PLENTY of water in a Baptist church building, but they will usually WAIT until they have HEARD and ASSESSED your "EXPERIENCE", then VOTE on whether you're geniune or a faker, then might wait a MONTH til they can pack the house with aunts and uncles for a "baptismal service." I'd rather take my chances in a foxhole than follow the Baptist formula. And I suppose you would also.
lllannallll 8 months ago
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ydnar0591 8 months ago
@lllannallll
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. JOHN 15:13
These men, most of whom were only 18-21 years old {had not even lived yet} & killed in World wars to keep us free. Why would a loving God allow these YOUNG men to die who had heard the Word, and believed when they were pinned down by enemy fire & CRIED out to God for help, and were DENIED "ETERNAL LIFE" because there was NO water for baptism. NO, I'm sorry, I can't believe that.
ydnar0591 8 months ago
@ydnar0591 " they were pinned down by enemy fire & CRIED out to God for help, and were DENIED "ETERNAL LIFE" because there was NO water for baptism" WHO said GOD did? I SAID repeatedly that when NO ABILITIY AT ALL exists to OBEY a COMMAND (such as repentance, confession, or baptism) THEN THAT COMMAND is rendered "non-essential" IN THAT CASE. You can't CONFESS Christ before men if you are ALONE, can you? You can't be baptized if there is NO WATER, can you?
lllannallll 8 months ago
@lllannallll
I SAID repeatedly that when NO ABILITIY AT ALL exists: YES YOU HAVE said that repeatedly, BUT where did you get the scripture for that? Show me in CLEAR, verses anywhere that says that GOD will allow ANYONE who is able bodied a free ticket to Heaven without "BELIEVING THE GOSPEL AND REPENTING OF their SINS? Then show me VSs that say if they can't be H2o bap.tized, they get a free ride? What you are saying is according to YOUR DOCTRINE of H2o baptism they had NO ABILITY AT ALL.
ydnar0591 8 months ago
@lllannallll I SAID repeatedly that when NO ABILITIY AT ALL exists to OBEY a COMMAND (such as repentance, confession, or baptism) THEN THAT COMMAND is rendered "non-essential" IN THAT CASE.
YES YOU HAVE said that repeatedly, BUT where did you get the scripture for that? show me VSs that say if they can't be H2o bap.tized, they get a free ride? What you are saying is according to YOUR DOCTRINE of H2o baptism they had NO ABILITY AT ALL.
CHECKMATE !!!
ydnar0591 8 months ago
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@ydnar0591 "show me VSs that say if they can't be H2o bap.tized, they get a free ride?" Well, oddly enough, there is NO INSTANCE of a person who desired to be baptized BEING UNABLE TO DO SO. Out of tens of thousands of converts, NOT A ONE fits your ICU ward, foxhole, doomed jetliner, or anything else. And it's still about that way, I suppose. So why depend upon such a thing? You can't prove a doctrine by such a uncertain exception.
lllannallll 8 months ago
@ydnar0591 Trouble is this: like others, you seek to DISPROVE the necessity of baptism by MAKING UP examples of people who were plugging right along, but SIMPLY COULD NOT DO SO. Then you think it's just awful to condemn them to hell for NOT DOING SOMETHING that they COULDN'T DO! But when I SAY that 'where NO ABILITY EXISTS, then the person must be EXEMPTED from the command, you demand PROOF. Why would you care?
lllannallll 8 months ago
@lllannallll It quite simply proves, IFyou have NO scripture for the exemption you talk of, then NO exemption exsists, becuse H2o baptism was NEVER a part of Saving Faith to begin with.
It's hard enough to keep people from being decieved by errors in Calvinism, and Aminianism issues, without having to deal with people who want to pile on Non-essential doctrine like H2o,& tongues {UPCI} to the Faith & Repenteance requireed to recieve the Grace of God which SAVES men's souls.
GAMEOVER
ydnar0591 8 months ago
@ydnar0591 "It's hard enough to keep people from being decieved by errors" I just BET it's tough to convince non-Calvinists and non-Arminians that "faith" and "repentance" cannot exist separately - and we all know such a reasoning is solely due to being HARD-PRESSED - and yet totally deny the necessity of baptism when the Bible plain says baptism is unto the remission of sins, doth also now save us, is the putting on of Christ, etc. That WOULD be a toughie.
lllannallll 8 months ago
@ydnar0591 "It quite simply proves, IFyou have NO scripture for the exemption you talk of, then NO exemption exsists" LOL No, it doesn't. I never claimed to KNOW that a person who DESIRES to be baptized, but CANNOT, is still saved; however, such IS my belief. One reason for never finding such an example is: out of tens of thousands of saved people on/after Pentecost, NOT ONE PERSON fits your extenuating circumstances.
lllannallll 8 months ago
@lllannallll
Duh! That's simple enough, not one example is necessary since H2o Baptism does NOT save.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 I DO, however, have an example of 3,000 or so BELIEVERS who were PRICKED in their hearts, yet were COMMANDED to .. what? REPENT and BE BAPTIZED. Why? Because at that point, these believers had done NEITHER. Yet YOU quote the 23rd chapter of your imagination, fly in the face of this example, and ASSERT that "repentance and faith are inseparably connected." Well, they WERE NOT in that case, were they?
lllannallll 8 months ago
@lllannallll
Repent and be baptized FOR {Because of your Faith/ repentace}
I said real believers KNOW that Faith Repentance are 2 sides of the same coin and they are.
Got verses YET?
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "I said real believers KNOW that Faith Repentance are 2 sides of the same coin and they are.
Got verses YET?" Nope, and there won't BE any verses for that ASSERTION, either. There are PLENTY of narratives of BELIEVERS being COMMANDED to REPENT; hence, we know for sure that the two are SEPARATE. But as far as finding anything remotely implying that "faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin"? No.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
I did;nt say YOU believed it. I said WE believe it in traditional Biblical Chrisianity. Yes and when those commands are given we know that they are Faith/Believing Repentance. WE knoiw it...NOT YOU !!! Faith and repentance should happen at just about the same time, Belief comes first, otherwise you won't know how to repent. Many people are sorry for things they've done, and even tell God. Are they saved by that alone?or do they need faith in Jesus first? Just being sorry means O
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "I did;nt say YOU believed it. I said WE believe it in traditional Biblical Chrisianity." No, you don't. You believe in a semi-Calvinistic, semi-Lutheran theology which became extremist in response to 16th century Roman Catholic doctrines of salvation by works of human merit, the VERY types of works of which men might BOAST. Your beliefs on the efficacy of baptism, however, are AT ODDS with the "traditional Christianity" of the first, second, and third centuries.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
Now you propose to try and tell me what I believe ,when you are'nt even sure what you believe.
I'll tell you what I believe. I believe you have a different Gospel.
I believe Salvation comes by Grace alone, through Faith alone , IN CHRIST alone +NOTHING.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
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@ydnar0591 "I'll tell you what I believe. I believe you have a different Gospel." I certainly DO have a "different so-called gospel" than what you teach. Look at you: you believe in salvation by "grace alone". That's fine - but you can't be ADDING THINGS to something THAT IS ALONE. You believe in salvation by "grace alone", then what? You TACK ON faith and repentance. So there's THREE THINGS ALREADY - with more to come, I suppose.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "Repent and be baptized every one of you unto the remission of sins ... " Acts 2: 38 (ASV, 1901). Is it your position that (1) the 101 translators of the ASV were ALL WRONG and simply MISTRANSLATED the word "eis"? or (2) that "unto" is a correct translation, and "unto" means "BECAUSE OF"? Answer those two questions, and I surmise that anyone should see the folly of trying to force a "because of" meaning.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the "SIMPLICITY" that is in Christ.
Be careful you don't outsmart yuorself.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@lllannallll
I'm STILL WAITING for your answer to the problem of the young men on the many battle fields who wanted saved but ha dnot a drop of water, but are somehow exempted from the 3 rd part of salvation ....H2o. I know YOU BEIEVE that....SO...you have scripture for everything else...at least you think you do.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "I'm STILL WAITING for your answer to the problem of the young men on the many battle fields" In the first place, your "situation" isn't much of a "problem" - it's only so because you try to MAKE it a problem. It is doubtful that ANY young men on a battlefield NEVER had an opportunity to be baptized, but assuming such MIGHT be the one in a million case - what of it? I told you what I believe, and I do not base my belief on an extreme RARITY, bordering on an IMPOSSIBLITY. Do you?
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
I hardly think it's a rarity. I would say it happened quite frequently during all those wars, and with men on both sides.
It's easy to say they should have benn baptized earlier. We all should do a lot of things, but we did'nt.
Many times it takes a life and death situation for men to get saved. The thief on the cross is a common situation. Not the cross part, but the getting saved in the last hours or even minutes of peoples lives. I have preached the Gospel to several .....
ydnar0591 7 months ago
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@ydnar0591 "It's easy to say they should have benn baptized earlier." Indeed it is, and GOD is the JUDGE of such a person - not you or me. The difference is that YOU run around telling normal, healthy people that they don't HAVE TO BE baptized - and try to pawn off a definition of "eis" (for, unto) as "because of." But "unto" in the ASV MEANS "for", and "for" means "unto," and "eis" means "unto", and "unto" does not mean "because of". THAT is the difference between you and Peter.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "The thief on the cross is a common situation." LOL The "thief on the cross" is an IMPOSSIBLE SITUATION today, and such has BEEN IMPOSSIBLE ever since Jesus Christ DIED. That thief LIVED and DIED prior to the Great Commission and PRIOR TO the Holy Spirit directing Peter to speak Acts 2: 38.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
Again this is not leteal Crucifixtion, they don't do that anymore. Not as a rule anyway.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@lllannallll
...people on their death beds. Death beds conversions are quite common. They can be in a bed on on a battle field. Hardily rarities as you would try to make someone believe.
In fact I would say that MOST people need some kind of tragedy in their lives to bring them to Christ. The Bible speaks of this. So don't try that. Just say what you said , you don't have any biblical back up for your assertion of non -compliance to H20 baptism exemptions. There are none.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "Death beds conversions are quite common." Really? I do not personally KNOW of any, but nonetheless, I'd like to HEAR of ONE DEATHBED CONVERSION in the entire Christian dispensation. Since you hedge your doctrine on deathbed conversions, surely out of tens of thousands of conversions to Christianity since it began on Pentecost, you can point out ONE.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
I said that deathbed conversions need to be in a bed literally. This simply means at the end of life . The thief is a perfect example.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "This simply means at the end of life . The thief is a perfect example." I bet the thief isn't a "perfect example" of CHRISTIAN CONVERSION under the terms of the GREAT COMMISSION. You look to a DYING JEW for your example of CHRISTIAN DEATHBED CONVERSIONS. That thief was SAVED under the TERMS of the Old Covenant, and is a POOR CHOICE for a supposed example of Christian conversion.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
Speaking of examples...if someone were to agreed with you who is not a coc member, would you be at least a LITTE less hateful?
ydnar0591 7 months ago
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@ydnar0591 "Just say what you said , you don't have any biblical back up for your assertion of non -compliance to H20 baptism exemptions. There are none." Yes, I said that is my personal belief: that a person who WOULD obey the gospel by being baptized but CANNOT is still saved. However, I can find NO EXAMPLE of such an occurance, and have no argument with one who says, "No, they are NOT saved." HOWEVER, such is not YOUR POSITION, is it?
lllannallll 7 months ago
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@ydnar0591 "So don't try that. Just say what you said , you don't have any biblical back up for your assertion of non -compliance to H20 baptism exemptions." I never said there WERE, and in fact, it is MUCH EASIER and MORE DEFENSIBLE just to say that those who passed up opportunities to be baptized and reached the end of life's way - having neglected this command for YEARS - are LOST. That's EASIER, MORE LOGICAL, and VERY DEFENSIBLE. It simply happens not to be my personal belief.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "" When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit .. " (#1) Repent ye and (#2) be baptized every one of you (#3) unto the remission of sins, and (#4) ye SHALL RECEIVE the gift of the Spirit. Not only do you negate baptism with your assertion, you have BELIEVERS receiving the Spirit BEFORE REPENTANCE. You said repentance follows BELIEF: a person BELIEVES and then REPENTS, say, eight hours later. YOU have him receiving the Spirit EIGHT HOURS TOO SOON.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
"For " in Acts 2:38 means "Because of Faith" be baptized.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 ""For " in Acts 2:38 means "Because of Faith" be baptized." Well, I have NEVER heard anyone take a position as you do: that "unto" in Acts 2: 38 means "because of". Pray tell, what DICTIONARY do you use to determine that "unto" means "because of" or anything resembling it? I'd like to see that dictionary! Truth is: all you're doing is making a play on the KJV "for", but when presented with equally accurate ASV "unto", you haven't got a word to say, do you?
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
Well it has to mean something since in the entire context of scripture , it does not mean we are saved by our h2o baptism. So whatever it means it can't mean that.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "Well it has to mean something since in the entire context of scripture , it does not mean we are saved by our h2o baptism." You mean to tell me that you decided "for" or "unto" in Acts 2: 38 simply CAN'T mean "unto" (which Webster defines as "in view of an unreached end) simply because you have already decided that baptism is non-essential to salvation, so you must try to place an awkward meaning on the verse?
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
I told you that I don't believe God would make it impossible for some to be SAVED .....JUST because they had NO H2o.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
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@ydnar0591 "I told you that I don't believe God would make it impossible for some to be SAVED .....JUST because they had NO H2o." #1 ... I never affirmed that a person who CANNOT POSSIBLY be baptized (or CANNOT POSSIBLY confess faith in Christ with the mouth) is ETERNALLY LOST due to INABILITY. That is my belief. #2 ... I wouldn't FORMULATE an ENTIRE THEOLOGY over a one in ten thousand EXCEPTION, because, for one thing, I MIGHT BE WRONG about that.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "Well it has to mean something since in the entire context of scripture , it does not mean we are saved by our h2o baptism." The "entire context" would mean John 3: 5, Mark 16: 16, Matthew 28: 19, Acts 2: 38, Rom 6: 4, Eph 4: 4-6, Gal 3: 27, I Pet 3: 21, Acts 22: 16, Acts 8, and others. THOSE verses explain the purpose of baptism - and if you'd like to know about baptism, you'll have to look at PASSAGES that deal with baptism.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 In other words, if you'd like to know about REPENTANCE - what it is, who is to do it, the purpose of it, you can't look to verses about BAPTISM. You are looking to verses about "faith", then deciding that they refer to a faith before and without baptism, then try to force a meaning on "baptism verses" that spin them into agreement with a pre-determined theology. You know that won't work. I think that's being NICE, and besides, it's the TRUTH - whether nice or not.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "Faith and repentance should happen at just about the same time" They might - then again - they MIGHT NOT! THAT is why the two are DISTINCT ACTS: separate by definition and separate logically. I repeat: those querists in Acts 2: 37 were BELIEVERS. They asked, "...what shall WE DO?" They weren't told to believe - they ALREADY BELIEVED. Yet they had not REPENTED. And most Baptists, by the way, stick REPENTANCE before FAITH - again, very illogical.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
That's the way it happened for me. When I heard the Gospel and believed , and I knew why I needed to repent. How can you repent effectively if you've never heard the Gospel, and if you don't believe it , you WON'T repent either. Well you might if you were beliveing another Gospel. There are about a million Gospels on the Internet alone. LOL
btw: I'm not a Baptist either, and I'm certainly not a Lutheran. Most thinking people are only partialy in agreement with Calvin, also.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "Most thinking people are only partialy in agreement with Calvin, also." I'm not so sure about that. 'Tis very hard to be a "less-than-five-point" Calvinist. One pretty much MUST start with "total depravity", then logically I guess one COULD wind up at "final perseverance of the saints." Problem is: "total hereditary depravity" is rotten to the core and is the tap root of all the other silly dogmas that sprout from it.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
So you believe some were picked to go to Heaven and some were picked to go to hell whether they want to or not?
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "How can you repent effectively if you've never heard the Gospel, and if you don't believe it , you WON'T repent either." That's all TRUE; however, it is the polar OPPOSITE of what Baptists believe, so according to you, the Baptists have the ORDER ALL WRONG. I think they do also, but I'd be more inclined to SAY it.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "by Grace alone, through Faith alone , IN CHRIST alone +NOTHING." You oughta THINK about that! You believe in GRACE or GRACE ALONE? There's the difference between truth and error. You believe in FAITH or FAITH ONLY/FAITH ALONE? If it's GRACE ALONE, then, bless your soul, WHY get trapped in a corner by ADDING FAITH to it. Then when you add FAITH, you'll also, by implication, try to add REPENTANCE. And I suppose you'd add LOVING GOD. You're adding ALOT to an ALONE, aren't you?
lllannallll 7 months ago
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ydnar0591 7 months ago
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@lllannallll
Don't be childish.
Let's face it , you would'nt believe I or anyone else was saved if we are simply baptised in water , {which I am} unless they belong to your religion. Jimmy Allen said that already.
You not only have to be H2o baptized but you must do it in our water , by our people! You are'nt fooling anyone.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 I can flip the coin: suppose a person BELIEVES and TRUSTS in Jesus Christ, but kicks the bucket BEFORE he can REPENT, CONFESS HIS FAITH, OR BE BAPTIZED. We'll suppose he simply died an in INPENITENT. Saved without repentance? Saved without EVER confessing Christ? See how SILLY your extreme examples are? And I believe that EVERY ADULT who believes in Christ and repents of his sins MUST BE BAPTIZED as soon as the opportunity presents itself.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
That;'s why FAITH & Rep.are invisible actions of the HEART, IF he BELIEVES and GOD sees, he IS saved. 1Sam16:7 "God sees the haert"{unlike men.}
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. Eph1:13-14
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@lllannallll 3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the SIMPLICITY that is in Christ.
4For if he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER JESUS, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another SPIRIT, which ye have not received, or another GOSPEL, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Thank God, most folks I've talked to don't swallow the H2o addition anyway.
Another time behaps, see ya !
ydnar0591 8 months ago
@ydnar0591 "Thank God, most folks I've talked to don't swallow the H2o addition anyway." Well, I don't know that I'd especially "thank God" for anyone who reads Mark 16: 16, Acts 2: 38, Gal 3: 27, or I Pet 3: 21 then argues to high heaven that, despite the plain words of Jesus, Peter, and Paul, baptism is merely a "public profession of prior salvation." Perhaps, "most people you've talked to" have been sorely misled by zealous sectarian pseudo-theologians.
lllannallll 8 months ago
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ydnar0591 8 months ago
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@lllannallll
Got verses for "No-ability to comply / non-compliance H2o baptism salvation allowance doctrine" yet? If not ...Checkmate / Game Over.
ydnar0591 8 months ago
@lllannallll
Those verses don't say anything about being saved by water baptism.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "NO, I'm sorry, I can't believe that." I'm not asking you to. I think that you feel you have some defense in these emotional "deathbed" situations - even though I've repeatedly denied that a command is ESSENTIAL in a case where NO ABILITY to obey EXISTS. Still, you PERSIST: you've taken us through WARS and HOSPITAL ROOMS. Apparently YOU believe that were a COMMAND exists, yet a person CANNOT OBEY IT, that PERSON is LOST. You MUST believe that .
lllannallll 8 months ago