Rachel Maddow- Immigration (2) group president addresses racism accusations

[ginesdepasamonte]

FAIR is a hate group, nothing more.

[punkmanjon]

@hughster41 You best get out then cos your country belongs to the American Indians.

[liqdC]

Excuse me John Tanton is the Founder of Fair, Ford is not the founder of De La Raza.

[liqdC]

He is Comparing Ford and De La Raza to John Tanton and FAIR. Truth: Ford was never the President of De La Raza. Appeal to doubtful authority- fallacy. Check-mate Dan Stein. He's good at pussy-footing, but he gets shot down every time he makes a claim. The end.

[Jujuman2003]

Dan Stein is a bitch.

[zhao4long2]

misquote...... hahahaha, put the blame on somebody else

[11111110]

@hughster41

Wow, so God only cares about Americans?

[cjdallas21]

You did well, putting that dirtbag on his place Rachel!

[11111110]

@hughster41

And thats where we disagree. Rights are not something any man can just take away, nor do we have to suck up to a government approval agency just to be granted them.

[LikwidSnake]

Whoa! Douchebag alert!! Rachel ripped this guy a new one ... excellent stuff.

[theyremypeas]

how does rachel keep a straight face with parasites like this?

[punkmanjon]

@hughster41 Im not trying to make up rules. Im saying that laws ALL laws (even good ones) are made up. The laws of America are 'made up' they are simply adhered to by consensus of the people, however, that does morally give you anymore right to the land of the USA than any other immigrant.

[punkmanjon]

@punkmanjon Sorry that shouldnt be doesnt not does!

[punkmanjon]

@hughster41 Im not making it about brown and white. What makes your citizenship legitimate? Nothing but time and convention. In reality you have no more claim to citizenship of a country which you are not a native of than a Mexican, Arab or Chinese person does.

[11111110]

@hughster41

You don't see the problem with that? You're still ascribing the government with the ability to give and remove rights.

[punkmanjon]

@hughster41 You are making the mistake that white Americans somehow have a legitimate claim to the country. They don't. It was stolen from the indians. Over time people have come to accept it as legitimacy but please remember that you have no more right to be in America than anybody else who isnt a native american indian.

[11111110]

@hughster41

So you don't believe that the rights laid out by our founding fathers are God-given and inalienable? That people have rights only when the American government says they do?

[Freshmanwave]

@hughster41 I used the native example to point out the impracticality of your proposal to "get rid of" those who immigrated illegally. Since white settlers repeatedly illegally entered native land and took the land from the tribes by force, should they (or their descendants) be kicked out of that land? If the answer is yes, is it a practical solution? Obviously, the answer to that question is no.

[Freshmanwave]

At no time did I suggest that Mexicans should be allowed to enter the US "anytime they want"; I'm simply proposing a solution to deal with the malaise of many immigrants in America today. Since they are not willing to leave and kicking them out is impractical, should America implement policies that make their lives more miserable? No!

[Freshmanwave]

The only way to really solve the problem is to enact policies that encourage people to stay in Mexico. This is why NAFTA, which tanked workers' wages in Mexico and forced many to go north to find a livelihood, must be repealed. It is also why corporate greed, which is the fuel for this phenomenon, must be contained and kept in check.

[Freshmanwave]

But now let us go to my language proposal...

Why shouldn't a flexible language policy be enacted? After all, the US has no official language de jure, nor is she designed to cater exclusively to those who speak English. If you're uncomfortable with that idea...well, that's just too bad.

[Freshmanwave]

Heck, to prevent you from swearing at me again, I'll even back down a bit and offer you a compromise; try using English as a universal official language and a second official language in localities where its native speakers take up a substantial minority of the local population.

[punkmanjon]

@Freshmanwave I agree with you but would also add that the English Americans speak is an imported and hybridised language anyway. It is not the same as English spoken in GB and therefore has no greater weight or reason for being the official language of America than any other language which is spoken by citizens of the US. This hughster guy does not seem to understand that democrary does NOT mean simply doing what the majority wants.

[iLuvAkeys4ever]

@punkmanjon I think you are wrong. The whole point of democracy IS doing what the majority wants. That is why in Amsterdam people are allowed to legally smoke majuarnna and have sex with animals. The majority not the minority voted and these are its countries laws. If the minority ruled the day smoking majuanna and have sex with animals would be illegal in amsterdam!

[punkmanjon]

@iLuvAkeys4ever Sorry but Im a politics MA student. Deomcracy does NOT mean doing what the majority want. That is a common misconception. Democracy is the ability to elect our own leaders and change them if we feel it necessary and we elect those who will represent the interests of all NOT just of the majority. No society can work if it simply does what the majority wants all the time that would be unbelievable stupidity.

[11111110]

@hughster41

You didn't answer my question.

[Freshmanwave]

@hughster41 The action is illegal. The person is not. There is no such thing as an illegal human being; there only exists people who arrived illegally. For there to be an illegal person, his/her very existence in the world would have to be illegal. This is not just an argument over semantics; it is also a consciousness-raiser. Why must you insist on dehumanising those who entered America illegally through the usage of such language?

[Freshmanwave]

But to your other points now, beginning with the one about rewarding criminals:

I would like to point out that the case of illegal immigration happened many times in American history; just look at how the US government treated the natives. It is an endless cycle of encroachment, disregard for native sensibilities and finally the concession of that land by natives.

[Freshmanwave]

Presumably, since these settlers not only entered native land illegally but ended up taking it from the natives by force, your logic dictates that they should be kicked out (which, I'm afraid, would include a majority of US territory) or else you would be "rewarding criminals". But rewarding criminals is exactly what had happened time after time in American history.

[Freshmanwave]

To your other point: why shouldn't the language policy change? The basis of America's strength is in her immigrants; she is nothing without them. So long as immigrants observe the Enlightenment principles that are the foundation of democracy (freedom of speech, separation of church and state, etc.), multiculturalism can and should be embraced.

[Freshmanwave]

Unless you're suggesting that those who entered the country illegally are attempting to subvert the democratic process, I see no point in continuing any further with this line of argument.

[Freshmanwave]

And I am done now. Time for more music...

[11111110]

@hughster41

Well,if lawmakers were discovered to be a bunch of Marxist sleeper agents, would you not object to their actions on the basis of their hidden agenda?

[Freshmanwave]

Before I explain my solution, I object to your description of these people as "illegals". There is no such thing as an illegal person. Actions can be illegal; people are not.

[Freshmanwave]

Here is what I have for now:

1. Repeal NAFTA (which caused workers' wages in Mexico to tank) and negotiate the trade deal with Mexico on the basis of workers' rights

2. Provide a path to legalisation; you cannot realistically expect to get rid of millions of people

3. Enact a flexible language policy (like the one in Finland)

[Freshmanwave]

4. Make it easier for people to unionise; the influx of so many undocumented workers is due to corporate greed in wanting to have cheap labour

5. Create financial disincentives for companies to ship jobs overseas

[Freshmanwave]

Clarifying note: financial disincentives for companies that ship jobs overseas

I apologise for the error in my previous post.

[Freshmanwave]

Again, so it has to be a choice between preserving one's dignity and reducing illegal immigration? I reject this choice as false; you can have both.

And do you honestly think that the rate of violence will decrease in Mexico if you enacted gun laws like those in America?

[juniorjay001]

she bent him over a desk and rheemed him!

[flexorder]

An important by-product of NAFTA was the import of cheap agricultural products into Mexico. Subsistance and marginal farmers left their farms and went to cities and industrial areas for work. Mexican industry did not compete well with Chinese imports so a lot of the surplus labor went north.

[oscom]

That guy is a nazi... DEPORT HIM BACK TO GERMANY

[Freshmanwave]

@hughster41 And my reply...

1. So it has to be a choice between preserving a person's dignity and controlling illegal immigration?

2. Just because I didn't mention how the Taliban whip women in the streets does not mean I approve of the act. What I gave earlier were examples of atrocities, not a laundry list of things I disapprove. Had I done the latter, I'm sure that I would be still going at it now...and you would be bored pretty quickly.

[Freshmanwave]

3. The rash of gun violence in Mexico is not due to the gun laws. Here would be some of the major reasons:

income inequality

unemployment

weak social safety net

corruption

When you are unable to make a living via legitimate means, you will turn to crime (which involves guns).

[Freshmanwave]

4. It is true that the Phelps family (except their son Nate) are personae non grata in Canada, which I do not approve of. However, considering that there is a concerted effort by the American Religious Right to violate the separation of church and state for the past few decades, I would like to say that Canadians are better off in terms of free speech (though, of course, there being room to improve upon it).

[Freshmanwave]

Clarifying note: Separation of church and state is vital to maintaining free speech, especially considering what the Christian fundamentalists in America have in mind as their ultimate goal: the implementation of right-wing theocracy in the country.

[waksibra]

I'm in love with Rachel.

[smtpgirl]

@uktransplantedyank

who cares what you think, Rachel debunked this liar's commentary!!

Maybe you should educate yourself.

FAIR IS RACIST, it has ties past and present that want the anglo-saxon race to be a majority. Problem is that he slips.

[demo4change]

this mirrors the EXISTING federal law, it just allows the state to enforced the law that feds do not want to enforce because of the corporate machines lust for cheap exploitable labor if you step across the border, you are illegal and a fugitive and have given up your rights when you became a criminal

[demo4change]

this mirrors the EXISTING federal law, it just allows the state to enforced the law that feds do not want to enforce because of the corporate machines lust for cheap exploitable labor if you step across the border, you are illegal and a fugitive and have given up your rights when you became a criminal

[jahshoverstand]

This show is the most honest and well researched show of it's kind anywhere on TV. Rachel is not only fair but I believe may be the most intelligent host out there. If she could draw viewership numbers like those of the propagandists at Fox, it could really do some good for this country.

[DillonDee1]

This guy is KKK all the way.

And, damn, Rachel does her research!

[TheBlueConch]

Righteous Rachel! Excellent work.

[Freshmanwave]

@hughster41 And with the loss of your composure follows your argument, not completely unlike what happened to Stein in the video above us. But for the sake of finishing my case, I will respond to your charges as follows (see next post):

[Freshmanwave]

1. It is my business when a person's dignity is being violated; it is my moral duty as a humanitarian. My reaction to this is not unlike many Americans' reactions when they heard about the atrocities committed in Darfur, or when they found out that their government was torturing people in Guantanamo Bay (condemning such actions). You probably like to mind other people's business too; can you really say you didn't have an opinion on the Israeli offensive in Gaza last year?

[Freshmanwave]

2. Canada has no free speech? Who kicked that into your head? The last time I checked, Canadian PM election debates featured the leaders of five parties (Liberal, Conservative, New Democratic, Green and Bloc Quebecois). Heck, the Bloc, which pushes for eventual Quebec independence from Canada, was allowed a voice on the CBC broadcast! Can you imagine some secessionist being allowed that much attention on NBC?

[Freshmanwave]

3. People can own guns in Canada, so that part isn't right. When Canadians don't like something, they turn to the ballot box; turning to guns is the reaction of someone who doesn't trust the democratic process. And may I point out that gun violence rates are much lower in Canada than in the US?

It was nice talking to you. I'll listen to some French hip hop now.

[jensen1901]

Private papers in the library? Wow. Republicans are world class liars.

[Freshmanwave]

@hughster41 So, if I walked on the streets in Phoenix, would you suspect that I am living there illegally? How would you have a "reasonable suspicion" that I immigrated illegally? By the colour of my skin? By the fact that I speak multiple languages? By my clothing? The vagueness of the law allows police officers to make up any excuse at will in order to violate others' constitutional rights. In other words,it creates a dreamland for racists and authoritarians.

[dwilliamsamh]

@Freshmanwave More like "Wet dreamland" for the authoritarians and racists out there. It is o funny how at the same time these hypocrites are wining about the Obama "regime" "taking away our rights" (with ZERO examples of such actions) - they immediately give their full support to a law that allows, nay DIRECTS, the police to harass people - citizens, legal immigrants, and illegal immigrants alike.

[dwilliamsamh]

@Freshmanwave And one more thing:

Isn't "show me your papers" a line in EVERY film about authoritarian governments around the world for the last hundred years? And these people WANT this to be reality here.

[dwilliamsamh]

@hughster41 So then you should have no trouble giving a few examples. And do those examples translate to say illegal Russians? Or Irish? What about illegal Brits? Or French Canadians? Can your reasonable suspicion points be applied to people from all of those groups walking down an AZ street? Or maybe a street in NYC? Chicago?

I'd really like to know.

[dwilliamsamh]

@hughster41 So define it in context. What would be reasonable suspicion that some random person is an illegal?

And unless AZ has some funky azz constitution - the governor can't "amend" a law. The legislature has to do that. Of course if you could site a link I might believe you.

[dwilliamsamh]

@hughster41 I, like EVERY ONE, don't want illegal immigrants to just be able to flout the law. So here's the question - how does one determine who to ask for proof? What constitutes "reasonable suspicion" for an officer to decide to stop an individual and ask for their papers? The law does NOT require that there be another cause. And remember the law directs all law enforcement to do this under threat of law suit brought by ANYONE who thinks they aren't complying.

[Freshmanwave]

@hughster41 Of course motivation is relevant! If you're a racist, you want the law so you can treat Hispanics in a less-than-humane way.

[Freshmanwave]

Motivation, of course, will also be a determining factor in how the law will be exercised and practiced. Now, the vast majority of the police officers in Arizona are not racist. However, the law will allow the racist police officers to run roughshod over people's constitutional rights because of the tone of their skin (violating the Fourth Amendment in the process), while forcing many non-racists to do the same against their will and conscience.

[sungmee45]

He needs to be a bit silence and let the girl talk and stop interrupting her. It seems he doesn't want to hear anything at all. Just want to scream out with hatered. He has alot of problem I can see.

[Freshmanwave]

@hughster41 Except that these viewpoints are entirely relevant to the debate. If your motivation to pass the law in Arizona is because of racially-motivated views, that takes into question the integrity of the law, doesn't it?

[comgeek24]

I hate how people are trying to say that because what that Tanton guy said, he said 30 years ago, and that that makes it irrelevant. That would be true if he didn't hold those same view points 30 years later. People just can't stand it because Rachel pointed out not only the racism in Arizona's bill, but the racism behind Arizona's bill. Rachel kicked this guy's ass whether he or anyone else wants to admit it or not.

[jusitke07]

I agree to a certain extent about everyone coming to this country to legally obtain a citizenship, but I totally disagree without a doubt in my mind to pull over anybody that looks Latino solely on the basis of questioning their citizenship. That's outright racial profiling. And Im not surprised the Arizona Legislature, and John McCain, didn't include the many illegal Russians in Arizona too.

[jensen1901]

Maddow owned him with that Joeseph Turmer quote. Well researched interview.

[the82spartans]

WTF? This dude needs a mustache and stop bitching like a chick. The only racists that exist are ghosts made up by the lib media.

[quizerry]

I don't get why she is arguing race and not the issue. The issue to me is easy. Our Gov. by barring the legal entry of low-skilled immigrant workers, has created the conditions for an underground labor market. As long as the Gov. maintains this prohibition, illegal immigration will be widespread, and the cost of reducing it, in tax $ and compromised civil liberties, will be enormous. If we expand opportunities for legal immigration it dramatically reduces incentives for illegal immigration

[quizerry]

@quizerry What is wrong with a seasonal agricultural permits for immigrants to work in that business? And the illegals living here that have jobs could get a temporary work permit on recommendation by employers for 3 years. From there they can decide if they want citizenship. Also if you have a job offer here you could get the 3yr work permits. Gov. has to make it easier to be able to be here legally in order to cut the illegals coming across the border and easier to control the border.

[PurpleJacketJoker]

The Arizona law was Amended and removed language that contained Police being able to ask for ID due to "Suspicious Behavior". They have to PROVE they stopped them for another violation before checking their legal status.

I'm willing to be that still won't satisfy Liberals though because they want everyone who crosses the boarder to be given instant citizenship.

Did you see the violence coming out of these protests? Imagine if they Tea Party did that? They would be deemed SATANISTIC by Maddow

[PotheadPundit]

PWND

[smtpgirl]

White people are scared, very scared. They know they will be the minority in 10 years.

This guy is a schmuck, too much inbreeding.

Sad, so sad.

Embrace individuality

[uktransplantedyank]

@smtpgirl

You don't respond to racism with more racism. Don't be stupid.

[goru426]

-

GOOD JOB RACHEL! You fucked him very well! I hope he enjoyed it!

NO TO RACISM!

NO TO XENOPHOBIA!

NO TO FEAR MONGERING!

NO TO White Power IDIOTS!

The republicans are promoting fear and xenophobia among the American people!

[sybilll]

And you wonder why Cartoon Network has better ratings.

[lmn8bush]

@patsagainstrats You're about as funny as cancer , loser !

[allamericanboys2001]

That's the problem with having racist friends, people just don't take you seriously when you say you're FAIR.

[JayPhilosopher]

Interesting, the way the man said that Rachel's facts were smears, but he did not produce any counter-facts.

[airborne373]

Maddow received her scholarship from Cecil Rhodes a known racist, eugenicist and Fabian Socialist. So by the logic she uses her she is a racist.

[MenaceFan]

Independently verifying that out of context statements were made and guilt by association McCarthyistic actions with those statements means absolutely nothing. Context still matters which she never delves into. She is the left's version of Hannity.

[balvarez01]

I love this woman! Love her!

[DillonDee1]

Modern-Day KKK

[DireAvanger]

that white guy is soooo annoying yelling at everything and being ignorant

[GradStud28]

Maddow: "I am bringing you facts that I have independly researched. If you can't criticize them, don't criticize me for asking you about them. Rebut them if you can . . ."

Stein: "Alright, the answer is 'no'."

[AAAdilene]

GOD!! she is so good with her job!!!...so what is FAIR...NOT FAIR!!!!, Mr. Stein choking up, can't even answer a simple question!!! LMAO!!.....Keep doing your awesome job RACHEL!!!

[biggodhead]

Rachel spankin' the Klansman.

Go girl!

[tokyoeye]

BOOM!!!! Good journalism. In yo face racist pig.

[ejpoeta]

I love rachel maddow. and the fact that she can keep calm when i'd be screaming at the guy..... i love how he said stuff like that was 20 years ago... blah blah blah.... she is a great journalist. good job rachel!

[super16g123]

Maddow and msnbc is just a democratic shill. fox is a republican shill. how do you take these two so called news stations serious? lol

[latino007007]

Stein is an idiot!

[sradss1]

Rachel Maddow is a little slow... Obviously, so are the other 12 folks that routinely watch MSNBC... It's ok though - Libs and the far-left are very entertaining... Which probably explains why I am one of those 12 viewers, LOL!!!

[dwilliamsamh]

@sradss1 What facts did Rachel get wrong?

[wesanchan]

@dwilliamsamh a few lol

[ZOMGitsJesusCriss]

I agree with this man, ignorant people should not breed....now off with his pecker!

[daddiokng]

Funny how he never disputes the claims, only the source. Typical tactic when you can't dispute facts yell about the source.

[carhac66]

he is another slow witted racist. he cries things are not true, but does not prove anything he says. where are his facts? she has facts he has none.

[jhamm999]

he flat out spanked maddow and made her call him daddy!!!

[Tubeydoobeydo]

I say this with all due respect. Rachel Maddow has BALLS! I love her.

[joeglow]

Wow. People think this is journalism?

"Did an employee of yours not eat at the same Pizza Hut only 30 minutes after the neighbor of a guy who wrote this comment in an academic paper 30 years ago?"

[IAMtheNewWorldOrder]

@joeglow

That's a false analogy. The problem is, people on the right just think as long as they talk in code about this, as long as they don't outright say racist things, then we should not be able to make the accusation. But we make the accusations because other people supporting your same cause in every other way DO say these things.

There is not that much difference of opinion between racists and people like this guy, just a difference in how honest they are to themselves & the rest of us.

[p3snooper]

Great job, Rachel. Although he didn't answer your questions, he really *did* answer your questions.

[witchwild]

The most tired old excuse in the reichwing's world to extricate themselves out of sticky situations: "You're taking it out of context".

[SourceCode2006]

White people man. We definitely need to get our shit in order.

[warrenoc]

Rachel has cracked that guy and I don't think that centrist moderate label is still attached to fair after this interview.

[PhilipPorter]

I admire Rachel Maddow for taking this job on. It isn`t often someone gets a platform to defend actions and allowed so much TV time to do that. This was a difficult and was always going to be inflammatory and I admire her for doing it.

[MegaMusicBoi]

He says he wanted to talk about f.a.i.r and as she said we found out all we needed to know about him and his racist organization....Thank you Rachael.

[madamezora7]

This is why free speech is so vital- let the most disgusting pigs imaginable have a chance at the mike, so everyone can see them for who they are. She did the right thing letting him ramble on a few times, he dropped his pants without much goading. That was masterfully played- she even invited him back for another good bitch-slap! Plenty more where that came from, wannabe bully.

[SubmarinerAndroid]

@madamezora7 Yes! Free speech means more light.

[booley]

Wow, for a group that isn't racist, they sure have a lot of racists in high positions and a lot of ties to racists.

Weird.

I don't know what's in this guys head. I can't tell if he hates people with brown skin.

But he sure sounds like he doesn't have have much a problem with people who do.

[madamezora7]

@booley, it's probably less that he ACTUALLY hates brown people, but more about fear and loss of status. People "in power", whether real or imaginary, are seldom inclined to give up their perception of power without a fight. Notice these are all old dinosaur white people who yearn for a return to a time when white supremacy was the social norm. They probably really believe they are somehow superior, and this belief gives their lives meaning.

This is why I hate stupid ppl.

[atravesaox3]

OMG!!! She literally ripped him a new a-hole! LMAO!!!!

[mortysand]

This guy is a racist. Period.

[Capng123]

Apparently he went to the FOX school of debate: when you're losing, keep talking and talk LOUDER.

[Freshmanwave]

So boys and girls, this is what a journalist who is willing to ask tough questions looks like.

[tokyoeye]

@Freshmanwave BOOM!! Good journalism Maddow. In your face racist pig.

[airborne373]

@Freshmanwave You might want to do some reading. Maddow is a Rhodes Scholar, Cecil Rhodes was a famous Race Supremest and Fabian Socialist. After Rhodes death his money was in trust to Lord Rothchild who hired Lord Milner to set up the society instructed in Rhodes will.

"My patriotism knows no geographical but only racial limits. I am a British Race patriot." - Lord Milner

Maddow is a college educated RACIST!

[Freshmanwave]

@airborne373 You will need to watch Maddow's bit on Stein and FAIR tonight, then.

[MrFreedomdemocracy]

She fucked him badly

[stonedc7]

madcow

[Hazmat347]

Rachel Maddow Pwnds Dan Stein. Classic.

[Freshmanwave]

@Hazmat347 From the outset, it was clear that Maddow was outclassing Stein. It became more emphatic as it went on.