Should have given him a smack, the bitch deserved it. At any rate Oberstein was clearly trolling him because he was an obstacle at the time that he wanted to get rid of. Also say what you want about Bitten, but after all he did kill off like 4-5 of the Alliance's best admirals. If he made any mistakes, the responsibility lies with the one who assigned him to do tasks he wasn't appropriate for.
Oberstein doesn't troll; he's always dead serious. :) Appleton or Ulanfu don't really qualify as among the FPA's best admirals. They were so unimportant that we don't even know what their first names were. Bittenfeld was far more efficient at getting some of the Empire's better talent killed (Fahrenheit). But I do agree that it is ultimately Reinhard's fault; he shouldn't have promoted Bittenfeld as much as he did in the first place.
Similarly, Lennenkanpt's failure to maintain order in the FPA and Reuental's rebellion were also Reinhard's fault. Oberstein foresaw and advised Reinhard against both of these appointments. Sadly, the blonde brat was a very stubborn fellow.
@DerOberstein While Bittenfeld did do recklessly stupid things from time-to-time, it needs to be remembered that Oberstein was only able to serve Rheinhard AFTER he made sure to speak with him ALONE, without Kircheis. And he knew that he had to speak to him alone because Kircheis would not have sat there & let Oberstein point out how much faster he can reach his goals, by doing dirt in the manner that Oberstein ultimately did. It is Oberstein's policy of no #2 that gets Kircheis killed.
What's your point? Reinhard appointed Oberstein as an adviser. It was Oberstein's JOB to give Reinhard the advice Oberstein thought was most productive for achieving Reinhard's goals. Reinhard was the one who agreed to treat Kircheis the same as the other admirals so the responsibility for indirectly creating a situation where Kircheis might die was and will always will be his, not Oberstein's.
@DerOberstein I know you're not throwing an attitude at me when my post speaks for itself. Who kept pestering Rheinhard about no #2 & treat Kircheis like the rest of your commanders? Job you say? Oberstein was a petty fool who only excelled because of the nature of "storytelling" by the creators of this series. The reality is that IF this was based on any REALITY? Rheinhard would have put a beam thru his head right after he recovered his senses, because Kircheis warned him about Oberstein.
You have a very bizarre sense of "reality," but that's not really relevant. Oberstein performed the duties assigned to him. Reinhard recruited Oberstein because Oberstein had a capability to present things as they are logically without silly passions to cloud his judgment. His reasoning behind objective to Reinhard's policy of favoritism was sound; even Reinhard was able to set aside his personal feelings and see Oberstein's argument for its merits.
@DerOberstein The FACTS are exactly as I posted on your page. Nowhere in episode 25 or 26, does Rheinhard EVER give the order to block any & all weapons from the hall with no exceptions & I was hoping you would talk about "how Rheinhard was" & "how the show was" because within that framework you hang yourself. When he made decisions the viewer is shown HE MADE THAT DECISION, the no weapons no exceptions order, is NEVER SHOWN TO COME FROM HIM, so who else can give THAT ORDER? ONLY. OBERSTEIN.
lol. It's evident that you are a person much like Bittenfeld: lots of passion but little grasp of logic. You completely ignore the context of what transpired. "All right, drop it" can arguably be interpreted two ways so it may not be enough alone to assign blame. However, considering that Oberstein was never punished and in fact was rewarded with a promotion to High Admiral after the Lippstadt rebellion is telling.
@DerOberstein What is evident, is that you have never had to be anywhere near, anything like this in real life. All right drop it, means, all right drop it. You'll have to do better than that Oberstein-wanna-be, for that kind of childishness to work on me. You yourself already pointed out that Rheinhard takes responsibility for his own actions & the show, SHOWS, when he does things like give orders or ideas, win or lose. The no weapons order is NEVER SHOWN to come from Rheinhard. Period.
Oberstein's leap in status after the Lippstadt rebellion make very little sense in the context ofr your argument that OBERSTEIN KILLED KIRCHEIS!!!!. So how do you reconcile this fact with your thesis? You make this bizarre argument that the writers are "wrong" and that Oberstein should be dead. A fairly illogical position based more on your own negative personal feelings toward Oberstein than on facts.
@DerOberstein Oberstein was a PLOT-DEVICE, JUST LIKE KIRCHEIS DEATH, WAS A PLOT-DEVICE, but what isn't a plot-device? Your page. And this is why I'm letting you know, I'm well-aware by what you have on your page, you will find any "justification" to continue your hero-worship or whatever of Oberstein, like I said before. It works IN A CARTOON, not in the real world. Oberstein's personality would get him murdered QUICKLY, in the real world. LOGH's is an OK series, when talked about seriously.
Your angry emotionalism does not help your case. I approached the issue of Kircheis' death by asking "upon whom should the blame fall?" and then I use data to find the most logical answer. You approach Kircheis death by simply screaming OBERSTEIN DID IT!!! and then let this bias cloud how you look at the data.
@DerOberstein What data have you put forward? You are an empty circle-talker, the proof of who was responsible is shown in episode 25 & 26 & in a typical Japanimation moment, in an attempt to make things seem "complex" or "emotional", no HONEST CONVERSATION TAKES PLACE BETWEEN THE CHARACTERS, where the show, shows, that it was written by Japanese writers. This is where stomaching LOGH becomes tiresome if you have any actual understanding of people & what the writers are trying to get across.
What have I put forward? I put forward a very comprehensible and logical interpretation of the events surrounding the death of Kircheis. All you have done is spewed vitriol and rejected any fact from the show that contradicts your silly point. :)
@DerOberstein I didn't know that if you post too many comments on youtube, it then asks you to verify yourself? Really? That's disappointing, but predictable for today's world. As for everything else, where is the episode where Rheinhard gave the order for no weapons no exceptions & that Kircheis is included?
This is no better illustrated than by you arguing the writers are somehow "wrong" and that "reality" doesn't work in some way you don't agree with. You simply took data that CONTRADICTS your argument and dismissed it. That is not very logical argumentation. :)
@DerOberstein If this was written correctly, then instead of sitting at the table in shock after Kircheis death, there would have been AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN an investigation into WHY DIDN'T HE HAVE HIS FIREARM? This simple statement on my part is NEVER DIRECTLY APPROACHED throughout the ENTIRE SERIES. Because if it is? Then what happens to EVERYONE INVOLVED. And? I hope you haven't fallen for me using caps, as a means of me being "emotional". That would be too easy to trick you with, Oberstein Jr
Nonsense. Why should they launch an investigation to explain something Reinhard already knew? Reinhard consented to Oberstein's objection to Reinhard's practice of favoritism, this resulted in Kircheis getting killed in an unfortunate freak incident, and Reinhard accepted what little responsibility he had for Kircheis' death because it was ultimately Reinhard to agreed to Oberstein's objections in the first place. It's actually pretty straight forward.
@DerOberstein Where is the episode that this takes place at where Rheinhard consented to Oberstein's objections? And what was said to show that? You're not going to find any such episode because I already wasted my time checking for it this morning & this is the reason why you haven't posted any actual direct quotes or scenes from the actual show. Because you don't have any direct scenes or quotes to go by, except the lame excuse that it was just dropped by the writers & glossed over.
You're basically asking me to repeat myself now. "Alright, drop it" could easily be interpreted as Reinhard consenting to Oberstein and telling him to leave him alone about it. Admittedly, this interpretation isn't enough alone, so when combined with the fact that Oberstein was magnanimously rewarded by Reinhard after the Lippstadt rebellion, it's plainly obvious Reinhard didn't think Oberstein was to blame for it.
@DerOberstein All right drop it, means shut up. And that is actually the way that people like Oberstein need to be talked to, because they already think they're smarter than they are. Oberstein was then rewarded for two reasons, the first one, which is most important,is because the writers made it that way. This first PROBLEM, is the real reason why most of my friends don't bother watching LOGH. Kircheis was a long-time subordinate/friend of Rheinhard, what place does a deserter have talking?
@DerOberstein And this is why I said, in a cartoon, sure this can be forced to work, in reality? No. We are shown in LOGH that Oberstein saw thru the FPA plot when at his post, he then makes two detached attempts to speak-up, then promptly shuts up. He didn't fiercely fight for or argue over why they should listen to him, until he was tossed in the brig for insubordination. One reason being was because he knew these men, WOULD KILL HIM. PERIOD. Even for his passionless advisories. So then what?
Again, that is only YOUR inference of that one line. By itself it doesn't prove anything. The rest of you argument is this absurd claim that the writers (and by extension the guy who wrote the original LoGH novels) are "incorrect." This also doesn't prove anything apart from your own personal bias. Oberstein's continued promotion and increase in prestige places things in a very comprehensible context that you dislike, so you blatantly choose to ignore it.
@DerOberstein He then ABANDONS HIS POST & ESCAPES? HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA! He then promptly runs to Rheinhard, but first decides to talk to Kircheis. BOTH OF THEM KNOW THEY ARE ENEMIES, I don't care how POLITE THEY WERE about. Oberstein is the evil version of Kircheis, am I supposed to be impressed by that? Really? Kircheis doesn't like him & for good reason. Prior to Oberstein, Kircheis had always been the calming influence & anchor for Rheinhard, this is shown repeatedly. Oberstein already knew....
@geesehoward4life There was no way that he would be able to get a spot with Rheinhard if Kircheis is around or be able to KEEP A SPOT if he stays. While YOU would like to forget that Oberstein abandoned his post, for whatever the reason he did, the fact is still that he FLED! He HAD TO GET WITH RHEINHARD, OR HE WAS FACING MILITARY PUNISHMENT FOR FLEEING HIS POST! The only person powerful enough to PROTECT HIM, WAS RHEINHARD. So he has too many things other than good-intent going on from the door
Again, what does any of this nonsense have to do with who is responsible for Kircheis' death? You keep rambling irrationally about nothing while dodging the issue at hand. If you can't counter my argument then save face and concede. You're just making ridiculous emotional appeals now.
Yes, I know you don't like Oberstein. That's why you can't approach the question of who should be blamed for Kircheis' death with any sense of logic and reason. Emotionalism and passion do nothing to help your case. :) I ask a question and seek facts. You make a highly biased and irrational statement and dismiss any facts that contradict it. In a way, you are Bittenfeld. :D
@DerOberstein It is shown repeatedly throughout the series, even before Kircheis death, that Rheinhard could be manipulated or pushed in certain ways & it is also shown that Oberstein knows how to do things like this, however? When Oberstein finally decides to talk to Rheinhard, he asks to do so without Kircheis, all this is, is a weak attempt by Oberstein to discern what their relationship is & especially whether or not Kircheis is blindly obedient to Rheinhard. Kircheis leaves, as he was told
Oh, so you concede that Reinhard agreed to Oberstein's advice but was "manipulated"? Sorry, but while I am glad you're starting to reconcile with facts, that is just a weak attempt at passing the blame. Reinhard is the boss. Reinhard repeatedly insists he won't take orders from anyone. Reinhard took Oberstein advice and Reinhard takes the responsibility for it. That's how a chain of command works. The Imperial Fleet isn't a group of undisciplined thugs.
@DerOberstein The moment that he left that room & let Rheinhard talk to Oberstein alone, he signed his own death warrant. Oberstein talks a good game, but doesn't back it up if he knows the person he's dealing with, will cut the pretense & just kill him or beat him up. All that talk in the above video? About whose army is it, blah-blah blah? Then where was this at when his bitch-ass was running away from Iserlohn? Where was his COLD LOGIC OF FACTS, talking to the commanders of the fort then?
@DerOberstein He didn't speak up THEN & SAY THE THINGS HE DID TO BITTENFELD, because those commanders in that fort at that time, would have had his ass on a platter for trying to talk snide to them like that. Oberstein knows, for the most part, who to fuck with & who not to. He should have been on Bittenfeld THROUGHOUT the series, but it wasn't till way later that he gets AROUND to him, because he was too busy getting rid of other people like Reunthal, by using Lang.
@DerOberstein Coming full-circle & back to the initial meeting, Kircheis warns Rheinhard against listening to or accepting Oberstein, but what did Rheinhard say to him? Till you go back to that point & even understand that, then you see that Rheinhard is trying to be slicker than he needs to be AND THAT PART IS HIS FAULT. He wants to use Oberstein as a shield to do his dirty-work & THAT PART, bit him in the ass! But the facts of the matter according to the writers themselves is this;
@DerOberstein Oberstein has NO PLACE TO GO, EXCEPT EITHER get INTO RHEINHARD'S Admiralty or face punishment for abandoning his post! Everyone within Rheinhard's admiralty have been there FAR LONGER than Oberstein & Oberstein is in an all or nothing situation. For THE WRITERS, TO PRETEND THAT, the long-time Subordinates are going to TOLERATE OBESTEIN MEDDLING, WHEN HE'S ON THE RUN FROM DERELICTION OF DUTY!? IS CHILDISHLY STUPID, BUT WAS COMMON, IN JAPANS MILITARY HISTORY.
Wow. :o That was a very long tirade but all you did was run away from the original argument. :) The fact remains that Reinhard consented to Oberstein's advice and therefore Reinhard is the one responsible for Kircheis' death. Evidently however much Oberstein's advice "bit" Reinhard, Reinhard thought Oberstein was just as important as Reuental and Mittermeyer in his conquest of the galaxy, so your negative personal opinion of Oberstein is pretty moot.
@DerOberstein This cartoon attempts to talk about concepts, that the writers themselves show they have no real idea about. The Reich was supposed to be German, but the people act like exactly what they are, Japanese. The FPA is supposed to be a democracy/American maybe, but the people act like what the writers know, Japanese society. No democratic volunteer army can continue on with the stupidity of the FPA CO's & think people will still sign up. Present day situation in America shows that.
Our contention over Oberstein aside, Japanese cultural centrism is a show that's supposed to depict cultures very different from the Japanese sounds like an interesting line of discussion. :) But I think the studio behind LoGH did a fairly admirable job in giving the Empire a 18th-19th century Germanic flavor, if only on a superficial level.
@DerOberstein That's all well & good on the surface, but you can't pretend to follow someone else's culture till it becomes an obstacle, like this situation right here with Oberstein. It isn't admirable when it's just a hollow plot device, it's annoying. And what culpability did Rheinhard have in Kircheis' death? None. Because Oberstein gave the no weapons in the hall-no exceptions order & if this were a GERMAN, society? Oberstein would have been killed for it. Thanks for pointing that out ^_^!
:o You're back with your same tired diatribe. You're also putting more words in my mouth. :) You can't prove convincingly that Oberstein is responsible for getting Kircheis killed without getting angry and rejecting any facts from the show that contradict you. Then you resorted to a very long irrelevant tirade to avoid the subject altogether. Emotional arguments aren't going to win this for you.
@DerOberstein Facts? From the show? You still haven't answered my question, who gave the order of no weapons allowed in the hall no exceptions? We already know it wasn't Rheinhard, because the facts of the show already demonstrated in the previous episodes that the show creators show the viewers whenever Rheinhard makes any key or critical decisions. It's not my fault that you are an Oberstein fan & I said that from the door. I already know that you could care less about what is said.
I actually answered this question at least three times now. You turn around and spout nonsense. Reinhard took Oberstein's advice, this lead to Kircheis getting killed due to an unforeseen freak incident, Reinhard evidently did not think Oberstein was responsible in any way as evident by the fact Reinhard kept showering Oberstein with promotions and increased influence. All you can do is weakly counter that the show is somehow "wrong." :D
@DerOberstein Hardly & that's why I said, you really shouldn't use Der Oberstein as a log on, when you have the same blindspots as he does & you live in the real world, not a cartoon where writers can just write you out of predicaments. Oberstein was given his promotion for the same reason Kircheis advised against him even being accepted, to be the Evil Shadow who can take the blame, Oberstein uses this tactic even in the video above. But Oberstein was never actually needed in the first place.
I don't understand how you can so diligently come back with emotional arguments over and over thinking they will make facts go away. Your explanation is, frankly, a stretch. If Oberstein had caused Kircheis' death, Reinhard wouldn't have kept Oberstein around for much longer. Actually, neither did anything wrong. Oberstein's advice was sound and Reinhard took it. Kircheis' death was a freak incident that no one foresaw.
@DerOberstein Of course you wouldn't understand, your log on name is directly tied to the person in question, no one in any actual field of debate or discussion would take you seriously when your very log-on name & page show you to be a biased fanboy who has chosen the wrong person to emulate or honor. Oberstein's advice was crap & the writers showed it even in the Westerland Massacre when the people had decided to approach Rheinhard then they got nuked thanks to Oberstein's fake ass advice.
@DerOberstein While geesehoward4life tries to engage you in a conversation, my responses are not emotional and use nothing but facts. I have just explained why Oberstein's advice was flawed and faulty. And the reason why Reinhard did not punish Oberstein for giving the order that got his best friend and better half killed is because the writers of the show pulled a deus ex machina and made it so.
The reason why Reinhard didn't punish Oberstein was because Reinhard took responsibility for the order to disarm Kircheis. We can even assume Reinhard signed the order himself. That is a perfectly logical assumption.
@Zarathustra799 Now who is using conjecture in a "perfectly logical assumption". What is fact, is that you are showing that you clearly are just as willing as Oberstein to sacrifice lives of others to satisfy your own ambitions and goals, then try to come up with convenient justification for why that course of action was supposedly "unavoidable". This is why my direct ancestors and people like them killed people like you. You are trying to prove your point to your detriment.
Oberstein though that giving Kircheis special treatment would antagonize the other admirals, in particular Mittermeyer and Reuental. Oberstein wanted to create harmony among Reinhard's admirals. You seem to think that Oberstein arranged Kircheis' death. Anyway, Oberstein jumped in front of Reinhard to protect him when that fellow tried to kill him. Oberstein was selfless.
@Zarathustra799 Actually? No it doesn't. Each one of us, has chosen a log-on name for whatever are reasons are, I would think that a log-on like Russodrezden probably means that the poster is Russian & connected to Drezden in some way. I don't know what a Zarathustra is, but it clearly has some meaning to you, but it says something about you. Clearly russodrezden is tired of talking, HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!
What nonsense is this? How does your ancestors' apparent willingness to kill me personally (a very bizarre argument) prove your ridiculous point? :o Very strange, indeed.
You're repeating the same stale argument used by Mr. Geese depending on conjecture of the supposed intentions of the writers to explain away a part of the plot that flatly contradicts the notion that Oberstein gave an order without Reinhard's knowledge that killed Kircheis.
@DerOberstein Oberstein gave orders & misused information throughout the series & did things without informing Rheinhard, such as lying to him about how much time he had before the nuclear attack. Letting Lang talk with Rubinsky. Your own words work against you & that's why you're not even worth taking seriously. I'd hoped that by posting all that I posted, it would draw in other people to discuss it, but? It only attracted two other people, which is disappointing to an extent.
Again, you're running away from my point. Despite your sound and fury, conjecture regarding parts of the plot you don't like doesn't prove your inference.
Where does this idea come from that in a 'german' society you will be killed for disobeying orders or acting with authorization? Show me some examples of that happening. To give an counter example: Guderian was dimissed in 1941 after he disobeyed Hitler's 'stand fast' orders. He wasn't killed which you think is typical in 'german' societies, I guess.
Oberstein would be executed for the fact that he caused the death of Kirches by forcing the issue of "no second", but at the same time failing to foresee and catch the assassination attempt which would have been easily foiled if Kirches had his gun on him. Those who take on the responsibility of dictating matters of life and death must also face that responsibility when they fail.
@Zarathustra799 So you compare Oberstein to Guderian? That's insulting to Guderian, who actually accomplished many things before being Chief of Staff at the end of WW2. Hitler didn't kill him because he held actual merit, what had Oberstein done to that point besides let 2 million people get nuked? And caused his lord's best Vassal & trusted confidant/adviser, to get killed, as he made his meaningless attempt to set himself up as the #2 man, that he so adamantly claimed, no one should be.
The people of the Empire united behind Reinhard after the nobles demonstrated their brutality by killing millions of people. This shortened the war and saved lives. We can thank Oberstein for that. ;-)
@Zarathustra799 I was really hoping you wouldn't be foolish enough to say that, but? Tell me something, couldn't they have stopped the attack & then broadcast the fact that the High Nobles were going to use nukes in the first place? And didn't the Westerland people get shown already talking about going over to Rheinhard before they were blown up? The writers showed you there that Oberstein's way of doing things, WAS WRONG. Then they blew all the people up for plot-device affect! HAHAHAHAHAHHAAH!
Stopping an attack wouldn't have the same emotional effect on the people as one that was carried through. The people couldn't help but feel indignant at the noble's ruthlessness. Oberstein had the right idea. ;-)
@Zarathustra799 The foundation on which you build your structure will dictate how long that structure will last and how it will fall. There is a reason that Soviet Union ended the way that it did. Oberstien's idea was shortsighted in the extreme. He sacrificed long term goals and ideals for a short term goal, that would have been accomplished regardless, though it would have taken marginally longer to do so.
At that time, Reinhard could still have lost the civil war. They had to do whatever they could to ensure victory. Westerland was an enormous propaganda victory. It was the suicide of the aristocracy.
@Zarathustra799 First, the aristocracy should have collapsed decades ago from the peasants switching sides to the Alliance because there they at lease have a chance to have a decent life. There is no nobility if they have no one to lord over. Second, I do not thing the populace needed to be shown how cruel the nobility was, having lived under their regime for hundreds of years. The result would have most assuredly been the same. Westerland expedited things, that is all.
Reinhard had to win the civil war as fast as possible. If the war were drawn out, that would have meant defeat in the end. Reinhard had to worry about the Alliance taking advantage of the situation by intervening at some point. The nobles would try to stir up resistance against reinhard. I think the citizens of the empire tolerated the aristocracy. The aristocracy gave them stability, if nothing else. If the people hated the nobles, why weren't there more uprisings?
@Zarathustra799 In real history, when there was no alternative and all was feudal aristocracy, people tolerated that kind of abuse in exchange for "stability". However when more and more nations overthrew their oppressive royalty, others quickly followed suit, simply because they saw a working alternative where they did not have to bow and scrape. With the alternative of the FPA, the Empire should have collapsed. The scenario they put together is not plausible in light of history
@Zarathustra799 Because people like Oberstein gave crappy-advice to use the people as propaganda tools, whenever the people finally saw openings & took them. Imperial peasants & commoners were cannon-fodder, which is why Rheinhard knew by the way the people had been treated, that he could starve the FPA out during their pointless invasion. The aristocracy had military muscle & they'd sown fear & dissension amongst the masses for nearly 500 years. Defiling a pic of the Kaiser got you killed.
@Zarathustra799 As for Reinhard having to win the war as soon as possible, fact is that what happened at Westerland is a publicity victory only because the writers of the show made it so. What it actually showed was that Reinhardt is no better then the aristocracy he was fighting against. In reality it should have cost him any chance at success, if not from the commoners turning their backs on him, then from his officers seeing him for a power grabbing opportunist.
@russodrezden And that!? Was why Kircheis went to Rheinhard & confronted him & made it clear prior that someone like Oberstein isn't who he needs or should want in his administration. All Oberstein knew & knows, were the old ways, even Yang Wenli realized that if Kircheis would have survived, then the war probably would have stopped & the two countries would have co-existed. Mariendolf also realized that too. And what place would there be for an Oberstein? I give'im credit for killing himself.
Expedited is quite right. If the Lippstadt rebellion had continued indefinitely, the situation in the Alliance could have improved and the Empire would be under threat of an Alliance invasion while Reinhard was tied down putting down the Lippstadt rebellion. That was the point of instigating a military putsch in the Alliance in the first place.
@DerOberstein Improved based on what facts? They let a man who was already a drunk deserter, again with the deserters, having more power & sway than they should or would. The FPA was too stupid to stop hounding Yang Wenli, their situation was never going to improve unless Yang took over & he of course was too saintly written to do that, what a coincidence! The more this cartoon is talked about, the less & less sense it makes.
@DerOberstein You mean the FDA that just had it's entire fleet wiped out? More to the point, you are ignoring what I said regarding the true consequences of the Westerland destruction for Reinhard. As for the Lippstadt rebels, that pathetic gathering of fools could not have held out for any length of time, no matter what the writers of the show try to make you believe. They were already shown to be incompetent enough that they will give opposition a victory, superior position aside
@DerOberstein Oberstein was an unnecessary plot-device in the story, just like Kircheis death was turned into a plot device. The moment this begins to be taken seriously the entire series falls apart & makes no sense except for to say that no matter what, humans will find a way to fight each other over something, really? You need all those episodes for that? No.
I still don't understand how your negative opinion of parts of the show that contradict your inference proves your inference to be correct. Frankly, your argumentation suffers from cognitive dissonance. If the show's plot didn't live up to you standards, that's one thing. But that doesn't change the facts of the show's plot as the show presented them.
@DerOberstein Do you try to talk down to people when they are right in front of you or are you as quiet as a church mouse when directly approached? I prefer speaking directly to a person, not this rather cowardly impersonal way of running around & hiding & being constrained by 500 character limits.
Let's just say I have little patience for people who make ludicrous emotionally laden arguments and then refuse to address my own argument when I address theirs. :)
@Zarathustra799 Did the writers not show the fact that the Westerland People were already talking about going over to Rheinhard & serving him, yes. That's a fact. Why did they want to do that, because of his reputation & the way he'd carried himself & handled himself with Kircheis as his shadow. Oberstein steps in? Instant ends justify the means & you are already shown that prior to Oberstein's right ideas, people saw Rheinhard as a man to follow & respect because he didn't do things like that.
That's not relevant to the point Zarathustra made. He's stating that Westerland contributed to destroying the morale of the war potential of the Lippstadt rebels. This gave Reinhard's faction as advantage in infiltrating and securing Geiersberg which could have held out indefinitely.
Anyway, I was just picking at your silly idea that in 'german societies' military commanders are killed for disobeying orders. I have never heard of that. That sort of thing would happen in the Soviet Union, though. :-)
@Zarathustra799 As for historical examples, look at any revolution and see a pile of corpses of officers/people in charge who thought they could manipulate the situation for their own ends, and found out that the people doing the fighting are not too keen on being used by those on their own side, since they are revolting against those who where using them in the first place. I personally like the examples of the October Revolution and the following civil war in Russia.
I would disagree here. I think people would voluntarily enlist they people believed they were defending their homeland from an oppressive empire that wants to enslave them. The FPA was in a struggle for survival. If the citizens of the FPA were patriotic enough, they would enlist even if it meant certain death. The situations of the FPA and America today are entirely different.
@Zarathustra799 In the first episode, the level of stupidity displayed by the FPA commanders eventually turns out to be the running joke of the entire series until most of the FPA commanders are dead & the FPA military capacity destroyed by fools like Fork & that fat guy who took naps at Iserlohn Fortress. In an ACTUAL democratic society, at some point word gets back to the public FROM THE SOLDIERS ON LEAVE, our military CO's, couldn't lead ants to a picnic. Then what happens next?
@Zarathustra799 How is the situation in the USA today different from the FPA? The fact that the FPA was in the struggle to survive would cause the common soldiery and lower ranking to take drastic and violent action to stop the brass from losing the war. Historical examples: World War I where Russian soldiery killed off their incompetent officers and accepted temporary loss of territory in order to restructure things at home. Vietnam war is a good example.
@Zarathustra799 How is the situation in the USA today different from the FPA? The fact that the FPA was in the struggle to survive would cause the common soldiery and lower ranking to take drastic and violent action to stop the brass from losing the war. Historical examples: World War I where Russian soldiery killed off their incompetent officers and accepted temporary loss of territory in order to restructure things at home. Vietnam war is a good example.
@DerOberstein And that was where it became a problem watching this show. Bittenfeld & the others, were ALREADY THERE, Oberstein WAS NOT. NONE OF THEM, DITCHED AND RAN BECAUSE SOMEONE WOULDN'T LISTEN, OBERSTEIN DID! But then the WRITERS, EXPECT THE VIEWERS TO JUST DISMISS THIS? This is a critical error in what they put together, nobody who has fought on the battlefield is going to TOLERATE Oberstein coming in & then changing things around, when? Who are you again? When did you get here? Why?
@geesehoward4life And that's what messes the entire series up in a number of other places too. The writers hammer out definitive persona's, but then when they know that this character SHOULD DO THIS OR THAT, out of the blue, they don't! And they turn it into a plot device where, if you don't care or don't see it, fine. If you do? Then it ruins it. When Oberstein starts arguing about no #2, Rheinhard has been BRUTALLY HONEST with EVERYONE ELSE, but mysteriously?
@DerOberstein He doesn't tell Oberstein "Where was all of this insistence at when you were a staff officer at Iserlohn Fortress?" He tells Oberstein that Kircheis is a part of him, but then CONVENIENTLY DOESN'T REMIND HIM THAT "You know, you keep talking, I'll discharge you from my admiralty, then what happens next? What happens to you next?" He had spoken to anyone else PRIOR, IN THE SAME FACTUAL MANNERISMS! But now all of a sudden, no. No, not this time. HAHHAHAHAH! PLEASE! TO A DESERTER!?
@DerOberstein Who is going to tolerate a DESERTER, trying to push their ADVICE? About a long-time best friend & VASSAL, who has produced &/or contributed with their good council & support, to much of the success that Oberstein is now trying to hide behind? And then screw-around with? If they hadn't already established Rheinhard's character, then this can be overlooked. If Oberstein wasn't a deserter, then it still might be able to be looked past. But they got too greedy to build up a moment.
@DerOberstein And then too many factors are against Oberstein having any real weight to try a move like what he was "suggesting". BUT!? When you read up on Japanese military history or even the way that their societal set-up is, this kind of cornball crap, happens way too much. A fool comes along, gets given a position & then everyone kowtows solely because he was given a higher rank, instead of looking at the reality of the situation & whether or not what is being done, has real merit.
"except the lame excuse that it was just dropped by the writers & glossed over."
lol, this confirms how logically bankrupt you are. Where have I used any such excuses? I presented a logical and comprehensible argument. You, OTOH, haven't. Your entire argument hinges on you interpretation of one line in the script and then rejecting the fact that Oberstein was highly promoted after Kircheis' death. Again, you argue based on feelings, not facts.
When the context of Oberstein's promotion and increased prestige in the Imperial Fleet is considered, it makes the argument that Reinhard consented to Oberstein's advice far more coherent than your own position. Reinhard evidently didn't hold Oberstein responsible for Kircheis' death in any way, form, or fashion. Therefore it is plainly clear that "All right, drop it" was Reinhard giving his consent to Oberstein, deciding Kircheis' (unforeseen) fate himself.
Assuming Reinhard really was the charismatic natural-born leader the show depicts him as, then Reinhard would most certainly NOT have thrown a hissy fit and hold one of his loyal retainers responsible for an unforeseen outcome caused by a decision Reinhard HIMSELF made. As a man who took upon himself the responsibility of taking charge over the whole of the Empire, Reinhard did what he naturally should have done. He took responsibility for his OWN decisions.
Oberstein was only telling it how it is. ;) Bittenfeld most certainly is the most incompetent admiral in the Imperial Fleet considering his debacle at Amlitzer that allowed Yang Wenli to escape and also how he managed to get Fahrenheit killed by ignoring Reinhard's explicit order to wait for the main body of the Imperial Fleet at the Iserlohn Corridor. It's actually a wonder why Bittenfeld was promoted so much when other admirals who screw up, like Turneisen, get punished.
@Grimgerde What? By the time Bittenfeld got Yang'd at Amlitzer, he had already crushed 2 Alliance fleets (something that none of the other Admirals had done in that battle), not to mention Yang would have owned anyone else at Amlitzer. lol@getting Fahrenheit killed. More like he got himself killed. Bittenfeld wasn't Reuenthal or Mittermeyer tier, but he definitely was one of the most talented Admirals Reinhard had, and Reinhard KNEW it.
Firstly, Ulanfu had a very serious disadvantage against Bittenfeld at Amlitzer thanks to the "scorched earth" policy implemented by Reinhard (likely thanks to Oberstein's advice). Even with this disadvantage, a significant portion of Ulanfu's fleet managed to successfully break out and retreat through Bittenfeld's battle line; who's to say how the battle would have transpired if both commanders were on equal footing.
Secondly, although Bittenfeld did manage to destroy Appleton, it was entirely Bittenfeld's fault that Yang Wenli was able to annihilate him. Bittenfeld changed the position of his fleet prematurely, making himself extremely vulnerable, and Yang Wenli simply took advantage of it. No special tricks were used. It was directly Bittenfeld's fault and Yang Wenli was later able to escape to the Iserlohn Corridor.
Thirdly, when Bittenfeld disobeyed Reinhard's order to wait for the main body of the Imperial Fleet before attacking Iserlohn, Fahrenheit was obligated as a fellow soldier of the Imperial Fleet to not just save Bittenfeld but also the soldiers under Bittenfeld's command whom Bittenfeld foolishly threw at the mercy of Yang Wenli. It was because of Fahrenheit's sacrifice that Bittenfeld survived and Bittenfeld acknowledged his duplicity in Fahrenheit's death before the Kaiser himself.
At-any-rate, defeating any Alliance admirals one-on-one apart from Yang Wenli and Bucock is nothing to brag about. I think to find an equal match in the Empire for admirals such as Paeta, Borodin, and Appleton, you'd have to put up someone like Staaden or Erlache.
@Grimgerde I guess it's because of his fierce loyalty and how much useful his incompetence can be at times. No other admiral would simply charge and rush into the enemy forces the way he does it -- but at times that can be useful. As long as Reinhard is able to restrain him, he's a brilliant ace in the hole.
You can't blame Oberstein for the insubordination of the people Reinhard placed under Oberstein's command. Reinhard knew that Bittenfeld was hostile to Oberstein so it was ultimately his mistake.
Poor Oberstein :(
roothands 1 month ago
What on Earth is going on in this comments section?
SiorafasNaCillini 2 months ago
@SiorafasNaCillini
I think Bittenfeld "exploded" in the comments section. ;)
DerOberstein 2 months ago 3
Strange. All of my comments were flagged as spam. :o
DerOberstein 2 months ago
Should have given him a smack, the bitch deserved it. At any rate Oberstein was clearly trolling him because he was an obstacle at the time that he wanted to get rid of. Also say what you want about Bitten, but after all he did kill off like 4-5 of the Alliance's best admirals. If he made any mistakes, the responsibility lies with the one who assigned him to do tasks he wasn't appropriate for.
Veerwhil 3 months ago
Comment removed
DerOberstein 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Veerwhil
Oberstein doesn't troll; he's always dead serious. :) Appleton or Ulanfu don't really qualify as among the FPA's best admirals. They were so unimportant that we don't even know what their first names were. Bittenfeld was far more efficient at getting some of the Empire's better talent killed (Fahrenheit). But I do agree that it is ultimately Reinhard's fault; he shouldn't have promoted Bittenfeld as much as he did in the first place.
DerOberstein 3 months ago
@DerOberstein
Similarly, Lennenkanpt's failure to maintain order in the FPA and Reuental's rebellion were also Reinhard's fault. Oberstein foresaw and advised Reinhard against both of these appointments. Sadly, the blonde brat was a very stubborn fellow.
DerOberstein 3 months ago
@DerOberstein While Bittenfeld did do recklessly stupid things from time-to-time, it needs to be remembered that Oberstein was only able to serve Rheinhard AFTER he made sure to speak with him ALONE, without Kircheis. And he knew that he had to speak to him alone because Kircheis would not have sat there & let Oberstein point out how much faster he can reach his goals, by doing dirt in the manner that Oberstein ultimately did. It is Oberstein's policy of no #2 that gets Kircheis killed.
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
What's your point? Reinhard appointed Oberstein as an adviser. It was Oberstein's JOB to give Reinhard the advice Oberstein thought was most productive for achieving Reinhard's goals. Reinhard was the one who agreed to treat Kircheis the same as the other admirals so the responsibility for indirectly creating a situation where Kircheis might die was and will always will be his, not Oberstein's.
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@DerOberstein I know you're not throwing an attitude at me when my post speaks for itself. Who kept pestering Rheinhard about no #2 & treat Kircheis like the rest of your commanders? Job you say? Oberstein was a petty fool who only excelled because of the nature of "storytelling" by the creators of this series. The reality is that IF this was based on any REALITY? Rheinhard would have put a beam thru his head right after he recovered his senses, because Kircheis warned him about Oberstein.
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
You have a very bizarre sense of "reality," but that's not really relevant. Oberstein performed the duties assigned to him. Reinhard recruited Oberstein because Oberstein had a capability to present things as they are logically without silly passions to cloud his judgment. His reasoning behind objective to Reinhard's policy of favoritism was sound; even Reinhard was able to set aside his personal feelings and see Oberstein's argument for its merits.
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@DerOberstein
objecting to^ :)
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@DerOberstein The FACTS are exactly as I posted on your page. Nowhere in episode 25 or 26, does Rheinhard EVER give the order to block any & all weapons from the hall with no exceptions & I was hoping you would talk about "how Rheinhard was" & "how the show was" because within that framework you hang yourself. When he made decisions the viewer is shown HE MADE THAT DECISION, the no weapons no exceptions order, is NEVER SHOWN TO COME FROM HIM, so who else can give THAT ORDER? ONLY. OBERSTEIN.
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
lol. It's evident that you are a person much like Bittenfeld: lots of passion but little grasp of logic. You completely ignore the context of what transpired. "All right, drop it" can arguably be interpreted two ways so it may not be enough alone to assign blame. However, considering that Oberstein was never punished and in fact was rewarded with a promotion to High Admiral after the Lippstadt rebellion is telling.
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@DerOberstein What is evident, is that you have never had to be anywhere near, anything like this in real life. All right drop it, means, all right drop it. You'll have to do better than that Oberstein-wanna-be, for that kind of childishness to work on me. You yourself already pointed out that Rheinhard takes responsibility for his own actions & the show, SHOWS, when he does things like give orders or ideas, win or lose. The no weapons order is NEVER SHOWN to come from Rheinhard. Period.
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
Oberstein's leap in status after the Lippstadt rebellion make very little sense in the context ofr your argument that OBERSTEIN KILLED KIRCHEIS!!!!. So how do you reconcile this fact with your thesis? You make this bizarre argument that the writers are "wrong" and that Oberstein should be dead. A fairly illogical position based more on your own negative personal feelings toward Oberstein than on facts.
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@DerOberstein Oberstein was a PLOT-DEVICE, JUST LIKE KIRCHEIS DEATH, WAS A PLOT-DEVICE, but what isn't a plot-device? Your page. And this is why I'm letting you know, I'm well-aware by what you have on your page, you will find any "justification" to continue your hero-worship or whatever of Oberstein, like I said before. It works IN A CARTOON, not in the real world. Oberstein's personality would get him murdered QUICKLY, in the real world. LOGH's is an OK series, when talked about seriously.
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
Your angry emotionalism does not help your case. I approached the issue of Kircheis' death by asking "upon whom should the blame fall?" and then I use data to find the most logical answer. You approach Kircheis death by simply screaming OBERSTEIN DID IT!!! and then let this bias cloud how you look at the data.
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@DerOberstein What data have you put forward? You are an empty circle-talker, the proof of who was responsible is shown in episode 25 & 26 & in a typical Japanimation moment, in an attempt to make things seem "complex" or "emotional", no HONEST CONVERSATION TAKES PLACE BETWEEN THE CHARACTERS, where the show, shows, that it was written by Japanese writers. This is where stomaching LOGH becomes tiresome if you have any actual understanding of people & what the writers are trying to get across.
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
What have I put forward? I put forward a very comprehensible and logical interpretation of the events surrounding the death of Kircheis. All you have done is spewed vitriol and rejected any fact from the show that contradicts your silly point. :)
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@DerOberstein I didn't know that if you post too many comments on youtube, it then asks you to verify yourself? Really? That's disappointing, but predictable for today's world. As for everything else, where is the episode where Rheinhard gave the order for no weapons no exceptions & that Kircheis is included?
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
This is no better illustrated than by you arguing the writers are somehow "wrong" and that "reality" doesn't work in some way you don't agree with. You simply took data that CONTRADICTS your argument and dismissed it. That is not very logical argumentation. :)
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@DerOberstein If this was written correctly, then instead of sitting at the table in shock after Kircheis death, there would have been AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN an investigation into WHY DIDN'T HE HAVE HIS FIREARM? This simple statement on my part is NEVER DIRECTLY APPROACHED throughout the ENTIRE SERIES. Because if it is? Then what happens to EVERYONE INVOLVED. And? I hope you haven't fallen for me using caps, as a means of me being "emotional". That would be too easy to trick you with, Oberstein Jr
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
Nonsense. Why should they launch an investigation to explain something Reinhard already knew? Reinhard consented to Oberstein's objection to Reinhard's practice of favoritism, this resulted in Kircheis getting killed in an unfortunate freak incident, and Reinhard accepted what little responsibility he had for Kircheis' death because it was ultimately Reinhard to agreed to Oberstein's objections in the first place. It's actually pretty straight forward.
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@DerOberstein Where is the episode that this takes place at where Rheinhard consented to Oberstein's objections? And what was said to show that? You're not going to find any such episode because I already wasted my time checking for it this morning & this is the reason why you haven't posted any actual direct quotes or scenes from the actual show. Because you don't have any direct scenes or quotes to go by, except the lame excuse that it was just dropped by the writers & glossed over.
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
@geesehoward4life
You're basically asking me to repeat myself now. "Alright, drop it" could easily be interpreted as Reinhard consenting to Oberstein and telling him to leave him alone about it. Admittedly, this interpretation isn't enough alone, so when combined with the fact that Oberstein was magnanimously rewarded by Reinhard after the Lippstadt rebellion, it's plainly obvious Reinhard didn't think Oberstein was to blame for it.
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@DerOberstein All right drop it, means shut up. And that is actually the way that people like Oberstein need to be talked to, because they already think they're smarter than they are. Oberstein was then rewarded for two reasons, the first one, which is most important,is because the writers made it that way. This first PROBLEM, is the real reason why most of my friends don't bother watching LOGH. Kircheis was a long-time subordinate/friend of Rheinhard, what place does a deserter have talking?
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@DerOberstein And this is why I said, in a cartoon, sure this can be forced to work, in reality? No. We are shown in LOGH that Oberstein saw thru the FPA plot when at his post, he then makes two detached attempts to speak-up, then promptly shuts up. He didn't fiercely fight for or argue over why they should listen to him, until he was tossed in the brig for insubordination. One reason being was because he knew these men, WOULD KILL HIM. PERIOD. Even for his passionless advisories. So then what?
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
Again, that is only YOUR inference of that one line. By itself it doesn't prove anything. The rest of you argument is this absurd claim that the writers (and by extension the guy who wrote the original LoGH novels) are "incorrect." This also doesn't prove anything apart from your own personal bias. Oberstein's continued promotion and increase in prestige places things in a very comprehensible context that you dislike, so you blatantly choose to ignore it.
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@DerOberstein He then ABANDONS HIS POST & ESCAPES? HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA! He then promptly runs to Rheinhard, but first decides to talk to Kircheis. BOTH OF THEM KNOW THEY ARE ENEMIES, I don't care how POLITE THEY WERE about. Oberstein is the evil version of Kircheis, am I supposed to be impressed by that? Really? Kircheis doesn't like him & for good reason. Prior to Oberstein, Kircheis had always been the calming influence & anchor for Rheinhard, this is shown repeatedly. Oberstein already knew....
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life There was no way that he would be able to get a spot with Rheinhard if Kircheis is around or be able to KEEP A SPOT if he stays. While YOU would like to forget that Oberstein abandoned his post, for whatever the reason he did, the fact is still that he FLED! He HAD TO GET WITH RHEINHARD, OR HE WAS FACING MILITARY PUNISHMENT FOR FLEEING HIS POST! The only person powerful enough to PROTECT HIM, WAS RHEINHARD. So he has too many things other than good-intent going on from the door
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
Again, what does any of this nonsense have to do with who is responsible for Kircheis' death? You keep rambling irrationally about nothing while dodging the issue at hand. If you can't counter my argument then save face and concede. You're just making ridiculous emotional appeals now.
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
Yes, I know you don't like Oberstein. That's why you can't approach the question of who should be blamed for Kircheis' death with any sense of logic and reason. Emotionalism and passion do nothing to help your case. :) I ask a question and seek facts. You make a highly biased and irrational statement and dismiss any facts that contradict it. In a way, you are Bittenfeld. :D
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@DerOberstein It is shown repeatedly throughout the series, even before Kircheis death, that Rheinhard could be manipulated or pushed in certain ways & it is also shown that Oberstein knows how to do things like this, however? When Oberstein finally decides to talk to Rheinhard, he asks to do so without Kircheis, all this is, is a weak attempt by Oberstein to discern what their relationship is & especially whether or not Kircheis is blindly obedient to Rheinhard. Kircheis leaves, as he was told
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
Oh, so you concede that Reinhard agreed to Oberstein's advice but was "manipulated"? Sorry, but while I am glad you're starting to reconcile with facts, that is just a weak attempt at passing the blame. Reinhard is the boss. Reinhard repeatedly insists he won't take orders from anyone. Reinhard took Oberstein advice and Reinhard takes the responsibility for it. That's how a chain of command works. The Imperial Fleet isn't a group of undisciplined thugs.
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@DerOberstein The moment that he left that room & let Rheinhard talk to Oberstein alone, he signed his own death warrant. Oberstein talks a good game, but doesn't back it up if he knows the person he's dealing with, will cut the pretense & just kill him or beat him up. All that talk in the above video? About whose army is it, blah-blah blah? Then where was this at when his bitch-ass was running away from Iserlohn? Where was his COLD LOGIC OF FACTS, talking to the commanders of the fort then?
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@DerOberstein He didn't speak up THEN & SAY THE THINGS HE DID TO BITTENFELD, because those commanders in that fort at that time, would have had his ass on a platter for trying to talk snide to them like that. Oberstein knows, for the most part, who to fuck with & who not to. He should have been on Bittenfeld THROUGHOUT the series, but it wasn't till way later that he gets AROUND to him, because he was too busy getting rid of other people like Reunthal, by using Lang.
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@DerOberstein Coming full-circle & back to the initial meeting, Kircheis warns Rheinhard against listening to or accepting Oberstein, but what did Rheinhard say to him? Till you go back to that point & even understand that, then you see that Rheinhard is trying to be slicker than he needs to be AND THAT PART IS HIS FAULT. He wants to use Oberstein as a shield to do his dirty-work & THAT PART, bit him in the ass! But the facts of the matter according to the writers themselves is this;
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@DerOberstein Oberstein has NO PLACE TO GO, EXCEPT EITHER get INTO RHEINHARD'S Admiralty or face punishment for abandoning his post! Everyone within Rheinhard's admiralty have been there FAR LONGER than Oberstein & Oberstein is in an all or nothing situation. For THE WRITERS, TO PRETEND THAT, the long-time Subordinates are going to TOLERATE OBESTEIN MEDDLING, WHEN HE'S ON THE RUN FROM DERELICTION OF DUTY!? IS CHILDISHLY STUPID, BUT WAS COMMON, IN JAPANS MILITARY HISTORY.
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
Wow. :o That was a very long tirade but all you did was run away from the original argument. :) The fact remains that Reinhard consented to Oberstein's advice and therefore Reinhard is the one responsible for Kircheis' death. Evidently however much Oberstein's advice "bit" Reinhard, Reinhard thought Oberstein was just as important as Reuental and Mittermeyer in his conquest of the galaxy, so your negative personal opinion of Oberstein is pretty moot.
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@DerOberstein This cartoon attempts to talk about concepts, that the writers themselves show they have no real idea about. The Reich was supposed to be German, but the people act like exactly what they are, Japanese. The FPA is supposed to be a democracy/American maybe, but the people act like what the writers know, Japanese society. No democratic volunteer army can continue on with the stupidity of the FPA CO's & think people will still sign up. Present day situation in America shows that.
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
Our contention over Oberstein aside, Japanese cultural centrism is a show that's supposed to depict cultures very different from the Japanese sounds like an interesting line of discussion. :) But I think the studio behind LoGH did a fairly admirable job in giving the Empire a 18th-19th century Germanic flavor, if only on a superficial level.
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@DerOberstein That's all well & good on the surface, but you can't pretend to follow someone else's culture till it becomes an obstacle, like this situation right here with Oberstein. It isn't admirable when it's just a hollow plot device, it's annoying. And what culpability did Rheinhard have in Kircheis' death? None. Because Oberstein gave the no weapons in the hall-no exceptions order & if this were a GERMAN, society? Oberstein would have been killed for it. Thanks for pointing that out ^_^!
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
:o You're back with your same tired diatribe. You're also putting more words in my mouth. :) You can't prove convincingly that Oberstein is responsible for getting Kircheis killed without getting angry and rejecting any facts from the show that contradict you. Then you resorted to a very long irrelevant tirade to avoid the subject altogether. Emotional arguments aren't going to win this for you.
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@DerOberstein Facts? From the show? You still haven't answered my question, who gave the order of no weapons allowed in the hall no exceptions? We already know it wasn't Rheinhard, because the facts of the show already demonstrated in the previous episodes that the show creators show the viewers whenever Rheinhard makes any key or critical decisions. It's not my fault that you are an Oberstein fan & I said that from the door. I already know that you could care less about what is said.
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
I actually answered this question at least three times now. You turn around and spout nonsense. Reinhard took Oberstein's advice, this lead to Kircheis getting killed due to an unforeseen freak incident, Reinhard evidently did not think Oberstein was responsible in any way as evident by the fact Reinhard kept showering Oberstein with promotions and increased influence. All you can do is weakly counter that the show is somehow "wrong." :D
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@DerOberstein Hardly & that's why I said, you really shouldn't use Der Oberstein as a log on, when you have the same blindspots as he does & you live in the real world, not a cartoon where writers can just write you out of predicaments. Oberstein was given his promotion for the same reason Kircheis advised against him even being accepted, to be the Evil Shadow who can take the blame, Oberstein uses this tactic even in the video above. But Oberstein was never actually needed in the first place.
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
I don't understand how you can so diligently come back with emotional arguments over and over thinking they will make facts go away. Your explanation is, frankly, a stretch. If Oberstein had caused Kircheis' death, Reinhard wouldn't have kept Oberstein around for much longer. Actually, neither did anything wrong. Oberstein's advice was sound and Reinhard took it. Kircheis' death was a freak incident that no one foresaw.
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@DerOberstein Of course you wouldn't understand, your log on name is directly tied to the person in question, no one in any actual field of debate or discussion would take you seriously when your very log-on name & page show you to be a biased fanboy who has chosen the wrong person to emulate or honor. Oberstein's advice was crap & the writers showed it even in the Westerland Massacre when the people had decided to approach Rheinhard then they got nuked thanks to Oberstein's fake ass advice.
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@DerOberstein While geesehoward4life tries to engage you in a conversation, my responses are not emotional and use nothing but facts. I have just explained why Oberstein's advice was flawed and faulty. And the reason why Reinhard did not punish Oberstein for giving the order that got his best friend and better half killed is because the writers of the show pulled a deus ex machina and made it so.
russodrezden 2 months ago
@russodrezden
The reason why Reinhard didn't punish Oberstein was because Reinhard took responsibility for the order to disarm Kircheis. We can even assume Reinhard signed the order himself. That is a perfectly logical assumption.
Zarathustra799 2 months ago
@Zarathustra799 Now who is using conjecture in a "perfectly logical assumption". What is fact, is that you are showing that you clearly are just as willing as Oberstein to sacrifice lives of others to satisfy your own ambitions and goals, then try to come up with convenient justification for why that course of action was supposedly "unavoidable". This is why my direct ancestors and people like them killed people like you. You are trying to prove your point to your detriment.
russodrezden 2 months ago
@russodrezden
Oberstein though that giving Kircheis special treatment would antagonize the other admirals, in particular Mittermeyer and Reuental. Oberstein wanted to create harmony among Reinhard's admirals. You seem to think that Oberstein arranged Kircheis' death. Anyway, Oberstein jumped in front of Reinhard to protect him when that fellow tried to kill him. Oberstein was selfless.
Zarathustra799 2 months ago
@russodrezden
Also, your comment about your immediate ancestors trying to kill people 'like me' just sounds ridiculous.
Zarathustra799 2 months ago
@Zarathustra799
I assumed he misclicked and was talking to me. :) I am "Oberstein Jr" afterall. :D
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@Zarathustra799 Actually? No it doesn't. Each one of us, has chosen a log-on name for whatever are reasons are, I would think that a log-on like Russodrezden probably means that the poster is Russian & connected to Drezden in some way. I don't know what a Zarathustra is, but it clearly has some meaning to you, but it says something about you. Clearly russodrezden is tired of talking, HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@russodrezden
What nonsense is this? How does your ancestors' apparent willingness to kill me personally (a very bizarre argument) prove your ridiculous point? :o Very strange, indeed.
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@russodrezden
You're repeating the same stale argument used by Mr. Geese depending on conjecture of the supposed intentions of the writers to explain away a part of the plot that flatly contradicts the notion that Oberstein gave an order without Reinhard's knowledge that killed Kircheis.
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@DerOberstein Oberstein gave orders & misused information throughout the series & did things without informing Rheinhard, such as lying to him about how much time he had before the nuclear attack. Letting Lang talk with Rubinsky. Your own words work against you & that's why you're not even worth taking seriously. I'd hoped that by posting all that I posted, it would draw in other people to discuss it, but? It only attracted two other people, which is disappointing to an extent.
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
Again, you're running away from my point. Despite your sound and fury, conjecture regarding parts of the plot you don't like doesn't prove your inference.
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
Where does this idea come from that in a 'german' society you will be killed for disobeying orders or acting with authorization? Show me some examples of that happening. To give an counter example: Guderian was dimissed in 1941 after he disobeyed Hitler's 'stand fast' orders. He wasn't killed which you think is typical in 'german' societies, I guess.
Zarathustra799 2 months ago
@Zarathustra799
^acting without authorization. bleh.
Zarathustra799 2 months ago
@Zarathustra799
Good point. :)
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@Zarathustra799
Oberstein would be executed for the fact that he caused the death of Kirches by forcing the issue of "no second", but at the same time failing to foresee and catch the assassination attempt which would have been easily foiled if Kirches had his gun on him. Those who take on the responsibility of dictating matters of life and death must also face that responsibility when they fail.
russodrezden 2 months ago
@Zarathustra799 So you compare Oberstein to Guderian? That's insulting to Guderian, who actually accomplished many things before being Chief of Staff at the end of WW2. Hitler didn't kill him because he held actual merit, what had Oberstein done to that point besides let 2 million people get nuked? And caused his lord's best Vassal & trusted confidant/adviser, to get killed, as he made his meaningless attempt to set himself up as the #2 man, that he so adamantly claimed, no one should be.
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
The people of the Empire united behind Reinhard after the nobles demonstrated their brutality by killing millions of people. This shortened the war and saved lives. We can thank Oberstein for that. ;-)
Zarathustra799 2 months ago
@Zarathustra799 I was really hoping you wouldn't be foolish enough to say that, but? Tell me something, couldn't they have stopped the attack & then broadcast the fact that the High Nobles were going to use nukes in the first place? And didn't the Westerland people get shown already talking about going over to Rheinhard before they were blown up? The writers showed you there that Oberstein's way of doing things, WAS WRONG. Then they blew all the people up for plot-device affect! HAHAHAHAHAHHAAH!
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
Stopping an attack wouldn't have the same emotional effect on the people as one that was carried through. The people couldn't help but feel indignant at the noble's ruthlessness. Oberstein had the right idea. ;-)
Zarathustra799 2 months ago
@Zarathustra799 The foundation on which you build your structure will dictate how long that structure will last and how it will fall. There is a reason that Soviet Union ended the way that it did. Oberstien's idea was shortsighted in the extreme. He sacrificed long term goals and ideals for a short term goal, that would have been accomplished regardless, though it would have taken marginally longer to do so.
russodrezden 2 months ago
@russodrezden
At that time, Reinhard could still have lost the civil war. They had to do whatever they could to ensure victory. Westerland was an enormous propaganda victory. It was the suicide of the aristocracy.
Zarathustra799 2 months ago
@Zarathustra799 First, the aristocracy should have collapsed decades ago from the peasants switching sides to the Alliance because there they at lease have a chance to have a decent life. There is no nobility if they have no one to lord over. Second, I do not thing the populace needed to be shown how cruel the nobility was, having lived under their regime for hundreds of years. The result would have most assuredly been the same. Westerland expedited things, that is all.
russodrezden 2 months ago
@russodrezden
Reinhard had to win the civil war as fast as possible. If the war were drawn out, that would have meant defeat in the end. Reinhard had to worry about the Alliance taking advantage of the situation by intervening at some point. The nobles would try to stir up resistance against reinhard. I think the citizens of the empire tolerated the aristocracy. The aristocracy gave them stability, if nothing else. If the people hated the nobles, why weren't there more uprisings?
Zarathustra799 2 months ago
@Zarathustra799 In real history, when there was no alternative and all was feudal aristocracy, people tolerated that kind of abuse in exchange for "stability". However when more and more nations overthrew their oppressive royalty, others quickly followed suit, simply because they saw a working alternative where they did not have to bow and scrape. With the alternative of the FPA, the Empire should have collapsed. The scenario they put together is not plausible in light of history
russodrezden 2 months ago
@Zarathustra799 Because people like Oberstein gave crappy-advice to use the people as propaganda tools, whenever the people finally saw openings & took them. Imperial peasants & commoners were cannon-fodder, which is why Rheinhard knew by the way the people had been treated, that he could starve the FPA out during their pointless invasion. The aristocracy had military muscle & they'd sown fear & dissension amongst the masses for nearly 500 years. Defiling a pic of the Kaiser got you killed.
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@Zarathustra799 As for Reinhard having to win the war as soon as possible, fact is that what happened at Westerland is a publicity victory only because the writers of the show made it so. What it actually showed was that Reinhardt is no better then the aristocracy he was fighting against. In reality it should have cost him any chance at success, if not from the commoners turning their backs on him, then from his officers seeing him for a power grabbing opportunist.
russodrezden 2 months ago
@russodrezden And that!? Was why Kircheis went to Rheinhard & confronted him & made it clear prior that someone like Oberstein isn't who he needs or should want in his administration. All Oberstein knew & knows, were the old ways, even Yang Wenli realized that if Kircheis would have survived, then the war probably would have stopped & the two countries would have co-existed. Mariendolf also realized that too. And what place would there be for an Oberstein? I give'im credit for killing himself.
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@russodrezden
Expedited is quite right. If the Lippstadt rebellion had continued indefinitely, the situation in the Alliance could have improved and the Empire would be under threat of an Alliance invasion while Reinhard was tied down putting down the Lippstadt rebellion. That was the point of instigating a military putsch in the Alliance in the first place.
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@DerOberstein Improved based on what facts? They let a man who was already a drunk deserter, again with the deserters, having more power & sway than they should or would. The FPA was too stupid to stop hounding Yang Wenli, their situation was never going to improve unless Yang took over & he of course was too saintly written to do that, what a coincidence! The more this cartoon is talked about, the less & less sense it makes.
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@DerOberstein You mean the FDA that just had it's entire fleet wiped out? More to the point, you are ignoring what I said regarding the true consequences of the Westerland destruction for Reinhard. As for the Lippstadt rebels, that pathetic gathering of fools could not have held out for any length of time, no matter what the writers of the show try to make you believe. They were already shown to be incompetent enough that they will give opposition a victory, superior position aside
russodrezden 2 months ago
@DerOberstein Oberstein was an unnecessary plot-device in the story, just like Kircheis death was turned into a plot device. The moment this begins to be taken seriously the entire series falls apart & makes no sense except for to say that no matter what, humans will find a way to fight each other over something, really? You need all those episodes for that? No.
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
I still don't understand how your negative opinion of parts of the show that contradict your inference proves your inference to be correct. Frankly, your argumentation suffers from cognitive dissonance. If the show's plot didn't live up to you standards, that's one thing. But that doesn't change the facts of the show's plot as the show presented them.
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@DerOberstein Do you try to talk down to people when they are right in front of you or are you as quiet as a church mouse when directly approached? I prefer speaking directly to a person, not this rather cowardly impersonal way of running around & hiding & being constrained by 500 character limits.
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
Let's just say I have little patience for people who make ludicrous emotionally laden arguments and then refuse to address my own argument when I address theirs. :)
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@DerOberstein So then why are you still talking?
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
Why not? What does this have to do with Kircheis' death and who is culpable for it, if anyone? :)
DerOberstein 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@geesehoward4life
Why not? What does this have to do with Kircheis' death and who, if anyone, is culpable for it?
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@Zarathustra799 Did the writers not show the fact that the Westerland People were already talking about going over to Rheinhard & serving him, yes. That's a fact. Why did they want to do that, because of his reputation & the way he'd carried himself & handled himself with Kircheis as his shadow. Oberstein steps in? Instant ends justify the means & you are already shown that prior to Oberstein's right ideas, people saw Rheinhard as a man to follow & respect because he didn't do things like that.
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
That's not relevant to the point Zarathustra made. He's stating that Westerland contributed to destroying the morale of the war potential of the Lippstadt rebels. This gave Reinhard's faction as advantage in infiltrating and securing Geiersberg which could have held out indefinitely.
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
Anyway, I was just picking at your silly idea that in 'german societies' military commanders are killed for disobeying orders. I have never heard of that. That sort of thing would happen in the Soviet Union, though. :-)
Zarathustra799 2 months ago
@Zarathustra799 As for historical examples, look at any revolution and see a pile of corpses of officers/people in charge who thought they could manipulate the situation for their own ends, and found out that the people doing the fighting are not too keen on being used by those on their own side, since they are revolting against those who where using them in the first place. I personally like the examples of the October Revolution and the following civil war in Russia.
russodrezden 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
I would disagree here. I think people would voluntarily enlist they people believed they were defending their homeland from an oppressive empire that wants to enslave them. The FPA was in a struggle for survival. If the citizens of the FPA were patriotic enough, they would enlist even if it meant certain death. The situations of the FPA and America today are entirely different.
Zarathustra799 2 months ago
@Zarathustra799 In the first episode, the level of stupidity displayed by the FPA commanders eventually turns out to be the running joke of the entire series until most of the FPA commanders are dead & the FPA military capacity destroyed by fools like Fork & that fat guy who took naps at Iserlohn Fortress. In an ACTUAL democratic society, at some point word gets back to the public FROM THE SOLDIERS ON LEAVE, our military CO's, couldn't lead ants to a picnic. Then what happens next?
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@Zarathustra799 How is the situation in the USA today different from the FPA? The fact that the FPA was in the struggle to survive would cause the common soldiery and lower ranking to take drastic and violent action to stop the brass from losing the war. Historical examples: World War I where Russian soldiery killed off their incompetent officers and accepted temporary loss of territory in order to restructure things at home. Vietnam war is a good example.
russodrezden 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Zarathustra799 How is the situation in the USA today different from the FPA? The fact that the FPA was in the struggle to survive would cause the common soldiery and lower ranking to take drastic and violent action to stop the brass from losing the war. Historical examples: World War I where Russian soldiery killed off their incompetent officers and accepted temporary loss of territory in order to restructure things at home. Vietnam war is a good example.
russodrezden 2 months ago
@DerOberstein And that was where it became a problem watching this show. Bittenfeld & the others, were ALREADY THERE, Oberstein WAS NOT. NONE OF THEM, DITCHED AND RAN BECAUSE SOMEONE WOULDN'T LISTEN, OBERSTEIN DID! But then the WRITERS, EXPECT THE VIEWERS TO JUST DISMISS THIS? This is a critical error in what they put together, nobody who has fought on the battlefield is going to TOLERATE Oberstein coming in & then changing things around, when? Who are you again? When did you get here? Why?
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life And that's what messes the entire series up in a number of other places too. The writers hammer out definitive persona's, but then when they know that this character SHOULD DO THIS OR THAT, out of the blue, they don't! And they turn it into a plot device where, if you don't care or don't see it, fine. If you do? Then it ruins it. When Oberstein starts arguing about no #2, Rheinhard has been BRUTALLY HONEST with EVERYONE ELSE, but mysteriously?
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
At least you seem willing to admit that your irrational bias against Oberstein clouds your ability to enjoy the show. :)
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@DerOberstein He doesn't tell Oberstein "Where was all of this insistence at when you were a staff officer at Iserlohn Fortress?" He tells Oberstein that Kircheis is a part of him, but then CONVENIENTLY DOESN'T REMIND HIM THAT "You know, you keep talking, I'll discharge you from my admiralty, then what happens next? What happens to you next?" He had spoken to anyone else PRIOR, IN THE SAME FACTUAL MANNERISMS! But now all of a sudden, no. No, not this time. HAHHAHAHAH! PLEASE! TO A DESERTER!?
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@DerOberstein Who is going to tolerate a DESERTER, trying to push their ADVICE? About a long-time best friend & VASSAL, who has produced &/or contributed with their good council & support, to much of the success that Oberstein is now trying to hide behind? And then screw-around with? If they hadn't already established Rheinhard's character, then this can be overlooked. If Oberstein wasn't a deserter, then it still might be able to be looked past. But they got too greedy to build up a moment.
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@DerOberstein And then too many factors are against Oberstein having any real weight to try a move like what he was "suggesting". BUT!? When you read up on Japanese military history or even the way that their societal set-up is, this kind of cornball crap, happens way too much. A fool comes along, gets given a position & then everyone kowtows solely because he was given a higher rank, instead of looking at the reality of the situation & whether or not what is being done, has real merit.
geesehoward4life 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
Fascinating, but you're still running away from the original argument. :o What does this have to do with Reinhard's culpability in Kircheis' death?
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
"except the lame excuse that it was just dropped by the writers & glossed over."
lol, this confirms how logically bankrupt you are. Where have I used any such excuses? I presented a logical and comprehensible argument. You, OTOH, haven't. Your entire argument hinges on you interpretation of one line in the script and then rejecting the fact that Oberstein was highly promoted after Kircheis' death. Again, you argue based on feelings, not facts.
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
When the context of Oberstein's promotion and increased prestige in the Imperial Fleet is considered, it makes the argument that Reinhard consented to Oberstein's advice far more coherent than your own position. Reinhard evidently didn't hold Oberstein responsible for Kircheis' death in any way, form, or fashion. Therefore it is plainly clear that "All right, drop it" was Reinhard giving his consent to Oberstein, deciding Kircheis' (unforeseen) fate himself.
DerOberstein 2 months ago
@geesehoward4life
Assuming Reinhard really was the charismatic natural-born leader the show depicts him as, then Reinhard would most certainly NOT have thrown a hissy fit and hold one of his loyal retainers responsible for an unforeseen outcome caused by a decision Reinhard HIMSELF made. As a man who took upon himself the responsibility of taking charge over the whole of the Empire, Reinhard did what he naturally should have done. He took responsibility for his OWN decisions.
DerOberstein 2 months ago
I need to rewatch LOGH
wargamer234 3 months ago
@wargamer234 Same. In fact I'll do it in chronological order.
Vonzaku 3 months ago
Bittenfield may be a dumbass but he survived the show which is more than you can say for 90% of the competent admirals.
222Pastry 4 months ago
Oberstien: a true machiavellian.
bigred2989 5 months ago
This video has the best title in the history of ever.
EnconXV 1 year ago 3
The mother of Oberstein must be a Vulcan! The guy has virtually no emotions! 0_o
Anoleis 2 years ago 3
So hes pretty much like the filter of the gas mask reinhard is wearing.
whatewer23 2 years ago 3
Oberstien, anime's original asshole
Garhunt05 2 years ago 7
@Garhunt05
Oberstein was only telling it how it is. ;) Bittenfeld most certainly is the most incompetent admiral in the Imperial Fleet considering his debacle at Amlitzer that allowed Yang Wenli to escape and also how he managed to get Fahrenheit killed by ignoring Reinhard's explicit order to wait for the main body of the Imperial Fleet at the Iserlohn Corridor. It's actually a wonder why Bittenfeld was promoted so much when other admirals who screw up, like Turneisen, get punished.
Grimgerde 1 year ago 9
@Grimgerde i think Bittenfield is the sole reason why the Kaiser lost to Yang Wenli lol
rinwhr 7 months ago
@rinwhr
You do have to wonder how different galactic history would be if Reinhard had a competent commander in Bittenfeld's place at the Battle of Amlitzer.
Grimgerde 7 months ago
@Grimgerde What? By the time Bittenfeld got Yang'd at Amlitzer, he had already crushed 2 Alliance fleets (something that none of the other Admirals had done in that battle), not to mention Yang would have owned anyone else at Amlitzer. lol@getting Fahrenheit killed. More like he got himself killed. Bittenfeld wasn't Reuenthal or Mittermeyer tier, but he definitely was one of the most talented Admirals Reinhard had, and Reinhard KNEW it.
Sentenal 6 months ago
@Sentenal
Firstly, Ulanfu had a very serious disadvantage against Bittenfeld at Amlitzer thanks to the "scorched earth" policy implemented by Reinhard (likely thanks to Oberstein's advice). Even with this disadvantage, a significant portion of Ulanfu's fleet managed to successfully break out and retreat through Bittenfeld's battle line; who's to say how the battle would have transpired if both commanders were on equal footing.
Grimgerde 6 months ago
@Sentenal
Secondly, although Bittenfeld did manage to destroy Appleton, it was entirely Bittenfeld's fault that Yang Wenli was able to annihilate him. Bittenfeld changed the position of his fleet prematurely, making himself extremely vulnerable, and Yang Wenli simply took advantage of it. No special tricks were used. It was directly Bittenfeld's fault and Yang Wenli was later able to escape to the Iserlohn Corridor.
Grimgerde 6 months ago
@Sentenal
Thirdly, when Bittenfeld disobeyed Reinhard's order to wait for the main body of the Imperial Fleet before attacking Iserlohn, Fahrenheit was obligated as a fellow soldier of the Imperial Fleet to not just save Bittenfeld but also the soldiers under Bittenfeld's command whom Bittenfeld foolishly threw at the mercy of Yang Wenli. It was because of Fahrenheit's sacrifice that Bittenfeld survived and Bittenfeld acknowledged his duplicity in Fahrenheit's death before the Kaiser himself.
Grimgerde 6 months ago
@Sentenal
At-any-rate, defeating any Alliance admirals one-on-one apart from Yang Wenli and Bucock is nothing to brag about. I think to find an equal match in the Empire for admirals such as Paeta, Borodin, and Appleton, you'd have to put up someone like Staaden or Erlache.
Grimgerde 6 months ago
@Grimgerde I guess it's because of his fierce loyalty and how much useful his incompetence can be at times. No other admiral would simply charge and rush into the enemy forces the way he does it -- but at times that can be useful. As long as Reinhard is able to restrain him, he's a brilliant ace in the hole.
gogerychwyrndrobwll 4 months ago
For somebody so smart, Oberstein had no idea how to deal with people.
rex290 2 years ago 2
@rex290
You can't blame Oberstein for the insubordination of the people Reinhard placed under Oberstein's command. Reinhard knew that Bittenfeld was hostile to Oberstein so it was ultimately his mistake.
Grimgerde 1 year ago