I constantly hear my fellow Waldorfians (yes, I am a waldorfian) complain that people think we are part of a cult. I had a wonderful experience as a Waldorf student, and I often have a difficult time explaining myself and Waldorf education in general. I hate to say it, but this video really isn't helping.
I personally have been going to a Waldorf school since 5th grade and I truly believe that waldorfs education is far better then public schools out there. At waldorf I feel like I am actuly learning something and that I will succeed in life. Just thought I would let you all know that the graduating class of last year in the high school, every student in that class was excepted into a 4 year college.
The thing I noticed about the teenagers is how relaxed and yet super-focused and in-the-moment they are. That's a rare combination of qualities in a teen.
i think the reason i had such a hard time in high school at Waldorf was that i joined Waldorf in 7th grade. It really is a huge shift from elementary to high school. You go from a really lax and innocent environment to a what i felt was incredibly rigid and challenging.
The public school system has been set up to fail over the past 10 years (especially with NCLB), so that the wealthy primarily, will not have their taxes going towards the common good of all children, benefiting the whole rather than the few.
I chose to send my daughter to a Waldorf School K - 12, but I also believe in free public education and I am against any in support of vouchers, or robbing the public system of its money. Instead, the public system needs more creativity, less testing.
That is the beauty of freedom it can be whatever one chooses, for that is true freedom--no rules ;) unless one must have rules for they are free to choose
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
Why can't Waldorf be banned? By miseducating people, Waldorf shcools ruin the lives of thousands of people. Governemts should be aware of this danger and eliminate anhtroposophy and waldorfism.
@bolshevikML waldorf cant be banned because people have the right to choose. why the fuck would you think that it is miseducating people. Its not hurting you so shut the fuck up!
It is really nice if the teachers could take some time fore everyone and help them. When the play with all together in school and have fun that is great at Waldorf but i think Waldorf is stuck in 1919 waldorf mixed with modern things but taking care of children would be perfekt.
And I have had children in one of the oldest schools , visited several others, and have friends who have had children in at least 4 schools. How about you?
100 yrs of practising deceipt; Steiner himself advocated keeping quiet about anthroposophy, as do teachers today, because they know ( and say- I've heard them) that this would put people off.
It must be a very stressful business being economical with truth to parents, and heaven knows how it affects karma, even in a spiritual way.......
Read Steiner's work and see what the teachers read for their training. Anthroposophy governs choices in the classroom, from the round corners, colours, way of painting to the Norse myths you study. Anthroposphy is a belief system with "laws" which most teachers are guide by. Your academic success doesn't prove this education based on spiritual science is any good, it means you are bright! Far more children are failed by these schools; often they are taught by amateurs on their personal journey
Mercuryrules, are you talking about esoteric knowledge? Is that why you put it in inverted commas? If one reads Steiner, and dissects it in a rational way in order to make some sense of anthroposophical beliefs which are used in the classroom and at camphill communities, one can come to an understanding of it.; through study. If, as I suspect from your commas, you mean arcanum, secret esoteric knowledge,of those who follow the intended path of initiation, then I'm glad I'm not deluded.
mercuryrules, have you read Steiner's work much? Have you read the lectures and books where he mentions the "laws" of anthroposophy? Where he states so many of his "clairvoyant" visions as "truths", or states them as "facts"? My understanding would be, rationally, that in order to obtain this "knowledge" of yours, you would need to "believe" Steiner's clairvoyant visions, such as the existence of higher worlds, that reincarnation is fact, etc etc.
I've been studying Anthroposophy for 20+ years since studying engineering at uni.
If you pick up at textbook on mathematics, you will also encounter given "laws", which can actually be investigated. (should you trouble yourself to do so)
Well , the difference is whether clairvoyant visions, higher worlds, reincarnation, karma, the reality of angels, atlantis, man's prelife on Jupiter and the moon or gnomes are actually worth investigating. But my jip is with using this supernatural nonsense on children and people with learning difficulties as some kind of experiment ( and being deceptive about it). I'm really not interested and have no reason to judge anyone on their beliefs - but the schools should be honest, they are not
Those things would only be worth investigating if a person wanted to try to come to a definative, rational, thought-out judgement as to whether they might be true or not.
Experiment? Waldorf will soon be approaching 100 years of practice.
To accuse the schools of dishonesty is just laughable, how many of these schools have you visited? how many of the teachers have you talked to?
Mercury- a" rational, thought-out judgement as to whether they might be true or not." Whether gnomes, angels, Atlantis, karma etc might be true? Rational? Ahem, this is my point; believe what you want, but if you're basing an education, an agriculture system, social cae on this suernatural occult belief, at least have the decency to be transparent. hey- you might even attract people who believe in it too! Rather than hoping to save humanity by drawing in the unsuspecting few.
Most Waldorf teaching colleges require one to have a B.A. before they are considered for admissions. The teacher program is 2 to 4 years depending on what area of study.
I've found a lot of bad teachers in the Public school. Being informed and researching the school is key
Waldorf system is based on the occult with a very limited curriculum and lack of accountability. Pervasively religious and squandering taxpayers funds. Beware you'll be duped into fairy land!
1. Waldorf Steiner schools are not based on the 'occult', theyre based on the teachings of the founder, Rudolf Steiner. Although not directly based on any religion he believed in religious morals taught by religion (in my opinion the most significant part of religion)
2. Steiner schools have a wider curriculum than many state schools, helping to broaden both views and education (teaching basics like maths, english and history along with language and subjects such as eurithmy.
3.steiner schools are not a drain on taxpayers funds, if anything the persistently increasing decline of standards in state schools are. in many countries steiner schools are privately funded, leaving the bill with the parents (showing their trust in both the state and steiner educational system). these schools do not have a set fee as Steiner believed that everyone has a right to education, people only pay what their salary will allow them.
i only spent eleven years in steiner education before entering a state run school only to enter into every top set, achieve 4 A-stars at GCSE with all the rest A's, most of which GCSE work i was capable of doing before i left steiner education, four years previously.
your right, it is a 'fairy land', but you know what i think its still the best and most successful form of education around today.
There's no spirituality here worth for gnostic children. It sounds more like atheistic buddhism than hiduism which suck too. Reincarnation is a myth imposed upon man by those "Allmighty" Daevas just as the thoughts of hell and heaven. Yes there's "nirvana" and there's eternal Fravashi and there's our akhamenidian+sassanian tradition backing us. Homosexuality and heterosexuality are both ok if not doing anal. But any gods that don't see the better of the progress of man we reject. Khwedotas rules
There is an interesting thread from the Times. It has three people who trained as Steiner teachers. Karatecat, Lyehemian and further on , page 9 seamist - all trained as Steiner teachers , all saying similar things.- cult-like, teachings about race, karma etc. Saying they were told not to tell parents about anthroposophy.... Are they all lying? The link doesn't post, it's at community tes forums - the thread is called Steiner schools - on This Morning
The schools should open up, they should admit the religion/belief they are based on, and they should reject Steiner's teaching about race.Elin48, our children had a bad time at the expense of anthropopsophy at steiner school, we were deceived; I don't think expecting honesty is protesting too much.All the more so since in UK the movement is trying for state funding, and already have it in one school. Anthroposophy isn't mentioned on mant school websites or propectuses; I think that's dishonest.
LR(H)- I don't think parents give a hoot what is behind the colorworld. If someone is interested in anthroposphy they will simply pick up a book about it or wikipedia it. Even if you get every single Waldorf school in the world to host Anthroposophy Week few parents would bother to show up. And that is the sad truth. I wish we could come out more with the spiritual aspect of the human condition.
But raphael- don't you think the reason parents don't "give a hoot" is because they are constantly led to believe a) it isn't an important feature of school life , and isn't taught to the children, and b) when they do ask about it they are continually fobbed off with how difficult it is to understand, and how it's not important for parents to bother themselves with? Considering most schools don't even mention it in their literature, and it's only gradually mentioned at the schools to parents...
The Steiner waldorf Schools Fellowship has a tiny mention of anthroposophy in their faq. They say it "underpins the ethos of a Steiner school" which , in my book, meeans it's a huge part of the schools - as people in the know understand- and yet it goes on to say absolutely nothing about it; it's completely laughable. Raphael is there much being done among anthroposophists to reform? To disclose the spiritual core of the movement? Or are the old school Gotheneum stalwarts digging in their heels?
my class seems to be pretty atheist and we're always telling the teachers waldorf is indoctrinating kids into christianity and more kids would attend if it wasnt so religious. everyone of the verses we say, including the school verse, mentions god. its bullshit but the teachers just say its an anthroposophical school and parents know it. i guess old habits die hard but they really should get with the times! :]
So if anthroposophy is so unimportant to the curriculum and schools, why is it there atall? Why does the Steiner waldorf fellowship say it underlies the education? As a Steiner teacher, you have been trained by reading works predominately by Steiner.The curriculum is lead by anthroposophical beliefs; the starting points are that reincarnation is a fact, and belief in spirit worlds and karma; just because it isn't a subject taught, doesn't mean it isn't "there", the anthro "essence" & "impulse"
That London person also was under the impression that Waldorf teachers are trying to promote Anthroposophy in their teaching but this is simply not true. As a Waldorf teacher I was told to leave the two things separate. We were not to try to push Anthroposophy on anyone and it was to remain separate from the curriculum. We did have weekly study groups which parents and other interested parties could attend if they so wished.
I'd take a guess that it's the separation of "church" and "state" over here. Although only a few of our Waldorf schools are "magnet" or "charter", those are the ones that get public funding and some atheists get freaked out over that and some misinformed fundamentalists freak out when they see that Waldorf schools use "Catholic" festivals and are teaching people to think for themselves...that's my take on it...anyone else with a thought?
I think one risks huge controversy simply by asking that question. There are those issues in the UK and Germany as well, but not so rife as in the States. One should rather ask why the controversy exists anywhere. There is so much to say about that though and not enough space on here. I am an ex-Waldorf teacher and in my experience controversy arose from two things: ego-struggles and simple ignorance of the facts.
The egotism and judgment in the American Private Waldorf schools is highly unfortunate. Though I believe a Waldorf education, as Steiner envisioned (not just for rich, white, perfectly behaved children) has a rich curriculum - probably the best out there - in the first few minutes this video shows the issues with many of the educators in a Waldorf school.
The first point (in the video) it makes is to let you know why a Waldorf school is superior to any other education and blah blah blah...were so much better than you...blah blah blah...I just hear the rumble of Steiner rolling over in his grave every time the Pharisaical attitude rears it's ugly head.
During this discussion Raphael-a self professed long time anthroposophist, has said the schools need to open up, and that he is trying to reform the movement from the inside. It will be a hard job- anyone who has seen the "discussion" on the forum Anthroposophy Tommorrow will see just how entrenched in madness these people are; they have discussed some of Steiner's less public beliefs, here's one from tuesday-"Further Guidelines.. about Michael's supersensible preparations for his earthmission"
There are several forums on the internet who have been threatened with legal action by anthroposophists eager to supress parents telling their bad experiences of steiner waldorf;they monitor the internet continually, and either pretend to be poarents themselves, and counter any criticism, or post endless links to their own websites,which do not give a clear or total picture about anthroposophy, but obscure Steiner's true belief and ommit reams of unsanitory ideas. They harras & threaten critics
Some children come through waldorf education unscathed and do well;the tendency is to believe thises children would do well anywhere- and suceed inspite oif their education rather than because of it.Most parewnts at Steine waldorf are totally unaware of the anthroposophical belief the entire pedagogy hinges on; the teachers and admisistratores are taught during training not to let on until - if ever- parents are spiritually ready.Anthroposophists go to great measures to prevent negative comments
Wonderfully well-rounded. My daughter(high school graduate of the East Bay Waldorf School in El Sobrante, CA) is now 22, going to school to become an architect, while working for a local architect 36 hours a week. Every day I am happy for the outstanding schooling she had with the Waldorf curriculum.
Some children aren't affected much by the anthroposophy which informs the whole curriculum; their parents often don't realise they are being manipulated, that the schools are in place for purposes other than educating- they are to help the children incarnate; the schools are there to promote anthroposophy,and is seen as the Michaelic spiritual task. The children are vessels,
stages of evolution, who are directed towards spiritual truths in order to further man's spiritual developpment.
I have red some of your comments... wow, It looks like you have really something against Waldorf Education. I see no further point in trying to convince you of what I have experienced. You seem to be stuck with some things like reincarnation, obscure purposes, super species and so on... sorry for you. At least in this part of the world, Waldorf Education is something far from being a cult or a sect. It looks like you have written a book on this topic, let me know the name.
I definitely experienced this for my daughter, and would have loved it for myself too....I guess that's one of the reasons I choose to send her through this schooling K - 12, graduating 2004.
I like your open approach , and feel you have an upward struggle in your attempt to heave Waldorf into the arena of honesty and self examination, particularly in the area of root race hierarchy, and what the education and camphill communities are truly about. I'm glad you're "hovering above" the waldorf system... as an arch angel I pressume?I read POF/SA in part again too- the quote stands absolutely- Steiner's "freedom" has the constraints of the starting point of spiritiual worlds as reality.
Raphael- when the "critics" of waldorf education realise how far they have been duped by these gentle speaking apologists for occult spiritual science anthroposophy, and read the more far fetched and frankly absurd ideas of their guru Steiner, yes, they do speak far more eruditely than for instance, self professed experts on websites built to promote waldorf education; I never metioned Swartz's name- he is very clever, clever in selling his belief and pseudo religion.
Swartz is also clever in not mentioning anthroposophy in his promotional advertising material, and clever in gagging the voices of those who don't believe in Steiner's spiritual clairvoyant tenets. Staudenmaier for instance, knows a great deal more than many anthroposophists who try, and fail miserably, to argue with him; their spinning around in circles can only arouse pity, as he patently understands anthroposophy better than they. I'm glad to discuss with you here, and admire your honesty.
I don't think the critics of Waldorf are sophmoric- ironically, the critics are far far better versed in Steiner's writing, ideas and work than many of the self professed anthroposophists who try to argue against them; they are often tied in knots by critics. As for some of the websites which profess to tell the layman about "the spiritual in man and the spiritual in the universe" they are often totally incomprehensible and seemingly written by morons.Excuse me but it sometimes seems so.
That's an amazing comment. One moment you lament that you and legions of others are not given the proper information about waldorf- the bait and change arguement only to turn around and claim that critics are Better informed than Eugene Schwartz and others about the foundations of Waldorf. So which is it?
Just to be clear before I am charged again with crimes unrelated to me. I am not an apologist for Waldorf international any more than Mr. T you re an apologist for COS international. I have experienced directly very damaged Waldorf schools with damaged power structures damaging families and fought much more than you or others. I am infamous as a Waldorf critic from the inside. I consider myself an experienced, informed veteran of Waldorf, neither inside nor outside but hovering above.
In answer to the tranlation of The title Philosophy of Freedom to Philosophy of Spiritual activity, as far as I'm aware he said that "Freiheit" as he used it would be better translated as "spiritual activity."
"It is felt that people are free, with their value as individuals enhanced, if they can always form their own opinion. The problem is,
how does this opinion develop?"
Rudolf Steiner: Lecture 9, Berlin, 6th January 1914 from THE FIFTH
My glancing through POF ( I will save you from quoting the book) just reassures me of my own interpretation that Freedom is exactly what Steiner meant to say when he said it and spiritual activity is -still- the means to attaining it. Your quote is wholly irrelevant in this context, sorry.
Just to clarify waldorf really sucks. I went there for several years and learned nothing at all they teach nothing hell half the kids couldn't in the fifth grade. Is this what u want for your friends and family please if you know someone who is considering waldorf tell them to avoid it like a plague thank u that is all.
And don't get your hopes up raphy I have not yet begun to bash.
No I agree. I think it is clear that the "subject" Waldorf is unhealthy for you. I would suggest you stop visiting Waldorf sites so regularly. You will feel better. Time heals.
(cont) and "impulses" - spiritual conscious experience - or intuition.But raphael- you may be so immersed in your Steiner world, that you may not realise that many people don't have this same starting point; don't belive in spiritual activity or clairvoyant reading of the akashik record.I realise that you do think the Waldorf schools should be open about this belief system, honest about their tenets, so families don't get drawn to something they believe is an entirely diferent education
The Philosophy of freedom was re named by Steiner with spiritual activity replacing freedom, but obviously it's not so simple; Steiner's interpretation of various words are different aren't they?- intuition is spiritual consciousness in his view,he wrote"Freedom must be attributed to the human will, in so far as the will realizes purely ideal intuitions." While he rejects the constraints of monotheism, he regards freedom as being wrapped up with spiritual activity, evolution of man...
T, you indicate "The Philosophy of freedom was re named by Steiner with spiritual activity replacing freedom, " Really?
The original title Die Philosophie der Freiheit translates as Spiritual Activity or Intutive Thinking in English but I am not sure Steiner ever translated his own books into English. I am not a Steiner scholor, but I believe it's an English translation not a re-definition. But that's just my fading memory.
The pieces I posted in quotation marks were from this article by Ian Robinson- The Rudolf Steiner Threat To Victorian Education. Raphael- I do not have scientology as a favourite- where did you get that idea from? I think my profile page is empty. Wrong information. But I do share the computer.I'm glad we agree that Steiner schools are about moulding children for their next incarnation- you see, parents aren't told an iota of this are they? They are deceived.
Well, of all the anthroposophists it has been my misfortune to try to hold a reasonable debate with, I have to say, Raphael has been comparatively open and straight; I don't hold his beliefs against him; my objection is the lies and deceipt of the Steiner Waldorf organisation he argues for; and their race beliefs; their superioty; their belief that it is ok to lie, because their spitiual cause is so great, it trancends all else.So a few parents are cross? We still have the children to incarnate
It is patronising, and very common actually, to belittle people who do not believe in anthroposophy, and who think Steiner waldorf schools should be open about it; it is not "trouble making", it is trying to get open discussion and honesty. Anthroposophists are not able to deal with critics. Why is this? What are they afraid of? Way back in this discussion Raphael, you agreed that schools should be open about anthroposophy. Thankyou for being one of the few anthroposophists to actually DISCUSS.
"what Steiner education does is to try to slot all children into the pigeon hole designed for them by Rudolf Steiner, within which there is only a small amount of room to move. Human destiny is seen as moving along pre-ordained paths and the teacher's role is to keep children on the fairly straight and relatively narrow as defined by Steiner." Ian Robinson
I actually agree. The human destiny we share is becoming whole with our longing for Freedom and Love. Our current modern epoch is appropriate and timely to approach this Steinarian "developmental theory". I agree that there exists an admitted Waldorf existential goal which does recognize the spiritual body, reincarnation and Christ-centered renewal. This UNIQUE perspective is by it's very nature "pigeon" hole, discriminating and paradoxically non corporal -neither Montessori nor Reggio Emilia.
"Many people when they first hear about Steiner 'Education' are very impressed, as I was myself. The rhetoric is quite compelling and the ideas superficially attractive. However as soon as one delves behind the rhetoric into the practice, and into the mishmash of ratbag ideas that give rise to the practice, one realises that Rudolf Steiner is really bad news for most kids, and that Steiner 'Education' must be rejected if we care about children."
Mr.T. you quote " 'Steiner 'Education' must be rejected if we care about children." That would mean ther is an alternative. Describe the alternative. I have not seen longevity in free association theories such as Summerhills experiment, supported by william Ayers.I am sceptical of Scientology's "technology" ideas for children. Montessori lacks a congruency I find throughout Steiners colllected works. Taking Reggio videos of children to discuss later? That sounds like 1950's racial hygiene! Yikes
Mr.T, "The rhetoric is quite compelling and the ideas superficially attractive." I disagree. The connection is non-manipulative, genuine, compelling and uncommonly common. It is an appeal to our authenticity and it is the spark of our innovative spirit. It is not by chance that the US with her pioneering spirit sees such a growth in interest for Waldorf. It is a recognition of the timeless relevance of Waldorf curriculum while preserving the childs inner freedom - the antithesis of superficial.
"This education is essentially grounded on the recognition of the child as a spiritual being, with a varying number of incarnations behind him, who is returning at birth into the physical world, into a body that will be SLOWLY MOULDED into a usable instrument by the soul-spiritual forces he brings with him." Rudolf Steiner
Steiner Waldorf schools are in place to mould the children, to see them into their next icarnation.
Raphael- if you think parentsdwho have been lied to about anthroposophy, haven't "tried to talk" to the teachers, you are either disingenious or simply naive- these people do not discuss- they have a wan spiritual glaze, but are incapable or cleverly practised in refusing to answer about anthroposophy.
You talk about freedom- in anthroposophical terms, as I'm sure you're aware, "freedom" actually means "spiritual activity"- remember- you are talking to someone who has read Steiner..
Is this because the book title "freedom" was renamed "spiritual activity"? I am not sure where this definition comes from. Please explain. And I agree that there is a lot of waxing anthroposophical here and there at schools as soon as one is called into account, I am not an apologist for Waldorf.I have tried to reform it for the last ten years as have a handful of others who love Waldorf. I would also "opine" perhaps that most of the criticisms on the Waldorf List are sophmoric and unhelpful.
Raphael, your replies seem to be 1/2 to newhoff, so I'm slighly confused. Does the sentence "some children do" reply to mine about children incarnating properly? I also am amused you keep bringing up scientology- you're the one making comparisons...Also, in TYPICAL anthroposophical style- you miss the point; the schools are secretive about the central anthroposophical belief guiding them; teachers are trained with anthroposophy- and it is used for all decisions about the children.
I am comparing Scientology with Anthroposophy with YOU because you have Scientology as a favorite site so I suppose you are familiar with their tactics and may be able to research the subject yourself. Of course I could be mistaken. Please inform.
Yes I know common response, "waldorf isn't for everyone" well really neither is a cult. I am VERY anti waldorf I agree with almost nothing they have to say. They would take you and put you in a bubble of fantasy and act like the real world didn't exist and everyone had that annoying passive agressive stance at all times.
Newhoff, Clearly you have problems with aggression so I will just point out that I am replying to another poster who was actually making considerable points while you are threatening to "punch" people. Your silly posting should stop with now. I'm finished.
When did I threaten that? Please tell me. And you seem to have security issues with your waldorf idealism because if you were so sure about it you wouldn't need to so fanaticly defend it. And YOUR silly little posting should stop with now I'm out of lies to defend my cult with I shall go home and confront the book of steiner to appease my great lord. Go sacrifice a goat or something.
Newhoff, As I said I am not an idealist- quite the opposite. I have an ivy league education, and have studied Waldorf as an educational approach since 1986. So you have missed many marks. To quote you "You mean socially demented every one who is "properly trained anthro whatever is either, so shy they won't speak, so ignorant you can't talk to them, or so arrogant you want to beat them" If there is a distinction between punch and beat I would enjoy hearing your Waldorf educated reply.
Sorry but I'll give you my state educated reply because I have shunned waldorf teachings. There is no difference in the word but there is one in context but since you missed it I'll be happy to explain. I said you want to beat them that would be a state of mind not a threat. A threat is I will kill you and your children with sharp knives that is a threat do ya see now??
In stead of having a good education waldorf offers BULL CRAP.
Instead of giving you proper state required tests waldorf lets you glide through dumb as a post. I used to go to walforf school I hated every second of it. The one in NYC wasn't that bad but when I transfered to HVS I wanted to execute myself waldorf is a cult there's no two ways about it. Christ at HVS there was stuff going on worthy of the title "hate crime" but the admins there just loved trying to sweep it under the rug.
No need for admiration for what you condescendingly call my enthusiasm;you may have 20yrs of submersion in esoteric madness-I live in the real world, without fairies, gnomes and karma. And it's beautiful, true and free of pseudo religious poppycock. I wish you well in yours, and however fierce the need is to drag people into your spiritual haze, I hope you look long and hard at the honesty of what withholding truth means. Children are involved. It's not right. I'm not alone in thinking this
I am not trying to drag anyone into Waldorf- quite the contrary. I wish troublemakers would find a real worthy cause and fight for that instead. I think that Waldorf and more importantly anthroposophy has to be chosen freely- Philosophy of Freedom, a good read friend. I think Waldorf is positively OVERCROWDED with TV Shoppers. And the real world you live in is obviously obsessed with Waldorf, a bit I don't understand. Please do feel free to walk away. Freely.
If the call to battle is against immoral organizations who deceive children, create a spiritual haze and relish religious poppycock,I could nominate no better example than the "Church" of Scientology. I think the reader need read up a bit on what that group enjoys engaging in and then return afterwards with what I believe will surely prove to be a "new perspective". But then only after a fresh reading of Steiner's Philosophy of Freedom.
The main anthroposophical ideas within the schools are that reincarnation, spiritual worlds, karma etc are scientific fact. These things are usually regarded as religious, but anthroposophists reject the idea that it is a religion, because they believe the truth of its existance. What are the "unrealistic expectations" you talk mention? My question to you would be why hide the anthroposophy the schools are rooted in? If it was open, the schools would attract people with the same mindset.
How can you say the waldorf curriculum isn't based on Steiner's spiritual ideas? Who's ideas and beliefs is anthroposophy based on then? Steiner said on numerous occasions that anthroposophy would be in the schools and that this would be kept from people. Teacher training involves compulsory reading of Steiner, with barely any other pedagogy; the hope is that teachers will grow to become anthroposophists, at least step onto the path. The curriculum uses anthroposophical belief and ideas.
The schools can help these children incarnate and be directed towards the spiritual, the parents are superfluous( particularly since the children chose them in the first place), so just continue to sell the education as creative, holistic, gentle, tell the parents that Steiner is difficult, smile, be spiritual,and avoid all discussion about anthroposophical belief. Gag internet chat boards, babysit wikipedia, set up websites and youtube videos of knitting and watercolours, suck in more innocents
Yes the children do. In my experience the most disturbing backtalking is hardly done by those FEW in Waldorf who are properly trained in anthroposophy, but rather by those many who are quite purposely UNTRAINED. The logic there being that Steiner is so old fashioned he needed a new boost of modernity. I do not see many anthroposophists who are struggling with humility bothering to throw molitov cocktails at others.
See what I mean you proved my point. Properly trained?? You mean socially demented every one who is "properly trained anthro whatever is either, so shy they won't speak, so ignorant you can't talk to them, or so arrogant you want to beat them.
You say these expectations, in real terms are unrealistic. No. All that has to be said, is that this education is based on the clairvoyant viusions of rudolf Steiner, who believed a host of extraordinary things, the central one being reincarnation, the existance of spirit worlds, angels, gnomes and demons, and that the education is completely and totally focussed around this. Your comment about unrealistic expectations translates as - no ordinary person could understand.Anthroposophists KNOW.
My children are young- they had anthroposophical decisions made about them, by a cult like religious belief system while deceiving us; if scientology had been the belief system, I would be trying to get the truth from them, but what a strange thing to say! My familiy's connection is to Steiner waldorf.So- you have to see videos which hide the central belief of Steiner waldorf, and when you're seduced, Schwartz might let on- I think you've dug yourself a hole there! Typically anthroposophical.
The purpose of Waldorf is for the child to become themselves. Steiner suggested that the true self has a spiritual component (so did M. Montessori but no complaint there). So in that you are correct Steiner DID base his worldview on direct experiences of the spiritual world but this is NOT the foundation of the Waldorf curriculum. That is exactly why people who have NO IDEA about Steiner can still work at Waldorf schools (and a majority do!) never mentioning a thought from Steiners knowledge.
I am taking your criticisms one at a time to better understand what you are really trying to say. It sounds like a sort of buffe mentality you have. People are impressed or "seduced" by the nice colours and soon they are deceived by the very same people they previously admired. I suggest that those critics talk to those teachers who are deceiving them about the deception they perceive.
These videos on youtube. including the ones by Eugene Swartz, are evangelical in their promotion of steiner waldorf- all with NO mention of the underlying religion/spiritual science. Now isn't that strange? Eugene Schwartz blocks comments on his films here too; but that isn't unusual- anthroposophists spend an inordinate ammount of energy blocking discussion about waldorf; what are they afraid of? People telling their experiences at the schools? people reading Steiner's crazy ideas and beliefs?
Now if you had taken your criticism and directed it towards a truly dishonest religious system which tries to dehumanize while brainwashing like the Church of Scientology, well then I would agree. That COS group has a long history of cheating, lying, stealing, intimidating, blacklisting and any number of immoral actions against truth-seekers who come to them for help. Now a full throated criticism of that group would be more believable than against Waldorf, in the terms you have given here.
But the anthroposophists continue to evade and even deny that Steiner's root race belief is racist!They defend it with spurious response, they continue to publish the works of his which are at best ridiculous and worst contemptuous.Answer one question- honestly- why don't the schools or camphill mention anthroposophy? Or reincarnation? Clairvoyance? I think you know why.Of course I'm asking for honstey- what else could you imagine my motives would be? my children had choices made about them
It's interesting that you think I, or any other critic, want "satisfaction" by telling the truth about anthroposohy in Steiner waldorf. The system is based on dishonesty, in the guise of spreading or opening up spirituality. It is dishonest; you wrote about "more disclosure" I think earlier- translated that "honesty" and openness about the true nature of anthroposophy, and all it's spiritual occult science beliefs.The root race ideas have to be addressed too, and not brushed away, as anthros do.
The root race idea is no more paradoxical than any other Steiner idea. It is commonly mentioned in order to horrify people. I think your arguments would sound more genuine if I understood what you want. I do not believe you are defending "honesty" in Waldorf schools. Or perhaps you haven't fully developed your ideas yet. I have 20 years experience of Waldorf in two different countries. While I admire your enthusiasm I don't see the relevance in real terms.
Rapahael- anthroposohy is not available to parents UNLESS they are deemed "ready" to accept it, step onto "the path" as far as i can see; mostly, it is kept from them; not "at the first visit" as you say, but continually. Teachers are taught to deflect from interest or questions, and focus on the craft etc to distract. The anthroposophical kernel of the whole steiner curruculum is played down continually, as are the anthroposophical reasons for all decisions made in the classroom.
This "deemed ready" criticism I have long since discounted. Anyone even half interested in Steiner or any other subject has simply to open a book. Parents waiting to be spoon-fed the history of education for lack of genuine interest, I think not.
I went to a Waldorf School from K-12, and I will be the first to tell you that it is not a cult. It may have its roots in anthroposophy, but this is not forced on (or even taught to) the students. I was taught to be a free thinking, loving, kind, open hearted and creative individual. I have not gone on to become a raving anthroposophist, but rather an excellent student at a well known 4 year art and design school. Each family must judge for themselves weather Waldorf is the right choice.
You are wrong to assume that the people who have had bad experiences at Steiner waldorf are few- the schools and movement try to imply this is the case, but it isn't. Our family had a ollective 8/9 yrs experience, and i personally know of many many people who's times echo ours;it is actually quite extraordinary how many people sa tyhe same things about steiner school. So you are wrong to belittle this;it is a great failing not to regognise and try to do something about it; typical self deception
I want to understand you. You are concerned that Steiner's spiritual research is not available to parents on their first visit. And this deception has given you - and others - 8/9 years of bad experiences. I am simply asking you one question: what do YOU want to happen for you to be satisfied?
Anthroposophists and waldorf promoters are nbot hot on "facts". Remeber, they believe gnomes and angels are real, clairvoyant visions are fact, Atlantis as a real place where man evolved( at the same time as dinasaurs), man's predecessors were spirit beings in a jelly like substance on the moon, "primitive" black races should have died out, Lucifer and Ahriman communicate through tv and computers,the heart doesn't pump blood around the body; for anthroposophists , this is all fact..it goes on..
Bo Dahlin, on who's research you are basing statistics about Steiner education, happens to be a member of the master's curriculum commitee at the Steiner College, and an external eurythmy examiner; the report was privately funded...(presumably by Waldorf and the anthroposophy movement), not exactly what could be called an UNBIASED study really is it? Anthroposophists and Waldorf suppoerters a continually quote "studies" which upon further examination, are usually done by themselves; cover ups
Interestingly,you are the one who mentions brainwashing, - I haven't anyway.Statistics actually show that many many waldorf students are anything buit well rounded; they often drift, and find fitting into the world difficult; transition to higher education is hard; many of out children's conbtempories cannot read at 12/13 years old. the only "good" statiustics and research are by internal anthroposphical organisations; the Dalin report being one- isn't Bo dahlin an anthroposophist?
If Waldorf schools have nothing to hide about their anthroposophical core, why don't they mention it in the prospectuses, websites and school promotional material? Why do they lie? It is this, among other aspects, such as following the visions of one supposedly charismatic leader, talk of "outsiders", fear of the modern world, different meanings for common words, friendly fishing behaviour, etc which move it towards being a cult. The fact you seem blind to this only emphasises this.
I can not find proof that students or parents are brainwashed in a cult after years of this claim. No parents are forced to stay at a school. There is no monetary gain for any individuals. There is no worship. No godhead. No leader. Is anthroposophy a spiritual movement that Waldorf is based upon? Absolutely! Is it a cult? I already suggested you search anthroposophy and scientology comparison to better understand that Waldorf qualifies as neither a religion nor as a cult. Facts are facts.
Waldorf is an anthroposophical praxis not a seminary, so when a form is used in the class it is used for the spiritual content, not to influence the student in any single way. This fruit is found later as former Waldorf students are statistically more open minded than other former students. They have found themselves. They are consistently more well rounded, better informed, non judgemental and attractive in the job market.
As a student it seems a stretch to say that Waldorf teaches religion or witchcraft or whatever as students are in the process, not observing it. They may way it is "weird", but that is not bad. That is why I am sceptical about the few critics who claim to be former students and base their arguments on internet surfing more than direct experience.
It seems that many waldorf students and former Waldorf students enjoyed their time at Waldorf. This supports Bo Dahlins findings. His study is a scientific study so I am not sure why you claim it is disingenuous... The claim of some unsatisfied former students (who apparently only went to Waldorf a few years out of many years a various schools) seem to site Waldorf critic lists to support their claims.
The whole point about anthroposophy in schools- as Steiner says- is irt will be in schools wahtever. It is COVERT. Parents are deliberately deceived. Teachers trained in UK at least, are taught to divert parents attention towards the art and craft and not discuss anthroposophy. "Steiner is difficult" seems to be the usual get out phrase. Our daughter was made to use her left hand because it is seen as a karmic wealkness; one was singled out perhaps because of thir dark roots. Root races?
Ahh- the Dahlin report. It was written by anthroposophists or people VERY predisposed towards anthroposophy-Professor Bo Dahlin is a member of the curriculum comittee at the Masters programme at the Rudolf Steiner College in Oslo. Professor Dahlin is also the external examiner of the Intgrated Masters Programme in the Eurythmy Masters degree." Not exactly unbiased.
Yes - interesting discussing with you. Glad to see you agree about the lack of openness.
I find it all fascinating and extraordinary. But the biggest scandal is the lying, deceiving and misleading that the anthroposophists do. They obviously want to cover up the occult spiritual centre of the schools and education, but only a few admit that anthroposophy is at the heart of the schools. At least you traphael, are trying to explain some of the anthroposophical ideas at the core of the education; many deny they are there atall. Schools websites rarely mention anthroposophy
Well this is an interesting back and forth. I agree that anthroposophy is not mentioned at Waldorf schools, as a rule.And I agree that mentioning five basic books about anthroposophy to new parents should be an open policy to help transparancy. Parents should know exactly what Waldorf is based upon. The study was done by professor Bo Dahlin from the University of Karlstad. I think the proof of the quality is in visiting Waldorf yourself.
I do not think that many Waldorf schools are overtly anthroposophical. In fact we who venerate RS feel that Waldorf schools the world over need to get back to their roots, stop growing in mass and focus on quality, not quantity.I agree that there are many weak insecure people who work within the Waldorf movement but I do not think that reflects on Waldorf as much as personal failures. There are also mostly very enlightened people working in Waldorf schools.
I'm also interested in the significance of the advent spiral. This symbolises the dawn of the new age- Steiner said"One spiral of the sign of Cancer indicates the end of the Atlantean culture; the other, the beginning of the Aryan culture. Our ancestors thus perceived in the heavens the outward sign for the rise of the new Aryan culture." ...
The schools don't mention this do they? They don't tell anyone it's a ritualistic occult style mystical event do they? They simply call it a "festival"
Raphael, I'm interested in your comment below about the Christ event. Can you explain this a bit more? Why do anthroposophists consider this to be so important? And why is St Michael so important? Is it because you are part of the spiritual Michaelic school? Who conquored the demon, (or St George who conquored the dragon?) Isn't he the leading spirit of our time?You meet him btwn this life & the next. These 300 years are where anthroposophists are serving him in order to save humanity?
Who conducted the study of Steiner ewaldorf students please? You have mentioned these "studie" before, but failed to say who carried them out.I know that there are many "studies" by anthroposophical organisations or those affiliated with them, which look bona fide, but are really a part of the mass publicity machine of steiner waldorf to sell themseves as something they aren't.
Have you noticed how many people have been commenting on these posts who are agreeing about this?
It is risable that you describe anthroposophy as non religious; a belief system whose central themes are reincarnation, spirit worlds,souls, the existance of angels, christ, St Michael, St John,Lucifer etc etc.The morning verses are prayers- Steiner himself said so. The fact that anthroposophists believe angels, spirit worlds,and reincarnation are scientific fact does not make it science as oppose to religion; it just makes it bonkers. What other issues are on the waldorf critics discussions?
Of course I agree that people should acquaint themselves with the Plans critics group because there is some merit to some of what is shared there. Much though comes from people with many other issues than just Waldorf if you know what I mean.
There is a study on post graduate Waldorf students which utterly contradicts Plans/Critics image of Waldorf students as lackluster, old-fashioned, brainwashed, manipulated, victimized lambs on the alter of a hopeless cult which has as its goal not the education of the child towards freedom but the brainwashing of the family towards anthroposophy and blurring separation between church and state. I hope readers will find time to review the study for themselves.
If you want to read more about families at Steiner waldorf school, look at the artcles on plans waldof critics- there are many stories that give a different picture from the one the school's would like you to see.
I would add my own research- based on our family's experience of Steiner school, and a great many other people.All creative activity copied, restrictive use of colour, technique, lines not allowed, all pictures look the same.This could only ever be considered "art" in Steiner circles.Don't you think these spiritual aspects of Steiner schools should be made clear in the schoool's promotional material Raphael? Rather than ignored? This is surely very deceptive; and you are propogating that.
Steiner's "science" is based entirely on his clairvoyant visions- his "reading" of the Akarshik record- and all anthroposophically based theories- waldorf education, biodynamic agriculture,anthroposophical medicine, stem from this- the clairvoyant visions of one man. This seems quite cult like to me- to follow one man's so called visions.
BTW- these "studies- who conducted them? anthroposophical organisations? That always seems to be the only people funding "studies" about Steiner schools.
i think waldorf is great even im not really into this whole anthro thing. and i must say, that this is a bit creapy. sorry my friends, no offence, but it's a bit too alternative to give the unknown people the real impression how it is like to be part of waldorf schools. it's much easier to do an exchange if you attend a waldorfschool than others, ¬hing is more succesful to learn a language than actually living in that particular country.
and i can dance my name&i did it on this school too
Quote from Steiner teacher, trained Emerson College "there's quite a bit more and most is kept fairly secret from parents and kids.I don't really have time to go into it right now. But there are some disturbing things concerning racial supremity, disabilities, views of the soul... BTW I have trained as a Steiner teacher so have gone through much of the material and it was a huge shock to me."
Quote from Steiner teacher "There are the racist teachings which state that the different races stand at different levels of moral development. We pass through each race in our reincarnations, black being primitive, child like and at the bottom of the pile. When we reach white we have achieved the pinacle of human and moral development.Teachers are advised to tell parents as little as possible apart from the 'nice' stuff, such as creativity etc..
The schools deliberately cover up the anthroposohic - it is part of the teachers training to do so..If you are told it's all about knitting and wooden gnomes, and find it is an education to pepare your child's soul for reincarnation,steiner trained teacher quote- "ready for a future time when supernatural beings manifest themselves.Teachers are trained to direct kids' attention away from the "apparent world" to the many concealed "levels of truth" in order to empower the human soul.
I love Waldorf and miss it so much. I just wish my family could afford to send me back!
andyf103 1 week ago
I constantly hear my fellow Waldorfians (yes, I am a waldorfian) complain that people think we are part of a cult. I had a wonderful experience as a Waldorf student, and I often have a difficult time explaining myself and Waldorf education in general. I hate to say it, but this video really isn't helping.
shampoogirl11 4 weeks ago
I personally have been going to a Waldorf school since 5th grade and I truly believe that waldorfs education is far better then public schools out there. At waldorf I feel like I am actuly learning something and that I will succeed in life. Just thought I would let you all know that the graduating class of last year in the high school, every student in that class was excepted into a 4 year college.
lilsmileygurl37 4 months ago
Why do I feel like I am being hypnotized? o_o don't like this video....
erzan 4 months ago
The thing I noticed about the teenagers is how relaxed and yet super-focused and in-the-moment they are. That's a rare combination of qualities in a teen.
xander7ful 5 months ago
i think the reason i had such a hard time in high school at Waldorf was that i joined Waldorf in 7th grade. It really is a huge shift from elementary to high school. You go from a really lax and innocent environment to a what i felt was incredibly rigid and challenging.
biotchgodless 6 months ago
The public school system has been set up to fail over the past 10 years (especially with NCLB), so that the wealthy primarily, will not have their taxes going towards the common good of all children, benefiting the whole rather than the few.
I chose to send my daughter to a Waldorf School K - 12, but I also believe in free public education and I am against any in support of vouchers, or robbing the public system of its money. Instead, the public system needs more creativity, less testing.
Elin48 1 year ago
or home school in your neighborhood with you and or others for free and develop the same idea and focus!
evelutionofone 1 year ago
no...this kind of freedom has no direction.
Elin48 1 year ago
@Elin48
That is the beauty of freedom it can be whatever one chooses, for that is true freedom--no rules ;) unless one must have rules for they are free to choose
everyone gets to choose "freely"...
xo
evelutionofone 1 year ago
Our Waldorf school is wonderful. My son is very well-rounded.
It comes down to would you believe. I believe in New Thought/ Interfaith concepts and they have served me well in my life.
Blessings to you all!
Spirit1Love 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Why can't Waldorf be banned? By miseducating people, Waldorf shcools ruin the lives of thousands of people. Governemts should be aware of this danger and eliminate anhtroposophy and waldorfism.
bolshevikML 2 years ago
@bolshevikML
why miseducating?? In which ways does it ruin the lives of its students???
joleniz69 1 year ago
@bolshevikML waldorf cant be banned because people have the right to choose. why the fuck would you think that it is miseducating people. Its not hurting you so shut the fuck up!
deskmix 11 months ago
It is really nice if the teachers could take some time fore everyone and help them. When the play with all together in school and have fun that is great at Waldorf but i think Waldorf is stuck in 1919 waldorf mixed with modern things but taking care of children would be perfekt.
MrMorrigan 2 years ago
And I have had children in one of the oldest schools , visited several others, and have friends who have had children in at least 4 schools. How about you?
100 yrs of practising deceipt; Steiner himself advocated keeping quiet about anthroposophy, as do teachers today, because they know ( and say- I've heard them) that this would put people off.
It must be a very stressful business being economical with truth to parents, and heaven knows how it affects karma, even in a spiritual way.......
mondoboxo 2 years ago 2
I dont go to waldorf anymore thank god
But after I left I found out people called them waldorks
reeses471 2 years ago 2
Read Steiner's work and see what the teachers read for their training. Anthroposophy governs choices in the classroom, from the round corners, colours, way of painting to the Norse myths you study. Anthroposphy is a belief system with "laws" which most teachers are guide by. Your academic success doesn't prove this education based on spiritual science is any good, it means you are bright! Far more children are failed by these schools; often they are taught by amateurs on their personal journey
mondoboxo 2 years ago
mondoboxo, your "knowledge" of Anthroposophy is rather shallow to nonexistent.
Mercuryrules 2 years ago
Mercuryrules, are you talking about esoteric knowledge? Is that why you put it in inverted commas? If one reads Steiner, and dissects it in a rational way in order to make some sense of anthroposophical beliefs which are used in the classroom and at camphill communities, one can come to an understanding of it.; through study. If, as I suspect from your commas, you mean arcanum, secret esoteric knowledge,of those who follow the intended path of initiation, then I'm glad I'm not deluded.
mondoboxo 2 years ago
Anthroposphy is about knowledge and its' aquisition, not "beliefs".
Mercuryrules 2 years ago
mercuryrules, have you read Steiner's work much? Have you read the lectures and books where he mentions the "laws" of anthroposophy? Where he states so many of his "clairvoyant" visions as "truths", or states them as "facts"? My understanding would be, rationally, that in order to obtain this "knowledge" of yours, you would need to "believe" Steiner's clairvoyant visions, such as the existence of higher worlds, that reincarnation is fact, etc etc.
mondoboxo 2 years ago
I've been studying Anthroposophy for 20+ years since studying engineering at uni.
If you pick up at textbook on mathematics, you will also encounter given "laws", which can actually be investigated. (should you trouble yourself to do so)
Mercuryrules 2 years ago
Well , the difference is whether clairvoyant visions, higher worlds, reincarnation, karma, the reality of angels, atlantis, man's prelife on Jupiter and the moon or gnomes are actually worth investigating. But my jip is with using this supernatural nonsense on children and people with learning difficulties as some kind of experiment ( and being deceptive about it). I'm really not interested and have no reason to judge anyone on their beliefs - but the schools should be honest, they are not
mondoboxo 2 years ago
Those things would only be worth investigating if a person wanted to try to come to a definative, rational, thought-out judgement as to whether they might be true or not.
Experiment? Waldorf will soon be approaching 100 years of practice.
To accuse the schools of dishonesty is just laughable, how many of these schools have you visited? how many of the teachers have you talked to?
Mercuryrules 2 years ago
Mercury- a" rational, thought-out judgement as to whether they might be true or not." Whether gnomes, angels, Atlantis, karma etc might be true? Rational? Ahem, this is my point; believe what you want, but if you're basing an education, an agriculture system, social cae on this suernatural occult belief, at least have the decency to be transparent. hey- you might even attract people who believe in it too! Rather than hoping to save humanity by drawing in the unsuspecting few.
100 yrs, so what?
mondoboxo 2 years ago
Most Waldorf teaching colleges require one to have a B.A. before they are considered for admissions. The teacher program is 2 to 4 years depending on what area of study.
I've found a lot of bad teachers in the Public school. Being informed and researching the school is key
Spirit1Love 1 year ago
@Spirit1Love what is your criteria of a bad teacher in public school? And how have you come to this realization?
Elin48 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Spirit1Love what is your criteria of a bad teacher in public school? And how have you come to this realization?
Elin48 1 year ago
Waldorf system is based on the occult with a very limited curriculum and lack of accountability. Pervasively religious and squandering taxpayers funds. Beware you'll be duped into fairy land!
Korcula238 2 years ago
1. Waldorf Steiner schools are not based on the 'occult', theyre based on the teachings of the founder, Rudolf Steiner. Although not directly based on any religion he believed in religious morals taught by religion (in my opinion the most significant part of religion)
2. Steiner schools have a wider curriculum than many state schools, helping to broaden both views and education (teaching basics like maths, english and history along with language and subjects such as eurithmy.
careyisthebest 2 years ago
3.steiner schools are not a drain on taxpayers funds, if anything the persistently increasing decline of standards in state schools are. in many countries steiner schools are privately funded, leaving the bill with the parents (showing their trust in both the state and steiner educational system). these schools do not have a set fee as Steiner believed that everyone has a right to education, people only pay what their salary will allow them.
careyisthebest 2 years ago
but hey, what do i know.
i only spent eleven years in steiner education before entering a state run school only to enter into every top set, achieve 4 A-stars at GCSE with all the rest A's, most of which GCSE work i was capable of doing before i left steiner education, four years previously.
your right, it is a 'fairy land', but you know what i think its still the best and most successful form of education around today.
careyisthebest 2 years ago
Waldorf is based on occult "religion" anthroposophy. Enter at your own risk. A type of indoctrination
mondoboxo 2 years ago
how can it be a religion? it only teaches beliefs and morals, not the belief in any religious aspect. its open to everyone of any, or no, religion.
careyisthebest 2 years ago
I miss Waldorf.
QuiteRiQuite 2 years ago
There's no spirituality here worth for gnostic children. It sounds more like atheistic buddhism than hiduism which suck too. Reincarnation is a myth imposed upon man by those "Allmighty" Daevas just as the thoughts of hell and heaven. Yes there's "nirvana" and there's eternal Fravashi and there's our akhamenidian+sassanian tradition backing us. Homosexuality and heterosexuality are both ok if not doing anal. But any gods that don't see the better of the progress of man we reject. Khwedotas rules
ShahMashya 2 years ago
Ban Waldorf now!
bolshevikML 2 years ago
This page gets some
intence waldorf bashing
u no waldorf is ace man
so DEAL WITH IT :L
and damnit
just got make some wool or something
WALDORF STYLE FOR ALL THE KIDS lols
harley1211 2 years ago
Is this an example of how grammar is taught at Waldorf schools?
jimeverson 2 years ago
There is an interesting thread from the Times. It has three people who trained as Steiner teachers. Karatecat, Lyehemian and further on , page 9 seamist - all trained as Steiner teachers , all saying similar things.- cult-like, teachings about race, karma etc. Saying they were told not to tell parents about anthroposophy.... Are they all lying? The link doesn't post, it's at community tes forums - the thread is called Steiner schools - on This Morning
LondonRefugee 2 years ago
i go to waldorf aberdeen scotland UK
lmfao fucking funny ass vid :L
harley1211 2 years ago
this video is so waldorf! rofl
your such a freak Harley! ;]
Mrs Easton is right, you should get a life :P
EllaFruitTella 2 years ago
The schools should open up, they should admit the religion/belief they are based on, and they should reject Steiner's teaching about race.Elin48, our children had a bad time at the expense of anthropopsophy at steiner school, we were deceived; I don't think expecting honesty is protesting too much.All the more so since in UK the movement is trying for state funding, and already have it in one school. Anthroposophy isn't mentioned on mant school websites or propectuses; I think that's dishonest.
LondonRefugee 2 years ago 2
LR(H)- I don't think parents give a hoot what is behind the colorworld. If someone is interested in anthroposphy they will simply pick up a book about it or wikipedia it. Even if you get every single Waldorf school in the world to host Anthroposophy Week few parents would bother to show up. And that is the sad truth. I wish we could come out more with the spiritual aspect of the human condition.
Raphael3008 2 years ago
But raphael- don't you think the reason parents don't "give a hoot" is because they are constantly led to believe a) it isn't an important feature of school life , and isn't taught to the children, and b) when they do ask about it they are continually fobbed off with how difficult it is to understand, and how it's not important for parents to bother themselves with? Considering most schools don't even mention it in their literature, and it's only gradually mentioned at the schools to parents...
LondonRefugee 2 years ago
The Steiner waldorf Schools Fellowship has a tiny mention of anthroposophy in their faq. They say it "underpins the ethos of a Steiner school" which , in my book, meeans it's a huge part of the schools - as people in the know understand- and yet it goes on to say absolutely nothing about it; it's completely laughable. Raphael is there much being done among anthroposophists to reform? To disclose the spiritual core of the movement? Or are the old school Gotheneum stalwarts digging in their heels?
LondonRefugee 2 years ago
my class seems to be pretty atheist and we're always telling the teachers waldorf is indoctrinating kids into christianity and more kids would attend if it wasnt so religious. everyone of the verses we say, including the school verse, mentions god. its bullshit but the teachers just say its an anthroposophical school and parents know it. i guess old habits die hard but they really should get with the times! :]
EllaFruitTella 2 years ago
So if anthroposophy is so unimportant to the curriculum and schools, why is it there atall? Why does the Steiner waldorf fellowship say it underlies the education? As a Steiner teacher, you have been trained by reading works predominately by Steiner.The curriculum is lead by anthroposophical beliefs; the starting points are that reincarnation is a fact, and belief in spirit worlds and karma; just because it isn't a subject taught, doesn't mean it isn't "there", the anthro "essence" & "impulse"
LondonRefugee 2 years ago 2
Just because you don't talk about sex every day with every person, it doesn't mean it isn't there, the sex "essence" & "impulse".
So, if you were honest enough, you SHOULD BE talking about sex everyday with every person... come on...
nohaycamino 2 years ago
That London person also was under the impression that Waldorf teachers are trying to promote Anthroposophy in their teaching but this is simply not true. As a Waldorf teacher I was told to leave the two things separate. We were not to try to push Anthroposophy on anyone and it was to remain separate from the curriculum. We did have weekly study groups which parents and other interested parties could attend if they so wished.
kurteous2 2 years ago
What is it about waldorf schools in America that prompt so much controversy, we don't have these issues in the UK, Germany etc.
CasparWilson 3 years ago
I'd take a guess that it's the separation of "church" and "state" over here. Although only a few of our Waldorf schools are "magnet" or "charter", those are the ones that get public funding and some atheists get freaked out over that and some misinformed fundamentalists freak out when they see that Waldorf schools use "Catholic" festivals and are teaching people to think for themselves...that's my take on it...anyone else with a thought?
alpineswissmiss 3 years ago
I think one risks huge controversy simply by asking that question. There are those issues in the UK and Germany as well, but not so rife as in the States. One should rather ask why the controversy exists anywhere. There is so much to say about that though and not enough space on here. I am an ex-Waldorf teacher and in my experience controversy arose from two things: ego-struggles and simple ignorance of the facts.
kurteous2 2 years ago
The egotism and judgment in the American Private Waldorf schools is highly unfortunate. Though I believe a Waldorf education, as Steiner envisioned (not just for rich, white, perfectly behaved children) has a rich curriculum - probably the best out there - in the first few minutes this video shows the issues with many of the educators in a Waldorf school.
Peachrainbarrel69 2 years ago
The first point (in the video) it makes is to let you know why a Waldorf school is superior to any other education and blah blah blah...were so much better than you...blah blah blah...I just hear the rumble of Steiner rolling over in his grave every time the Pharisaical attitude rears it's ugly head.
Peachrainbarrel69 2 years ago
LondonRefugee: "methinks thou doth protest too much"
Elin48 3 years ago
During this discussion Raphael-a self professed long time anthroposophist, has said the schools need to open up, and that he is trying to reform the movement from the inside. It will be a hard job- anyone who has seen the "discussion" on the forum Anthroposophy Tommorrow will see just how entrenched in madness these people are; they have discussed some of Steiner's less public beliefs, here's one from tuesday-"Further Guidelines.. about Michael's supersensible preparations for his earthmission"
LondonRefugee 3 years ago
There are several forums on the internet who have been threatened with legal action by anthroposophists eager to supress parents telling their bad experiences of steiner waldorf;they monitor the internet continually, and either pretend to be poarents themselves, and counter any criticism, or post endless links to their own websites,which do not give a clear or total picture about anthroposophy, but obscure Steiner's true belief and ommit reams of unsanitory ideas. They harras & threaten critics
LondonRefugee 3 years ago
Some children come through waldorf education unscathed and do well;the tendency is to believe thises children would do well anywhere- and suceed inspite oif their education rather than because of it.Most parewnts at Steine waldorf are totally unaware of the anthroposophical belief the entire pedagogy hinges on; the teachers and admisistratores are taught during training not to let on until - if ever- parents are spiritually ready.Anthroposophists go to great measures to prevent negative comments
LondonRefugee 3 years ago
Wonderfully well-rounded. My daughter(high school graduate of the East Bay Waldorf School in El Sobrante, CA) is now 22, going to school to become an architect, while working for a local architect 36 hours a week. Every day I am happy for the outstanding schooling she had with the Waldorf curriculum.
Elin48 3 years ago 5
Some children aren't affected much by the anthroposophy which informs the whole curriculum; their parents often don't realise they are being manipulated, that the schools are in place for purposes other than educating- they are to help the children incarnate; the schools are there to promote anthroposophy,and is seen as the Michaelic spiritual task. The children are vessels,
stages of evolution, who are directed towards spiritual truths in order to further man's spiritual developpment.
LondonRefugee 3 years ago
I have red some of your comments... wow, It looks like you have really something against Waldorf Education. I see no further point in trying to convince you of what I have experienced. You seem to be stuck with some things like reincarnation, obscure purposes, super species and so on... sorry for you. At least in this part of the world, Waldorf Education is something far from being a cult or a sect. It looks like you have written a book on this topic, let me know the name.
nohaycamino 2 years ago
I definitely experienced this for my daughter, and would have loved it for myself too....I guess that's one of the reasons I choose to send her through this schooling K - 12, graduating 2004.
Elin48 3 years ago
I like your open approach , and feel you have an upward struggle in your attempt to heave Waldorf into the arena of honesty and self examination, particularly in the area of root race hierarchy, and what the education and camphill communities are truly about. I'm glad you're "hovering above" the waldorf system... as an arch angel I pressume?I read POF/SA in part again too- the quote stands absolutely- Steiner's "freedom" has the constraints of the starting point of spiritiual worlds as reality.
tenguineas 3 years ago 2
Raphael- when the "critics" of waldorf education realise how far they have been duped by these gentle speaking apologists for occult spiritual science anthroposophy, and read the more far fetched and frankly absurd ideas of their guru Steiner, yes, they do speak far more eruditely than for instance, self professed experts on websites built to promote waldorf education; I never metioned Swartz's name- he is very clever, clever in selling his belief and pseudo religion.
tenguineas 3 years ago 2
Swartz is also clever in not mentioning anthroposophy in his promotional advertising material, and clever in gagging the voices of those who don't believe in Steiner's spiritual clairvoyant tenets. Staudenmaier for instance, knows a great deal more than many anthroposophists who try, and fail miserably, to argue with him; their spinning around in circles can only arouse pity, as he patently understands anthroposophy better than they. I'm glad to discuss with you here, and admire your honesty.
tenguineas 3 years ago 2
I don't think the critics of Waldorf are sophmoric- ironically, the critics are far far better versed in Steiner's writing, ideas and work than many of the self professed anthroposophists who try to argue against them; they are often tied in knots by critics. As for some of the websites which profess to tell the layman about "the spiritual in man and the spiritual in the universe" they are often totally incomprehensible and seemingly written by morons.Excuse me but it sometimes seems so.
tenguineas 3 years ago 2
That's an amazing comment. One moment you lament that you and legions of others are not given the proper information about waldorf- the bait and change arguement only to turn around and claim that critics are Better informed than Eugene Schwartz and others about the foundations of Waldorf. So which is it?
Raphael3008 3 years ago
Just to be clear before I am charged again with crimes unrelated to me. I am not an apologist for Waldorf international any more than Mr. T you re an apologist for COS international. I have experienced directly very damaged Waldorf schools with damaged power structures damaging families and fought much more than you or others. I am infamous as a Waldorf critic from the inside. I consider myself an experienced, informed veteran of Waldorf, neither inside nor outside but hovering above.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
In answer to the tranlation of The title Philosophy of Freedom to Philosophy of Spiritual activity, as far as I'm aware he said that "Freiheit" as he used it would be better translated as "spiritual activity."
"It is felt that people are free, with their value as individuals enhanced, if they can always form their own opinion. The problem is,
how does this opinion develop?"
Rudolf Steiner: Lecture 9, Berlin, 6th January 1914 from THE FIFTH
GOSPEL From the Akashic Record
tenguineas 3 years ago 2
My glancing through POF ( I will save you from quoting the book) just reassures me of my own interpretation that Freedom is exactly what Steiner meant to say when he said it and spiritual activity is -still- the means to attaining it. Your quote is wholly irrelevant in this context, sorry.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
Just to clarify waldorf really sucks. I went there for several years and learned nothing at all they teach nothing hell half the kids couldn't in the fifth grade. Is this what u want for your friends and family please if you know someone who is considering waldorf tell them to avoid it like a plague thank u that is all.
And don't get your hopes up raphy I have not yet begun to bash.
Newhoff 3 years ago 2
No I agree. I think it is clear that the "subject" Waldorf is unhealthy for you. I would suggest you stop visiting Waldorf sites so regularly. You will feel better. Time heals.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
(cont) and "impulses" - spiritual conscious experience - or intuition.But raphael- you may be so immersed in your Steiner world, that you may not realise that many people don't have this same starting point; don't belive in spiritual activity or clairvoyant reading of the akashik record.I realise that you do think the Waldorf schools should be open about this belief system, honest about their tenets, so families don't get drawn to something they believe is an entirely diferent education
tenguineas 3 years ago 3
The Philosophy of freedom was re named by Steiner with spiritual activity replacing freedom, but obviously it's not so simple; Steiner's interpretation of various words are different aren't they?- intuition is spiritual consciousness in his view,he wrote"Freedom must be attributed to the human will, in so far as the will realizes purely ideal intuitions." While he rejects the constraints of monotheism, he regards freedom as being wrapped up with spiritual activity, evolution of man...
tenguineas 3 years ago 4
T, you indicate "The Philosophy of freedom was re named by Steiner with spiritual activity replacing freedom, " Really?
The original title Die Philosophie der Freiheit translates as Spiritual Activity or Intutive Thinking in English but I am not sure Steiner ever translated his own books into English. I am not a Steiner scholor, but I believe it's an English translation not a re-definition. But that's just my fading memory.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
The pieces I posted in quotation marks were from this article by Ian Robinson- The Rudolf Steiner Threat To Victorian Education. Raphael- I do not have scientology as a favourite- where did you get that idea from? I think my profile page is empty. Wrong information. But I do share the computer.I'm glad we agree that Steiner schools are about moulding children for their next incarnation- you see, parents aren't told an iota of this are they? They are deceived.
tenguineas 3 years ago 3
Strange. Whenever I clicked on your name before a scientology link came up, but now it is gone. OK, I guess I was mistaken.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
Well, of all the anthroposophists it has been my misfortune to try to hold a reasonable debate with, I have to say, Raphael has been comparatively open and straight; I don't hold his beliefs against him; my objection is the lies and deceipt of the Steiner Waldorf organisation he argues for; and their race beliefs; their superioty; their belief that it is ok to lie, because their spitiual cause is so great, it trancends all else.So a few parents are cross? We still have the children to incarnate
tenguineas 3 years ago 3
It is patronising, and very common actually, to belittle people who do not believe in anthroposophy, and who think Steiner waldorf schools should be open about it; it is not "trouble making", it is trying to get open discussion and honesty. Anthroposophists are not able to deal with critics. Why is this? What are they afraid of? Way back in this discussion Raphael, you agreed that schools should be open about anthroposophy. Thankyou for being one of the few anthroposophists to actually DISCUSS.
tenguineas 3 years ago 3
Where were you when I went to that school? I think I was one of the few who stood up to their cultish ways.
Newhoff 3 years ago 2
He has no ground to stand on, just empty waldorf bull. I hope he comes back though I love arguing with these waldorf obsessed morons.
Newhoff 3 years ago 2
"what Steiner education does is to try to slot all children into the pigeon hole designed for them by Rudolf Steiner, within which there is only a small amount of room to move. Human destiny is seen as moving along pre-ordained paths and the teacher's role is to keep children on the fairly straight and relatively narrow as defined by Steiner." Ian Robinson
tenguineas 3 years ago 3
I actually agree. The human destiny we share is becoming whole with our longing for Freedom and Love. Our current modern epoch is appropriate and timely to approach this Steinarian "developmental theory". I agree that there exists an admitted Waldorf existential goal which does recognize the spiritual body, reincarnation and Christ-centered renewal. This UNIQUE perspective is by it's very nature "pigeon" hole, discriminating and paradoxically non corporal -neither Montessori nor Reggio Emilia.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
"Many people when they first hear about Steiner 'Education' are very impressed, as I was myself. The rhetoric is quite compelling and the ideas superficially attractive. However as soon as one delves behind the rhetoric into the practice, and into the mishmash of ratbag ideas that give rise to the practice, one realises that Rudolf Steiner is really bad news for most kids, and that Steiner 'Education' must be rejected if we care about children."
tenguineas 3 years ago 2
Mr.T. you quote " 'Steiner 'Education' must be rejected if we care about children." That would mean ther is an alternative. Describe the alternative. I have not seen longevity in free association theories such as Summerhills experiment, supported by william Ayers.I am sceptical of Scientology's "technology" ideas for children. Montessori lacks a congruency I find throughout Steiners colllected works. Taking Reggio videos of children to discuss later? That sounds like 1950's racial hygiene! Yikes
Raphael3008 3 years ago
I mean 1930's of course- prewar.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
Mr.T, "The rhetoric is quite compelling and the ideas superficially attractive." I disagree. The connection is non-manipulative, genuine, compelling and uncommonly common. It is an appeal to our authenticity and it is the spark of our innovative spirit. It is not by chance that the US with her pioneering spirit sees such a growth in interest for Waldorf. It is a recognition of the timeless relevance of Waldorf curriculum while preserving the childs inner freedom - the antithesis of superficial.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
"This education is essentially grounded on the recognition of the child as a spiritual being, with a varying number of incarnations behind him, who is returning at birth into the physical world, into a body that will be SLOWLY MOULDED into a usable instrument by the soul-spiritual forces he brings with him." Rudolf Steiner
Steiner Waldorf schools are in place to mould the children, to see them into their next icarnation.
Do you disagree with this?
tenguineas 3 years ago 2
I agree with the statement,
Steiner Waldorf schools are in place to mould the children, to see them into their next icarnation...
Just as you and I are preparing our future incarnations with every keystroke's moral character.
So let us keep it high in conversing.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
Raphael- if you think parentsdwho have been lied to about anthroposophy, haven't "tried to talk" to the teachers, you are either disingenious or simply naive- these people do not discuss- they have a wan spiritual glaze, but are incapable or cleverly practised in refusing to answer about anthroposophy.
You talk about freedom- in anthroposophical terms, as I'm sure you're aware, "freedom" actually means "spiritual activity"- remember- you are talking to someone who has read Steiner..
tenguineas 3 years ago 2
Is this because the book title "freedom" was renamed "spiritual activity"? I am not sure where this definition comes from. Please explain. And I agree that there is a lot of waxing anthroposophical here and there at schools as soon as one is called into account, I am not an apologist for Waldorf.I have tried to reform it for the last ten years as have a handful of others who love Waldorf. I would also "opine" perhaps that most of the criticisms on the Waldorf List are sophmoric and unhelpful.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
Raphael, your replies seem to be 1/2 to newhoff, so I'm slighly confused. Does the sentence "some children do" reply to mine about children incarnating properly? I also am amused you keep bringing up scientology- you're the one making comparisons...Also, in TYPICAL anthroposophical style- you miss the point; the schools are secretive about the central anthroposophical belief guiding them; teachers are trained with anthroposophy- and it is used for all decisions about the children.
tenguineas 3 years ago 2
I am comparing Scientology with Anthroposophy with YOU because you have Scientology as a favorite site so I suppose you are familiar with their tactics and may be able to research the subject yourself. Of course I could be mistaken. Please inform.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
Huh? what was that Raphy boy? No response?
Newhoff 3 years ago
Yes I know common response, "waldorf isn't for everyone" well really neither is a cult. I am VERY anti waldorf I agree with almost nothing they have to say. They would take you and put you in a bubble of fantasy and act like the real world didn't exist and everyone had that annoying passive agressive stance at all times.
Newhoff 3 years ago
Lets turn that phrase to "Waldorf is for everybody". Now it's become a statement of fascism. Interesting, isn't it?
Raphael3008 3 years ago
No it really doesn't and no it's not.
Newhoff 3 years ago
No it isn't is it. What is it then?
Raphael3008 3 years ago
What's your point? If you want to say something then say.
Newhoff 3 years ago
Newhoff, Clearly you have problems with aggression so I will just point out that I am replying to another poster who was actually making considerable points while you are threatening to "punch" people. Your silly posting should stop with now. I'm finished.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
When did I threaten that? Please tell me. And you seem to have security issues with your waldorf idealism because if you were so sure about it you wouldn't need to so fanaticly defend it. And YOUR silly little posting should stop with now I'm out of lies to defend my cult with I shall go home and confront the book of steiner to appease my great lord. Go sacrifice a goat or something.
Newhoff 3 years ago
Newhoff, As I said I am not an idealist- quite the opposite. I have an ivy league education, and have studied Waldorf as an educational approach since 1986. So you have missed many marks. To quote you "You mean socially demented every one who is "properly trained anthro whatever is either, so shy they won't speak, so ignorant you can't talk to them, or so arrogant you want to beat them" If there is a distinction between punch and beat I would enjoy hearing your Waldorf educated reply.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
Sorry but I'll give you my state educated reply because I have shunned waldorf teachings. There is no difference in the word but there is one in context but since you missed it I'll be happy to explain. I said you want to beat them that would be a state of mind not a threat. A threat is I will kill you and your children with sharp knives that is a threat do ya see now??
Newhoff 3 years ago
OK I guess we have a difference of opinion. Thank you for the clarification.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
yes we do, your welcome.
Newhoff 3 years ago
In stead of having a good education waldorf offers BULL CRAP.
Instead of giving you proper state required tests waldorf lets you glide through dumb as a post. I used to go to walforf school I hated every second of it. The one in NYC wasn't that bad but when I transfered to HVS I wanted to execute myself waldorf is a cult there's no two ways about it. Christ at HVS there was stuff going on worthy of the title "hate crime" but the admins there just loved trying to sweep it under the rug.
Newhoff 3 years ago
Maybe they didn't listen to you about how you felt....
Elisabeth1903 3 years ago
No need for admiration for what you condescendingly call my enthusiasm;you may have 20yrs of submersion in esoteric madness-I live in the real world, without fairies, gnomes and karma. And it's beautiful, true and free of pseudo religious poppycock. I wish you well in yours, and however fierce the need is to drag people into your spiritual haze, I hope you look long and hard at the honesty of what withholding truth means. Children are involved. It's not right. I'm not alone in thinking this
tenguineas 3 years ago
I am not trying to drag anyone into Waldorf- quite the contrary. I wish troublemakers would find a real worthy cause and fight for that instead. I think that Waldorf and more importantly anthroposophy has to be chosen freely- Philosophy of Freedom, a good read friend. I think Waldorf is positively OVERCROWDED with TV Shoppers. And the real world you live in is obviously obsessed with Waldorf, a bit I don't understand. Please do feel free to walk away. Freely.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
Please don't give me the bull about the TV shoppers and people who live a little for the love of god.
Newhoff 3 years ago
If the call to battle is against immoral organizations who deceive children, create a spiritual haze and relish religious poppycock,I could nominate no better example than the "Church" of Scientology. I think the reader need read up a bit on what that group enjoys engaging in and then return afterwards with what I believe will surely prove to be a "new perspective". But then only after a fresh reading of Steiner's Philosophy of Freedom.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
What makes scientology any worse then any other religion? Or any less moronic?
Newhoff 3 years ago
The main anthroposophical ideas within the schools are that reincarnation, spiritual worlds, karma etc are scientific fact. These things are usually regarded as religious, but anthroposophists reject the idea that it is a religion, because they believe the truth of its existance. What are the "unrealistic expectations" you talk mention? My question to you would be why hide the anthroposophy the schools are rooted in? If it was open, the schools would attract people with the same mindset.
tenguineas 3 years ago 2
How can you say the waldorf curriculum isn't based on Steiner's spiritual ideas? Who's ideas and beliefs is anthroposophy based on then? Steiner said on numerous occasions that anthroposophy would be in the schools and that this would be kept from people. Teacher training involves compulsory reading of Steiner, with barely any other pedagogy; the hope is that teachers will grow to become anthroposophists, at least step onto the path. The curriculum uses anthroposophical belief and ideas.
tenguineas 3 years ago 2
The schools can help these children incarnate and be directed towards the spiritual, the parents are superfluous( particularly since the children chose them in the first place), so just continue to sell the education as creative, holistic, gentle, tell the parents that Steiner is difficult, smile, be spiritual,and avoid all discussion about anthroposophical belief. Gag internet chat boards, babysit wikipedia, set up websites and youtube videos of knitting and watercolours, suck in more innocents
tenguineas 3 years ago
Yes the children do. In my experience the most disturbing backtalking is hardly done by those FEW in Waldorf who are properly trained in anthroposophy, but rather by those many who are quite purposely UNTRAINED. The logic there being that Steiner is so old fashioned he needed a new boost of modernity. I do not see many anthroposophists who are struggling with humility bothering to throw molitov cocktails at others.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
See what I mean you proved my point. Properly trained?? You mean socially demented every one who is "properly trained anthro whatever is either, so shy they won't speak, so ignorant you can't talk to them, or so arrogant you want to beat them.
Newhoff 3 years ago
You say these expectations, in real terms are unrealistic. No. All that has to be said, is that this education is based on the clairvoyant viusions of rudolf Steiner, who believed a host of extraordinary things, the central one being reincarnation, the existance of spirit worlds, angels, gnomes and demons, and that the education is completely and totally focussed around this. Your comment about unrealistic expectations translates as - no ordinary person could understand.Anthroposophists KNOW.
tenguineas 3 years ago 2
My children are young- they had anthroposophical decisions made about them, by a cult like religious belief system while deceiving us; if scientology had been the belief system, I would be trying to get the truth from them, but what a strange thing to say! My familiy's connection is to Steiner waldorf.So- you have to see videos which hide the central belief of Steiner waldorf, and when you're seduced, Schwartz might let on- I think you've dug yourself a hole there! Typically anthroposophical.
tenguineas 3 years ago 2
The purpose of Waldorf is for the child to become themselves. Steiner suggested that the true self has a spiritual component (so did M. Montessori but no complaint there). So in that you are correct Steiner DID base his worldview on direct experiences of the spiritual world but this is NOT the foundation of the Waldorf curriculum. That is exactly why people who have NO IDEA about Steiner can still work at Waldorf schools (and a majority do!) never mentioning a thought from Steiners knowledge.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
I am taking your criticisms one at a time to better understand what you are really trying to say. It sounds like a sort of buffe mentality you have. People are impressed or "seduced" by the nice colours and soon they are deceived by the very same people they previously admired. I suggest that those critics talk to those teachers who are deceiving them about the deception they perceive.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
These videos on youtube. including the ones by Eugene Swartz, are evangelical in their promotion of steiner waldorf- all with NO mention of the underlying religion/spiritual science. Now isn't that strange? Eugene Schwartz blocks comments on his films here too; but that isn't unusual- anthroposophists spend an inordinate ammount of energy blocking discussion about waldorf; what are they afraid of? People telling their experiences at the schools? people reading Steiner's crazy ideas and beliefs?
tenguineas 3 years ago 2
Eugene is trying to describe an experience to people who have never seen it before. I think your expectations are too unrealistic in real terms.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
Now if you had taken your criticism and directed it towards a truly dishonest religious system which tries to dehumanize while brainwashing like the Church of Scientology, well then I would agree. That COS group has a long history of cheating, lying, stealing, intimidating, blacklisting and any number of immoral actions against truth-seekers who come to them for help. Now a full throated criticism of that group would be more believable than against Waldorf, in the terms you have given here.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
But the anthroposophists continue to evade and even deny that Steiner's root race belief is racist!They defend it with spurious response, they continue to publish the works of his which are at best ridiculous and worst contemptuous.Answer one question- honestly- why don't the schools or camphill mention anthroposophy? Or reincarnation? Clairvoyance? I think you know why.Of course I'm asking for honstey- what else could you imagine my motives would be? my children had choices made about them
tenguineas 3 years ago 2
It's interesting that you think I, or any other critic, want "satisfaction" by telling the truth about anthroposohy in Steiner waldorf. The system is based on dishonesty, in the guise of spreading or opening up spirituality. It is dishonest; you wrote about "more disclosure" I think earlier- translated that "honesty" and openness about the true nature of anthroposophy, and all it's spiritual occult science beliefs.The root race ideas have to be addressed too, and not brushed away, as anthros do.
tenguineas 3 years ago 2
The root race idea is no more paradoxical than any other Steiner idea. It is commonly mentioned in order to horrify people. I think your arguments would sound more genuine if I understood what you want. I do not believe you are defending "honesty" in Waldorf schools. Or perhaps you haven't fully developed your ideas yet. I have 20 years experience of Waldorf in two different countries. While I admire your enthusiasm I don't see the relevance in real terms.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
Rapahael- anthroposohy is not available to parents UNLESS they are deemed "ready" to accept it, step onto "the path" as far as i can see; mostly, it is kept from them; not "at the first visit" as you say, but continually. Teachers are taught to deflect from interest or questions, and focus on the craft etc to distract. The anthroposophical kernel of the whole steiner curruculum is played down continually, as are the anthroposophical reasons for all decisions made in the classroom.
tenguineas 3 years ago 2
This "deemed ready" criticism I have long since discounted. Anyone even half interested in Steiner or any other subject has simply to open a book. Parents waiting to be spoon-fed the history of education for lack of genuine interest, I think not.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
I went to a Waldorf School from K-12, and I will be the first to tell you that it is not a cult. It may have its roots in anthroposophy, but this is not forced on (or even taught to) the students. I was taught to be a free thinking, loving, kind, open hearted and creative individual. I have not gone on to become a raving anthroposophist, but rather an excellent student at a well known 4 year art and design school. Each family must judge for themselves weather Waldorf is the right choice.
isaacstephen 3 years ago
yeah i always wanted to dance around a stack with a rope in my hand! this is what need to be balanced !!
deathlycucumber 3 years ago
You are wrong to assume that the people who have had bad experiences at Steiner waldorf are few- the schools and movement try to imply this is the case, but it isn't. Our family had a ollective 8/9 yrs experience, and i personally know of many many people who's times echo ours;it is actually quite extraordinary how many people sa tyhe same things about steiner school. So you are wrong to belittle this;it is a great failing not to regognise and try to do something about it; typical self deception
tenguineas 3 years ago 2
I want to understand you. You are concerned that Steiner's spiritual research is not available to parents on their first visit. And this deception has given you - and others - 8/9 years of bad experiences. I am simply asking you one question: what do YOU want to happen for you to be satisfied?
Raphael3008 3 years ago
Anthroposophists and waldorf promoters are nbot hot on "facts". Remeber, they believe gnomes and angels are real, clairvoyant visions are fact, Atlantis as a real place where man evolved( at the same time as dinasaurs), man's predecessors were spirit beings in a jelly like substance on the moon, "primitive" black races should have died out, Lucifer and Ahriman communicate through tv and computers,the heart doesn't pump blood around the body; for anthroposophists , this is all fact..it goes on..
tenguineas 3 years ago 2
Bo Dahlin, on who's research you are basing statistics about Steiner education, happens to be a member of the master's curriculum commitee at the Steiner College, and an external eurythmy examiner; the report was privately funded...(presumably by Waldorf and the anthroposophy movement), not exactly what could be called an UNBIASED study really is it? Anthroposophists and Waldorf suppoerters a continually quote "studies" which upon further examination, are usually done by themselves; cover ups
tenguineas 3 years ago
Interestingly,you are the one who mentions brainwashing, - I haven't anyway.Statistics actually show that many many waldorf students are anything buit well rounded; they often drift, and find fitting into the world difficult; transition to higher education is hard; many of out children's conbtempories cannot read at 12/13 years old. the only "good" statiustics and research are by internal anthroposphical organisations; the Dalin report being one- isn't Bo dahlin an anthroposophist?
tenguineas 3 years ago
If Waldorf schools have nothing to hide about their anthroposophical core, why don't they mention it in the prospectuses, websites and school promotional material? Why do they lie? It is this, among other aspects, such as following the visions of one supposedly charismatic leader, talk of "outsiders", fear of the modern world, different meanings for common words, friendly fishing behaviour, etc which move it towards being a cult. The fact you seem blind to this only emphasises this.
tenguineas 3 years ago
I can not find proof that students or parents are brainwashed in a cult after years of this claim. No parents are forced to stay at a school. There is no monetary gain for any individuals. There is no worship. No godhead. No leader. Is anthroposophy a spiritual movement that Waldorf is based upon? Absolutely! Is it a cult? I already suggested you search anthroposophy and scientology comparison to better understand that Waldorf qualifies as neither a religion nor as a cult. Facts are facts.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
Waldorf is an anthroposophical praxis not a seminary, so when a form is used in the class it is used for the spiritual content, not to influence the student in any single way. This fruit is found later as former Waldorf students are statistically more open minded than other former students. They have found themselves. They are consistently more well rounded, better informed, non judgemental and attractive in the job market.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
As a student it seems a stretch to say that Waldorf teaches religion or witchcraft or whatever as students are in the process, not observing it. They may way it is "weird", but that is not bad. That is why I am sceptical about the few critics who claim to be former students and base their arguments on internet surfing more than direct experience.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
It seems that many waldorf students and former Waldorf students enjoyed their time at Waldorf. This supports Bo Dahlins findings. His study is a scientific study so I am not sure why you claim it is disingenuous... The claim of some unsatisfied former students (who apparently only went to Waldorf a few years out of many years a various schools) seem to site Waldorf critic lists to support their claims.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
The whole point about anthroposophy in schools- as Steiner says- is irt will be in schools wahtever. It is COVERT. Parents are deliberately deceived. Teachers trained in UK at least, are taught to divert parents attention towards the art and craft and not discuss anthroposophy. "Steiner is difficult" seems to be the usual get out phrase. Our daughter was made to use her left hand because it is seen as a karmic wealkness; one was singled out perhaps because of thir dark roots. Root races?
tenguineas 3 years ago 3
Thank you for the conversation.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
Ahh- the Dahlin report. It was written by anthroposophists or people VERY predisposed towards anthroposophy-Professor Bo Dahlin is a member of the curriculum comittee at the Masters programme at the Rudolf Steiner College in Oslo. Professor Dahlin is also the external examiner of the Intgrated Masters Programme in the Eurythmy Masters degree." Not exactly unbiased.
Yes - interesting discussing with you. Glad to see you agree about the lack of openness.
tenguineas 3 years ago 3
I find it all fascinating and extraordinary. But the biggest scandal is the lying, deceiving and misleading that the anthroposophists do. They obviously want to cover up the occult spiritual centre of the schools and education, but only a few admit that anthroposophy is at the heart of the schools. At least you traphael, are trying to explain some of the anthroposophical ideas at the core of the education; many deny they are there atall. Schools websites rarely mention anthroposophy
tenguineas 3 years ago 2
Well this is an interesting back and forth. I agree that anthroposophy is not mentioned at Waldorf schools, as a rule.And I agree that mentioning five basic books about anthroposophy to new parents should be an open policy to help transparancy. Parents should know exactly what Waldorf is based upon. The study was done by professor Bo Dahlin from the University of Karlstad. I think the proof of the quality is in visiting Waldorf yourself.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
I do not think that many Waldorf schools are overtly anthroposophical. In fact we who venerate RS feel that Waldorf schools the world over need to get back to their roots, stop growing in mass and focus on quality, not quantity.I agree that there are many weak insecure people who work within the Waldorf movement but I do not think that reflects on Waldorf as much as personal failures. There are also mostly very enlightened people working in Waldorf schools.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
I'm also interested in the significance of the advent spiral. This symbolises the dawn of the new age- Steiner said"One spiral of the sign of Cancer indicates the end of the Atlantean culture; the other, the beginning of the Aryan culture. Our ancestors thus perceived in the heavens the outward sign for the rise of the new Aryan culture." ...
The schools don't mention this do they? They don't tell anyone it's a ritualistic occult style mystical event do they? They simply call it a "festival"
tenguineas 3 years ago 2
Raphael, I'm interested in your comment below about the Christ event. Can you explain this a bit more? Why do anthroposophists consider this to be so important? And why is St Michael so important? Is it because you are part of the spiritual Michaelic school? Who conquored the demon, (or St George who conquored the dragon?) Isn't he the leading spirit of our time?You meet him btwn this life & the next. These 300 years are where anthroposophists are serving him in order to save humanity?
tenguineas 3 years ago 2
Who conducted the study of Steiner ewaldorf students please? You have mentioned these "studie" before, but failed to say who carried them out.I know that there are many "studies" by anthroposophical organisations or those affiliated with them, which look bona fide, but are really a part of the mass publicity machine of steiner waldorf to sell themseves as something they aren't.
Have you noticed how many people have been commenting on these posts who are agreeing about this?
tenguineas 3 years ago
It is risable that you describe anthroposophy as non religious; a belief system whose central themes are reincarnation, spirit worlds,souls, the existance of angels, christ, St Michael, St John,Lucifer etc etc.The morning verses are prayers- Steiner himself said so. The fact that anthroposophists believe angels, spirit worlds,and reincarnation are scientific fact does not make it science as oppose to religion; it just makes it bonkers. What other issues are on the waldorf critics discussions?
tenguineas 3 years ago
The reader may search words "anthroposophy" and "scientology" to find a comparison between anthroposophy- NOT a religion- and a cult.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
Of course I agree that people should acquaint themselves with the Plans critics group because there is some merit to some of what is shared there. Much though comes from people with many other issues than just Waldorf if you know what I mean.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
There is a study on post graduate Waldorf students which utterly contradicts Plans/Critics image of Waldorf students as lackluster, old-fashioned, brainwashed, manipulated, victimized lambs on the alter of a hopeless cult which has as its goal not the education of the child towards freedom but the brainwashing of the family towards anthroposophy and blurring separation between church and state. I hope readers will find time to review the study for themselves.
Raphael3008 3 years ago
If you want to read more about families at Steiner waldorf school, look at the artcles on plans waldof critics- there are many stories that give a different picture from the one the school's would like you to see.
tenguineas 3 years ago
I would add my own research- based on our family's experience of Steiner school, and a great many other people.All creative activity copied, restrictive use of colour, technique, lines not allowed, all pictures look the same.This could only ever be considered "art" in Steiner circles.Don't you think these spiritual aspects of Steiner schools should be made clear in the schoool's promotional material Raphael? Rather than ignored? This is surely very deceptive; and you are propogating that.
tenguineas 3 years ago
Steiner's "science" is based entirely on his clairvoyant visions- his "reading" of the Akarshik record- and all anthroposophically based theories- waldorf education, biodynamic agriculture,anthroposophical medicine, stem from this- the clairvoyant visions of one man. This seems quite cult like to me- to follow one man's so called visions.
BTW- these "studies- who conducted them? anthroposophical organisations? That always seems to be the only people funding "studies" about Steiner schools.
tenguineas 3 years ago
I don't people mean when they say that this is creepy. Everything here seems pretty rational to me.
sarevor 3 years ago
i go to a waldorf school and love it! this, however, is just plain creepy! waldorf school is nothing like this! i swear!
hellochuckhellohello 3 years ago
i think waldorf is great even im not really into this whole anthro thing. and i must say, that this is a bit creapy. sorry my friends, no offence, but it's a bit too alternative to give the unknown people the real impression how it is like to be part of waldorf schools. it's much easier to do an exchange if you attend a waldorfschool than others, ¬hing is more succesful to learn a language than actually living in that particular country.
and i can dance my name&i did it on this school too
Freddy853 3 years ago
This school is teaching the New Age belief. The roots are Luciferean. I've done a lot of research on it. This is not a place for the true Christian.
lil1gio 3 years ago
Quote from Steiner teacher, trained Emerson College "there's quite a bit more and most is kept fairly secret from parents and kids.I don't really have time to go into it right now. But there are some disturbing things concerning racial supremity, disabilities, views of the soul... BTW I have trained as a Steiner teacher so have gone through much of the material and it was a huge shock to me."
LondonRefugee 3 years ago
Quote from Steiner teacher "There are the racist teachings which state that the different races stand at different levels of moral development. We pass through each race in our reincarnations, black being primitive, child like and at the bottom of the pile. When we reach white we have achieved the pinacle of human and moral development.Teachers are advised to tell parents as little as possible apart from the 'nice' stuff, such as creativity etc..
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LondonRefugee 3 years ago
The schools deliberately cover up the anthroposohic - it is part of the teachers training to do so..If you are told it's all about knitting and wooden gnomes, and find it is an education to pepare your child's soul for reincarnation,steiner trained teacher quote- "ready for a future time when supernatural beings manifest themselves.Teachers are trained to direct kids' attention away from the "apparent world" to the many concealed "levels of truth" in order to empower the human soul.
LondonRefugee 3 years ago