Address in Reply Debate - 21st December, 2011 - Part 7

[PiEMasteRrman]

“I know Yeshua, and I know Paulus, but who are you?”

[shinesmile77]

Russell wont be an Atheist much longer me think lol x

[rmudge64]

This reminds me of the speech of Richard Wilkinson on inequality at ted dot com.

[hujnkh]

wow, how refreshing to read comments that are well thought out and don't require swearing

[worthingSarah]

I live in the UK and was brought up in a politically red/green household. I came to the Christian faith later. This speech chimed for me at so many levels. I'm sad to say I had never heard of this gentleman, but all I can say to him is 'thank you for articulating what many Christians would like to say to politicians and those who hold power. Would you come and say it to David Cameron and George Osborne, please?'

[Jollygoodas]

Wow, I wish you could come preach at our church. This is the Jesus I know, this is the Christianity I follow, this is the one I'm seeking to call us back to. Thankyou for joining in Jesus' vision for a "Kingdom of God" where God's values of equality among God's family is the focus.

[barefootcapegirl]

@Jollygoodas My church preaches on these social justice issues so much that they neglect the other facets of Christianity! But if you put all the preaching of all the churches together I don't think anything is neglected.

[Jollygoodas]

@barefootcapegirl In the end it is more about what we do then what we say, so if we really believe that God loves us, then that will change the way we see ourselves, and if we really believe that God loves others, then that will change the way we act towards them too. If we really believe that God cares about creation, then we begin to care more about it. I think that christianity is more simple then we make it. Love God, Love others. The two biggest things.

[7777brett7777]

An atheist who speaks as a prophet...



[Blutopia1]

hehe this conversation has turned out funny. Pretty simple at its root. Russell has cleverly told a fantastic Bible story with reasonable accuracy. Then applied it 2 ideals that certainly arent biblical. Its very cleverly crafted though. A few people are doing it these days. The Occupy movement are big on it. Its about using Jesus as credibility 4 doing something wrong. Its absolute proof of ignorance towards His Character. Subtle manipulations of truth are always the most dangerous. Easy 2 miss

[dontelgbak]

Sorry, is this parliament or church?

[ILOVEPHAYZEE]

indeed JESUS is the reason for the season (: #realtalk

[slowfuse]

boring

[Alwaysbaggyjeans]

As I Christian myself I see who people have forgotten what it was all about, they think is about going to mass and confessing to God your "sins" ...They forgot Christianity is ABOUT respecting others, caring for them and not becoming a selfish leech. I've had this conversation with business people for years about how growth for the sake of growth is evil, finally someone has the b*lls to say is publicacly in a political environment, Thumbs Up to this guy!!!

[barefootcapegirl]

@Alwaysbaggyjeans Those things aren't mutually exclusive. I attend mass, confess my sins, and support the social justice values of the prophets and this speech.

[dawberevan]

This was really good work Dr Russel Norman. People can only use so much money before they are essentially wasting it. More distribution combined with more debt repayment/ investment is a helpful long-term strategy.

[onlinesid]

Communism = Christianity without God

[thescoopy]

Russel. You have more of an understanding of Christianity than most of my Christian friends!  Go Russel Go!!!

[KiwiChristian]

My problem is; If Jesus was Only a 'great moral teacher' then He was also, in the same breath, a huge liar. Jesus said clearly that He as/is God. Now what puzzles me is how people think Some of His teachers a 'great' when they, in the same breath, claim that his other teachings were a total lie.

[mk2escortvan]

@KiwiChristian Well it would be possible that he were deluded about being god, but otherwise a good person.

[KiwiChristian]

@mk2escortvan So then, I Jesus was deluded, why would anyone consider His teachings "good" or "moral"?

Would His teachings, then, simply be as arbitrary as anyone else's?

What makes a deluded-Jesus teaching better than a sane Friedrich Nietzsche teaching?

[mk2escortvan]

@KiwiChristian Because we humans can judge him for his morals. Myself, I don't think Jesus was, in fact, such a great example. The stories about him caring for other people are good. He also advised people to take no thought for tomorrow and he encouraged that guy to abandon his family in order to follow him (Jesus). Anyway, I think that humans can morally judge. We can tell that Jesus's teachings are better than Nietzsche's. cont..

[KiwiChristian]

@mk2escortvan The image of a 'moral compass' is a great illustration. The reason I think it is so good is because without there being some supernatural moral law giver, all morals are solely relative to the individual. My point is that there is no 'true north' on anyone's moral compass without a compass maker to to set the north.

If there is no God, the I can claim Hitler was a moral person or George Bush was a moral person.

sidenote: If Jesus was deluded, how we we account for His empty tomb?

[mk2escortvan]

@KiwiChristian Ok. So whether or not Jesus was god's son, we have this 'moral compass'. I'll just point out that Jesus being God's son and the question of there being a god are separate questions. About the 'compass': Another possibility is that it evolved - for a social species, living with kindness towards others benefits the whole group and makes it more productive. How do we know his tomb was empty? I think all the evidence for that is found in one book, is it not?

[KiwiChristian]

@mk2escortvan If we evolved a 'moral compass' this is further evidence that not all moral compass's have the save true value or 'same north' as a reference. Your arguments is simply one tat benefits you, you want to benefit from productivity. (FYI Nazi Germany was an extremely productive 'group') Once you visit places where extreme poverty, oppression and hunger dictate moral behavior you will quickly see ow Jesus' teachings are not so easily accepted.

[barefootcapegirl]

@KiwiChristian I don't quite understand your last point. Are hungry poor nations less moral than well-off ones like us? I'm not sure that's at all true. On the contrary, I think people tend to understand what is truly important when they are hungry. We well-off nations aren't hungry or needy and yet we oppress, extort and invade poorer nations as if we desperately needed all of their resources.

[KiwiChristian]

@barefootcapegirl You are correct, I spoke poorly. The example I should have used is those depicted in post-apocalyptic films, Mad Max 2&3 & Book of Eli. There people will kill and eat each other without thinking twice. In the most oppressed countries, people's morals and the value of human life is greatly different to the western ideals. My point was, that without a moral law giver there are no moral absolutes. In the case of the compass, there is no one to set north, its all relative.

[barefootcapegirl]

@KiwiChristian You still seem to be claiming that poor hungry oppressed countries have less value for life than Westerners do. And yet I see no evidence of this outside of fictional movies - 1 in 4 unborn children are terminated in NZ, for example. When (Western) Ancient Greece was rich it was normal to molest boys. There may be worse societies but it has nothing to do with being oppressed or non-Western.

I'm doing my honours degree at Otago Uni, mostly under Rev. Dr. James Harding.

[KiwiChristian]

@barefootcapegirl This illustration is only in context of the discussion on morals. Do you agree that without a moral law giver that there can be no moral absolutes?

[barefootcapegirl]

@KiwiChristian I do wholeheartedly agree with your point, and indeed if one looks at other cultures separated from ours in time and/or place, it's plain that some of the values we hold very dear are anything but universally held (e.g. not leaving babies to starve; not molesting children; etc). I was just disagreeing with the idea that richer and/or Western countries have better morals than others. I think one of the biggest problems Western nations have is self-righteousness.

[mk2escortvan]

@KiwiChristian And if you are going to say that that evidence (from one book) is enough, then why do you not also think that Muhammed is a (true) prophet and ascended to heaven? After all, we have evidence for that in the Koran.

[KiwiChristian]

@mk2escortvan And I would not use evidence from "one book" (I am assuming that you are referring to the Bible? Which is actually a collection of 66 books) to show that the tomb was empty, there are plenty of other sources for that.

If you would like a more detailed answer, please PM me and we can get around the 500 character limit. [lastly I am aware that using a book to claim that that book is holy is circular reasoning and is ultimately folly. This apply's to ALL sacred books, the Bible too]

[barefootcapegirl]

@mk2escortvan I'm nearly finished an honours degree in Biblical Studies and Classics and I can tell you that there is very good documentation for the empty tomb. There is usually hardly any evidence to go on for ancient events, but here we have four gospels obviously written by different people, plus Paul's letters, plus anti-Christian documents trying to explain the empty tomb, etc. And despite first glance, the gospels aren't any more biased than normal for ancient historical documents.

[KiwiChristian]

@barefootcapegirl Can you please tell me where you are sitting your honors degree and who is it under?

[mk2escortvan]

@barefootcapegirl Hi, perhaps you could pm me about some of this evidence? I'll just say: since a religion has been based on this, it would not be surprising that a lot has been written about it. That would not necessarily prove it either way. The fact that there are writings trying to explain it merely suggests that lots of people believed it, doesn't it? The four gospels were written by friends. They may be independent, but there would be some doubt about that.

[barefootcapegirl]

@mk2escortvan Paul wrote first, then Mark wrote without Paul, then Luke and Matthew used Mark (and other documents, including Q) for theirs and then John wrote from different sources entirely. And actually this is quite extraordinary that all this was written so early compared to other religious texts. You are never going to get absolute proof for an ancient event, but this is very good. The empty tomb is pretty solid because no one (incl. the Mishnah) tried to deny that it was empty.

[mk2escortvan]

@barefootcapegirl Ok. Then I guess the writings trying to explain it say that Jesus may not have been in the tomb to begin with. Is that what they say? I'd be interested to hear how these people try to explain it, and also why you think the explanations are not correct. In one of the gospels, the author says that it was one of Jesus' followers who took the body to the tomb. The Roman guard came later. But, you would expect they would check the tomb before guarding it.

[barefootcapegirl]

@mk2escortvan They say that the disciples must've stolen the body and bribed the guards (note they don't deny the presence of guards). If the gospels were identical, we'd've only picked one for the Bible. Read through their accounts of the Passion very carefully, and you'll find that they do not at all agree on minor details. This and other reasons means it doesn't look like the authors all compared notes before they wrote theirs.

[mk2escortvan]

@barefootcapegirl Ah I see. Well, it's possible - especially if the guards arrived later - perhaps they were 'encouraged' to not check the tomb. Some details differ. They still could have talked it over after the events and could have agreed what basically happened. A good few years for memories to become hazy. It is such an extra-ordinary thing to happen, that I think we should try to rule out other explanations. We would for anything else, wouldn't we?

[mk2escortvan]

@barefootcapegirl ... If not collaborate, they could have at least talked it over. I don't think I buy the independence of the gospels. They could have seen this. I'm not saying it's not possible.

[mk2escortvan]

@KiwiChristian Whether or not you think we got it from God (and I don't), you would surely have to agree that most humans posses some sort of 'moral compass'. Jesus didn't need to be god's son for him to be a moral person. And he didn't need to be god's son for people to recognise him as a good man.

[mk2escortvan]

@KiwiChristian And to answer your question: yes, I think they would be as arbitrary (or otherwise) as those of anyone else. Why do people look up to Ghandi as a good example? Why not Hitler? Because people can judge.

[mk2escortvan]

@KiwiChristian and if he were deluded, then it would not have been a lie for him to say it.

[sunonthewindow]

It's a decline in Christian values that has caused NZ's collapse. Child abuse, binge drinking, murder, legalised prostitution, rape, more theft, more corruption and greed.

[Blutopia1]

haha, always beware of an atheist using Christianity 4 political purposes. Thats recipe 4 disaster if ever there was. If ur going to use Christianity as ur argument 4 welfare u have 2 use the whole bible not just the parts that fit ur argument. We're told God wants us 2 look after orphans & widows. Everyone else is given specific responsibilities 2 take care of their family. That would save millions each year of tax payers money! If we're going 2 play the Bible card 4 sharing wealth, good luck.

[andrewkiwi100]

@Blutopia1 What part(s) of the Bible are you suggesting Russel contradicted?

[EzekielNZ]

@Blutopia1 Works both ways when people choose to forget parts of the bible so they are able to Justify their own self-centered lifestyle. Jesus's teaching was the most important in the christian faith. At least there's some one being an example of Jesus in Parliament going against the culture of the our governments.

[matamatamullet27]

great speech Russel. very well researched and presented.