Noam Chomsky: A Critique of Madisonian Democracy - On Corporations (4/7) (1997)

[slckr80s]

Near Hegelian.

[Ermal8711]

Rome was not a democracy, it was an oligarchy. The only direct democracy that we have an example of is Athens. There are democratic societies that go way way back, but on a state level, the only ancient democracy that we know in depth is Athens.

[ostralopithicus]

@Ermal8711 That's right.

[ostralopithicus]

The founders were not eugenicists - they didn't believe in putting man over man as they knew where that power would lead. That's why they despised democracy. Chomsky ignores their other writings on democracy and ignores the history of democracy in previous ancient states where it led to the destruction of society. To avoid a eugenic's based state, man must be free to suffer the burden of his own mistakes and if he is a decent man he will find the benefit of charity.

[ostralopithicus]

Chomsky also ignores the fact that business creates wealth and jobs and reduces poverty. He is absolutely right about the nature of the corporation and it's relation to the state - a condition the founders (mostly) would have deplored. since Lincoln, the US has been destroying the constitution in favor of democracy and in favor of corporate-statism - mercanitlism and through the 1900's, corporate-socialist statism - Fascism.

[ostralopithicus]

The solution is to quit the state, and let the chip fall where they may. Without the state, there is no protection for the corporation and businessmen will be tied to the Natural Law.

[zerothought]

@ostralopithicus "Chomsky also ignores the fact that business creates wealth and jobs and reduces poverty."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! WHOOO!

That's hilarious, dude. You actually believe that, don't you?

[ostralopithicus]

@zerothought -- your name is very apt. If you want to put together a cogent argument for discussion, please do, otherwise you are wasting everyones time.

[JagjeetMann]

@ostralopithicus you sir, are a complete dumbass

[ostralopithicus]

@JagjeetMann -- Just as with zerothoughts comment, you are wasting everyones time by not positing an argument, but only empty rhetoric and character assassination, Chomsky himself would deplore your tactic and lack of tact.

[lalaurentide]

@ostralopithicus Businesses don't create wealth, people do, a job is being rented by a richer person to enrich him even more. The wealth generated by labor should be owned and distributed evenly amongst those who did the work, not the business owner keeping a majority because he owns property (shop, tools, land, natural ressources, etc). You don't get it.

[Alohomora42]

@ostralopithicus

"ignores the history of democracy in previous ancient states where it led to the destruction of society."

I'm not sure where you've been getting these facts from.

There are just two ancient examples of democracy which come to mind: Athens and Rome.

In neither case did democracy '[lead] to the destruction of society' unless you think that one event proceeding another (the sequence of events) proves causation.

[ostralopithicus]

@Alohomora42 -- A simple search would clarify this. Plato himself wrote about the failure of Athenian democracy, so I find it hard to conceive that you bothered to look into my assertion.

[Alohomora42]

@ostralopithicus Sorry I was a bit unfair about your assertion.

Plato was very anti-democratic, as shown by his Republic, in which a strict religious caste system is present. I'm not sure that he is the fairest judge of the downfall so I'll skip over that.

Athenian democracy worked well when it was at it's peak, a tremendous cultural genius was at work among the population- perhaps the apotheosis of ancient civilisation. Continued---

[Alohomora42]

@Alohomora42 It did fall during the Peloponnesian War. I haven't heard anybody say 'because it was a democracy.' The other cities ganged up against it because the Athenian empire was getting too powerful for sparta's taste.

Perhaps if pericles wasn't such a passive general, or the athenians were more diplomatic, or the devastating plague didn't hit athens. It was a close run war and Athens was just unlucky, in the end the Spartans destroyed the first democracy- it didn't implode.

[ostralopithicus]

@Alohomora42 I confess I do not know the history well, I've read many quotes of people I respect who've led me to this belief of the fall of Athens. That said, to my mind it is logical. And I support the notion of a republic more than a 'voting' democracy, yet I support the notion of dollar-democracy over all else for I've seen, firsthand, that some and I suspect most, politicians, under democracy, end up the puppets of the wealthy who use government to stifle their competition.

[ostralopithicus]

“It had been observed that a pure democracy if it were practicable would be the most perfect government. Experience had proved that no position is more false than this. The ancient democracies in which the people themselves deliberated never possessed one good feature of government. Their very character was tyranny; their figure deformity.”

Alexander Hamilton June 21, 1788

[ostralopithicus]

“The world is weary of statesmen whom democracy has degraded into politicians.”

British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli -1850

In any case, I'm not happy to have a majority use force against minorities. This to me is a sort of intellectual racism. I find it completely antithetical to a free and civil society.