@scottwins2: The LDS Church does not refute what Bill is stating here. It's scientific fact - a cubic foot of solid gold weighs slightly over 1,200 pounds. Google it. Joseph himself gave the dimensions of the plates. They account for roughly 1/6 the mass of a cubic foot. Just do the math - divide 1,200 pounds by 6.
@BingsTV The Plates were about 40 lbs. if they followed PreClassic and Classic Maya gold works the plates could have base metals of copper and or nickel. 12 carat or half gold. 24 carat is pure gold and that was never the claim.
If you want to know if the book is real and true, the best test is to read it and ask of God if it is not true. If you are sincere you will know, I know that it is.
Bill pushes the limit to make and justify his points, its as if he is afraid that it is true.
During the Maya Pre Classic and Clasic Period most gold that has been found from that era is about 50% Gold that is 12 carat not even 14 carat (24 carat is pure gold) .If the base metals were nichel and copper with the dimensions we have of the plates they would be just over 40 lbs.
As for "the top of his speed"? someone run 1/4 speed that he normally could giving full effort could be easily at the top of ones speed.
Joseph Smith discribed them to be 8" long 7" wide 6" deep. The Plates of the Temple of King Darius were solid gold of which there were 2 and silver plates of which there were 2 found in the corner stone, they are in perfect condition. they had not been found during the time of Joseph Smith. The more precious the book the more precious the metal. Roman soldiers recieved brass plates for retirement showing the acomplishments and rank etc. They were sealed and substantial.
Joseph Smith discribed them to be 8" long 7" wide 6" deep. The Plates of the Temple of King Darius were solid gold of which there were 2 and silver plates of which there were 2 found in the corner stone, they are in perfect condition. they had not been found during the time of Joseph Smith. The more precious the book the more precious the metal. Roman soldiers recieved brass plates for retirement showing the acomplishments and rank etc. They were sealed and substantial.
That's how critics work. You explain to them the real details and they ignore it. The boy explained how the plates weren't pure gold. They only had the appearance of gold like how you buy a "gold" watch at Walmart.
Mormonism is a false religion and will lead people from "Christ" not too! John:3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. ...NOTE...the words "only" "son" (Monotheistic)Mono = 1 mormonism is(Polytheistic) Poly = Many, Jesus did not have a brother!
mormonism has 0, none, nada, zip, zilch for evidence
It's 19th century fairytale, made up from the mind of a pedophile, conman, scam artist
@JSeely218 You make accusations of Joseph Smith, where is your documentation, witnesses, and facts? You accuse, you just vomit up the words of the mob? Joseph taught Christ "I would that ye should come unto Christ, who is the Holy One of Israel, and partake of his salvation, and the power of his redemption. Yea, come unto him, and offer your whole souls as an offering unto him, and continue in fasting and praying, and endure to the end; and as the Lord liveth ye will be saved." Joseph Smith Jr
I found some help for the Mormons, Joe Sr said he hefted the plates and they were about 30lbs. Maybe they were aluminum and painted with Lamanite gold lacquer. the reference is in "Brigham Young", 1925, MR Werner. I'm trying to help the Mormons. grab onto to this and run with it!!
@Outlaw1257 Evidences Pt.3) Like most every other aspect of LDS, the hoops that one must jump through in order to buy into the fables of SmYth and LDS are endless. The story of the plates is only one problematic area for LDS. There are also matters of geography, geology, archaeology, anthropology, agronomy, zoology, demographics, the science of DNA, and continuity.
The excuses that many LDS apologists have contrived in addressing these issues directly contradict The Book of Mormon itself.
@Outlaw1257 Evidences Pt. 2 Had Joseph SmYth claimed to have simply found the plates, then walked home with them, his story might be plausible. That, however, is NOT what JS claimed. Smith, with his self-aggrandizing ego, claimed that he RAN several miles with the "plates", all while being chased and attacked by three men. I'm in my 50's, but even I could chase down a physically fit farm boy who was having to flee while carrying as little as 60#'s of weight with such a small mass.
@Outlaw1257 Evidences, Pt.1 Even if you buy the LDS excuses explanations of the plates being made of 'tumbaga",there are sill many problematic issues.
1) There have been no credible, independently authenticates sites where the smelting would have taken place during the time of BoM;
2) There are no credible, independently authenticated evidences of swords or metal armaments located in the regions of BoM during the time-frames of BoM.
funny how people will go out of there way to squabble over minute details like this, yet never bother to just read the BOM to see if there is any truth to what millions proclaim they've found. Reminds me of the people who refused to look upon Moses staff to be healed. If the church isnt true, Mormons still lived their lives full of faith in Christ performing charitable acts of service and good will and high moral family values. But if the Church is true, whoa be unto those that persecuted them.
@troybank Your suggeston that I've never read BoM is as fallacious as your other postulations, Troy. It's also every bit as erroneous as your unfounded assumption that I don't devote considerable time and money to helping other people. tHe problem here is NOT that I haven't read Bom; the problem for you is that I HAVE read it, AND researched it.
@Outlaw1257 I never addressed that comment to you..it was a general message. I dont enjoy or relish all the negative banter as its full of contention which at the core is not of God nor positive for humankind. I know God lives and His Son Jesus Christ lived and died and lives again. I think much of this type petty bickering will pale to the importance of how much our hearts were set on following His example in our lives. Im thankful for the Gospel and its positive influence in my life. Take care
Now you're attempting to do LDS Sidestep.... (LDS = L.ie D.eceive S.idestep) sidestepping from the realms of sustainable facts, into the realms of "testiphony". Truth is based in facts, and facts invite and welcome objective review and critical analysis.
Your beliefs, no matter how fervent, are unsubstantiated by facts. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Your beliefs, as well as The Book of Mormon, fail those measures miserably.
@LDStothecore IT LOOKS LIKE YOU DON'T ACCEPT ANYTHING ON FAITH. SO SAD. PROVE THE BIBLE.
**** Doing the LDS Sidestep again, LDSCore. There are parts of the Bible that are supported through the scioences, and parts which are discredited by the sciences. As for The Book of Mormon?? Porly written religious fiction, nothing more.
An LDS metallurgist, Reed Putnam, made this point in a paper presented to the Society for Early Historic Archaeology in 1964, reprinted in the Improvement Era, Vol. 69, pp. 788-89, 828-831, Sept. 1966 (now available online)
@troybank You still have not addressed how Smith managed top run several miles with these plates, all while being pursued by his attackers. You couldn't do it, none of the Mormon Missionaries I've met over the last ten years could do it, nor could your so-called "prophet".
@Outlaw1257 PT.2 Add to the mix, we are now left to believe that "Moroni" shlepped these gold plates from Central America (unless you are going to argue that the "real" Hill Cumorah is in NY) through jungles and desert lands, across rivers, over mountains, across the Mississippi River, and all the way up to Palmyra, N.Y., where he transformed into the Mormon Easter Bunny, hiding the "plates" so that Joseph could find them. Sorry, not buying that.
@troybank Have I ever "WENT" on a trip, and brought luggage?? Your linguistic capabilities are a weak as your defenses for BoM. actually, I HAVE traveled Central America quite extensively, and researched BoM in the process. (Quite an intersting story I could tell you there.... it involves inviting an LDS Bishop and his wife to travel with us."
Of course, I flew down there. "Moroni" couldn't exactly call The Lamanite Travel Agency and book a flight to Palmyra, could he??
@Outlaw1257 ha ha, whats funny is I still don't see whats wrong with using the word 'went' ha ha. It must be the wrong usage huh? Thanks for pointing that out and helping me correct it! I don't profess to be scholarly or pride myself in linguistics... But I do have a strong testimony and faith in God and glad he looks past my many faults ;)
@troybank "ha ha, whats funny is I still don't see whats wrong with using the word 'went' ha ha. It must be the wrong usage huh? Thanks for pointing that out and helping me correct it!"
***You missed the boat on this one, Troy!! Your answer should have been that you were speaking in a language called "Reformed English"!! ;o)
@troybank As for Putnum's work, you neglected to disclose that The Society for Early Historic Archaeology is a mouthpiece for LDS. Like SHIELDS, FARMS, & FAIRLDS, their credibility rests within the hallowed halls of LDS, Inc.
@Outlaw1257 Putnam didnt invent physics and the mathematical formulas. He just used the size and description, common sense and science to show how likely Joseph and others accounts of the size and weight of the plates match and are completely feasible to be around 60lbs.
@troybank "He just used the size and description, common sense and science to show how likely Joseph and others accounts of the size and weight of the plates match and are completely feasible to be around 60lbs."
60 pounds, Troy?? Seems as though you were arguing earlier that the plates weighed as little as 40 lbs.Scrolling back, you'll also see where i based the weight of these "plates" at 50 to 60 LBS. I even stated that 50lbs. was a conservative estimation.
Unlike books printed on paper, in which the sheets lie perfectly flat against each other, the plates were first hammered and then engraved with characters. This means that two successive plates would not be able to lie perfectly flat against each other. Consequently, a significant portion of the volume occupied by the Book of Mormon plates was air, not metal. The plates were manufactured by hammering the metal to a thickness of .02 of an inch with a 23-carat gilded surface of .0006 of an inch.
After being hammered and engraved. If each plate were .02 of an inch thick, it would occupy up to .05 of an inch in the stack. This means that only 40 percent of the plates' volume would be metal, with the remainder being air, which would not add to the weight. After finding the weight of a solid block of gold of dimensions 7 inches by 8 inches by 6 inches, Wgold block = WgVp = (0.698 lb/in3)(336 in3) = 235 lbs. whatever the weight of the plates, it must be CONSIDERABLY LESS than 235 pounds.
Since we have calculated the volume of the plates based on the dimensions given in the question, the procedure is to 1) multiply this volume by the percentage that represents the actual metal in that volume; this allows for the air spaces between the plates, and 2) calculate the weight based on the material composition of the plates.
Vp = 336 in3
At 40 percent as the percentage of the plate volume actually occupied by metal, calculate the volume of the metal in the stacked plates:
So based on the largest estimate of plate size, they weighed between 50 and 80 pounds. If Joseph Smith's estimate of 6 inches by 8 inches by 6 inches is used in the above calculations, the resulting weight is between 40 and 70 pounds. Both calculations are in good agreement with estimates made by those who hefted the plates.
William Smith and Martin Harris gave weights ranging between 40 and 60 pounds. See FARMS UPDATE for October 1984, revised February 1985, quoting the Saints Herald 31:644; William Smith on Mormonism: 12; and Tiffany's Monthly, May 1859: 165-166.
@troybank FARMS is hardly a credible research organization. As for the plates weighing only 40#'s?? The plates had to be a minimum of 8kts; so that pretty much shoots the 40# plates idea down. In truth though, the plates actually weighed nothing; they were just another fabrication in SmYth's imagination. LDS is simply grasping for more straws.
Smith's fables take some interesting turns here. As Mormon historian Ivan J. Barrett recounts it, the first 116 pages of English transcript, taken down by the scribe Martin Harris at Smith’s dictation, were lost irretrievably after Harris took them home to show to his skeptical wife. Mrs. Harris apparently lost, destroyed, or concealed the manuscript. She refused to disclose what had happened to it, and Harris returned empty-handed to the furious prophet.
Smith’s behavior in the face of this setback is exactly what we should expect from a none-too-subtle hoaxer who has claimed loudly to possess an infallible, supernatural translating technique and now sees that he risks exposure by being unable to reproduce the original translation. Does he start all over again, humbly trusting in the power of God to vindicate the truth of his claims? Not at all.
He receives yet another "revelation" from God commanding him not to re-translate the first part, because "Satan" has inspired "thieves" to alter the stolen manuscript. If he produces another true and identical version of the first l 16 pages, they will publish their "altered" version as the original in order to discredit him.
The twists & turns LDS has had to take in defending their "prophet" & BoM has become laughable; each discrepancy brings forth new excuses.
A historically popular anti-LDS question back in the day used to be "Who ever heard of ancient peoples writing on metal plates?!" Which you don't hear anymore because it's proven Joseph's authenticity over time... but now anti-lds are reaching for other straws with the weight etc which when looked at are also plain to see. approx 60lbs!
As for Moses; There is no archaeological evidence of talking/burning bushes, no anthrpological or archaeological of any "Exodus".... A MIGRATION?? Yes; but not an exodus. There have been no trails of Chariots unearthed in the Red Sea. And no, there is no credible evidence to support the notion that a 100+y/o drunk ever built a ship atop a mountain.
@Outlaw1257 well then, its settled... since they were expert metal alloyists and had them tested. Outlaw, cmon, anyone would have called them Gold, thats what they looked like. So stop already. You do more arguing than you do Christlike endevours of service and good will. Stop all this nonsense, it won't bring you peace, nor joy, nor fulfillment... only regret in the end.
@troybank Once Again, Troy, facts fail you, your feeble arguments fail you, So now, your are reduced to cyber-cat calling......... a very typical response from arrogant Mormons who follow a "Prophet" who stared at magic rocks in his hat.
Troy, in my responses to you, I have addressed issues from a factual standpoint. Unable to rebut those facts with anything more that Mormon Miracle Mojo, you have no reduced yourself to mindless and unfounded personal attacks and name calling.
Your's is a typical Mormon response. Unable to deal with the fallacies of your arguments, you are now reduced to attempting to obfuscate my arguments, which are based in facts, and dispatch them into realms of "hate mongering". Now, after your cyber-name calling, your unfounded attacks on my commitments in benevolent undertakings, ( which you know absolutely NOTHING about!) you are now reduced to playing the victim card, as Mormons who have been discredited so often do.
@Outlaw1257 The difference in mass between a stack of many thin sheets and solid metal of the same dimensions does not require advanced research and degrees to grasp. Thin metal plates, when stacked, are not perfectly flat. There is some space in between them due to imperfections in manufacture, the effect of engraving and handling, etc. Even for carefully made sheets of thin metal, it is easy to have air space occupying 20% or more of the volume - with 50% void volume being a reasonable value.
The metal itself is described as gold in appearance, but is most likely to have been the Mesoamerican alloy tumbaga, which is gold alloyed with copper. It is much lighter than pure gold (about half the density). Tumbaga washed with acid (simple citric acid will do) leaches out some of the copper on the surface, making it appear much more like gold and providing a surface well suited for engraving. Using the dimensions of the plates the weight estimate of 60 lbs or so is entirely reasonable.
@troybank So. Joseph reached down and pulled out 60#'s of tumbaga from where they were buried (approximately 2' underground), then ran several miles with them. You, Joseph Smith, or any Mormon missionary who's graced my doorstep would not be able to make it down to the end of my block carrying those "plates" in a pillow case; much less, with other men chasing you.
@Outlaw1257 I'm not familiar with Joseph being chased on foot after he received the plates, but for a strong man used to working by hands in the fields 60-80lbs could be done especially if God wants it done. The proof is in the message and witness of this great book. Its changed the lives of millions who have come closer to God ,and the Savior Jesus Christ. The greatest evidence you have of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon is the great and marvelous work that is going on around you.
@troybank You're not familiar with the tale of Smith being chased?? You need to do some legitimate research. As for Smith being able to run three miles with those plates?? Talk is cheap.
As for the "truthfulness" of Bom?? The proof is not to be found in warm fuzzy feelings. Truth is based in FACT, and facts will withstand critical review and objective analysis. "Great and marvelous work"?? I guess you're referring to the shopping mall LDS is building??
@Outlaw1257 Crazy to think that someone could have enough strength to run that far w/ 60 lbs on their back. That is almost as crazy as thinking a man could receive enough strength to stand between two pillars holding up a 'sport' stadium and push them over causing it to collapse...now that is crazy! How could anyone ever be that strong...oh wait...that happened in the Bible (Judges 16.29). If God wants it done, it will happen.
@Malachi4n5 WRONG!! Joseph SmYth was running "at the top of his speed" with golden plates and with a limp. Along the way, Joseph was hounded by a wicked witch, and attacked by a deranged scarecrow looking for a brain. He knew he'd find them in SmYth's golden plates. Then, Joseph was attacked by a tin man who had no heart, and a lion looking for courage. The gold plates contained all those things. Meanwhile, the wicked witch wanted Joseph's magic rocks and his white hat.
@Malachi4n5: Samson pushed 2 PILLARS - and it was not a stadium - it was a temple to the Philistines' god, Dagon. This threw off the weight distribution causing a domino effect - collapsing the temple. He accomplished it by the power of God.
RE: "IF God wants it to happen it will happen". TRUE. But God will not contradict Himself. Joseph Smith taught a false gospel that opposes God's already revealed Word - and then tried to pin his nonsense on God.
@BingsTV ...I was being facetious about the 'sport' stadium thing because 'temples' are intended for other purposes...but whatever. You are entitled to your opinion of Joseph Smith and the Church of Jesus Christ. People have been trying to discount Joseph and the church since it was restored and they have been unsuccessful at stopping the growth. It's amazing how the spirit works and testifies of truth. Nothing will stop its growth, especially insignificant videos/blogs such as these.
@Malachi4n5: "Nothing will stop its growth"?? You might want to look into that one. The LDS Church publicly boasts "14 Million members". The actual number of active Mormons is only "7 Million Worldwide". This figure was revealed to me during a business meeting I had last year with a Church Office, Temple Square representative - and he was embarrassed to admit it. But, I give him credit for coming clean. In a world of 4 BILLION people - you must admit 7 million is miniscule.
@BingsTV ...anyone that is involved w/ any chuch knows that the number of 'active' members are always less than those on record...this isn't earth shattering news. Christ himself was betrayed by someone claiming to be part of His church. You are correct...7 million is few in comparison...but as Christ taught in Matthew...strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
@Malachi4n5: Videos such as this one are "insignificant"? No - you'd LIKE these videos to be insignificant. They are anything but. One guy from Norway, posting clips on YouTube, has catapulted Shawn McCraney from local Salt Lake City TV host to international recognition. People around the world are now tuning in to the live stream because they saw him on YouTube. More importantly, here in Utah, Mormons who leave the LDS Church usually credit the Shawn videos with helping them find the truth.
@BingsTV ...these videos might deceive those that are not truly converted just as any type of anti-literature against another group might do the same for some members of that organization. To those that are lost and seeking to find something to fill a void, I hope they find it. But for me, I have found a gospel that fills me with true joy and happiness. I don't have to worry about others trying to tear me/my beliefs down because I have received my own witness of its truthfulness.
@Malachi4n5: Let's examine the Plates Story as it used to be related by the LDS Church, okay?
Joseph finds the plates on Hill Cumorah in New York State. Two great civilizations had once dwelt in the area - the Nephites & Lamanites.The last surviving Nephite warrior, Moroni had buried the golden plates just before he died from wounds suffered in battle against the Lamanites. Joseph runs 3 miles thru the woods carrying the Golden Plates - which the LDS Church now claims weighed up to 86 pounds.
@Malachi4n5:If the plates were NOT solid gold - why would the angel warn Joseph not to sell them for personal gain? Gold alloys aren't valuable. But if that's what the LDS want to go with - so be it. They were alloy. One day, someone realized at the time Mormon allegedly made the plates - gold alloy was only smithed in Central America - it's known as Trubaco. Since Mormon couldn't have made Gold ALLOY plates in New York - the LDS move the 2 civilizations and their battle down to Central America.
@Malachi4n5: Let's travel back to 400 AD - and to Central America, where Moroni is the last surviving Nephite of the great battle..
Moroni is mortally wounded. He desperately needs to hide the sacred Golden Plates of his father, Mormon. He musters up what little strength he has left - tucks the plates under one arm - and trekks - Not 3 MILES, like Joseph Smith - but, some 4,000 MILES, to a random hilltop in upstate New York - where he decides to bury the plates. Then he dies.
@Malachi4n5: If Moroni walked 2 mph, it would take 2,000 hours to reach Palmyra. If he could average 5 hours per day (over rugged mountains and dry desert valleys), it would take 400 days to reach Hill Cumorah. The man has been bleeding now for over a YEAR from wounds received in battle. Are you kidding me? I'd have buried the plates under the nearest cactus - wouldn't YOU?.
Do any of you LDS folks find this even remotely believable? The more they change the story - the less credible it is.
The fact is that your so-called "prophet" was a very gifted story teller, but he wasn't educated enough, or clever enough to think them completely through. Given the weights, even tumbaga would have been too heavy to reach two feet into the ground, lift, and run with.
Now, with the feebleness of your arguments exposed, you are reduced to telling me to shut up about it..... a common Mobot tactic.
@Outlaw1257 I've seen the great fruits from the Church of Christ being restored to earth. 13 million members worldwide should not be considered feeble. The church is here to stay, like it or not. I can't say that I understand why there are those out there who have such lack of faith, but what I'll never understand is people who work so hard at trying to tear down such a positive force for good in the world, unless influenced greatly by the adversary. Focus on the philanthropy, let the hate go!
Roy W. Doxey. Joseph Smith himself called them "golden," not "gold." Interesting how a little change in a short word can get so many people worked up! Doxey's discussion of the possibility of lightweight tumbaga, an alloy of gold and copper, is an extremely plausible explanation. Those who lack faith are usually the same ones who want or expect material or physical evidence. That evidence will come, but only after they have passed the test of faith
@troybank Even if these so-called plates were made of Tumbaga with a gold content of 8 to 12 karats, the plates would have still weighed about 50 pounds, ata a minimum. Go put 50# of weights in a pillow case, try to run one city block with it, and see how far you make it........ remember now, you have three men chasing after you.
@Outlaw1257 Even if the 'so called' Prophet Moses were to point his staff at the average part of the Nile at 40 feet deep and 5 miles wide, try parting it with just a staff and see how wet you get. Remember now, he had fleets of the Pharaohs army chasing after him. Oh ya, and now that your slinging doubt, I suppose I should stop believing in Noah as well. Even if he made a boat large enough for all those animals, its just to hard for God to get all of them into it. Thanks for enlightenment.
@LDStothecore "I don't care if the plates weighed 1000 pounds. If God wanted Joseph to carry them, He would give Joseph the strength."
Facts, fail, substance fails, objective review discounts SmYth's claims, critical analysis shoots them to hell, so now, we whip out the Mormon Mojo to explain the unexplainable.
1. You apparently were not paying attention; I specifically addressed the story of Moses & the exodus.
2. Even with the "tumbaga" excuse, despite the claims of Whittmer and Joseph's mother, you would still have a block weighing at least 50# at minimum. My 50# estimate is rather conservative. Since you apparently have no understanding chemistry, of metallurgy, you are simply grasping at more of your Mormon straws.
@Outlaw1257 I don't need any knowledge of metals or chemistry. I know by the Spirit the Book of Mormon to be true and that Joseph was a prophet. And I don't see where you addressed Moses.
@LDStothecore First, I did address the matter of Moses; scroll back and pay attention. This vid is about Joseph SmYth, not Moses; quit trying to do the LDS Sidestep. Like so many other ramblings you've done under your other handles, you are bereft of facts and substance, and are now reduced to rambling testiphony.
@Outlaw1257 YOU DIDN'T RESPOND TO ME, SO I AM NOT GOING TO SEARCH FOR IT. IF YOU DON'T RESPOND, I KNOW YOU HAVE NO RESPONSE. NO SIDESTEP. I KNOW IT'S TRUE. I KNOW YOU WOULD HAVE REJECTED MOSES.
@LDStothecore Go read the postings made 2 days prior to this one, Godlovesjosephsmith, TruechurchLDS, LDSTruechurch, etc.
My position on Moses is clear, we've discussed it many times, and you know as well as I do what it is. Once again, you're engaging in deception by pretending that you don't.
@LDStothecore Reduced to shouting in caps once again, LDSCore?? You're lying, and you know it. You & I have had the same debates over & over again; you aren't clever enough to alter your writing styles or develop new debate strategies. Seriously LDSCore, if you want to take your marbles and go play somewhere else, or take on one of your other handles, or make up a new one, that's entirely a matter of your own affair. I'll just have to suffer through being deprived of your presence!!
@Outlaw1257 It's obvious you are clueless. Call me anything you like. I know by the Spirit that what I believe is true. I hope some day you will humble yourself.
Same failed arguments, same reduction to mindless testiphony, same folding of the cards, LDSto the core!! Seriously, when you pick up another new handle, please try to be a bit more creative in your excuses!!
@Outlaw1257 I have research every single anti-Mormon argument and they are ALL lacking in any kind of proof. Obviously you can't even prove your own arguments. You can't prove the Bible or anything. Do you even have a belief system of your own?
@LDStothecore LDSCore, You already know that I'm not a Christian, and I've made my positions on The Bible quite clear. Seriously, if you want to debate the fables of talking snakes, talking/burning bushes, talking donkeys, the 100= year old drunk who built as ship atop a mountain, etc., go argue with a Chris-Fundie.
You have not conducted legitimate research of any kind; by your own prior admissions, legitimate research is not high on your list of priorities.
@Outlaw1257 Go on and sell your Mormon snake oil, gladly provided by LDS Excuse Factries. ((i.e. FAIRLDS, FARMS, FlimseyLindsey, etc.; then come peddle their lame cop outs, all framed in "does not necessarily disprove", "could be" "may some day prove to be" , ad nauseam.
@LDStothecore True to your past patterns of discussion, and bereft of facts that will withstand objective review, much less critical analysis, you're rebuttal now dwindles down to challenging my motives for coming here to post. I haven't been "complaining", LDScore; I've been debating based upon facts and science. You can whine all you want to, but you only make yourself look even more foolish.
***You are under the delusion that because you lie often, that somehow you lie effectively. Sorry LDScore, although you deny having any other screen names, your arguments & writing styles are consistent, your reduction to false assumptions, your persistence in falling back on testiphony, and your LDS Sidestep attempts are completely congruous with your past failed attempts, and belie your denials.
@LDStothecore "And I don't see where you addressed Moses."
**** We've discussed my beliefs about Moses, Noah, the talking snake, etc. many times before, LDS2core; Let's see know...... go scroll through some of your opther LDS profiles.
"GodlovesJosephSmith", LDStruechurch" "TruechurchLDS", and so many of your other screen names. Each time we've discussed those matters, your feeble-minded arguments and excuses dwindle down to empty rhetoric, sans substance, and mindless testiphony.
this MORMON motherfucker needs to STFU . I live in salt lake and I find it funny how they are against gays but if you look at craigslist it's a haven for thousands of lds homosexuals which cracks me up haha, daytime agenda pushers then night time fudge packers and they all have families and they are all spreading disease's along with their lie's. Living in SLC is scary because it's 80% mormon that's like living in a town full of idiot's and they drive..yay
"But though we, or an angel (moroni) from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
It is the FIRST PRINCIPAL OF THE GOSPEL to know for certainty the character of God, to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us, yea that God Himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ did...Here then is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God, and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, the same as all Gods have done before you."
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp 346, 347.
I say it would weigh less than 200 lbs. But the weight would be a good 100lbs, allowing for everything we can possibly do to help the Mormons out of this. BUT: Joe had a bad leg. He had a small limp from child surgery, piece of bone removed from his leg. I was no Olympian but I use to run much. Adding weight really slows you down. Just adding 20lbs and going "full blast" will radically slow you. I ran 3 miles in 17 min or 5:45min miles. But weight, Hill, muck, deep grass, logs, all slow you up.
By definition gold is also referred to as a color. The plates were described as having the "appearance" of gold. It was not stated that they were made of actual gold. It very well could have been that the plates were made of tumbaga which is a gold copper alloy which was used by American civilizations during BofM times. This would drop the weight substantially. That possibility has to be taken into consideration given its historical use among those civilizations.
Archeologists have found records in the number of hundreds that have been written by ancient civilizations on metal plates, some being made of the same material as I have described. Some dating as far back as 2450 B.C. Not to mention the fact that they were found in stone boxes similar to what Joseph Smith described. These are from sources that have nothing to do with the LDS faith. So you think I'm living in a dream world, but history says otherwise.
Dude, you are a big lier...they never found anything..You are just saying this to make yourself feel good. Read the SALT LAKE TRIBUNE and you'll find an article about millions of members leaving the mormon church because of all the lies they teach .
Ahh what Christian love you show. By the way how am I lying. Do the research. Here are a few examples to get you started. Ancient writings on bronze plates located located in the National Archeological Museum, gold/silver plates of Darius (National Archaeological Museum), Orphic Gold Plates of Greece, copper scrolls found with the dead sea scrolls, yada yada yada. The list goes on. with examples in major museums. I love your responses. There is never any intelligent arguments that go into them
Its so funny that you come to YOUTUBE to find ARGUMENTS??? hahahah..read the bible and google your questions and you'll find the answers you are looking for....if you believe the book of mormon is true, I would recommend you all the HARRY POTTER's books, you'll find lots of more make believe stuff..lol
LOL! Hypocrite. Your on here doing the same friggen thing. You have a whole page dedicated to bashing mormons. Wake up man. Lets not forget that all I did was post a comment about another side of the discussion and it was not in a tone to have an argument. Only a discussion. You belittled me by saying "and then you woke up." Then called me a lier and I proved you were wrong, so you changed the subject. So typical.
Look, here is what it boils down to. You and I are both acting like a couple of 5 year olds and are not acting Christ like. We both should be showing more respect to each other. I'm taking the upper road and apologizing if I have said anything that has offended you. That being said, Peace and -God Bless-
By the way I've read a lot of the anti material and seen some of the movies. Guess what, it only made my testimony stronger. People like you have been trying to bring the LDS faith down for years with the same old arguments and the LDS church only grows stronger. I bet that just eats you up inside doesn't it?
there are 6 billion people ...only 4 million are Mormons and the church is losing thousand of its members every month....and you say the LDS church grows stronger?? hahahhahahaha
So where is this so called article in the Salt Lake tribune about millions leaving the church due to lies? Went to their site and couldn't find it anywhere. Seriously I want to read it, so point me to it. What I did find though was a story about people who vandalized 5 of our churches and committing hate crimes by throwing rocks through church windows with messages stating, "'Stop spreading your lies" Was that you spreading your so called christian charity? LOL!!!
I don't think he is coming back. That was a good read "TruthNotLies" I live in Salt Lake City and can tell you without a doubt that what that church tells its people is not true. I am an open minded person, more than most. I went to mormon church around 8 times. I talked to around 5 different sets of missionaries just to see what it was about. Not once did I start believing that when I died I would become a god of my own planet one day (had to find that one out on my own for obvious reasons lol)
So what you are saying is, no matter what the evidence is against your belief, even if it is true, you will reject it? So what's the difference between someone who still thinks Elvis is alive and you?
61MAF - I don't know your beliefs, hopefully they are stoic and rational. My comment was directed to texasflood54, who exhibited classic cognitive bias in an attempt to confirm his belief. BTW Truthnotlies, with so much material (e.g DNA) why would you go down the metal plates objection path. Certainly the possibility or remnants of pre-Columbian metal working could exist, but just like the kinderhook plates, science has something more to say than they are heavy, and it's much more convincing
My bad...they are hopefully rational, I think. But it is all in regards to reference. Kind of like the elevator is moving and not knowing that it is ,except for that fact the floor indicators lights tell you so. So I side on God's view of the Holy Bible. That being said..it has lasted some 2000 years through the rhetoric, death by association, government laws, lawyers,science, philosophers and so on...PEACE and His Grace to you!
61MAF, unfortunately for most Christians, the Bible has not fared well against science (germ theory vs. evil spirits), history (Jesus's resurrection vs. Apollonius' resurrection), or philosophy (slavery vs. inalienable human rights). I mean, you can believe in the bible, but unless you accept the progress man has made in the last 2000 years, no one will think of you as sane or emotionally stable.
@ursowrng-I hear what you are saying and you have that right in our country.But I disagree your opinion on the different matters concerning the Bible. If I had agreed with your anwers...the Bible would not make it to our time and generation as the most owned book of its time. It has proven time over time historically and its archeaoligical findings.
As a former Christian, I appreciate your earnestness, and with admiration for your level of devotion, however this is not one of those conversations where we will agree to disagree. Just because ideas are tenacious doesn't mean they're worthy. The bible is one of the most horrific evidences of barbarism so as to be unsuitable for children, let alone adults. We are perhaps fortunate that many of the acts of God (e.g. the flood) are merely metaphoric, at best.
"Gold and silver grow, and so does every other kind of metal, the same as the hair upon my head, or the wheat in the field; they do not grow as fast, but they are all the time composing or decomposing." Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses 1:219)
Nephi grew the gold for the gold plates. It's as simple as that!
Bill merely is trying to show Mormons they would do better to learn their history and verify the things it claims. Few Mormons understand the basics which is sad and ignorant. It becomes arrogant when they ignore something so easily verifiable but as has beed said "faith is easier then gaining truth and knowedge". Good on Bill he will go down in history as a pioneer of truth. Unwitting Mormons please apply your God given intellect to your religion then apply faith...in that order.
Ya know, as soon as I heard the minister talking about the implausibility of running with all that gold, my first thought was--a true believer will just invoke divine help and/or magical superpowers as a nifty explanation. And here you are, making that exact claim.
Can even a "true" prophet have false revelations? Even Joseph Smith had to admit that some of his "revelations" might be of man or even of the devil. Comp Hist 1:165. This is contradictory in concept to the Deuteronomy 18:22 test, which says that the failure of the test indicates that the prophet is false.
Be the first in your Stake to own "Reformed Egyptians For Dummies!!" You'll be the envy of your Ward!!
Your "Reformed Egyptian For Dummies" kit includes a new off-gassing hat, your very own set of magic rocks, and a shiny set of electroplated gold tablets!!
You can write in or etch 12 carate gold. Bill never uses any information that may counter his work against Mormonism.
scottwins2 2 days ago
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BingsTV 4 days ago
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BingsTV 4 days ago
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BingsTV 4 days ago
Spin it Bill 200lbs? Is not a fair test, simply since you do not know.
scottwins2 4 days ago
@scottwins2: The LDS Church does not refute what Bill is stating here. It's scientific fact - a cubic foot of solid gold weighs slightly over 1,200 pounds. Google it. Joseph himself gave the dimensions of the plates. They account for roughly 1/6 the mass of a cubic foot. Just do the math - divide 1,200 pounds by 6.
BingsTV 3 days ago
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@BingsTV The Plates were about 40 lbs. if they followed PreClassic and Classic Maya gold works the plates could have base metals of copper and or nickel. 12 carat or half gold. 24 carat is pure gold and that was never the claim.
If you want to know if the book is real and true, the best test is to read it and ask of God if it is not true. If you are sincere you will know, I know that it is.
Bill pushes the limit to make and justify his points, its as if he is afraid that it is true.
scottwins2 2 days ago
During the Maya Pre Classic and Clasic Period most gold that has been found from that era is about 50% Gold that is 12 carat not even 14 carat (24 carat is pure gold) .If the base metals were nichel and copper with the dimensions we have of the plates they would be just over 40 lbs.
As for "the top of his speed"? someone run 1/4 speed that he normally could giving full effort could be easily at the top of ones speed.
scottwins2 4 days ago
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Joseph Smith discribed them to be 8" long 7" wide 6" deep. The Plates of the Temple of King Darius were solid gold of which there were 2 and silver plates of which there were 2 found in the corner stone, they are in perfect condition. they had not been found during the time of Joseph Smith. The more precious the book the more precious the metal. Roman soldiers recieved brass plates for retirement showing the acomplishments and rank etc. They were sealed and substantial.
scottwins2 4 days ago
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BingsTV 4 days ago
Scam Fraud Lie Indoctrination Brainwashing Manipulate Control Money False Fake Scam Fraud Lie Indoctrination Brainwashing Manipulate Control Money False FakeScam Fraud Lie Indoctrination Brainwashing Manipulate Control Money False FakeScam Fraud Lie Indoctrination Brainwashing Manipulate Control Money False FakeScam Fraud Lie Indoctrination Brainwashing Manipulate Control Money False FakeScam Fraud Lie Indoctrination Brainwashing Manipulate Control Money False FakeScam Fraud Lie Indoctrination
guayacan07 4 months ago
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guayacan07 4 months ago
@scottwins2 All that coming from a MORmON who claimed that the "gold plates" might have been.......................
................... get this, folks!!..... ELECTROPLATED!!
No kidding!! That's an excuse SCOTTWINS2 tried to pawn off!!
CounterCultureLives 5 months ago
@CounterCultureLives Never claimed electroplated plates.
scottwins2 5 months ago
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CounterCultureLives 5 months ago
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@scottwins2 You're lying through your Mormon teeth. See the Y/T vid:
"Joseph Smith and the Gold Plates, by Bill McKeever"
"The plates could have been copper with Elotroplated Gold as well. Estimates are 40 to 80 lbs."
scottwins2 2 months ago
As of 09/18/2011, it was on pg.5 of he vid. between a flagged post between "MormonFacts1 and your post which read:
"Bill when somebody says The Plates were Gold, Golden would be enough o satisfy Josephs claim."
scottwins2 2 months ago
CounterCultureLives 5 months ago
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scottwins2 8 months ago
Joseph Smith discribed them to be 8" long 7" wide 6" deep. The Plates of the Temple of King Darius were solid gold of which there were 2 and silver plates of which there were 2 found in the corner stone, they are in perfect condition. they had not been found during the time of Joseph Smith. The more precious the book the more precious the metal. Roman soldiers recieved brass plates for retirement showing the acomplishments and rank etc. They were sealed and substantial.
scottwins2 8 months ago
That's how critics work. You explain to them the real details and they ignore it. The boy explained how the plates weren't pure gold. They only had the appearance of gold like how you buy a "gold" watch at Walmart.
majinish 8 months ago
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2nd THESSALONIANS :2:11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
might want to take note to this verse mormons!!!!!!
JSeely218 9 months ago
Mormonism is a false religion and will lead people from "Christ" not too! John:3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. ...NOTE...the words "only" "son" (Monotheistic)Mono = 1 mormonism is(Polytheistic) Poly = Many, Jesus did not have a brother!
mormonism has 0, none, nada, zip, zilch for evidence
It's 19th century fairytale, made up from the mind of a pedophile, conman, scam artist
JSeely218 9 months ago
@JSeely218 You make accusations of Joseph Smith, where is your documentation, witnesses, and facts? You accuse, you just vomit up the words of the mob? Joseph taught Christ "I would that ye should come unto Christ, who is the Holy One of Israel, and partake of his salvation, and the power of his redemption. Yea, come unto him, and offer your whole souls as an offering unto him, and continue in fasting and praying, and endure to the end; and as the Lord liveth ye will be saved." Joseph Smith Jr
scottwins2 8 months ago
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BingsTV 4 days ago
@JSeely218 Yes, he did but since you don't believe that, he did have a Father. He prayed to him check out The New Testament sometime.
scottwins2 7 months ago
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JSeely218 9 months ago
Walking on water...check.
Talking Donkeys...check.
Talking to a burning bush...check.
A portable book of solid gold....nah! That's just silly!
thatjimguy 11 months ago
I found some help for the Mormons, Joe Sr said he hefted the plates and they were about 30lbs. Maybe they were aluminum and painted with Lamanite gold lacquer. the reference is in "Brigham Young", 1925, MR Werner. I'm trying to help the Mormons. grab onto to this and run with it!!
IExposeMormonism 1 year ago
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Outlaw1257 1 year ago
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Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 Evidences Pt.3) Like most every other aspect of LDS, the hoops that one must jump through in order to buy into the fables of SmYth and LDS are endless. The story of the plates is only one problematic area for LDS. There are also matters of geography, geology, archaeology, anthropology, agronomy, zoology, demographics, the science of DNA, and continuity.
The excuses that many LDS apologists have contrived in addressing these issues directly contradict The Book of Mormon itself.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
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@Outlaw1257 Evidences Pt. 2 Had Joseph SmYth claimed to have simply found the plates, then walked home with them, his story might be plausible. That, however, is NOT what JS claimed. Smith, with his self-aggrandizing ego, claimed that he RAN several miles with the "plates", all while being chased and attacked by three men. I'm in my 50's, but even I could chase down a physically fit farm boy who was having to flee while carrying as little as 60#'s of weight with such a small mass.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 Evidences, Pt.1 Even if you buy the LDS excuses explanations of the plates being made of 'tumbaga",there are sill many problematic issues.
1) There have been no credible, independently authenticates sites where the smelting would have taken place during the time of BoM;
2) There are no credible, independently authenticated evidences of swords or metal armaments located in the regions of BoM during the time-frames of BoM.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
funny how people will go out of there way to squabble over minute details like this, yet never bother to just read the BOM to see if there is any truth to what millions proclaim they've found. Reminds me of the people who refused to look upon Moses staff to be healed. If the church isnt true, Mormons still lived their lives full of faith in Christ performing charitable acts of service and good will and high moral family values. But if the Church is true, whoa be unto those that persecuted them.
troybank 1 year ago
@troybank Your suggeston that I've never read BoM is as fallacious as your other postulations, Troy. It's also every bit as erroneous as your unfounded assumption that I don't devote considerable time and money to helping other people. tHe problem here is NOT that I haven't read Bom; the problem for you is that I HAVE read it, AND researched it.
Your arguments fail once again, Troy!!
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 I never addressed that comment to you..it was a general message. I dont enjoy or relish all the negative banter as its full of contention which at the core is not of God nor positive for humankind. I know God lives and His Son Jesus Christ lived and died and lives again. I think much of this type petty bickering will pale to the importance of how much our hearts were set on following His example in our lives. Im thankful for the Gospel and its positive influence in my life. Take care
troybank 1 year ago
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Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@troybank
Now you're attempting to do LDS Sidestep.... (LDS = L.ie D.eceive S.idestep) sidestepping from the realms of sustainable facts, into the realms of "testiphony". Truth is based in facts, and facts invite and welcome objective review and critical analysis.
Your beliefs, no matter how fervent, are unsubstantiated by facts. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Your beliefs, as well as The Book of Mormon, fail those measures miserably.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 IT LOOKS LIKE YOU DON'T ACCEPT ANYTHING ON FAITH. SO SAD. PROVE THE BIBLE.
LDStothecore 1 year ago
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@LDStothecore IT LOOKS LIKE YOU DON'T ACCEPT ANYTHING ON FAITH. SO SAD. PROVE THE BIBLE.
**** Doing the LDS Sidestep again, LDSCore. There are parts of the Bible that are supported through the scioences, and parts which are discredited by the sciences. As for The Book of Mormon?? Porly written religious fiction, nothing more.
LDS = Lie Deceive Sidestep
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
An LDS metallurgist, Reed Putnam, made this point in a paper presented to the Society for Early Historic Archaeology in 1964, reprinted in the Improvement Era, Vol. 69, pp. 788-89, 828-831, Sept. 1966 (now available online)
troybank 1 year ago
@troybank You still have not addressed how Smith managed top run several miles with these plates, all while being pursued by his attackers. You couldn't do it, none of the Mormon Missionaries I've met over the last ten years could do it, nor could your so-called "prophet".
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 PT.2 Add to the mix, we are now left to believe that "Moroni" shlepped these gold plates from Central America (unless you are going to argue that the "real" Hill Cumorah is in NY) through jungles and desert lands, across rivers, over mountains, across the Mississippi River, and all the way up to Palmyra, N.Y., where he transformed into the Mormon Easter Bunny, hiding the "plates" so that Joseph could find them. Sorry, not buying that.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 Have you ever went on a trip and brought luggage with you? Quite simple isnt it?
troybank 1 year ago
@troybank Have I ever "WENT" on a trip, and brought luggage?? Your linguistic capabilities are a weak as your defenses for BoM. actually, I HAVE traveled Central America quite extensively, and researched BoM in the process. (Quite an intersting story I could tell you there.... it involves inviting an LDS Bishop and his wife to travel with us."
Of course, I flew down there. "Moroni" couldn't exactly call The Lamanite Travel Agency and book a flight to Palmyra, could he??
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 ha ha, whats funny is I still don't see whats wrong with using the word 'went' ha ha. It must be the wrong usage huh? Thanks for pointing that out and helping me correct it! I don't profess to be scholarly or pride myself in linguistics... But I do have a strong testimony and faith in God and glad he looks past my many faults ;)
troybank 1 year ago
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Outlaw1257 1 year ago
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@troybank "ha ha, whats funny is I still don't see whats wrong with using the word 'went' ha ha. It must be the wrong usage huh?"
***
Pride in demonstrating your ignorance, Troy?? perhaps you might consider taking Remedial English!!
"Thanks for pointing that out and helping me correct it! I don't profess to be scholarly or pride myself in linguistics..."
***
Quite obvious, Troy! You apparently don't pride yourself in conducting legitimate research either!!
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
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@troybank "ha ha, whats funny is I still don't see whats wrong with using the word 'went' ha ha. It must be the wrong usage huh? Thanks for pointing that out and helping me correct it!"
***You missed the boat on this one, Troy!! Your answer should have been that you were speaking in a language called "Reformed English"!! ;o)
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@troybank As for Putnum's work, you neglected to disclose that The Society for Early Historic Archaeology is a mouthpiece for LDS. Like SHIELDS, FARMS, & FAIRLDS, their credibility rests within the hallowed halls of LDS, Inc.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 Putnam didnt invent physics and the mathematical formulas. He just used the size and description, common sense and science to show how likely Joseph and others accounts of the size and weight of the plates match and are completely feasible to be around 60lbs.
troybank 1 year ago
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@troybank "He just used the size and description, common sense and science to show how likely Joseph and others accounts of the size and weight of the plates match and are completely feasible to be around 60lbs."
60 pounds, Troy?? Seems as though you were arguing earlier that the plates weighed as little as 40 lbs.Scrolling back, you'll also see where i based the weight of these "plates" at 50 to 60 LBS. I even stated that 50lbs. was a conservative estimation.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
Unlike books printed on paper, in which the sheets lie perfectly flat against each other, the plates were first hammered and then engraved with characters. This means that two successive plates would not be able to lie perfectly flat against each other. Consequently, a significant portion of the volume occupied by the Book of Mormon plates was air, not metal. The plates were manufactured by hammering the metal to a thickness of .02 of an inch with a 23-carat gilded surface of .0006 of an inch.
troybank 1 year ago
After being hammered and engraved. If each plate were .02 of an inch thick, it would occupy up to .05 of an inch in the stack. This means that only 40 percent of the plates' volume would be metal, with the remainder being air, which would not add to the weight. After finding the weight of a solid block of gold of dimensions 7 inches by 8 inches by 6 inches, Wgold block = WgVp = (0.698 lb/in3)(336 in3) = 235 lbs. whatever the weight of the plates, it must be CONSIDERABLY LESS than 235 pounds.
troybank 1 year ago
Since we have calculated the volume of the plates based on the dimensions given in the question, the procedure is to 1) multiply this volume by the percentage that represents the actual metal in that volume; this allows for the air spaces between the plates, and 2) calculate the weight based on the material composition of the plates.
Vp = 336 in3
At 40 percent as the percentage of the plate volume actually occupied by metal, calculate the volume of the metal in the stacked plates:
troybank 1 year ago
Vm = (0.4)(336 in3) = 134 in3
Using the weight of tumbaga alloys, we obtain
W8-carat = (134 in3)(0.368 lb/in3) = 49.5 lbs
W12-carat = (134 in3)(0.603 lb/in3) = 81.0 lbs
So based on the largest estimate of plate size, they weighed between 50 and 80 pounds. If Joseph Smith's estimate of 6 inches by 8 inches by 6 inches is used in the above calculations, the resulting weight is between 40 and 70 pounds. Both calculations are in good agreement with estimates made by those who hefted the plates.
troybank 1 year ago
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Outlaw1257 1 year ago
William Smith and Martin Harris gave weights ranging between 40 and 60 pounds. See FARMS UPDATE for October 1984, revised February 1985, quoting the Saints Herald 31:644; William Smith on Mormonism: 12; and Tiffany's Monthly, May 1859: 165-166.
troybank 1 year ago
@troybank FARMS is hardly a credible research organization. As for the plates weighing only 40#'s?? The plates had to be a minimum of 8kts; so that pretty much shoots the 40# plates idea down. In truth though, the plates actually weighed nothing; they were just another fabrication in SmYth's imagination. LDS is simply grasping for more straws.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
Smith's fables take some interesting turns here. As Mormon historian Ivan J. Barrett recounts it, the first 116 pages of English transcript, taken down by the scribe Martin Harris at Smith’s dictation, were lost irretrievably after Harris took them home to show to his skeptical wife. Mrs. Harris apparently lost, destroyed, or concealed the manuscript. She refused to disclose what had happened to it, and Harris returned empty-handed to the furious prophet.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 Smith's Fables, PT2.
Smith’s behavior in the face of this setback is exactly what we should expect from a none-too-subtle hoaxer who has claimed loudly to possess an infallible, supernatural translating technique and now sees that he risks exposure by being unable to reproduce the original translation. Does he start all over again, humbly trusting in the power of God to vindicate the truth of his claims? Not at all.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 Smith's Fables Pt.3
He receives yet another "revelation" from God commanding him not to re-translate the first part, because "Satan" has inspired "thieves" to alter the stolen manuscript. If he produces another true and identical version of the first l 16 pages, they will publish their "altered" version as the original in order to discredit him.
The twists & turns LDS has had to take in defending their "prophet" & BoM has become laughable; each discrepancy brings forth new excuses.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
A historically popular anti-LDS question back in the day used to be "Who ever heard of ancient peoples writing on metal plates?!" Which you don't hear anymore because it's proven Joseph's authenticity over time... but now anti-lds are reaching for other straws with the weight etc which when looked at are also plain to see. approx 60lbs!
troybank 1 year ago
As for Moses; There is no archaeological evidence of talking/burning bushes, no anthrpological or archaeological of any "Exodus".... A MIGRATION?? Yes; but not an exodus. There have been no trails of Chariots unearthed in the Red Sea. And no, there is no credible evidence to support the notion that a 100+y/o drunk ever built a ship atop a mountain.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
According to SmYth's mother and Davis Whittmer, the "plates" were pure gold.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 well then, its settled... since they were expert metal alloyists and had them tested. Outlaw, cmon, anyone would have called them Gold, thats what they looked like. So stop already. You do more arguing than you do Christlike endevours of service and good will. Stop all this nonsense, it won't bring you peace, nor joy, nor fulfillment... only regret in the end.
troybank 1 year ago
@troybank
If you knew anything about my philanthropic activities, you would recognize how foolish you sound.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 Yes, I suppose its possible that I'm only privy to the mr hyde part of your normally Philanthropic dr jekyll persona.
troybank 1 year ago
@troybank Once Again, Troy, facts fail you, your feeble arguments fail you, So now, your are reduced to cyber-cat calling......... a very typical response from arrogant Mormons who follow a "Prophet" who stared at magic rocks in his hat.
Troy, in my responses to you, I have addressed issues from a factual standpoint. Unable to rebut those facts with anything more that Mormon Miracle Mojo, you have no reduced yourself to mindless and unfounded personal attacks and name calling.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 remember remember, more philanthropy, less hate mongering! (only regret in the end) PEACE!
troybank 1 year ago
@troybank
Your's is a typical Mormon response. Unable to deal with the fallacies of your arguments, you are now reduced to attempting to obfuscate my arguments, which are based in facts, and dispatch them into realms of "hate mongering". Now, after your cyber-name calling, your unfounded attacks on my commitments in benevolent undertakings, ( which you know absolutely NOTHING about!) you are now reduced to playing the victim card, as Mormons who have been discredited so often do.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 The difference in mass between a stack of many thin sheets and solid metal of the same dimensions does not require advanced research and degrees to grasp. Thin metal plates, when stacked, are not perfectly flat. There is some space in between them due to imperfections in manufacture, the effect of engraving and handling, etc. Even for carefully made sheets of thin metal, it is easy to have air space occupying 20% or more of the volume - with 50% void volume being a reasonable value.
troybank 1 year ago
The metal itself is described as gold in appearance, but is most likely to have been the Mesoamerican alloy tumbaga, which is gold alloyed with copper. It is much lighter than pure gold (about half the density). Tumbaga washed with acid (simple citric acid will do) leaches out some of the copper on the surface, making it appear much more like gold and providing a surface well suited for engraving. Using the dimensions of the plates the weight estimate of 60 lbs or so is entirely reasonable.
troybank 1 year ago
@troybank So. Joseph reached down and pulled out 60#'s of tumbaga from where they were buried (approximately 2' underground), then ran several miles with them. You, Joseph Smith, or any Mormon missionary who's graced my doorstep would not be able to make it down to the end of my block carrying those "plates" in a pillow case; much less, with other men chasing you.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 I'm not familiar with Joseph being chased on foot after he received the plates, but for a strong man used to working by hands in the fields 60-80lbs could be done especially if God wants it done. The proof is in the message and witness of this great book. Its changed the lives of millions who have come closer to God ,and the Savior Jesus Christ. The greatest evidence you have of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon is the great and marvelous work that is going on around you.
troybank 1 year ago
@troybank You're not familiar with the tale of Smith being chased?? You need to do some legitimate research. As for Smith being able to run three miles with those plates?? Talk is cheap.
As for the "truthfulness" of Bom?? The proof is not to be found in warm fuzzy feelings. Truth is based in FACT, and facts will withstand critical review and objective analysis. "Great and marvelous work"?? I guess you're referring to the shopping mall LDS is building??
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 Crazy to think that someone could have enough strength to run that far w/ 60 lbs on their back. That is almost as crazy as thinking a man could receive enough strength to stand between two pillars holding up a 'sport' stadium and push them over causing it to collapse...now that is crazy! How could anyone ever be that strong...oh wait...that happened in the Bible (Judges 16.29). If God wants it done, it will happen.
Malachi4n5 7 months ago
@Malachi4n5 WRONG!! Joseph SmYth was running "at the top of his speed" with golden plates and with a limp. Along the way, Joseph was hounded by a wicked witch, and attacked by a deranged scarecrow looking for a brain. He knew he'd find them in SmYth's golden plates. Then, Joseph was attacked by a tin man who had no heart, and a lion looking for courage. The gold plates contained all those things. Meanwhile, the wicked witch wanted Joseph's magic rocks and his white hat.
CounterCultureLives 5 months ago
@CounterCultureLives Wrong about what? Are you saying God is unable to make that happen?
Malachi4n5 5 months ago
@Malachi4n5: Samson pushed 2 PILLARS - and it was not a stadium - it was a temple to the Philistines' god, Dagon. This threw off the weight distribution causing a domino effect - collapsing the temple. He accomplished it by the power of God.
RE: "IF God wants it to happen it will happen". TRUE. But God will not contradict Himself. Joseph Smith taught a false gospel that opposes God's already revealed Word - and then tried to pin his nonsense on God.
BingsTV 4 days ago
@BingsTV ...I was being facetious about the 'sport' stadium thing because 'temples' are intended for other purposes...but whatever. You are entitled to your opinion of Joseph Smith and the Church of Jesus Christ. People have been trying to discount Joseph and the church since it was restored and they have been unsuccessful at stopping the growth. It's amazing how the spirit works and testifies of truth. Nothing will stop its growth, especially insignificant videos/blogs such as these.
Malachi4n5 3 days ago
Comment removed
BingsTV 3 days ago
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@Malachi4n5: "Nothing will stop its growth"?? You might want to look into that one. The LDS Church publicly boasts "14 Million members". The actual number of active Mormons is only "7 Million Worldwide". This figure was revealed to me during a business meeting I had last year with a Church Office, Temple Square representative - and he was embarrassed to admit it. But, I give him credit for coming clean. In a world of 4 BILLION people - you must admit 7 million is miniscule.
BingsTV 3 days ago
@BingsTV ...anyone that is involved w/ any chuch knows that the number of 'active' members are always less than those on record...this isn't earth shattering news. Christ himself was betrayed by someone claiming to be part of His church. You are correct...7 million is few in comparison...but as Christ taught in Matthew...strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Malachi4n5 2 days ago
@Malachi4n5: Videos such as this one are "insignificant"? No - you'd LIKE these videos to be insignificant. They are anything but. One guy from Norway, posting clips on YouTube, has catapulted Shawn McCraney from local Salt Lake City TV host to international recognition. People around the world are now tuning in to the live stream because they saw him on YouTube. More importantly, here in Utah, Mormons who leave the LDS Church usually credit the Shawn videos with helping them find the truth.
BingsTV 3 days ago
@BingsTV ...these videos might deceive those that are not truly converted just as any type of anti-literature against another group might do the same for some members of that organization. To those that are lost and seeking to find something to fill a void, I hope they find it. But for me, I have found a gospel that fills me with true joy and happiness. I don't have to worry about others trying to tear me/my beliefs down because I have received my own witness of its truthfulness.
Malachi4n5 2 days ago
@Malachi4n5: Let's examine the Plates Story as it used to be related by the LDS Church, okay?
Joseph finds the plates on Hill Cumorah in New York State. Two great civilizations had once dwelt in the area - the Nephites & Lamanites.The last surviving Nephite warrior, Moroni had buried the golden plates just before he died from wounds suffered in battle against the Lamanites. Joseph runs 3 miles thru the woods carrying the Golden Plates - which the LDS Church now claims weighed up to 86 pounds.
BingsTV 21 hours ago
@Malachi4n5:If the plates were NOT solid gold - why would the angel warn Joseph not to sell them for personal gain? Gold alloys aren't valuable. But if that's what the LDS want to go with - so be it. They were alloy. One day, someone realized at the time Mormon allegedly made the plates - gold alloy was only smithed in Central America - it's known as Trubaco. Since Mormon couldn't have made Gold ALLOY plates in New York - the LDS move the 2 civilizations and their battle down to Central America.
BingsTV 21 hours ago
@Malachi4n5: Let's travel back to 400 AD - and to Central America, where Moroni is the last surviving Nephite of the great battle..
Moroni is mortally wounded. He desperately needs to hide the sacred Golden Plates of his father, Mormon. He musters up what little strength he has left - tucks the plates under one arm - and trekks - Not 3 MILES, like Joseph Smith - but, some 4,000 MILES, to a random hilltop in upstate New York - where he decides to bury the plates. Then he dies.
BingsTV 21 hours ago
@Malachi4n5: If Moroni walked 2 mph, it would take 2,000 hours to reach Palmyra. If he could average 5 hours per day (over rugged mountains and dry desert valleys), it would take 400 days to reach Hill Cumorah. The man has been bleeding now for over a YEAR from wounds received in battle. Are you kidding me? I'd have buried the plates under the nearest cactus - wouldn't YOU?.
Do any of you LDS folks find this even remotely believable? The more they change the story - the less credible it is.
BingsTV 20 hours ago
@troybank
The fact is that your so-called "prophet" was a very gifted story teller, but he wasn't educated enough, or clever enough to think them completely through. Given the weights, even tumbaga would have been too heavy to reach two feet into the ground, lift, and run with.
Now, with the feebleness of your arguments exposed, you are reduced to telling me to shut up about it..... a common Mobot tactic.
Now, you've run out of arguments
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 I've seen the great fruits from the Church of Christ being restored to earth. 13 million members worldwide should not be considered feeble. The church is here to stay, like it or not. I can't say that I understand why there are those out there who have such lack of faith, but what I'll never understand is people who work so hard at trying to tear down such a positive force for good in the world, unless influenced greatly by the adversary. Focus on the philanthropy, let the hate go!
troybank 1 year ago
Roy W. Doxey. Joseph Smith himself called them "golden," not "gold." Interesting how a little change in a short word can get so many people worked up! Doxey's discussion of the possibility of lightweight tumbaga, an alloy of gold and copper, is an extremely plausible explanation. Those who lack faith are usually the same ones who want or expect material or physical evidence. That evidence will come, but only after they have passed the test of faith
troybank 1 year ago
@troybank Even if these so-called plates were made of Tumbaga with a gold content of 8 to 12 karats, the plates would have still weighed about 50 pounds, ata a minimum. Go put 50# of weights in a pillow case, try to run one city block with it, and see how far you make it........ remember now, you have three men chasing after you.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 Even if the 'so called' Prophet Moses were to point his staff at the average part of the Nile at 40 feet deep and 5 miles wide, try parting it with just a staff and see how wet you get. Remember now, he had fleets of the Pharaohs army chasing after him. Oh ya, and now that your slinging doubt, I suppose I should stop believing in Noah as well. Even if he made a boat large enough for all those animals, its just to hard for God to get all of them into it. Thanks for enlightenment.
troybank 1 year ago
I don't care if the plates weighed 1000 pounds. If God wanted Joseph to carry them, He would give Joseph the strength.
LDStothecore 1 year ago
@LDStothecore "I don't care if the plates weighed 1000 pounds. If God wanted Joseph to carry them, He would give Joseph the strength."
Facts, fail, substance fails, objective review discounts SmYth's claims, critical analysis shoots them to hell, so now, we whip out the Mormon Mojo to explain the unexplainable.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 You are a fool. I am sure you would not have believed Moses either.
LDStothecore 1 year ago
@LDStothecore You follow a so-called "prophet" who stared at magic rocks in his hat, and you call ME a FOOL??
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 Yet again you have no idea what you are talking about. Read the book of Revelation. And you didn't respond to my comment about Moses.
LDStothecore 1 year ago
@LDStothecore
1. You apparently were not paying attention; I specifically addressed the story of Moses & the exodus.
2. Even with the "tumbaga" excuse, despite the claims of Whittmer and Joseph's mother, you would still have a block weighing at least 50# at minimum. My 50# estimate is rather conservative. Since you apparently have no understanding chemistry, of metallurgy, you are simply grasping at more of your Mormon straws.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 I don't need any knowledge of metals or chemistry. I know by the Spirit the Book of Mormon to be true and that Joseph was a prophet. And I don't see where you addressed Moses.
LDStothecore 1 year ago
@LDStothecore First, I did address the matter of Moses; scroll back and pay attention. This vid is about Joseph SmYth, not Moses; quit trying to do the LDS Sidestep. Like so many other ramblings you've done under your other handles, you are bereft of facts and substance, and are now reduced to rambling testiphony.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 YOU DIDN'T RESPOND TO ME, SO I AM NOT GOING TO SEARCH FOR IT. IF YOU DON'T RESPOND, I KNOW YOU HAVE NO RESPONSE. NO SIDESTEP. I KNOW IT'S TRUE. I KNOW YOU WOULD HAVE REJECTED MOSES.
LDStothecore 1 year ago
@LDStothecore Go read the postings made 2 days prior to this one, Godlovesjosephsmith, TruechurchLDS, LDSTruechurch, etc.
My position on Moses is clear, we've discussed it many times, and you know as well as I do what it is. Once again, you're engaging in deception by pretending that you don't.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 NONE OF THOSE NAMES ARE MINE. I AM NOT GOING TO WASTE THE TIME IF YOU REFUSE TO RESPOND. I WONDER IF YOU EVEN BELIEVE IN CHRIST.
LDStothecore 1 year ago
@LDStothecore Reduced to shouting in caps once again, LDSCore?? You're lying, and you know it. You & I have had the same debates over & over again; you aren't clever enough to alter your writing styles or develop new debate strategies. Seriously LDSCore, if you want to take your marbles and go play somewhere else, or take on one of your other handles, or make up a new one, that's entirely a matter of your own affair. I'll just have to suffer through being deprived of your presence!!
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 It's obvious you are clueless. Call me anything you like. I know by the Spirit that what I believe is true. I hope some day you will humble yourself.
LDStothecore 1 year ago
@LDStothecore YYYyyaaaaaawwwwwwnnnnnnnn!!!!
Same failed arguments, same reduction to mindless testiphony, same folding of the cards, LDSto the core!! Seriously, when you pick up another new handle, please try to be a bit more creative in your excuses!!
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 I have research every single anti-Mormon argument and they are ALL lacking in any kind of proof. Obviously you can't even prove your own arguments. You can't prove the Bible or anything. Do you even have a belief system of your own?
LDStothecore 1 year ago
@LDStothecore LDSCore, You already know that I'm not a Christian, and I've made my positions on The Bible quite clear. Seriously, if you want to debate the fables of talking snakes, talking/burning bushes, talking donkeys, the 100= year old drunk who built as ship atop a mountain, etc., go argue with a Chris-Fundie.
You have not conducted legitimate research of any kind; by your own prior admissions, legitimate research is not high on your list of priorities.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 Go on and sell your Mormon snake oil, gladly provided by LDS Excuse Factries. ((i.e. FAIRLDS, FARMS, FlimseyLindsey, etc.; then come peddle their lame cop outs, all framed in "does not necessarily disprove", "could be" "may some day prove to be" , ad nauseam.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 if you are not even a Christian, why even be on here complaining? What is your religious belief?
LDStothecore 1 year ago
@LDStothecore True to your past patterns of discussion, and bereft of facts that will withstand objective review, much less critical analysis, you're rebuttal now dwindles down to challenging my motives for coming here to post. I haven't been "complaining", LDScore; I've been debating based upon facts and science. You can whine all you want to, but you only make yourself look even more foolish.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 never used any other name.
LDStothecore 1 year ago
@LDStothecore "never used any other name."
***You are under the delusion that because you lie often, that somehow you lie effectively. Sorry LDScore, although you deny having any other screen names, your arguments & writing styles are consistent, your reduction to false assumptions, your persistence in falling back on testiphony, and your LDS Sidestep attempts are completely congruous with your past failed attempts, and belie your denials.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@LDStothecore "And I don't see where you addressed Moses."
**** We've discussed my beliefs about Moses, Noah, the talking snake, etc. many times before, LDS2core; Let's see know...... go scroll through some of your opther LDS profiles.
"GodlovesJosephSmith", LDStruechurch" "TruechurchLDS", and so many of your other screen names. Each time we've discussed those matters, your feeble-minded arguments and excuses dwindle down to empty rhetoric, sans substance, and mindless testiphony.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
The plates of the Book of Mormon were made of Fool's Gold: and thus they have "fooled" a whole lot of people!
orlovna2 1 year ago
this MORMON motherfucker needs to STFU . I live in salt lake and I find it funny how they are against gays but if you look at craigslist it's a haven for thousands of lds homosexuals which cracks me up haha, daytime agenda pushers then night time fudge packers and they all have families and they are all spreading disease's along with their lie's. Living in SLC is scary because it's 80% mormon that's like living in a town full of idiot's and they drive..yay
olverafam 1 year ago
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"But though we, or an angel (moroni) from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
Galatians 1:8, 9
61MAF 2 years ago
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It is the FIRST PRINCIPAL OF THE GOSPEL to know for certainty the character of God, to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us, yea that God Himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ did...Here then is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God, and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, the same as all Gods have done before you."
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp 346, 347.
61MAF 2 years ago
I say it would weigh less than 200 lbs. But the weight would be a good 100lbs, allowing for everything we can possibly do to help the Mormons out of this. BUT: Joe had a bad leg. He had a small limp from child surgery, piece of bone removed from his leg. I was no Olympian but I use to run much. Adding weight really slows you down. Just adding 20lbs and going "full blast" will radically slow you. I ran 3 miles in 17 min or 5:45min miles. But weight, Hill, muck, deep grass, logs, all slow you up.
IExposeMormonism 2 years ago
By definition gold is also referred to as a color. The plates were described as having the "appearance" of gold. It was not stated that they were made of actual gold. It very well could have been that the plates were made of tumbaga which is a gold copper alloy which was used by American civilizations during BofM times. This would drop the weight substantially. That possibility has to be taken into consideration given its historical use among those civilizations.
MagnumForce007 2 years ago
and then you woke up.
theTruthNotLies 2 years ago
Can you disprove the possibility? No you can't, because history states that material was widely used.
MagnumForce007 2 years ago 2
and then you woke up.
theTruthNotLies 2 years ago
Archeologists have found records in the number of hundreds that have been written by ancient civilizations on metal plates, some being made of the same material as I have described. Some dating as far back as 2450 B.C. Not to mention the fact that they were found in stone boxes similar to what Joseph Smith described. These are from sources that have nothing to do with the LDS faith. So you think I'm living in a dream world, but history says otherwise.
MagnumForce007 2 years ago
Dude, you are a big lier...they never found anything..You are just saying this to make yourself feel good. Read the SALT LAKE TRIBUNE and you'll find an article about millions of members leaving the mormon church because of all the lies they teach .
theTruthNotLies 2 years ago
Ahh what Christian love you show. By the way how am I lying. Do the research. Here are a few examples to get you started. Ancient writings on bronze plates located located in the National Archeological Museum, gold/silver plates of Darius (National Archaeological Museum), Orphic Gold Plates of Greece, copper scrolls found with the dead sea scrolls, yada yada yada. The list goes on. with examples in major museums. I love your responses. There is never any intelligent arguments that go into them
texasflood54 2 years ago
Its so funny that you come to YOUTUBE to find ARGUMENTS??? hahahah..read the bible and google your questions and you'll find the answers you are looking for....if you believe the book of mormon is true, I would recommend you all the HARRY POTTER's books, you'll find lots of more make believe stuff..lol
theTruthNotLies 2 years ago
LOL! Hypocrite. Your on here doing the same friggen thing. You have a whole page dedicated to bashing mormons. Wake up man. Lets not forget that all I did was post a comment about another side of the discussion and it was not in a tone to have an argument. Only a discussion. You belittled me by saying "and then you woke up." Then called me a lier and I proved you were wrong, so you changed the subject. So typical.
texasflood54 2 years ago
hahahahahaha...mormon hate??? My page is anti-mormonism not anti-mormons...sorry but you are far away from the truth.
theTruthNotLies 2 years ago
Look, here is what it boils down to. You and I are both acting like a couple of 5 year olds and are not acting Christ like. We both should be showing more respect to each other. I'm taking the upper road and apologizing if I have said anything that has offended you. That being said, Peace and -God Bless-
texasflood54 2 years ago
By the way I've read a lot of the anti material and seen some of the movies. Guess what, it only made my testimony stronger. People like you have been trying to bring the LDS faith down for years with the same old arguments and the LDS church only grows stronger. I bet that just eats you up inside doesn't it?
texasflood54 2 years ago
there are 6 billion people ...only 4 million are Mormons and the church is losing thousand of its members every month....and you say the LDS church grows stronger?? hahahhahahaha
theTruthNotLies 2 years ago
So where is this so called article in the Salt Lake tribune about millions leaving the church due to lies? Went to their site and couldn't find it anywhere. Seriously I want to read it, so point me to it. What I did find though was a story about people who vandalized 5 of our churches and committing hate crimes by throwing rocks through church windows with messages stating, "'Stop spreading your lies" Was that you spreading your so called christian charity? LOL!!!
texasflood54 2 years ago
enter the salt lake tribune web address and ad /ci_2890645
theTruthNotLies 2 years ago
I don't think he is coming back. That was a good read "TruthNotLies" I live in Salt Lake City and can tell you without a doubt that what that church tells its people is not true. I am an open minded person, more than most. I went to mormon church around 8 times. I talked to around 5 different sets of missionaries just to see what it was about. Not once did I start believing that when I died I would become a god of my own planet one day (had to find that one out on my own for obvious reasons lol)
solidc213 2 years ago
So what you are saying is, no matter what the evidence is against your belief, even if it is true, you will reject it? So what's the difference between someone who still thinks Elvis is alive and you?
ursowrng 2 years ago
what belief do you think i am?
61MAF 2 years ago
61MAF - I don't know your beliefs, hopefully they are stoic and rational. My comment was directed to texasflood54, who exhibited classic cognitive bias in an attempt to confirm his belief. BTW Truthnotlies, with so much material (e.g DNA) why would you go down the metal plates objection path. Certainly the possibility or remnants of pre-Columbian metal working could exist, but just like the kinderhook plates, science has something more to say than they are heavy, and it's much more convincing
ursowrng 2 years ago
My bad...they are hopefully rational, I think. But it is all in regards to reference. Kind of like the elevator is moving and not knowing that it is ,except for that fact the floor indicators lights tell you so. So I side on God's view of the Holy Bible. That being said..it has lasted some 2000 years through the rhetoric, death by association, government laws, lawyers,science, philosophers and so on...PEACE and His Grace to you!
61MAF 2 years ago
61MAF, unfortunately for most Christians, the Bible has not fared well against science (germ theory vs. evil spirits), history (Jesus's resurrection vs. Apollonius' resurrection), or philosophy (slavery vs. inalienable human rights). I mean, you can believe in the bible, but unless you accept the progress man has made in the last 2000 years, no one will think of you as sane or emotionally stable.
ursowrng 2 years ago
@ursowrng-I hear what you are saying and you have that right in our country.But I disagree your opinion on the different matters concerning the Bible. If I had agreed with your anwers...the Bible would not make it to our time and generation as the most owned book of its time. It has proven time over time historically and its archeaoligical findings.
61MAF 2 years ago
As a former Christian, I appreciate your earnestness, and with admiration for your level of devotion, however this is not one of those conversations where we will agree to disagree. Just because ideas are tenacious doesn't mean they're worthy. The bible is one of the most horrific evidences of barbarism so as to be unsuitable for children, let alone adults. We are perhaps fortunate that many of the acts of God (e.g. the flood) are merely metaphoric, at best.
ursowrng 2 years ago
So, this "angel", "Moroni" who wrote these tales on these "gold plates" used such words as 'thee", "thou", and 'thyne"??
Let's see now... The Bible, which is less correct than than The Book of Mormon, was written in Aramaic.
Words like "thee", "thyne", and "thou" did not appear until King James commissioned the translation of it.
So, there is was no reason that "Moroni" to have used the language of King James, was there??
Outlaw1257 2 years ago
Nephi used pure gold. How do we know this?
"Gold and silver grow, and so does every other kind of metal, the same as the hair upon my head, or the wheat in the field; they do not grow as fast, but they are all the time composing or decomposing." Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses 1:219)
Nephi grew the gold for the gold plates. It's as simple as that!
AmIWhiteYet 2 years ago
Bill merely is trying to show Mormons they would do better to learn their history and verify the things it claims. Few Mormons understand the basics which is sad and ignorant. It becomes arrogant when they ignore something so easily verifiable but as has beed said "faith is easier then gaining truth and knowedge". Good on Bill he will go down in history as a pioneer of truth. Unwitting Mormons please apply your God given intellect to your religion then apply faith...in that order.
SuperHodja 2 years ago
Well put!
seethebright 2 years ago
Joseph was a buff guy then and god was helping him and no mormon ever saind joseph took it like a walk in the park he probly struggled
xXAmericanbigboyXx 2 years ago
Ya know, as soon as I heard the minister talking about the implausibility of running with all that gold, my first thought was--a true believer will just invoke divine help and/or magical superpowers as a nifty explanation. And here you are, making that exact claim.
seethebright 2 years ago
Science is a nuisance, truth is the enemy....
Outlaw1257 2 years ago
Billy going to the daycare center in hopes anyone will listen to him.
martidw 2 years ago
tumpaga anyone?
Kolohe86786876786786 2 years ago
hahahaha people look like clowns when they try to make up excuses for solid evidence
MORMONS = MASTERS OF EXCUSES
MALDITTOROKKERO 3 years ago
MALDI = MASTER OF LIES
ScottsdaleStylee 2 years ago
now I understand why you are mormon..you are an Attorney ..attorneys are used to lie..it makes sense.
theTruthNotLies 2 years ago
TNL -- Do you also think that every Mexican is illegal? Do you also think every African American is a criminal?
Thanks for helping me understand why you criticize and attack other people. Are you a bigot?
ScottsdaleStylee 2 years ago
Can even a "true" prophet have false revelations? Even Joseph Smith had to admit that some of his "revelations" might be of man or even of the devil. Comp Hist 1:165. This is contradictory in concept to the Deuteronomy 18:22 test, which says that the failure of the test indicates that the prophet is false.
theTruthNotLies 2 years ago
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Outlaw1257 3 years ago
Ha! Very good.
seethebright 2 years ago
old naive man, he had the power of god on his shoulders! joseph smith did it! LDS!
i proved you wrong in person, dont come back this year and i wont embarrass you again!
KamikazeFlim 3 years ago
You're a living legend in your own mind, KamikazeFilm!!
Proved him wrong My ASS!!
Outlaw1257 3 years ago